IRC log of rdfa on 2008-11-06

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:47:57 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #rdfa

15:47:57 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-irc

15:48:05 [Zakim]

Zakim has joined #rdfa

15:48:15 [msporny]

zakim, this will be rdfa

15:48:15 [Zakim]

ok, msporny; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start in 12 minutes

15:48:25 [msporny]

Scribe: Manu_Sporny

15:48:33 [msporny]

ScribeNick: msporny

15:48:43 [msporny]

Meeting: RDF in XHTML Task Force

15:48:53 [msporny]

Chair: Ben_Adida

15:49:05 [msporny]

rrsagent, make log public

15:49:10 [msporny]

rrsagent, draft minutes

15:49:10 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html msporny

15:50:00 [msporny]

previous: http://www.w3.org/2008/10/30-rdfa-minutes.html

15:50:09 [msporny]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Nov/0003.html

15:50:13 [msporny]

rrsagent, draft minutes

15:50:13 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html msporny

15:50:24 [Ralph]

Ralph has joined #rdfa

15:50:43 [msporny]

Present: Manu_Sporny, Ralph_Swick

15:51:56 [msporny]

Seemingly, this is the only ball I can handle right now, the rest of them are on the floor :)

15:51:58 [Ralph]

Regrets: Steven

15:55:54 [Steeeven]

Steeeven has joined #rdfa

15:59:05 [Zakim]

SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started

15:59:12 [Zakim]

+Ralph

16:00:40 [Zakim]

+??P5

16:00:47 [msporny]

zakim, I am ??P5

16:00:47 [Zakim]

+msporny; got it

16:03:23 [benadida]

benadida has joined #rdfa

16:03:35 [Zakim]

+Ben_Adida

16:03:44 [msporny]

Present+ Ben_Adida

16:05:31 [markbirbeck]

just finishing another call...there in a moment. :)

16:08:47 [markbirbeck]

zakim, code?

16:08:47 [Zakim]

the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck

16:09:41 [Zakim]

+markbirbeck

16:09:48 [msporny]

Topic: Action Item Review

16:10:37 [msporny]

Present+ Mark_Birbeck

16:11:29 [markbirbeck]

My phone is clicking a lot this side. If others can hear it, let me know, and I'll dial back in.

16:11:51 [markbirbeck]

thanks

16:12:27 [msporny]

ACTION: Jeremy to demonstrate GRDDL with XHTML/RDFa once the NS URI is set up. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action03]

16:12:31 [msporny]

-- continues

16:12:37 [msporny]

ACTION: Manu talk with Jamie McCarthy about an AskSlashdot piece [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action04]

16:12:40 [msporny]

-- continues

16:13:30 [msporny]

benadida: Had dinner with Steve from Digg.

16:13:51 [msporny]

benadida: They're very interested in coordinating with other news sites to come up with a social news vocabulary.

16:14:48 [msporny]

Manu: SIOC was published as W3C member submission.

16:15:00 [msporny]

benadida: That would be good to get social news sites to adopt SIOC.

16:15:11 [Ralph]

-> http://www.w3.org/Submission/2007/02/ SIOC Member Submission

16:15:37 [Ralph]

-> http://www.w3.org/Submission/2007/SUBM-sioc-spec-20070612/ SOTD for SIOC

16:15:41 [msporny]

Ralph: There's a sioc-dev that we could send comments into.

16:15:52 [Ralph]

-> http://groups.google.com/group/sioc-dev/topics SIOC-dev list

16:16:05 [msporny]

Ralph: That would be a good place to start the conversation.

16:16:17 [msporny]

ACTION: Manu to create SVG Tiny draft comment and send to RDFa list for feedback before sending to SVG Tiny workgroup. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/09-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]

16:16:19 [msporny]

-- done

16:17:15 [Ralph]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Oct/0110.html "[LC] Official SVG Tiny Working Draft Comments from W3C RDF in XHTML Task Force" [Manu 2008-10-10]

16:17:25 [Ralph]

s/10-10/10-09

16:17:30 [msporny]

ACTION: Manu to create two TCs to test fragment identifiers dropped during URI resolution against [base] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/09-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]

16:18:18 [msporny]

-- continues

16:18:25 [msporny]

ACTION: Manu to write summary for Semantic Web Use Cases for Ivan. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]

16:18:27 [msporny]

-- continues

16:18:35 [msporny]

ACTION: Manu write the perl code for Slashdot. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]

16:18:40 [msporny]

-- continues

16:18:54 [msporny]

ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]

16:19:04 [msporny]

-- continues

16:19:10 [msporny]

ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]

16:19:13 [msporny]

-- continues

16:19:19 [msporny]

ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]

16:19:22 [msporny]

-- continues

16:19:31 [msporny]

ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]

16:19:37 [msporny]

-- continues

16:19:57 [msporny]

Manu: Ralph, your action's solution might be SIOC.

16:20:26 [msporny]

Ralph: Yes, there might be more, but SIOC might solve a decent bit of the problem.

16:21:12 [msporny]

Topic: Ongoing maintenance of wiki/documentation

16:21:47 [msporny]

benadida: Right now Mark has some actions to write FOAF examples.

16:21:54 [msporny]

benadida: Any other immediate need for documentation?

16:22:24 [Ralph]

Manu: the examples with digg and drupal ...

16:22:43 [Ralph]

... we might take some of the postings that have been sent to the mailing list and copy them to the wiki

16:23:45 [msporny]

Manu: Seems that most of the interest has been in social news and CMS systems so far.

16:24:58 [msporny]

benadida: There might be some interest with publications.

16:25:07 [msporny]

benadida: Perhaps we can edit the wiki down.

16:26:46 [benadida]

ACTION: Ben to add public-rdfa examples to wiki and think of slightly improved top-level organization

16:27:00 [Ralph]

-> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/ SemWeb Home Page

16:27:46 [msporny]

benadida: Could we add "RDFa News and Updates", and "RDFa Wiki" under the RDFa section.

16:27:46 [Ralph]

what path do we want folk to follow to get to http://rdfa.info/ ?

16:27:56 [msporny]

benadida: We should also have the primer in there somewhere.

16:29:04 [msporny]

benadida: Adding those links should be good.

16:30:01 [Ralph]

Manu: for editing utilities, I cited fuzzbot

16:30:16 [Ralph]

... would be nice to have a bigger collection of utilities

16:30:33 [Ralph]

-> http://www.commonsdesign.org/fuzzbot/ Fuzzbot

16:30:47 [Ralph]

Manu: especially a set of tools that supports a full publishing cycle

16:30:59 [Ralph]

Ben: I use the bookmarklets for this. What more is needed?

16:31:15 [Ralph]

Manu: if we believe folks should use the bookmarklets more to do editing, we should publicize this

16:31:20 [msporny]

s/www.commonsdesign.org/rdfa.digitalbazaar.com/g

16:31:33 [Ralph]

[apologies, Manu]

16:32:27 [benadida]

ACTION: Ben to put up information on "how to write RDFa" with screencast possibly and instructions on bookmarklet.

16:32:50 [Ralph]

-> https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/8736 Fuzzbot 0.8.3

16:34:01 [Ralph]

Manu: we could make a tools request list

16:34:28 [Ralph]

... especially tools that work across all platforms

16:35:04 [Ralph]

-> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/rdfa-bookmarklet/ bookmarklets?

16:35:32 [Ralph]

Ben: that's out of date; it cites -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/impl/js/

16:35:59 [msporny]

benadida: That's the latest.

16:36:24 [Ralph]

-> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/ old, out-of-date TF page

16:36:26 [msporny]

Ralph: We've got a number of stale pages around.

16:36:54 [msporny]

benadida: I should fix that page.

16:36:57 [benadida]

ACTION: Ben to fix old task force page to point to new TF page.

16:37:30 [Ralph]

s/fix/add forward pointer to

16:37:44 [msporny]

benadida: It would be good to clean that.

16:38:10 [msporny]

benadida: We might want to have a new test case.

16:38:36 [msporny]

benadida: Where the empty string is null.

16:38:54 [msporny]

Manu: Do you have a test case in mind for that?

16:39:07 [benadida]

<a href="foo.html"><span about="" property="dc:creator">Ben</span></a>

16:39:13 [msporny]

benadida: It's an issue in Javascript, or any language where the empty string could be construed as NULL.

16:39:36 [Ralph]

[Ben is noting a coding style trap in javascript]

16:39:36 [msporny]

benadida: you would expect the previous example to set the creator of the current page.

16:40:22 [msporny]

benadida: It was only in the case of emtpy @about where the chaining didn't happen correctly.

16:40:30 [benadida]

ACTION: Manu to add test case for empty @about inside a chain

16:40:45 [Ralph]

i.e. an empty attribute value is not the same as an absent attribute

16:40:52 [msporny]

Topic: Recent and Upcoming Talks

16:41:08 [Ralph]

Manu: I'm speaking at Web Directions North in January

16:41:18 [Ralph]

... giving a 4-hour workshop on RDFa

16:41:35 [Steeeven]

I spoke at the TPAC

16:41:39 [Steeeven]

last talk of the dayy

16:41:39 [Ralph]

-> http://north.webdirections.org/ web directions north

16:42:41 [markbirbeck]

http://www.idealliance.org/xml2008/schedule-details.asp#gov8

16:42:45 [msporny]

markbirbeck: I submitted a talk on RDFa, I'm on a panel on Semantic Web and Goverment

16:42:49 [Ralph]

-> http://www.w3.org/2008/Talks/10-22-steven-website/ "Why you should have a Web Site" [Steven, W3C Technical Plenary talk 2008-10-22]

16:43:20 [msporny]

markbirbeck: It's normally called XML 2007, but now it's XML in Practice.

16:43:27 [msporny]

markbirbeck: I did an RDFa talk there last year.

16:44:13 [msporny]

benadida: I've been invited to talk at the Interlab Conference at a Semantic Web Panel

16:44:18 [markbirbeck]

I should say that last year I did a *lightning* talk on RDFa...so this is a step up. :)

16:44:36 [msporny]

benadida: it's a panel on how the semantic web is getting real.

16:44:47 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph

16:45:04 [msporny]

benadida: Important that if you have slides you're willing to share. Under Creative Commons for example.

16:45:26 [msporny]

benadida: If you're looking for the longer presentations, they're on my website.

16:45:45 [markbirbeck]

http://www.online-information.co.uk/online08/conference_presentation_2008.html?presentation_id=357

16:46:11 [msporny]

markbirbeck: I've been asked to chair a session.

16:46:39 [msporny]

markbirbeck: I've been asked to chair a panel - it's good for RDFa because they think it'll be a major part of the discussion.

16:49:08 [Ralph]

-> http://www.w3.org/2008/Talks/1026-ISCW-RDFa/ "RDFa - Bridging the Web of Documents and the Web of Data" [ISWC tutorial by Michael, Ivan, Ben]

16:49:55 [msporny]

Topic: Potential Improvements to RDFa

16:50:08 [msporny]

benadida: I was speaking primarily to the @prefix attribute.

16:50:30 [benadida]

--> http://rdfa.info/wiki/RDFainHTML4

16:50:35 [msporny]

benadida: Specifically, what Shane has written on the Wiki.

16:51:20 [Ralph]

scribenick: ralph

16:51:26 [msporny]

Manu: prefix="ns=http://blah.com/"

16:51:28 [Ralph]

Manu: we've talked about several cases

16:51:35 [Ralph]

s/cases/possibilities

16:51:42 [Ralph]

... a space-separated list of items

16:51:47 [msporny]

Manu: prefix="=http://example.org/vocab"

16:51:48 [Ralph]

... a default namespace

16:51:55 [msporny]

Manu: prefix="http://example.org/vocab"

16:52:01 [Ralph]

... the case of eliding the '='

16:52:11 [msporny]

Manu: prefix="ex=http://example.org/vocab"

16:52:18 [Ralph]

... last conversation with Shane the idea was to have @prefix support all of these cases

16:52:51 [Ralph]

... @prefix="a=b" matches the current xmlns case

16:52:53 [msporny]

Manu: prefix="http://myvocab.org/vocab"

16:53:03 [Ralph]

... question of how to denote things we want the parser to fetch

16:53:30 [Ralph]

... objective is to have the parser load vocabulary-specific triples [from a URI]

16:53:38 [Ralph]

... similar to @profile

16:53:56 [Ralph]

... we were unsure whether GRDDL would be OK with reusing @profile elsewhere

16:54:10 [Ralph]

Ben: GRDDL doesn't own @profile

16:54:34 [Ralph]

... the 3 cases Manu cites are noted in http://rdfa.info/wiki/RDFainHTML4

16:54:40 [benadida]

third case prefix="=http://creativecommons.org/ns#"

16:54:58 [Ralph]

Ben: I'm not wild about that last syntax

16:55:15 [Ralph]

... ="= just looks like mal-formed syntax to me

16:55:32 [Ralph]

Mark: and using this functionality for loading special vocabularies feels wrong to me

16:55:47 [Ralph]

... I don't think we should overload @prefix; @profile is for this purpose

16:56:16 [Ralph]

... I'm also not wild about the default namespace syntax

16:56:22 [Ralph]

... but I'm not sure we need a default namespace

16:56:43 [Ralph]

... I've been working on the token idea and the more I do the more it has evolved

16:57:10 [Ralph]

... the idea of having a vocabulary with a list of terms is not suited to all situations; sometimes you just want a list of tokens

16:57:23 [Ralph]

... I'm no longer convinced we should encourage unprefixed CURIEs

16:57:47 [Ralph]

Ben: so 'foo' and 'bar' might map to terms from different vocabularies, with completely different URIs?

16:57:48 [Ralph]

Mark: yes

16:58:35 [Ralph]

... this use of [unprefixed] tokens is the big innovation in microformats

16:58:49 [Ralph]

... I think we should embrace this and provide the underpinning that makes it possible

16:59:06 [Ralph]

... N3 allows a "predicate" of 'a' which maps to rdf:type

16:59:43 [Ralph]

Ralph: but N3 did not do this in an extensible way; 'a' is a hard-wired keyword

16:59:50 [Ralph]

Mark: yes, but we can fit that into a new mindset

17:00:10 [Ralph]

... we could say that 'a' is a CURIE and we provide a mapping to its URI

17:00:26 [Ralph]

... and we can also allow 'license' to map to a different URI

17:00:33 [Ralph]

... where 'a' and 'license' co-exist nicely

17:00:58 [Ralph]

... if we keep @prefix simple we'll avoid lots of arguments

17:01:11 [Ralph]

Ben: I believe we agree that @prefix plays the same role as @xmlns

17:02:31 [msporny]

Ralph: I spoke with Shane a bit ago and it's possible that @prefix does not directly map to xmlns.

17:02:44 [msporny]

Ralph: Shane thought that there might be some issues with that.

17:02:57 [msporny]

benadida: The only thing where it might be an issue is declaring something in HEAD

17:03:40 [Ralph]

s/a bit/a while

17:04:27 [msporny]

benadida: We want to make markup simpler - so when we compare Microformats to RDFa, people don't see that RDFa is very complicated.

17:04:40 [Ralph]

i/Ralph: I spoke/scribenick: msporny

17:04:47 [msporny]

benadida: There are several ways you can do that - reserved words, token-based approach.

17:04:54 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph

17:05:14 [msporny]

benadida: I think we're going to have to pick one.

17:05:37 [msporny]

benadida: if we pick more than one, it might make things more difficult.

17:06:18 [Ralph]

[I very much like the idea that the documents that define lists of tokens use RDFa to define those lists]

17:06:26 [msporny]

markbirbeck: I don't think they're mutually exclusive.

17:06:34 [msporny]

benadida: We need to continue this discussion.

17:06:35 [Steeeven]

+1 to ralph

17:07:49 [msporny]

benadida: We should focus on documentation and simplified RDFa using @prefix/@profile.

17:08:16 [Ralph]

Ben: we should prototype in our implementations before proposing any formal change

17:09:05 [Ralph]

Mark: my solution only requires RDFa to add @profile and most of the work is pushed into the CURIE spec

17:09:42 [Ralph]

... the token language in the RDFa spec intentionally leaves room for this

17:10:07 [Ralph]

Ben: I wouldn't want to ask RDFa parsers to have to look to CURIE spec for lots of new rules

17:10:42 [Ralph]

... but I like the look of Mark's syntax

17:11:10 [Ralph]

... I especially like not having to load everything into @prefix

17:15:51 [Ralph]

next meeting: 20 November

17:16:17 [Zakim]

-Ralph

17:16:18 [Zakim]

-msporny

17:16:19 [Zakim]

-markbirbeck

17:16:20 [Zakim]

SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended

17:16:21 [Zakim]

Attendees were Ralph, msporny, Ben_Adida, markbirbeck

17:16:25 [Steeeven]

Steeeven has left #rdfa

17:16:27 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph

17:16:49 [Ralph]

zakim, bye

17:16:49 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #rdfa

17:16:55 [Ralph]

rrsagent, bye

17:16:55 [RRSAgent]

I see 14 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-actions.rdf :

17:16:55 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Jeremy to demonstrate GRDDL with XHTML/RDFa once the NS URI is set up. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action03] [1]

17:16:55 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-irc#T16-12-27

17:16:55 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Manu talk with Jamie McCarthy about an AskSlashdot piece [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action04] [2]

17:16:55 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-irc#T16-12-37

17:16:55 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Manu to create SVG Tiny draft comment and send to RDFa list for feedback before sending to SVG Tiny workgroup. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/09-rdfa-minutes.html#action11] [3]

17:16:55 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-irc#T16-16-17

17:16:55 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Manu to create two TCs to test fragment identifiers dropped during URI resolution against [base] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/09-rdfa-minutes.html#action13] [4]

17:16:55 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-irc#T16-17-30

17:16:55 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Manu to write summary for Semantic Web Use Cases for Ivan. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09] [5]

17:16:55 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-irc#T16-18-25

17:16:55 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Manu write the perl code for Slashdot. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action11] [6]

17:16:55 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-irc#T16-18-35

17:16:55 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12] [7]

17:16:55 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-irc#T16-18-54

17:16:55 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13] [8]

17:16:55 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-irc#T16-19-10

17:16:55 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14] [9]

17:16:55 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-irc#T16-19-19

17:16:55 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15] [10]

17:16:55 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-irc#T16-19-31

17:16:55 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ben to add public-rdfa examples to wiki and think of slightly improved top-level organization [11]

17:16:55 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-irc#T16-26-46

17:16:55 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ben to put up information on "how to write RDFa" with screencast possibly and instructions on bookmarklet. [12]

17:16:55 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-irc#T16-32-27

17:16:55 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ben to fix old task force page to point to new TF page. [13]

17:16:55 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-irc#T16-36-57

17:16:55 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Manu to add test case for empty @about inside a chain [14]

17:16:55 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-irc#T16-40-30