07:05:34 RRSAgent has joined #xhtml 07:05:34 logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-xhtml-irc 07:05:35 IA_XHTML2()3:00AM has now started 07:05:36 RRSAgent, make logs public 07:05:38 Zakim, this will be IA_XHTML2 07:05:38 ok, trackbot, I see IA_XHTML2()3:00AM already started 07:05:39 Meeting: XHTML2 Working Group Teleconference 07:05:39 Date: 24 October 2008 07:05:42 +oedipus 07:05:58 Meeting: XHTML2 WG FtF, Day 2 07:06:06 Chair: Roland 07:06:17 zakim, dial executive_3 07:06:17 ok, Steven; the call is being made 07:06:19 +Executive_3 07:06:48 ShaneM has joined #xhtml 07:07:10 Agenda: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2008-10-FtF-Agenda#Friday:_2008-10-24 07:09:42 nic1 has joined #xhtml 07:09:58 +ShaneM 07:15:28 myakura has joined #xhtml 07:15:35 oeddie has joined #xhtml 07:16:26 TOPIC: XML Events 2 07:16:31 RM: did you make changes? 07:16:32 SM: did 07:16:39 RM: in draft dated 20th 07:16:41 SM: yes 07:16:54 RM: wen through list and made some changes 07:17:03 s/wen/went/ 07:17:04 RM: eventtarget name of changed attribute 07:17:15 RM: main piece 07:18:20 oedipus_laptop has joined #xhtml 07:18:43 http://www.w3.org/2008/10/20-forms-minutes#item05 07:18:54 Forms discussion on XML Events 2 07:18:58 SM: added @eventtarget 07:19:08 RM: for listeners 07:19:11 SM: in general 07:19:36 SM: thought 2 attribute names i changed 07:19:40 RM: other in handler section 07:19:43 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xml-events-20081020/ 07:19:43 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xml-events-20081020/ 07:19:48 XML Events 2 Draft 07:20:34 SM: issue remaining: when are events registered? 07:20:40 RM: had an action on that 07:20:56 RM: when document loaded would be registered and loaded into DOM at that point in time 07:21:03 SP: happen before load events? 07:21:10 RM: could be tricky 07:21:33 SM: reason have to be registered before onLoadEvent fires 07:22:07 SP: onLoadEvent may know stuff necessary for document which seems to mean that would have to refire onLoad 07:22:19 RM: or protect those looking to load and trigger that way 07:22:36 SP: script run when found 07:22:41 RM: so could be before 07:22:43 typically you do something like addEvent("load", functionRef) ; 07:23:05 SP: script would get run before onLoad 07:23:31 SP: would't the code implementing XML Events 2 need to wait for onLoad itself in order to initialize 07:23:36 SM: no, not if run inline 07:23:49 SP: has to run up and down tree to register all listener events 07:24:01 SP: onLoad, but things depend upon it 07:24:12 SP: maybe that is its own bootstrap problem 07:24:29 RM: if go in through javascript and listen with javascript wouldn't be any different 07:24:58 RM: listener in script for onLoadEvent would have problem after 07:25:24 RM: no different from anyone running script using ListenerOnLoad from script interface 07:26:12 SM: 2 diff problems: 1) what to say about handlers module and when registered; 2) if implement to work in existing UAs, how would ensure outcome of issue 1 supported 07:26:23 SM: not sure let decisions about current UAs color the answer 07:26:34 SM: should say registered prior to onLoadFire 07:26:38 SP: yeah 07:26:46 RM: yeah but how to achieve? 07:27:04 Nick: can do onLoad then trigger all events waiting for onLoad -- order not defined 07:27:14 SP: could use root elements 07:28:02 SP: script implemented can do capture onLoad, initialize, then reinitialize onLoad 07:28:14 SM: implementation must behave as if... 07:28:16 RM: yes 07:28:18 SP: yes 07:28:31 RM: such that handlers may listen for onLoad event 07:28:39 SM: can't decide where need to say 07:28:50 SM: in addEventListener description? 07:28:54 SM: yes 07:28:57 RM: makes sense 07:29:15 SM: reason for confusion is MarkB says that this also wasn't clear from XML Events 1 spec - 07:29:24 SP: not place to do it -- that's an action 07:29:39 SP: place to talk about it is in the description of handler attribute 07:30:34 rrsagent, make minutes 07:30:34 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus 07:31:05 SP: i think should be under handler attribute 07:31:14 RM: defined on listener element - optional attribute? 07:31:17 SP: yes 07:31:26 SP: (reads from spec) 07:31:53 SP: could do in separate location: whenever handler attached explicitly with handler attribute or implicitly 07:32:13 RM: problem saying that - what happens when try to add handler after - brining script into DOM 07:32:29 RM: 2 sides: 1) those that are declared in original document will be done before load 07:32:43 SP: discussed before and said that can't do that 07:32:50 RM: should ignore that situation 07:33:12 SP: little point in changing handler attribute via script - if want that effect, can use script already 07:33:32 RM: if put widget in DIV, need assertion -- can't bring in declarative approach to do that 07:33:51 SM: any DOM mutation event should cause the implementation to reexamine tree to ensure all handlers are registered 07:33:59 SP: are you REALLY sure we want that 07:34:20 SM: alternative is build page using AJAX -- if want to work, has to work there too 07:34:32 guest has joined #xhtml 07:34:55 SP: not sure -- whole point of this markup was to do declaratively so didn't have to use script; if going to use script, use script's function, not declarative markup 07:35:07 RM: may not know if embedded at start-up time or post load 07:35:13 SM: that's my concern too 07:35:43 SM: don't disagree with SP, but don't know how to accomodate those creating dynamic pages -- added after onLoadEvent fires 07:36:09 RM: could say or provide function to do it - if do insert after mnode, have to do something to reparse and register these items 07:36:21 RM: responsibility, not dogma 07:36:28 SM: address in document conformance? 07:36:32 SM: or just advice 07:36:40 SM: more than advice -- have to do it 07:37:26 RM: have to cause script to get executed in some way to get activated 07:37:54 SM: popular AJAX libraries do it by setting flag for javascripting process 07:37:59 RM: need something similar here 07:38:03 SM: where in doc? 07:38:14 RM: processing model, isn't it? 07:38:41 RM: make topic in subsection 3 - subject of how to cause listeners to be registered 07:38:46 SM: 3.6? 07:38:54 SM: after event scope 07:38:55 RM: yep 07:39:43 regrets+ Tina, MarkB, Alessio 07:39:58 SM: don't need to do in real time - will edit and we can revisit 07:40:16 TOPIC: Handlers Module 07:40:36 RM: changed to make eventtarget 07:40:51 SM: other is EventType 07:41:43 RM: other thing that makes sense in this section now -- had scripting module, but also discussion if want handler and a script - this script is a "traditional" script inside handler module 07:42:06 scribeNick+ oeddie 07:42:17 rrsagent, make minutes 07:42:17 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-xhtml-minutes.html Steven 07:42:19 SM: script element that would say "here are my handlers" 07:42:26 RM: script that is only a function 07:43:00 RM: add script for all reasons have today 07:43:15 alessio has joined #xhtml 07:43:29 SM: reluctant to loose section 5 - no home other than XHTML2 today 07:43:54 RM: keep in there; will review MarkB's issues with Mark - question: define handler or function - function takes to script handler to handler 07:44:06 hi all, I don't have Skype here... can I follow you via IRC? 07:44:07 RM: reviewing minutes and email from july 07:44:27 of, course, you are welcome in any way you can participate 07:44:37 present+ Alessio_on_IRC 07:44:43 rrsagent, make minutes 07:44:43 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus 07:44:55 thx! 07:44:57 i/Date: 24 October 2008/scribenick: oeddie 07:45:02 rrsagent, make minutes 07:45:02 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-xhtml-minutes.html Steven 07:45:42 i/SM: added @eventtarget/ScribeNick: oedipus_laptop 07:45:46 rrsagent,make minutes 07:45:46 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus 07:45:54 RM: shane also included in dialog 07:46:08 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Aug/0011.html 07:46:35 i/SM: issue remaining/ScribeNick: oedipus 07:46:44 rrsagent, make minutes 07:46:44 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus 07:47:28 regrets- Alessio 07:47:37 present+Alessio 07:48:02 SM: handler element included in handler module, right? 07:48:02 RM: yes 07:48:17 nick has joined #xhtml 07:48:18 SP: where is handler element now? 07:48:22 SM: doesn't exist 07:48:29 RM: trying to move from script 07:48:49 SM: load external things - has @src 07:49:14 SP: handler element versus action element 07:49:32 SM: if action element had @src could fulfil function 07:49:37 RM: leave resources tight 07:50:01 present+ Roland, Steven, Shane, Gregory, Nick 07:50:29 SM: don't want to overload action -- just use handler -- make simpler - doesn't cost anything to have in content model 07:50:39 RM: inside action, put handler 07:50:43 Present+Raman, Uli 07:50:49 rrsagent, make minutes 07:50:49 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-xhtml-minutes.html Steven 07:50:58 RM: handler can be child of action 07:51:01 SM: doesn't have to be 07:51:11 RM: but valid cases where one might want to 07:52:08 RM: other change: option of either specifying want handler to run or function to run; where specify handler and where function? 07:52:25 rrsagent, make minutes 07:52:25 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus 07:52:47 SM: Roland, do you want @implements on handler element? 07:53:11 GJR: can "see" argument for it, perhaps in case of expert handlers 07:53:24 RM: trying to think of a reason to say no -- seems might confuse things 07:54:16 RM: depends upon script - script in 2 diff modules - events module, handlers moule, and script module 07:54:33 RM: just section in XHTML2 -- need script out of events module document altogether 07:55:00 SM: case for retention: XML module, not XHTML module; beyond XHTML; like to expose script element to world beyond XML 07:55:31 RM: agree with that statement; bit we need to work on is what script element says -- XML2 script element different in terms of coding, etc. 07:55:41 SM: not really different - tried to normalize 07:56:03 RM: when i looked were definitely differences between Base and Events 07:57:00 RM: let's finish of the other piece: option to specify handler (ID) or function 07:57:12 SM: suggesting that be global attribute? 07:57:24 RM: wherever can specify handler, can specify function 07:57:27 SM: yes 07:57:53 unl has joined #xhtml 07:58:06 SM: we need to keep in mind that everytime add global attribute, polluting global namespace more 07:58:13 RM: under handler as IDREF? 07:58:18 SM: now a URI 07:58:28 SP: lost use case -- what trying to achieve 07:58:44 RM: either a handler or script library with all functions 07:58:58 RM: get functions from script 07:59:58 foobar()Click here 08:00:37 RM: suggesting that could be name of function 08:00:52 RM: how if going to attach to handler 08:00:59 SP: action element is a handler 08:01:03 SP: used default 08:01:12 foobar() 08:01:41 Click here 08:01:54 s/""/" 08:01:59 < listener event="DOMActivate" observer="button1" handler="#doit" / > 08:02:32 RM: instead of handler, have to create actionable which has to call function - can't refer to handler from function 08:02:51 SM: like elegance of SP's solution, but entire module has no inline CDATA 08:02:55 SP: even action? 08:02:58 SM: even action 08:03:06 SP: replae with script element 08:03:15 s/relae/replace 08:03:20 SM: don't know if will work 08:03:23 Present+Charlie 08:03:33 rrsagent, make minutes 08:03:33 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus 08:03:51 instead of action above 08:03:55 couldn't I say 08:04:01 SP: instead of action above, couldn't i say: 08:04:22 08:04:32 s/if/id/ 08:05:36 SP: question is: how much / often the work that handler does is single function -- this is convenience, not functionality - author convenience to call function 08:06:02 RM: interpretation will be different depending upon culture coming from 08:06:19 TV: what gets loaded and fired; ???? ouldn't hear reast 08:07:00 rrsagent, make minutes 08:07:00 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus 08:07:17 TV: data model 08:07:42 RM: earlier example in spec: listener > DOMActivate > doit function in script what put there? 08:07:44 alessio has joined #xhtml 08:08:06 RM: if have script function called doit, would have to create intermediary - that would be handler? 08:08:12 SP: or script 08:08:28 SM: all done is add layer of abstraction; still can't get to single function 08:08:35 SP: in my script core is that single function 08:08:40 RM: wouldn't execute, though 08:08:59 SP: would handler=#foo content of scrpt gets executed 08:09:05 RM: what would happen today 08:09:10 SP: declare 08:09:14 SM: no such element 08:09:38 defer [CI] When set, this boolean attribute provides a hint to the user agent that the script is not going to generate any document content (e.g., no "document.write" in javascript) and thus, the user agent can continue parsing and rendering. 08:09:39 SM: is attribute "defer" - hints that not going to do DocumentWrite() 08:10:00 SM: have @declare on action element 08:10:04 SP: not sure why 08:10:53 TV: no way to tell UA not to execute piece of script; 08:11:14 RM: what led to suggestion of adding function 08:11:50 RM: still have way of action invoke function 08:12:05 RM: actionhas function equals -- then no need of another parameter 08:12:17 TV: will some of these things have effect on ???? 08:13:25 TV: 2 - one depends on function that came from ???? 08:15:31 TV: respect to javascript node - if script tag has src that gets loaded - trick to make load is do Document.Create element; do things need to block or can execution/loading of document continue 08:16:03 TV: all happen after onLoadEvents fire; if have 2 blocks 1 dependent upon quote from first block, have to find these and define behavior carefully 08:16:10 SM: makes perfect sense 08:16:49 rrsagent, pointer? 08:16:49 See http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-xhtml-irc#T08-16-49 08:17:27 SM: discussing handler element - decided to introduce; then discussed if needed function attribute as part of global attribute set; now keep handler and that handler can invoke function 08:17:43 SM: separate modules - XML Events does not require XML Handlers 08:17:52 TV: would like to keep separate if possible 08:17:56 GJR: plus 1 08:17:58 SM: +1 08:18:11 SM: no way to use listener that ties to a function 08:18:27 RM: handler is always a function could be specified in a language 08:19:13 TV: other way to fix - declare one of things in XML Events to be a handler (such as the handler) - handler spec can elaborate on that; XML Events client that doesn't support handler can use module 08:19:25 RM: handler goes to events goes to listener 08:19:54 SM: another option: @handler doesn't get included into global space unless use events as well 08:20:10 TV: handler in handler module 08:20:17 GJR: like way headed 08:20:33 RM: need to work out specifics - still question - handler attribute to invoke a script 08:20:46 s/invoke a script/invoke a script function 08:21:00 SM: also backwards compat - events 1 08:21:15 SM: happy to define handler element in context of Event Module 08:21:53 SP: in Events 1 did diliberately to try and get others to adopt XML Events 08:22:19 TV: Charlie, is there a voice group position on this? 08:22:56 SP: other groups think our events are special; almost always turns out that they have relevance or something close to it in XForms terms where events don't fire handlers on parts of tree that are irrelevant 08:23:05 TV: event filtering 08:23:32 SP: interesting; no other spec talks about relavance like that, amybe ought to put into spec; SMIL good example 08:23:55 TV: also gets by argument that need to implement a lot of what i don't need to get what i do need 08:24:19 SP: 2 implements: how do you deal with relavance specially 08:24:30 SP: how stop events firing on tree where shouldn't 08:24:38 Charlie: handlers decide what to do 08:25:24 SP: switch that contains element bound to something that changes, but switch not told; strictly speaking, events so go to that thing and bubble up tree, but currently doesn't 08:25:31 Uli: in Shiva does 08:25:42 TV: no one should notice bubble on client side 08:26:10 TV: about 5 years ago had a partial implementation 08:27:01 TV: event list in XML: can say to handler, fire event under certain criterion -- i am done, don't do anymore 08:27:39 TV: could could use XML handler to do conditionality -- if x is true through attributes, then relevant, otherwise, not 08:28:15 TV: target phase, bubble phase or capture phase all should respect conditionality of XML handler 08:28:30 rrsagent, make minutes 08:28:30 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus 08:29:15 RM: conclusion / agreement 08:29:40 s/Shiva/Chiba/ 08:30:05 RESOLVED: take handler out, put into Events Module, ability to invoke script function will be added to handler 08:30:21 GJR: plus 1 08:30:25 +1 08:30:44 rrsagent, make minutes 08:30:44 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus 08:31:38 BREAK FOR 30 MINUTES 08:31:43 -ShaneM 08:31:53 -oedipus 08:35:23 +1 08:41:51 rrsagent, make minutes 08:41:51 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus 08:42:56 i/Attendees/Previous: http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-xhtml-minutes.html 08:42:59 rrsagent, make minutes 08:42:59 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus 08:43:46 present- Alessio_on_IRC 08:44:06 rrsagent, make minutes 08:44:06 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus 09:00:24 i/see also/Previous: http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-xhtml-minutes.html 09:00:29 rrsagent, make minutes 09:00:29 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus 09:03:40 nick has joined #xhtml 09:04:05 zakim, who is on the phone? 09:04:05 On the phone I see Executive_3 09:04:15 omw 09:05:06 +ShaneM 09:05:10 Roland_ has joined #xhtml 09:05:28 +oedipus 09:06:10 listener says handler="#foo" 09:06:24 09:06:59 09:07:16 Steven has joined #xhtml 09:07:19 < handler function="whatever()" / > 09:07:33 GJR: like function better 09:07:36 rrsagent, pointer? 09:07:36 See http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-xhtml-irc#T09-07-36 09:07:47 09:08:21 present+Masataka_Yakura(remote) 09:08:30 s/"whatever()"/"whatever" 09:09:46 SM: trying to understand what means; using examnple above, the symptom is going to do what? load the resource at whatever, find the fragment identified by #someActionElement -- doesn't make sens 09:09:58 09:10:23 09:10:29 SP: not sure about that 09:10:32 09:10:37 SM: this is case trying to solve, right? 09:10:39 SP: yes 09:10:58 SM: guess i'm fine with that - would be as easy to put function on listener and be done with it 09:11:29 SM: handler module describes action element and way to declaratively define handlers 09:12:01 09:12:02 RM: doesn't explain in XML Events 1 09:12:17 SM: has to be embedded? 09:13:12 SP: easy to put function on listener, so what is problem 09:13:37 RM: do we want another global attribute -- wherever a handlers attribute there would be a function 09:13:51 SM: hoping to come up with clever way to overload handler 09:13:52 handler="javascript:function" 09:14:03 RM: one is fragment identifier - URI or function name 09:14:27 SM: that would work today, for what it is worth 09:14:54 RM: wouldn't have to put javascript, name of function 09:14:59 SP: URI, not CURIE 09:15:06 RM: function: would also be URI 09:15:18 SP: then have to go to IETF 09:15:29 SM: not a formal javascript 09:15:33 SP: convention 09:15:49 javascript:alert("foo") 09:15:49 SM: used for href="javascript..." 09:16:25 SP: tried to register schemes widely used and not registered anywhere -- ran out of time or cycles 09:16:52 RM: function name with brackets 09:16:55 s/tried/Bjoern Hoermann/ 09:17:14 http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hoehrmann-javascript-scheme-00 09:17:24 s/mann/mann tried/ 09:17:47 s/Hoer/Hoehr/ 09:18:08 RM: why not use 09:18:20 SM: TAG would have heart-attack 09:18:59 SP: get through LC and put in example 09:19:08 s/SP/RM/ 09:19:14 SP: Shane, your example is very clever - would never have come up with that 09:19:29 RM: someone might take this scheme trhough for all we know 09:19:58 SM: what happens with such a function: get past event context or part of global javascript feed 09:20:03 RM: as per SP's example 09:20:17 SP: what has TAG against it -- that not registered? 09:20:37 SM: TAG doesn't like registering new schemes - want to use HTTP 09:21:23 SM: WebAPI group defining widget spec - so could register in DIV - TAG said no; external group (OASIS) tried to register XIT to IETF, failed 09:21:47 Would this work? foo.js@functionName ? 09:21:55 s/@/#/ 09:22:02 SP: TAG objects to schemes which are just HTTP in disguise - apple has one, and just use it 09:22:12 SP: replace scheme with http still works 09:22:34 SM: within iPhone architecture itself - when install app, can register scheme 09:23:01 js#functionName 09:23:38 SP: as handler you know # defined by media type - application/javascript 09:24:08 SP: then need to look there to find out if can use fragments 09:24:10 http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4329.txt 09:24:54 Scripting Media Types 09:25:13 SM: could put function attribute on it and be done with it 09:25:19 RM: go back to what trying to achieve 09:25:57 SM: 99% of today's use cases, @function would satisfy; could put in note that can do with handler at some time in future, but probably want to stay away from that 09:26:08 SP: safest route is another attribute 09:26:13 SM: clearest for constituents 09:26:17 GJR: plus 1 09:26:20 RM: sounds good to me 09:26:37 SM: having said all that, do we still need handler element? 09:26:42 SP: don't think so 09:26:52 SM: MarkB thinks so -- he introduced this thread 09:27:08 SP: would have to ask Mark 09:27:42 rrsagent, make minutes 09:27:42 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus 09:28:01 SM: does anyone believe that any scripting language used other than javascript? 09:28:24 Is this adequate?
function
09:28:24
The function attribute identifies an optional 09:28:24 function name that will be called when the handler is invoked by 09:28:24 an event listener.
09:28:35 SP: think that in 15 years time, maybe - wrong to make assumption that will always predominate 09:29:14 SP: not sure if need handler and function simultaneously 09:29:38 SM: function called when the event reaches observer 09:29:43 SP: yes 09:30:09 SM: think have to say specify either a handler or a function attribute, and if specify both @function takes precedence 09:30:13 RM: sounds good to me 09:30:16 GJR: plus 1 09:30:34 for me too... +1 09:30:35 RM: function doesn't require javascript - can use other function libraries/languages 09:31:09 RESOLVED: specify either a handler or a function attribute; if specify both @function takes precedence 09:31:26 SM: have abstraction built-into spec, don't know if will ever be used 09:31:36 rrsagent, make minutes 09:31:36 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus 09:32:14 Regrets+ alessio 09:32:48 TOPIC: Script Module 09:33:04 s/Regrets+ alessio// 09:33:04 RM: same as in XML Events only with @function added 09:34:17 SM: so XML Script Element 09:34:39 RM: why would it not be XHTML 1.1 or 1.2 Script Element + Implements? 09:35:53 SM: modules designed to move cleanly into XHTML2; in XHTML2 have broader understanding of i18n; don't care if do differently in Script Module, but going to have to change when move to XHTML2 09:35:55 s/of nothing/no problem/ 09:35:59 http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/interact/scripts.html#edef-SCRIPT 09:36:02 SM: can do now or later 09:36:22 SM: HTML4.01 script that we care about 09:36:29 thx steven 09:36:33 :-) 09:36:51 SM: @type in HTML4 is much diff than @type in XHTML2 09:37:03 SM: didn't put defer in here, but could 09:37:24 SM: is what we are trying to accomplish is that this script looks like HTML 4.01 script + implements 09:37:33 RM: yes, so can implment in existing browsers 09:37:49 SM: if that is case, we shouldn't have complex def of @type in here 09:38:19 SM: Steven, XML Events 2 right now uses definitions from XHTML2 09:38:40 SP: XHTML2 has extended version of @type, but if another app going to use XML Events may not want that def of @type 09:39:04 SP: no objection to XML Events 2 having simpler @type as long as doesn't ruin generic @type in XHTML2 09:39:15 SP: M12n allows us to extend an attribute, right 09:39:16 SM: sure 09:39:55 SM: if agree to change, will rip out complex content-type lang and replace with stuff from HTML4.01 09:40:17 RM: @id element? 09:40:41 SM: everything has @id in XHTML 09:40:46 RM: id or xml:id 09:41:04 SM: interesting discussion we should have 09:41:37 SM: if goal is this is used generically in XML languages, would make sense to remove @id from this spec, which is used in context of other host languages 09:41:40 RM: agree 09:42:49 SP: everyone uses @id -- allow people to use other attributes -- don't want to replicate problem with XFOrms where assumed that host language would define @id, in the end had to put it back in 09:44:03 RM: would be legitimate - don't have to use javascript if have @function 09:44:21 RM: do we know what we are doing with script 09:44:33 SM: believe so -- trying to find definition of @id 09:45:02 id could be still useful as immediate "pointer" for an element 09:45:36 s/id/@id/ 09:45:45 SM: plan with document? 09:45:54 RM: go through changes, review and take to LC 09:46:27 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2007/ED-xhtml2-20071024/mod-core.html#adef_core_id 09:47:24 SM: think inherited from HTML 4.01 09:47:32 RM: add to XHTML 1.2? 09:47:34 SM: no 09:47:41 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2007/ED-xhtml2-20071024/mod-core.html#adef_core_id 09:48:38 SP: text def of id is attribute that assigns an identifier to element 09:49:07 SM: taking high-level details 09:49:12
The optional id attribute assigns an identifier to an element. The value of this attribute must be unique within a document. This attribute MUST NOT be specified on an element in conjunction with the xml:id attribute.
09:49:43 Roland_ has left #xhtml 09:49:46 SM: makes sens to mention xml:id here in regards scripting 09:49:57 SM: coding versus charset - what do we want to do? 09:50:06 RM: XHTML 1.0 says what? 09:50:24 SM: changed for XHTML2 in response to comment from i18n 09:50:31 SP: could leave in encoding 09:50:36 SP: encoding only for the source 09:51:01 SM: wants to map cleanly to script in HTML 4.01 09:51:05 s/source/src attribute/ 09:51:38 SP: 2 options: leave; include both to allow for future developments; or just add in XHTML2 09:51:57 RM: add in XHTML2 and deprecate old one 09:52:22 SM: put in note: "in future version of module expect to change base encoding..." 09:52:36 RM: don't know what value that adds other than to melt minds 09:52:42 SM: ok 09:53:20 SM: now have: @src, @type, @implement - do we need @defer? think has no semantics and should skip 09:53:41 s/implement/implements 09:53:45 RM: if have no use for it, leave it out 09:53:53 RM: is in XHTML 1.0? 09:53:59 SP: everything in 1.0 09:54:04 RM: XHTML 1.1? 09:54:07 @SM I agree 09:54:27 SM: in 1.1 09:54:44 RM: same as 1.1 with addition of @implements - XHTML2 script element 09:55:00 http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/interact/scripts.html#adef-defer 09:55:31 RESOLVED: remove @defer from script element 09:55:39 RM: finished topic? 09:55:50 SM: think so 09:56:52 s/remove @defer from script element/keep everything from HTML 4.01 definition of script 09:56:54 Roland_ has joined #xhtml 09:56:57 rrsagent, make minutes 09:56:57 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus 09:56:58 nic1 has joined #xhtml 09:58:04 s/keep everything from HTML 4.01 definition of script/keep everything from XHTML 1.0 definition of script 09:58:07 rrsagent, make minutes 09:58:07 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus 09:58:53 RM: topic haven't addressed: now that have M12n as Rec need to update other specs - can we discuss after lunch -- fallout from getting M12n to Rec 09:59:07 SM: pretty sure in all in mail 09:59:20 i/RM: topic haven't addressed/Topic: Fallout of M12N 1.1 09:59:24 Now that XHTML M12N 1.1 is a REC, we need to update our other specs. 09:59:24 There are new versions in shape for PER that include the schema 09:59:24 implementations. They include XHTML 1.1, XHTML Basic 1.1, XHTML Print 09:59:24 1.0, and RDFa Syntax 1.0. We should decide a strategy for moving these 09:59:24 forward. 09:59:28 i/RM: topic haven't/TOPIC: Fallout of M12n 09:59:52 rrsagent, make minutes 09:59:52 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus 10:00:12 SP: Basic, Print, and RDFa 10:00:35 RM: 1.1 Second Edition 10:00:40 SM: will all be second edition 10:01:06 RM: 1.1 SE has been waiting for M12n for quite a while 10:01:14 RM: strategy? 10:01:22 SP: add reference and shove out there 10:01:32 SM: updated all drafts as SE and are all ready to go 10:01:37 SP: way to go Shane! 10:01:46 SM: think these are PERs per W3C process 10:01:49 SP: that's right 10:02:07 SM: can't imagine any real contention or difficulty in moving forward; 10:02:24 SM: check errata to ensure all addressed; 10:03:41 SM: RDFa synax odd man out; asked melinda to ask XHTML Print comminity for errata; Print, Basic and XHTML 1.1 we can submit as single submission: same style of change, etc. 10:04:01 RM: seems reasonable: M12n is underpinning 10:04:23 RM: Basic so new, don't think there is errata for that yet 10:04:56 RM: www-html-editor where to find errata? 10:04:58 SM: yep 10:05:06 RM: fun for the whole family... 10:05:52 SM: RDFa Syntax unusual - produced in conjunction with another group in Task Force - up to TF to decide to take to PER? 10:06:07 SM: my guess is ben will want to do a stability check on it first 10:06:37 myakura has joined #xhtml 10:10:01 SM: W3C process questions for SP: Basic, Print, and XHTML 1.1 10:10:14 SP: if errata, work in, add schemas and then submit 10:10:22 SM: submit all in one transition call 10:10:28 SP: best approach 10:10:59 SM: concerned about tracking errata -- need to do a sweep of www-html-editor for the last 5 years 10:11:36 SP: can garuntee that when producing agenda that everytime something new on html-editor, i put on agenda, so i think only need to do a year's trawling/trolling 10:11:48 SM: never added anything to an errata docmument ever 10:12:11 SM: troll agenda to find issues identified; just need to ensure resulted in decision 10:12:42 SM: according to melinda 2 typos which i fixed 10:13:04 SM: print went to rec in September 2006 10:14:05 SP: comment on fieldset sub-elements; Shane and Melinda replied 10:15:02 SP: fieldset asked and disposed - no other comments on Print 10:15:39 RM: looking for mentions of XHTML 1.1 in html-editor 10:15:44 RM: flattened DTD 10:16:00 RM: talking about second edition flattened DTD so that's ok 10:16:24 RM: most recent one - replied 10:16:55 SM: if any stuff need to update, should do it; technically, if stuff in errata doc, should be reflected, but errata docs empty 10:20:13 SM: all indications are that there aren't any dangling erratas 10:20:31 Mayakura? 10:20:39 SP: isn't mayakura our Basic rep -- he is here now, so let's ask him 10:20:44 Myakura? 10:20:59 s/may/my/ 10:21:06 s/mayakura/myakura 10:22:27 yes? 10:24:16 are you aware of any errata or comments against XHTML Basic 1.1 as of yet? 10:25:32 ShaneM: not really. 10:25:34 RM: need to work through these items - when to submit 10:25:42 SP: shouldn't be too much process work 10:26:00 doesn't think i'm the rep for Basic though... 10:26:01 SM: want to verify schema implementation works (by someone other than me) 10:26:13 RM: worth talking with validator guys 10:26:24 SM: if had schema validation, would e 10:26:32 s/would e/would be 10:27:58 myakura just told me he is unaware of any errors 10:28:04 XML Events 2 updated at http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xml-events-20081024/ 10:28:04 http://www.w3.org/2001/03/webdata/xsv 10:28:31 myakura: oh - sorry. Someone indicated you might know about it. We will ping Yam. Thanks! 10:28:48 no probs :) 10:29:17 SM: not obvious how to use XSV 10:29:26 SP: bad user interface 10:29:43 SM: was able to use to validate schema along with oxygen and other tools 10:30:01 SM: reasonably confident, but until use schema in anger, won't know if work 10:30:32 SP: could provide interface -- validate your doc against any of these schemas - XHTML validator 10:30:39 SM: not a bad idea 10:31:58 SM: need to resolve to move to PER as soon as possible 10:32:41 RESOLVED: take Basic 1.1, Print 1.1, XHTML 1.1 to PER as soon as errata check finished 10:33:03 SP: will email RDFa task force about monvement on that front 10:33:10 rrsagent, make minutes 10:33:10 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus 10:33:29 updated draft with schema of RDFa Syntax is at http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-rdfa-syntax-20081018/ 10:34:06 ADJOURN FOR LUNCH: RETURN IN 60 MINUTES 10:34:19 -oedipus 10:35:39 -ShaneM 10:36:21 -Executive_3 10:36:22 IA_XHTML2()3:00AM has ended 10:36:23 Attendees were oedipus, Executive_3, ShaneM 10:36:49 Steven has changed the topic to: Back at 11:3O utc 10:39:12 [fyi] Using ARIA Live Regions to Make Twitter Tweet: http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/index.php?s=twitter 11:10:14 oeddie has joined #xhtml 11:27:16 Zakim has left #xhtml 11:29:23 aloha, alessio -- i have a question for you (and possibly diego and roberto) about iframe - i haven't finished the emessage yet, but i think i did point you to http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/IFrame 11:36:57 problem is, there aren't any com ports anymore for hardware TTS, and the newer screen readers don't support hardware TTS, which is why i'm trying to work with the RNIB on a sourceforge project for hardware speech support for stuff like NVDA 11:37:30 in your copious free time? 11:38:22 something like that -- it's just that if NVDA wants to get ANY market penetration into the mainstream it HAS to support older tech, as hardware synths were VERY expensive 11:38:46 i'm looking for other to do the coding - i'm just simon legree 11:39:00 trying to harvest graduate students 11:39:09 which is always a dangerous thing 11:39:26 can be rewarding but yeah - takes a lot off effort 11:39:56 you said it -- that's why even the "mainstream" ATs are moving towards software everything 11:40:11 but 70% of the target population is unemployed 11:40:25 statistics that are similar throughout the "developed" world 11:41:03 thats a shockingly high number. sometime you will have to explain to me how that 70% eats 11:41:47 which is why i've been trying to get WAI to set up proxy servers for 12 years -- see if the concept/fix works and if it does, implement it, but leave the proxy up ther for those whose hardware is "frozen in time" 11:41:50 food stamps 11:42:09 Roland_ has joined #xhtml 11:43:04 oeddie has joined #xhtml 11:43:04 I do not, but my "vanilla" dog didn't really like stamps 11:43:33 06postma01n 11:43:33 those are the numbers according to AFB (in USA) RNIB (in UK) and australia & NZ 11:43:52 that's one postman who won't ring twice 11:44:21 are we getting ready to restart? 11:44:39 to see what most blind people are dealing with, check http://www.braillewithoutborders.org/ENGLISH/index.html 11:45:27 1 hour, 10 minutes & 56 seconds according to my stopwatch since we broke 11:45:45 i have a stopwatch on my talking watch 11:46:01 samsa has joined #xhtml 11:47:05 Steven has joined #xhtml 11:47:33 zakim left us 11:47:48 steven dismissed him 11:47:54 Di not 11:47:58 did not 11:47:58 they have to connect first 11:48:03 Zakim has joined #xhtml 11:48:07 oh, then maybe it was roland 11:48:10 zakim, this is xhtml 11:48:10 ok, Steven; that matches IA_XHTML2()3:00AM 11:48:18 zakim, call executive_3 11:48:18 ok, Steven; the call is being made 11:48:20 +Executive_3 11:48:50 +oedipus 11:48:58 oeddie has joined #xhtml 11:49:01 zakim, who is on the phone? 11:49:01 On the phone I see ShaneM, Executive_3, oedipus 11:50:53 RESOLUTION: take handler out, put into Events Module, ability to invoke script function will be added to handler 11:50:55 RESOLUTION: specify either a handler or a function attribute; if specify both @function takes precedence 11:50:55 RESOLUTION: keep everything from XHTML 1.0 definition of script 11:51:07 s/1.0/1.1/ 11:51:16 TOPIC: M12n 11:51:50 nick has joined #xhtml 11:52:12 s/TOPIC: M12n/TOPIC: XHTML Mime 11:52:32 RM: Shane had dialog with commentor 11:52:40 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtmlmime-20081022/ 11:52:50 We recommend that XHTML be delivered as HTML, but that means it is not valid HTML. Do we care? 11:53:09 (above from agenda) 11:53:33 SM: high level: applied most of simon's edits; not much from others; 11:53:53 SM: asked for clarification on few issues and he did that 11:54:26 SM: in this document - original Note and updating - original Note did thurough job of looking at all media types might deliver XML/XHTML document 11:54:45 SM: does it make sense to talk about DTDs and discourage their use 11:55:12 SM: Section 3.3 - application/xml 11:55:17 SP: reads document 11:55:50 SP: worth pointing out that can do it, but may not always be processed as XHTML 11:56:03 RM: while may work, recommend you don't do this 11:56:17 RM: shouldn't we recommend one over other 11:56:37 SP: allow both, not champion one over other - ok to serve HTML to XML processor 11:56:41 q+ 11:57:06 myakura has joined #xhtml 11:57:06 RM: application/xml and application+xml that have to say diff things about them 11:57:20 RM: what it is that we recommend should or should not do them 11:57:35 RM: you MAY or you SHOULD? 12:00:15 RM: who is meant to read document? 12:00:21 SM: document authors 12:00:52 RM: shouldn't we then be more explicit about XHTML family and modularization? 12:01:10 SM: don't know how to answer that question 12:01:28 RM: less technically correct - this applies to XHTML 1.0, XHTML 1.1 or XHTML Basic 1.1 12:01:33 SM: doesn't just apply to those 12:01:58 RM: XHTML 1.1 Basic adoption by author application of XHTML Modularization 12:02:39 RM: can we put it that way -- if it begins with X, then it is XHTML and an author application of modularizatino 12:02:54 SM: if this doc talks about M12n anywhere is a mistake 12:02:59 SM: mentions rec 12:03:08 RM: reads from abstract 12:03:31 RM: is that really the case? 12:04:16 RM: that's why there are XHTML Media Types - only read this doc if want to write XHTML and how to best get processed by User Agent 12:04:18 SM: ok 12:04:26 alessio has joined #xhtml 12:04:37 RM: this is Note produced by us 12:04:43 RM: Introduction 12:05:00 RM: talks about XHTML1 versus HTML 4.01 12:05:06 SM: historical data 12:06:16 rrsagent, make minutes 12:06:16 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus 12:06:57 RM: Introduction: brief summary 12:07:29 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtmlmime-20081022/#intro 12:08:31 RM: some stuff we don't want - they chose language, so will get what they get - language designer, not m12n that made that decision 12:08:52 RM: too much for people to say "do i have to worry about all this? i'll just use HTML 4.01" 12:09:04 SM: ok - strike first paragraph? 12:09:14 RM: actually last paragraph 12:09:26 "Note that, because of the lack of explicit support for XHTML (and XML in general) in some user agents, only very careful construction of documents can ensure their portability (see Appendix A). If you do not require the advanced features of XHTML Family markup languages (e.g., XML DOM, XML Validation, extensibility via XHTML Modularization, semantic markup via XHTML+RDFa, Assistive Technology access via the XHTML Role and XHTML Access modules, etc.), you may w 12:10:19 SM: happy to reword, but last paragraph addresses objection tina had (we really should tell people use HTML4 unless need XHTML) - reasonable - don't jump through hoops if don't have to 12:10:25 RM: terms and definitions 12:10:55 XHTML Family Document Type: "A document type which belongs to the family of XHTML document types. Such document types include [XHTML1], and XHTML Host Language document types such as XHTML 1.1 [XHTML11] and XHTML Basic [XHTMLBasic]. Elements and attributes in those document types belong to the XHTML namespace (except those from the XML namespace, such as xml:lang), but an XHTML Family document type may also include elements and attributes from other namespaces, 12:11:35 RM: support XHTML, but "host language document type" matter to reader of doc? 12:11:56 SM: defined because term is used in previous definition - you are right - more academic approach than needed 12:12:07 RM: Section 3.2 12:12:17 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtmlmime-20081022/#application-xhtml-xml 12:12:31 SM: only docs that adhere to our structural reqs can use this media type 12:12:34 agree with roland 12:13:09 RM: that's why concentrating on reading from author's PoV 12:14:17 RM: same with application type - obscure terms versus critical terms 12:14:56 RM: if i am a document author, don't need to understand a lot of what is explained 12:15:12 GJR: agree -- type of thing that makes people say "it's all geek to me" 12:15:55 yeah, that's true gregory 12:16:13 RM: just tell me what to do, save theory for another document 12:16:39 SM: originally not intended for document authors as it was to explain to XHTML2 what works and what doesn't in real world 12:17:20 RM: significance check of terms - integration document set; host language document type 12:17:55 SM: in previous term define XHTML family; would define XHTML Family by turning def around 12:18:13 Section 3: 3. Recommended Media Type Usage 12:18:37 RM: looks clear to me 12:18:38 @@@@Issue: Do we believe that XHTML documents that adhere to the guidelines are "valid" HTML? Should that be a goal?@@@@ 12:18:54 SM: Simon objects to this; i may be being obtuse 12:18:58 SP: what is objection 12:19:15 SM: thinks we are defining content-negotiation and are doing it ppoorly 12:20:01 SM: shouldn't be redefining rules of content negotiations in doc 12:20:32 SM: hadn't considered that problem; thinking had been if UA prefers text/html, give in xhtml because that is what it is 12:21:29 RM: if accept header that states application/xhtml+xml ... 12:21:48 if the Accept header explicitly contains application/xhtml+xml 12:21:48 and prefers it over other types 12:21:48 deliver the document using that media type. 12:21:51 then deliver as xhtml because that is what it is 12:22:38 SP: what is our aim? deliver XHTML - so deliver as xhtml, and problem over 12:22:52 SM: exactly 12:23:06 SP: trying to say if doesn't accept xhtml, have to do something else 12:23:54 SM: if that is case - what WG wants to say - not defining content negotiation, but telling author if explicitly containx xhtml (with no Qvalue) deliver using that media type 12:24:39 SM: point 2: if explicitly contains xhtml ... (missed) 12:24:56 SM: point 3: if */*, then deliver what can 12:25:13 RM: if text/html and xhtml, regardless of priorities, serve xhtml 12:25:36 RM: if can handle xhtml, always parse the xhtml 12:26:06 SM: anything beyond point 4 is gilding the lilly 12:26:34 RM: doesn't recommend xhtml text/html or */* - have to know what media types DOM is capable of - no recommendation 12:27:00 GJR: makes sense, can only tell authors what to do, can't control parsing 12:27:17 SP: want to say right up front that not redefining content negotiation 12:27:25 RM: yes, need to make very clear 12:28:05 This section summarizes which Internet media type should 12:28:05 be used for which XHTML Family document for which purpose. 12:28:05 Note that while some suggestions are made in this section with 12:28:05 regard to content delivery, this section is by no means 12:28:05 a comprehensive discussion of content negotiation techniques. 12:28:58 plus 1 to general gist 12:30:32 RM: state intended readership up front? 12:30:46 SM: yes, definitely 12:31:53 abstract: Many people want to use XHTML to author their web pages, but are confused 12:31:53 about the best ways to deliver those pages in such a way that they will be 12:31:53 processed correctly by various user agents. This Note contains 12:31:53 suggestions 12:31:54 about how to format XHTML to ensure it is maximally portable, and how to deliver 12:31:54 XHTML to various user agents - even those that do not yet support XHTML natively. 12:31:56 This document is intended to be used by document authors who want to use 12:31:58 XHTML today, but want to be confident that their XHTML content is going to 12:32:00 work in the greatest number of environments. 12:33:08 it has "pratical" sense... 12:34:14 Looks good to me 12:34:45 yes, me too 12:34:54 SM: Section 3 - what to do when XML doc does not adhere to guidelines 12:35:18 SM: if doesn't adhere, don't send as text/html - needs transformation, not false declaration 12:35:54 SM: Simon pointed out shouldn't deliver html documents because not valid 12:36:10 SP: shouldn't be saying "getting XHTML into browser" 12:36:19 s/n't/ 12:36:23 s/n't// 12:36:31 RM: if you do these things, it will be sufficient to get effect you want in most UAs 12:36:40 SM: Steven, strike entire paragraph 12:36:52 s/paragraph/paragraph? 12:37:21 RM: maybe should say nothing 12:38:37 SM: it is about document performance, not UA limitatinos 12:38:53 RM: use at own risk - will evolve -- suggestions to improve chances 12:39:07 SM: up to us to keep document up to date - fix, and update periodically 12:39:40 SM: strike entire paragraph? 12:39:43 Steve suggested: When an XHTML document does NOT adhere to the guidelines, it should only be delivered as media type application/xhtml+xml. 12:39:50 RM: strike it and see 12:40:24 SM: added at specific request 12:40:34 RM: pragmatic, not purist, document 12:40:45 SM: removed all RFC2119 words 12:43:01 SM: remove about transforming into HTML? 12:46:02 SM: haven't removed any guidelines, but rules in 1.0 still in document - backwards compatibility there 12:46:05 GJR: right 12:47:10 SM: Simon said "why still asserting this - no longer relevant" - no longer relevant to opera 9, but where does that get the world? 12:47:29 "Note: It is possible that in the future XHTML Modularization will define rules for indicating which specific XHTML Family members are supported by a requestor (e.g., via the profile parameter of the media type in the Accept header). Such rules, when used in conjunction with the "q" parameter of the media type could help a server determine which of several versions of a document to deliver - thereby allowing server-side customization of content for specific cla 12:47:57 SP: XHTML Basic gets delivered with profile 12:48:08 SP: OMA spec includes something along those lines 12:48:43 RM: what would make me do something different in raction to note? 12:48:48 SM: none - remove 12:49:34 RM: should be as short as we can make it and no shorter 12:50:28 SM: section 3.4 should be 3.1 12:50:48 s/3.4/3.2 12:50:55 RM: seemed out of order to me 12:51:41 RM: when conforms to guidelines in this document "carefully constrcuted" means what? 12:52:18 SM: will fix 12:52:34 SM: character encoding 12:52:50 RM: trying to figure out how to express why matters to me as author 12:53:03 SM: don't need to give all background; just tell them what to do 12:53:15 SM: doesn't tell what to do anyway 12:53:34 SM: GL9 in Appendix A.9 12:53:45 DO encode your document in UTF-8 or UTF-16. When delivering the document from a server, DO set the character encoding for a document via the charset parameter of the HTTP Content-Type header. When not delivering the document from a server, DO set the encoding via a "meta http-equiv" statement in the document (e.g., ). However, note that doing so will explicitly bind the document to an a singl 12:53:45 Rationale: Since these guidelines already recommend that documents NOT contain the XML declaration, setting the encoding via the HTTP header is the only reliable mechanism compatible with HTML and XML user agents. When that mechanism is not available, the only portable fallback is the "meta http-equiv" statement. 12:54:08 SM: Simon said example silly (change to japanese at end) 12:54:24 RM: beware of character encoding issues, in particular GL/A.9 12:54:34 RM: why reiterate? 12:55:06 RM: if have guidelines, point to them, don't reiterate them 12:55:36 SM: if content in here i care about, will push down to guidelines 12:55:53 SM: 3.3. 'application/xml' 12:56:05 RM: all is honky-dory - procede - no problem 12:56:27 RM: run trhough validator; if valid, procede 12:56:35 s/trhough/through 12:56:53 RM: bit of overkill 12:57:16 SM: put in because validator people trying to enforce validity guidelines 12:58:26 s/SM: 3.3 'application/xml'/SM: 3.2 application/xhtml+xml 12:58:43 SM: XML stylesheet processing instructions? keep? 12:58:59 rrsagent, make minutes 12:58:59 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus 13:00:07 SP: idea that this is XML so should use XML features where possible; when XML and HTML feaature, XML feature should get priority 13:00:37 SM: not XSLT, but sytlesheet PI 13:00:55 SM: will just remove paragraph 13:01:04 SM: final paragraph - character encoding issues 13:01:17 RM: thought was all utf-8 13:01:30 SM: if serving as text/html can serve as whatever you want 13:01:59 RM: recommendations? HTML4 as well as XHTML 13:02:22 SM: if that is the case shouldn't be telling people to ignore guidelines 13:02:42 SM: if message is you care about portability, follow the guidelines 13:02:47 RM: content-encoding 13:03:40 RM: circular reference 13:04:06 SM: doesn't depend on RFC 13:04:27 SM: documented in 3.3 - says same thing we already believe it wants 13:06:20 SM: will be document processing agents, not user agents - search engines, and trawling tools 13:06:53 RM: 3rd paragraph - "generic user agent" 13:07:21 RM: user agent give what it asks for, don't worry about it 13:07:38 SM: suggest leave 3.3 and 3.4 - remove references to other media types from this document 13:08:20 RM: reference 3.3 to 3.2 13:08:28 SM: think can remove summary section 13:08:33 RM: refer to it early on 13:08:35 alessio has joined #xhtml 13:08:42 RM: looks too complicated 13:08:52 RM: althought will be a lot smaller 13:09:25 SM: we've said what preference rules are and why should use; at beginning of section 3, should expand on it - already did 13:10:51 SM: in section on application/xhml+xml - if document uses other namespaces MUST use this mime type 13:11:00 RM: reverse and put in other section 13:11:38 RM: Appendix A looks better with DO NOTs and DOs 13:12:25 RM: Appendix A 13:12:32 RM: Appendix A.1 - sounds good 13:13:13 SM: made all changes SimonP wanted, so should be satisfied - when done with whinnowing process, we should go back and add more examples 13:13:36 RM: A.2, A.3 fine to me 13:13:53 SM: added extras to A.4 13:15:12 RM: A.4 actually works? 13:15:13 SM: yes 13:15:17 RM: will be using 13:15:34 SM: A.5 because is allowed 13:15:57 SM: A.6 missing - deleted rule - reluctant to renumber other rules because map to XHTML 1.0 13:16:08 SP: could say A.6 Deleted 13:16:17 RM: or superseded by events 13:16:36 GJR: thanks for A.7 13:17:44 SM: need to complete second "DO NOT" 13:17:50 RM: should not use one or the other 13:17:55 SM: rationale says why 13:18:06 SM: reinforces why need to reintroduce into XHTML2 13:18:25 SM: A.8 Fragment Identifiers 13:18:36 SP: very good 13:18:44 GJR: 2 thumbs up (guess where) 13:18:57 SM: meta stuff addressed in A.9 13:20:12 "DO encode your document in UTF-8 or UTF-16. When delivering the document from a server, DO set the character encoding for a document via the charset parameter of the HTTP Content-Type header. When not delivering the document from a server, DO set the encoding via a "meta http-equiv" statement in the document (e.g., ). However, note that doing so will explicitly bind the document to an a sing 13:20:38 "Rationale: Since these guidelines already recommend that documents NOT contain the XML declaration, setting the encoding via the HTTP header is the only reliable mechanism compatible with HTML and XML user agents. When that mechanism is not available, the only portable fallback is the "meta http-equiv" statement." 13:20:46 SM: covered here 13:21:03 SM: changed EUC-JP to utf-i 13:21:12 s/utf-i/utf-8 13:21:25 RM: Move on to Appendix B 13:21:43 s/B/A.10 13:21:49 SM: not sure got this right 13:22:41 SM: can rely on html DOM methods; overlap with XHTML DOM; but XHTML DOM not going to return elements and attributes in upper case 13:23:05 SM: think portable is: rely upon the DOM 13:23:09 SP: all need to say 13:23:29 SM: bit about element and attribute names meaningful - uppercase versus lowercase 13:23:55 RM: if want to be case insensitive, use lower, otherwise will have to use camelcase 13:24:10 RM: be sensitive to case 13:24:37 SM: DO ensure element and attribute names are case insensitive in your scripts. 13:25:40 RM: A.12 seems fine 13:25:52 RM: just needs examples 13:25:58 yes 13:28:01 RM: A.14 - ok 13:28:14 RM: A.15 formfeed character 13:28:22 SP: fixed in later XML 13:28:31 RM: no harm in doing this 13:29:35 RM: A.16 - ok 13:29:57 RM: A.17 The XML DTD Internal Subset 13:30:16 SM: A.18 perhaps too strong 13:30:30 "DO NOT use the XML CDATA mechanism." 13:31:12 SM: contradict with A.4 - bring into harmony 13:31:43 RM: A.19 - just tbody? 13:31:58 SM: thought were ignored, not inferred? 13:32:07 SM: don't think are in DOM 13:32:21 SM: Steven, might be right that there is another inferred element 13:33:36 SP: context of stylesheets, think just tbody 13:34:13 RM: DO use the base element if you need to establish an alternate base URI for your document. should be in same block as ""DO NOT use the xml:base element. 13:34:42 RM: document.write - do not use 13:34:48 SM: wondering if rationale is right 13:35:47 SP: parsing models for XML doesn't require halving on fly; document.write only works with streaming parsers, so shouldn't use it; might do reader some good explaining how to do so modifies DOM directly 13:35:53 SM: a "do" clause? 13:36:13 RM: if this is what you ar etrying to achieve, use DOM manipulation to achieve same effect 13:36:51 RM: 22 application/xml and the DOM 13:36:55 SM: get rid of it? 13:36:58 SP: yes, 13:37:33 SM: 23 put in over tina's objection "updating document using innerHTML" 13:37:43 SP: is this difference between HTML and XHTML rule 13:38:03 SM: simon said ensure content is well formed and here is GL if going to 13:38:07 RM: reasonable caveat 13:38:13 SM: took one step further 13:38:40 RM: example, such as that needed for document.write - show how to do properly if need to do it 13:39:11 RM: 24 scripts and missing tbody elemtns 13:39:22 SP: still don't understand why 23 in here? 13:39:34 SM: have to ensure that conforms to GL if going to insert it 13:40:05 SP: link should be in rationale 13:40:17 SP: 25 says too much and too little 13:40:56 "Rationale: In HTML 4, these properties were often specified on the body element. CSS specifies that in XHTML they need to be specified on the html element in order to apply to the entire viewport." 13:41:04 SM: and CSS spec says works that way 13:41:20 SP: insisted spec say that because couldn't do any other way - compromise 13:42:04 SP: ensure any CSS properties on HTML element are also specified on BODY element 13:42:36 SP: warning is: if serve XHTML as xhtml, garuntee that CSS will work - if serve as html will work in some browsers and not in others 13:42:53 SM: diff problem - CSS on body element, syles bounding box of body, not viewport 13:42:58 SM: very different effects 13:43:24 SP: standard thing to do is switch everything off HTML and onto BODY 13:43:50 SP: On some user agents, put initial sytling on HTML some on BODY, so have to code CSS to take that to into account 13:44:18 SM: ensure properties on HTML also on BODY is fine 13:44:32 SP: rationale is some UAs recognize in BODY or HTML 13:45:43 SM: 26 - didn't realize problem with noscript 13:47:38 SM: if scripting is enabled, contents of noscript parsed as CCDATA if script parsed as CDATA 13:47:50 http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/IFrame 13:48:57 SM: 37 iframe Element 13:49:24 s/37 iframe/27 iframe 13:51:21 SP: noscript needed because of document.write 13:51:48 SM: thought no script was for alternative to script 13:52:18 SP: if do all with DOM mutations, initial version of document can contain script that deletes the element 13:52:50 SP: functionality is there if use script - if use document.write version to change then do need noscript to catch that 13:53:08 SM: 37 iframe Element 13:53:15 SP: need explanation 13:56:06 SM: simon says content is parsed differently - in HTML parsed as CDATA when scripting enabled, or PCDATA when scripting disabled, but in XML alwasy parsed as CDATA - same problem as noscript 13:56:20 SM: don't know if compatibility issue 13:56:39 SP: not only if evaluated as HTML or XHTML but whether scripting enabled or not 13:56:56 SM: need to copy bit from noscript one 13:57:32 http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/IFrame 14:00:17 alessio has joined #xhtml 14:04:18 1. What is the current state of accessibility of IFRAME? 14:04:18 2. What are the outstanding accessibility problems inherit to IFRAME, or have they been mitigated? 14:04:18 1. if, for example, one has a document embedded in an IFRAME which has access keys defined for it, will the embedded document's UI controls take precedence when the focus is in the IFRAME? what about conflicts between embedded UI controls and UI controls in host documents? what if a tabindex value has been defined for the IFRAME, and the document in the IFRAME has its own tabindex order? 14:04:18 The basic question is: How do the 2 documents interact and what can be done to standardize this interaction? Is it possible to harmonize W3C's efforts on IFRAME reform, which include IFRAME in XHTML2 (a subject currently being revisited after having been dropped), the XHTML IFRAME Module and the XHTML Legacy Module versus IFRAME in HTML5) with OpenAjax's support for iFrames? 14:05:06 RM: good if have demonstrative positive example will benefit intended reader base 14:05:54 we could investigate possible interactions between IFRAME and wai-aria 14:06:12 SP: ODF wants to use RDFa in documents, and wanted to use xml:broccoli - allowed according to namespacing rules 14:06:21 @alessio -- yes, definitely 14:07:22 SM: RDFa - does it define an attribute collection? 14:08:08 SM: Metadata Attribute Collection 14:08:19 http://www.w3.org/TR/rdfa-syntax/#col_Metainformation 14:09:36 SP: CC message to group or just to ODF inquirer? 14:10:00 rrsagent, make minutes 14:10:00 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus 14:10:09 TOPIC: XHTML2 Roadmap 14:10:12 I just messaged the guy 14:10:16 since he sent it to me only 14:10:40 SP: all our ducks are in a row 14:11:35 SM: at last f2f we agreed that i was to rip out all sections duplicating content of other specs, then refer to them and then be done 14:11:51 SM: then thought bad idead beacuse refer to attributes that aren't defined in spec 14:12:03 SM: have to include placeholders in spec 14:12:10 SM: told me to rip that all out 14:12:29 SP: if go to Forms section, tells me what i need to know 14:12:42 SM: thought i was supposed to take that out 14:13:09 RM: pointer saying there is this module and the module is elsewhere; summary in XHTML2 or statement "here is module, here is pointer" 14:13:19 SM: like that tact 14:14:10 XHTMLMIME is updated http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtmlmime-20081024/ 14:14:12 RM: a module such as XML Events and XML Handlers are for incorporation into 1.3 if wanted and XHTML2 if wanted -- is that true? 14:14:39 RM: like to think it is true, but may never be true statement depending on what happens with XHTML2 14:14:59 RM: developing XML Events 2 reusable in both existing m12n scheme and XHTML2 14:15:11 SP: yes, for both, planning on importing events 2 14:15:29 RM: nothing more in XHTML2 than incorporates XML Events 2 and XHML Handlers 2 14:15:35 s/planning/XForms is planning/ 14:16:07 RM: Access, Role, etc. only in XHTML2 by reference 14:16:09 SM: ok 14:17:53 SM: dependent on modules - long pole in tent Access or Events 2 14:18:09 RM: implementations for XHTML2 will be needed, too 14:18:40 RM: Script module in there, too - pull that into XHTML2 and add @implements 14:18:47 SP: issue new WD next month? 14:18:57 RM: before christmas moritorium 14:19:16 SP: relationship to referenced documents 14:19:20 RM: in LC 14:19:32 SP: early next year for LC would be good target 14:19:52 TOPIC: Next Face2Face 14:19:55 SP: when 14:20:03 RM: february 14:20:15 ok 14:22:13 SP: pretty far advanced - things don't have implementations for in XHTML2 (frames replacement stuff) and @src and @href everywhere; alessio helping on all those fronts 14:22:27 SP: implementation of features demonstration in good shape 14:22:44 SM: what version of XForms including? 14:22:52 SP: anticipating XForms 1.1 14:23:00 SM: XML Events 2, too? 14:23:02 SP:yes 14:23:12 SM: can't imagine get too far without test suite 14:23:19 surely gregory 14:23:25 SP: once go to LC, major work will be producing test suite 14:23:59 SM: had one of my guys take existing XHTML test suite and start readying for change to XHTML2 - should i have him continue? 14:24:01 SP: yes 14:24:16 SM: if can take advantage of that work will help us along 14:24:28 SP: anything else? 14:25:07 RM: talked about docs individually - resolved to go to CR and PER on docs; 14:25:25 RM: XHTML2 separate into separate specs at later date? 14:25:49 MOVE TO ADJOURN 14:26:17 RM: bangs gavel - MEETING ADJOURNED 14:26:33 SM: meet next wednesday? 14:26:51 SP: call starts while still at airport 14:27:03 GJR: US Daylight savings time ends this weekend 14:27:27 SM: if have any cycles to work on transition requests for PERs i probably have the time 14:28:50 SP: long ago, we said to anne van kestren that we would change IDREF on imagemaps when re-issued 1.1 14:29:05 SP: should make sure we should do that 14:29:13 SM: where 1.2 or 2? 14:29:16 RM: 1.2 14:29:38 SM: override def of module for m12n - not update m12n because then break all other languages 14:29:45 ACTION: Shane add the IDREF change for imagemap to XHTML 1.2 14:29:45 Created ACTION-16 - Add the IDREF change for imagemap to XHTML 1.2 [on Shane McCarron - due 2008-10-31]. 14:29:59 ADJOURNED 14:30:21 Roland_ has left #xhtml 14:30:25 -ShaneM 14:30:26 -oedipus 14:30:26 IA_XHTML2()3:00AM has ended 14:30:28 Attendees were ShaneM, Executive_3, oedipus 14:30:37 zakim, please part 14:30:37 Zakim has left #xhtml 14:30:44 rrsagent, make minutes 14:30:44 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus 14:32:38 thanks ALessio 14:32:53 pressent- oedipus 14:33:00 present+ Gregory_Rosmaita 14:33:02 rrsagent, make minutes 14:33:02 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus 14:33:59 rrsagent, please part 14:33:59 I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-xhtml-actions.rdf : 14:33:59 ACTION: Shane add the IDREF change for imagemap to XHTML 1.2 [1] 14:33:59 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-xhtml-irc#T14-29-45