IRC log of egov on 2008-10-24

Timestamps are in UTC.

06:55:40 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #egov
06:55:40 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-egov-irc
06:55:45 [josema]
zakim, this will be egov
06:55:47 [Zakim]
ok, josema; I see T&S_EGOV()3:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes
06:56:05 [john]
john has joined #eGov
06:56:09 [josema]
chair: john
06:56:20 [josema]
topic: joint meeting with PLING
07:03:39 [josema]
trackbot, start telcon
07:03:41 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
07:03:43 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be EGOV
07:03:43 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see T&S_EGOV()3:00AM scheduled to start 3 minutes ago
07:03:44 [trackbot]
Meeting: eGovernment Interest Group Teleconference
07:03:44 [trackbot]
Date: 24 October 2008
07:03:53 [josema]
chair: john
07:04:00 [josema]
topic: joint meeting with PLING
07:04:10 [josema]
zakim, call esterel
07:04:10 [Zakim]
ok, josema; the call is being made
07:04:11 [Zakim]
T&S_EGOV()3:00AM has now started
07:04:12 [Zakim]
+Esterel
07:07:01 [Zakim]
+??P4
07:07:03 [Zakim]
-??P4
07:07:03 [Zakim]
+??P4
07:07:10 [mamol]
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07:07:40 [josema]
zakim, ??P4 is trond
07:07:41 [Zakim]
+trond; got it
07:08:45 [josema]
scribeNick: josema
07:09:06 [josema]
renato: chair of PLING, joint meeting to discuss about potential overlap
07:09:37 [josema]
... social networks also in scope for us as an interesting case to look at
07:09:47 [josema]
... also people from PrimeLife EU project
07:09:52 [BeNg]
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07:09:56 [josema]
q?
07:10:16 [caribou]
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07:10:20 [josema]
... also policies that can impact human activity on the Web
07:10:57 [josema]
rigo: I think we have identified the need for a general ?? framework that should interest govs
07:11:20 [josema]
... where you can push general policy on your data records that travel
07:11:28 [josema]
... so you'll know about that data in the future
07:11:45 [Ralph]
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07:12:10 [josema]
... general policy constraining?? framework
07:12:31 [josema]
... we need more use cases
07:12:34 [Rinke]
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07:12:53 [josema]
renato: we need to capture the needs of the larger community
07:12:59 [josema]
rigo: also experience with large scale use cases
07:14:09 [josema]
... we spend our time thinking about 4 types of interaction: G2G, G2C,...
07:14:36 [josema]
... whole of stuff that is going on around the Web, some wrong
07:14:49 [josema]
... very simple stuff that needs to be improved
07:15:14 [josema]
... discussed about use of performance data, how to improve policy outcomes in some areas
07:15:24 [josema]
... describe that with use cases in those areas
07:15:34 [josema]
... eg. G2G needs more data sharing
07:16:15 [josema]
... G2C important issue of how people uses data that the government produces
07:16:23 [josema]
renato: is this documented?
07:16:39 [josema]
john: we are starting, group is young
07:16:45 [josema]
... but starting to document already
07:16:56 [josema]
... some things are very difficult, scope is broad
07:17:11 [josema]
... understanding the landscape takes time
07:17:28 [josema]
... data sharing is massive, almost any kind of public policy outcome
07:17:50 [josema]
... needs this, there are legal challenges, also challenges around errors
07:18:17 [josema]
... eg. to transfer the data between two departments, there was the need to use a CDRom
07:18:26 [josema]
... that was lost in the transaction
07:19:30 [josema]
??: that is a problem I found already because of the policy itself??
07:20:06 [josema]
... certification and law in place should help improve this??
07:20:36 [caribou]
s/??/Andreas/
07:20:48 [josema]
... there also ideas of modifying processes, methods, etc.
07:21:03 [josema]
... we need to make sure the certification bodies to take care of this asap ??
07:21:22 [josema]
john: from UK perspective, we don't have two levels but many to classify material
07:21:43 [josema]
... problem change the higher we go, higher end covers eg. intelligence community
07:22:05 [rigo]
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07:22:10 [josema]
... you'd think it'd work well at that level, but there also problems there
07:22:23 [josema]
... another approach is the risk of having the info public or not
07:22:23 [Vagner-br]
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07:22:57 [klaus]
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07:23:23 [josema]
... one person's tax record might not be that interesting but 25 million is different
07:23:30 [josema]
... also approach to take into account
07:23:57 [josema]
... we commissioned a data handling review and for the first time
07:24:14 [josema]
... every gov dept had to identify their data assets and one person responsible for them
07:24:42 [josema]
andrea: and you make a persona liable for gov data?
07:25:16 [josema]
john: no, conversations are happening on how to deal with it
07:25:33 [josema]
... we probably need new legislation in place to deal with this
07:25:41 [josema]
??: [lost comment]
07:25:54 [caribou]
s/??/Lucy Lynch/
07:26:26 [caribou]
s/[lost comment]/are those things redundant? if not it's a single point of failure
07:26:27 [josema]
rigo: enforcement by stamp, one of the issues that we have is that when developing those use cases
07:26:59 [josema]
... you have to very strict, perhaps a piece of data in a DB somewhere dissapears and it's spread among many
07:27:08 [josema]
... different systems, like in a graph
07:27:19 [josema]
... how would you re-construct it? find it?
07:27:45 [caribou]
s/things/"persons"/
07:28:48 [josema]
[lost some]
07:29:05 [josema]
jan: interesting question, how W3C can be relevant to solve some of these issues
07:29:14 [josema]
... you can probably do better than losing those 2 CDs
07:29:21 [josema]
... what's the scope of eGov at W3C here?
07:30:02 [josema]
rigo: from PLING side we need to be able to represent the constraints that governments have
07:30:47 [caribou]
Andreas: you need a system to help the person managing the asset
07:30:58 [caribou]
... W3C could help putting a framework in place
07:31:08 [caribou]
... that could be a relevant UC
07:31:42 [caribou]
... if you have the system set up, the responsable owners of the asset have a chance to deal with it
07:32:03 [josema]
john: to give you a sense of scale, in just one department in the Ministry of Interior
07:32:33 [josema]
... there are one hundred people that are "data owners"
07:33:07 [josema]
rigo: I already see this concept about the silo that one owns
07:33:21 [josema]
... one the silo disappears everything change
07:33:38 [josema]
john: do you want to solve today's or tomorrow's problem?
07:33:59 [josema]
rigo: I want to solve today's problem with tomorrow's solution
07:34:44 [josema]
andreas: ??
07:35:09 [josema]
rigo: you can make some things harder, eg. obscurity
07:35:22 [josema]
... but having a reliable one is a different story
07:35:39 [josema]
... ???
07:36:09 [rigo]
discussion about enforcement of data handling with DRM on gov data
07:36:22 [josema]
john: there are social, cultural changes involved, too
07:36:39 [rigo]
discussion whether making such secure system is possible
07:36:58 [rigo]
rigo: may be technically possible, but would render system unusable
07:36:59 [josema]
renato: government as consumer use cases would be interesting, too
07:37:12 [josema]
... eg. consumers applying for something and making sure the info
07:37:21 [josema]
... is being kept private by gov
07:37:27 [josema]
john: big piece of our concern
07:37:30 [rigo]
ri: user entering data like in social network, but in gov context
07:37:56 [josema]
... if public trust is about the way keeps the info
07:38:04 [rigo]
??: how to express consent in gov systems to be able to share data for better service
07:38:09 [josema]
s/way/way gov
07:38:11 [rigo]
especially personal data
07:38:21 [rigo]
some can be done with anon data
07:38:57 [josema]
... you need to share that info between departments, taxes, social security
07:39:11 [josema]
... you need to introduce the concept of citizen consent
07:39:25 [josema]
... the citizen consents the gov to use it to provide him a better service
07:39:56 [josema]
@@: in Germany there's the concept where every agency needs to ask the citizen for
07:40:09 [josema]
... permission to use it@@@
07:40:11 [rigo]
s/@@/Jan Schallaböck/
07:40:19 [josema]
martin: in NL the case is the opposite
07:40:50 [rigo]
martin: digital id, SMS via mobile
07:41:01 [josema]
... we have identified two levels related to eID: user/pwd and SMS sent to your mobile
07:41:08 [josema]
... depending on the kind of transaction
07:41:21 [josema]
rigo: we discussed that yesterday, ENISA wants to have an ontology
07:41:35 [josema]
... on security levels, which is arbitrary at the beginning
07:41:46 [josema]
... and people define as they go
07:42:06 [josema]
... they want to define some protocols at the beginning
07:42:32 [josema]
... so you could identify the security levels at the beginning and ??
07:43:05 [josema]
... this is a discussion that will happen no matter the security level
07:43:13 [josema]
... ???
07:43:43 [rigo]
JS: common criteria already provides levels of security
07:44:23 [josema]
js: that's the kind of stuff I'd like to see in govs
07:44:42 [josema]
... if a guy is in charge and the only one with permission to access the data
07:44:48 [josema]
... I wouldn't like to see other accessing it
07:44:56 [rigo]
...identify first the object of audit
07:45:30 [josema]
rigo: with common criteria auditing, we could transform the population of China into
07:45:36 [josema]
... ISO @@ consultants
07:45:51 [BeNg]
martin : in the NL the IDs are developed in open software
07:45:53 [josema]
... issue with common criteria is that it does not scale, it's impractical
07:46:55 [mamol]
s/NL the IDs/NL the software to handle login by IDs/
07:46:57 [josema]
john: there's one more issue I'd like to draw
07:47:20 [josema]
... ?? initiative about property rights ???
07:47:28 [rigo]
DRM
07:47:47 [josema]
... even basic data sets could be an aggregration of various properties
07:48:02 [josema]
... and have to make the reusable on the Web
07:48:12 [josema]
renato: I agree
07:48:46 [josema]
john: then you can have the government use CC like in NL, NZ
07:49:33 [josema]
... we have something similar but need to go beyond given our needs
07:49:42 [josema]
... we are using RDF and RDFa for that
07:50:02 [josema]
martin: CC needs to be translated into NL if we want to use it
07:50:36 [mamol]
s/NL/duth legal framework/
07:50:43 [josema]
rigo: I face this issue about the translation before in Germany, too
07:51:36 [josema]
... issues about the attribution, who writes, who translates...
07:52:16 [josema]
renato: you mentioned UK government about what's missing, some document available?
07:52:56 [josema]
john: the underlying license we have seems to be better for the lawyers that are examining it
07:53:16 [josema]
... presentation of CC is ok, but the underlying license we have seems o be much better
07:53:59 [rigo]
go adapt CC UK, had the same issue with GPLv3 and addressed with them
07:54:04 [rigo]
was JS
07:54:30 [rigo]
John: where we license for free, we have a comprehensive before CC was issued
07:55:09 [rigo]
...now who is supposed to follow who?
07:55:31 [rigo]
...can start by linking licensing stuff with ontology
07:56:04 [rigo]
....IP issue of third party rights, from re-use perspective has to take that into account
07:57:05 [josema]
rigo: with the labeling framework we have in mind this is something you could do??
07:57:16 [mamol]
John: the use of RDFa might solve these problems
07:57:20 [rigo]
..using RDFa in semi automated structure, testing if combinantion of data creates new data base rights
07:57:27 [josema]
... eg. using RDFa to describe the license of this and that part of a given doucument
07:58:00 [josema]
rigo: one of my concerns is why is everybody following the CC wagon? even W3C
07:58:22 [josema]
... because it makes people's life easier to understand the basic text and not thousands of lines
07:58:47 [josema]
renato: and they only offer a few of those with names that are easy to identify ??
07:59:23 [josema]
jan: they still own the trademark, they have the updating process and ???
08:00:21 [josema]
john: licensing system for the public sector have to permit commercial reuse, this is very important
08:00:42 [josema]
... because if not the PSI sector would die ????
08:01:39 [josema]
rigo: if you take geolocation as example, in US you pay say $10 for using it
08:02:01 [rigo]
in EU you fly over and photograph again
08:03:29 [josema]
renato: great conversation, hope useful for both groups, let's keep in touch and share info
08:03:35 [josema]
[mini break]
08:03:36 [caribou]
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08:03:44 [josema]
rrsagent, pointer?
08:03:44 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-egov-irc#T08-03-44
08:04:16 [Zakim]
-trond
08:05:44 [josema]
topic: plan, deliverables and specific use cases
08:06:29 [josema]
john: let's start with the most interesting use cases so far
08:06:39 [josema]
... policy with respect to data sharing
08:06:45 [josema]
... and property rights expression
08:07:16 [josema]
... also something around "your Web site is your API"
08:07:31 [josema]
... ways for people to reuse data and enable data reuse
08:08:23 [josema]
... something which is more a policy issue is what kind of framework gov might have to make decissions
08:08:33 [josema]
.. about what data should be released and how
08:09:12 [john]
q?
08:09:16 [josema]
... another one on participation of public officials in social media and in C2C conversations
08:09:42 [BeNg]
jose : discuss these cases before going into detail with policy or technology
08:10:53 [josema]
martin: add identification and authentication issue there
08:11:58 [josema]
beng: also about the different levels of "visibility" of the data and how a citizen can communicate information and if that can be reusable or not ??
08:12:44 [josema]
john: 1) G2G data sharing
08:13:03 [josema]
... 2) "your Web site is you API"
08:13:43 [josema]
... 3) licensing rights expression to enable reuse
08:14:03 [josema]
... 4) what government data does the Web need?
08:14:10 [josema]
... eg: mapping
08:14:31 [josema]
... how do make that decision and what business models you should use?
08:14:50 [josema]
beng: how do you envision the contribution of the Group in this area?
08:15:05 [josema]
john: take a step back, see what's out there and how
08:15:21 [josema]
martin: eg. do you want to rely on Google mahsups for such an information?
08:15:35 [josema]
... very simple question, maybe difficult to answer
08:16:21 [josema]
... and government agencies have better mapping info
08:16:31 [josema]
john: 5) participation in social media
08:16:50 [josema]
... 6) identification and authentication
08:18:07 [josema]
beng: aggregation but also timing, until when you'd be able to use it
08:18:20 [josema]
martin: ??
08:18:51 [josema]
s/aggregation/ 7) aggregation
08:19:56 [josema]
oscar: long term archiving, there are different requirements in the physical archives world
08:20:31 [josema]
... in the digital world there are differences, but you need to look into the challenges
08:21:00 [josema]
... should I encrypt? until what extent? until when that digital signature will last? etc.
08:21:35 [josema]
martin: we should add the migration from hard copy to digital
08:21:43 [josema]
... to that case
08:22:22 [josema]
john: 8) digital preservation
08:23:19 [josema]
beng: and you must be able to destroy info when law says that
08:23:21 [josema]
??
08:24:38 [josema]
john: paper world also has the single place storage and ???
08:25:13 [josema]
martin: that's the 3rd item, maybe not significant for eArchiving ????
08:26:51 [josema]
john: census data in the UK every ten years
08:27:06 [josema]
... but only released every 100 years
08:27:26 [josema]
... if we had to digitize we'd need loads of money because the data is so big
08:27:48 [josema]
... how this could work in the future?
08:28:13 [josema]
... digital continuity project is about middle distance, eg. ensure you could get the info in 15 years from today
08:29:16 [josema]
... also the issue of autheticity is of importance, still open questions
08:29:43 [josema]
oscar: maybe we can ask the XML DSig people?
08:30:32 [josema]
martin: issue I have is that stuff made this way seems to be done
08:31:01 [josema]
... for instant use, may be broken in the near future ?????
08:31:17 [josema]
oscar: issue I see is that we are doubling the number of bytes every year
08:31:40 [josema]
martin: you need to have a new signature attached before the old one expires
08:31:46 [darobin]
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08:32:24 [BeNg]
jose : many EU govs are archiving their documents in proprietory formats
08:32:39 [BeNg]
... in spain you as a citizen have a right to communicate with the gov in any format you want
08:32:48 [BeNg]
.. you can send a word doc digitally signed they need to archive
08:32:56 [BeNg]
... and they cannont touch the doc
08:33:04 [BeNg]
martin : can they print it out ?
08:33:09 [BeNg]
oscar : the what happens to the signature
08:33:23 [BeNg]
jose : no real answer yet
08:35:34 [john]
You may like to think: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/electronicrecords/digitalcontinuity/default.htm
08:35:51 [john]
not think, see
08:36:09 [josema]
zakim, esterel has oscar, john, renke, martin, beng, ralph
08:36:09 [Zakim]
+oscar, john, renke, martin, beng, ralph; got it
08:36:23 [josema]
zakim, klaus has entered esterel
08:36:23 [Zakim]
+klaus; got it
08:36:56 [BeNg]
q+ for a question on signatures
08:37:38 [josema]
john: government does not keep emails for long
08:37:51 [josema]
... some may be trivial, but some may be very useful
08:38:08 [josema]
.. eg. to understand the social networks public servant have
08:38:23 [josema]
... how the relate, and I could do network analysis and improve my business
08:38:45 [josema]
martin: exactly the answer why you should not convert a Word doc into PDF and just store the PDF one
08:38:55 [josema]
... there are historical aspects involved
08:39:37 [josema]
... I'm interested in digital workflow of the docs
08:40:25 [josema]
ack be
08:40:26 [Zakim]
BeNg, you wanted to discuss a question on signatures
08:40:48 [josema]
beng: how are the documents re-sign?
08:40:51 [BeNg]
q-
08:41:17 [josema]
martin: both things separate and renew of signature ??
08:41:32 [josema]
s/documents/documents are
08:43:01 [josema]
[discussion is leading to trust again]
08:43:32 [josema]
john: you can scope the size of conspiracy you need
08:43:36 [josema]
... in the digital world
08:43:46 [josema]
... spread the info to as many places as needed
08:43:59 [josema]
... and inject that info here and there
08:44:29 [josema]
beng: but if it's sensitive data you might not want to have millions of people getting that data
08:45:54 [josema]
john: authenticity is for good while sensitivity degrades over time
08:47:16 [josema]
martin: there are many aspects around this that need to be looked into
08:47:32 [josema]
... we need to conclude this is a big concern, and we don't have the solutions
08:47:44 [josema]
... we need to raise this with other Groups
08:48:07 [josema]
john: I think I can also commit my organization to produce a first draft for the Group to discuss
08:48:22 [josema]
... it touches on our core business
08:50:10 [josema]
[BREAK]
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09:39:01 [josema]
[BREAK is over]
09:41:01 [josema]
scribeNick: mamol
09:42:17 [josema]
rrsagent, draft minutes
09:42:17 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-egov-minutes.html josema
09:42:51 [josema]
scribe: martin
09:43:18 [mamol]
the link http://www.forumstandaardisatie.nl/fileadmin/OVOS/Exploring_authentication__EN.pdf
09:46:25 [josema]
zakim, who's here?
09:46:25 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Esterel
09:46:26 [Zakim]
Esterel has oscar, john, renke, martin, beng, ralph, klaus
09:46:28 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Rinke, darobin, Vagner-br, BeNg, mamol, john, RRSAgent, Zakim, josema, kjetil, trackbot
09:46:29 [john]
We have a similar system in the UK: http://www.gateway.gov.uk/
09:48:21 [josema]
[topic areas on starting flipchart: http://www.w3.org/2008/10/eGov_flipchart_start.jpg]
09:49:58 [josema]
[taking up 7. Identification and Authentication (G2C)]
09:50:11 [josema]
topic: discussion of big topic areas
09:50:26 [john]
issue that we have authentication systems for government interaction, but not for other web transactions
09:54:43 [josema]
[attendants to focus on discussion, scribing will be more summarized]
09:57:09 [josema]
[actions to show what is solved and what is not]
09:57:22 [josema]
[from the government point of view]
10:03:40 [josema]
RESOLVED: 7. Identification and Authentication (G2C) to capture how it's working right now and how the complex problems related to G2G data sharing work to deliver a seamless authentication experience to the citizen
10:03:46 [john]
different problems for businesses...
10:04:02 [OCR]
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10:05:19 [josema]
ACTION: martin to elaborate on what exists wrt 7. Identification and Authentication (G2C)
10:05:19 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-15 - Elaborate on what exists wrt 7. Identification and Authentication (G2C) [on Martin Mollema - due 2008-10-31].
10:06:07 [josema]
[taking up 8. Data Aggregation and Temporal Degradation (G2G)]
10:07:50 [josema]
[discussion on how the government guarantees the citizen how the data is stored and shared]
10:11:08 [josema]
[also about eVoting and some flaws in systems]
10:13:04 [john]
On electronic voting: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhMUtzOxjJY
10:13:30 [john]
titled "the American voting system HACKED"
10:13:53 [josema]
[eVoting as an example in this topic area]
10:17:39 [josema]
[there might be a need to build some systems thinking from the beginning in non-retrivable information]
10:22:56 [josema]
[should we divide into two and add temporal degradation to digital preservation?]
10:23:02 [josema]
[all agree]
10:25:17 [josema]
RESOLUTION: 7. Identification and Authentication (G2C) to capture how it's working right now and how the complex problems related to G2G data sharing work to deliver a seamless authentication experience to the citizen
10:26:55 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-egov-minutes.html josema
10:27:35 [josema]
scribeNick: josema
10:27:39 [josema]
scribe: josema
10:34:17 [josema]
RESOLUTION: move temporal degradation from 8. to 5. digital preservation
10:35:25 [josema]
[some discussion about rewriting story]
10:36:09 [josema]
[we need something about temporal change of data, different from degradation]
10:37:47 [josema]
RESOLUTION: add 12. Temporal Data: legislation/legal and geospatial
10:43:37 [josema]
ACTION beng to find use case on eVoting to illustrate 8. Data Aggregation
10:43:37 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - beng
10:43:45 [josema]
ACTION benjamin to find use case on eVoting to illustrate 8. Data Aggregation
10:43:45 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-16 - Find use case on eVoting to illustrate 8. Data Aggregation [on Benjamin Nguyen - due 2008-10-31].
10:49:47 [josema]
[some topic don't need much discussion now, since they were discussed yesterday and it's on the record]
10:50:15 [josema]
[in some cases we'll need to raise the issues and not show solutions yet]
10:52:12 [josema]
[need to find route for SEMIC.EU to provide 1. Semantic Interoperability]
10:54:12 [josema]
[some people in the Group are also interested in helping with this, but no present, ask in next call]
10:56:26 [josema]
[3 is quite related to 9]
10:59:36 [josema]
[for 9. and data mashups in general see http://www.w3.org/2007/eGov/IG/faq#q9]
11:04:23 [Vagner-br]
Vagner-br has left #egov
11:06:10 [josema]
[LUNCH]
11:54:28 [Rinke]
Rinke has joined #egov
12:01:06 [josema]
rrsagent, pointer?
12:01:06 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-egov-irc#T12-01-06
12:05:53 [darobin]
darobin has joined #egov
12:10:00 [OCR]
OCR has joined #egov
12:16:04 [john]
Before we resume, you might like to see: http://www.civilservicenetwork.com/news/article.html?tx_ttnews[tt_news]=56852&tx_ttnews[backPid]=20&cHash=21d372ab2a
12:19:40 [josema]
zakim, who's here
12:19:40 [Zakim]
josema, you need to end that query with '?'
12:19:44 [josema]
zakim, who's here?
12:19:44 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Esterel
12:19:45 [Zakim]
Esterel has oscar, john, renke, martin, beng, ralph, klaus
12:19:46 [Zakim]
On IRC I see OCR, darobin, Rinke, BeNg, mamol, john, RRSAgent, Zakim, josema, kjetil, trackbot
12:19:52 [josema]
renke left esterel
12:20:00 [josema]
zakim, renke left esterel
12:20:00 [Zakim]
-renke; got it
12:20:14 [josema]
zakim, ralph left esterel
12:20:14 [Zakim]
-ralph; got it
12:20:19 [josema]
zakim, klaus left esterel
12:20:19 [Zakim]
-klaus; got it
12:20:40 [josema]
zakim, esterel has karen
12:20:41 [Zakim]
+karen; got it
12:20:49 [josema]
zakim, who's here?
12:20:49 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Esterel
12:20:53 [Zakim]
Esterel has karen
12:20:55 [Zakim]
On IRC I see OCR, darobin, Rinke, BeNg, mamol, john, RRSAgent, Zakim, josema, kjetil, trackbot
12:22:06 [Vagner-br]
Vagner-br has joined #egov
12:23:17 [john]
perfect
12:23:36 [josema]
s/perfect//
12:31:52 [josema]
ACTION: jose to find route for SEMIC.EU to be engaged in the IG and provide cases for 1. Semantic Interoperability
12:31:52 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - jose
12:32:01 [josema]
ACTION: josema to find route for SEMIC.EU to be engaged in the IG and provide cases for 1. Semantic Interoperability
12:32:01 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - josema
12:33:32 [josema]
[ACTION was not recorded by trackbot, but by RRSAgent]
12:34:10 [josema]
ACTION: john to find use case to illustrate 2. Persistent URIs
12:34:10 [trackbot]
Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - john
12:34:10 [trackbot]
Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. jwonderl, jsherida)
12:34:20 [josema]
ACTION: jsherida to find use case to illustrate 2. Persistent URIs
12:34:20 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-17 - Find use case to illustrate 2. Persistent URIs [on John Sheridan - due 2008-10-31].
12:35:19 [josema]
ACTION oscar to find use case for number 9. your web site is your API
12:35:19 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-18 - Find use case for number 9. your web site is your API [on Oscar Azanon Esteire - due 2008-10-31].
12:35:25 [josema]
ACTION martin to find use case for number 9. your web site is your API
12:35:25 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-19 - Find use case for number 9. your web site is your API [on Martin Mollema - due 2008-10-31].
12:35:40 [josema]
ACTION john to help with use case for number 9. your web site is your API
12:35:40 [trackbot]
Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - john
12:35:40 [trackbot]
Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. jwonderl, jsherida)
12:35:47 [josema]
ACTION jsherida to help with use case for number 9. your web site is your API
12:35:47 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-20 - Help with use case for number 9. your web site is your API [on John Sheridan - due 2008-10-31].
12:36:31 [josema]
[no ACTION yet for 2. Data Sharing Policy Expression]
12:36:56 [josema]
s/2./4.
12:38:24 [josema]
ACTION: john to find people within the organization to build use case to illustrate 5. Digital Preservation + Authenticity + Temporal Degradation
12:38:24 [trackbot]
Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - john
12:38:24 [trackbot]
Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. jwonderl, jsherida)
12:38:35 [josema]
ACTION: jsherida to find people within the organization to build use case to illustrate 5. Digital Preservation + Authenticity + Temporal Degradation
12:38:35 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-21 - Find people within the organization to build use case to illustrate 5. Digital Preservation + Authenticity + Temporal Degradation [on John Sheridan - due 2008-10-31].
12:41:35 [josema]
ACTION: unassigned to find use case on 6. I.P. Expression unassigned
12:41:39 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-22 - Find use case on 6. I.P. Expression unassigned [on Unassigned - due 2008-10-31].
12:41:52 [josema]
s/[no ACTION yet for 2. Data Sharing Policy Expression]//
12:42:07 [josema]
ACTION: unassigned to [no ACTION yet for 2. Data Sharing Policy Expression]
12:42:08 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-23 - [no ACTION yet for 2. Data Sharing Policy Expression] [on Unassigned - due 2008-10-31].
12:42:22 [Karen]
Karen has joined #egov
12:44:46 [josema]
[should we use the TF structure?]
12:46:12 [mamol]
mamol has joined #egov
12:46:34 [josema]
ACTION: oscar to Elaborate on what exists wrt 7. Identification and Authentication (G2C)
12:46:34 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-24 - Elaborate on what exists wrt 7. Identification and Authentication (G2C) [on Oscar Azanon Esteire - due 2008-10-31].
12:49:35 [mamol]
test
12:50:00 [john]
On RDFa you may like to see: http://www.talis.com/nodalities/ and check out the article "Call to arms"
12:50:36 [josema]
ACTION: unassigned to 10. What Data? How does the Government Decide
12:50:36 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-25 - 10. What Data? How does the Government Decide [on Unassigned - due 2008-10-31].
12:51:48 [mamol]
Martin has contacted IDABC to check whether RDFA might be a useful addition to the research currently undertaken on Open Document Exchange Formats, which primarily focused on comparison of ODF and OOXML
12:52:03 [josema]
ACTION: unassigned to 11. Participation in Social Media (what are the rules?)
12:52:03 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-26 - 11. Participation in Social Media (what are the rules?) [on Unassigned - due 2008-10-31].
12:53:11 [josema]
ACTION: benjamin to work on 12. Temporal Data: legislation/legal and geospatial
12:53:12 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-27 - Work on 12. Temporal Data: legislation/legal and geospatial [on Benjamin Nguyen - due 2008-10-31].
12:53:21 [josema]
ACTION: jsherida to work on 12. Temporal Data: legislation/legal and geospatial
12:53:21 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-28 - Work on 12. Temporal Data: legislation/legal and geospatial [on John Sheridan - due 2008-10-31].
12:53:26 [john]
UK Gov guidelines on participation on social media: http://www.civilservice.gov.uk/iam/codes/social_media/participation.asp
12:54:05 [josema]
topic: your Web site is your API
12:54:49 [josema]
[more discussion on 9, 10 and 11]
12:55:14 [Owen]
Owen has joined #egov
12:56:11 [john]
We talked about fixmystreet: http://www.fixmystreet.com/
12:56:30 [josema]
rrsagent, pointer?
12:56:30 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-egov-irc#T12-56-30
12:56:33 [john]
as an example NGO in this area
12:56:40 [josema]
rrsagent, draft minutes
12:56:40 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-egov-minutes.html josema
12:56:42 [Zakim]
+owen
12:57:22 [josema]
zakim, who's here?
12:57:22 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Esterel, owen
12:57:23 [Zakim]
Esterel has karen
12:57:25 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Owen, mamol, Karen, Vagner-br, OCR, darobin, Rinke, BeNg, john, RRSAgent, Zakim, josema, kjetil, trackbot
12:57:42 [josema]
esterel has also jose, oscar, john, benjamin, martin
12:57:54 [josema]
s/esterel has also jose, oscar, john, benjamin, martin//
12:57:56 [josema]
zakim, esterel has also jose, oscar, john, benjamin, martin
12:57:56 [Zakim]
+also, jose, oscar, john, benjamin, martin; got it
12:58:43 [Owen]
Yes but some speakers are clearer than others.
12:59:46 [Owen]
I like the discussion that is taking place now about performance metrics.
13:01:48 [josema]
oscar: this is about the capacity the government has to put the information
13:02:11 [josema]
... available to *everybody*, difficult to say if it's G2C, G2B...
13:02:27 [josema]
... lots of implications, too (eg. DRM, IPR...)
13:02:59 [josema]
[john mentioned RDFa as an example of the way to go]
13:04:55 [josema]
[john reminds the Group of the UK eHealth case and the two sites "serving" it]
13:05:20 [josema]
s/it/health-related info
13:07:18 [Owen]
Thanks, Jose. I see the 11 proposed use cases.
13:09:32 [josema]
[oscar on also implications about prioritization]
13:10:07 [john]
We mentioned patient opinion: http://www.patientopinion.org.uk/
13:10:40 [josema]
[martin shows a case in NL]
13:11:21 [BeNg]
URL is http://www.webrichtlijnen.nl/english/
13:11:44 [Owen]
Jose, it is good to see that some folks have volunteered to do some work on some of the use cases.
13:11:54 [josema]
yep!
13:13:51 [josema]
[on government Web guidelines testing]
13:18:59 [Owen]
With reference to Action 25, in the U.S. the EFOIA Amendments require agencies to make available any records that are requested by anyone and likely to be of interest to three or more citizens. It also requires agencies to take reasonable steps to make information available in whatever form it is requested, e.g., XML.
13:19:04 [josema]
[usually testing 20 pages/site, 16 government sites?]
13:21:06 [josema]
ACTION-25 n the U.S. the EFOIA Amendments require agencies to make available any records that are requested by anyone and likely to be of interest to three or more citizens. It also requires agencies to take reasonable steps to make information available in whatever form it is requested, e.g., XML. (by Owen)
13:21:52 [josema]
trackbot, comment ACTION-25 n the U.S. the EFOIA Amendments require agencies to make available any records that are requested by anyone and likely to be of interest to three or more citizens. It also requires agencies to take reasonable steps to make information available in whatever form it is requested, e.g., XML. (by Owen)
13:21:52 [trackbot]
ACTION-25 10. What Data? How does the Government Decide notes added
13:22:49 [josema]
I may remind you of the slides I used on Wed. with my other hat on: http://www.w3.org/2008/10/TPAC/CMS_CTIC/
13:23:40 [josema]
[oscar on artificially created rankings to "sell" the solution]
13:24:07 [Owen]
The EFOIA amendments are in bold text at http://www.usdoj.gov/oip/foia_updates/Vol_XVII_4/page2.htm
13:25:14 [josema]
trackbot, comment ACTION-25 EFOIA amendments are in bold text at http://www.usdoj.gov/oip/foia_updates/Vol_XVII_4/page2.htm (by Owen)
13:25:14 [trackbot]
ACTION-25 10. What Data? How does the Government Decide notes added
13:26:11 [josema]
[martin on the potential of showing errors to governments using tools like this]
13:26:52 [josema]
q+ to talk about rankings/tools and point 9.
13:27:30 [john]
ack josema
13:27:30 [Zakim]
josema, you wanted to talk about rankings/tools and point 9.
13:27:34 [mamol]
the test on the quality of websites http://www.webrichtlijnen.nl/english/test/
13:28:32 [mamol]
The normative document with the rationale behind the webguidelines: http://www.drempelvrij.nl/media/20070720%20-%20Normative_document_Webguidelines_1_0.pdf
13:30:25 [Karen]
q+
13:30:49 [josema]
ack k
13:31:43 [josema]
[jose on finger pointing is not that good]
13:33:02 [josema]
karen: from Comm POV, I'd use blogs, abstracts for conferences and give presentations
13:33:09 [josema]
... voice opinion of the Group there
13:33:44 [josema]
... I'll look at opportunities and find matches for you but need content
13:34:04 [josema]
oscar: we are right now discussing on audience, format, etc.
13:34:38 [Owen]
With reference to Use Case 3, section 202(b)(1) of the eGov Act requires U.S federal agencies to "develop performance measures that demonstrate how electronic government enables progress toward agency objectives, strategic goals, and statutory mandates." http://xml.gov/documents/completed/eGovXML.htm#202
13:35:07 [josema]
john: for after the break, we'll go through the two points left
13:35:30 [josema]
... 10. What Data? and 11. Participation in Social Media
13:35:38 [josema]
s/for//
13:36:28 [josema]
[]BREAK
13:36:45 [josema]
s/[]BREAK/[BREAK]
13:39:31 [josema]
ACTION: jsherida to work on 3. Performance Data and Citizen Choice
13:39:31 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-29 - Work on 3. Performance Data and Citizen Choice [on John Sheridan - due 2008-10-31].
13:42:41 [Zakim]
-owen
13:44:49 [Owen]
How long is the break and how long do you plan to continue after the break?
13:51:27 [mamol]
mamol has joined #egov
14:06:17 [josema]
[BACK FROM BREAK]
14:06:30 [josema]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:06:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-egov-minutes.html josema
14:07:34 [josema]
[taking on 10. What Data?]
14:11:36 [Zakim]
+owen
14:11:37 [Zakim]
-owen
14:11:37 [Zakim]
+owen
14:13:17 [josema]
[john on ways/cost of putting PSI assets online]
14:13:31 [josema]
oscar: what is the cost of not putting it?
14:13:56 [josema]
martin: some aspects are in laws and gov orgs need to fulfill them
14:14:05 [josema]
john: agree, it's very common
14:14:52 [josema]
... what it really interests me if what is value added of doing this
14:15:06 [josema]
zakim, who's here?
14:15:06 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Esterel, owen
14:15:07 [Zakim]
Esterel has also, jose, oscar, john, benjamin, martin
14:15:09 [Zakim]
On IRC I see mamol, Owen, Karen, OCR, darobin, john, RRSAgent, Zakim, josema, kjetil, trackbot
14:15:19 [josema]
zakim, benjamin left esterel
14:15:19 [Zakim]
-benjamin; got it
14:16:52 [josema]
... how to surface information that are deeply hidden and it's of value
14:17:14 [OAmbur]
OAmbur has joined #egov
14:17:19 [josema]
oscar: how can you be sure it's used in the right way?
14:17:49 [Rinke]
Rinke has joined #egov
14:18:00 [josema]
john: also, if you do it, how much it does get reused
14:19:50 [josema]
martin: looking at it from a legacy POV, I think you could find many areas
14:20:06 [josema]
... where the gov info is made available for a fee, and it has to do with the publication process
14:20:23 [josema]
... the decision once made to charge for it may now be reconsidered
14:21:21 [josema]
john: can we articulate the case for serendipitous reuse by the government?
14:21:54 [Owen]
The folks at Princeton have argued that access to .gov info should be less about "publishing" it and more about making the raw data itself available in readily shareable format.
14:21:59 [josema]
oscar: we need to find examples, one step at a time, and it's important to get out the message
14:23:15 [josema]
martin: if you try to create it SW-based and you find a situation where you are not in control
14:23:28 [josema]
... you might find yourself in a vendor-locking situation
14:23:41 [josema]
... eg. data you store in a social media site
14:23:42 [Owen]
In the U.S. the Federal Records Act requires agencies to make and keep records and the E-FOIA Amendments require them, within reason, to make those records available in whatever format requested.
14:24:08 [john]
q?
14:24:12 [josema]
requested by whom? a citizen? a government agency? anybody?
14:24:32 [Owen]
SOA is a grossly overused term, but if it means anything, it means making data available in readily shareable format.
14:25:29 [Owen]
There is no need to make this issue complicated. The upshot is that all public information should be made available in readily shareable format.
14:26:42 [Owen]
The issue is how best to measure and report to citicens how well or poorly their governments are sharing the public information with which they are entrusted.
14:30:18 [josema]
jose: we should mention that is good to publish in open raw formats
14:30:32 [josema]
... but also note the concerns that can arise and should be take into consideration
14:30:39 [josema]
john: it's really hard to make the policy case
14:31:47 [Owen]
Jose, I'm going to need to sign off shortly. I'll look forward to finding other opportunities to contribute to the IG's outputs in the future. As previously expressed, I find F2F meetings very frustrating. I hope this one proves to be more productive than most of those in which I've been involved.
14:31:58 [Zakim]
-owen
14:32:11 [john]
Thanks for your participation Owen
14:32:42 [josema]
zakim, who's here?
14:32:42 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Esterel
14:32:43 [Zakim]
Esterel has also, jose, oscar, john, martin
14:32:44 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Rinke, mamol, Karen, OCR, darobin, john, RRSAgent, Zakim, josema, kjetil, trackbot
14:32:56 [Karen]
q+
14:33:07 [john]
ack Karen
14:33:15 [josema]
jose: we can use existing cases from the outside
14:33:52 [josema]
karen: your discussion reminds me of one I had on Health Care and the creation of an ecosystem
14:36:52 [josema]
[oscar brainstorming using flipchart]
14:37:38 [john]
Is this helpful? http://powerofinformation.wordpress.com/2008/06/19/more-architecture/
14:52:23 [josema]
q?
14:53:08 [josema]
[on Linked Data to show the way here? we would need to "redraw" the cloud in government terms]
15:00:13 [josema]
ACTION: josema to talk to the DBPedia people/Ivan Herman about using the Linked Data/DBPedia approach for 10.
15:00:13 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - josema
15:01:15 [josema]
[sighhh... RECORD action later in trackbot]
15:01:40 [josema]
[taken up 11. Participation in Social Media]
15:16:18 [john]
john has joined #eGov
15:17:47 [josema]
[discussion about different approaches in several countries]
15:18:32 [josema]
the NZ blogging policy: http://yes2privacy.wordpress.com/2008/03/15/blogging-civil-serf-and-pseudonymity/
15:19:45 [josema]
the UK Participation online guidance: http://www.civilservice.gov.uk/iam/codes/social_media/participation.asp
15:20:37 [josema]
[about the benefits vs. the risks and how the risks should be identified and addressed, but shouldn't prevent the government of using it]
15:21:02 [josema]
s/of/from
15:23:21 [Karen]
http://www.w3.org/2008/09/msnws/
15:24:00 [josema]
[let's try to send a position paper to the workshop]
15:24:30 [josema]
zakim, drop esterel
15:24:30 [Zakim]
Esterel is being disconnected
15:24:32 [Zakim]
T&S_EGOV()3:00AM has ended
15:24:33 [Zakim]
Attendees were trond, oscar, john, renke, martin, beng, ralph, klaus, karen, owen, also, jose, benjamin
15:25:04 [josema]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:25:04 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-egov-minutes.html josema
15:25:24 [mamol]
quit
15:25:38 [josema]
s/quit//
15:27:47 [josema]
http://www.w3.org/2008/Talks/0604-Brazil-JA/Slides#(10)
15:28:06 [Karen]
q+
15:28:19 [josema]
ack k
15:28:31 [mamol]
mamol has joined #egov
15:28:37 [josema]
[on LAFD Twitter]
15:29:16 [josema]
karen: you might want to run a survey to prioritize your list of topics
15:29:27 [josema]
... and publicize it in different ways
15:30:39 [josema]
ACTION: jsherida to draft position paper for W3C Workshop on future of social networking
15:30:39 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-30 - Draft position paper for W3C Workshop on future of social networking [on John Sheridan - due 2008-10-31].
15:30:58 [josema]
ACTION: oscar, martin, josema to draft position paper for W3C Workshop on future of social networking
15:30:58 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - oscar,
15:32:20 [josema]
ACTION: martin, josema to draft position paper for W3C Workshop on future of social networking
15:32:20 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - martin,
15:33:18 [josema]
arghhhhhhhhh..........
15:33:47 [josema]
[josema to REVIEW all actions, find duplicates, RRSagent/trackbot]
15:36:52 [josema]
topic: level of detail, roadmap, plan
15:37:12 [josema]
jose: which level of detail? should we just compile the use cases? address issues?
15:37:37 [josema]
martin: pragmatic approach, focus on use cases and act as channel Govs<->W3C Groups
15:38:50 [josema]
john: I would prefer a narrower time frame, maybe taking contributions until end November
15:39:01 [josema]
... publish first WD before Christmas
15:41:05 [josema]
john: review of existing use cases proposals in the wiki is not done yet
15:41:21 [josema]
... but they are more technical than our topic areas here
15:41:52 [josema]
... we've been focus on the corpus of the material we should create as Group
15:42:01 [josema]
... than to go in depth
15:51:22 [josema]
[topic areas assigned to TFs in flip chart]
15:55:49 [josema]
http://www.w3.org/2008/10/eGov_flipchart_final.jpg
15:55:54 [josema]
[ADJOURNED]
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15:56:09 [josema]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:56:09 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/24-egov-minutes.html josema
15:56:21 [josema]
zakim, bye
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15:57:50 [mamol]
bye
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