IRC log of ua on 2008-11-06

Timestamps are in UTC.

18:58:35 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #ua

18:58:35 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-ua-irc

18:58:37 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, make logs public

18:58:37 [Zakim]

Zakim has joined #ua

18:58:39 [trackbot]

Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG

18:58:39 [Zakim]

ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()2:00PM scheduled to start in 2 minutes

18:58:40 [trackbot]

Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference

18:58:40 [trackbot]

Date: 06 November 2008

18:59:30 [jeanne]

zakim, code?

18:59:30 [Zakim]

the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jeanne

18:59:37 [Zakim]

WAI_UAWG()2:00PM has now started

18:59:44 [Zakim]

+jeanne

19:00:53 [Zakim]

+Cantor

19:00:56 [Zakim]

+??P7

19:01:03 [Zakim]

+allanj

19:01:23 [jeanne]

zakim, ??P7 is Simon

19:01:23 [Zakim]

+Simon; got it

19:02:05 [JR]

JR has joined #ua

19:03:00 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

19:03:13 [JR]

zakim, [IPcaller] is really Jan

19:03:14 [Zakim]

+Jan; got it

19:03:38 [sharper]

chair: AllanJ

19:03:52 [sharper]

Scribe: Simon

19:03:57 [AllanJ]

regrets: kelly, mark

19:04:26 [sharper]

ScribeNick: sharper

19:05:20 [AllanJ]

http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/survey20081106/results

19:05:44 [jeanne]

agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008OctDec/0043.html

19:06:42 [sharper]

David Poehlman Comment: The proposal says interface but then goes on to say interface and rendered content. are we talking both? should they be split?

19:07:17 [JR]

q+

19:07:47 [AllanJ]

Alan proposal: 2.1.2 For each user interface component, including the user interface itself and rendered content, make available its name, role, state, value, and description via an accessibility platform architecture.

19:08:04 [sharper]

JR: Looks good

19:08:44 [AllanJ]

+1

19:09:03 [sharper]

Alan C: Should say 'and every' as opposed to each?

19:09:35 [sharper]

JR: Likes the way it is

19:10:37 [sharper]

ACTION: jeanne Write back to David - re new wording

19:10:37 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-69 - Write back to David - re new wording [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2008-11-13].

19:13:52 [AllanJ]

discussion on wording of PRINCIPLE 2. Facilitate access by assistive technologies

19:14:18 [AllanJ]

sharper: assistive technologies seems too limiting

19:14:53 [jeanne]

My concern with removing "assistive technologies" would be introducing new jargon that would not be easily understandable.

19:15:35 [AllanJ]

JR: perhaps a rationale is needed. Change to "facilitate programmatic access"

19:16:59 [judy]

judy has joined #ua

19:17:08 [AllanJ]

JS: need to make intention clear, want to keep 'assistive technologies'

19:17:11 [judy]

zakim, dial judy-office

19:17:11 [Zakim]

ok, judy; the call is being made

19:17:13 [Zakim]

+Judy

19:17:53 [AllanJ]

SH: concern for future of UAs, mobile, etc. programmers know programmatic access

19:18:19 [AllanJ]

...keep assistive technologies for pragmatic reasons

19:20:19 [judy]

judy has changed the topic to: Today's agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008OctDec/0043.html

19:21:58 [AllanJ]

SH: UAAG20 around for long time. should be more general more agnostic

19:22:57 [AllanJ]

... all of principle 2 says programmatic access

19:23:13 [JR]

JR: Jan's point included making sure assistive tech is highlighted in the coming rationale

19:23:34 [AllanJ]

... rationale is assistive technology

19:24:47 [sharper]

AllanJ: Proposes change to programmatic access, but including AT in rationale

19:24:56 [sharper]

+1

19:25:16 [sharper]

SH: +1

19:26:42 [AllanJ]

+1 makes it more general.

19:27:40 [sharper]

ACTION: jeanne place 'facilitate programmatic access' into survey.

19:27:40 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-70 - Place 'facilitate programmatic access' into survey. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2008-11-13].

19:27:47 [jeanne]

action: JS to place the rewording of Principle 2 to "Facilitate programatic access" in next week's survey

19:27:47 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-71 - Place the rewording of Principle 2 to \"Facilitate programatic access\" in next week's survey [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2008-11-13].

19:28:18 [jeanne]

+1

19:28:44 [AllanJ]

2.1.2 For each user interface component, including the user interface itself and rendered content, make available its name, role, state, value, and description via an accessibility platform architecture.

19:28:59 [sharper]

ACTION: jeanne place Alan's new wording into survey.

19:28:59 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-72 - Place Alan's new wording into survey. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2008-11-13].

19:30:51 [sharper]

AllanJ: discussion of 2.1.3

19:31:58 [sharper]

JS: Address David's issue by adding a use case example

19:32:26 [sharper]

Davids Comment: this is unclear, what inaccessible functionality is left?

19:34:02 [sharper]

JS: do we have a use case for this.

19:37:56 [AllanJ]

discussion of interrelationship between 2.1.2 and 2.1.3

19:41:32 [AllanJ]

SH: why does UA have to compensate for accessibility platform architecture

19:42:42 [AllanJ]

JR: UA can do lots of new cool things, but you have to map it some how to the accessibility platform architecture (apa)

19:42:58 [JR]

Action JR: Write a proposal to clarify and perhaps integrate 2.1.2 and 2.1.3

19:42:58 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-73 - Write a proposal to clarify and perhaps integrate 2.1.2 and 2.1.3 [on Jan Richards - due 2008-11-13].

19:44:12 [sharper]

AllanJ: 2.1.4 - everyone agrees with: 2.1.4 If the user agent implements one or more DOMs, make the DOMs programmatically available to assistive technologies.

19:44:38 [sharper]

AllanJ - AC: says "Do we need to specify which assistive technologies? Or to what degree?"

19:44:58 [sharper]

... something like ' "... make the DOM or DOMs programmatically available to assistive technologies to the greatest extent possible??'

19:45:41 [sharper]

JR: we need to make it just programmatically available?

19:45:56 [JR]

Q+

19:46:13 [sharper]

AC: AT can do different things - do we expect developers to understand AT?

19:46:50 [sharper]

AllanJ: Do we need to change AT to accessibility platform architectures

19:47:17 [jeanne]

q+ to suggest that if a functionality works in only one modality (e.g. vision or mouse) then...

19:47:28 [JR]

q-

19:47:40 [jeanne]

ack jeanne

19:47:40 [Zakim]

jeanne, you wanted to suggest that if a functionality works in only one modality (e.g. vision or mouse) then...

19:47:42 [sharper]

JR: programmatic access aims reduce the amount developers will need to know about AT

19:48:51 [sharper]

JS: More about functionality that is available in one modality, and the need for multiple modalities.

19:49:28 [sharper]

AllanJ: Everything needs to be in the DOM - this will handle different modailities

19:49:52 [sharper]

\me LET ME KNOW IF I'M GETTING THE NAMES WRONG PLEASE.

19:51:58 [sharper]

General Discussion regarding the interplay between API pipe, DOM, AT and accessibility platform

19:52:21 [jeanne]

do we need 2.1.3 at all then?

19:52:35 [sharper]

AllanJ: In Conclusion DOM must be available to AT

19:52:48 [jeanne]

s/2.1.3/2.1.4

19:53:01 [sharper]

AllanJ: Proposes 2.1.4 is complete

19:53:04 [sharper]

All Agree

19:53:28 [jeanne]

action: JS to add 2.1.4 to the new draft.

19:53:28 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-74 - Add 2.1.4 to the new draft. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2008-11-13].

19:54:52 [sharper]

Judy: can we ask David Poehlman to clarify his comment 'cannot accept, advise or reject.'

19:55:34 [AllanJ]

action: jim to write david concerning clarify comment on 2.1.4 - need more expansion

19:55:34 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-75 - Write david concerning clarify comment on 2.1.4 - need more expansion [on Jim Allan - due 2008-11-13].

19:57:20 [sharper]

item 3 3. Work on language of Principal 3 success criteria.

19:57:21 [sharper]

- establish style rules for document

19:57:21 [sharper]

- Issue 16 - Relook at the phrasing of Principle 3 to ensure

19:57:42 [sharper]

clarity.

19:58:10 [sharper]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/16

19:58:11 [sharper]

- establish replacement wording for 'chrome' (SC 3.10.11, and

19:58:11 [sharper]

elsewhere, Issue 2 - http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/2)

19:58:25 [jeanne]

q?

20:01:28 [sharper]

from stored data

20:01:29 [sharper]

>From my mail 10. Principle 3, in particular 3.1 needs to be more clear. I�ve mentioned on a few calls how the user interface does a lot visually to convey meaning. I don�t think these guidelines give enough detail on what needs to happen or the expectation around accessibility. User agents today do a lot to convey state from security to page functionality with unique UI elements. AT jumps around loads of hoops today to convey this info.

20:01:43 [sharper]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008OctDec/att-0026/00-part

20:02:25 [AllanJ]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2008/WD-UAAG20-20081022/WD-UAAG20-20081022.html#principle-perceivable

20:03:47 [sharper]

Previous Discussion:

20:03:48 [sharper]

RINCIPLE 3: Ensure that the user interface is perceivable

20:03:48 [sharper]

JAllan: Anyone have any general problems with the wording?

20:03:49 [sharper]

none heard.

20:03:49 [sharper]

Now looking at Guideline 3.1 Provide text alternatives for non-text components

20:03:50 [sharper]

group is ok with general wording.

20:03:50 [sharper]

JR: I wanted to comment on something we found in ATAG. The item one that says you need to cover the accessibility of your platform is likely to cover this.

20:03:52 [sharper]

Jeanne: I wanted to ensure we covered the accessibility of documentation.

20:03:54 [sharper]

>From my mail 10. Principle 3, in particular 3.1 needs to be more clear. I�ve mentioned on a few calls how the user interface does a lot visually to convey meaning. I don�t think these guidelines give enough detail on what needs to happen or the expectation around accessibility. User agents today do a lot to convey state from security to page functionality with unique UI elements. AT jumps around loads of hoops today to convey this info.

20:03:59 [sharper]

<jallan> KF: should keep, need to be a bit explicit, to make sure the point gets across

20:04:01 [sharper]

More discussion about whether 3.1 is covered in guideline 1.

20:04:03 [sharper]

<jallan> KF: user interface everything is labeled and available programatically

20:04:05 [sharper]

<jallan> ... the UA could do more to make the information available.

20:04:07 [sharper]

<jallan> JA: 3.1.1 does not say make information available programatically

20:04:09 [sharper]

<jallan> JR: should be in Principal 2

20:04:11 [sharper]

<jallan> JA: information is available passively, the user must request the security state, rss feed, etc.

20:04:13 [sharper]

kford more discussion about this.

20:04:15 [sharper]

<jallan> ... do we need some SC to allow option to provide overview of current states in the UA

20:04:17 [sharper]

JR: I think principle two would cover most of this.

20:04:19 [sharper]

<jallan> JS: this is needed for low vision people.

20:04:22 [sharper]

kford: kford and Jeanne think principle three needs to be strengthened.

20:04:24 [sharper]

<jallan> ... ARIA has section on passive alerts, perhaps we need something like that

20:04:25 [sharper]

JAllan: we've talked a lot about screen readers. Visually you glance around.

20:04:27 [sharper]

... if this is all available programatically, isn't it then the AT's job to grab this info.

20:04:29 [sharper]

<jallan> KF: what is the state, what is important, the UA has gone through the effort to provide an icon. How is the user to decide what is important

20:04:32 [sharper]

<jallan> ... I am missing the gestalt of the information

20:04:35 [sharper]

<scribe> ACTION: kford jeanne to add guideline in 3.1 around improving perceivability [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/21-ua-minutes.html#action01]

20:04:38 [sharper]

<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - kford

20:04:39 [sharper]

<jeanne> ACTION: KF to KF and JS to write proposal for Guideline 3.1 improving perceivability of user interface and passive status. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/21-ua-minutes.html#action02]

20:04:42 [sharper]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-48 - KF and JS to write proposal for Guideline 3.1 improving perceivability of user interface and passive status. [on Kelly Ford - due 2008-10-28].

20:04:45 [sharper]

<jallan> JR: add to examples, kinds of important state information

20:04:47 [sharper]

JR: I think we need to add to examples, some of what kford was saying about important state in modern browsers.

20:04:49 [sharper]

JAllan: 3.1.1 needs to reveal info programatically and there needs to be some mechanism to provide a overview of important state items.

20:04:53 [sharper]

Guideline 3.2 Provide access to alternative content

20:04:54 [sharper]

JR: I have a long standing general concern about mixing content and user interface.

20:04:56 [sharper]

JAllan restates JR's concern.

20:04:58 [sharper]

JS: This goes back to what I was saying in the beginning about the overall principle. This talks about content and user interface.

20:05:02 [sharper]

JR: You either split into two principles or expand scope of the current principle.

20:05:04 [sharper]

JAllan: I prefer to keep one principle if possible.

20:05:05 [sharper]

Jeanne: We need to ensure any author controls like ARIA are perceivable.

20:05:07 [sharper]

<jallan> JA: the user agent provides a user interface to allow access to the author provided alternative content

20:05:10 [sharper]

kford: I think we need to expand the scope of principle 3.

20:05:11 [sharper]

... Today the web author can easily extend what's traditionally thought of of the user agent

20:05:13 [sharper]

<jeanne> http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/CR-WCAG20-20080430/#perceivable

20:05:15 [sharper]

<jeanne> I think we should use the WCAG wording:

20:05:18 [sharper]

<Jan> PRINCIPLE 3: Perceivable - The user agent's user interface and rendered content must be presented to users in ways they can perceive

20:05:21 [sharper]

<jeanne> issue: relook at the phrasing of Principle 3 to ensure clarity.

20:05:23 [sharper]

<trackbot> Created ISSUE-16 - Relook at the phrasing of Principle 3 to ensure clarity. ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/16/edit .

20:07:16 [sharper]

AllanJ: Leave Issue 16 and move to success criteria starting at 3.1.1

20:08:40 [sharper]

JR: scrap 3.1.1 and concentrate on criteria primarily related to user agents not other kinds of software

20:08:51 [sharper]

AllanJ: as it is covered in principle 1

20:08:54 [jeanne]

+1 to deleting 3.1

20:09:20 [sharper]

SH: +1

20:09:24 [AllanJ]

+1

20:09:26 [sharper]

AC: +1

20:09:38 [sharper]

JB: +1

20:09:43 [jeanne]

Action: JS to delete Guideline and SC for 3.1

20:09:43 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-76 - Delete Guideline and SC for 3.1 [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2008-11-13].

20:10:09 [sharper]

AllanJ: 3.2.1 The user has the global option to be notified of alternatives to rendered content (e.g., short text alternatives, long descriptions, captions)

20:10:42 [AllanJ]

STYLE Note - action verbs

20:10:46 [sharper]

jeanne: refresh... rephrasing so everything starts with an action verb

20:11:29 [jeanne]

Provide a global option to be notified of alternatives...

20:11:45 [sharper]

Discussion: ensure or provide?

20:12:15 [sharper]

AllanJ: Ensure

20:12:18 [jeanne]

+1 to provide

20:12:26 [AllanJ]

=1 provide

20:12:29 [sharper]

AC: Provide

20:12:38 [JR]

JR: Provide

20:13:20 [jeanne]

s/=1 provide/+1 provide

20:13:28 [sharper]

SH: Ensure

20:14:31 [sharper]

AllanJ: 3.2.1 done, choice is 'provide'.

20:14:39 [jeanne]

action: JS to update 3.2.1 with " Provide a global option to be notified of alternatives..."

20:14:39 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-77 - Update 3.2.1 with \" Provide a global option to be notified of alternatives...\" [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2008-11-13].

20:15:07 [AllanJ]

Provide a global option for the user to be notified of alternatives to rendered content (e.g., short text alternatives, long descriptions, captions)

20:15:17 [sharper]

AllanJ: Moving on to '3.2.2 Configurable Default Rendering: The user has the global option to set preferences for which alternative(s) are rendered by default. (Level A)'

20:15:29 [Alan]

Alan has joined #ua

20:16:15 [JR]

+1

20:16:21 [Alan]

OK

20:16:40 [AllanJ]

Provide a global option for the user to set preferences for which alternative(s) are rendered by default.

20:18:03 [JR]

q+

20:18:47 [AllanJ]

SH: if user can choose all alternatives to be rendered, how do we communicate that to the developer, that the user is to have a choice

20:22:40 [JR]

q-

20:23:10 [AllanJ]

action: jim to rewrite 3.2.2 to allow user to choose any combination of alternatives to be rendered

20:23:10 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-78 - Rewrite 3.2.2 to allow user to choose any combination of alternatives to be rendered [on Jim Allan - due 2008-11-13].

20:25:03 [jeanne]

action: JS to draft a new wording for 3.2.3 for the 11/10 survey

20:25:03 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-79 - Draft a new wording for 3.2.3 for the 11/10 survey [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2008-11-13].

20:26:46 [sharper]

ACTION: sharper Suggest new wordings for 3.3.1 and 3.3.2

20:26:46 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-80 - Suggest new wordings for 3.3.1 and 3.3.2 [on Simon Harper - due 2008-11-13].

20:28:11 [sharper]

allanJ: move open issues for next time.

20:32:22 [Zakim]

-Jan

20:32:23 [Zakim]

-Judy

20:32:23 [Zakim]

-Simon

20:32:27 [Zakim]

-Cantor

20:32:49 [AllanJ]

action: Alan to reword 3.2.4

20:32:51 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-81 - Reword 3.2.4 [on Alan Cantor - due 2008-11-13].

20:33:08 [sharper]

scribenick: AllanJ

20:33:48 [AllanJ]

action: Jeanne to reword 3.2.3

20:33:50 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-82 - Reword 3.2.3 [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2008-11-13].

20:34:48 [AllanJ]

action: Jim to reword 3.3.3

20:34:48 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-83 - Reword 3.3.3 [on Jim Allan - due 2008-11-13].

20:34:50 [jeanne]

zakim, who's here?

20:34:50 [Zakim]

On the phone I see jeanne, allanj

20:34:51 [Zakim]

On IRC I see judy, Zakim, RRSAgent, jeanne, AllanJ, trackbot

20:35:54 [jeanne]

rrsagent, make logs public

20:36:02 [jeanne]

rrsagent, make minutes

20:36:02 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-ua-minutes.html jeanne

20:38:42 [Zakim]

-jeanne

20:38:44 [Zakim]

-allanj

20:38:46 [Zakim]

WAI_UAWG()2:00PM has ended

20:38:47 [Zakim]

Attendees were jeanne, Cantor, allanj, Simon, Jan, Judy

20:47:51 [jeanne]

jeanne has left #ua

22:08:55 [jeanne]

jeanne has joined #ua

22:27:20 [AllanJ]

zakim, bye

22:27:20 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #ua

22:27:27 [AllanJ]

rrsagent, bye

22:27:27 [RRSAgent]

I see 15 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-ua-actions.rdf :

22:27:27 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: jeanne Write back to David - re new wording [1]

22:27:27 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-ua-irc#T19-10-37

22:27:27 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: jeanne place 'facilitate programmatic access' into survey. [2]

22:27:27 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-ua-irc#T19-27-40

22:27:27 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: JS to place the rewording of Principle 2 to "Facilitate programatic access" in next week's survey [3]

22:27:27 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-ua-irc#T19-27-47

22:27:27 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: jeanne place Alan's new wording into survey. [4]

22:27:27 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-ua-irc#T19-28-59

22:27:27 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: JR to Write a proposal to clarify and perhaps integrate 2.1.2 and 2.1.3 [5]

22:27:27 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-ua-irc#T19-42-58

22:27:27 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: JS to add 2.1.4 to the new draft. [6]

22:27:27 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-ua-irc#T19-53-28

22:27:27 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: jim to write david concerning clarify comment on 2.1.4 - need more expansion [7]

22:27:27 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-ua-irc#T19-55-34

22:27:27 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: JS to delete Guideline and SC for 3.1 [8]

22:27:27 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-ua-irc#T20-09-43

22:27:27 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: JS to update 3.2.1 with " Provide a global option to be notified of alternatives..." [9]

22:27:27 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-ua-irc#T20-14-39

22:27:27 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: jim to rewrite 3.2.2 to allow user to choose any combination of alternatives to be rendered [10]

22:27:27 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-ua-irc#T20-23-10

22:27:27 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: JS to draft a new wording for 3.2.3 for the 11/10 survey [11]

22:27:27 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-ua-irc#T20-25-03

22:27:27 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: sharper Suggest new wordings for 3.3.1 and 3.3.2 [12]

22:27:27 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-ua-irc#T20-26-46

22:27:27 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Alan to reword 3.2.4 [13]

22:27:27 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-ua-irc#T20-32-49

22:27:27 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Jeanne to reword 3.2.3 [14]

22:27:27 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-ua-irc#T20-33-48

22:27:27 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Jim to reword 3.3.3 [15]

22:27:27 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-ua-irc#T20-34-48

22:27:52 [AllanJ]

AllanJ has left #ua