15:53:02 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rif
15:53:02 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/11/11-rif-irc
15:53:12 <ChrisW> zakim, this will be rif
15:53:12 <Zakim> ok, ChrisW; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 7 minutes
15:53:35 <ChrisW> Meeting: RIF Telecon 11-Nov-08
15:53:43 <ChrisW> Chair: Christian de Sainte-Marie
15:54:22 <ChrisW> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Nov/0029.html
15:54:44 <ChrisW> ChrisW has changed the topic to: 11 Nov RIF Telecon Agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Nov/0029.html
15:54:56 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
15:54:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/11-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
15:55:23 <ChrisW> zakim, clear agenda
15:55:23 <Zakim> agenda cleared
15:55:28 <ChrisW> agenda+ Admin
15:55:33 <ChrisW> Agenda+ Liason
15:55:39 <ChrisW> Agenda+ Public comments
15:55:45 <ChrisW> Agenda+ Action review
15:55:52 <ChrisW> Agenda+ rdf:text
15:55:57 <ChrisW> Agenda+ PRD
15:56:01 <ChrisW> Agenda+ UCR
15:56:05 <ChrisW> Agenda+ DTB
15:56:11 <ChrisW> Agenda+ PICK SCRIBE
15:56:16 <ChrisW> Agenda+ AOB
15:57:35 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make logs public 
15:57:52 <Harold> Harold has joined #rif
16:00:29 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
16:00:31 <Zakim> + +0122427aaaa
16:00:33 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
16:00:34 <Zakim> Attendees were +0122427aaaa
16:00:39 <DaveReynolds> DaveReynolds has joined #rif
16:01:36 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
16:01:37 <Zakim> +??P44
16:01:41 <Zakim> +Harold
16:01:42 <Zakim> -Harold
16:01:42 <Zakim> +Harold
16:01:48 <StuartTaylor> StuartTaylor has joined #rif
16:02:08 <Stella> Stella has joined #rif
16:02:25 <josb> josb has joined #rif
16:02:35 <Zakim> +josb
16:02:52 <Zakim> + +0122427aaaa
16:03:02 <Zakim> +[IBM]
16:03:07 <Stella> zakim, ibm is temporarily me
16:03:07 <Zakim> +Stella; got it
16:03:18 <StuartTaylor> zakim, +0122427aaaa is me
16:03:18 <Zakim> +StuartTaylor; got it
16:03:24 <Zakim> +Sandro
16:03:25 <Zakim> +??P55
16:03:26 <Zakim> + +1.914.784.aabb
16:03:31 <ChrisW> zakim, aabb is me
16:03:31 <Zakim> +ChrisW; got it
16:04:18 <ChrisW> Scribe: Harold
16:04:20 <AxelPolleres> AxelPolleres has joined #rif
16:04:39 <ChrisW> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Nov/att-0008/2008-11-04-rif-minutes.html
16:04:47 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: Approve last weeks minutes
16:04:52 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: Approve last weeks minutes
16:05:09 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
16:05:09 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Admin" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:05:26 <Zakim> +??P61
16:05:31 <ChrisW> action: Chris to change times to standard time in agenda
16:05:31 <trackbot> Created ACTION-643 - Change times to standard time in agenda [on Christopher Welty - due 2008-11-18].
16:05:46 <ChrisW> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:05:46 <Zakim> On the phone I see Harold, DaveReynolds, josb, StuartTaylor, Stella, Sandro, ChrisW, ??P55, ??P61
16:08:34 <ChrisW> zakim, ??P55 is AdrianP
16:08:34 <Zakim> +AdrianP; got it
16:09:19 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
16:09:19 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Liason" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:10:36 <Zakim> +Gary
16:10:54 <Gary_Hallmark> Gary_Hallmark has joined #rif
16:11:25 <Harold> Axel: Mapping rules written in a RIF dialect would be fine for his liaison.
16:11:51 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
16:11:51 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Public comments" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:12:36 <sandro> Sandro: Jos is going to visit OWL-WG to talk about ID/IDREF.
16:13:49 <Harold> Chris: Three outstanding responses.
16:14:21 <Harold> ... Just point OK to the changed BLD text.
16:14:27 <ChrisW> action: chris to draft comment to ok
16:14:27 <trackbot> Created ACTION-644 - Draft comment to ok [on Christopher Welty - due 2008-11-18].
16:14:52 <ChrisW> action: Chris to send WL response
16:14:52 <trackbot> Created ACTION-645 - Send WL response [on Christopher Welty - due 2008-11-18].
16:15:44 <sandro> (I'm having trouble with international dialing.  Anyone else have another phone line they can use to call Christian?   msg me if you need the number.)
16:16:19 <LeoraMorgenstern> LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif
16:16:20 <ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Response_to_RAK
16:16:39 <ChrisW> action: Gary to draft response to http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Response_to_RAK
16:16:39 <trackbot> Created ACTION-646 - Draft response to http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Response_to_RAK [on Gary Hallmark - due 2008-11-18].
16:16:47 <Zakim> +LeoraMorgenstern
16:16:49 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
16:16:49 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Action review" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:18:58 <LeoraMorgenstern> 614; I'm just sending out hte email
16:19:47 <mkifer> mkifer has joined #rif
16:20:55 <Zakim> +Michael_Kifer
16:21:48 <Harold> Michael, should we put changes always into section 2 of specs? _ thought it would always be the last appendix: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/BLD#Changes_Since_the_Last_Call_Version_.282008-07-30.29
16:22:24 <Stella> should manifest be higher priority than that translator?
16:22:34 <Stella> I mean, shouldn't
16:24:37 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
16:24:37 <Zakim> agendum 5. "rdf:text" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:25:44 <ChrisW> zakim, who is talking?
16:25:49 <Harold> Axel: Found agreement with OWL WG on rdf:text.
16:25:54 <Zakim> ChrisW, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ChrisW (5%), Sandro (18%), AxelPolleres (4%)
16:26:24 <sandro> zakim, who is talking?
16:26:35 <Zakim> sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ChrisW (74%), Sandro (30%)
16:29:14 <ChrisW> action: axel to add editors note regarding status of finite/infinite characters
16:29:14 <trackbot> Created ACTION-647 - Add editors note regarding status of finite/infinite characters [on Axel Polleres - due 2008-11-18].
16:30:00 <sandro> PROPOSED: Publish rdf:text as a FPWD, jointly with OWL-WG, given the Editor's Note about infinite character sets gets added.
16:30:12 <sandro> +1 (W3C)
16:31:27 <josb> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/InternationalizedStringSpec
16:31:29 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/InternationalizedStringSpec
16:31:48 <sandro> PROPOSED: Publish rdf:text as a FPWD, jointly with OWL-WG, given the Editor's Notes about infinite character sets (per Chris) and about compat with XML schema (per Jos) gets added.
16:32:11 <ChrisW> action: axel to add editors note on xml schema compatibility
16:32:13 <trackbot> Created ACTION-648 - Add editors note on xml schema compatibility [on Axel Polleres - due 2008-11-18].
16:33:14 <sandro> Jos: The infiniteness of the lex and val space, as well as the compatibilty with xml string -- whether the string spart of the lex & val space should be the same as xs:string -- are under discussion.
16:34:00 <josb> s/infiniteness of the lex and val space/infiniteness of the character set/
16:34:11 <Harold> ... Sandro: Best as two separate Ed
16:34:15 <Harold> s notes.
16:35:30 <Harold> Jos/Sandro: One should be fine if both aspects are kept together.
16:35:52 <sandro> PROPOSED: Publish rdf:text as a FPWD, jointly with OWL-WG, adding an editor's note about infinity (actions Jos, Axel)
16:36:19 <Zakim> -DaveReynolds
16:36:19 <sandro> +1
16:36:29 <sandro> +1 (W3C)
16:36:38 <AxelPolleres> +1 (DERI)
16:36:43 <Harold> +1 (NRC)
16:36:44 <josb> +1 (FUB)
16:36:52 <sandro> RRSAgent, pointer?
16:36:52 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2008/11/11-rif-irc#T16-36-52
16:36:53 <LeoraMorgenstern> +1
16:36:54 <Gary> +1 (Oracle)
16:37:02 <LeoraMorgenstern> +1 (IBM)
16:37:24 <StuartTaylor> +1 (Aberdeen)
16:37:31 <mkifer> +1
16:37:35 <sandro> RESOLVED: Publish rdf:text as a FPWD, jointly with OWL-WG, adding an editor's note about infinity (actions Jos, Axel)
16:37:39 <ChrisW> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:37:39 <Zakim> On the phone I see Harold, josb, StuartTaylor, Stella, Sandro, ChrisW, AdrianP, AxelPolleres, Gary, LeoraMorgenstern, Michael_Kifer
16:38:17 <ChrisW> action: send proposed editors note to rdf:text
16:38:17 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - send
16:38:26 <Harold> Jos: Will send editor's note, Axel should track.it.
16:38:28 <ChrisW> action: debruij2 send proposed editors note to rdf:text
16:38:28 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - debruij2
16:38:34 <ChrisW> action: jdebruij2 send proposed editors note to rdf:text
16:38:35 <trackbot> Created ACTION-649 - Send proposed editors note to rdf:text [on Jos de Bruijn - due 2008-11-18].
16:38:52 <ChrisW> action: Sandro to publish rdf:text
16:38:52 <trackbot> Created ACTION-650 - Publish rdf:text [on Sandro Hawke - due 2008-11-18].
16:39:20 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
16:39:20 <Zakim> agendum 6. "PRD" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:39:24 <AxelPolleres> AxelPolleres has left #rif
16:39:42 <AxelPolleres> AxelPolleres has joined #rif
16:40:22 <Harold> Chris: Trying to call Christian's cell...
16:40:53 <Harold> Gary: Most actions from Orlando were put into the PRD document.
16:41:40 <Harold> ... E.g., our understanding of conflict resolution strategies is now in the text.
16:41:52 <Harold> ... People could start draft on wiki and give feedback.
16:41:53 <ChrisW> no response from csma's phone
16:42:24 <Harold> Sandro: Does it look like easily implementable on exist. PR engines?
16:43:02 <Harold> Gary: Some aspects are not trivial to implement.
16:44:25 <Harold> ... E.g., tagging Obj. with particular class via Member is not usual in PR engines.
16:45:38 <Harold> ... Better than removing Member from Core.
16:45:43 <ChrisW> *PROPOSED:* In RIF-PRD, the conflict resolution strategy for a set of rules will be indicated using keywords, attached to the top-level group. RIF-PRD 1.0 will specify only one normative conflict resolution strategy, as specified in csma's email [9] (essentially: refraction+priority+recency). RIF-PRD 1.0 MAY specify other conflict resolution strategies (and corresponding keywords) for suggested use, but these will not be conformance points. This resolution and t
16:47:19 <Harold> Sandro: Sent email about two issues with this PROPOSED.
16:47:44 <Harold> ... 1) The term 'keyword' is not great. 
16:48:38 <sandro> Sandro: I just want it clarified that the strategy could be indicated by being part of the element name
16:48:40 <josb> I sent the email to public-rdf-text
16:48:48 <Harold> ... In XML it seems to imply it would become an attribute, while it may well become a subelement.
16:48:51 <sandro> Gary: I don't think we're saying anything one way or the other about that.
16:49:08 <ChrisW> *PROPOSED:* In RIF-PRD, the conflict resolution strategy for a set of rules will be indicated in some way attached to the top-level group. RIF-PRD 1.0 will specify only one normative conflict resolution strategy, as specified in csma's email [9] (essentially: refraction+priority+recency). RIF-PRD 1.0 MAY specify other conflict resolution strategies (and corresponding keywords) for suggested use, but these will not be conformance points. This resolution and the c
16:50:22 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: In RIF-PRD, the conflict resolution strategy for a set of rules will be indicated in some way attached to the top-level group. RIF-PRD 1.0 will specify only one normative conflict resolution strategy, as specified in csma's email [9] (essentially: refraction+priority+recency). RIF-PRD 1.0 MAY specify other conflict resolution strategies (and corresponding keywords) for suggested use, but these will not be mandatory. This resolution and the complementar
16:50:49 <ChrisW> *PROPOSED:* In RIF-PRD, the conflict resolution strategy for a set of rules will be indicated using keywords, attached to the top-level group. RIF-PRD 1.0 will specify only one normative conflict resolution strategy, as specified in csma's email [9] (essentially: refraction+priority+recency). RIF-PRD 1.0 MAY specify other conflict resolution strategies (and corresponding keywords) for suggested use, but these will not be conformance points. This resolution and t
16:51:21 <ChrisW> *PROPOSED:* In RIF-PRD, the conflict resolution strategy for a set of rules will be indicated using keywords, attached to the top-level group. RIF-PRD 1.0 will specify only one normative conflict resolution strategy, as specified in csma's email [9] (essentially: refraction+priority+recency). RIF-PRD 1.0 MAY specify other conflict resolution strategies (and corresponding keywords) for suggested use, but these will not be conformance points.
16:51:32 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: In RIF-PRD, the conflict resolution strategy for a set of rules will be indicated using keywords, attached to the top-level group. RIF-PRD 1.0 will specify only one normative conflict resolution strategy, as specified in csma's email [9] (essentially: refraction+priority+recency). RIF-PRD 1.0 MAY specify other conflict resolution strategies (and corresponding keywords) for suggested use, but these will not be conformance points.
16:52:33 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: In RIF-PRD, the conflict resolution strategy for a set of rules will be indicated in some way, associated with the top-level group. RIF-PRD 1.0 will specify only one normative conflict resolution strategy, as specified in csma's email [9] (essentially: refraction+priority+recency). 
16:53:28 <sandro> Sandro: So this means you can't merge rulesets....    but that's the state of the art anyway.
16:53:28 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: RIF-PRD 1.0 MAY specify other conflict resolution strategies for suggested use, but these will not be mandatory.
16:53:40 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: Close Issue-64
16:53:56 <sandro> issue-64
16:53:59 <sandro> issue-64?
16:54:10 <trackbot> ISSUE-64 -- Conflict resolution strategies to be covered by PRD? -- OPEN
16:54:10 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/issues/64
16:54:54 <sandro> +0
16:54:59 <Gary> +1
16:55:02 <sandro> +0 on all three at once
16:55:06 <Harold> +1
16:55:07 <AxelPolleres> 0
16:55:08 <ChrisW> +1
16:55:28 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: In RIF-PRD, the conflict resolution strategy for a set of rules will be indicated in some way, associated with the top-level group. RIF-PRD 1.0 will specify only one normative conflict resolution strategy, as specified in csma's email [9] (essentially: refraction+priority+recency). 
16:55:39 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: RIF-PRD 1.0 MAY specify other conflict resolution strategies for suggested use, but these will not be mandatory.
16:55:47 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: Close Issue-64
16:55:52 <mkifer> mkifer has joined #rif
16:55:58 <ChrisW> action: chris to close issue 64
16:56:01 <ChrisW> rrsagent, pointer
16:56:01 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2008/11/11-rif-irc#T16-56-01
16:56:16 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
16:56:16 <Zakim> agendum 8. "DTB" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:56:30 <trackbot> Created ACTION-651 - Close issue 64 [on Christopher Welty - due 2008-11-18].
16:57:16 <Harold> Axel: Let's go thru the Ed's notes.
17:00:25 <Harold> Basically Remove: We might introduce additional shortcuts, e.g. for rif:text
17:00:35 <StuartTaylor> StuartTaylor has joined #rif
17:00:39 <Harold> Remove:  rif:text (in particular, its identifying IRI) is an AT RISK feature.
17:01:36 <Harold> Re: The naming convention for guard predicates, ...
17:02:13 <Harold> Axel: Would just leave text unchanged and remove Ed's note.
17:03:10 <Harold> ... When you define your own dialect, should you be encouraged to reuse pred/func prefixes.
17:03:26 <Harold> ... Who is authorized to reuse such namespace prefixes?
17:03:31 <Harold> Sandro: W3C.
17:04:30 <Harold> Axel: Should we say new W3C specs should use these namespace prefixes?
17:04:55 <Harold> Chris: Give advice. Use word "should" or "should not".
17:05:00 <AxelPolleres> W3C specs MAY reuse, 3rd party dialects MUST NOT reuse the pred and func namespace 
17:05:00 <AxelPolleres> ?
17:05:21 <Harold> SHOULD and SHOULD NOT?
17:06:31 <Harold> Re: It was noted in discussions of the working group, that except guard  ... SPARQL's datatype function ... needed.
17:07:05 <Harold> Axel: Which value to return?
17:07:22 <Harold> ... Can not emulate the same behavior.
17:07:28 <Harold> ... Even with a predicate.
17:07:46 <Harold> ... SPARQL's datatype functions cannot be emulated.
17:07:49 <josb> that's because SPARQL's def is broken
17:09:12 <Harold> Chris: But what about adding a predicate (not a function), which can bind all these multiple values?
17:09:29 <Harold> ... Was proposed by Dave Reynolds.
17:11:06 <Harold> ... Single predicate for checking types instead of one for each.
17:11:47 <Harold> Re: The naming convention for negative guard predicates ...
17:11:54 <Harold> Axel: Same thing.
17:12:14 <Harold> Re: In the following, we adapt several cast functions from [XPath-Functions]. 
17:12:28 <Harold> Axel: Only referring to conversion table.
17:12:37 <Harold> ... Would need more refined explanation.
17:12:57 <Harold> ... Will try to resolve and have it reviewed.
17:13:24 <Harold> Re: We might split this subsection into separate subsections per casting function...
17:13:36 <Harold> Axel: TBD
17:14:02 <Harold> Re: The cast from rif:text to xs:string is still under discussion, ...
17:14:24 <Harold> Chris: This fct stays here.
17:14:28 <Harold> Axel: OK.
17:14:52 <Harold> Re: Conversion from rif:iri to xs:string and vice versa is still under discussion ...
17:15:08 <Harold> Axel: If everyone is fine as is, we can leave it.
17:15:32 <Harold> ... Strange thing is that can be viewed in both conversion directions.
17:15:44 <Harold> ... Only one is intended.
17:16:34 <Harold> ... Use case is creation URI from string.
17:16:49 <Harold> Sandro: Comes also up in POWDER.
17:17:11 <Harold> ... They have various such conversion needs.
17:17:32 <Harold> s/URI/IRI/
17:17:56 <Harold> Axel: Only the predicate NAME is a problem.
17:18:10 <Harold> ... It's fine to use the same predicate.
17:18:28 <Harold> Sandro: Think has just been called IRI.
17:19:01 <Harold> ... Gives you IRI of anything.
17:19:27 <Harold> ... Need a bunch of test cases.
17:19:36 <Harold> ... Tricky 'corner' of the language.
17:19:53 <Harold> Axel: Could write some, but Jos is better in this.
17:20:46 <Harold> ... OK to rename it into iristring?
17:20:56 <Harold> Jos/Sandro: Yes.
17:21:32 <Harold> Chris: Potential unexpected results?
17:21:50 <Harold> Jos: Only some IRIs you dont expect from strings, and vice versa.
17:22:03 <Harold> ... Will do.
17:22:12 <Harold> Sandro: Some should use RDF.
17:22:21 <Harold> Jos/Axel: OK.
17:22:23 <ChrisW> action: jos to write some more pathological test cases for potentially confusing uses of iri-string predicate
17:22:23 <trackbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - jos
17:22:23 <trackbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. jdebruij2, jderoo)
17:22:34 <ChrisW> action: jdebruij2 to write some more pathological test cases for potentially confusing uses of iri-string predicate
17:22:44 <trackbot> Created ACTION-652 - Write some more pathological test cases for potentially confusing uses of iri-string predicate [on Jos de Bruijn - due 2008-11-18].
17:23:00 <Harold> Re: The following treatment of built-ins which may have multiple arities ...
17:24:43 <Harold> Axel: Would propose to keep multiple arities.
17:25:26 <Harold> Harold: We need this for min and max functions (for uncertainty encoding etc.).
17:25:41 <StuartTaylor> StuartTaylor has joined #rif
17:25:59 <Harold> Chris: Problem: Would you need infinitely many functions, then, semantically?
17:26:03 <Harold> Axel: No.
17:26:40 <Harold> Chris: Seems fine as a syntactic convention.
17:27:33 <Harold> Axel: If we allow variable arities in External, then we are done, too.
17:27:49 <ChrisW> action: chris to open issue on polyadic functions per not in DTB 3.5
17:27:51 <StuartTaylor> StuartTaylor has joined #rif
17:27:53 <trackbot> Created ACTION-653 - Open issue on polyadic functions per not in DTB 3.5 [on Christopher Welty - due 2008-11-18].
17:28:53 <ChrisW> action: Chris to put remaining DTB editors notes on agenda
17:29:12 <Harold> Chris: Remaining four Ed's notes in DTB moved to next telecon.
17:29:15 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
17:29:15 <Zakim> agendum 9. "PICK SCRIBE" taken up [from ChrisW]
17:29:22 <Harold> Axel: Add link to issue.
17:29:39 <ChrisW> scribe for next week: leora
17:29:39 <trackbot> Created ACTION-654 - Put remaining DTB editors notes on agenda [on Christopher Welty - due 2008-11-18].
17:29:50 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
17:29:50 <Zakim> agendum 9 was just opened, ChrisW
17:30:10 <Zakim> -Michael_Kifer
17:30:11 <Zakim> -Stella
17:30:12 <ChrisW> zakim, list attendees
17:30:12 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Harold, DaveReynolds, josb, Stella, StuartTaylor, Sandro, +1.914.784.aabb, ChrisW, AxelPolleres, AdrianP, Gary, LeoraMorgenstern,
17:30:15 <Zakim> ... Michael_Kifer
17:30:15 <Zakim> -LeoraMorgenstern
17:30:16 <Zakim> -josb
17:30:18 <Zakim> -AdrianP
17:30:23 <Zakim> -StuartTaylor
17:30:28 <Zakim> -Gary
17:31:00 <ChrisW> Regrets: Hassan Aït-Kaci Christian de Sainte Marie (at risk) PaulVincent
17:31:05 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
17:31:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/11-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
17:31:18 <Zakim> -Harold
17:31:24 <Zakim> -AxelPolleres
17:32:02 <Zakim> -Sandro
17:32:05 <Zakim> -ChrisW
17:32:06 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
17:32:08 <Zakim> Attendees were Harold, DaveReynolds, josb, Stella, StuartTaylor, Sandro, +1.914.784.aabb, ChrisW, AxelPolleres, AdrianP, Gary, LeoraMorgenstern, Michael_Kifer