IRC log of xhtml on 2008-11-12

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:42:32 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #xhtml

14:42:32 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/11/12-xhtml-irc

14:43:03 [rmerric]

rmerric has changed the topic to: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Nov/0005.html

14:43:08 [rmerric]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Nov/0005.html

14:43:23 [rmerric]

Zakim, this will be xhtml2

14:43:23 [Zakim]

ok, rmerric; I see IA_XHTML2()9:45AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes

14:43:50 [Steven]

better to use trackbot

14:43:59 [Steven]

trackbot, start telcon

14:44:01 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, make logs public

14:44:03 [trackbot]

Zakim, this will be IA_XHTML2

14:44:03 [Zakim]

ok, trackbot; I see IA_XHTML2()9:45AM scheduled to start in 1 minute

14:44:04 [trackbot]

Meeting: XHTML2 Working Group Teleconference

14:44:05 [trackbot]

Date: 12 November 2008

14:44:22 [Zakim]

IA_XHTML2()9:45AM has now started

14:44:29 [Zakim]

+Roland

14:45:16 [Zakim]

+McCarron

14:45:27 [ShaneM]

zakim, McCarron is ShaneM

14:45:27 [Zakim]

+ShaneM; got it

14:45:49 [Tina]

As mentioned I am without a functional phone due to teleco salesfellow.

14:46:08 [Roland]

Regrets: Alessio, Mark

14:46:36 [oedipus]

oedipus has joined #xhtml

14:46:54 [Steven]

zakim, dial steven-617

14:46:54 [Zakim]

ok, Steven; the call is being made

14:46:58 [Zakim]

+Steven

14:47:47 [Zakim]

+Gregory_Rosmaita

14:48:16 [oedipus]

Scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita

14:48:21 [oedipus]

ScribeNick: oedipus

14:48:30 [oedipus]

regrets: Mark_Birbeck, Alessio_Cartocci, Tina_Holmboe

14:48:43 [oedipus]

agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Nov/0005.html

14:49:02 [oedipus]

previous: http://www.w3.org/2008/11/04-xhtml-minutes.html

14:49:09 [oedipus]

rrsagent, please make minutes

14:49:09 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/12-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

14:49:20 [oedipus]

TOPIC 1: Agenda Review

14:49:42 [ShaneM]

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14:49:46 [oedipus]

RM: anything anyone wants to address specifically?

14:49:51 [ShaneM]

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14:50:02 [oedipus]

SP: did you see reqeest for review for Selectors API

14:50:15 [oedipus]

SP: fear we may not have reviewed first time around

14:50:31 [oedipus]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Nov/0004.html

14:50:42 [oedipus]

http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/selectors-api/

14:50:57 [oedipus]

quote: "As with LC #1, we explicitly request a review from the following WGs:

14:50:57 [oedipus]

CSS, HTML, Math, P&F, SVG, XHTML2 and XML Core.

14:51:22 [oedipus]

RM: relevant to us

14:51:48 [oedipus]

SP: remember Mark dismissive of this; of opinion not worth dealing with but should revisit

14:52:01 [oedipus]

RM: does it cause any difficulties or does it help us?

14:52:23 [oedipus]

SM: namespace things in it relevant to XML Events 2 and may be to CURIEs

14:52:47 [oedipus]

SP: CSS selectors api

14:52:52 [oedipus]

http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/selectors-api/

14:53:02 [oedipus]

SM: talks about DOM3 and namespaces

14:53:21 [oedipus]

SP: title of the document makes it sound more general than is -- selecting items using CSS selectors

14:53:37 [cbottoml]

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14:53:43 [oedipus]

SP: string parameter - text of CSS selector

14:54:35 [oedipus]

SM: [role=foo:bar] - how does that get mapped?

14:54:44 [oedipus]

SP: foo is any URI string?

14:54:47 [oedipus]

SM: maybe not

14:55:16 [oedipus]

SP: namespace suppport for elements, namespace support for attributes, but no namespace support for values; need to use literal prefixes

14:55:22 [oedipus]

SM: treats as token

14:56:58 [oedipus]

SP: biggest objection is that CSS Selectors designed for very specific use case - serial rendering of documents; shaped syntax of selectors: some things possible, some impossible, and some get in the way of incremental rendering; can't collect previous sibling, but following sibling because previous sibling already rendered; CSS Selectors a bad API selector -- really need something more general

14:57:37 [oedipus]

SP: that's why i think of little relevance -- decided to use XPath in XForms and XHTML2 to avoid such a problem

14:58:00 [oedipus]

RM: will someone review on our behalf and make reocommendation as to how to respond?

14:58:18 [oedipus]

SP: when does LC end?

14:58:23 [oedipus]

GJR: 12 December 2008

14:58:33 [oedipus]

SP: second last call, so shorter review

14:59:07 [oedipus]

SP: not sure if i have sufficient expertise - very much a DOM-thing

14:59:25 [oedipus]

RM: look at it from our perspective - from our PoV looks ok

14:59:46 [oedipus]

SP: anyone think could do this?

14:59:59 [oedipus]

RM: SP familiar with CSS it is based on

15:00:18 [oedipus]

SP: least interesting part of this - here is syntax over there, will do it

15:00:58 [oedipus]

ACTION: Steven - respond to LC2 call for Selectors API - 2008-11-30

15:00:58 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-20 - - respond to LC2 call for Selectors API - 2008-11-30 [on Steven Pemberton - due 2008-11-19].

15:01:19 [oedipus]

SP: due to unused vacation days will be gone most of december

15:01:59 [oedipus]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:01:59 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/12-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

15:02:43 [oedipus]

TOPIC: Transitions

15:02:56 [oedipus]

RM: 3 resolved to go to CR: CURIE, Role and Access

15:03:08 [oedipus]

SP: CURIE request sent; other 2 will be sent by end of week

15:03:12 [oedipus]

SM: sent how?

15:03:21 [oedipus]

SP: transmission requests

15:04:12 [oedipus]

RM's summary of TPAC resolutions & related stuff: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Oct/0040.html

15:04:22 [oedipus]

RM: status of XML Events 2?

15:04:51 [oedipus]

SM: updated draft on 24 October 2008 - believe that addresses everything discussed at meeting - sent out post to that effect

15:05:09 [oedipus]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Oct/0024.html

15:05:25 [oedipus]

RM: please read and review before next week

15:05:28 [Steven]

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Drafts/#xml-events2

15:05:32 [oedipus]

RM: XHTML Mime

15:05:43 [oedipus]

SM: appendix needs to be updated

15:06:10 [oedipus]

RM: in response to comments on mime document

15:06:16 [oedipus]

SM: that's my action item

15:06:29 [Steven]

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Drafts/#xhtmlmime

15:06:53 [oedipus]

SM: example doesn't match guidelines, but we knew that and will fix

15:07:29 [oedipus]

SP: never been through reissuing a note before - announced to HTC, fielded comments, and when we are done, just publish - no pub approval cycle for Note

15:07:37 [oedipus]

SM: shouldn't update until example more complete

15:08:09 [oedipus]

RM: odd thing is XHTML Media Types Second Edition, but doesn't say note

15:08:32 [oedipus]

SP: in statement - statement also goes where "Editor's Draft" is now

15:08:51 [oedipus]

SM: careful to keep editor's draft until ready to push

15:08:58 [Steven]

s/statement/status/

15:09:12 [oedipus]

RM: only thing outstanding is appendix?

15:09:14 [oedipus]

SM: yes

15:09:48 [oedipus]

SM: have an action (18) to fix appendix

15:10:13 [oedipus]

SP: when republish, are we going to consider doing PER of 1.0 without appendix C

15:10:21 [oedipus]

GJR: as long as we point to Mime Types 2008

15:10:50 [oedipus]

SP: appendix guidelines get a lot of flack as not being part of spec and just informative

15:11:08 [oedipus]

SP: olivier has problem that normative parts refer to informative appendix C

15:11:41 [oedipus]

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/tracker/actions/18

15:11:48 [oedipus]

SP: outstanding errata for 1.0?

15:12:15 [oedipus]

SM: never envisioned re-releasing 1.0

15:12:28 [oedipus]

SP: no errata logged for 1.0

15:12:57 [oedipus]

RM: seems strange not even any minor editorial nits

15:13:14 [oedipus]

SP: already Second Edition, so this would be Third Edition

15:13:29 [oedipus]

SM: include schema implementation?

15:13:32 [oedipus]

SP: why not?

15:13:44 [oedipus]

SM: don't know if trust current schema

15:14:03 [oedipus]

SP: think it was feed as DTD through a transformer and hand-tweaked

15:14:19 [oedipus]

SM: don't need to do

15:15:06 [oedipus]

ACTION: Shane - prepare 1.0 PER by removing appendix C and replace with pointer / reference to XHTML Mime

15:15:06 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-21 - - prepare 1.0 PER by removing appendix C and replace with pointer / reference to XHTML Mime [on Shane McCarron - due 2008-11-19].

15:15:24 [oedipus]

RM: should be after XHTML Mime goes to transition

15:15:42 [oedipus]

SM: a lot of fruit from XHTML Mime, so need to get that pushed

15:15:52 [oedipus]

RM: Mime critical path for all PERs on list

15:16:00 [oedipus]

SM: yes;

15:16:34 [oedipus]

SM: haven't heard anything more from melinda -- will ping her to ensure nothing else for XHTML Print

15:16:51 [oedipus]

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/tracker/actions/21

15:17:00 [oedipus]

(will annotate after meeting)

15:17:13 [oedipus]

TOPIC: Documents in Maintenance Mode

15:17:21 [oedipus]

RM: errata for XML Events need to be addressed

15:17:26 [oedipus]

SM: did it - done

15:17:40 [oedipus]

RM: 4 PERs (excluding 1.0) - where are we with those?

15:17:56 [oedipus]

RM: Basic should be issued; further dialog with Yam?

15:18:32 [oedipus]

SP: there is example near end that we didn't create - in appendix says: "here is example" "here is how would look" working on updating that with Yam directly

15:18:51 [oedipus]

RM: RDFa not keen to issue PER so soon after issuing spec

15:19:05 [oedipus]

RM: XHTML 1.1 PER status?

15:19:09 [oedipus]

SM: ready to go

15:19:18 [oedipus]

SM: Print is ready to og

15:19:32 [oedipus]

RM: all refer to Mime document?

15:19:47 [oedipus]

SM: Print does not refer to mime doc; 1.1, Basic, RDFa do

15:20:27 [oedipus]

SM: decision of RDFa TF was wait until january and then reissue and correct any errata that arise

15:20:39 [oedipus]

SM: if can get example done, Basic will be ready for PER

15:21:17 [oedipus]

SM: will get 1.0 PER together as well, but first priority is get example done in Mime document - try to get done by tomorrow - will alert group - review changes on list and sign off on it next call

15:21:28 [oedipus]

RM: no action outstanding to do example in basic

15:22:31 [oedipus]

ACTION: Steven - work with Yam on missing example for XHTML Basic - 2008-11-19

15:22:31 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-22 - - work with Yam on missing example for XHTML Basic - 2008-11-19 [on Steven Pemberton - due 2008-11-19].

15:23:11 [oedipus]

TOPIC: Open Action Review

15:23:15 [Roland]

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/tracker/actions/open

15:23:16 [oedipus]

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/tracker/agenda

15:23:23 [oedipus]

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/tracker/actions/open

15:24:07 [oedipus]

RM: action 4?

15:24:12 [oedipus]

SM: checking status now

15:24:20 [oedipus]

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/tracker/actions/4

15:26:28 [oedipus]

RM: role action on GJR

15:26:36 [oedipus]

GJR: still need to pin down AlG's response

15:26:46 [oedipus]

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/tracker/actions/5

15:27:26 [oedipus]

RM: Script Implement Attribute model (15) http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/tracker/actions/15

15:27:33 [oedipus]

SM: working on it

15:27:46 [oedipus]

RM: IDREF change http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/tracker/actions/16

15:27:50 [oedipus]

SM: in process

15:29:01 [oedipus]

SM: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/tracker/actions/19 - origins?

15:29:30 [Steven]

close action-19

15:29:31 [trackbot]

ACTION-19 craft text to about transformation of XHTML to HTML for the XHTMLMIME draft closed

15:29:35 [oedipus]

RM: processor -- moved into tracker list - discussed at phone call of 15 june; put in and ripped out during F2F so think is close

15:30:21 [oedipus]

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/tracker/agenda

15:30:32 [oedipus]

RM: lot of historical actions still in agenda not in tracker

15:30:40 [oedipus]

RM: review and remove or move to tracker

15:31:01 [oedipus]

ACTION: Shane to start implementing xml schema for xhtml 2.0

15:31:01 [oedipus]

[recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/08/08-xhtml-minutes.html#action01]

15:31:02 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-23 - Start implementing xml schema for xhtml 2.0 [on Shane McCarron - due 2008-11-19].

15:31:14 [oedipus]

drop action 4

15:31:30 [oedipus]

rrsagent, drop action-23

15:31:30 [RRSAgent]

I'm logging. I don't understand 'drop action-23', oedipus. Try /msg RRSAgent help

15:31:59 [oedipus]

RM: move into tracker

15:32:19 [oedipus]

new action on Shane: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/tracker/actions/23

15:32:30 [oedipus]

SP: speak to mark

15:32:34 [oedipus]

RM: not sure how been changed

15:32:44 [oedipus]

SP: Mark done a lot of modularization

15:32:48 [oedipus]

RM: but not in spec

15:33:21 [oedipus]

SP: not XHTML schema, but XForms; think Mark has one that implements ???

15:33:38 [oedipus]

RM: ACTION: Shane to split 8024 into two issues.

15:33:49 [oedipus]

http://www.w3.org/2007/12/12-xhtml-minutes.html#action04

15:34:05 [oedipus]

RM: next action on steven redundant

15:34:22 [oedipus]

RM: from f2f to venice: Steven to add text to embedding module saying how it works

15:34:39 [oedipus]

ACTION: Steven to add text to embedding module saying how it works

15:34:41 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-24 - Add text to embedding module saying how it works [on Steven Pemberton - due 2008-11-19].

15:35:01 [oedipus]

SM: action on 8024 done

15:35:09 [oedipus]

RM: do we need 4 types of list in XHTML2

15:35:23 [oedipus]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html/2008May/0005.html

15:36:21 [oedipus]

SP: everlasting discussion - where "magic" of semantics resides: element or attribute names; better to have list titled UL with nexted LIs - could say 4 different types of list (UL,OL,DL)

15:36:36 [oedipus]

SM: DL only different in that has user defined label

15:36:48 [oedipus]

GJR: aria terms "ownedby"

15:37:00 [oedipus]

SM: why break compatibility with world?

15:37:06 [oedipus]

RM: created new one with navigation list

15:37:40 [oedipus]

SP: with addition of role, someone said, now we have role with value of navigation, perhaps navigation list in XHTML2 superfluous

15:37:55 [oedipus]

SM: nav list already has implicit role

15:38:08 [oedipus]

SP: navigation list the one on the chopping block now that we have role

15:38:26 [oedipus]

SM: special behavioral semantics associated with navigation lists

15:39:06 [oedipus]

SP: meant to identify certain types of lists; could represent in diff ways on diff devices; if no room for navigation bar, could do as drop down list, which would be a navigation list; circumstantial usage

15:39:18 [oedipus]

SP: if base semantics on role, don't need extra syntax

15:39:59 [oedipus]

SM: suggestion is get rid of navigation list in XHTML2 because role makes redundant

15:40:52 [oedipus]

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2007/ED-xhtml2-20071024/mod-list.html#edef_list_nl

15:41:11 [oedipus]

proposed RESOLVED: review need for nl now that Role exists

15:41:42 [oedipus]

RESOLVED: review need for nl now that Role exists and prepare for discussion at next week's meeting

15:41:49 [oedipus]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:41:49 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/12-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

15:42:06 [oedipus]

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2007/ED-xhtml2-20071024/mod-list.html#s_listmodule

15:42:30 [oedipus]

RM: Access + RDFa into XHTML2 - still open?

15:42:33 [oedipus]

SM: open

15:42:53 [oedipus]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes.html#action05

15:43:09 [oedipus]

SM: from 31 may 2005

15:43:19 [oedipus]

SM: may be moot

15:43:45 [oedipus]

SM: Media Type and how source type or href type are resolved during requests for content-negotiation

15:44:41 [oedipus]

SP: a double-asterisk says will accept anything - don't know how can expand asterisks

15:44:49 [oedipus]

SM: doesn't make sense to me, either

15:45:22 [oedipus]

RM: close 7800 and 7099 in issue tracking?

15:45:36 [oedipus]

s/7099/7999

15:45:52 [oedipus]

SM: can change to rejected because request should still say asterisk

15:46:31 [oedipus]

RM: action on steven to devote brain cycles to solving quality values question

15:46:45 [oedipus]

SP: needs more thought - clarify what asterisk means

15:46:59 [oedipus]

ADJOURN

15:47:16 [oedipus]

RM: XHTML2 development topic for next week

15:47:28 [Zakim]

-ShaneM

15:47:37 [Tina]

oedipus: * ;)

15:47:45 [Zakim]

-Steven

15:47:46 [Zakim]

-Roland

15:47:46 [oedipus]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:47:46 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/12-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

15:47:51 [Zakim]

-Gregory_Rosmaita

15:47:52 [Zakim]

IA_XHTML2()9:45AM has ended

15:47:53 [Zakim]

Attendees were Roland, ShaneM, Steven, Gregory_Rosmaita

15:48:25 [oedipus]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:48:25 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/12-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

15:48:36 [oedipus]

chair: Roland_Merrick

15:48:39 [oedipus]

rrsagent, make minutes

15:48:39 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/12-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

15:52:22 [Roland]

Roland has left #xhtml

15:52:42 [oedipus]

rrsagent, please part

15:52:42 [RRSAgent]

I see 5 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/12-xhtml-actions.rdf :

15:52:42 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Steven - respond to LC2 call for Selectors API - 2008-11-30 [1]

15:52:42 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/12-xhtml-irc#T15-00-58

15:52:42 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Shane - prepare 1.0 PER by removing appendix C and replace with pointer / reference to XHTML Mime [2]

15:52:42 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/12-xhtml-irc#T15-15-06

15:52:42 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Steven - work with Yam on missing example for XHTML Basic - 2008-11-19 [3]

15:52:42 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/12-xhtml-irc#T15-22-31

15:52:42 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Shane to start implementing xml schema for xhtml 2.0 [4]

15:52:42 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/12-xhtml-irc#T15-31-01

15:52:42 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Steven to add text to embedding module saying how it works [5]

15:52:42 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/12-xhtml-irc#T15-34-39