IRC log of html-wg on 2008-10-24

Timestamps are in UTC.

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07:09:22 [smedero]
timeless, (+33)4/92977000 (according to Sofitel's website)
07:09:37 [hendry]
3/j mw4d
07:09:38 [SallyC]
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07:10:04 [zcorpan]
so some pages depend on < and > not being escaped in <a href="javascript:<>">
07:10:14 [hendry]
timeless: try me for message, i'm in a meeting but i can pop out during the break with a message
07:10:22 [Hixie]
zcorpan: how so?
07:10:33 [Hixie]
how can it make a difference, i mean
07:10:35 [SallyC]
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07:10:42 [zcorpan]
Hixie: one page does a string replace on the innerHTML
07:10:50 [Hixie]
oh lord
07:10:54 [zcorpan]
07:11:11 [Hixie]
so they want <> not escaped in attribute values in innerHTML?
07:11:18 [zcorpan]
07:11:36 [zcorpan]
apparently firefox and webkit special case javascript urls
07:11:39 [zcorpan]
for innerHTML
07:12:14 [CWilso]
agenda+ 9:00-9:15: Get settled
07:12:24 [zcorpan]
though i'd prefer if <> never was escaped like in ie
07:12:46 [gsnedders]
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07:12:55 [CWilso]
agenda+ 9:15-10:30: Progress review/evaluation of stability of sections of HTML5 spec
07:13:03 [zcorpan]
(except in webkit in javascript urls)
07:13:12 [MikeSmith]
hsivonen: ping
07:13:18 [CWilso]
agenda+ 10:30-11:00: Coffee break
07:13:25 [zcorpan]
Hixie: should i file a bug on the spec?
07:13:37 [Hixie]
i've fixed it already
07:13:39 [Hixie]
checkign it in now
07:13:44 [zcorpan]
cool, thanks
07:13:45 [MikeSmith]
07:14:06 [CWilso]
agenda+ 11:00-11:45 Introduction to writing test cases
07:14:25 [CWilso]
agenda+ 11:45-12:30 writing test cases
07:14:34 [zcorpan]
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07:14:38 [CWilso]
agenda+ 12:30-14:00: Lunch break
07:14:41 [ed]
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07:14:58 [CWilso]
zakim, close agenda item 11
07:14:58 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'close agenda item 11', CWilso
07:15:08 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, drop agendum 1
07:15:08 [Zakim]
agendum 1, implicit accessibility roles, dropped
07:15:08 [CWilso]
zakim, drop agenda item 11
07:15:09 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'drop agenda item 11', CWilso
07:15:27 [myakura]
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07:15:38 [CWilso]
zakim, agenda?
07:15:38 [Zakim]
I see 10 items remaining on the agenda:
07:15:39 [Zakim]
2. authoring guide [from Lachy via DanC_lap]
07:15:40 [Zakim]
3. authentication brainstorm 4:45pm Thu [JR/IH]
07:15:41 [Zakim]
4. table headers attribute 4pm-4:45pm Thu [Joshue]
07:15:42 [Zakim]
5. SVG in text/html 2pm Fri rm exec 7 [Doug]
07:15:44 [Zakim]
6. 9:00-9:15: Get settled [from CWilso]
07:15:45 [Zakim]
7. 9:15-10:30: Progress review/evaluation of stability of sections of HTML5 spec [from CWilso]
07:15:48 [Zakim]
8. 10:30-11:00: Coffee break [from CWilso]
07:15:49 [Zakim]
9. 11:00-11:45 Introduction to writing test cases [from CWilso]
07:15:50 [Zakim]
10. 11:45-12:30 writing test cases [from CWilso]
07:15:50 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, drop agendum 3
07:15:51 [Zakim]
11. 12:30-14:00: Lunch break [from CWilso]
07:15:52 [Zakim]
agendum 3, authentication brainstorm 4:45pm Thu [JR/IH], dropped
07:16:18 [CWilso]
zakim, drop agendum 11
07:16:18 [Zakim]
agendum 11, 12:30-14:00: Lunch break, dropped
07:16:26 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, drop agendum 4
07:16:26 [Zakim]
agendum 4, table headers attribute 4pm-4:45pm Thu [Joshue], dropped
07:16:53 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, drop agendum 5
07:16:53 [Zakim]
agendum 5, SVG in text/html 2pm Fri rm exec 7 [Doug], dropped
07:17:01 [CWilso]
agenda+ 11:45-12:30 Implicit accessibility roles (concurrent discussion)
07:17:01 [Julian_Reschke]
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07:17:18 [CWilso]
agenda+ 12:30-14:00: Lunch break
07:17:46 [CWilso]
agenda+ 14:00-14:45: Review open issues from tracker
07:18:21 [CWilso]
agenda+ 14:45-15:30: wrap up test case/tutorial discussion
07:18:48 [CWilso]
agenda+ 15:30-16:00: Afternoon break
07:19:14 [CWilso]
agenda+ 16:00-17:00: SVG-in-HTML discussion
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07:19:57 [CWilso]
agenda+ 17:00-17:30: Report back from breakouts, wrap up
07:20:03 [CWilso]
zakim, agenda?
07:20:03 [Zakim]
I see 13 items remaining on the agenda:
07:20:04 [Zakim]
2. authoring guide [from Lachy via DanC_lap]
07:20:05 [Zakim]
6. 9:00-9:15: Get settled [from CWilso]
07:20:07 [Zakim]
7. 9:15-10:30: Progress review/evaluation of stability of sections of HTML5 spec [from CWilso]
07:20:10 [Zakim]
8. 10:30-11:00: Coffee break [from CWilso]
07:20:11 [Zakim]
9. 11:00-11:45 Introduction to writing test cases [from CWilso]
07:20:13 [Zakim]
10. 11:45-12:30 writing test cases [from CWilso]
07:20:14 [Zakim]
12. 11:45-12:30 Implicit accessibility roles (concurrent discussion) [from CWilso]
07:20:16 [Zakim]
13. 12:30-14:00: Lunch break [from CWilso]
07:20:18 [Zakim]
14. 14:00-14:45: Review open issues from tracker [from CWilso]
07:20:20 [Zakim]
15. 14:45-15:30: wrap up test case/tutorial discussion [from CWilso]
07:20:21 [Zakim]
16. 15:30-16:00: Afternoon break [from CWilso]
07:20:23 [Zakim]
17. 16:00-17:00: SVG-in-HTML discussion [from CWilso]
07:20:24 [Zakim]
18. 17:00-17:30: Report back from breakouts, wrap up [from CWilso]
07:20:42 [ori]
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07:21:05 [CWilso]
zakim, drop agendum 2
07:21:05 [Zakim]
agendum 2, authoring guide, dropped
07:21:20 [CWilso]
zakim, take up agendum 6
07:21:20 [Zakim]
agendum 6. "9:00-9:15: Get settled" taken up [from CWilso]
07:21:21 [Lachy]
gsnedders, because why bother speaking when you can just type it?
07:21:47 [gsnedders]
Lachy: Why did we even bother to come to France?
07:21:56 [gsnedders]
Lachy: To have somewhere warmer to sit around with laptops?
07:22:50 [Lachy]
gsnedders, I came for the food
07:22:52 [MikeSmith]
07:22:54 [pimpbot]
Title: HTML 5 (at
07:23:03 [ori]
I came for the deserts
07:23:09 [CWilso]
zakim, next item
07:23:09 [Zakim]
agendum 7. "9:15-10:30: Progress review/evaluation of stability of sections of HTML5 spec" taken up [from CWilso]
07:23:23 [CWilso]
zakim, close agendum 6
07:23:23 [Zakim]
agendum 6, 9:00-9:15: Get settled, closed
07:23:24 [Zakim]
I see 11 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
07:23:25 [Zakim]
7. 9:15-10:30: Progress review/evaluation of stability of sections of HTML5 spec [from CWilso]
07:23:34 [karl]
you are here together so you can hear laughters, smiles, sees, etc ;) which is quite cool in human relationships
07:23:47 [heycam]
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07:23:56 [karl]
s/smiles, sees/can smile, can see/
07:24:24 [Lachy]
ori, I haven't seen any deserts in france. But they do have nice desserts
07:24:32 [MikeSmith]
07:24:33 [pimpbot]
Title: HTML 5 (at
07:24:44 [ori]
Yes right :-)
07:25:09 [karl]
aaaah for deserts… there are some kind of deserts in France or very dry or sandy areas.
07:25:27 [karl]
Corsica for example - Désert des Agriates
07:25:36 [ori]
If you want deserts you are welcome to come to my country - Israel
07:27:46 [Hixie]
07:28:19 [gsnedders]
I got "Error: OK (403)"
07:29:10 [tlr]
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07:30:53 [smedero]
scribe: smedero
07:31:06 [MikeSmith]
scribenick: smedero
07:31:16 [gsnedders]
Oh, if you use the username you put and not the email it works
07:31:31 [smedero]
CW: The goal this morning is to go through the spec with an eye towards building a test suite
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07:32:17 [smedero]
MikeSmith: We talked about when the TAG was here, having a rational discussion about what parts of the spec can be split out
07:32:36 [smedero]
MikeSmith: Assess work effort for possible sections
07:32:44 [smedero]
Hixie: I can take a action item to do that
07:33:03 [smedero]
MikeSmith: We should focus now on the status part
07:33:14 [smedero]
... I can take on updating the annotations
07:33:44 [smedero]
Hixie: What info do we want for a section?
07:34:56 [DanC_lap]
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07:35:30 [DanC_lap]
ah... found the annotations hacking I did; it's in
07:35:31 [smedero]
MikeSmith: There is one section we should talk about right now
07:35:31 [pimpbot]
Title: html5/spec/ (at
07:35:37 [najib]
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07:35:48 [smedero]
... 1.4.3 Relationship to XHTML 1.x
07:36:06 [smedero]
Hixie: We are waiting from feedback from the XHTML2 WG
07:36:18 [smedero]
Lachy: What were their complaints?
07:36:24 [smedero]
Hixie: They didn't like it
07:36:43 [smedero]
DanC_lap: We should find the email addressing their complaints
07:37:04 [DanC_lap]
this one from Roland?
07:37:04 [smedero]
07:37:05 [pimpbot]
Title: Re: changes in HTML5 draft regarding XHTML1 from Roland Merrick on 2008-06-20 ( from June 2008) (at
07:37:24 [smedero]
MikeSmith: The initial objections were communicated privately to me
07:37:52 [DanC_lap]
in that 20 jun msg, he accepts the ball "I will put the subject on the agenda for our WG telecon.
07:37:52 [DanC_lap]
07:37:54 [smedero]
MikeSmith: Originally they objected to language that has since been changed
07:38:05 [Hixie] is the latest i could find
07:38:07 [pimpbot]
Title: Re: changes in HTML5 draft regarding XHTML1 from Roland Merrick on 2008-07-31 ( from July 2008) (at
07:38:34 [Julian]
07:38:35 [DanC_lap]
"we will get back to you" -- Merrick 31 July
07:38:40 [pimpbot]
Title: Re: changes in HTML5 draft regarding XHTML1 from Roland Merrick on 2008-07-31 ( from July 2008) (at
07:39:46 [Lachy]
The other messages from the XHTML2 WG:
07:39:46 [Lachy]
07:39:46 [Lachy]
07:39:48 [Lachy]
07:39:48 [pimpbot]
Title: Re: changes in HTML5 draft regarding XHTML1 from Roland Merrick on 2008-06-19 ( from June 2008) (at
07:39:49 [pimpbot]
Title: Re: changes in HTML5 draft regarding XHTML1 from Roland Merrick on 2008-06-19 ( from June 2008) (at
07:39:50 [pimpbot]
Title: XHTML2 WG Virtual FtF Day 3 -- 19 Jun 2008 (at
07:40:21 [smedero]
MikeSmith: Hixie, we need another status category in your annotation tool for sections.
07:40:30 [smedero]
.... "pending feedback"
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07:41:03 [smedero]
Hixie: I would like to add something like "controversial feedback"
07:41:14 [DanC_lap]
issue-52: "we will get back to you" -- Merrick 31 July
07:41:14 [trackbot]
ISSUE-52 Resolve XHTML2 WG objections to language in HTML5 draft regarding XHTML1 notes added
07:41:15 [pimpbot]
Title: Re: changes in HTML5 draft regarding XHTML1 from Roland Merrick on 2008-07-31 ( from July 2008) (at
07:41:49 [bijan]
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07:42:02 [smedero]
ack Julian
07:42:47 [DanC_lap]
html5 is listed in too
07:42:48 [pimpbot]
Title: XHTML namespace (at
07:44:06 [smedero]
DanC: ISSUE-52 contains pointers XHMTL 2 WG's concern with the spec language
07:44:28 [CWilso]
action: ChrisWilson to suggestion text for 1.4.4
07:44:29 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-78 - Suggestion text for 1.4.4 [on Chris Wilson - due 2008-10-31].
07:44:47 [smedero]
MikeSmith: Everytime I go somewhere to speak I am asked "how does XHTML 5 relate to XHTML 1 or 2"?
07:44:57 [DanC_lap]
07:44:57 [trackbot]
ACTION-62 -- Michael(tm) Smith to ensure HTML WG response to XHTML 2 WG re name of XML serialization -- due 2008-10-02 -- OPEN
07:44:57 [trackbot]
07:44:58 [pimpbot]
Title: Re: The only name for the xml serialisation of html5 from Dan Connolly on 2007-10-31 ( from October 2007) (at
07:44:59 [pimpbot]
Title: ACTION-62 - HTML Issue Tracking Tracker (at
07:45:02 [tlr]
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07:45:25 [smedero]
MikeSmith: I can talk to Roland this week and see where we are at
07:46:28 [smedero]
CW: 1.5 is controversial because of the name "XHTML5"
07:47:11 [smedero]
rrsagent, draft minutes
07:47:11 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate smedero
07:47:17 [smedero]
rsagent, make minutes public
07:47:29 [smedero]
rrsagent, make minutes public
07:47:29 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', smedero. Try /msg RRSAgent help
07:49:19 [Sander]
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07:49:27 [smedero]
Lachy: I'm trying to find an older email where concerns were expressed about the namespace
07:49:45 [smedero]
MM: I object to the namespace
07:50:02 [smedero]
CW: Explain why we can't use something else
07:50:15 [smedero]
Hixie: The browsers already use this namespace (in section 2.1.1)
07:50:42 [Lachy]
07:50:43 [pimpbot]
Title: Test (at
07:50:44 [smedero]
MM: I understand that may be your goal, the namespace belongs to the W3C and XHTML
07:51:03 [smedero]
MM: You're applying a different meaning
07:51:17 [CWilso]
issue: Reuse of 1998 XHTML namespace is potentially misleading/wrong
07:51:17 [trackbot]
Created ISSUE-60 - Reuse of 1998 XHTML namespace is potentially misleading/wrong ; please complete additional details at .
07:51:23 [smedero]
Lachy: In Firefox you get a DOM tree
07:52:07 [myakura]
07:52:19 [smedero]
MM: Yesterday we had a talk with TAG about having a contract. There is an expectation with other user-agents and you're violating that contract.
07:52:23 [CWilso]
action: ChrisWilson - send email to spark issue-60
07:52:23 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-79 - - send email to spark issue-60 [on Chris Wilson - due 2008-10-31].
07:52:43 [smedero]
CW: We have evidence then that this section (2.1.1) is controversial
07:52:55 [smedero]
MikeSmith: It might be nice to have a freeform comment field in your annotation tool
07:53:00 [smedero]
Hixie: We do, it is the mailing list
07:53:17 [smedero]
CW: It might be nice though to have these comments inline with the spec
07:53:34 [DanC_lap]
Lachy, is the namespace name observable from tests without using the application/xhtml-xml mime type?
07:53:48 [Lachy]
07:54:22 [zcorpan]
07:54:24 [DanC_lap]
ok. whew. thought I was confused.
07:54:27 [Lachy]
if we were to use a different namespace for the HTML serialisation from the XHTML serialisation, then that would create problems
07:54:40 [Lachy]
and we cannot get away with using a different namespace for XHTML
07:55:17 [DanC_lap]
seems worthwhile, to me, to capture that constraint in a test case. here's hoping.
07:55:36 [zcorpan]
switching namespace is as much of a non-starter as switching all the tag names. in fact it's basically the same thing
07:57:19 [smedero]
MikeSmith: Moving on to review section 2.2
07:57:32 [smedero]
Hixie: Conformance requirements is pretty stable
07:57:54 [smedero]
DanC: I'm very much unhappy about the conformance section
07:58:08 [smedero]
DanC: It is not objective, the conformance requirements depend on the mood of the author
07:58:24 [smedero]
CW: I understand what you are saying, I might put it a different way
07:58:25 [zcorpan]
at least if you switch all the tag names you still keep the HTMLElement interface (so class and style etc still work). if you switch the namespace it's just Element (only xml:lang etc works)
07:58:42 [smedero]
... you should raise the issue if you like
07:58:59 [smedero]
DanC: I've raised it in an email before
07:59:22 [smedero]
CW: You should make a recommendation with alternative language
07:59:23 [DanC_lap]
07:59:25 [pimpbot]
Title: keep conformance objective (detailed review of section 1. Introduction) from Dan Connolly on 2007-08-30 ( from August 2007) (at
07:59:57 [DanC_lap]
issue: conformance depends on author's intent
07:59:57 [trackbot]
Created ISSUE-61 - Conformance depends on author's intent ; please complete additional details at .
08:00:17 [DanC_lap]
issue-61: originates in
08:00:17 [trackbot]
ISSUE-61 Conformance depends on author's intent notes added
08:00:19 [pimpbot]
Title: keep conformance objective (detailed review of section 1. Introduction) from Dan Connolly on 2007-08-30 ( from August 2007) (at
08:00:26 [smedero]
MikeSmith: What about section 2.2.2? "this section will be removed at some point"
08:00:39 [smedero]
Hixie: I want to replace it with a pointer to DOM3CORE
08:01:00 [smedero]
MikeSmith: What is are the asterisks on the spec?
08:01:18 [smedero]
Hixie: Whenever you see those there is a red box in that section
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08:01:48 [smedero]
CW: In section 2.3 is that really what IE does for string comparison?
08:02:04 [smedero]
Hixie: Yes
08:03:00 [smedero]
CW: We'll need to go through and double-check
08:03:14 [smedero]
Hixie: Feedback on this section would be very welcome
08:03:44 [DanC_lap]
(this string compare stuff seems straightforward to test too. but ok... I guess I'm OK to focus more on status/requirements than test-suite-building)
08:04:19 [smedero]
DanC: The annotation system allows for links to test, right?
08:04:22 [smedero]
Hixie: Yes
08:04:53 [marcos]
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08:05:21 [smedero]
MikeSmith: Who has tests for section 2.4.1?
08:05:47 [zcorpan]
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08:06:05 [CWilso]
[in section 2.3 - the issue is that IE does caseless string compares in some situations where other browsers might do ASCII case-insensitive compares. we will need to review each compare to ensure we're making the right decision.]
08:06:08 [smedero]
Geoffery Sneddon: I had test for section 2.4.3 and I've just updated the annotation
08:06:39 [smedero]
... I think my test may be out of date
08:06:44 [gsnedders]
08:07:01 [smedero]
DanC: Someone can try to reproduce your results though
08:07:16 [JonathanJ]
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08:07:54 [smedero]
MM: Can we have pointers in the spec to open issues?
08:08:02 [smedero]
Hixie: It would be hard to keep them up-to-date
08:08:09 [DanC_lap]
(thousands of issues? I count 59. )
08:08:11 [pimpbot]
Title: Issues - HTML Issue Tracking Tracker (at
08:08:16 [smedero]
GS: Could we have something like when a section was last edited?
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08:11:25 [smedero]
MM: What mechanism do we have to know there are no complains?
08:11:37 [CWilso]
08:12:26 [smedero]
MikeSmith: We use the w3c tracker system and the w3c bugzilla system for different groups
08:13:15 [smedero]
MM: I'm not interested in the systems, what is the process used within the working group to determine stability of the spec
08:13:41 [DanC_lap]
hmm... my annotations-munging code seems horked.
08:14:21 [smedero]
... how can different groups tracking the stability of individual sections? the descriptions of the editing states aren't all that helpful
08:15:05 [smedero]
... I'm used to working with a little more clarity with status levels on a document going through an editorial process. it should be more visible to members of other working groups and the public.
08:15:54 [smedero]
BM: What is the process you are used to?
08:16:28 [karl]
08:16:37 [smedero]
MM: That there is a metric to measure stability or clear definition of what the process is
08:17:06 [smedero]
CW: I share your concerns but we need something flexible
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08:17:21 [smedero]
MikeSmith: Having some kinda of mechanism for when the status changes, would be great
08:17:33 [smedero]
... maybe we can have something like an RSS feed or something automated
08:18:05 [smedero]
CW: We need some way to define what a controversial section means
08:18:14 [DanC_lap]
aha... I was matching on match="h:ul[@class='toc']" and it's now an <ol>
08:19:08 [MikeSmith]
08:19:22 [smedero]
Hixie: The issues that have been marked controversial so far, have all been marked just today so I don't have anything other than what is in the minutes for today.
08:19:23 [MikeSmith]
q+ Cynthia
08:19:31 [CWilso]
we are now using the queue
08:19:59 [Julian]
08:20:00 [Hixie]
08:20:11 [CWilso]
ack karl
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08:20:37 [smedero]
Karl Dubost: My impression of the process was that everything is a working draft until there are enough implementations to make a section stable
08:20:51 [cshelly]
08:20:56 [MikeSmith]
q+ Murray
08:20:57 [CWilso]
ack cynthia
08:21:30 [CWilso]
ack cshelly
08:21:44 [smedero]
Cynthia: I want to describe some of the process we had on WCAG.
08:21:58 [smedero]
... we would send out surveys to our members
08:22:04 [tH]
tH has joined #html-wg
08:22:12 [smedero]
... and we would discuss the survey feedback on telecons
08:22:40 [smedero]
... once consensus was reached we didn't reopen sections
08:22:45 [CWilso]
ack julian
08:22:58 [smedero]
Julian: I am confused about the term "last call" on a section
08:23:25 [smedero]
... I'm not sure if it means I only have a certain time left to respond
08:23:45 [smedero]
CW: It is not like "Last Call", in the capital L and C sense
08:23:50 [CWilso]
ack hixie
08:24:18 [dbaron]
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08:24:18 [smedero]
Hixie: Right now there are 2500 outstanding emails
08:24:50 [smedero]
... we are not reopening a section when the feedback has been processed
08:25:16 [smedero]
... but often feedback comes in afterward that necessitates reopening a section (for example, security issues)
08:25:53 [smedero]
... once something is implemented interoperably we don't have much room to change
08:26:18 [CWilso]
ack murray
08:26:22 [smedero]
... once you have implementations and people are using them we can't change them
08:26:25 [cshelly]
08:27:09 [smedero]
MM: There are places for the status of implementations for browsers. Shouldn't one of the status be "not applicable"?
08:27:52 [Hixie]
08:28:03 [smedero]
... the technical part might be stable but the text part might need work still
08:29:26 [smedero]
... it seems to me it would be useful to distinguish between the editor's view and the working group's view
08:30:57 [CWilso]
ack cshelly
08:31:09 [smedero]
... we should leverage the semantic web resources at the w3c because it seems like this spec is a good example of an awesome semantic web application
08:31:10 [DanC_lap]
(our system admin channel bot quips "sounds like a semantic web project" when asked to do something unfamiliar)
08:31:35 [MikeSmith]
08:31:44 [DanC_lap]
[10:32] <DanC_lap>infobot, what about a better tracking system?
08:31:44 [DanC_lap]
[10:32] <infobot>danc_lap: sounds like a good semantic web project
08:31:51 [darobin]
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08:32:22 [smedero]
Cynthia: How do you know when something is done and how do you decide when to reopen?
08:32:31 [MikeSmith]
q+ Murray
08:33:26 [smedero]
CW: We do have a process for that. The decision making process is that editor makes a recommendation in text and we use a number of mechanism to review that.
08:33:35 [smedero]
08:34:22 [smedero]
...we try to have significant discussion about an issue to gauge consensus before we go to polling the working group.
08:34:23 [CWilso]
ack hixie
08:34:28 [DanC_lap]
fixed my code...
08:35:07 [smedero]
Hixie: I want to clarify a comment that Murray made between the difference on my opinion of a section and the working group's opinion.
08:35:21 [smedero]
... my opinion is based on whether or not there is outstanding feedback
08:35:52 [CWilso]
ack murray
08:35:53 [smedero]
08:36:16 [smedero]
MM: There doesn't seem to be an audit trail for feedback.
08:36:32 [smedero]
CW: We do have that, there is the mailing list and issue tracking.
08:36:55 [CWilso]
issue tracking in particular is the answer to the "audit trail" question
08:37:34 [CWilso]
q+ Murray
08:37:49 [smedero]
Hixie: The reason that implementations are already an issue is because the implementors are writing code quickly
08:38:17 [CWilso]
08:38:55 [tlr]
tlr has joined #html-wg
08:38:58 [smedero]
... when there is one implementation we can talk to implementor and make changes but once there are two or three implementations it becomes much harder
08:39:28 [DanC_lap]
08:40:35 [CWilso]
ack murray
08:40:48 [DanC_lap]
(which also serves as a copy of (some of the) annotation data on
08:41:51 [CWilso]
08:42:02 [Lachy]
08:42:03 [pimpbot]
Title: WHATWG Issues List (at
08:44:31 [CWilso]
zakim, take up agendum 8
08:44:31 [Zakim]
agendum 8. "10:30-11:00: Coffee break" taken up [from CWilso]
08:44:40 [smedero]
rrsagent, draft minutes
08:44:40 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate smedero
08:44:53 [smedero]
rrsagent, make public minutes
08:44:53 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'make public minutes', smedero. Try /msg RRSAgent help
08:44:54 [pimpbot]
Title: SV_MEETING_TITLE -- 24 Oct 2008 (at
08:46:12 [smedero]
rrsagent, make logs public
08:46:37 [anne]
did he go out with chaals?
08:46:44 [anne]
08:47:11 [smedero]
anyone else want to scribe? because uh, while this last session went on i've got some issue tracking work I need to catch up
08:47:17 [gsnedders]
+present Michael Smith
08:47:30 [gsnedders]
RRSAgent: draft minutes
08:47:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate gsnedders
08:47:35 [pimpbot]
Title: SV_MEETING_TITLE -- 24 Oct 2008 (at
08:48:21 [gsnedders]
present+ Michael_Smith
08:48:33 [gsnedders]
present+ Chris_Wilson
08:49:05 [gsnedders]
someone needs to do that
08:49:13 [gsnedders]
I can't recall everyone's name offhand
08:53:39 [dom]
Meeting: HTML WG
09:05:29 [gsnedders]
bonjour, mes amis
09:07:06 [CWilso]
09:08:17 [gsnedders]
hsivonen: ping
09:09:06 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, drop agendum 10
09:09:06 [Zakim]
agendum 10, 11:45-12:30 writing test cases, dropped
09:09:27 [gsnedders]
Are at 2.5?
09:09:38 [MikeSmith]
agenda+ 11:45-12:30 authoring guide
09:10:15 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, drop agendum 14
09:10:15 [Zakim]
agendum 14, 14:00-14:45: Review open issues from tracker, dropped
09:10:25 [smedero]
scribe volunteers?
09:12:35 [MikeSmith]
scribenick: cshelly
09:12:43 [MikeSmith]
scribe: CynthiaShelley
09:12:56 [tlr]
tlr has joined #html-wg
09:13:00 [CWilso]
scribe: CynthiaShelly
09:13:13 [cshelly]
topic: 2.5.1, 2.5.2, 2.5.3
09:13:29 [DanC_lap]
i.e. URL sections
09:14:54 [smedero]
chair: MikeSmith
09:15:20 [bijan]
bijan has joined #html-wg
09:16:24 [DanC_lap]
would be great for somebody to pick up testing and report interop results for base uris
09:17:22 [hlee]
hlee has joined #html-wg
09:19:18 [cshelly]
content type is controversial, but what parts are stable?
09:19:48 [CWilso]
chair: ChrisWilson
09:19:56 [smedero]
hsivonen, I believe it is going to be in exec4, which is "upstairs"
09:20:10 [smedero]
(you have to go up a another flight of stairs from the lobby...)
09:20:21 [cshelly]
hsivonen, we'll meet in the WG room, and then go up to exec 4 together
09:20:33 [hsivonen]
smedero, cshelly, thanks
09:20:33 [DanC_lap]
09:20:33 [trackbot]
ISSUE-28 -- Content type rules in HTML 5 overlaps with the HTTP specification? -- CLOSED
09:20:33 [trackbot]
09:20:45 [pimpbot]
Title: ISSUE-28 - HTML Issue Tracking Tracker (at
09:21:25 [cshelly]
which types need to be sniffed? What are never encountered
09:21:30 [gsnedders]
09:21:32 [pimpbot]
Title: Content Sniffing Data (as of September 26, 2008) (at
09:21:51 [gsnedders]
09:21:53 [pimpbot]
Title: [whatwg] Mime sniffing data (at
09:23:52 [DanC_lap]
GS: a problem with writing tests on this is that it doesn't define [missed]
09:23:58 [DanC_lap]
... I sent mail...
09:24:10 [Lachy]
implementation of that content sniffing algorithm in javascript
09:24:11 [pimpbot]
Title: text/html Content Sniffing (at
09:24:22 [ROBOd]
ROBOd has joined #html-wg
09:25:01 [SallyC]
SallyC has joined #html-wg
09:25:14 [cshelly]
action: Hixie to look for other editor for sniffing section
09:25:14 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - Hixie
09:25:21 [gsnedders]
09:25:23 [pimpbot]
Title: Step 10 of Feed/HTML sniffing (part of detailed review of "Determining the type of a new resource in a browsing context") from Geoffrey Sneddon on 2007-08-17 ( from August 2007) (at
09:25:30 [gsnedders]
That's the email I sent
09:25:51 [cshelly]
action: hixie to look for other editor for sniffing section
09:25:51 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - hixie
09:26:17 [CWilso]
action: Hixie to put content-type sniffing section on list of sections to find an editor for
09:26:17 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - Hixie
09:26:26 [CWilso]
action: ChrisWilson: Hixie to put content-type sniffing section on list of sections to find an editor for
09:26:26 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-81 - Hixie to put content-type sniffing section on list of sections to find an editor for [on Chris Wilson - due 2008-10-31].
09:28:00 [cshelly]
hixie: methods starting with xxx are temporary
09:28:05 [Hixie]
DanC_lap: section 3 (of 11)
09:28:22 [JonathanJ]
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09:28:42 [gsnedders] — out of date version of the content-type sniffing algorithm, but shipping
09:28:45 [pimpbot]
Title: SimplePie 1.x - /releases/1.1.1/ - SimplePie (at
09:28:52 [DanC_lap]
(what happened with 2.8?)
09:29:04 [cshelly]
Mike: do we actionally need section 3.1, intro to semantic structure?
09:29:43 [cshelly]
Mike: sections 3 and 4 are core definitions of markup language.
09:31:37 [DanC_lap]
(I'd like to see the security stuff written up in "extended abstract" form or something.)
09:32:59 [DanC_lap]
Hixie: a lot of this stuff [3.2.3 Resource metadata management] is DOM level 0. [ i.e. unstandardized ]
09:33:21 [DanC_lap]
Hixie: there's feedback pending on this... e.g. cookies
09:34:44 [MikeSmith]
q+ Murray
09:35:21 [cshelly]
Mike: web apps dependencies on HTML 5
09:35:37 [cshelly]
Marcos: none on resource metatdata management
09:36:16 [zcorpan]
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09:36:38 [cshelly]
Dan: work the interface name into the seciton title, might make it clearer
09:37:55 [Adam]
Adam has joined #html-wg
09:39:49 [cshelly]
Dan: are global attributes interoperably implemented?
09:39:59 [marcos]
marcos has joined #html-wg
09:40:04 [cshelly]
Hixie: no
09:41:00 [DanC_lap]
Hixie: e.g. draggable has maybe 1 implementation
09:42:11 [cshelly]
Julian: data attribues are soemtimes used for extensibility, but not designed to do that
09:44:37 [DanC_lap]
looking at 3.7 Dynamic markup insertion
09:44:53 [pimpbot]
planet: Ben on contributing to the W3C HTML WG <11>
09:46:06 [cshelly]
Dan: why is innerHTML bad?
09:46:15 [cshelly]
Hixie: it's nto typed. not checking
09:46:37 [DanC_lap]
(innerHTML sounds a little like eval. pointy instrument, but sometimes useful.)
09:46:55 [cshelly]
Timbl: perhaps put in the spec that you shoudl only use innerHTML for balanced stuff and compile time check it?
09:47:11 [DanC_lap]
09:47:12 [cshelly]
Hixie: agree in pricipal, may be hard in javascript
09:47:56 [DanC_lap]
(noodling on a QA/TAG/HTML blog item on innerHTML and document.write() ... )
09:47:59 [anne]
Zakim, in the room
09:47:59 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'in the room', anne
09:48:01 [cshelly]
timbl: document.write is much worse, not adding to the DOM
09:48:44 [cshelly]
timbl: spec that whateve you put in there should correspond to a piece of DOM
09:49:02 [cshelly]
hixie: timbl means something that is well formed and wouldn't throw a parse error
09:49:34 [pimpbot]
Title: ISSUE-1 - XHTML2 Working Group Tracker (at
09:51:11 [cshelly]
Murray: preamble: 2 years ago I was here and teh problem was social: tension btwn XML and HTML communities. GRDDL bridges the gap.
09:51:33 [cshelly]
Murray: in this meeting I see that there is a big social problem btwn HTML WG and the rest of hte world
09:52:12 [cshelly]
here is an opportunity for Semantic Web community to help HTML WG.
09:52:24 [cshelly]
problem is visibility to what is happening, how to track, etc.
09:52:38 [cshelly]
other big problem is lack of resources for editing, providing technical assistance, et.
09:53:01 [cshelly]
Semantic Web part of w3c all about how to relate data and such
09:53:42 [cshelly]
other social problem is that w3c has spent lots of resources on semantic web but there aren't real world uses that have been implemented
09:54:00 [cshelly]
can't wrap my brain around why Tim is havign problems with HTML, and why HTML 5 is having problems with XML
09:54:48 [cshelly]
quite a few members of HTML 5 WG have deep knowledge of XML and understand problems it has for the things people and browsers want to do with HTML
09:55:00 [cshelly]
quite a few XML people willing to accept that feedback
09:55:06 [cshelly]
technologies shoudl work together
09:55:53 [cshelly]
want to put out there the idea of havign the rest of w3c community help the HTML WG work in a way that helps the process and visibility work without interferring with how HTML WG does its job
09:56:10 [zcorpan]
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09:57:10 [cshelly]
tim you have all these resources on Semantic Web, can we improve the status annotation on the HTML 5 draft? Hixie has defined some things, but could be expanded. Would be really useful in all w3c specs
09:57:27 [cshelly]
we're having process problems in this group, and in all groups.
09:58:02 [cshelly]
Marcos: its not the tools, its the people
09:58:10 [cshelly]
Marcos: could be doing it on paper
09:58:39 [cshelly]
Murray: lots of resources applied to semantic web, seems that w3c applying semantic web resources to creating some tools...
09:59:18 [cshelly]
Timbl: in semantic web area, people are developing specs. don't have grad students looking for work.
09:59:40 [cshelly]
timbl: I can understand an argument for moving resources from Semantic Web to HTML.
10:00:01 [cshelly]
timbl: another adjustment you could talk about is to have a concerted tools effort instead of human cycles
10:00:13 [cshelly]
timbl: expanding this tool might be useful
10:00:34 [cshelly]
timbl: neither semantic web nor tools is magic. people still need to do the work.
10:01:05 [cshelly]
timbl: allowing people to extend this so people can mark what's implementation, what's authoring, allowing crowdsourcing
10:01:17 [cshelly]
Dan: I asked for these tools when the WG was set up
10:01:41 [cshelly]
chris wilson suggests hosting a table at lunch to discuss
10:01:45 [cshelly]
time to break
10:01:59 [Adam]
Adam has left #html-wg
10:02:20 [smedero]
rrsagent, draft minutes
10:02:20 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate smedero
10:02:26 [karl]
reconvening at 12:45
10:02:30 [pimpbot]
Title: SV_MEETING_TITLE -- 24 Oct 2008 (at
10:03:12 [karl]
Meeting: HTML WG - 24 October 2008 - Technical Plenary
10:03:26 [karl]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
10:03:26 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate karl
10:03:27 [pimpbot]
Title: HTML WG -- 24 Oct 2008 (at
10:03:34 [smedero]
Chair: ChrisWilson
10:03:50 [smedero]
rrsagent, draft minutes
10:03:50 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate smedero
10:03:52 [pimpbot]
Title: SV_MEETING_TITLE -- 24 Oct 2008 (at
10:04:18 [smedero]
present+ Shawn_Medero
10:04:24 [smedero]
present+ Ian_Hickson
10:04:39 [smedero]
present+ Dan_Connolly
10:04:58 [smedero]
present+ Julian_Reschke
10:05:21 [smedero]
present+ Karl_Dubost
10:06:08 [CWilso]
MS: Summary of where we are with Authoring Guide.
10:06:13 [gsnedders]
Can we have a link in IRC?
10:06:26 [smedero]
10:06:27 [pimpbot]
Title: The Web Developer’s Guide to HTML 5 (at
10:06:36 [CWilso]
thanks smedero.
10:06:37 [myakura]
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10:08:23 [MikeSmith]
10:08:30 [MikeSmith]
ack Murray
10:08:42 [MikeSmith]
scribenick: MikeSmith
10:08:47 [gsnedders]
The document doesn't comply with ISO 2145 — Numbering of divisions and subdivisions in written documents.
10:09:06 [marcos]
marcos has joined #html-wg
10:09:14 [karl]
q+ to talk about resources constraints on this document and deadlines
10:09:15 [MikeSmith]
Lachy is giving and overview of the Editor's Draft of an authoring guide that he has been working on.
10:09:30 [Hixie]
(subgroup is meeting in #role)
10:09:40 [gsnedders]
q+ to ask some questions about problems I see with it
10:09:42 [karl]
I have a better css.
10:10:01 [MikeSmith]
Lachy: text/html examples are shown in gray, XML examples in yellow ...
10:10:04 [zcorpan]
zcorpan has left #html-wg
10:10:42 [MikeSmith]
ack karl
10:10:42 [Zakim]
karl, you wanted to talk about resources constraints on this document and deadlines
10:10:46 [MikeSmith]
10:11:12 [MikeSmith]
Lachy: recently been working on the attributes section
10:11:32 [MikeSmith]
... purpose, syntax, quoted/unquoted, examples
10:12:02 [MikeSmith]
Lachy: types of content (e.g., phrasing, etc.)
10:12:16 [MikeSmith]
... elements section is still sketchy
10:13:29 [MikeSmith]
karl: I asked Lachy what the resource constraints would be
10:13:50 [MikeSmith]
... I'm willing to spend time after the end of November on helping with this.
10:14:26 [MikeSmith]
Lachy: yeah, I've asked for people to help me with this, but so far nobody did
10:14:33 [MikeSmith]
karl: what about a deadline?
10:15:39 [MikeSmith]
Lachy: after I get CSS Selectors API to LC, then I have more time
10:15:54 [MikeSmith]
karl: I can't start working on it before the end of November
10:16:13 [MikeSmith]
karl: could work full time on it for December
10:16:50 [MikeSmith]
Lachy: I want to get a lot of the common elements documented
10:18:05 [MikeSmith]
MikeSmith: maybe a first step would be for you guys to get together and talk about high-level organization of the spec
10:18:06 [CWilso]
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10:19:20 [gsnedders]
10:19:59 [smedero]
ack gsnedders
10:19:59 [Zakim]
gsnedders, you wanted to ask some questions about problems I see with it
10:20:04 [smedero]
10:20:52 [MikeSmith]
gsnedders: [pointing out concerns about the Introduction]
10:21:19 [MikeSmith]
gsnedders: the current draft seems to require too much background knowledge on the part of readers
10:23:03 [MikeSmith]
gsnedders: it needs to make clear what's expected of the person reading it
10:23:14 [MikeSmith]
Lachy: it does provide that information
10:23:42 [MikeSmith]
karl: so who do you think should read the document?
10:24:09 [MikeSmith]
gsnedders: I think it should be something you could learn HTML from, without having [too much] prior knowledge.
10:25:01 [MikeSmith]
karl: I think we should not focus too much on the Introduction.. I think we share the same goals, but we need to get to the meat first.
10:27:55 [MikeSmith]
Lachy: gsnedders, how about you take a shot at rewriting the Introduction?
10:28:17 [gsnedders]
ack gsnedders
10:28:49 [MikeSmith]
gsnedders: yes
10:29:31 [MikeSmith]
CWilso: so it seems like we don't have anything blocking this.. just that it's clear more work needs to be done
10:30:39 [MikeSmith]
[lunck break]
10:45:13 [pimpbot]
planet: Ben Millard on contributing to the W3C HTML WG <11>
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11:44:39 [smedero]
rrsagent, draft minutes
11:44:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate smedero
11:44:41 [pimpbot]
Title: HTML WG -- 24 Oct 2008 (at
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gsnedders has joined #html-wg
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11:48:32 [smedero]
In case anyone didn't catch it yet,
11:48:34 [pimpbot]
Title: notes from "implicit role" breakout session from Anne van Kesteren on 2008-10-24 ( from October 2008) (at
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11:55:20 [MikeSmith]
hsivonen: we're back in you're able to join us
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12:00:09 [MikeSmith]
scribenick: anne
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12:01:05 [anne]
scribe: anne
12:01:36 [anne]
[Going through sections of the HTML5 specification marking up stability of sections. Currently at section 4.]
12:03:08 [anne]
JS: section 4 does not define parsing right?
12:03:13 [anne]
IH: yes
12:03:37 [anne]
JS: (<title> section) does it say that it is live?
12:03:52 [anne]
IH: yes, different section though; should say that, if it doesn't, e-mail
12:04:01 [anne]
IH: <base> section has issues
12:04:13 [anne]
JS: specification doesn't define what we do?
12:04:20 [anne]
IH: it says what IE7 changed to do
12:05:58 [darobin]
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12:06:00 [anne]
IH: I did a study on this; didn't matter much; vast majority of the pages were spam pages or autogenerated index pages
12:06:24 [anne]
JS: I'd love to remove the code
12:07:12 [anne]
[<link> section marked as "last call"]
12:09:22 [anne]
[<style> section]
12:09:36 [anne]
HS: I thought scoped was controversial, dhyatt commented on it
12:09:46 [anne]
HS: I think if dhyatt is not ok with it it counts as controversial
12:11:12 [anne]
DB: there was discussion in the CSSWG whether it should be matched against the root of the whole tree or the subtree
12:11:25 [anne]
LH: I think it should be the whole tree, like in Selectors API
12:11:32 [anne]
JS: perf implications?
12:11:39 [anne]
12:12:24 [anne]
[some stuff about the CSSOM and its editor]
12:12:52 [anne]
IH: <eventsource> is probably "last call" because we get implementations
12:13:01 [anne]
IH: <script> probably not because <script async> is new
12:13:56 [CWilso]
12:14:21 [anne]
JS: we're implementing <eventsource>, not sure what the status is
12:14:21 [CWilso]
zakim, close agendum 8
12:14:21 [Zakim]
agendum 8, 10:30-11:00: Coffee break, closed
12:14:23 [Zakim]
I see 9 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
12:14:24 [Zakim]
7. 9:15-10:30: Progress review/evaluation of stability of sections of HTML5 spec [from CWilso]
12:14:30 [CWilso]
zakim, close agendum 9
12:14:30 [Zakim]
agendum 9, 11:00-11:45 Introduction to writing test cases, closed
12:14:31 [Zakim]
I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
12:14:32 [Zakim]
7. 9:15-10:30: Progress review/evaluation of stability of sections of HTML5 spec [from CWilso]
12:14:42 [CWilso]
zakim, close agendum 12
12:14:42 [Zakim]
agendum 12, 11:45-12:30 Implicit accessibility roles (concurrent discussion), closed
12:14:45 [Zakim]
I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
12:14:46 [Zakim]
7. 9:15-10:30: Progress review/evaluation of stability of sections of HTML5 spec [from CWilso]
12:14:52 [CWilso]
zakim, close agendum 13
12:14:52 [Zakim]
agendum 13, 12:30-14:00: Lunch break, closed
12:14:52 [tlr]
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12:14:53 [Zakim]
I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
12:14:54 [Zakim]
7. 9:15-10:30: Progress review/evaluation of stability of sections of HTML5 spec [from CWilso]
12:14:58 [CWilso]
12:15:21 [CWilso]
zakim, close agendum 19
12:15:22 [Zakim]
agendum 19, 11:45-12:30 authoring guide, closed
12:15:23 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
12:15:24 [Zakim]
7. 9:15-10:30: Progress review/evaluation of stability of sections of HTML5 spec [from CWilso]
12:15:33 [CWilso]
zakim, close agendum 15
12:15:33 [Zakim]
agendum 15, 14:45-15:30: wrap up test case/tutorial discussion, closed
12:15:34 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
12:15:35 [Zakim]
7. 9:15-10:30: Progress review/evaluation of stability of sections of HTML5 spec [from CWilso]
12:16:34 [anne]
HS: are we considering header level implementation part of the <section> section?
12:16:45 [anne]
IH, MS: different section, so no
12:20:08 [anne]
AvK: headings and sections is not really desirable to implement because styling is not addressed
12:20:31 [anne]
DB: CSS also needs changes for CSS counters and user agent style sheets will need changes for sizes
12:20:41 [anne]
HS: has the CSS WG looked into that?
12:20:50 [anne]
DB: no, but I have sort of a mental action item to look into that
12:21:07 [anne]
LH: it would be nice if the CSS WG defined Selectors for this so you can easily select all second level headings
12:21:27 [anne]
12:25:22 [anne]
IH: for the <q> section we need to figure out quoting, so "working draft"
12:25:53 [anne]
JS: so is that a break from HTML4?
12:25:56 [anne]
IH: yes
12:26:47 [anne]
IH: we're screwed either way
12:27:43 [jun]
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12:27:48 [anne]
DB: Firefox does it but gets complaints from different locales because people do not agree on quotation rules
12:28:08 [anne]
CW: sigh, we did it the HTML4 way in IE8
12:28:09 [gsnedders]
q:lang(en)::before { content: '"'; } — anyone agree with that? :P
12:28:27 [myakura]
Lach, ::before is css3, so probably not
12:28:38 [myakura]
12:29:12 [anne]
[missed bits]
12:29:21 [anne]
DB: so maybe we should drop support for it before IE8 does
12:29:43 [karl]
gsnedders: you meant q:lang(en)::before { content: '“'; }
12:29:58 [anne]
HS: one option would be to obsolete quote and require ugly quotation marks in the rendering section
12:30:20 [karl]
12:30:37 [anne]
DB: people don't agree what the quotation rules for English are at the third nested level
12:30:37 [gsnedders]
karl: I did deliberately do " :)
12:30:44 [ht]
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12:30:53 [karl]
12:31:01 [anne]
DB: the Bible has five levels deep and is widely translated, and different locales disagree on a lot of things
12:31:19 [anne]
HS: I would like to add that the Bible is a bad use case for tree based markup as it has overlapping ranges
12:31:32 [gsnedders]
karl, doesn't it make no difference for non-scribes?
12:31:58 [anne]
s/on a lot of things/on the quotation rules/
12:32:48 [hsivonen]
gsnedders, a verse can span a paragraph break, IIRC
12:33:02 [gsnedders]
hsivonen, Yeah. Often does.
12:33:04 [dbaron] for 5-nesting of quotes
12:33:05 [pimpbot]
Title: Re: Deep nesting of quotes from Simon Montagu on 2006-05-16 ( from May 2006) (at
12:33:28 [DanC_lap]
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12:33:56 [anne]
[text-level semantics]
12:34:09 [anne]
IH: outstanding feedback on all of them
12:34:30 [anne]
MS: what about footnotes
12:34:42 [anne]
IH: they are conventions that people should use for footnotes
12:35:15 [gsnedders]
Example of overlapping range: <>
12:35:18 [pimpbot]
Title: Mark 14:64 :: Bible Search (at
12:37:27 [gsnedders]
Lachy: The verse cannot be marked up as a single element because it continues beyond the paragraph break
12:37:30 [anne]
IH: the <legend> element is reused and it's not clear whether that is actually possible due to legacy
12:37:34 [hsivonen]
Lachy, consider both paras and verses as containers
12:37:42 [anne]
JS: was this fixed in Firefox 3?
12:37:49 [anne]
IH: I think it was one of the things it wasn't
12:38:10 [anne]
IH: in Mozilla <legend> implies a <fieldset>
12:38:22 [anne]
IH: other browsers just drop it on the ground
12:38:38 [anne]
IH: nobody relies on this one way or another
12:38:55 [Lachy]
hsivonen, ok, it makes sense if I look at it in context, and see how the passage numbers are used
12:39:03 [anne]
IH: I would like not to add yet another way to mark up a heading
12:39:38 [anne]
HS: I think the legacy parsing will scare away authors so I would prefer a new name
12:40:03 [anne]
IH: it will hamper transition, but delaying it another couple of years is fine with me given the cost it would add to the language
12:40:43 [anne]
[<img> section]
12:40:54 [anne]
IH: the red box regarding longdesc is a lie, I have considered that feedback
12:41:11 [anne]
DB: what about image maps?
12:41:15 [anne]
IH: separate section
12:41:45 [AndrewR]
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12:43:50 [anne]
12:44:08 [anne]
HS: does it work for e.g. chrome to have a separate process for the nested browsing context
12:44:20 [anne]
IH: that has been taken into consideration
12:45:10 [JonathanJ]
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12:46:44 [anne]
[object and embed]
12:46:58 [anne]
[how classid maps to a plugin per platform etc.]
12:50:13 [anne]
12:50:14 [pimpbot]
Title: Bluish Coder: HTML 5 Video Element Examples (at
12:50:40 [hsivonen]
12:50:41 [pimpbot]
Title: Index of /test/moz/video-selection (at
12:53:41 [anne]
[going through the media element section]
12:53:56 [anne]
JS: smaug was saying loadend was not relevant
12:54:06 [anne]
IH: we have load, error and abort, so loadend does make sense
12:55:57 [anne]
CW: what "Implemented and widely deployed" mean beyond "last call"
12:55:59 [anne]
IH: yeah
12:59:26 [Norbert]
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13:00:04 [sicking]
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13:00:26 [anne]
[discussion whether there should be annotations for sections that could be moved out of the spec]
13:00:46 [anne]
IH: it's typically not a concrete section, but rather several sections that have to be taken out together
13:02:10 [anne]
HS: for the <map> element, should we annotate it with browser support regarding HTML and XML
13:02:35 [anne]
MS: we can't do that level of detail
13:06:36 [Lachy]
scribenick: Lachy
13:06:42 [Lachy]
scribe: Lachlan Hunt
13:07:32 [Lachy]
MS: We could probably skip the forms section today
13:07:47 [Lachy]
... also Tables
13:08:10 [Lachy]
IH: Forms has a lot of feedback pending.
13:08:22 [Lachy]
... Most feedback on tables is about headers
13:09:52 [oshani]
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13:10:19 [raphael]
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13:10:43 [Lachy]
[added a few annotations to the forms and table sections]
13:11:29 [Lachy]
IH: I'm hoping we'll get at least one implemented working on the datagrid section and provide feedback.
13:11:37 [Lachy]
... No-one has said it's bad
13:11:58 [Lachy]
MS: Is the name of the <bb> element stable?
13:12:01 [Lachy]
IH: No
13:12:10 [anne]
heh, the interface name is actually BrowserButton
13:12:30 [Lachy]
... It was added in response to Apple's feedback, wanting to provide an in page way of triggering application functionality
13:13:04 [MoZ]
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13:13:32 [Lachy]
JS: Why not use a JS API?
13:13:43 [Lachy]
IH: It's to prevent annoying abuses that are possible with JS
13:13:56 [Lachy]
CW: I'm not sure this is better than an API though
13:17:30 [Lachy]
HS: How much of the rendering section will be different from the CSS appendix?
13:17:48 [Lachy]
IH: Rendering is a misnomer. It contains more than just basic styles
13:18:17 [Lachy]
... There's 2 big issues: The obsolete APIs and elements, and how to map that to CSS
13:18:55 [plinss_]
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13:19:29 [Lachy]
HS: My spec scraper works better when each element is defined in only one place
13:19:55 [Lachy]
IH: [points out other problems that still don't solve Henri's issues]
13:20:04 [Hixie]
dbaron, wfm in ff trunk
13:22:20 [smedero]
Philip, did you ever file this bug properly with the IE folks?
13:22:23 [pimpbot]
Title: IRC logs: freenode / #whatwg / 20081008 (at
13:23:19 [ed]
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13:23:59 [Philip]
smedero, no - I started trying to write some proper tests for all the localStorage stuff rather than reporting bugs randomly, but then I kind of got bored/lazy/distracted/busy and didn't get anywhere
13:24:38 [Philip]
(Firefox had strange bugs with funny characters in globalStorage too)
13:25:00 [SallyC]
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13:25:30 [smedero]
ahh, ok. I can help out a bit if you want to (and it makes sense to) split up that work.
13:26:36 [CWilso]
action: ChrisWilson to come up with a 16x16 image icon for IE for implementation chart
13:26:36 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-83 - Come up with a 16x16 image icon for IE for implementation chart [on Chris Wilson - due 2008-10-31].
13:28:12 [Philip]
smedero, I started doing something based on my canvas test framework with all the canvas-specific bits ripped out, with the intention of adding storage-specific bits (like the ability to run each test on a separate domain to get independent storage areas), so I probably should try to finish that stuff, and then the actual tests should be fairly straightforward to write :-)
13:35:41 [MikeSmith]
RRSAgent, please make minutes
13:35:41 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate MikeSmith
13:35:42 [pimpbot]
Title: HTML WG -- 24 Oct 2008 (at
13:36:03 [MikeSmith]
[afternoon break until 4pm CET]
14:02:15 [plinss_]
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14:02:40 [aroben]
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14:08:16 [DanC_lap]
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14:08:32 [Philip]
CWilso, you could print out some SVG people from
14:08:33 [pimpbot]
Title: Image:Human.svg - Wikimedia Commons (at
14:10:08 [plinss_]
plinss_ has joined #html-wg
14:10:47 [MikeSmith]
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14:11:02 [hsivonen]
14:11:03 [pimpbot]
Title: Re: SVG in HTML proposal from Henri Sivonen on 2008-07-21 ( from July 2008) (at
14:11:25 [MikeSmith]
Topic: SVG in text/html
14:11:31 [MikeSmith]
scribenick: MikeSmith
14:11:54 [MikeSmith]
CWilso: so... SVG in text/html
14:12:05 [olivier]
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14:12:31 [Hixie]
14:12:35 [sicking]
ack wft
14:12:36 [CWilso]
ack wfm
14:12:36 [ChrisL]
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14:12:46 [shepazu]
14:12:47 [pimpbot]
Title: SVG and HTML (at
14:12:55 [MikeSmith]
14:12:56 [shepazu]
14:12:57 [pimpbot]
Title: Feedback on SVGWG's SVG-in-text/html proposal from Ian Hickson on 2008-08-28 ( from August 2008) (at
14:13:42 [MoZ]
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14:14:18 [MikeSmith]
shepazu: we did incorporate some feedback we got on our proposal
14:14:38 [MikeSmith]
... nothing is set in stone, we can make further refinements to the proposal
14:15:16 [MikeSmith]
ChrisL: I assume it's a goal that developers should not have to rewrite scripts and such
14:15:17 [SallyC]
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14:15:32 [chaals]
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14:15:40 [MikeSmith]
aroben: yeah, issue is just about the syntax
14:15:52 [aroben]
MikeSmith: hm?
14:16:25 [MikeSmith]
CWilso: all comes down to the syntax
14:16:42 [Lachy]
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14:16:45 [CWilso]
14:16:48 [MikeSmith]
shepazu: we have disagreements about the syntax, but is there anything else?
14:17:51 [hsivonen]
14:17:52 [pimpbot]
Title: Re: SVG in HTML proposal from Henri Sivonen on 2008-07-21 ( from July 2008) (at
14:17:53 [MikeSmith]
hsivonen: in July, I sent a message about the proposal but did not get a reply...
14:18:24 [MikeSmith]
shepazu: we made some changes because of comments you, hsivonen, made
14:18:44 [Lachy]
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14:18:45 [MikeSmith]
hsivonen: I was objecting to the whole premise of how the integration would be done [in your proposal]
14:18:53 [MikeSmith]
... about which tokenizer is used
14:19:06 [MikeSmith]
... I've implemented the proposal that was commented out
14:19:23 [MikeSmith]
... I estimated what work it would take to implement it in Gecko and in Java SE
14:19:55 [MikeSmith]
... and my assessment is that it's much easier in both cases to implement the commented-out proposal [from Hixie]
14:20:19 [MikeSmith]
hsivonen: I sent comments about why the SVG WG is not implementable
14:20:36 [MikeSmith]
... I fundamentally disagree with having an XML parser inside the HTML parser
14:20:41 [Hixie]
14:20:57 [chaals]
14:21:13 [MikeSmith]
ChrisL: I disagree. You've not shown that it's massively inefficient.
14:21:18 [r12a]
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14:21:22 [ed]
14:21:24 [CWilso]
ack Hixie
14:21:26 [MikeSmith]
hsivonen: I don't think I need to implement it [in order to prove it]
14:21:43 [MikeSmith]
Hixie: a question that came out is a question of goals
14:21:44 [shepazu]
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14:22:01 [ChrisL]
14:22:05 [Hixie]
Is it a goal that anything that is functional in text/html be functional when copied and pasted into image/svg+xml
14:22:13 [chaals]
q+ to talk about implementation and propose an answer to hixie
14:22:14 [MikeSmith]
shepazu: Hixe, do you mean anything?
14:22:19 [MikeSmith]
Hixie: anything *SVG*
14:22:29 [MikeSmith]
ChrisL: to the extent possible
14:22:30 [hsivonen]
14:22:39 [Hixie]
14:22:55 [MikeSmith]
ChrisL: hsivonen makes a good point... e.g., Illustrator puts entities in
14:23:07 [chaals]
ack me
14:23:07 [Zakim]
chaals, you wanted to talk about implementation and propose an answer to hixie
14:23:07 [CWilso]
ack chaals
14:23:08 [MikeSmith]
ChrisL: so losing that would be fine
14:23:23 [MikeSmith]
chaals: we have not thoroughly implemented either system ...
14:23:24 [sicking]
14:23:31 [ChrisL]
but i want most SVG to be usable. Some bits with entities may need modification, thats fine
14:23:46 [shepazu]
14:24:19 [MikeSmith]
... but in our assessment, in practical terms, the two proposals will work [equally well] -- after looking at the costs .. based on a "desk check"
14:25:00 [MikeSmith]
chaals: I think it is a goal that where it is feasible, you should be able to take SVG content out of text/html content, and stick it into, e.g., and editor
14:25:19 [darobin]
q+ to reflect on tools
14:25:36 [MikeSmith]
... we don't want to break the use case of cut-and-paste in that scenario
14:25:36 [CWilso]
ack ed
14:26:19 [MikeSmith]
ed: to me it's not a goal to allow something to be very different from the syntax we have now
14:26:27 [CWilso]
ack hs
14:26:33 [MikeSmith]
... important to stay as close as possible to what is out there already
14:27:00 [MikeSmith]
hsivonen: I agree about the importance of the copy-and-paste from browser into editor
14:27:12 [billmason]
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14:27:38 [MikeSmith]
... but following the line of thought, it leads to breaking the fundamental permissive nature of text/html (the "host" format)
14:28:05 [CWilso]
14:28:27 [MikeSmith]
hsivonen: you can get around this without making fundamental changes to HTML parsing ...
14:30:04 [MikeSmith]
... some browsers allows you to [output a well-formed serialized output of the DOM]
14:30:19 [hsivonen]
14:31:07 [MikeSmith]
shepazu: we can't count on that functionality being available always, and don't want to spec it as a requirement
14:31:39 [MikeSmith]
shepazu: problem case is of some of this funky [not-well-formed] SVG getting propogated
14:31:45 [karl]
There is a *virtuous* circle to keep good markup or even improve it in an ecosystem.
14:31:46 [MikeSmith]
... somebody thinks it should work, but it won't
14:32:21 [CWilso]
ack Hixie
14:32:36 [MikeSmith]
shepazu: so your scenario [serialized DOM output] does not solve the problem
14:32:52 [MikeSmith]
Hixie: so we need to look as [what the problem is that we want to solve]
14:33:01 [MoZ]
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14:33:41 [MikeSmith]
... if we think that it's a goal that anything that is functional in HTML should always be functional when pasted into XML, then the SVGWG does not satisfy that requirement
14:33:54 [MikeSmith]
shepazu: I think you do not require attribute quoting?
14:33:58 [MikeSmith]
Hixie: correct
14:34:16 [MikeSmith]
Hixie: another example is omitting the SVG end tag
14:34:19 [CWilso]
ack sicking
14:34:30 [Hixie]
14:34:49 [MikeSmith]
sicking: I think we [may have] incompatible goals
14:35:15 [MikeSmith]
ChrisL: being able to draw something in a drawing tool and paste it into an HTML document, yeah, of course that should work
14:35:29 [gsnedders]
14:35:57 [MikeSmith]
sicking: other goals are that the way that HTML authoring is done should also be OK for SVG
14:36:33 [MikeSmith]
... but that is an incompatible goal ... string concatenation... people generating invalid markup ... writing HTML docs in Notepad, et.c
14:36:47 [CWilso]
ack shepazu
14:36:54 [MikeSmith]
ChrisL: people do already generate SVG in those ways [using PHP, etc.]
14:37:06 [MikeSmith]
sicking: we need goals
14:37:16 [CWilso]
q+ to suggest that we walk through the goals and straw-poll each
14:37:37 [MikeSmith]
sicking: if we talk about requirements first, then we can work together toward a solution
14:37:51 [ChrisL]
14:37:53 [CWilso]
ack danrobin
14:37:57 [CWilso]
ack darobin
14:37:57 [Zakim]
darobin, you wanted to reflect on tools
14:38:03 [MikeSmith]
darobin: about the goals thing ...
14:38:19 [MikeSmith]
... everyone agrees that we want to have SVG in HTML
14:38:38 [MikeSmith]
... the editor vendors will make it happen ...
14:39:04 [MikeSmith]
... it will be cheap to add an HTML5 parser to an editing application
14:39:29 [MikeSmith]
... currently, SVG is being produced by [people who are more XML-aware]
14:39:37 [CWilso]
ack hs
14:40:02 [MikeSmith]
... but once SVG gets very widely used, [the "funky" instances of it] will increase, and we will have to deal with them
14:40:51 [MikeSmith]
hsivonen: I think our goal should be that browsers will have the UI [for outputting a serialized DOM]
14:41:13 [CWilso]
14:42:34 [MikeSmith]
hsivonen: browsers already have a different parser for text/html and XML, so...
14:42:41 [CWilso]
ack hixie
14:42:44 [anne]
hsivonen, I think the point from Chris Lilley is that nobody has implemented the proposal from the SVG WG yet so in theory it is unclear which one is simpler; though you did point out you thought it was sort of "doomed" the way it is currently written
14:42:51 [MikeSmith]
... suggesting that they wouldn't do so seems weird because they are already doing it
14:43:31 [Lachy]
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14:43:59 [MikeSmith]
Hixie: I think it is possible to avoid allowing "tag soup" parsing support for SVG ...
14:44:00 [shepazu]
14:44:21 [MikeSmith]
... but we don't have agreement about that being a reasonable goal
14:44:26 [CWilso]
ack ch
14:44:26 [Zakim]
chaals, you wanted to suggest that we drop the hand-raising protocol and force people to simply remember their rebuttals and wait their turn and to suggest that we drop the
14:44:29 [Lachy]
Just in regards to the UI suggestion from Henri, I just want to point out that there are several alternatives besides providing a way to get the DOM source, such as simply using "Save Image As..." to export a well-formed, re-serialised copy of the image to an SVG file.
14:44:29 [Zakim]
... hand-raising protocol and force people to simply remember their rebuttals and wait their turn (and some other stuff about hand-coding)
14:44:54 [MikeSmith]
chaals: our experience is that by-and-large, the quality of SVG has improved over time ...
14:45:08 [MikeSmith]
... due to it being a goal that we enforce quality requirements
14:45:23 [MikeSmith]
... majority case is drawing tools, yeah ...
14:45:37 [MikeSmith]
... but they are also generating using PHP, whatever ...
14:46:04 [MikeSmith]
... and they do go back and fix their code [if it turns out it's not producing well-formed SVG]
14:46:19 [MikeSmith]
... we do see it as a goal to keep SVG parsing strict ...
14:46:43 [MikeSmith]
... tools for SVG have remained high-quality ...
14:47:05 [MikeSmith]
... we don't see it as a goal to make the [SVG content] crappier than it already is ...
14:47:20 [MikeSmith]
chaals: an area where that's important is mobile
14:47:33 [MikeSmith]
... whilst that world is also changing ...
14:47:36 [sicking]
14:47:38 [hsivonen]
q+ to talk about mobile
14:47:43 [MikeSmith]
... proper browsers being deployed ...
14:48:16 [CWilso]
ack mew
14:48:18 [MikeSmith]
... but to blow that off -- to allow [become more tolerant of] crappy SVG code
14:48:22 [CWilso]
ack me
14:48:22 [Zakim]
CWilso, you wanted to suggest that we walk through the goals and straw-poll each
14:48:27 [MikeSmith]
... [we don't want to do that]
14:48:43 [MikeSmith]
CWilso: so can we look at the set of goals?
14:48:43 [ChrisL]
14:48:48 [ChrisL]
14:48:56 [MikeSmith]
[we have only 10 minutes left]
14:49:02 [Hixie]
14:49:03 [pimpbot]
Title: Feedback on SVGWG's SVG-in-text/html proposal from Ian Hickson on 2008-08-28 ( from August 2008) (at
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14:50:14 [CWilso]
ack sicking
14:50:32 [MikeSmith]
sicking: concerned about having a requirement about strict parsing ...
14:50:41 [Hixie]
darobin: eh, i start all mine by saying "i, er, i think, there is, hm, if we, hm, ..." ;-)
14:50:49 [shepazu]
me that's because I usually go on for half an hour :)
14:51:44 [MikeSmith]
... is [the problem of unstable equilibrium which we have learned] that there is a risk it will just not happen that way in the long run
14:52:16 [MikeSmith]
ChrisL: is it a goal to stop people from putting in well-formed content?
14:52:27 [CWilso]
* It should be possible to drop an SVG file from a graphic editor into an
14:52:27 [CWilso]
HTML5 document sent as text/html and usually have it validate and work.
14:52:45 [MikeSmith]
[everybody expresses agreement that we don't want to penalize anybody for having WF-content]
14:53:15 [CWilso]
* The DOM aspect of this should be very similar to using SVG in XHTML, so
14:53:15 [CWilso]
that there is no work required beyond parser changes for text/html.
14:53:16 [MikeSmith]
[agreement within rough consensus?]
14:53:23 [ChrisL]
(whether it validates or not is irrelevant to me, but it should render as expected)
14:53:46 [CWilso]
* The DOM aspect of this should be very similar to using SVG in XHTML, so
14:53:46 [ChrisL]
I'm glad that penalising WF is not a goal
14:53:46 [CWilso]
that there is no work required beyond parser changes for text/html.
14:54:10 [MikeSmith]
[agreement from all]
14:54:15 [CWilso]
* Changes to the parser should be relatively small and localised. For
14:54:15 [CWilso]
example, it should double the number of states in the tokeniser, or add
14:54:15 [CWilso]
half a dozen tree construction insertion modes.
14:54:27 [CWilso]
s/double/not double
14:54:54 [CWilso]
* The parsing model should be very light-weight. It shouldn't require,
14:54:54 [CWilso]
for example, extra buffering, or parsing text twice.
14:55:02 [dbaron]
s/double/not double/
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14:55:59 [MikeSmith]
shepazu: I don't strongly oppose this goal.
14:56:10 [r12a]
s/not not double/not double/
14:56:33 [MikeSmith]
chaals: the underlying goal is that the processing is reasonably efficient
14:56:50 [MikeSmith]
... the stated goal has more implementation detail in it than needed
14:57:06 [MikeSmith]
[no broad consensus on this goal]
14:57:09 [CWilso]
* The markup should be as easy to edit by hand as regular HTML, modulo
14:57:09 [CWilso]
complications due to the vocabulary itself.
14:57:21 [MikeSmith]
ChrisL: it over-constrains implementations
14:58:13 [MikeSmith]
CWilso: "as small as an elephant"
14:58:13 [hsivonen]
I agree with the goal
14:58:29 [MikeSmith]
[broad consensus]
14:58:30 [CWilso]
* The syntax shouldn't introduce two different syntaxes for HTML
14:58:30 [CWilso]
elements in text/html. For example, it should be possible to take a big
14:58:30 [CWilso]
blob of existing HTML, and wrap it in a <foreignObject> and have it
14:58:30 [CWilso]
just work, without having to fix up missing end tags or namespace
14:58:30 [CWilso]
declarations or whatever.
14:59:23 [MikeSmith]
14:59:24 [CWilso]
* If possible, the same mechanism should work for both MathML and SVG,
14:59:25 [CWilso]
and it should make it relatively easy to introduce other vocabularies
14:59:25 [CWilso]
in future, at least for vocabularies designed with this mechanism in
14:59:25 [CWilso]
14:59:54 [MikeSmith]
ChrisL: problematic
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15:00:53 [CWilso]
* Markup seen on real pages today, and errors of a similar vain,
15:00:53 [CWilso]
shouldn't result in dramatically different renderings in browsers that
15:00:53 [CWilso]
support this feature.
15:01:13 [CWilso]
15:01:35 [MikeSmith]
Hixie: this is the "don't break legacy pages" requirement
15:01:54 [MikeSmith]
ed: the question is "At what cost?"
15:02:50 [ChrisL]
depends on which broken pages you want to preserve.
15:03:10 [MikeSmith]
shepazu: some of your pages that you [Hixie] gave as examples are [totally broken]
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15:04:11 [MikeSmith]
[discussion about whether it's feasible to do educate/evangelize to get people to fix their broken content
15:05:01 [MikeSmith]
Hixie: this a the single most important requirement from the POV of the Chrome team
15:05:44 [MikeSmith]
ChrisL: SVG pages which currently work -- which produce some useful output -- should continue working
15:05:50 [Hixie]
15:05:51 [pimpbot]
Title: New Page 1 (at
15:05:53 [Hixie]
^ that one
15:06:48 [MikeSmith]
hsivonen: [describes a cargo-cult copy-and-paste scenario
15:07:27 [CWilso]
We must not require users to declare namespace prefixes correctly.
15:07:29 [MikeSmith]
sicking: I want to find out how common [the case is that we currently are discussing]
15:07:48 [MikeSmith]
ChrisL: I would like this clarified.
15:08:24 [Lachy]
15:08:29 [Lachy]
15:08:46 [Lachy]
15:09:04 [MikeSmith]
CWilso: so you can have an svg element and all its children without the namespace
15:09:20 [CWilso]
* If possible, we shouldn't expose users to namespace syntax at all,
15:09:20 [CWilso]
though the DOM still needs to expose the namespaces.
15:09:21 [MikeSmith]
... that should be allowed ...
15:09:35 [MikeSmith]
ChrisL: but it should not disallow the namespaces
15:10:32 [MikeSmith]
hsivonen: one issue is, should it render as SVG if you have a namespace, but it's the wrong namespace?
15:10:36 [CWilso]
Hixie: we should definitely allow the xmlns case.
15:10:43 [Lachy]
ack Lachy
15:11:54 [MikeSmith]
sicking: seems like the third issue [wrong namespace] is the only one we don't have agreement on
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15:12:53 [MikeSmith]
sicking: do we want it to be possible to use an off-the-shelf XML parser?
15:14:12 [MikeSmith]
sicking: are we OK to restricting ourselves to non-off-the-shelf XML parsers?
15:14:45 [MikeSmith]
hsivonen: the problem is, that presupposes part of the solution?
15:15:32 [MikeSmith]
sicking: if I as an implementor am not OK with writing my own XML parser, than that excludes [some implementors]
15:15:41 [CWilso]
15:15:42 [smedero]
15:15:51 [MikeSmith]
Hixie: writing your own XML parser is not a small and localized change
15:17:09 [MikeSmith]
CWilso: I think we are narrowing down to get an idea of where the disagreements about goals are.
15:17:22 [shepazu]
* It is not a goal that any valid SVG file must be embeddable in
15:17:22 [shepazu]
text/html. (Only the syntax that is actually widely used need be
15:17:22 [shepazu]
15:17:50 [MikeSmith]
shepazu: this is not talking about whitelisting?
15:18:20 [MikeSmith]
Hixie: this is about SVG that uses namespace prefixes or that use an DTD internal subset
15:18:50 [MikeSmith]
ChrisL: only place I see people using prefixes in SVG is in compound documents
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15:19:34 [MikeSmith]
shepazu: OK, I don't think this is controversial
15:20:26 [MikeSmith]
[strong consensus that this is a non-goal]
15:20:30 [shepazu]
* It is not a goal that anything that is valid text/html be valid
15:20:31 [shepazu]
image/svg+xml. In particular, whether to use case-sensitive or case-
15:20:31 [shepazu]
insensitive tag and attribute names at the syntax level should be
15:20:31 [shepazu]
driven from implementation performance choices, not conformance.
15:20:48 [MikeSmith]
shepazu: case sensitivity...
15:20:57 [MikeSmith]
... related to error-correction
15:21:05 [Hixie]
15:21:16 [CWilso]
ack sh
15:21:41 [MikeSmith]
ChrisL: if you're allowed to doing the stuff that the SVG spec says, or corrects it to conform to the SVG spec, then fine
15:21:50 [CWilso]
ack hs
15:21:50 [Zakim]
hsivonen, you wanted to talk about mobile
15:22:04 [CWilso]
ack Ch
15:22:06 [MikeSmith]
hsivonen: the performance issue here is very important
15:22:58 [MikeSmith]
anne: we've had no implementations of the SVGWG proposal, [so we don't have any data]
15:23:41 [karl]
the debate on performance should be really put aside before having real data on the table for the two options
15:23:53 [MikeSmith]
shepazu: how about if the spec says it's strongly recommended or "SHOULD" that authors should try to [follow XML well-formedness constraints]
15:24:02 [CWilso]
ack hixie
15:24:13 [sicking]
15:24:43 [CWilso]
ack s
15:25:36 [hsivonen]
15:25:56 [MikeSmith]
sicking: requiring the SVG parts to be totally XML-compliant is fine... but authors are going to do whatever ends up working in browsers
15:27:03 [MikeSmith]
[discussion about the fact that quotes are in fact needed even in some cases in text/html]
15:27:18 [MikeSmith]
ChrisL: "quotes are not required except when they are"
15:28:16 [smedero]
15:28:16 [sicking]
15:28:18 [MikeSmith]
15:28:36 [Hixie]
15:28:38 [CWilso]
ack h
15:29:47 [MikeSmith]
hsivonen: I'm not fine with requiring that a parser used for a validator be different from the parser used by validators.
15:29:52 [karl]
15:30:05 [MikeSmith]
s/used by validators/used by browsers/
15:30:22 [MikeSmith]
Murray: are there levels of conformance?
15:30:59 [MikeSmith]
karl: people will always choose the more liberal choice
15:31:07 [MikeSmith]
CWilso: they will choose random levels
15:31:27 [MikeSmith]
15:31:30 [MikeSmith]
ack karl
15:31:37 [CWilso]
q+ to say go home. Get out.
15:31:56 [MikeSmith]
sicking: majority of people test it in a browser, if it works, OK
15:32:08 [MikeSmith]
RRSAgent, please make minutes
15:32:08 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate MikeSmith
15:32:10 [pimpbot]
Title: HTML WG -- 24 Oct 2008 (at
15:32:11 [sicking]
last post!
15:32:19 [gsnedders]
last + 1 post!
15:32:30 [anne]
15:34:51 [MikeSmith]
[we wrap up in the company of members of the SVG WG]
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16:23:40 [MikeSmith]
RRSAgent, please make minutes
16:23:40 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate MikeSmith
16:23:41 [pimpbot]
Title: HTML WG -- 24 Oct 2008 (at
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23:54:29 [Philip]
I haven't had any reason to disconnect my IRC client for the past 80 days
23:55:44 [chaals]
save the planet! Stop using so many bytes. And PLEASE, Think of the children...
23:55:51 [chaals]
oh, wait.
23:55:53 [chaals]
never mind
23:56:14 [Dashiva]
Yes, there is a chance of us using up all the internet
23:56:20 [Dashiva]
But we'll just have to live with it
23:56:47 [chaals]
fair enough.
23:58:22 [Philip]
I think you mean we'll just have to live without it