14:51:21 RRSAgent has joined #bpwg 14:51:22 logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/11/11-bpwg-irc 14:51:23 RRSAgent, make logs public 14:51:23 Zakim has joined #bpwg 14:51:25 Zakim, this will be BPWG 14:51:25 ok, trackbot; I see MWI_BPWG(CTTF)10:00AM scheduled to start in 9 minutes 14:51:26 Meeting: Mobile Web Best Practices Working Group Teleconference 14:51:26 Date: 11 November 2008 14:51:31 Chair: francois 14:52:15 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg-ct/2008Nov/0018.html 14:56:44 jo has joined #bpwg 14:57:31 tomhume has joined #bpwg 14:58:21 3 14:58:28 s/3// 14:59:15 MWI_BPWG(CTTF)10:00AM has now started 14:59:23 +??P8 14:59:24 -??P8 14:59:25 MWI_BPWG(CTTF)10:00AM has ended 14:59:25 Attendees were 14:59:33 MWI_BPWG(CTTF)10:00AM has now started 14:59:35 +??P9 14:59:44 zakim, ??P9 is me 14:59:44 +francois; got it 14:59:52 +??P11 14:59:54 zakim, code? 14:59:56 -??P11 14:59:56 zakim, ??P11 is me 14:59:58 +??P11 15:00:02 the conference code is 2283 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jo 15:00:07 +tomhume; got it 15:00:50 + +41.31.972.aaaa 15:01:00 +??P15 15:01:02 zakim, who is making noise? 15:01:11 SeanP has joined #bpwg 15:01:13 francois, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: +41.31.972.aaaa (41%), francois (60%), tomhume (5%) 15:01:32 -francois 15:01:34 - +41.31.972.aaaa 15:01:43 zakim, ??P15 is probably me 15:01:49 +jo?; got it 15:01:56 rob has joined #bpwg 15:02:09 + +41.31.972.aabb 15:02:18 + +64550aacc 15:02:24 zakim, aacc is me 15:02:24 +francois; got it 15:02:26 +rob 15:02:55 +SeanP 15:03:33 zakim, aabb is Eduardo 15:03:33 +Eduardo; got it 15:04:31 Scribe: rob 15:04:40 ScribeNick: rob 15:05:15 francois: Welcome Eduardo Casis 15:05:26 i/francois/Topic: Welcome to Eduardo Casais 15:06:09 ... already known to us from a host of useful comments on the mailing-list 15:06:25 s/Casis/Casais/ 15:06:26 zakim, who is here? 15:06:26 On the phone I see tomhume, jo?, Eduardo, francois, rob, SeanP 15:06:27 On IRC I see rob, SeanP, tomhume, jo, Zakim, RRSAgent, francois, dom, trackbot 15:06:48 zakim, jo? is really me 15:06:48 +jo; got it 15:06:56 [round of introductions] 15:08:42 +jo.a 15:08:59 -jo 15:09:30 Eduardo: I work for a small mobile content developer in Switzerland, previously worked for Nokia where I was involved in many things including UA-Prof 15:09:51 -> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/TaskForces/CT/editors-drafts/Guidelines/081107 New draft of CT 15:10:01 Topic: New Draft 15:10:28 jo: I could talk at length on this! 15:10:37 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg-ct/2008Nov/0017.html Jo's changelog and discussion 15:10:45 ... I hope it includes all the resolutions so far 15:11:21 ... Hope to gather together anything missing (eg rewriting HTTPS links holes) in the next 2-3 days 15:12:10 ... considerable polish is required but would be a waste of time until the substance is stable, which may take another draft 15:12:48 ... it will be useful if everyone gives this draft a deep review 15:13:06 ... santiy-check and make sure it says what we agreed 15:13:13 ... check for consistency 15:13:38 ... tighten the nuts and bolts (eg any shoulds that could be musts?) 15:13:53 ... and check if clarity can be improved 15:14:18 francois: everyone should send comments to the mailing-list 15:14:33 ... just like Eduardo has been doing 15:14:52 Topic: Content-Location 15:15:08 fd: introduced by Rob on the mailing-list. 15:16:03 rob: Yes. Don't think there is anything to do, but comes from a long discussion, so I wanted to check whether there was a reason not to include a Content-Location header in the response passed downstream to the phone 15:16:25 jo: do we need to propose text around this? 15:16:48 francois: Rob's said he doesn't think there is anything to propose here 15:17:39 Eduardo: RFC says the value of Content-Location also defines the base URI of the entity 15:17:56 francois: that's also one of my fears 15:18:06 ... and is more correct 15:18:16 q+ 15:18:24 ack rob 15:19:04 rob: I just wanted to see if anyone has a need for this at all 15:19:17 ... and so far I've heard no reason to want it 15:19:44 francois: could be a way to pass the canonical URI to the client for bookmarking 15:20:13 rob: I tried that on a real phone and it doesn't work 15:20:37 francois: correct, no-one uses that right now 15:20:51 PROPOSED RESOLUTION: No need to mention Content-Location header 15:20:57 ... does anyone want us to go to TAG to check? 15:20:57 +1 15:21:04 +1 15:21:06 +1 15:21:26 RESOLUTION: No need to mention Content-Location header 15:21:51 Topic: OMA Standard Transcoding Interface 15:22:15 francois: no overlap at the moment between OMA doc and our doc 15:23:05 zakim, who is here? 15:23:06 On the phone I see tomhume, Eduardo, francois, rob, SeanP, jo.a 15:23:07 On IRC I see rob, SeanP, tomhume, jo, Zakim, RRSAgent, francois, dom, trackbot 15:23:08 ... OMA doc is an interface for a server, not for a proxy 15:23:21 zakim, jo.a is really jo 15:23:21 +jo; got it 15:23:21 ... so there is no incompatibility and no overlap 15:23:55 ... but there is some media-transcoding vocab defined that could be useful in future work 15:24:40 jo: can we resolve LC-2051 now then? 15:24:50 PROPOSED RESOLUTION: ref LC-2051 This is out of scope for our document but may have interest for a general transformation vocab 15:24:57 +1 15:24:59 +1 15:24:59 +1 15:25:03 +1 15:25:24 +1 15:25:32 RESOLUTION: ref LC-2051 This is out of scope for our document but may have interest for a general transformation vocab 15:26:09 Close ACTION-868 15:26:09 ACTION-868 Review OMA STI to see if there's something relevant for CT for LC-2051 closed 15:26:21 Topic: Draft responses to "resolved no" comments 15:26:55 francois: reminder to everyone to propose responses back to contributors ASAP 15:28:01 -> http://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/37584/WD-ct-guidelines-20080801/2053 LC-2053 15:28:10 francois: postponed LC-2053 response recently 15:28:17 i/->/Topic: LC-2053 15:28:39 ... about classes of device 15:30:42 ... and section 4.1.5 of the old draft 15:36:10 ecasais has joined #bpwg 15:36:14 -> http://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/37584/WD-ct-guidelines-20080801/2053 LC-2053 15:37:17 http://www.w3.org/2006/02/lc-comments-tracker/37584/WD-ct-guidelines-20080801/2053 15:37:28 ecasais has joined #bpwg 15:38:06 jo: Eduardo can you please clarify what you want from LC-2053 15:38:06 ACTION: casais to review LC-2053 and clarify to group 15:38:06 Created ACTION-880 - Review LC-2053 and clarify to group [on Eduardo Casais - due 2008-11-18]. 15:38:30 Topic: Unclear form encoding must be preserved for the server 15:38:49 francois: again triggered by one of Eduardo's comments 15:40:30 ... current wording is unclear about if a CT-proxy must roll-back encoding changes made in responses when a form is submitted 15:40:58 jo: which exceptions are we talking about? 15:41:24 francois: section 4.1.5 15:41:31 -> http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/TaskForces/CT/editors-drafts/Guidelines/081107#sec-altering-header-values Alteration of HTTP Header Values 15:42:43 ... the previous draft talked about Content-Encoding changes in the body, this has been removed 15:43:34 jo: we previously talked about transforming request bodies but decided we didn't add much (if anything) to the requirements that already exist 15:44:02 ... do we have anything to say on something happening today that we want to stop happening? 15:44:41 Eduardo: the mowser transcoder doesn't handle Character-Encoding properly 15:45:08 ... eg UTF-8 characters end up as Latin-1 15:45:47 jo: mowser hasn't been updated for a while and has lots of bugs, this is a known bug 15:46:37 Eduardo: Vodafone ES and PT transcoders don't handle numerical entities well 15:47:25 jo: but these are clear bugs, not debatable ambiguities 15:48:11 ... so avoiding carelessness or error is not part of our specification 15:49:27 francois: we talked about adding Encoding to the appendix E list 15:49:57 ... as merely a list of heuristics 15:50:02 PROPOSED RESOLUTION: On the subject of character encoding, we have revisited it and we still can't think of anything useful other than "avoid bugs" when transforming between character encoding so we have decided to leave it 15:50:32 ... was written as "recoded or restructured" 15:51:27 jo: I remember something about this but could not find a resolution to follow when writing the latest draft 15:51:48 ... so here is one: 15:53:18 jo: I don't think we need to talk about transforming the encoding of a request body 15:53:53 PROPOSED RESOLUTION: On the subject of character encoding, we have revisited it and we still can't think of anything useful other than "avoid bugs" when transforming between character encoding and to note that this is an example of a heuristic that the proxy may take into account when transforming content if it thinks that the encoding provided may mis-operate when presented on the client 15:54:44 francois: the only case is when the encoding of the response has been changed and the client is then submitting a form from that response 15:55:55 Eduardo: this isn't a heuristic, it's a rule 15:57:55 rob: yes, the rule is if you change Character-Encoding in one direction (server-to-phone) you have to change it in the other direction (phone-to-server) as well 15:59:11 Jo: we're not in the business of specifying how to transform images, HTML etc, so we don't need to specify this either 16:00:21 ... this is not our job to write a "building transcoders for dummies" book 16:01:36 francois: I second that point, we don't need to expand on that in the Guidelines 16:02:17 jo: do we want to add this to 4.2.8.1? Because it's not a heuristic 16:02:55 PROPOSED RESOLUTION: On the subject of character encoding, we have revisited it and we still can't think of anything useful other than "avoid bugs" when transforming between character encoding (which we don't intend to say) and add it to the list in 4.2.8.1 so that character encoding is specifically referred to 16:03:09 +1 16:03:18 +1 16:03:18 +1 16:03:21 +1 16:03:37 PROPOSED RESOLUTION: On the subject of character encoding, we have revisited it and we still can't think of anything useful other than "avoid bugs" when transforming between character encoding (which we don't intend to say) but add it to the list in 4.2.8.1 so that character encoding is specifically referred to 16:03:42 RESOLUTION: On the subject of character encoding, we have revisited it and we still can't think of anything useful other than "avoid bugs" when transforming between character encoding (which we don't intend to say) but add it to the list in 4.2.8.1 so that character encoding is specifically referred to 16:05:20 ACTION: jo to enact resolution on 4.2.8.1 ref adding character-encoding to the list of format, layout, dimensions etc. 16:05:20 Created ACTION-881 - Enact resolution on 4.2.8.1 ref adding character-encoding to the list of format, layout, dimensions etc. [on Jo Rabin - due 2008-11-18]. 16:06:02 Eduardo: do we need to point out the requirements of what the server expects? 16:06:38 PROPOSED RESOLUTION: do not discuss alteration of request body in respect of character encoding 16:08:31 francois: do we need to mention that altering the request-body isn't envisaged except "rolling back" changes like Character-Encoding? 16:09:17 +1 16:09:23 +1 16:09:24 +1 16:09:53 rob: there are a few other changes that need rolling back too - for example pasting back together inputs that got split amongst sub-pages 16:09:54 +1 16:10:03 RESOLUTION: do not discuss alteration of request body in respect of character encoding 16:11:27 -tomhume 16:11:28 -francois 16:11:28 -jo 16:11:30 -SeanP 16:11:31 -rob 16:11:33 -Eduardo 16:11:34 MWI_BPWG(CTTF)10:00AM has ended 16:11:36 Attendees were francois, tomhume, +41.31.972.aaaa, +41.31.972.aabb, +64550aacc, rob, SeanP, Eduardo, jo 16:13:47 RRSAgent, draft minutes 16:13:47 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/11-bpwg-minutes.html francois 16:14:18 rob has left #bpwg 17:35:00 Zakim has left #bpwg 17:52:55 RRSAgent, bye 17:52:55 I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/11-bpwg-actions.rdf : 17:52:55 ACTION: casais to review LC-2053 and clarify to group [1] 17:52:55 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/11-bpwg-irc#T15-38-06-1 17:52:55 ACTION: jo to enact resolution on 4.2.8.1 ref adding character-encoding to the list of format, layout, dimensions etc. [2] 17:52:55 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/11-bpwg-irc#T16-05-20