IRC log of ua on 2008-11-06

Timestamps are in UTC.

18:58:35 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
18:58:35 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-ua-irc
18:58:37 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
18:58:37 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #ua
18:58:39 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
18:58:39 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()2:00PM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
18:58:40 [trackbot]
Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
18:58:40 [trackbot]
Date: 06 November 2008
18:59:30 [jeanne]
zakim, code?
18:59:30 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jeanne
18:59:37 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()2:00PM has now started
18:59:44 [Zakim]
+jeanne
19:00:53 [Zakim]
+Cantor
19:00:56 [Zakim]
+??P7
19:01:03 [Zakim]
+allanj
19:01:23 [jeanne]
zakim, ??P7 is Simon
19:01:23 [Zakim]
+Simon; got it
19:02:05 [JR]
JR has joined #ua
19:03:00 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
19:03:13 [JR]
zakim, [IPcaller] is really Jan
19:03:14 [Zakim]
+Jan; got it
19:03:38 [sharper]
chair: AllanJ
19:03:52 [sharper]
Scribe: Simon
19:03:57 [AllanJ]
regrets: kelly, mark
19:04:26 [sharper]
ScribeNick: sharper
19:05:20 [AllanJ]
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/survey20081106/results
19:05:44 [jeanne]
agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008OctDec/0043.html
19:06:42 [sharper]
David Poehlman Comment: The proposal says interface but then goes on to say interface and rendered content. are we talking both? should they be split?
19:07:17 [JR]
q+
19:07:47 [AllanJ]
Alan proposal: 2.1.2 For each user interface component, including the user interface itself and rendered content, make available its name, role, state, value, and description via an accessibility platform architecture.
19:08:04 [sharper]
JR: Looks good
19:08:44 [AllanJ]
+1
19:09:03 [sharper]
Alan C: Should say 'and every' as opposed to each?
19:09:35 [sharper]
JR: Likes the way it is
19:10:37 [sharper]
ACTION: jeanne Write back to David - re new wording
19:10:37 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-69 - Write back to David - re new wording [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2008-11-13].
19:13:52 [AllanJ]
discussion on wording of PRINCIPLE 2. Facilitate access by assistive technologies
19:14:18 [AllanJ]
sharper: assistive technologies seems too limiting
19:14:53 [jeanne]
My concern with removing "assistive technologies" would be introducing new jargon that would not be easily understandable.
19:15:35 [AllanJ]
JR: perhaps a rationale is needed. Change to "facilitate programmatic access"
19:16:59 [judy]
judy has joined #ua
19:17:08 [AllanJ]
JS: need to make intention clear, want to keep 'assistive technologies'
19:17:11 [judy]
zakim, dial judy-office
19:17:11 [Zakim]
ok, judy; the call is being made
19:17:13 [Zakim]
+Judy
19:17:53 [AllanJ]
SH: concern for future of UAs, mobile, etc. programmers know programmatic access
19:18:19 [AllanJ]
...keep assistive technologies for pragmatic reasons
19:20:19 [judy]
judy has changed the topic to: Today's agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008OctDec/0043.html
19:21:58 [AllanJ]
SH: UAAG20 around for long time. should be more general more agnostic
19:22:57 [AllanJ]
... all of principle 2 says programmatic access
19:23:13 [JR]
JR: Jan's point included making sure assistive tech is highlighted in the coming rationale
19:23:34 [AllanJ]
... rationale is assistive technology
19:24:47 [sharper]
AllanJ: Proposes change to programmatic access, but including AT in rationale
19:24:56 [sharper]
+1
19:25:16 [sharper]
SH: +1
19:26:42 [AllanJ]
+1 makes it more general.
19:27:40 [sharper]
ACTION: jeanne place 'facilitate programmatic access' into survey.
19:27:40 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-70 - Place 'facilitate programmatic access' into survey. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2008-11-13].
19:27:47 [jeanne]
action: JS to place the rewording of Principle 2 to "Facilitate programatic access" in next week's survey
19:27:47 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-71 - Place the rewording of Principle 2 to \"Facilitate programatic access\" in next week's survey [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2008-11-13].
19:28:18 [jeanne]
+1
19:28:44 [AllanJ]
2.1.2 For each user interface component, including the user interface itself and rendered content, make available its name, role, state, value, and description via an accessibility platform architecture.
19:28:59 [sharper]
ACTION: jeanne place Alan's new wording into survey.
19:28:59 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-72 - Place Alan's new wording into survey. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2008-11-13].
19:30:51 [sharper]
AllanJ: discussion of 2.1.3
19:31:58 [sharper]
JS: Address David's issue by adding a use case example
19:32:26 [sharper]
Davids Comment: this is unclear, what inaccessible functionality is left?
19:34:02 [sharper]
JS: do we have a use case for this.
19:37:56 [AllanJ]
discussion of interrelationship between 2.1.2 and 2.1.3
19:41:32 [AllanJ]
SH: why does UA have to compensate for accessibility platform architecture
19:42:42 [AllanJ]
JR: UA can do lots of new cool things, but you have to map it some how to the accessibility platform architecture (apa)
19:42:58 [JR]
Action JR: Write a proposal to clarify and perhaps integrate 2.1.2 and 2.1.3
19:42:58 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-73 - Write a proposal to clarify and perhaps integrate 2.1.2 and 2.1.3 [on Jan Richards - due 2008-11-13].
19:44:12 [sharper]
AllanJ: 2.1.4 - everyone agrees with: 2.1.4 If the user agent implements one or more DOMs, make the DOMs programmatically available to assistive technologies.
19:44:38 [sharper]
AllanJ - AC: says "Do we need to specify which assistive technologies? Or to what degree?"
19:44:58 [sharper]
... something like ' "... make the DOM or DOMs programmatically available to assistive technologies to the greatest extent possible??'
19:45:41 [sharper]
JR: we need to make it just programmatically available?
19:45:56 [JR]
Q+
19:46:13 [sharper]
AC: AT can do different things - do we expect developers to understand AT?
19:46:50 [sharper]
AllanJ: Do we need to change AT to accessibility platform architectures
19:47:17 [jeanne]
q+ to suggest that if a functionality works in only one modality (e.g. vision or mouse) then...
19:47:28 [JR]
q-
19:47:40 [jeanne]
ack jeanne
19:47:40 [Zakim]
jeanne, you wanted to suggest that if a functionality works in only one modality (e.g. vision or mouse) then...
19:47:42 [sharper]
JR: programmatic access aims reduce the amount developers will need to know about AT
19:48:51 [sharper]
JS: More about functionality that is available in one modality, and the need for multiple modalities.
19:49:28 [sharper]
AllanJ: Everything needs to be in the DOM - this will handle different modailities
19:49:52 [sharper]
\me LET ME KNOW IF I'M GETTING THE NAMES WRONG PLEASE.
19:51:58 [sharper]
General Discussion regarding the interplay between API pipe, DOM, AT and accessibility platform
19:52:21 [jeanne]
do we need 2.1.3 at all then?
19:52:35 [sharper]
AllanJ: In Conclusion DOM must be available to AT
19:52:48 [jeanne]
s/2.1.3/2.1.4
19:53:01 [sharper]
AllanJ: Proposes 2.1.4 is complete
19:53:04 [sharper]
All Agree
19:53:28 [jeanne]
action: JS to add 2.1.4 to the new draft.
19:53:28 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-74 - Add 2.1.4 to the new draft. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2008-11-13].
19:54:52 [sharper]
Judy: can we ask David Poehlman to clarify his comment 'cannot accept, advise or reject.'
19:55:34 [AllanJ]
action: jim to write david concerning clarify comment on 2.1.4 - need more expansion
19:55:34 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-75 - Write david concerning clarify comment on 2.1.4 - need more expansion [on Jim Allan - due 2008-11-13].
19:57:20 [sharper]
item 3 3. Work on language of Principal 3 success criteria.
19:57:21 [sharper]
- establish style rules for document
19:57:21 [sharper]
- Issue 16 - Relook at the phrasing of Principle 3 to ensure
19:57:42 [sharper]
clarity.
19:58:10 [sharper]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/16
19:58:11 [sharper]
- establish replacement wording for 'chrome' (SC 3.10.11, and
19:58:11 [sharper]
elsewhere, Issue 2 - http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/2)
19:58:25 [jeanne]
q?
20:01:28 [sharper]
from stored data
20:01:29 [sharper]
>From my mail 10. Principle 3, in particular 3.1 needs to be more clear. I�ve mentioned on a few calls how the user interface does a lot visually to convey meaning. I don�t think these guidelines give enough detail on what needs to happen or the expectation around accessibility. User agents today do a lot to convey state from security to page functionality with unique UI elements. AT jumps around loads of hoops today to convey this info.
20:01:43 [sharper]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008OctDec/att-0026/00-part
20:02:25 [AllanJ]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2008/WD-UAAG20-20081022/WD-UAAG20-20081022.html#principle-perceivable
20:03:47 [sharper]
Previous Discussion:
20:03:48 [sharper]
RINCIPLE 3: Ensure that the user interface is perceivable
20:03:48 [sharper]
JAllan: Anyone have any general problems with the wording?
20:03:49 [sharper]
none heard.
20:03:49 [sharper]
Now looking at Guideline 3.1 Provide text alternatives for non-text components
20:03:50 [sharper]
group is ok with general wording.
20:03:50 [sharper]
JR: I wanted to comment on something we found in ATAG. The item one that says you need to cover the accessibility of your platform is likely to cover this.
20:03:52 [sharper]
Jeanne: I wanted to ensure we covered the accessibility of documentation.
20:03:54 [sharper]
>From my mail 10. Principle 3, in particular 3.1 needs to be more clear. I�ve mentioned on a few calls how the user interface does a lot visually to convey meaning. I don�t think these guidelines give enough detail on what needs to happen or the expectation around accessibility. User agents today do a lot to convey state from security to page functionality with unique UI elements. AT jumps around loads of hoops today to convey this info.
20:03:59 [sharper]
<jallan> KF: should keep, need to be a bit explicit, to make sure the point gets across
20:04:01 [sharper]
More discussion about whether 3.1 is covered in guideline 1.
20:04:03 [sharper]
<jallan> KF: user interface everything is labeled and available programatically
20:04:05 [sharper]
<jallan> ... the UA could do more to make the information available.
20:04:07 [sharper]
<jallan> JA: 3.1.1 does not say make information available programatically
20:04:09 [sharper]
<jallan> JR: should be in Principal 2
20:04:11 [sharper]
<jallan> JA: information is available passively, the user must request the security state, rss feed, etc.
20:04:13 [sharper]
kford more discussion about this.
20:04:15 [sharper]
<jallan> ... do we need some SC to allow option to provide overview of current states in the UA
20:04:17 [sharper]
JR: I think principle two would cover most of this.
20:04:19 [sharper]
<jallan> JS: this is needed for low vision people.
20:04:22 [sharper]
kford: kford and Jeanne think principle three needs to be strengthened.
20:04:24 [sharper]
<jallan> ... ARIA has section on passive alerts, perhaps we need something like that
20:04:25 [sharper]
JAllan: we've talked a lot about screen readers. Visually you glance around.
20:04:27 [sharper]
... if this is all available programatically, isn't it then the AT's job to grab this info.
20:04:29 [sharper]
<jallan> KF: what is the state, what is important, the UA has gone through the effort to provide an icon. How is the user to decide what is important
20:04:32 [sharper]
<jallan> ... I am missing the gestalt of the information
20:04:35 [sharper]
<scribe> ACTION: kford jeanne to add guideline in 3.1 around improving perceivability [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/21-ua-minutes.html#action01]
20:04:38 [sharper]
<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - kford
20:04:39 [sharper]
<jeanne> ACTION: KF to KF and JS to write proposal for Guideline 3.1 improving perceivability of user interface and passive status. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/21-ua-minutes.html#action02]
20:04:42 [sharper]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-48 - KF and JS to write proposal for Guideline 3.1 improving perceivability of user interface and passive status. [on Kelly Ford - due 2008-10-28].
20:04:45 [sharper]
<jallan> JR: add to examples, kinds of important state information
20:04:47 [sharper]
JR: I think we need to add to examples, some of what kford was saying about important state in modern browsers.
20:04:49 [sharper]
JAllan: 3.1.1 needs to reveal info programatically and there needs to be some mechanism to provide a overview of important state items.
20:04:53 [sharper]
Guideline 3.2 Provide access to alternative content
20:04:54 [sharper]
JR: I have a long standing general concern about mixing content and user interface.
20:04:56 [sharper]
JAllan restates JR's concern.
20:04:58 [sharper]
JS: This goes back to what I was saying in the beginning about the overall principle. This talks about content and user interface.
20:05:02 [sharper]
JR: You either split into two principles or expand scope of the current principle.
20:05:04 [sharper]
JAllan: I prefer to keep one principle if possible.
20:05:05 [sharper]
Jeanne: We need to ensure any author controls like ARIA are perceivable.
20:05:07 [sharper]
<jallan> JA: the user agent provides a user interface to allow access to the author provided alternative content
20:05:10 [sharper]
kford: I think we need to expand the scope of principle 3.
20:05:11 [sharper]
... Today the web author can easily extend what's traditionally thought of of the user agent
20:05:13 [sharper]
<jeanne> http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/CR-WCAG20-20080430/#perceivable
20:05:15 [sharper]
<jeanne> I think we should use the WCAG wording:
20:05:18 [sharper]
<Jan> PRINCIPLE 3: Perceivable - The user agent's user interface and rendered content must be presented to users in ways they can perceive
20:05:21 [sharper]
<jeanne> issue: relook at the phrasing of Principle 3 to ensure clarity.
20:05:23 [sharper]
<trackbot> Created ISSUE-16 - Relook at the phrasing of Principle 3 to ensure clarity. ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/16/edit .
20:07:16 [sharper]
AllanJ: Leave Issue 16 and move to success criteria starting at 3.1.1
20:08:40 [sharper]
JR: scrap 3.1.1 and concentrate on criteria primarily related to user agents not other kinds of software
20:08:51 [sharper]
AllanJ: as it is covered in principle 1
20:08:54 [jeanne]
+1 to deleting 3.1
20:09:20 [sharper]
SH: +1
20:09:24 [AllanJ]
+1
20:09:26 [sharper]
AC: +1
20:09:38 [sharper]
JB: +1
20:09:43 [jeanne]
Action: JS to delete Guideline and SC for 3.1
20:09:43 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-76 - Delete Guideline and SC for 3.1 [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2008-11-13].
20:10:09 [sharper]
AllanJ: 3.2.1 The user has the global option to be notified of alternatives to rendered content (e.g., short text alternatives, long descriptions, captions)
20:10:42 [AllanJ]
STYLE Note - action verbs
20:10:46 [sharper]
jeanne: refresh... rephrasing so everything starts with an action verb
20:11:29 [jeanne]
Provide a global option to be notified of alternatives...
20:11:45 [sharper]
Discussion: ensure or provide?
20:12:15 [sharper]
AllanJ: Ensure
20:12:18 [jeanne]
+1 to provide
20:12:26 [AllanJ]
=1 provide
20:12:29 [sharper]
AC: Provide
20:12:38 [JR]
JR: Provide
20:13:20 [jeanne]
s/=1 provide/+1 provide
20:13:28 [sharper]
SH: Ensure
20:14:31 [sharper]
AllanJ: 3.2.1 done, choice is 'provide'.
20:14:39 [jeanne]
action: JS to update 3.2.1 with " Provide a global option to be notified of alternatives..."
20:14:39 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-77 - Update 3.2.1 with \" Provide a global option to be notified of alternatives...\" [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2008-11-13].
20:15:07 [AllanJ]
Provide a global option for the user to be notified of alternatives to rendered content (e.g., short text alternatives, long descriptions, captions)
20:15:17 [sharper]
AllanJ: Moving on to '3.2.2 Configurable Default Rendering: The user has the global option to set preferences for which alternative(s) are rendered by default. (Level A)'
20:15:29 [Alan]
Alan has joined #ua
20:16:15 [JR]
+1
20:16:21 [Alan]
OK
20:16:40 [AllanJ]
Provide a global option for the user to set preferences for which alternative(s) are rendered by default.
20:18:03 [JR]
q+
20:18:47 [AllanJ]
SH: if user can choose all alternatives to be rendered, how do we communicate that to the developer, that the user is to have a choice
20:22:40 [JR]
q-
20:23:10 [AllanJ]
action: jim to rewrite 3.2.2 to allow user to choose any combination of alternatives to be rendered
20:23:10 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-78 - Rewrite 3.2.2 to allow user to choose any combination of alternatives to be rendered [on Jim Allan - due 2008-11-13].
20:25:03 [jeanne]
action: JS to draft a new wording for 3.2.3 for the 11/10 survey
20:25:03 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-79 - Draft a new wording for 3.2.3 for the 11/10 survey [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2008-11-13].
20:26:46 [sharper]
ACTION: sharper Suggest new wordings for 3.3.1 and 3.3.2
20:26:46 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-80 - Suggest new wordings for 3.3.1 and 3.3.2 [on Simon Harper - due 2008-11-13].
20:28:11 [sharper]
allanJ: move open issues for next time.
20:32:22 [Zakim]
-Jan
20:32:23 [Zakim]
-Judy
20:32:23 [Zakim]
-Simon
20:32:27 [Zakim]
-Cantor
20:32:49 [AllanJ]
action: Alan to reword 3.2.4
20:32:51 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-81 - Reword 3.2.4 [on Alan Cantor - due 2008-11-13].
20:33:08 [sharper]
scribenick: AllanJ
20:33:48 [AllanJ]
action: Jeanne to reword 3.2.3
20:33:50 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-82 - Reword 3.2.3 [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2008-11-13].
20:34:48 [AllanJ]
action: Jim to reword 3.3.3
20:34:48 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-83 - Reword 3.3.3 [on Jim Allan - due 2008-11-13].
20:34:50 [jeanne]
zakim, who's here?
20:34:50 [Zakim]
On the phone I see jeanne, allanj
20:34:51 [Zakim]
On IRC I see judy, Zakim, RRSAgent, jeanne, AllanJ, trackbot
20:35:54 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make logs public
20:36:02 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
20:36:02 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-ua-minutes.html jeanne
20:38:42 [Zakim]
-jeanne
20:38:44 [Zakim]
-allanj
20:38:46 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()2:00PM has ended
20:38:47 [Zakim]
Attendees were jeanne, Cantor, allanj, Simon, Jan, Judy
20:47:51 [jeanne]
jeanne has left #ua
22:08:55 [jeanne]
jeanne has joined #ua
22:27:20 [AllanJ]
zakim, bye
22:27:20 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
22:27:27 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, bye
22:27:27 [RRSAgent]
I see 15 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-ua-actions.rdf :
22:27:27 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jeanne Write back to David - re new wording [1]
22:27:27 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-ua-irc#T19-10-37
22:27:27 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jeanne place 'facilitate programmatic access' into survey. [2]
22:27:27 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-ua-irc#T19-27-40
22:27:27 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JS to place the rewording of Principle 2 to "Facilitate programatic access" in next week's survey [3]
22:27:27 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-ua-irc#T19-27-47
22:27:27 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jeanne place Alan's new wording into survey. [4]
22:27:27 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-ua-irc#T19-28-59
22:27:27 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JR to Write a proposal to clarify and perhaps integrate 2.1.2 and 2.1.3 [5]
22:27:27 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-ua-irc#T19-42-58
22:27:27 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JS to add 2.1.4 to the new draft. [6]
22:27:27 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-ua-irc#T19-53-28
22:27:27 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jim to write david concerning clarify comment on 2.1.4 - need more expansion [7]
22:27:27 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-ua-irc#T19-55-34
22:27:27 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JS to delete Guideline and SC for 3.1 [8]
22:27:27 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-ua-irc#T20-09-43
22:27:27 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JS to update 3.2.1 with " Provide a global option to be notified of alternatives..." [9]
22:27:27 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-ua-irc#T20-14-39
22:27:27 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jim to rewrite 3.2.2 to allow user to choose any combination of alternatives to be rendered [10]
22:27:27 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-ua-irc#T20-23-10
22:27:27 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JS to draft a new wording for 3.2.3 for the 11/10 survey [11]
22:27:27 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-ua-irc#T20-25-03
22:27:27 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: sharper Suggest new wordings for 3.3.1 and 3.3.2 [12]
22:27:27 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-ua-irc#T20-26-46
22:27:27 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Alan to reword 3.2.4 [13]
22:27:27 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-ua-irc#T20-32-49
22:27:27 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jeanne to reword 3.2.3 [14]
22:27:27 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-ua-irc#T20-33-48
22:27:27 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jim to reword 3.3.3 [15]
22:27:27 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-ua-irc#T20-34-48
22:27:52 [AllanJ]
AllanJ has left #ua