13:53:51 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #egov
13:53:51 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/11/12-egov-irc
13:53:57 <josema> zakim, this will be egov
13:53:57 <Zakim> ok, josema; I see T&S_EGOV()9:00AM scheduled to start in 7 minutes
13:54:21 <kjetil> Zakim, what is the code?
13:54:21 <Zakim> the conference code is 3468 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), kjetil
13:54:43 <kjetil> kjetil has changed the topic to: next Group call: 12 Nov; 14:00Z || the conference code is 3468 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152)
14:00:43 <josema> trackbot, start telcon
14:00:45 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:00:47 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be EGOV
14:00:47 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see T&S_EGOV()9:00AM scheduled to start now
14:00:48 <trackbot> Meeting: eGovernment Interest Group Teleconference
14:00:48 <trackbot> Date: 12 November 2008
14:00:54 <Zakim> T&S_EGOV()9:00AM has now started
14:01:01 <Zakim> + +1.509.464.aaaa
14:01:07 <josema> regrets: martin, jeff
14:01:15 <Owen> Owen has joined #egov
14:01:17 <Zakim> +Josema
14:01:27 <josema> zakim, drop josema
14:01:27 <Zakim> Josema is being disconnected
14:01:29 <Zakim> -Josema
14:01:45 <Zakim> +Josema
14:02:07 <john> john has joined #eGov
14:02:32 <josema> zakim, aaaa is rachel
14:02:32 <Zakim> +rachel; got it
14:02:59 <Zakim> + +1.202.731.aabb
14:03:27 <josema> zakim, aabb is kevin
14:03:27 <Zakim> +kevin; got it
14:03:37 <Zakim> + +1.301.455.aacc
14:03:48 <Zakim> + +0203334aadd
14:04:06 <josema> zakim, aadd is john
14:04:06 <Zakim> +john; got it
14:05:10 <josema> zakim, aadd is owen
14:05:10 <Zakim> sorry, josema, I do not recognize a party named 'aadd'
14:05:27 <josema> zakim, aaacc is owen
14:05:27 <Zakim> sorry, josema, I do not recognize a party named 'aaacc'
14:05:31 <josema> zakim, aacc is owen
14:05:31 <Zakim> +owen; got it
14:05:36 <josema> zakim, who's here?
14:05:36 <Zakim> On the phone I see rachel, Josema, kevin, owen, john
14:05:38 <Zakim> On IRC I see john, Owen, RRSAgent, Zakim, josema, darobin, kjetil, trackbot
14:06:07 <josema> agenda+ appoint scribe
14:06:13 <josema> agenda+ agenda adjustments
14:06:17 <josema> agenda+ intros
14:06:23 <josema> agenda+ review of open actions
14:06:30 <josema> agenda+ review of topic areas
14:06:35 <josema> agenda+ next steps
14:06:39 <josema> agenda+ next meeting
14:06:42 <josema> agenda?
14:07:44 <Zakim> +??P8
14:07:58 <kjetil> Zakim, ??P8 is me
14:07:58 <Zakim> +kjetil; got it
14:08:17 <josema> zakim, move to next agendum
14:08:17 <Zakim> agendum 1. "appoint scribe" taken up [from josema]
14:08:25 <kjetil> Zakim, mute me
14:08:25 <Zakim> kjetil should now be muted
14:08:29 <josema> scribe: josema
14:08:38 <josema> [usual one I guess]
14:08:53 <Rinke> Rinke has joined #egov
14:09:51 <josema> john: thanks jose
14:09:55 <josema> zakim, move to next agendum
14:09:55 <Zakim> agendum 2. "agenda adjustments" taken up [from josema]
14:10:07 <kjetil> q+
14:10:21 <kjetil> ack me
14:10:45 <josema> john: recaps
14:10:46 <josema> http://www.w3.org/mid/88A6AFA61447AC4AB9F280FC6747F908117650B2@na-exch1.in.tna.local
14:10:49 <kevin> kevin has joined #egov
14:11:28 <josema> kjetil: can we add current discussion on the list about use cases?
14:11:40 <Tom> Tom has joined #egov
14:11:44 <josema> kevin: let's do before next steps but after topic areas
14:11:45 <kjetil> Zakim: mute me
14:11:47 <josema> john: ok
14:11:52 <kjetil> Zakim, mute me
14:11:52 <Zakim> kjetil should now be muted
14:12:06 <josema> zakim, move to next agendum
14:12:06 <Zakim> agendum 3. "intros" taken up [from josema]
14:12:13 <josema> zakim, who's here?
14:12:13 <Zakim> On the phone I see rachel, Josema, kevin, owen, john, kjetil (muted)
14:12:14 <Zakim> On IRC I see Tom, kevin, Rinke, john, Owen, RRSAgent, Zakim, josema, darobin, kjetil, trackbot
14:12:25 <josema> john: I think nobody new, right?
14:12:33 <josema> [nothing heard]
14:12:58 <josema> zakim, move to next agendum
14:12:58 <Zakim> agendum 3 was just opened, josema
14:12:59 <Zakim> +Rinke
14:13:05 <Tom> zakim, Rinke is me
14:13:05 <Zakim> +Tom; got it
14:13:15 <josema> zakim, move to next agendum
14:13:15 <Zakim> agendum 4. "review of open actions" taken up [from josema]
14:13:17 <josema> http://www.w3.org/2007/eGov/IG/track/actions/open
14:14:11 <josema> [agenda at http://www.w3.org/mid/88A6AFA61447AC4AB9F280FC6747F908117650B2@na-exch1.in.tna.local]
14:14:17 <josema> zakim, close ACTION-35
14:14:17 <Zakim> I don't understand 'close ACTION-35', josema
14:14:26 <josema> trackbot, close ACTION-35
14:14:26 <trackbot> ACTION-35 Will prepare agenda and circulate to call pparticipants closed
14:14:55 <john> q?
14:15:22 <josema> ACTION-3 and ACTION-12 not pressing
14:15:52 <josema> john: on ACTION-14
14:16:11 <josema> ...how we could present to organizations how they could present to
14:16:35 <kjetil> q+ to say something open standards
14:16:42 <josema> ...decision makers the benefit of joining
14:16:46 <josema> q?
14:17:48 <john> ack kjetil
14:17:49 <Zakim> kjetil, you wanted to say something open standards
14:18:25 <josema> kevin: in this time of economic crisis, we should try to find a way to engage more people, look more closely into the benefits
14:18:46 <josema> kjetil: engage through open standards
14:19:10 <josema> kevin: in my experience govs use the "wait and see" approach
14:19:30 <josema> ...we need to convince them to participate in what we are doing
14:19:52 <josema> john: for a government department Membership fee is expensive ??
14:20:02 <kjetil> Zakim, mute me
14:20:02 <Zakim> kjetil should now be muted
14:20:25 <josema> ...need to "sell" the way we work and the level of conversations we have
14:20:45 <josema> s/expensive ??/not expensive
14:21:04 <josema> ...compared to other expenditures, the ROI is very good
14:21:33 <josema> ...coming back to the action, I'll post something to the Group on how we did it
14:21:55 <josema> ...how we achieved it, how we showed this is pretty low cost
14:24:10 <josema> josema: what about ACTION-30?
14:24:14 <kjetil> http://www.w3.org/2007/eGov/IG/track/actions/30
14:24:53 <josema> john: draft position paper to tell the workshop we are finding some issues
14:25:02 <josema> ...on governments using social media
14:25:36 <josema> ->http://www.w3.org/2008/09/msnws/ W3C Workshop on the Future of Social Networking
14:25:36 <josema> Call for Participation
14:26:11 <josema> [deadline for position papers seems to be 20 Nov]
14:26:31 <josema> ...any additional input?
14:27:03 <josema> kevin: discussion last week, especially with Ari about this, related to TF2
14:27:20 <josema> rachel: I have a couple things I could contribute
14:27:38 <josema> ...on social media providers building apps for gov ??
14:27:54 <josema> kevin: are you in touch with Michelle Springer (LoC)?
14:27:57 <josema> rachel: yes
14:28:12 <josema> ...couple agencies negotiating individually
14:28:30 <josema> ...but we are working on some generic framework/agreement for agencies
14:28:31 <john> q?
14:28:48 <josema> ...best practices that we could replicate trough providers
14:28:58 <josema> ...working on example agreement we could share
14:29:18 <josema> john: my responsibility is to manage Crown copyright
14:29:32 <josema> ...some videos posted to YouTube, need to look into that
14:29:48 <josema> ...now it's possible to do that
14:30:06 <josema> ...eg. Justice doing this and building Wordpress-based Web site
14:30:22 <josema> ...integrating this plus images they archive on Flickr, etc.
14:30:36 <josema> ...audience is journalists
14:30:48 <josema> s/audience/target audience
14:31:13 <josema> ...also National Archives encouraging people to post to Flickr
14:31:25 <josema> ...eg. paper documents
14:31:39 <josema> ...some copyright issues to be solved, but once done, powerful stuff
14:31:46 <josema> ...we've just started last week
14:32:08 <josema> kevin: reference point, LoC, you all probably remember Commons
14:32:12 <john> q?
14:32:25 <josema> ...project with Flickr, tremendous partcipation
14:32:42 <josema> s/partcipation/participation
14:32:50 <josema> john: we actually use LoC example
14:33:12 <josema> ...much easier to show when someone already started
14:33:37 <josema> ...understood as not so risky
14:33:54 <josema> john: I'll post something a bit later wrt the paper
14:34:06 <josema> ...please rachel do same if possible within the next 24 hours
14:34:26 <josema> ...I take responsibility of putting it together, a draft we can submit
14:34:45 <josema> agenda?
14:35:19 <Owen> Owen has joined #egov
14:35:46 <josema> agenda+ structure/submission of use cases
14:35:48 <josema> agenda?
14:35:56 <john> q?
14:36:14 <josema> zakim, take up agendum 8
14:36:14 <Zakim> agendum 8. "structure/submission of use cases" taken up [from josema]
14:36:23 <kjetil> Zakim,  unmute me
14:36:23 <Zakim> kjetil should no longer be muted
14:36:43 <josema> kjetil: discussion on how to submit use cases
14:37:05 <josema> ...started with me submitting one on "Semantic My Page"
14:37:44 <josema> ->http://www.w3.org/2007/eGov/IG/wiki/Use_Case_Semantic_MyPage Use Case:"Semantic My Page"
14:38:18 <kjetil> darobin,  are you on the call?
14:38:22 <john> q?
14:38:24 <Zakim> -Josema
14:38:39 <Zakim> +Josema
14:39:21 <josema> ...jose mentioned SWEO, also POWDER and EXI prior experience, which is different from SWEO
14:39:43 <josema> ...it's important for the Group to work around use cases that people will commit to write
14:39:57 <josema> ...not just those that look appealing to some
14:40:19 <john> q?
14:40:35 <josema> s/SWEO, /SWEO, me
14:40:57 <josema> john: developing use cases in topic areas is what I believe we should be doing
14:41:14 <josema> ...if I understand you right, you propose to add an extra step to filter them?
14:41:43 <josema> kjetil: how narrow are the topic areas? how people in the Group feel about them?
14:42:16 <josema> john: I think it gives a pretty clear idea of where we are heading to
14:42:37 <josema> ...conclusion at the F2F was that use cases should exemplify those to capture
14:42:43 <josema> ...government requirements
14:42:58 <josema> ...they are fairly broad, maybe quite government centric
14:43:13 <josema> kjetil: should they be even more use case driven?
14:43:27 <john> q?
14:43:43 <josema> ...should we try to go beyond that and think how governments should work in the future?
14:44:02 <josema> john: do you mean what might be possible in five years time?
14:44:23 <josema> ...or what we should improve from now in the next five years?
14:44:29 <josema> kjetil: good observation
14:45:16 <josema> ...I think that being use case driven we should be able to narrow the scope more
14:45:39 <josema> ...could help us in deciding what kind of focus we want
14:46:05 <josema> john: for me right now, it's clear that we need to document the topic areas
14:46:16 <john> q?
14:46:19 <josema> ...we already have, that would mean we have captured *something*
14:46:25 <josema> kevin: +1
14:46:41 <josema> ...we need to focus on the ones we have, build use cases and then proceed forward
14:47:00 <kjetil> Zakim,  who is noisy?
14:47:10 <Zakim> kjetil, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: kevin (4%), kjetil (50%)
14:47:30 <josema> kjetil: can people agree on the progress?
14:47:39 <josema> ...on the model for use case collection?
14:48:00 <josema> ...a distillation of things we can build consensus around and not verbatim copy of the use cases?
14:48:11 <john> q?
14:48:35 <josema> john: we have to do more that just capture them, I agree with that
14:49:04 <john> ack darobin
14:50:49 <josema> kjetil: we need to make sure that we don't get out of scope
14:50:51 <john> q?
14:51:01 <josema> ...avoid things on the use cases that nobody will work on ??
14:51:06 <josema> john: +1
14:51:09 <josema> kevin: +1
14:51:30 <john> ack kevin
14:52:04 <josema> john: I think is important for business interest from my organization to identify some of the things
14:52:10 <Zakim> -rachel
14:52:11 <josema> ...we have been talking about
14:52:17 <josema> [rachel leaves call]
14:52:43 <kjetil> Zakim,  mute me
14:52:43 <Zakim> kjetil should now be muted
14:52:54 <josema> kjetil: we are in brainstorming mode for now, we should try not to prevent people to brainstorm yet ???
14:52:56 <josema> agenda?
14:53:04 <josema> zakim, take up agendum 5
14:53:04 <Zakim> agendum 5. "review of topic areas" taken up [from josema]
14:53:47 <josema> john: we structured these in terms of TF work
14:53:53 <josema> [        5.1 Taskforce 1
14:53:54 <josema>                 Semantic Interoperability
14:53:54 <josema>                 Persistent URIs
14:53:54 <josema>                 Identification + Authentication
14:53:54 <josema>                 Digital Preservation + Authenticity
14:53:55 <josema>                 Temporal Data]
14:54:04 <josema> zakim, who's here?
14:54:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see Josema, kevin, owen, john, kjetil (muted), Tom
14:54:05 <Zakim> On IRC I see Owen, Tom, kevin, Rinke, john, RRSAgent, Zakim, josema, darobin, kjetil, trackbot
14:54:08 <kjetil> s/ to brainstorm yet ???/ from brainstorming, but we need to chop down to limit the scope for the Note/
14:54:37 <josema> john: I'd like to hear opinions from those on the call about the structure
14:55:30 <josema> ...if you believe all of the above fit in TF1 or not
14:57:07 <josema> I've added "13.Multi channel delivery" to http://www.w3.org/2007/eGov/IG/wiki/Use_Cases#topics , still not sure about the opinion of the Chairs/Group if that was really missing
14:58:04 <john> q?
14:58:10 <kjetil> q+
14:58:15 <josema> q?
14:58:18 <john> ack kjetil
14:58:36 <josema> kjetil: I think it looks good but don't think it should be set in stone
14:58:44 <josema> ...until we produce the note
14:59:03 <josema> john: you mean we should allow topic areas to flow between TFs?
14:59:20 <josema> kjetil: yes, once published the use cases note it should be fairly strict
15:00:00 <kjetil> Zakim,  mute me
15:00:00 <Zakim> kjetil should now be muted
15:01:31 <josema> josema: two questions: is 13 really missing or not? and has TF coordinators agreed on the distribution of use cases, namely, do they have resources to commit?
15:01:49 <kevin> yes
15:01:54 <josema> s/has/have
15:02:05 <kevin> they each mentioned that they have the resources
15:03:07 <josema> great news :)
15:03:11 <josema> 13?
15:03:47 <josema> john: I don't recall us talking about this at the Chairs meeting
15:03:51 <josema> kevin: me neither
15:03:54 <josema> opinion?
15:04:01 <josema> I can take it!
15:04:03 <josema> :)
15:05:38 <josema> john: we may deal with 13 as well as 4 and 6 ?
15:06:10 <josema> ...postponing them for now
15:06:22 <Zakim> -Tom
15:06:40 <josema> ...unless someone could take any and move them forward at any point in time
15:06:53 <josema> [rinke, tom leave call]
15:07:38 <josema> kevin: we could send a message to the list and see if someone is interested in going forward ??
15:07:41 <josema> john_ good idea
15:07:48 <josema> s/john_/john:
15:08:36 <josema> ACTION john to post and ask around about 4, 6, 13
15:08:36 <trackbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - john
15:08:36 <trackbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. jwonderl, jsherida)
15:08:43 <josema> ACTION jsherida to post and ask around about 4, 6, 13
15:08:43 <trackbot> Created ACTION-36 - Post and ask around about 4, 6, 13 [on John Sheridan - due 2008-11-19].
15:09:34 <josema> john: let's review the topic areas aligned with TF2
15:09:40 <josema> [                Performance Data + Citizen Choice
15:09:41 <josema>                 What Data? How does the government decide?
15:09:41 <josema>                 Participation in Social Media; what are the rules ?]
15:10:13 <josema> john: any comment about those three or their relation to TF2?
15:10:30 <josema> [none heard]
15:10:49 <josema> john: an observation on the issue of performance data
15:11:13 <josema> ...a colleague of mine asked recently people if they use decision support tools
15:11:32 <josema> ...eg tripadvisor to plan a holiday: majority said "yes"
15:11:51 <josema> ...same question on using public services, nobody said "yes"
15:12:19 <john> q?
15:12:25 <josema> ...of course, to be able to do that, eg. "holidays were good", "restaurant was good" you need some performance data
15:12:48 <josema> john: moving to TF3
15:13:06 <josema> [Data Aggregation
15:13:06 <josema>                 Your Web Site is your API]
15:13:37 <josema> john: I know that "Your Web Site is your API" is something that Oscar is keen on taking on
15:14:06 <josema> kevin: there was a discussion on the Chairs call with the connection between TF3 and TF1
15:14:26 <josema> ...on some of this, they agreed on talking to each other, find out where's the overlap
15:14:29 <josema> ...then proceed
15:14:32 <john> q?
15:15:23 <josema> agenda?
15:15:34 <josema> zakim, close agendum 4
15:15:34 <Zakim> agendum 4, review of open actions, closed
15:15:35 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:15:36 <Zakim> 5. review of topic areas [from josema]
15:15:48 <josema> zakim, close agendum 5
15:15:48 <Zakim> agendum 5, review of topic areas, closed
15:15:49 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:15:50 <josema> zakim, close agendum 8
15:15:50 <Zakim> 6. next steps [from josema]
15:15:51 <Zakim> agendum 8, structure/submission of use cases, closed
15:15:52 <josema> agenda?
15:15:52 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:15:53 <Zakim> 6. next steps [from josema]
15:17:03 <josema> john: next steps, we encouraged the TF coordinators to go ahead, take some actions *soon*
15:17:21 <josema> kevin: agree, if not we'll be distracted because of the holidays
15:17:40 <josema> john: hopefully, we'll have some work to review on the next Group call
15:18:00 <josema> ...so next step is get done existing actions
15:18:40 <josema> kevin: I'll talk to TF coordinators to have this going
15:19:00 <josema> john: so you'll check if something done by them during the last week
15:19:26 <josema> ...and then back to existing actions
15:19:28 <josema> ??
15:20:23 <josema> kevin: will also talk to tanya, randeep wrt spring workshop ???
15:20:46 <josema> john: not much more to say, just energize the Group, please go ahead
15:20:53 <josema> kevin: +1
15:20:58 <josema> move to next agendum
15:20:58 <Zakim> agendum 6. "next steps" taken up [from josema]
15:21:03 <josema> move to next agendum
15:21:03 <Zakim> agendum 6 was just opened, josema
15:21:10 <josema> zakim, close agendum 6
15:21:10 <Zakim> agendum 6, next steps, closed
15:21:11 <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
15:21:12 <Zakim> 7. next meeting [from josema]
15:21:13 <josema> move to next agendum
15:21:13 <Zakim> agendum 7. "next meeting" taken up [from josema]
15:21:35 <josema> john: next meeting: 26 Nov, 12:00Z
15:22:06 <josema> kevin: it's thanksgiving week in the US, people in the government usually drop off completely that week
15:23:09 <josema> ...we can leave the date as is and query the Group later to see
15:23:11 <josema> john: +1
15:23:19 <josema> ...so let's stick to the 26th
15:25:16 <josema> ...I expect similar agenda structure
15:25:28 <josema> ...anything else before we adjounr?
15:25:38 <josema> s/adjounr/adjourn
15:26:02 <josema> [ADJOURNED]
15:26:03 <Zakim> -kjetil
15:26:06 <Zakim> -owen
15:26:08 <Zakim> -kevin
15:26:24 <Zakim> -john
15:26:25 <kevin> thank you all
15:26:35 <josema> rrsagent, draf minutes
15:26:35 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'draf minutes', josema.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
15:26:38 <josema> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:26:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/12-egov-minutes.html josema
15:26:46 <josema> zakim, list attendants
15:26:46 <Zakim> I don't understand 'list attendants', josema
15:26:52 <josema> rrsagent, list attendants
15:26:52 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'list attendants', josema.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
15:27:25 <josema> list attendees
15:27:31 <josema> zakim, list attendees
15:27:31 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been +1.509.464.aaaa, Josema, rachel, +1.202.731.aabb, kevin, +1.301.455.aacc, +0203334aadd, john, owen, kjetil, Tom
15:29:27 <josema> present: kevin. john, rachel, owen, kjetil, jose, tom, rinke
15:29:34 <josema> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:29:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/12-egov-minutes.html josema
15:30:03 <josema> chair: john, kevin
15:30:07 <josema> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:30:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/12-egov-minutes.html josema
15:30:13 <Zakim> -Josema
15:30:14 <Zakim> T&S_EGOV()9:00AM has ended
15:30:16 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.509.464.aaaa, Josema, rachel, +1.202.731.aabb, kevin, +1.301.455.aacc, +0203334aadd, john, owen, kjetil, Tom
15:49:20 <Zakim> Zakim has left #egov
16:18:08 <josema> rrsagent, bye
16:18:08 <RRSAgent> I see no action items