17:57:44 RRSAgent has joined #owl 17:57:44 logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/11/05-owl-irc 17:57:59 MarkusK_ has joined #owl 17:58:01 zakim, who is here? 17:58:01 sorry, pfps, I don't know what conference this is 17:58:02 IanH has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Teleconference.2008.11.05/Agenda 17:58:03 On IRC I see MarkusK_, RRSAgent, Zakim, IanH, Elisa, Carsten, Rinke, pfps, alanr, ewallace, sandro, trackbot 17:58:08 zakim, this is owlwg 17:58:08 ok, pfps; that matches SW_OWL()1:00PM 17:58:15 +Elisa_Kendall 17:58:16 zakim, who is here? 17:58:17 On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, Elisa_Kendall 17:58:18 On IRC I see MarkusK_, RRSAgent, Zakim, IanH, Elisa, Carsten, Rinke, pfps, alanr, ewallace, sandro, trackbot 17:58:55 + +31.20.525.aaaa 17:59:00 bmotik has joined #owl 17:59:00 zakim, aaa is me 17:59:00 sorry, Rinke, I do not recognize a party named 'aaa' 17:59:06 zakim, aaaa is me 17:59:07 +Ian_Horrocks 17:59:07 +Rinke; got it 17:59:21 scribe Elisa 17:59:21 +??P9 17:59:23 zakim, Ian_Horrocks is IanH 17:59:23 +IanH; got it 17:59:30 Zakim, ??P9 is me 17:59:30 +bmotik; got it 17:59:32 zakim, who is here? 17:59:32 On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, Elisa_Kendall, Rinke, IanH, bmotik 17:59:33 scribenick Elisa 17:59:33 scribenick elisa 17:59:34 Zakim, mute me 17:59:34 On IRC I see bmotik, MarkusK_, RRSAgent, Zakim, IanH, Elisa, Carsten, Rinke, pfps, alanr, ewallace, sandro, trackbot 17:59:36 bmotik should now be muted 17:59:58 ScribeNick: Elisa 17:59:59 scribenick: elisa 18:00:25 msmith has joined #owl 18:00:31 zakim, who is here? 18:00:40 ivan has joined #owl 18:00:41 On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, Elisa_Kendall, Rinke, IanH, bmotik (muted) 18:00:45 rrsagent, make records public 18:00:49 +Tony 18:00:52 zakim, dial ivan-voip 18:01:00 On IRC I see ivan, msmith, bmotik, MarkusK_, RRSAgent, Zakim, IanH, Elisa, Carsten, Rinke, pfps, alanr, ewallace, sandro, trackbot 18:01:07 ok, ivan; the call is being made 18:01:10 +Ivan 18:01:26 +??P11 18:01:48 + +1.202.408.aabb 18:02:07 dlm has joined #owl 18:02:40 Achille has joined #owl 18:02:51 zakim, who is here? 18:02:51 On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, Elisa_Kendall, Rinke, IanH, bmotik (muted), Tony, Ivan, MarkusK_, msmith 18:02:54 On IRC I see Achille, dlm, ivan, msmith, bmotik, MarkusK_, RRSAgent, Zakim, IanH, Elisa, Carsten, Rinke, pfps, alanr, ewallace, sandro, trackbot 18:03:00 +[IBM] 18:03:13 Zakim, IBM is me 18:03:13 +Achille; got it 18:03:16 bcuencagrau has joined #owl 18:03:48 topic: Admin 18:04:28 zakim, who is here? 18:04:28 On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, Elisa_Kendall, Rinke, IanH, bmotik (muted), Tony, Ivan, MarkusK_, msmith, Achille 18:04:31 On IRC I see bcuencagrau, Achille, dlm, ivan, msmith, bmotik, MarkusK_, RRSAgent, Zakim, IanH, Elisa, Carsten, Rinke, pfps, alanr, ewallace, sandro, trackbot 18:04:32 +Tony.a 18:04:33 uli has joined #owl 18:04:34 +??P15 18:04:39 agenda amendments? 18:04:51 schneid has joined #owl 18:04:53 Zakim, ??P15 is me 18:04:53 +bcuencagrau; got it 18:05:01 Zakim, mute me 18:05:01 bcuencagrau should now be muted 18:05:06 +Alan 18:05:17 15 oct minutes look OK 18:05:18 +??P19 18:05:21 +Sandro 18:05:22 +Evan_Wallace 18:05:26 I'd like to have another week to review them 18:05:26 zakim, ??P19 is me 18:05:26 +uli; got it 18:05:33 PROPOSED: Accept previous minutes from 15 October (http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/meeting/2008-10-15) 18:05:36 zakim, mute me 18:05:36 uli should now be muted 18:06:06 Accepted: previous minutes from 15 October (http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/meeting/2008-10-15) 18:06:08 Harold has joined #owl 18:06:14 Day 2 needs work - there are problems 18:06:25 I sent out a message 18:06:29 +??P22 18:06:37 zakim, ??P22 is me 18:06:37 +schneid; got it 18:06:44 PROPOSED: Accept previous minutes from F2F4 - Day 1: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/meeting/2008-10-23 18:06:49 Christine has joined #owl 18:07:07 zakim, mute me 18:07:07 schneid should now be muted 18:07:16 pfps: I just fixed some minor things in day 1 18:07:26 otherwise day 1 looks ok 18:07:47 RESOLVED: Accept minutes from F2F4 Day 1: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/meeting/2008-10-23 18:08:25 Postponing Day 2 minutes approval to next week 18:08:42 Topic: Action Item Status 18:09:02 + +1.603.897.aacc 18:09:03 +??P24 18:09:11 pending review actions all look done to me 18:09:12 Zhe has joined #owl 18:09:13 Pending Review Actions: accept pending review actions as done 18:09:19 zakim, mute me 18:09:19 sorry, Zhe, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you 18:09:27 Due and overdue actions 18:09:41 zakim, who is here? 18:09:41 On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, Elisa_Kendall, Rinke, IanH, bmotik (muted), Tony, Ivan, MarkusK_, msmith, Achille, Tony.a, bcuencagrau (muted), Alan, uli (muted), Sandro, 18:09:45 ... Evan_Wallace, schneid (muted), +1.603.897.aacc, ??P24 18:09:47 On IRC I see Zhe, Christine, Harold, schneid, uli, bcuencagrau, Achille, dlm, ivan, msmith, bmotik, MarkusK_, RRSAgent, Zakim, IanH, Elisa, Carsten, Rinke, pfps, alanr, ewallace, 18:09:49 ... sandro, trackbot 18:09:52 202 is done given resolution of punning 18:09:53 zakim +??P24 is me 18:09:56 zakim, +1.603.897.aacc is me 18:09:56 +Zhe; got it 18:10:09 zakim, who is here? 18:10:09 On the phone I see Peter_Patel-Schneider, Elisa_Kendall, Rinke, IanH, bmotik (muted), Tony, Ivan, MarkusK_, msmith, Achille, Tony.a, bcuencagrau (muted), Alan, uli (muted), Sandro, 18:10:12 ... Evan_Wallace, schneid (muted), Zhe, ??P24 18:10:13 On IRC I see Zhe, Christine, Harold, schneid, uli, bcuencagrau, Achille, dlm, ivan, msmith, bmotik, MarkusK_, RRSAgent, Zakim, IanH, Elisa, Carsten, Rinke, pfps, alanr, ewallace, 18:10:15 ... sandro, trackbot 18:10:19 zakim, muteme 18:10:19 I don't understand 'muteme', Zhe 18:10:24 zakim, mute me 18:10:24 Zhe should now be muted 18:10:46 zakim, ??P24 is Christine 18:10:46 +Christine; got it 18:11:03 zakim, unmute me 18:11:03 Zhe should no longer be muted 18:12:05 Regarding action 224: the action with respect to the implementation is moot, not much to do there 18:12:18 ... I felt obligated to do something so I did a review 18:12:43 Christine: most of the TBDs have been done; what might be useful is to have a review of the last version 18:12:49 I would call Zhe's task done 18:13:52 Similar action on Achille - action 226 deferred to next week, revised in tracker, but could review the document rather than add more on the implementation section 18:14:15 Christine: I think it's the same: the implementation part is mostly done 18:14:37 Ian: we can discuss the document status later in the agenda - could ask later 18:15:10 Action 224 and 226 are done 18:15:10 Sorry, couldn't find user - 224 18:15:18 action-224 closed 18:15:18 ACTION-224 Fill TBD implementation perspective in the Req before F2F closed 18:15:22 action-226 closed 18:15:22 ACTION-226 Fill TBD implementation perspective in the Req before F2F closed 18:15:48 action-227? 18:15:48 ACTION-227 -- Alan Ruttenberg to email to Elisa and other interesyed person about metamodel -- due 2008-10-08 -- CLOSED 18:15:48 http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/tracker/actions/227 18:15:49 I think that that has been done - 18:15:56 Regarding action 217 on Jie regarding RIF 18:16:16 action-217 closed 18:16:16 ACTION-217 Get to the RIF to ensure that RDF changes are done properly closed 18:16:38 action-202 closed 18:16:38 ACTION-202 Have another try at punning proposal in the light of discussion with peter and come up with test cases closed 18:16:59 action-240 closed 18:16:59 ACTION-240 Show a format for the use cases that he likes, making clear what it is and does. closed 18:18:05 Markus: is still discussing the test case issues with RIF member, but the action (239) is postponed for one week 18:18:19 action-239 closed 18:18:19 ACTION-239 Align OWL test case suite with RIF efforts, and to make required editorial changes to test part of "Conformance and Test Cases" closed 18:18:35 Topic: Reviewing and Publishing 18:19:03 I put some "DONE" & "MOSTLY DONE" for the stuff that I did 18:19:22 Ian: I created a Last Call Check List to assist editors in keeping track of updates required after the F2F (http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Last_Call_Check_List) 18:19:24 Zakin, unmute me 18:19:30 Zakim, unmute me 18:19:30 bmotik should no longer be muted 18:19:34 q? 18:19:40 ... the deadline for revisions is not until next week 18:19:53 Zakim, mute me 18:19:53 bmotik should now be muted 18:20:00 Boris: I hope to have them finished next week, but the deadline is two weeks from now 18:20:13 http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Last_Call_Check_List 18:20:18 Ian: progress is being made, no point to going through the list point by point 18:20:30 ... there are a few items that might be clarified 18:20:38 q+ 18:20:41 Zakim, unmute me 18:20:41 bmotik should no longer be muted 18:20:42 q? 18:20:44 let the ... freeze in the dark :-) 18:20:45 ... one is the problem Michael pointed out regarding IE 18:20:48 ack bmotik 18:21:12 Boris: my suggestion is we do nothing - there are two problems (1) IE implements the style sheet incorrectly, and 18:21:28 q+ 18:21:32 (2) some of the XML entities dont show correctly 18:21:43 zakim, unmute me 18:21:43 schneid should no longer be muted 18:21:46 ... this may be partly due to fonts, but don't know what to do there 18:21:48 ack schneid 18:22:29 q+ 18:22:33 q? 18:22:35 Michael: I probably agree with Boris, but Bijan came up with script that checks for version and changes rendering 18:22:57 q? 18:22:58 ... but this is really hack-y, and if IE 8 fixes it, we should not worry about it 18:23:00 ack ivan 18:23:02 zakim, mute me 18:23:02 schneid should now be muted 18:23:22 q? 18:23:34 Ivan: I was wondering if directly using unicode chars would work 18:23:38 q+ 18:23:41 q? 18:23:44 zakim,unmute me 18:23:44 schneid should no longer be muted 18:23:49 ack schneid 18:24:07 Michael: I answered this mail, and its the same problem -- I checked it and had the same problem with entities 18:24:09 zakim, mute me 18:24:09 schneid should now be muted 18:24:23 q+ 18:24:27 +1 to doing nothing :-) 18:24:35 q? 18:24:37 Ian: can we decide not to do anything about this, since it is not unique to us, and hopefully Microsoft will fix it 18:24:39 ack ivan 18:24:42 schneid: I had the same problem with unicode characters as with HTML entities 18:24:45 Zakim, mute me 18:24:45 bmotik should now be muted 18:24:58 +1 to PDF versions 18:25:07 +1 18:25:11 Ivan: we should also provide pdf or some similar versions of the documents, as an alternative, knowing how many people 18:25:16 q? 18:25:23 ... are using IE -- so that we don't leave them out 18:25:25 +1 to *us* doing nothing 18:25:38 Ian: is there any significant over head in producting the pdf? 18:25:46 q+ 18:25:52 q? 18:25:53 Zakim, unm,ute me 18:25:53 I don't understand 'unm,ute me', bmotik 18:25:56 Zakim, unmute me 18:25:56 bmotik should no longer be muted 18:25:57 ack bmotik 18:25:59 Ivan: there are some acrobat tools that assist, and don't think it would be a major thing to do 18:26:24 Boris: if it is just about printing the html, I'm ok, but am adverse to producing an entirely alternate version 18:26:44 +1 18:26:45 q? 18:26:47 Ian: suppose we propose that we make our documents available in pdf for those who have trouble with their browsers 18:26:56 who is going to "bell this cat"? 18:27:25 PROPOSED: we will provide pdf versions of our documents for those who need them 18:27:32 +1 18:27:41 how pretty does this need to be? 18:28:12 :) 18:28:17 Ivan: I'm not concerned with the tools - you can play with the font size to make it look better 18:28:26 PrinceXML 18:28:48 Sandro: Bijan also suggests PrinceXML 18:29:06 Ivan is volunteering to do this - needs to be done before rec 18:29:21 Ian: we should do this when we produce the documents for last call 18:29:38 Ivan: I'm happy to take the action 18:30:36 PROPOSED: Ivan will provide pdf versions of our last call documents for those who need them 18:30:39 +0.1111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111 18:30:45 +1 18:30:47 +1 18:30:47 +1 18:30:48 +1 18:30:49 +1 18:30:49 +1 18:30:50 +1 18:30:52 +1 18:30:52 +1 18:30:54 +1 18:30:54 +1 18:30:54 +1 18:30:56 +1 18:30:59 +1 18:31:02 +1 18:31:18 another PDF generating tool: http://www.pdf995.com/ 18:31:19 RESOLVED: Ivan will provide pdf versions of our last call documents for those who need them 18:31:30 Action: Ivan will provide pdf versions of our last call documents for those who need them 18:31:30 Created ACTION-241 - Will provide pdf versions of our last call documents for those who need them [on Ivan Herman - due 2008-11-12]. 18:31:34 There is a company offering a free service for transforming wiki page collections to PDF 18:31:45 ... http://pediapress.com/collection/ 18:31:59 ... Their business is in print-on-demand, PDF creation should be free 18:32:28 q+ 18:32:29 I'm up for "nothing" 18:32:29 q? 18:32:34 ack alanr 18:32:45 Peter, can you send a link to the IRC? 18:33:03 Ian: next issue was a survey sent around by pfps on the differences between functional syntax keywords and RDF syntax URIs (see 18:33:08 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Oct/0150.html 18:33:14 ivan: I suggested we normalize to rdf 18:33:31 q+ 18:33:31 q? 18:33:32 Alan: I found a few more 18:33:42 ack bmotik 18:33:45 Ian: suggestion is to change the functional syntax 18:34:19 q? 18:34:22 Boris: we can change exists self to self restriction, but for qualified cardinality we don't want to add to the terminals for this 18:34:35 q+ 18:34:45 ... then there is the issue of DisjointClasses - I would leave the difference for this 18:34:49 q? 18:34:54 Christine has joined #owl 18:34:57 Ian: but there is an issue of backwards compatibility 18:35:07 q? 18:35:11 DataProperty is probably better than owl:datatypeProperty? 18:35:43 q? 18:35:46 ack ivan 18:35:56 Boris: at the level of the structural syntax, we have only DisjointClasses, whereas in the terminals we also have disjointWith ... would prefer to have only DisjointClasses 18:36:20 q? 18:36:21 q+ 18:36:26 Ivan: I think there are cases where we should keep the differences, but we should use the same names where possible 18:36:45 ... we can't change the qualified cardinality, but I don't see why we can't align the others 18:36:46 q+ 18:36:57 Ian: it seems we're not that far from agreement here 18:37:20 ... it's really a matter of going through the list and deciding in each case what we're going to do with that thing, 18:37:23 q? 18:37:28 ... rather than going through the whole list 18:37:53 q+ 18:38:03 q? 18:38:09 ack bmotik 18:38:12 ack bmotik 18:38:14 Boris: I would do one or two things in terms of what's in the list ... I would not change much except for exisits self 18:38:18 ack alanr 18:39:04 q? 18:39:08 ack ivan 18:39:16 Alan: in the case where we've introduced something in OWL 2 in both the functional and RDF syntax, we can certainly make a proposal there, but if there are backward compatibility issues then we'll have to deal with that 18:39:59 q? 18:40:04 Ivan: I don't buy the argument that capitalization has to be different in the functional syntax, as it makes life difficult for those who have to go back and forth between the RDF and 18:40:13 http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/AligningSyntaxKeywords 18:40:14 ... functional syntax 18:40:19 in FS, these are /all/ functions, with different arity. in RDF, there is a clear distinction between classes (capital) and properties (non-capital) 18:40:30 ... the RDF should take precedence if the only difference is capitalizatoin 18:41:05 I can 18:41:07 q? 18:41:07 Ian: we should take this offline regarding what should change and not change and then come back with something more concrete 18:41:21 one does not really see this distinction with the FS glasses on 18:41:27 ... who will take the job of making a proposal from Peter's email 18:41:34 Alan: I'll take it on 18:41:53 I would be confused by different capitalization in FS 18:41:55 Ian: if you would talk with Boris and Ivan on this, to get closer to agreement before coming back to us 18:42:45 Action: Alan will make a proposal regarding naming alignment between the functional syntax and RDF syntax based on the summary from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Oct/0150.html 18:42:45 Created ACTION-242 - Will make a proposal regarding naming alignment between the functional syntax and RDF syntax based on the summary from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Oct/0150.html [on Alan Ruttenberg - due 2008-11-12]. 18:43:01 q+ 18:43:09 http://km.aifb.uni-karlsruhe.de/projects/owltests/ 18:43:22 Ian: last item is the adding test cases issue - in addition to the question of the web site Markus set up, there is the issue of what we are going to do 18:43:30 q? 18:43:33 ... in the test cases and conformance document 18:43:38 ack MarkusK_ 18:43:46 Markus: the web site is not officially announced yet 18:44:13 ... we might still have changes in the schema we are going to use for the test cases, so a good time to watch this would be after next week 18:44:38 Ian: about the web site - the thing I would like to get clarity about is the test cases document itself -- are we going to have 18:44:41 q? 18:44:45 q+ 18:44:50 q? 18:44:53 ... pointers to each test case, to a place where the test cases live? 18:44:56 q- 18:45:15 Alan: I think it should be to where the test cases live - I'll offer a strawman on that 18:45:23 q? 18:45:31 q+ 18:45:32 q+ 18:45:38 q? 18:45:43 ack msmith 18:45:53 Ian: a pointer would make this more extensible in the documents 18:46:07 Markus: (earlier) I am still waiting for W3C to agree on a license policy for the publicly collected test cases 18:46:10 q+ 18:46:18 Michael: I agree, but we need to have a way to say which tests we've agreed on, not just any test people add, 18:46:19 q? 18:46:24 ack sandro 18:46:27 q+ to say in conformance doc how we tell the difference 18:46:28 ... so we need a mechanism to agree on this 18:47:01 q? 18:47:05 Sandro: we need a way to lend some weight to that approval in the documents, which have been approved by the working group 18:47:06 ack alanr 18:47:06 alanr, you wanted to say in conformance doc how we tell the difference 18:47:25 q? 18:47:28 Alan: we should document this in the conformance document - we should say how to tell which are approved in the conformance document 18:47:47 q? 18:47:49 +1 to highlight approved tests, while keeping an external site for collecting more tests after the WG 18:47:49 Ian: we could have two completely separate sets of tests, where the extra set is only informative 18:48:27 ... we need to distinguish which are normative and which are informative, so there are a couple of ways to do this 18:48:31 q? 18:48:41 q? 18:48:43 q+ 18:49:03 ... mark those that are normative, and put them in the document, or point to two separate places, with one set as normative 18:49:41 q? 18:49:42 Markus: we should keep them separate, with a set that are normative called out explicitly, but continue to collect the non-normative ones 18:49:55 ack MarkusK_ 18:50:07 Ian: it's a good idea, but we have to be a little bit careful of what we do from the standards perspective 18:50:31 q+ 18:50:37 q? 18:50:41 zaikim, unmute me 18:50:45 ... so (1) the document contains a pointer to where the test cases live, and (2) the document also contains a pointer to a second set of tests that continue to grow as people add to them 18:50:47 point to extra tests informatively, at least 18:50:47 zakim, unmute me 18:50:47 schneid should no longer be muted 18:50:51 ack schneid 18:50:54 q+ 18:51:07 q+ 18:51:12 q? 18:51:16 -Tony.a 18:51:28 schneid: the alternative is that we have a pointer to the normative ones in our document, and at that location we have a pointer to additional informative tests 18:51:30 zakim, mute me 18:51:30 schneid should now be muted 18:51:35 q+ on this 18:51:44 Ivan: do we refer to the test cases when we describe conformance? 18:51:48 q? 18:51:49 q- 18:51:51 Ian: no specific tests are mentioned 18:51:53 ack ivan 18:51:59 ack MarkusK_ 18:52:29 Markus: I prefer to have a link in the document 18:52:34 q? 18:52:40 Ian: I agree 18:52:58 +1 18:53:00 +1 18:53:02 +1 18:53:03 ... there will be two pointers in the document, one to the frozen set and one to the informative growing set 18:53:48 PROPOSED: There will be two pointers in the conformance and test cases document, one to a frozen normative test set and one to an informative set that can evolve over time 18:53:59 +1 18:53:59 +1 18:54:01 +1 18:54:01 +1 18:54:01