section) does it say that it is live? 12:03:52 <anne> IH: yes, different section though; should say that, if it doesn't, e-mail 12:04:01 <anne> IH: <base> section has issues 12:04:13 <anne> JS: specification doesn't define what we do? 12:04:20 <anne> IH: it says what IE7 changed to do 12:05:58 <darobin> darobin has joined #html-wg 12:06:00 <anne> IH: I did a study on this; didn't matter much; vast majority of the pages were spam pages or autogenerated index pages 12:06:24 <anne> JS: I'd love to remove the code 12:07:12 <anne> [<link> section marked as "last call"] 12:09:22 <anne> [<style> section] 12:09:36 <anne> HS: I thought scoped was controversial, dhyatt commented on it 12:09:46 <anne> HS: I think if dhyatt is not ok with it it counts as controversial 12:11:12 <anne> DB: there was discussion in the CSSWG whether it should be matched against the root of the whole tree or the subtree 12:11:25 <anne> LH: I think it should be the whole tree, like in Selectors API 12:11:32 <anne> JS: perf implications? 12:11:39 <anne> [silence] 12:12:24 <anne> [some stuff about the CSSOM and its editor] 12:12:52 <anne> IH: <eventsource> is probably "last call" because we get implementations 12:13:01 <anne> IH: <script> probably not because <script async> is new 12:13:56 <CWilso> agenda? 12:14:21 <anne> JS: we're implementing <eventsource>, not sure what the status is 12:14:21 <CWilso> zakim, close agendum 8 12:14:21 <Zakim> agendum 8, 10:30-11:00: Coffee break, closed 12:14:23 <Zakim> I see 9 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 12:14:24 <Zakim> 7. 9:15-10:30: Progress review/evaluation of stability of sections of HTML5 spec [from CWilso] 12:14:30 <CWilso> zakim, close agendum 9 12:14:30 <Zakim> agendum 9, 11:00-11:45 Introduction to writing test cases, closed 12:14:31 <Zakim> I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 12:14:32 <Zakim> 7. 9:15-10:30: Progress review/evaluation of stability of sections of HTML5 spec [from CWilso] 12:14:42 <CWilso> zakim, close agendum 12 12:14:42 <Zakim> agendum 12, 11:45-12:30 Implicit accessibility roles (concurrent discussion), closed 12:14:45 <Zakim> I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 12:14:46 <Zakim> 7. 9:15-10:30: Progress review/evaluation of stability of sections of HTML5 spec [from CWilso] 12:14:52 <CWilso> zakim, close agendum 13 12:14:52 <Zakim> agendum 13, 12:30-14:00: Lunch break, closed 12:14:52 <tlr> tlr has joined #html-wg 12:14:53 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 12:14:54 <Zakim> 7. 9:15-10:30: Progress review/evaluation of stability of sections of HTML5 spec [from CWilso] 12:14:58 <CWilso> agenda? 12:15:21 <CWilso> zakim, close agendum 19 12:15:22 <Zakim> agendum 19, 11:45-12:30 authoring guide, closed 12:15:23 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 12:15:24 <Zakim> 7. 9:15-10:30: Progress review/evaluation of stability of sections of HTML5 spec [from CWilso] 12:15:33 <CWilso> zakim, close agendum 15 12:15:33 <Zakim> agendum 15, 14:45-15:30: wrap up test case/tutorial discussion, closed 12:15:34 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 12:15:35 <Zakim> 7. 9:15-10:30: Progress review/evaluation of stability of sections of HTML5 spec [from CWilso] 12:16:34 <anne> HS: are we considering header level implementation part of the <section> section? 12:16:45 <anne> IH, MS: different section, so no 12:20:08 <anne> AvK: headings and sections is not really desirable to implement because styling is not addressed 12:20:31 <anne> DB: CSS also needs changes for CSS counters and user agent style sheets will need changes for sizes 12:20:41 <anne> HS: has the CSS WG looked into that? 12:20:50 <anne> DB: no, but I have sort of a mental action item to look into that 12:21:07 <anne> LH: it would be nice if the CSS WG defined Selectors for this so you can easily select all second level headings 12:21:27 <anne> s/Selectors/selectors/ 12:25:22 <anne> IH: for the <q> section we need to figure out quoting, so "working draft" 12:25:53 <anne> JS: so is that a break from HTML4? 12:25:56 <anne> IH: yes 12:26:47 <anne> IH: we're screwed either way 12:27:43 <jun> jun has joined #html-wg 12:27:48 <anne> DB: Firefox does it but gets complaints from different locales because people do not agree on quotation rules 12:28:08 <anne> CW: sigh, we did it the HTML4 way in IE8 12:28:09 <gsnedders> q:lang(en)::before { content: '"'; } — anyone agree with that? :P 12:28:27 <myakura> Lach, ::before is css3, so probably not 12:28:38 <myakura> s/Lach/Lachy/ 12:29:12 <anne> [missed bits] 12:29:21 <anne> DB: so maybe we should drop support for it before IE8 does 12:29:43 <karl> gsnedders: you meant q:lang(en)::before { content: '“'; } 12:29:58 <anne> HS: one option would be to obsolete quote and require ugly quotation marks in the rendering section 12:30:20 <karl> s/gsnedders:/gsnedders,/ 12:30:37 <anne> DB: people don't agree what the quotation rules for English are at the third nested level 12:30:37 <gsnedders> karl: I did deliberately do " :) 12:30:44 <ht> ht has joined #html-wg 12:30:53 <karl> s/karl:/karl,/ 12:31:01 <anne> DB: the Bible has five levels deep and is widely translated, and different locales disagree on a lot of things 12:31:19 <anne> HS: I would like to add that the Bible is a bad use case for tree based markup as it has overlapping ranges 12:31:32 <gsnedders> karl, doesn't it make no difference for non-scribes? 12:31:58 <anne> s/on a lot of things/on the quotation rules/ 12:32:48 <hsivonen> gsnedders, a verse can span a paragraph break, IIRC 12:33:02 <gsnedders> hsivonen, Yeah. Often does. 12:33:04 <dbaron> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2006May/0133.html for 5-nesting of quotes 12:33:05 <pimpbot> Title: Re: Deep nesting of quotes from Simon Montagu on 2006-05-16 (www-style@w3.org from May 2006) (at lists.w3.org) 12:33:28 <DanC_lap> DanC_lap has joined #html-wg 12:33:56 <anne> [text-level semantics] 12:34:09 <anne> IH: outstanding feedback on all of them 12:34:30 <anne> MS: what about footnotes 12:34:42 <anne> IH: they are conventions that people should use for footnotes 12:35:15 <gsnedders> Example of overlapping range: <http://www.ibs.org/bible/verse/index.php?q=Mark+14:64> 12:35:18 <pimpbot> Title: Mark 14:64 :: Bible Search (at www.ibs.org) 12:37:27 <gsnedders> Lachy: The verse cannot be marked up as a single element because it continues beyond the paragraph break 12:37:30 <anne> IH: the <legend> element is reused and it's not clear whether that is actually possible due to legacy 12:37:34 <hsivonen> Lachy, consider both paras and verses as containers 12:37:42 <anne> JS: was this fixed in Firefox 3? 12:37:49 <anne> IH: I think it was one of the things it wasn't 12:38:10 <anne> IH: in Mozilla <legend> implies a <fieldset> 12:38:22 <anne> IH: other browsers just drop it on the ground 12:38:38 <anne> IH: nobody relies on this one way or another 12:38:55 <Lachy> hsivonen, ok, it makes sense if I look at it in context, and see how the passage numbers are used 12:39:03 <anne> IH: I would like not to add yet another way to mark up a heading 12:39:38 <anne> HS: I think the legacy parsing will scare away authors so I would prefer a new name 12:40:03 <anne> IH: it will hamper transition, but delaying it another couple of years is fine with me given the cost it would add to the language 12:40:43 <anne> [<img> section] 12:40:54 <anne> IH: the red box regarding longdesc is a lie, I have considered that feedback 12:41:11 <anne> DB: what about image maps? 12:41:15 <anne> IH: separate section 12:41:45 <AndrewR> AndrewR has joined #html-wg 12:43:50 <anne> [sandboxing] 12:44:08 <anne> HS: does it work for e.g. chrome to have a separate process for the nested browsing context 12:44:20 <anne> IH: that has been taken into consideration 12:45:10 <JonathanJ> JonathanJ has joined #html-wg 12:46:44 <anne> [object and embed] 12:46:58 <anne> [how classid maps to a plugin per platform etc.] 12:50:13 <anne> http://www.bluishcoder.co.nz/2008/10/html-5-video-element-examples.html 12:50:14 <pimpbot> Title: Bluish Coder: HTML 5 Video Element Examples (at www.bluishcoder.co.nz) 12:50:40 <hsivonen> http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/video-selection/ 12:50:41 <pimpbot> Title: Index of /test/moz/video-selection (at hsivonen.iki.fi) 12:53:41 <anne> [going through the media element section] 12:53:56 <anne> JS: smaug was saying loadend was not relevant 12:54:06 <anne> IH: we have load, error and abort, so loadend does make sense 12:55:57 <anne> CW: what "Implemented and widely deployed" mean beyond "last call" 12:55:59 <anne> IH: yeah 12:59:26 <Norbert> Norbert has joined #html-wg 13:00:04 <sicking> sicking has joined #html-wg 13:00:26 <anne> [discussion whether there should be annotations for sections that could be moved out of the spec] 13:00:46 <anne> IH: it's typically not a concrete section, but rather several sections that have to be taken out together 13:02:10 <anne> HS: for the <map> element, should we annotate it with browser support regarding HTML and XML 13:02:35 <anne> MS: we can't do that level of detail 13:06:36 <Lachy> scribenick: Lachy 13:06:42 <Lachy> scribe: Lachlan Hunt 13:07:32 <Lachy> MS: We could probably skip the forms section today 13:07:47 <Lachy> ... also Tables 13:08:10 <Lachy> IH: Forms has a lot of feedback pending. 13:08:22 <Lachy> ... Most feedback on tables is about headers 13:09:52 <oshani> oshani has joined #html-wg 13:10:19 <raphael> raphael has joined #html-wg 13:10:43 <Lachy> [added a few annotations to the forms and table sections] 13:11:29 <Lachy> IH: I'm hoping we'll get at least one implemented working on the datagrid section and provide feedback. 13:11:37 <Lachy> ... No-one has said it's bad 13:11:58 <Lachy> MS: Is the name of the <bb> element stable? 13:12:01 <Lachy> IH: No 13:12:10 <anne> heh, the interface name is actually BrowserButton 13:12:30 <Lachy> ... It was added in response to Apple's feedback, wanting to provide an in page way of triggering application functionality 13:13:04 <MoZ> MoZ has joined #html-wg 13:13:32 <Lachy> JS: Why not use a JS API? 13:13:43 <Lachy> IH: It's to prevent annoying abuses that are possible with JS 13:13:56 <Lachy> CW: I'm not sure this is better than an API though 13:17:30 <Lachy> HS: How much of the rendering section will be different from the CSS appendix? 13:17:48 <Lachy> IH: Rendering is a misnomer. It contains more than just basic styles 13:18:17 <Lachy> ... There's 2 big issues: The obsolete APIs and elements, and how to map that to CSS 13:18:55 <plinss_> plinss_ has joined #html-wg 13:19:29 <Lachy> HS: My spec scraper works better when each element is defined in only one place 13:19:55 <Lachy> IH: [points out other problems that still don't solve Henri's issues] 13:20:04 <Hixie> dbaron, wfm in ff trunk 13:22:20 <smedero> Philip, did you ever file this bug properly with the IE folks? http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20081008#l-563 13:22:23 <pimpbot> Title: IRC logs: freenode / #whatwg / 20081008 (at krijnhoetmer.nl) 13:23:19 <ed> ed has joined #html-wg 13:23:59 <Philip> smedero, no - I started trying to write some proper tests for all the localStorage stuff rather than reporting bugs randomly, but then I kind of got bored/lazy/distracted/busy and didn't get anywhere 13:24:38 <Philip> (Firefox had strange bugs with funny characters in globalStorage too) 13:25:00 <SallyC> SallyC has joined #html-wg 13:25:30 <smedero> ahh, ok. I can help out a bit if you want to (and it makes sense to) split up that work. 13:26:36 <CWilso> action: ChrisWilson to come up with a 16x16 image icon for IE for implementation chart 13:26:36 <trackbot> Created ACTION-83 - Come up with a 16x16 image icon for IE for implementation chart [on Chris Wilson - due 2008-10-31]. 13:28:12 <Philip> smedero, I started doing something based on my canvas test framework with all the canvas-specific bits ripped out, with the intention of adding storage-specific bits (like the ability to run each test on a separate domain to get independent storage areas), so I probably should try to finish that stuff, and then the actual tests should be fairly straightforward to write :-) 13:35:41 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, please make minutes 13:35:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith 13:35:42 <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG -- 24 Oct 2008 (at www.w3.org) 13:36:03 <MikeSmith> [afternoon break until 4pm CET] 14:02:15 <plinss_> plinss_ has joined #html-wg 14:02:40 <aroben> aroben has joined #html-wg 14:08:16 <DanC_lap> DanC_lap has joined #html-wg 14:08:32 <Philip> CWilso, you could print out some SVG people from http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Human.svg 14:08:33 <pimpbot> Title: Image:Human.svg - Wikimedia Commons (at commons.wikimedia.org) 14:10:08 <plinss_> plinss_ has joined #html-wg 14:10:47 <MikeSmith> MikeSmith has joined #html-wg 14:11:02 <hsivonen> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jul/0250.html 14:11:03 <pimpbot> Title: Re: SVG in HTML proposal from Henri Sivonen on 2008-07-21 (public-html@w3.org from July 2008) (at lists.w3.org) 14:11:25 <MikeSmith> Topic: SVG in text/html 14:11:31 <MikeSmith> scribenick: MikeSmith 14:11:54 <MikeSmith> CWilso: so... SVG in text/html 14:12:05 <olivier> olivier has joined #html-wg 14:12:31 <Hixie> -_- 14:12:35 <sicking> ack wft 14:12:36 <CWilso> ack wfm 14:12:36 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #html-wg 14:12:46 <shepazu> http://dev.w3.org/SVG/proposals/svg-html/svg-html-proposal.html 14:12:47 <pimpbot> Title: SVG and HTML (at dev.w3.org) 14:12:55 <MikeSmith> q? 14:12:56 <shepazu> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008Aug/0069.html 14:12:57 <pimpbot> Title: Feedback on SVGWG's SVG-in-text/html proposal from Ian Hickson on 2008-08-28 (www-svg@w3.org from August 2008) (at lists.w3.org) 14:13:42 <MoZ> MoZ has joined #html-wg 14:14:18 <MikeSmith> shepazu: we did incorporate some feedback we got on our proposal 14:14:38 <MikeSmith> ... nothing is set in stone, we can make further refinements to the proposal 14:15:16 <MikeSmith> ChrisL: I assume it's a goal that developers should not have to rewrite scripts and such 14:15:17 <SallyC> SallyC has left #html-wg 14:15:32 <chaals> chaals has joined #html-wg 14:15:40 <MikeSmith> aroben: yeah, issue is just about the syntax 14:15:52 <aroben> MikeSmith: hm? 14:16:25 <MikeSmith> CWilso: all comes down to the syntax 14:16:42 <Lachy> Lachy has joined #html-wg 14:16:45 <CWilso> s/CWilso/Shepazu 14:16:48 <MikeSmith> shepazu: we have disagreements about the syntax, but is there anything else? 14:17:51 <hsivonen> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jul/0250.html 14:17:52 <pimpbot> Title: Re: SVG in HTML proposal from Henri Sivonen on 2008-07-21 (public-html@w3.org from July 2008) (at lists.w3.org) 14:17:53 <MikeSmith> hsivonen: in July, I sent a message about the proposal but did not get a reply... 14:18:24 <MikeSmith> shepazu: we made some changes because of comments you, hsivonen, made 14:18:44 <Lachy> Lachy has joined #html-wg 14:18:45 <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I was objecting to the whole premise of how the integration would be done [in your proposal] 14:18:53 <MikeSmith> ... about which tokenizer is used 14:19:06 <MikeSmith> ... I've implemented the proposal that was commented out 14:19:23 <MikeSmith> ... I estimated what work it would take to implement it in Gecko and in Java SE 14:19:55 <MikeSmith> ... and my assessment is that it's much easier in both cases to implement the commented-out proposal [from Hixie] 14:20:19 <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I sent comments about why the SVG WG is not implementable 14:20:36 <MikeSmith> ... I fundamentally disagree with having an XML parser inside the HTML parser 14:20:41 <Hixie> q+ 14:20:57 <chaals> q+ 14:21:13 <MikeSmith> ChrisL: I disagree. You've not shown that it's massively inefficient. 14:21:18 <r12a> r12a has joined #html-wg 14:21:22 <ed> q+ 14:21:24 <CWilso> ack Hixie 14:21:26 <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I don't think I need to implement it [in order to prove it] 14:21:43 <MikeSmith> Hixie: a question that came out is a question of goals 14:21:44 <shepazu> shepazu has joined #html-wg 14:22:01 <ChrisL> q? 14:22:05 <Hixie> Is it a goal that anything that is functional in text/html be functional when copied and pasted into image/svg+xml 14:22:13 <chaals> q+ to talk about implementation and propose an answer to hixie 14:22:14 <MikeSmith> shepazu: Hixe, do you mean anything? 14:22:19 <MikeSmith> Hixie: anything *SVG* 14:22:29 <MikeSmith> ChrisL: to the extent possible 14:22:30 <hsivonen> q+ 14:22:39 <Hixie> q+ 14:22:55 <MikeSmith> ChrisL: hsivonen makes a good point... e.g., Illustrator puts entities in 14:23:07 <chaals> ack me 14:23:07 <Zakim> chaals, you wanted to talk about implementation and propose an answer to hixie 14:23:07 <CWilso> ack chaals 14:23:08 <MikeSmith> ChrisL: so losing that would be fine 14:23:23 <MikeSmith> chaals: we have not thoroughly implemented either system ... 14:23:24 <sicking> q+ 14:23:31 <ChrisL> but i want most SVG to be usable. Some bits with entities may need modification, thats fine 14:23:46 <shepazu> q+ 14:24:19 <MikeSmith> ... but in our assessment, in practical terms, the two proposals will work [equally well] -- after looking at the costs .. based on a "desk check" 14:25:00 <MikeSmith> chaals: I think it is a goal that where it is feasible, you should be able to take SVG content out of text/html content, and stick it into, e.g., and editor 14:25:19 <darobin> q+ to reflect on tools 14:25:36 <MikeSmith> ... we don't want to break the use case of cut-and-paste in that scenario 14:25:36 <CWilso> ack ed 14:26:19 <MikeSmith> ed: to me it's not a goal to allow something to be very different from the syntax we have now 14:26:27 <CWilso> ack hs 14:26:33 <MikeSmith> ... important to stay as close as possible to what is out there already 14:27:00 <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I agree about the importance of the copy-and-paste from browser into editor 14:27:12 <billmason> billmason has joined #html-wg 14:27:38 <MikeSmith> ... but following the line of thought, it leads to breaking the fundamental permissive nature of text/html (the "host" format) 14:28:05 <CWilso> q? 14:28:27 <MikeSmith> hsivonen: you can get around this without making fundamental changes to HTML parsing ... 14:30:04 <MikeSmith> ... some browsers allows you to [output a well-formed serialized output of the DOM] 14:30:19 <hsivonen> q+ 14:31:07 <MikeSmith> shepazu: we can't count on that functionality being available always, and don't want to spec it as a requirement 14:31:39 <MikeSmith> shepazu: problem case is of some of this funky [not-well-formed] SVG getting propogated 14:31:45 <karl> There is a *virtuous* circle to keep good markup or even improve it in an ecosystem. 14:31:46 <MikeSmith> ... somebody thinks it should work, but it won't 14:32:21 <CWilso> ack Hixie 14:32:36 <MikeSmith> shepazu: so your scenario [serialized DOM output] does not solve the problem 14:32:52 <MikeSmith> Hixie: so we need to look as [what the problem is that we want to solve] 14:33:01 <MoZ> MoZ has joined #html-wg 14:33:41 <MikeSmith> ... if we think that it's a goal that anything that is functional in HTML should always be functional when pasted into XML, then the SVGWG does not satisfy that requirement 14:33:54 <MikeSmith> shepazu: I think you do not require attribute quoting? 14:33:58 <MikeSmith> Hixie: correct 14:34:16 <MikeSmith> Hixie: another example is omitting the SVG end tag 14:34:19 <CWilso> ack sicking 14:34:30 <Hixie> q+ 14:34:49 <MikeSmith> sicking: I think we [may have] incompatible goals 14:35:15 <MikeSmith> ChrisL: being able to draw something in a drawing tool and paste it into an HTML document, yeah, of course that should work 14:35:29 <gsnedders> q? 14:35:57 <MikeSmith> sicking: other goals are that the way that HTML authoring is done should also be OK for SVG 14:36:33 <MikeSmith> ... but that is an incompatible goal ... string concatenation... people generating invalid markup ... writing HTML docs in Notepad, et.c 14:36:47 <CWilso> ack shepazu 14:36:54 <MikeSmith> ChrisL: people do already generate SVG in those ways [using PHP, etc.] 14:37:06 <MikeSmith> sicking: we need goals 14:37:16 <CWilso> q+ to suggest that we walk through the goals and straw-poll each 14:37:37 <MikeSmith> sicking: if we talk about requirements first, then we can work together toward a solution 14:37:51 <ChrisL> q? 14:37:53 <CWilso> ack danrobin 14:37:57 <CWilso> ack darobin 14:37:57 <Zakim> darobin, you wanted to reflect on tools 14:38:03 <MikeSmith> darobin: about the goals thing ... 14:38:19 <MikeSmith> ... everyone agrees that we want to have SVG in HTML 14:38:38 <MikeSmith> ... the editor vendors will make it happen ... 14:39:04 <MikeSmith> ... it will be cheap to add an HTML5 parser to an editing application 14:39:29 <MikeSmith> ... currently, SVG is being produced by [people who are more XML-aware] 14:39:37 <CWilso> ack hs 14:40:02 <MikeSmith> ... but once SVG gets very widely used, [the "funky" instances of it] will increase, and we will have to deal with them 14:40:51 <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I think our goal should be that browsers will have the UI [for outputting a serialized DOM] 14:41:13 <CWilso> q? 14:42:34 <MikeSmith> hsivonen: browsers already have a different parser for text/html and XML, so... 14:42:41 <CWilso> ack hixie 14:42:44 <anne> hsivonen, I think the point from Chris Lilley is that nobody has implemented the proposal from the SVG WG yet so in theory it is unclear which one is simpler; though you did point out you thought it was sort of "doomed" the way it is currently written 14:42:51 <MikeSmith> ... suggesting that they wouldn't do so seems weird because they are already doing it 14:43:31 <Lachy> Lachy has joined #html-wg 14:43:59 <MikeSmith> Hixie: I think it is possible to avoid allowing "tag soup" parsing support for SVG ... 14:44:00 <shepazu> q+ 14:44:21 <MikeSmith> ... but we don't have agreement about that being a reasonable goal 14:44:26 <CWilso> ack ch 14:44:26 <Zakim> chaals, you wanted to suggest that we drop the hand-raising protocol and force people to simply remember their rebuttals and wait their turn and to suggest that we drop the 14:44:29 <Lachy> Just in regards to the UI suggestion from Henri, I just want to point out that there are several alternatives besides providing a way to get the DOM source, such as simply using "Save Image As..." to export a well-formed, re-serialised copy of the image to an SVG file. 14:44:29 <Zakim> ... hand-raising protocol and force people to simply remember their rebuttals and wait their turn (and some other stuff about hand-coding) 14:44:54 <MikeSmith> chaals: our experience is that by-and-large, the quality of SVG has improved over time ... 14:45:08 <MikeSmith> ... due to it being a goal that we enforce quality requirements 14:45:23 <MikeSmith> ... majority case is drawing tools, yeah ... 14:45:37 <MikeSmith> ... but they are also generating using PHP, whatever ... 14:46:04 <MikeSmith> ... and they do go back and fix their code [if it turns out it's not producing well-formed SVG] 14:46:19 <MikeSmith> ... we do see it as a goal to keep SVG parsing strict ... 14:46:43 <MikeSmith> ... tools for SVG have remained high-quality ... 14:47:05 <MikeSmith> ... we don't see it as a goal to make the [SVG content] crappier than it already is ... 14:47:20 <MikeSmith> chaals: an area where that's important is mobile 14:47:33 <MikeSmith> ... whilst that world is also changing ... 14:47:36 <sicking> q+ 14:47:38 <hsivonen> q+ to talk about mobile 14:47:43 <MikeSmith> ... proper browsers being deployed ... 14:48:16 <CWilso> ack mew 14:48:18 <MikeSmith> ... but to blow that off -- to allow [become more tolerant of] crappy SVG code 14:48:22 <CWilso> ack me 14:48:22 <Zakim> CWilso, you wanted to suggest that we walk through the goals and straw-poll each 14:48:27 <MikeSmith> ... [we don't want to do that] 14:48:43 <MikeSmith> CWilso: so can we look at the set of goals? 14:48:43 <ChrisL> q? 14:48:48 <ChrisL> q+ 14:48:56 <MikeSmith> [we have only 10 minutes left] 14:49:02 <Hixie> goals: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008Aug/0069.html 14:49:03 <pimpbot> Title: Feedback on SVGWG's SVG-in-text/html proposal from Ian Hickson on 2008-08-28 (www-svg@w3.org from August 2008) (at lists.w3.org) 14:49:16 <pfps> pfps has joined #html-wg 14:50:14 <CWilso> ack sicking 14:50:32 <MikeSmith> sicking: concerned about having a requirement about strict parsing ... 14:50:41 <Hixie> darobin: eh, i start all mine by saying "i, er, i think, there is, hm, if we, hm, ..." ;-) 14:50:49 <shepazu> me that's because I usually go on for half an hour :) 14:51:44 <MikeSmith> ... is [the problem of unstable equilibrium which we have learned] that there is a risk it will just not happen that way in the long run 14:52:16 <MikeSmith> ChrisL: is it a goal to stop people from putting in well-formed content? 14:52:27 <CWilso> * It should be possible to drop an SVG file from a graphic editor into an 14:52:27 <CWilso> HTML5 document sent as text/html and usually have it validate and work. 14:53:15 <CWilso> * The DOM aspect of this should be very similar to using SVG in XHTML, so 14:53:15 <CWilso> that there is no work required beyond parser changes for text/html. 14:53:16 <MikeSmith> [agreement within rough consensus?] 14:53:23 <ChrisL> (whether it validates or not is irrelevant to me, but it should render as expected) 14:53:46 <CWilso> * The DOM aspect of this should be very similar to using SVG in XHTML, so 14:53:46 <ChrisL> I'm glad that penalising WF is not a goal 14:53:46 <CWilso> that there is no work required beyond parser changes for text/html. 14:54:10 <MikeSmith> [agreement from all] 14:54:15 <CWilso> * Changes to the parser should be relatively small and localised. For 14:54:15 <CWilso> example, it should double the number of states in the tokeniser, or add 14:54:15 <CWilso> half a dozen tree construction insertion modes. 14:54:27 <CWilso> s/double/not double 14:54:54 <CWilso> * The parsing model should be very light-weight. It shouldn't require, 14:54:54 <CWilso> for example, extra buffering, or parsing text twice. 14:55:02 <dbaron> s/double/not double/ 14:55:58 <r12a> r12a has joined #html-wg 14:55:59 <MikeSmith> shepazu: I don't strongly oppose this goal. 14:56:10 <r12a> s/not not double/not double/ 14:56:33 <MikeSmith> chaals: the underlying goal is that the processing is reasonably efficient 14:56:50 <MikeSmith> ... the stated goal has more implementation detail in it than needed 14:57:06 <MikeSmith> [no broad consensus on this goal] 14:57:09 <CWilso> * The markup should be as easy to edit by hand as regular HTML, modulo 14:57:09 <CWilso> complications due to the vocabulary itself. 14:57:21 <MikeSmith> ChrisL: it over-constrains implementations 14:58:13 <MikeSmith> CWilso: "as small as an elephant" 14:58:13 <hsivonen> I agree with the goal 14:58:29 <MikeSmith> [broad consensus] 14:58:30 <CWilso> * The syntax shouldn't introduce two different syntaxes for HTML 14:58:30 <CWilso> elements in text/html. For example, it should be possible to take a big 14:58:30 <CWilso> blob of existing HTML, and wrap it in a <foreignObject> and have it 14:58:30 <CWilso> just work, without having to fix up missing end tags or namespace 14:58:30 <CWilso> declarations or whatever. 14:59:23 <MikeSmith> [agreement] 14:59:24 <CWilso> * If possible, the same mechanism should work for both MathML and SVG, 14:59:25 <CWilso> and it should make it relatively easy to introduce other vocabularies 14:59:25 <CWilso> in future, at least for vocabularies designed with this mechanism in 14:59:25 <CWilso> mind. 14:59:54 <MikeSmith> ChrisL: problematic 15:00:16 <fsasaki> fsasaki has joined #html-wg 15:00:53 <CWilso> * Markup seen on real pages today, and errors of a similar vain, 15:00:53 <CWilso> shouldn't result in dramatically different renderings in browsers that 15:00:53 <CWilso> support this feature. 15:01:13 <CWilso> s/vain/vein/ 15:01:35 <MikeSmith> Hixie: this is the "don't break legacy pages" requirement 15:01:54 <MikeSmith> ed: the question is "At what cost?" 15:02:50 <ChrisL> depends on which broken pages you want to preserve. 15:03:10 <MikeSmith> shepazu: some of your pages that you [Hixie] gave as examples are [totally broken] 15:03:46 <pfps> pfps has left #html-wg 15:04:11 <MikeSmith> [discussion about whether it's feasible to do educate/evangelize to get people to fix their broken content 15:05:01 <MikeSmith> Hixie: this a the single most important requirement from the POV of the Chrome team 15:05:44 <MikeSmith> ChrisL: SVG pages which currently work -- which produce some useful output -- should continue working 15:05:50 <Hixie> http://puysl.com/view.htm 15:05:51 <pimpbot> Title: New Page 1 (at puysl.com) 15:05:53 <Hixie> ^ that one 15:06:48 <MikeSmith> hsivonen: [describes a cargo-cult copy-and-paste scenario 15:07:27 <CWilso> We must not require users to declare namespace prefixes correctly. 15:07:29 <MikeSmith> sicking: I want to find out how common [the case is that we currently are discussing] 15:07:48 <MikeSmith> ChrisL: I would like this clarified. 15:08:24 <Lachy> q+ 15:08:29 <Lachy> q- 15:08:46 <Lachy> q+ 15:09:04 <MikeSmith> CWilso: so you can have an svg element and all its children without the namespace 15:09:20 <CWilso> * If possible, we shouldn't expose users to namespace syntax at all, 15:09:20 <CWilso> though the DOM still needs to expose the namespaces. 15:09:21 <MikeSmith> ... that should be allowed ... 15:09:35 <MikeSmith> ChrisL: but it should not disallow the namespaces 15:10:32 <MikeSmith> hsivonen: one issue is, should it render as SVG if you have a namespace, but it's the wrong namespace? 15:10:36 <CWilso> Hixie: we should definitely allow the xmlns case. 15:10:43 <Lachy> ack Lachy 15:11:54 <MikeSmith> sicking: seems like the third issue [wrong namespace] is the only one we don't have agreement on 15:12:38 <aaronlev_> aaronlev_ has joined #html-wg 15:12:53 <MikeSmith> sicking: do we want it to be possible to use an off-the-shelf XML parser? 15:14:12 <MikeSmith> sicking: are we OK to restricting ourselves to non-off-the-shelf XML parsers? 15:14:45 <MikeSmith> hsivonen: the problem is, that presupposes part of the solution? 15:15:32 <MikeSmith> sicking: if I as an implementor am not OK with writing my own XML parser, than that excludes [some implementors] 15:15:41 <CWilso> q? 15:15:42 <smedero> q? 15:15:51 <MikeSmith> Hixie: writing your own XML parser is not a small and localized change 15:17:09 <MikeSmith> CWilso: I think we are narrowing down to get an idea of where the disagreements about goals are. 15:17:22 <shepazu> * It is not a goal that any valid SVG file must be embeddable in 15:17:22 <shepazu> text/html. (Only the syntax that is actually widely used need be 15:17:22 <shepazu> supported.) 15:17:50 <MikeSmith> shepazu: this is not talking about whitelisting? 15:18:20 <MikeSmith> Hixie: this is about SVG that uses namespace prefixes or that use an DTD internal subset 15:18:50 <MikeSmith> ChrisL: only place I see people using prefixes in SVG is in compound documents 15:19:32 <r12a> r12a has joined #html-wg 15:19:34 <MikeSmith> shepazu: OK, I don't think this is controversial 15:20:26 <MikeSmith> [strong consensus that this is a non-goal] 15:20:30 <shepazu> * It is not a goal that anything that is valid text/html be valid 15:20:31 <shepazu> image/svg+xml. In particular, whether to use case-sensitive or case- 15:20:31 <shepazu> insensitive tag and attribute names at the syntax level should be 15:20:31 <shepazu> driven from implementation performance choices, not conformance. 15:20:48 <MikeSmith> shepazu: case sensitivity... 15:20:57 <MikeSmith> ... related to error-correction 15:21:05 <Hixie> q+ 15:21:16 <CWilso> ack sh 15:21:41 <MikeSmith> ChrisL: if you're allowed to doing the stuff that the SVG spec says, or corrects it to conform to the SVG spec, then fine 15:21:50 <CWilso> ack hs 15:21:50 <Zakim> hsivonen, you wanted to talk about mobile 15:22:04 <CWilso> ack Ch 15:22:06 <MikeSmith> hsivonen: the performance issue here is very important 15:22:58 <MikeSmith> anne: we've had no implementations of the SVGWG proposal, [so we don't have any data] 15:23:41 <karl> the debate on performance should be really put aside before having real data on the table for the two options 15:23:53 <MikeSmith> shepazu: how about if the spec says it's strongly recommended or "SHOULD" that authors should try to [follow XML well-formedness constraints] 15:24:02 <CWilso> ack hixie 15:24:13 <sicking> q+ 15:24:43 <CWilso> ack s 15:25:36 <hsivonen> q+ 15:25:56 <MikeSmith> sicking: requiring the SVG parts to be totally XML-compliant is fine... but authors are going to do whatever ends up working in browsers 15:27:03 <MikeSmith> [discussion about the fact that quotes are in fact needed even in some cases in text/html] 15:27:18 <MikeSmith> ChrisL: "quotes are not required except when they are" 15:28:16 <smedero> q? 15:28:16 <sicking> q? 15:28:18 <MikeSmith> q? 15:28:36 <Hixie> q? 15:28:38 <CWilso> ack h 15:29:47 <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I'm not fine with requiring that a parser used for a validator be different from the parser used by validators. 15:29:52 <karl> q+ 15:30:05 <MikeSmith> s/used by validators/used by browsers/ 15:30:22 <MikeSmith> Murray: are there levels of conformance? 15:30:59 <MikeSmith> karl: people will always choose the more liberal choice 15:31:07 <MikeSmith> CWilso: they will choose random levels 15:31:27 <MikeSmith> q? 15:31:30 <MikeSmith> ack karl 15:31:37 <CWilso> q+ to say go home. Get out. 15:31:56 <MikeSmith> sicking: majority of people test it in a browser, if it works, OK 15:32:08 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, please make minutes 15:32:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith 15:32:10 <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG -- 24 Oct 2008 (at www.w3.org) 15:32:11 <sicking> last post! 15:32:19 <gsnedders> last + 1 post! 15:32:30 <anne> o_O 15:34:51 <MikeSmith> [we wrap up in the company of members of the SVG WG] 15:39:10 <dom> dom has left #html-wg 15:40:28 <plinss_> plinss_ has left #html-wg 15:41:06 <anne> anne has left #html-wg 15:42:12 <jdaggett> jdaggett has joined #html-wg 15:42:40 <marcos> marcos has joined #html-wg 16:21:29 <adele> adele has joined #html-wg 16:23:40 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, please make minutes 16:23:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith 16:23:41 <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG -- 24 Oct 2008 (at www.w3.org) 17:16:56 <mjs> mjs has joined #html-wg 17:53:07 <adele> adele has joined #html-wg 17:56:27 <adele> adele has left #html-wg 19:52:38 <oshani> oshani has joined #html-wg 20:03:28 <dbaron> dbaron has joined #html-wg 20:24:04 <DanC_lap> DanC_lap has joined #html-wg 20:35:58 <DanC_> DanC_ has joined #html-wg 20:55:14 <Lachy> Lachy has joined #html-wg 20:57:55 <bijan> bijan has joined #html-wg 21:41:07 <maddiin> maddiin has joined #html-wg 22:33:33 <mjs_> mjs_ has joined #html-wg 22:50:14 <Julian> Julian has joined #html-wg 23:23:04 <mjs> mjs has joined #html-wg 23:30:33 <chaals> chaals has joined #html-wg 23:54:29 <Philip> I haven't had any reason to disconnect my IRC client for the past 80 days 23:55:44 <chaals> save the planet! Stop using so many bytes. And PLEASE, Think of the children... 23:55:51 <chaals> oh, wait. 23:55:53 <chaals> never mind 23:56:14 <Dashiva> Yes, there is a chance of us using up all the internet 23:56:20 <Dashiva> But we'll just have to live with it 23:56:47 <chaals> fair enough. 23:58:22 <Philip> I think you mean we'll just have to live without it

00:21:26 oshani has joined #html-wg 02:02:37 gavin_ has joined #html-wg 02:08:21 gavin_ has joined #html-wg 02:26:53 mjs has joined #html-wg 04:20:02 gavin_ has joined #html-wg 04:24:04 arun has joined #html-wg 04:49:40 MikeSmith has joined #html-wg 04:51:21 MikeSmith has joined #html-wg 05:10:20 sryo has joined #html-wg 05:37:22 aaronlev_ has joined #html-wg 06:15:08 zcorpan has joined #html-wg 06:50:59 MoZ has joined #html-wg 06:54:48 Lachy has joined #html-wg 06:55:46 Lachy has joined #html-wg 06:56:11 raphael has joined #html-wg 07:04:03 CWilso has joined #html-wg 07:04:13 smedero has joined #html-wg 07:06:32 timeless has joined #html-wg 07:09:22 timeless, (+33)4/92977000 (according to Sofitel's website) 07:09:37 3/j mw4d 07:09:38 SallyC has joined #html-wg 07:10:04 so some pages depend on < and > not being escaped in 07:10:14 timeless: try me for message, i'm in a meeting but i can pop out during the break with a message 07:10:22 zcorpan: how so? 07:10:33 how can it make a difference, i mean 07:10:35 SallyC has left #html-wg 07:10:42 Hixie: one page does a string replace on the innerHTML 07:10:50 oh lord 07:10:54 http://www.expedia.com/pub/agent.dll?qscr=cars&itid=&itdx=&itty=&&ploc=&plo2=&flag=&subm=1&tovr=-1294637292&styp=1&locn=Denver&loid=&astr=&acty=&astt=&azip=&date1=10%2F24%2F2008&time1=660&date2=10%2F25%2F2008&time2=660&loc2=&loi2=&rdus=10&cark=1&kind=1&optn=1&vend=&fspeceq=1&rdct=1 07:11:11 so they want <> not escaped in attribute values in innerHTML? 07:11:18 right 07:11:36 apparently firefox and webkit special case javascript urls 07:11:39 for innerHTML 07:12:14 agenda+ 9:00-9:15: Get settled 07:12:24 though i'd prefer if <> never was escaped like in ie 07:12:46 gsnedders has joined #html-wg 07:12:55 agenda+ 9:15-10:30: Progress review/evaluation of stability of sections of HTML5 spec 07:13:03 (except in webkit in javascript urls) 07:13:12 hsivonen: ping 07:13:18 agenda+ 10:30-11:00: Coffee break 07:13:25 Hixie: should i file a bug on the spec? 07:13:37 i've fixed it already 07:13:39 checkign it in now 07:13:44 cool, thanks 07:13:45 agenda? 07:14:06 agenda+ 11:00-11:45 Introduction to writing test cases 07:14:25 agenda+ 11:45-12:30 writing test cases 07:14:34 zcorpan has joined #html-wg 07:14:38 agenda+ 12:30-14:00: Lunch break 07:14:41 ed has joined #html-wg 07:14:58 zakim, close agenda item 11 07:14:58 I don't understand 'close agenda item 11', CWilso 07:15:08 Zakim, drop agendum 1 07:15:08 agendum 1, implicit accessibility roles, dropped 07:15:08 zakim, drop agenda item 11 07:15:09 I don't understand 'drop agenda item 11', CWilso 07:15:27 myakura has joined #html-wg 07:15:38 zakim, agenda? 07:15:38 I see 10 items remaining on the agenda: 07:15:39 2. authoring guide [from Lachy via DanC_lap] 07:15:40 3. authentication brainstorm 4:45pm Thu [JR/IH] 07:15:41 4. table headers attribute 4pm-4:45pm Thu [Joshue] 07:15:42 5. SVG in text/html 2pm Fri rm exec 7 [Doug] 07:15:44 6. 9:00-9:15: Get settled [from CWilso] 07:15:45 7. 9:15-10:30: Progress review/evaluation of stability of sections of HTML5 spec [from CWilso] 07:15:48 8. 10:30-11:00: Coffee break [from CWilso] 07:15:49 9. 11:00-11:45 Introduction to writing test cases [from CWilso] 07:15:50 10. 11:45-12:30 writing test cases [from CWilso] 07:15:50 Zakim, drop agendum 3 07:15:51 11. 12:30-14:00: Lunch break [from CWilso] 07:15:52 agendum 3, authentication brainstorm 4:45pm Thu [JR/IH], dropped 07:16:18 zakim, drop agendum 11 07:16:18 agendum 11, 12:30-14:00: Lunch break, dropped 07:16:26 Zakim, drop agendum 4 07:16:26 agendum 4, table headers attribute 4pm-4:45pm Thu [Joshue], dropped 07:16:53 Zakim, drop agendum 5 07:16:53 agendum 5, SVG in text/html 2pm Fri rm exec 7 [Doug], dropped 07:17:01 agenda+ 11:45-12:30 Implicit accessibility roles (concurrent discussion) 07:17:01 Julian_Reschke has joined #html-wg 07:17:18 agenda+ 12:30-14:00: Lunch break 07:17:46 agenda+ 14:00-14:45: Review open issues from tracker 07:18:21 agenda+ 14:45-15:30: wrap up test case/tutorial discussion 07:18:48 agenda+ 15:30-16:00: Afternoon break 07:19:14 agenda+ 16:00-17:00: SVG-in-HTML discussion 07:19:55 karl has joined #html-wg 07:19:57 agenda+ 17:00-17:30: Report back from breakouts, wrap up 07:20:03 zakim, agenda? 07:20:03 I see 13 items remaining on the agenda: 07:20:04 2. authoring guide [from Lachy via DanC_lap] 07:20:05 6. 9:00-9:15: Get settled [from CWilso] 07:20:07 7. 9:15-10:30: Progress review/evaluation of stability of sections of HTML5 spec [from CWilso] 07:20:10 8. 10:30-11:00: Coffee break [from CWilso] 07:20:11 9. 11:00-11:45 Introduction to writing test cases [from CWilso] 07:20:13 10. 11:45-12:30 writing test cases [from CWilso] 07:20:14 12. 11:45-12:30 Implicit accessibility roles (concurrent discussion) [from CWilso] 07:20:16 13. 12:30-14:00: Lunch break [from CWilso] 07:20:18 14. 14:00-14:45: Review open issues from tracker [from CWilso] 07:20:20 15. 14:45-15:30: wrap up test case/tutorial discussion [from CWilso] 07:20:21 16. 15:30-16:00: Afternoon break [from CWilso] 07:20:23 17. 16:00-17:00: SVG-in-HTML discussion [from CWilso] 07:20:24 18. 17:00-17:30: Report back from breakouts, wrap up [from CWilso] 07:20:42 ori has joined #html-wg 07:21:05 zakim, drop agendum 2 07:21:05 agendum 2, authoring guide, dropped 07:21:20 zakim, take up agendum 6 07:21:20 agendum 6. "9:00-9:15: Get settled" taken up [from CWilso] 07:21:21 gsnedders, because why bother speaking when you can just type it? 07:21:47 Lachy: Why did we even bother to come to France? 07:21:56 Lachy: To have somewhere warmer to sit around with laptops? 07:22:50 gsnedders, I came for the food 07:22:52 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/ 07:22:54 Title: HTML 5 (at www.w3.org) 07:23:03 I came for the deserts 07:23:09 zakim, next item 07:23:09 agendum 7. "9:15-10:30: Progress review/evaluation of stability of sections of HTML5 spec" taken up [from CWilso] 07:23:23 zakim, close agendum 6 07:23:23 agendum 6, 9:00-9:15: Get settled, closed 07:23:24 I see 11 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 07:23:25 7. 9:15-10:30: Progress review/evaluation of stability of sections of HTML5 spec [from CWilso] 07:23:34 you are here together so you can hear laughters, smiles, sees, etc ;) which is quite cool in human relationships 07:23:47 heycam has joined #html-wg 07:23:56 s/smiles, sees/can smile, can see/ 07:24:24 ori, I haven't seen any deserts in france. But they do have nice desserts 07:24:32 http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/ 07:24:33 Title: HTML 5 (at www.whatwg.org) 07:24:44 Yes right :-) 07:25:09 aaaah for deserts… there are some kind of deserts in France or very dry or sandy areas. 07:25:27 Corsica for example - Désert des Agriates 07:25:36 If you want deserts you are welcome to come to my country - Israel 07:27:46 http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/status.cgi?action=get-all-annotations 07:28:19 I got "Error: OK (403)" 07:29:10 tlr has joined #html-wg 07:30:53 scribe: smedero 07:31:06 scribenick: smedero 07:31:16 Oh, if you use the username you put and not the email it works 07:31:31 CW: The goal this morning is to go through the spec with an eye towards building a test suite 07:31:35 JonathanJ has joined #html-wg 07:31:50 adrianba has joined #html-wg 07:32:17 MikeSmith: We talked about when the TAG was here, having a rational discussion about what parts of the spec can be split out 07:32:36 MikeSmith: Assess work effort for possible sections 07:32:44 Hixie: I can take a action item to do that 07:33:03 MikeSmith: We should focus now on the status part 07:33:14 ... I can take on updating the annotations 07:33:44 Hixie: What info do we want for a section? 07:34:56 DanC_lap has joined #html-wg 07:35:30 ah... found the annotations hacking I did; it's in http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/html5/spec/ 07:35:31 MikeSmith: There is one section we should talk about right now 07:35:31 Title: html5/spec/ (at dev.w3.org) 07:35:37 najib has joined #html-wg 07:35:48 ... 1.4.3 Relationship to XHTML 1.x 07:36:06 Hixie: We are waiting from feedback from the XHTML2 WG 07:36:18 Lachy: What were their complaints? 07:36:24 Hixie: They didn't like it 07:36:43 DanC_lap: We should find the email addressing their complaints 07:37:04 this one from Roland? http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jun/0264.html 07:37:04 s/DanC_lap/DanC/ 07:37:05 Title: Re: changes in HTML5 draft regarding XHTML1 from Roland Merrick on 2008-06-20 (public-html@w3.org from June 2008) (at lists.w3.org) 07:37:24 MikeSmith: The initial objections were communicated privately to me 07:37:52 in that 20 jun msg, he accepts the ball "I will put the subject on the agenda for our WG telecon. 07:37:52 " 07:37:54 MikeSmith: Originally they objected to language that has since been changed 07:38:05 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Jul/0037.html is the latest i could find 07:38:07 Title: Re: changes in HTML5 draft regarding XHTML1 from Roland Merrick on 2008-07-31 (public-xhtml2@w3.org from July 2008) (at lists.w3.org) 07:38:34 q+ 07:38:35 "we will get back to you" -- Merrick 31 July http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jul/0417.html 07:38:40 Title: Re: changes in HTML5 draft regarding XHTML1 from Roland Merrick on 2008-07-31 (public-html@w3.org from July 2008) (at lists.w3.org) 07:39:46 The other messages from the XHTML2 WG: 07:39:46 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jun/0251.html 07:39:46 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jun/0253.html 07:39:48 http://www.w3.org/2008/06/19-xhtml-minutes#item01 07:39:48 Title: Re: changes in HTML5 draft regarding XHTML1 from Roland Merrick on 2008-06-19 (public-html@w3.org from June 2008) (at lists.w3.org) 07:39:49 Title: Re: changes in HTML5 draft regarding XHTML1 from Roland Merrick on 2008-06-19 (public-html@w3.org from June 2008) (at lists.w3.org) 07:39:50 Title: XHTML2 WG Virtual FtF Day 3 -- 19 Jun 2008 (at www.w3.org) 07:40:21 MikeSmith: Hixie, we need another status category in your annotation tool for sections. 07:40:30 .... "pending feedback" 07:41:01 anne has joined #html-wg 07:41:03 Hixie: I would like to add something like "controversial feedback" 07:41:14 issue-52: "we will get back to you" -- Merrick 31 July http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jul/0417.html 07:41:14 ISSUE-52 Resolve XHTML2 WG objections to language in HTML5 draft regarding XHTML1 notes added 07:41:15 Title: Re: changes in HTML5 draft regarding XHTML1 from Roland Merrick on 2008-07-31 (public-html@w3.org from July 2008) (at lists.w3.org) 07:41:49 bijan has joined #html-wg 07:42:02 ack Julian 07:42:47 html5 is listed in http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml too 07:42:48 Title: XHTML namespace (at www.w3.org) 07:44:06 DanC: ISSUE-52 contains pointers XHMTL 2 WG's concern with the spec language 07:44:28 action: ChrisWilson to suggestion text for 1.4.4 07:44:29 Created ACTION-78 - Suggestion text for 1.4.4 [on Chris Wilson - due 2008-10-31]. 07:44:47 MikeSmith: Everytime I go somewhere to speak I am asked "how does XHTML 5 relate to XHTML 1 or 2"? 07:44:57 action-62? 07:44:57 ACTION-62 -- Michael(tm) Smith to ensure HTML WG response to XHTML 2 WG re name of XML serialization http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Oct/0385.html -- due 2008-10-02 -- OPEN 07:44:57 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/62 07:44:58 Title: Re: The only name for the xml serialisation of html5 from Dan Connolly on 2007-10-31 (public-html@w3.org from October 2007) (at lists.w3.org) 07:44:59 Title: ACTION-62 - HTML Issue Tracking Tracker (at www.w3.org) 07:45:02 tlr has joined #html-wg 07:45:25 MikeSmith: I can talk to Roland this week and see where we are at 07:46:28 CW: 1.5 is controversial because of the name "XHTML5" 07:47:11 rrsagent, draft minutes 07:47:11 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-html-wg-minutes.html smedero 07:47:17 rsagent, make minutes public 07:47:29 rrsagent, make minutes public 07:47:29 I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', smedero. Try /msg RRSAgent help 07:49:19 Sander has joined #html-wg 07:49:27 Lachy: I'm trying to find an older email where concerns were expressed about the namespace 07:49:45 MM: I object to the namespace 07:50:02 CW: Explain why we can't use something else 07:50:15 Hixie: The browsers already use this namespace (in section 2.1.1) 07:50:42 http://html5.lachy.id.au/output?data=%3Chtml+xmlns%3D%22http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2Fns%2Fnot-xhtml%22%3E%0D%0A%3Ctitle%3ETest%3C%2Ftitle%3E%0D%0A%3Cp%3Etest%3C%2Fp%3E%0D%0A%3C%2Fhtml%3E&type=application%2Fxhtml%2Bxml 07:50:43 Title: Test (at html5.lachy.id.au) 07:50:44 MM: I understand that may be your goal, the namespace belongs to the W3C and XHTML 07:51:03 MM: You're applying a different meaning 07:51:17 issue: Reuse of 1998 XHTML namespace is potentially misleading/wrong 07:51:17 Created ISSUE-60 - Reuse of 1998 XHTML namespace is potentially misleading/wrong ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/60/edit . 07:51:23 Lachy: In Firefox you get a DOM tree 07:52:07 s/1998/1999/ 07:52:19 MM: Yesterday we had a talk with TAG about having a contract. There is an expectation with other user-agents and you're violating that contract. 07:52:23 action: ChrisWilson - send email to spark issue-60 07:52:23 Created ACTION-79 - - send email to spark issue-60 [on Chris Wilson - due 2008-10-31]. 07:52:43 CW: We have evidence then that this section (2.1.1) is controversial 07:52:55 MikeSmith: It might be nice to have a freeform comment field in your annotation tool 07:53:00 Hixie: We do, it is the mailing list 07:53:17 CW: It might be nice though to have these comments inline with the spec 07:53:34 Lachy, is the namespace name observable from tests without using the application/xhtml-xml mime type? 07:53:48 yes 07:54:22 alert(document.body.namespaceURI) 07:54:24 ok. whew. thought I was confused. 07:54:27 if we were to use a different namespace for the HTML serialisation from the XHTML serialisation, then that would create problems 07:54:40 and we cannot get away with using a different namespace for XHTML 07:55:17 seems worthwhile, to me, to capture that constraint in a test case. here's hoping. 07:55:36 switching namespace is as much of a non-starter as switching all the tag names. in fact it's basically the same thing 07:57:19 MikeSmith: Moving on to review section 2.2 07:57:32 Hixie: Conformance requirements is pretty stable 07:57:54 DanC: I'm very much unhappy about the conformance section 07:58:08 DanC: It is not objective, the conformance requirements depend on the mood of the author 07:58:24 CW: I understand what you are saying, I might put it a different way 07:58:25 at least if you switch all the tag names you still keep the HTMLElement interface (so class and style etc still work). if you switch the namespace it's just Element (only xml:lang etc works) 07:58:42 ... you should raise the issue if you like 07:58:59 DanC: I've raised it in an email before 07:59:22 CW: You should make a recommendation with alternative language 07:59:23 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Aug/1187.html 07:59:25 Title: keep conformance objective (detailed review of section 1. Introduction) from Dan Connolly on 2007-08-30 (public-html@w3.org from August 2007) (at lists.w3.org) 07:59:57 issue: conformance depends on author's intent 07:59:57 Created ISSUE-61 - Conformance depends on author's intent ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/61/edit . 08:00:17 issue-61: originates in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Aug/1187.html 08:00:17 ISSUE-61 Conformance depends on author's intent notes added 08:00:19 Title: keep conformance objective (detailed review of section 1. Introduction) from Dan Connolly on 2007-08-30 (public-html@w3.org from August 2007) (at lists.w3.org) 08:00:26 MikeSmith: What about section 2.2.2? "this section will be removed at some point" 08:00:39 Hixie: I want to replace it with a pointer to DOM3CORE 08:01:00 MikeSmith: What is are the asterisks on the spec? 08:01:18 Hixie: Whenever you see those there is a red box in that section 08:01:22 jun has joined #html-wg 08:01:30 chaals has joined #html-wg 08:01:48 CW: In section 2.3 is that really what IE does for string comparison? 08:02:04 Hixie: Yes 08:03:00 CW: We'll need to go through and double-check 08:03:14 Hixie: Feedback on this section would be very welcome 08:03:44 (this string compare stuff seems straightforward to test too. but ok... I guess I'm OK to focus more on status/requirements than test-suite-building) 08:04:19 DanC: The annotation system allows for links to test, right? 08:04:22 Hixie: Yes 08:04:53 marcos has joined #html-wg 08:05:21 MikeSmith: Who has tests for section 2.4.1? 08:05:47 zcorpan has joined #html-wg 08:06:05 [in section 2.3 - the issue is that IE does caseless string compares in some situations where other browsers might do ASCII case-insensitive compares. we will need to review each compare to ensure we're making the right decision.] 08:06:08 Geoffery Sneddon: I had test for section 2.4.3 and I've just updated the annotation 08:06:39 ... I think my test may be out of date 08:06:44 s/test/tests/ 08:07:01 DanC: Someone can try to reproduce your results though 08:07:16 JonathanJ has joined #html-wg 08:07:54 MM: Can we have pointers in the spec to open issues? 08:08:02 Hixie: It would be hard to keep them up-to-date 08:08:09 (thousands of issues? I count 59. http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues ) 08:08:11 Title: Issues - HTML Issue Tracking Tracker (at www.w3.org) 08:08:16 GS: Could we have something like when a section was last edited? 08:09:03 JonathanJ has joined #html-wg 08:10:30 JonathanJ has joined #html-wg 08:11:25 MM: What mechanism do we have to know there are no complains? 08:11:37 s/complains/complaints 08:12:26 MikeSmith: We use the w3c tracker system and the w3c bugzilla system for different groups 08:13:15 MM: I'm not interested in the systems, what is the process used within the working group to determine stability of the spec 08:13:41 hmm... my annotations-munging code seems horked. 08:14:21 ... how can different groups tracking the stability of individual sections? the descriptions of the editing states aren't all that helpful 08:15:05 ... I'm used to working with a little more clarity with status levels on a document going through an editorial process. it should be more visible to members of other working groups and the public. 08:15:54 BM: What is the process you are used to? 08:16:28 q+ 08:16:37 MM: That there is a metric to measure stability or clear definition of what the process is 08:17:06 CW: I share your concerns but we need something flexible 08:17:18 shepazu has joined #html-wg 08:17:21 MikeSmith: Having some kinda of mechanism for when the status changes, would be great 08:17:33 ... maybe we can have something like an RSS feed or something automated 08:18:05 CW: We need some way to define what a controversial section means 08:18:14 aha... I was matching on match="h:ul[@class='toc']" and it's now an

q? 08:19:22 Hixie: The issues that have been marked controversial so far, have all been marked just today so I don't have anything other than what is in the minutes for today. 08:19:23 q+ Cynthia 08:19:31 we are now using the queue 08:19:59 q+ 08:20:00 q+ 08:20:11 ack karl 08:20:15 cshelly has joined #html-wg 08:20:37 Karl Dubost: My impression of the process was that everything is a working draft until there are enough implementations to make a section stable 08:20:51 q+ 08:20:56 q+ Murray 08:20:57 ack cynthia 08:21:30 ack cshelly 08:21:44 Cynthia: I want to describe some of the process we had on WCAG. 08:21:58 ... we would send out surveys to our members 08:22:04 tH has joined #html-wg 08:22:12 ... and we would discuss the survey feedback on telecons 08:22:40 ... once consensus was reached we didn't reopen sections 08:22:45 ack julian 08:22:58 Julian: I am confused about the term "last call" on a section 08:23:25 ... I'm not sure if it means I only have a certain time left to respond 08:23:45 CW: It is not like "Last Call", in the capital L and C sense 08:23:50 ack hixie 08:24:18 dbaron has joined #html-wg 08:24:18 Hixie: Right now there are 2500 outstanding emails 08:24:50 ... we are not reopening a section when the feedback has been processed 08:25:16 ... but often feedback comes in afterward that necessitates reopening a section (for example, security issues) 08:25:53 ... once something is implemented interoperably we don't have much room to change 08:26:18 ack murray 08:26:22 ... once you have implementations and people are using them we can't change them 08:26:25 q+ 08:27:09 MM: There are places for the status of implementations for browsers. Shouldn't one of the status be "not applicable"? 08:27:52 q+ 08:28:03 ... the technical part might be stable but the text part might need work still 08:29:26 ... it seems to me it would be useful to distinguish between the editor's view and the working group's view 08:30:57 ack cshelly 08:31:09 ... we should leverage the semantic web resources at the w3c because it seems like this spec is a good example of an awesome semantic web application 08:31:10 (our system admin channel bot quips "sounds like a semantic web project" when asked to do something unfamiliar) 08:31:35 q? 08:31:44 [10:32] infobot, what about a better tracking system? 08:31:44 [10:32] danc_lap: sounds like a good semantic web project 08:31:51 darobin has joined #html-wg 08:32:22 Cynthia: How do you know when something is done and how do you decide when to reopen? 08:32:31 q+ Murray 08:33:26 CW: We do have a process for that. The decision making process is that editor makes a recommendation in text and we use a number of mechanism to review that. 08:33:35 s/mechanism/mechanisms/ 08:34:22 ...we try to have significant discussion about an issue to gauge consensus before we go to polling the working group. 08:34:23 ack hixie 08:34:28 fixed my code... 08:35:07 Hixie: I want to clarify a comment that Murray made between the difference on my opinion of a section and the working group's opinion. 08:35:21 ... my opinion is based on whether or not there is outstanding feedback 08:35:52 ack murray 08:35:53 q? 08:36:16 MM: There doesn't seem to be an audit trail for feedback. 08:36:32 CW: We do have that, there is the mailing list and issue tracking. 08:36:55 issue tracking in particular is the answer to the "audit trail" question 08:37:34 q+ Murray 08:37:49 Hixie: The reason that implementations are already an issue is because the implementors are writing code quickly 08:38:17 agenda? 08:38:55 tlr has joined #html-wg 08:38:58 ... when there is one implementation we can talk to implementor and make changes but once there are two or three implementations it becomes much harder 08:39:28 there... http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/html5/spec/toc-status.html?rev=1.3 08:40:35 ack murray 08:40:48 (which also serves as a copy of (some of the) annotation data on w3.org) 08:41:51 s/wants/needs 08:42:02 http://www.whatwg.org/issues/ 08:42:03 Title: WHATWG Issues List (at www.whatwg.org) 08:44:31 zakim, take up agendum 8 08:44:31 agendum 8. "10:30-11:00: Coffee break" taken up [from CWilso] 08:44:40 rrsagent, draft minutes 08:44:40 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-html-wg-minutes.html smedero 08:44:53 rrsagent, make public minutes 08:44:53 I'm logging. I don't understand 'make public minutes', smedero. Try /msg RRSAgent help 08:44:54 Title: SV_MEETING_TITLE -- 24 Oct 2008 (at www.w3.org) 08:46:12 rrsagent, make logs public 08:46:37 did he go out with chaals? 08:46:44 ;) 08:47:11 anyone else want to scribe? because uh, while this last session went on i've got some issue tracking work I need to catch up 08:47:17 +present Michael Smith 08:47:30 RRSAgent: draft minutes 08:47:30 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-html-wg-minutes.html gsnedders 08:47:35 Title: SV_MEETING_TITLE -- 24 Oct 2008 (at www.w3.org) 08:48:21 present+ Michael_Smith 08:48:33 present+ Chris_Wilson 08:49:05 someone needs to do that 08:49:13 I can't recall everyone's name offhand 08:53:39 Meeting: HTML WG 09:05:29 bonjour, mes amis 09:07:06 agenda? 09:08:17 hsivonen: ping 09:09:06 Zakim, drop agendum 10 09:09:06 agendum 10, 11:45-12:30 writing test cases, dropped 09:09:27 Are at 2.5? 09:09:38 agenda+ 11:45-12:30 authoring guide 09:10:15 Zakim, drop agendum 14 09:10:15 agendum 14, 14:00-14:45: Review open issues from tracker, dropped 09:10:25 scribe volunteers? 09:12:35 scribenick: cshelly 09:12:43 scribe: CynthiaShelley 09:12:56 tlr has joined #html-wg 09:13:00 scribe: CynthiaShelly 09:13:13 topic: 2.5.1, 2.5.2, 2.5.3 09:13:29 i.e. URL sections 09:14:54 chair: MikeSmith 09:15:20 bijan has joined #html-wg 09:16:24 would be great for somebody to pick up testing and report interop results for base uris 09:17:22 hlee has joined #html-wg 09:19:18