IRC log of pling on 2008-10-24

Timestamps are in UTC.

07:17:12 [RRSAgent]

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-pling-irc

07:17:46 [caribou]

[First session with egov]

07:18:30 [caribou]

see http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-egov-minutes

07:18:48 [lkagal]

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07:22:40 [caribou]

caribou has changed the topic to: PLING meeting at TPAC - currently with eGov IG, Esterel room

07:22:44 [rigo]

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07:54:10 [lkagal]

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08:08:36 [caribou]

Topic: Geospatial XACML

08:09:23 [renato]

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08:24:16 [rigo]

carine, who is taking minutes?

08:26:31 [rigo]

ok

08:26:38 [rigo]

scribenick: rigo

08:27:54 [rigo]

AndreasMatheus (AM) presenting use case of cross border geolocation

08:29:12 [rigo]

using GeoXACML with permissions on who can see what and how to make that even dutch geo data looks in german style and vice versa

08:29:32 [rigo]

AM: applying some restrictions to it

08:30:06 [rigo]

Ashok: people telling us that XACML is just too difficult to use

08:30:37 [rigo]

AM: degree of freedom is so big that you have to write down some stuff on paper before starting to encode

08:31:00 [rigo]

RRSAgent, please draft minutes

08:31:00 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-pling-minutes.html rigo

08:31:01 [lkagal]

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08:32:08 [rigo]

AM: using MS Infopath to generate XACML, there is no XACML editor, I use XML spy

08:36:45 [rigo]

AM presenting the SEE-Geo Project.

08:37:10 [rigo]

a project of University Edinburgh

08:37:22 [rigo]

geolocation data service running on the national grid cluster

08:37:33 [rigo]

uk national that is

08:40:36 [rigo]

LK: why was there standardization

08:41:06 [rigo]

AM: geo data is very special and access control decisions are based on geo location data

08:42:05 [rigo]

AM: also exchange of policy information between actor in geospatial geo-infrastructure where there are autonomous services

08:43:34 [rigo]

LK: can't we have an ontology and integrate with XACML

08:44:16 [rigo]

Ashok: it is not within the XACML framework, for geo you need to add functions that are not part of XACML

08:44:42 [rigo]

...and in order for all to understand those functions, need for standardization

08:44:58 [rigo]

GN: XACML is designed to be extended that way

08:48:34 [rigo]

AM: doing a demo of the access controled map service

08:54:25 [rigo]

renato?

08:54:44 [rigo]

carine, can you kick renato for the break?

09:53:27 [caribou]

Topic: Joint meeting with Media Annotations WG

09:53:30 [caribou]

see http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-mediaann-minutes.html#item05

10:12:19 [renato]

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10:12:30 [renato]

topic: JTC1/SC27/WG5 Overview - Jan Schallaboeck

11:42:59 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-pling-minutes.html caribou

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11:47:04 [caribou]

Topic: PrimeLife/PLING interaction

11:47:31 [caribou]

PrimeLife is currently working on use cases and will have requirements done by june 2009

11:47:49 [caribou]

(internal draft in the project end of 2008)

11:48:09 [caribou]

Rigo: we can organize workshops

11:48:42 [caribou]

... public W3C workshops

11:50:36 [caribou]

Lucy: anyone from PLF going to openID meeting in Mountain View?

11:51:26 [lkagal]

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11:52:02 [lkagal]

RRSagent, pointer?

11:52:02 [RRSAgent]

See http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-pling-irc#T11-52-02

11:52:13 [caribou]

... US conference are focused on data protection more than privacy

11:52:27 [caribou]

... while european folks are more focused on privacy

11:52:41 [caribou]

... would be good to have someone from PLF there

11:53:39 [caribou]

Rigo: P3P had to make the bridge

11:54:03 [caribou]

JanS: issue about adoption if we don't do the discussion together

11:57:17 [caribou]

Rigo: we want to keep the smallest complexity + possibilities to extend, to keep it manageable

12:03:52 [caribou]

Topic: Policy-Aware Web discussion

12:04:12 [caribou]

Lalana: everything on the web has a policy

12:04:22 [caribou]

... we had a project considering Access Control

12:05:00 [caribou]

... instead of gathering credentials on the server-side, we expect the client-side to gather info and get signature

12:05:12 [caribou]

... the server can verify the proof

12:05:26 [caribou]

... now we are continuing that work

12:06:03 [caribou]

... trying to help users and policy administrators to understand why policies are sometimes violated

12:06:12 [caribou]

... or why a policy has been chosen

12:06:25 [caribou]

... reasoning about policies

12:06:41 [caribou]

Rigo: Semantic Web

12:07:05 [caribou]

Lalana: TAMI uses a specific reasoner

12:08:21 [caribou]

... based on N-Triples + quoting

12:08:48 [caribou]

(TAMI is http://dig.csail.mit.edu/TAMI/)

12:09:56 [caribou]

Renato: what about Rei?

12:10:19 [caribou]

Lalana: Rei is older. It is rules languages expressed in RDF

12:10:53 [caribou]

AIR http://dig.csail.mit.edu/TAMI/

12:10:57 [caribou]

AIR http://dig.csail.mit.edu/TAMI/2007/AIR

12:11:52 [rigo]

policy language requirement for primelife: feedback on policy explanations and detection where policy matching failed

12:15:40 [caribou]

Lalana: are you interested in benchmarks?

12:16:04 [tlr]

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12:16:14 [tlr]

tlr has changed the topic to: PLING back home

12:16:48 [caribou]

Lalana: a set of policies to measure expression of policies in different languages

12:17:04 [caribou]

Rigo: matching requirements with languages

12:18:30 [caribou]

Renato: many requirements make it impossible to find a language that does all

12:18:57 [caribou]

Lalana: test suite to test reasoners

12:19:17 [caribou]

tlr: there are 2 levels of test suites

12:19:50 [caribou]

... policy languages should do this, reasoner should do that

12:21:06 [caribou]

Rigo: some people say XACML is too complex

12:21:19 [caribou]

... you can get infinite requirements from data protection law

12:21:30 [caribou]

... more complexity, less usability

12:22:07 [caribou]

JanS: it is not really complexity, it is that you can not predefine

12:25:18 [tlr]

jans, rigo: primary vs secondary purpose, impedance mismatch between what law says and what formal languages express. Confusion ensues.

12:25:25 [rigo]

limitation of legal complexity to be expressed in policy languages to avoid killing complexity in the legal language

12:25:29 [caribou]

JanS: unclear how far we can go in a given timeframe

12:26:03 [caribou]

Renato: today most web users are not aware of rules/norms

12:26:05 [rigo]

RI: something is already more than we have today

12:26:32 [caribou]

... we can explain to people how they can use what is on the web

12:27:23 [caribou]

... like pushing the media annotations folks to include license in their annotations

12:27:57 [caribou]

JanS: make system admins aware of policies

12:28:14 [caribou]

Renato: in PLF, is SN a big use case?

12:28:22 [caribou]

JanS: yes, one of the 3 main UCs

12:30:13 [caribou]

Renato: any other idea about Policy-Aware Web?

12:31:33 [lkagal_]

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12:34:36 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-pling-minutes.html caribou

12:40:08 [caribou]

Renato shows: http://odrl.net/2.0/WD-ODRL-Model.html

12:41:07 [caribou]

topic: Next steps - Social Network XG proposal?

12:41:49 [caribou]

http://www.gmpg.org/xfn/

12:42:52 [caribou]

http://www.gmpg.org/xfn/intro

12:56:00 [tlr]

ACTION: renato to announce social network XG plans to PLINg list

13:10:00 [oshani]

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13:13:04 [tlr]

There's coffee!

13:15:23 [rigo]

Andreas Matheus interested in formal testing and benchmarking for XACML and geoXACML

13:15:46 [rigo]

RRSAgent, please draft minutes

13:15:46 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-pling-minutes.html rigo

13:17:52 [rigo]

Contact TAS3 for the reputation systems

13:18:01 [rigo]

RRSAgent, please draft minutes

13:18:01 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-pling-minutes.html rigo

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19:29:14 [caribou]

RRSAgent, bye

19:29:23 [caribou]

RRSAgent, make log public

19:29:26 [caribou]

RRSAgent, bye

19:29:26 [RRSAgent]

I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-pling-actions.rdf :

19:29:26 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: renato to announce social network XG plans to PLINg list [1]

19:29:26 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-pling-irc#T12-56-00