06:56:33 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #xhtml
06:56:33 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-xhtml-irc
06:57:36 <rmerric> rmerric has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2008-10-FtF-Agenda#Thursday:_2008-10-23
06:57:45 <rmerric> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/xhtml2/wiki/2008-10-FtF-Agenda#Thursday:_2008-10-23
06:58:12 <unl> unl has joined #xhtml
06:58:19 <Steven> Steven has joined #xhtml
06:58:31 <oeddie> rrsagent, set logs world-visible
06:58:41 <oeddie> chair: Roland_Merrick
06:59:00 <oeddie> scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
06:59:07 <oeddie> ScribeNick: oeddie
06:59:12 <Steven> zakim, code?
06:59:12 <Zakim> sorry, Steven, I don't know what conference this is
06:59:23 <Steven> zakim, this will be xhtml
06:59:23 <Zakim> ok, Steven; I see IA_XHTML2()3:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute
06:59:30 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #xhtml
06:59:33 <Steven> rrsagent, pointer?
06:59:33 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-xhtml-irc#T06-59-33
06:59:55 <oeddie> rrsagent, make minutes
06:59:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-xhtml-minutes.html oeddie
07:00:00 <ShaneM> zakim, code?
07:00:00 <Zakim> the conference code is 94865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), ShaneM
07:00:32 <Steven> changed your nick Gregorie?
07:00:40 <Steven> s/ie/y/
07:00:42 <oeddie> i'm on my laptop
07:00:51 <Roland_> Roland_ has joined #xhtml
07:01:18 <oeddie> on my main machine i'm oedipus, on my laptop, oeddie, and sometimes on my linux box, i'm gregor_samsa
07:01:37 <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()3:00AM has now started
07:01:38 <oeddie> Previous: http://www.w3.org/2008/10/15-xhtml-minutes.html
07:01:38 <Zakim> +Cannes
07:02:22 <Zakim> +ShaneM
07:02:22 <Zakim> -ShaneM
07:02:23 <Zakim> +ShaneM
07:03:13 <Steven> Scribe: Steven
07:03:13 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita
07:03:38 <oeddie> regrets: Tina
07:03:45 <oeddie> regrets: Alessio
07:03:58 <oeddie> regrets+ Tina
07:03:58 <Steven> regrets+Tina
07:04:03 <Steven> :-)
07:05:51 <Roland_> rrsagent, make minutes
07:05:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-xhtml-minutes.html Roland_
07:07:23 <Roland_> Meeting: XHTML Working Group face2face
07:08:13 <oeddie> TOPIC: Intos
07:08:27 <oeddie> RM: Roland Merrick, chair, work for IBM
07:08:53 <oeddie> JG: Jeff Gerald, observer
07:08:58 <Steven> Present: Roland, Uli, Klaus, Alan Hauser, Gerald Edger, Nick vd Bleeker, Steven
07:09:09 <Steven> Present+Shane, Gregory
07:09:17 <oeddie> SP: work for CWI/W3C, co-chair of this group and staff contact for many others
07:09:29 <oeddie> NVB: observer, member of Forms WG
07:09:34 <klaus> klaus has joined #xhtml
07:09:46 <Steven> s/Gerald Edger/Jeff Gerald
07:09:53 <oeddie> rrsagent, make minutes
07:09:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-xhtml-minutes.html oeddie
07:10:06 <oeddie> TOPIC: Agenda Review
07:11:06 <Steven> Scribenick: oeddie
07:11:12 <oeddie> RM: bunch of docs to reveiw to ensure ready for CR -- spend as long as it takes to get them to final stage
07:11:33 <oeddie> RM: old actions in agenda -- go through and clean out and migrate to trackbot those that need further consideration
07:12:08 <oeddie> RM: this afternoon: script: feature, what it means to refer to a feature
07:12:43 <oeddie> SP: good session at TPAC yesterday on this topic; TBL proposed standard way to record in namespace document which javascript implements this namespace so wouldn't need script line in doc source
07:12:58 <oeddie> RM: XHTML 1.2 discussion - what makes the cut into that
07:13:07 <nick> nick has joined #xhtml
07:13:44 <oeddie> RM: tomorrow: close off Forms issues ; moving forward on XHTMLMime document, how to get XHTML to work in UAs not optimized for XHTML, then get back to XHTML2 - what to do with it
07:13:59 <oeddie> TOPIC: Documents Prepared for CR
07:14:10 <oeddie> RM: Shane did a very good job upsating them all
07:15:11 <oeddie> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Drafts/
07:15:16 <oeddie> SM: start with CURIEs
07:15:32 <Steven> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Oct/0024.html
07:15:38 <oeddie> CURIEs latest draft (18 october 2008) - http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-curie-20081018
07:15:39 <Roland_> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-curie-20081018/
07:16:30 <oeddie> SM: this draft, along with Access and Role Modules, say in prose they are CR - they are not, but used CSS to mark that; 
07:16:43 <oeddie> SM: received number of comments over past year from variety of sources
07:17:40 <oeddie> RM: LC in May -- received some comments, extended period for TAG; received formal comments from TAG, replied, have not formally stated they are satisfiedwith what we did --- TAG meeting now, hopefully on their agenda
07:18:05 <oeddie> SM: couple of issues in CURIE annotaed with 4 @ signs:
07:18:48 <oeddie> SM: namespace specifications and jeremy's request for prefix; my opinion is that it is not needed or necessary
07:19:28 <oeddie> SP: not prefix for CURIEs, but use XMLNS to define; if lang uses diff prefix mechanism, ok to use on that start with x m l, but good thing to warn off people from using this
07:20:15 <oeddie> SM: question for group - questions or concerns about what SP just read
07:22:04 <oeddie> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-curie-20081018/#s_syntax
07:22:48 <oeddie> quote from 18 October draft: "When CURIES are used in an XML-based host language, and that host language supports XML Namespaces, prefix values MUST be able to be defined using the 'xmlns:' syntax specified in [XMLNAMES]. Such host languages MAY also provide additional prefix mapping definition mechanisms.
07:22:48 <oeddie> @@@@The XML Namespaces specification states that prefix names are not permitted to begin with the characters 'xml' (see Leading XML). While this specification does not impose such a restriction, when CURIEs are used in an XML language this restriction is effectively inherited from XML Namespaces. If such a language defines an additional mechanism for defining prefixes, that mechanism SHOULD impose a similar restriction so there is no possibility of conflict betw
07:22:49 <oeddie> When CURIES are used in a non-XML host language, the host language MUST provide a mechanism for defining the mapping from the prefix to an IRI.
07:22:52 <oeddie> A host language MAY interpret a reference value that is not preceded by a prefix and a colon as being a member of a host-language defined set of reserved values. Such reserved values MUST translate into an IRI, just as with any other CURIE.
07:22:56 <oeddie> A host language MAY declare a default prefix value, or MAY provide a mechanism for defining a default prefix value. This default prefix value MAY be different than the language's default namespace. In such a host language, when the prefix is omitted from a CURIE, the default prefix value MUST be used. Conversely, if such a language does not define a default prefix value mechanism and does not define a set of reserved values, CURIEs MUST NOT be used without a lea
07:23:40 <nic1> nic1 has joined #xhtml
07:23:41 <oeddie> RM: sounds reasonable to me
07:23:46 <oeddie> SP: me too, gets message over
07:23:49 <oeddie> GJR: plus 1
07:24:03 <oeddie> SM: next is also in this section "Syntax"
07:24:09 <oeddie> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-curie-20081018/#s_syntax
07:24:30 <oeddie> SP: reads from draft
07:24:45 <oeddie> SM: only added because continuing source of confusion for intelligent people
07:25:10 <oeddie> SP: should not be used as default namespace for curies, because default namespace...
07:25:14 <oeddie> SM: good addition
07:25:24 <oeddie> SM: should note be in separate paragraph
07:25:41 <oeddie> SP: separate, and change SHOULD NOT to MUST NOT
07:25:48 <oeddie> SM: in which case it is not a note
07:25:57 <oeddie> GJR: fine by me too  - plus 1
07:26:12 <oeddie> SM: "MUST NOT used as default..."
07:26:49 <oeddie> SM: those who like low-level specs as flexible as possible may not like this
07:27:29 <oeddie> RM: SHOULD NOT suggests may do anyway
07:27:41 <oeddie> GJR: SHOULD NOT allows if "compelling reason"
07:27:59 <oeddie> RM: allowed an opt-out to do what can no longer do
07:28:19 <oeddie> SM: stopped people using xml default namespace as CURIE default prefix, which i like
07:28:42 <oeddie> GJR: agree that should be -- er, must be -- a MUST NOT
07:29:12 <oeddie> SM: no compelling usecase for using default ns - all using xmlns for is to associate prefix string with IRI prefix
07:29:20 <oeddie> SM: good suggestion Steven
07:29:33 <oeddie> SP: no mechanism for defining default prefix - comes from language
07:30:15 <oeddie> SM: allow default prefix, so possible to have 2 prefixes; could have default prefix implied by CURIE with NO colon at all, and a defaullt prefix when there is a colon
07:30:22 <oeddie> SP: default prefix and empty prefix
07:30:28 <oeddie> SM: yes; reserved values conceopt
07:30:49 <oeddie> SP: declare by fiat in XML, but don't give opportunity to change
07:30:55 <oeddie> SM: host language may do it
07:31:15 <oeddie> SP: but this spec doesn't provide mechanisms for doing it; no mechanism for empty or default 
07:31:34 <oeddie> SM: proposal from RDFa proposes changing prefix  on fly -- good idea in their case
07:32:07 <oeddie> SP: if they are proposing method of changing default on fly, what is argument against using xmlns mechanism for doing that
07:32:26 <oeddie> RM: trying to stop confusion and work arounds
07:33:01 <oeddie> SM: namespace of xml elements and attributes has nothing to do with prefix or default prefix associated with CURIEs in document; coupling them can't be a good idea
07:33:16 <oeddie> RM: prefixed and unprifixed -- unprefixed means?
07:33:30 <oeddie> SM: i have to fix that - should use term "reserved value"
07:33:42 <oeddie> SM: would also make consistent with RDFa
07:33:49 <oeddie> RM: that was at back of my mind 
07:33:59 <oeddie> rrsagent, make minutes
07:33:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-xhtml-minutes.html oeddie
07:34:13 <oeddie> RM: are we satisfied with our new statement?
07:34:18 <oeddie> SM: plus 1
07:34:20 <oeddie> GJR: plus 1
07:34:29 <oeddie> RM: disagree?
07:34:48 <oeddie> (no disagreement logged)
07:34:54 <oeddie> SP: only 2 diff bits of text
07:35:01 <oeddie> SM: yes, have to discuss exit criteria
07:35:41 <oeddie> SP: basically have implementations in RDFa, so just cound number of implementations that RDFa used to get through CR; find 2 interoperable implementations and cite them
07:35:55 <oeddie> RM: just want to make sure that everything talk about in CURIEs is used in RDFa
07:36:08 <oeddie> SM: believe every feature in here is used by RDFa
07:36:37 <oeddie> RM: still want 2 interop implementations of each feature; have confidence can achieve because of RDFa implementations
07:37:02 <oeddie> SM: test suite for RDFa could be adapted for CURIE test suite
07:37:08 <Steven> http://rdfa.digitalbazaar.com/rdfa-test-harness/
07:37:19 <oeddie> SP: can't we point to that and say this is the test suite for CURIEs as well
07:37:32 <oeddie> SM: building block - doesn't don anything on its own
07:37:55 <oeddie> SM: Roland, datatype we defined not used in RDFa -- 
07:38:10 <oeddie> SP: if click on details of example 64
07:38:33 <oeddie> SM: think safe to leave - hybrid datatype - so i don't think is a big deal/obstacle
07:39:31 <oeddie> SM: where might run into trouble is old issue of value space versus lexical space will continue to come up and problem may be that people who raise issue speak diff laguage than we do; talking past each other; we don't understand problem and they can't understand why we do't understand
07:39:47 <oeddie> SM: removed "lexical space" and "value space" from document at advice of TAG
07:40:04 <oeddie> SP: ok
07:40:26 <oeddie> SP: then don't have to test, although test 64 of RDFa test harness does do that
07:40:49 <oeddie> RM: RDfa doesn't use safe_CURIEs
07:41:06 <oeddie> SP: rel is allowed to be list of CURIEs -- is there a test that has a list of CURIEs?
07:41:25 <oeddie> SM: yes, there is - not sure test of rel that combines use of reserved values and things that use colons
07:42:03 <oeddie> SP: write down what we need to test in what combinations and compare to RDFa harness
07:42:27 <oeddie> RM: could test against RDFa - if don't support feature we've added have to go elsewhere or create own
07:42:30 <oeddie> RM: Role?
07:42:40 <oeddie> SM: list of CURIEs not safe_CURIEs
07:42:45 <oeddie> SP: rel?
07:42:54 <oeddie> SM: doesn't use safe_CURIEs
07:43:02 <oeddie> SP: why in test harness
07:43:12 <oeddie> SM: probably to fail
07:43:41 <oeddie> SP: test 65 title is wrong - has a resource with safe_CURIE, but no rel with safe_CURIE
07:44:20 <oeddie> SP: all safe_CURIEs they test are blank mode -- not testing real safe_CURIEs in realistic manner
07:44:48 <oeddie> SP: test: regular CURIE, safe_CURIE, reserved word CURIE and empty prefixes
07:45:11 <oeddie> SP: and a bnote CURIE
07:45:19 <ShaneM> s/bnote/bnode/
07:45:21 <oeddie> SP: combinations of those, too
07:46:08 <oeddie> SP: 4 cases: bnode, reserved word CURIE, empty prefix CURIE, regurla CURE and safe_CURIE - 16 combinations in all 
07:46:17 <oeddie> RM: Role will cover some of those
07:47:27 <oeddie> SM: hang on - would be sufficient to test CURIEs in context of RDFa; if can get away without fostering bi-directional ??? to get CURIEs through process
07:47:32 <oeddie> RM: 16 items in test pile
07:47:58 <Steven> The 16 combinations are the 4 basic curies, then safe versions of them, and then lists of all those
07:48:00 <oeddie> SM: proposal: why don't i take the action to work with the RDFa test people to expand collection to cover these 16 variations
07:48:23 <oeddie> SM: they are open to that; plus all RDFa implementors are watching and can double-check what we are doing
07:48:36 <oeddie> SP: problem with list of safe_CURIEs
07:49:05 <oeddie> RM: still need matrix of things need to be tested; hope don't need to write own test suite - identify holes in existing test harnesses
07:49:26 <oeddie> RM: also need interoperable implemenations of all of those tests
07:49:53 <oeddie> SP: interoperability likely to be done  -- at least 6 implementations of RDFa
07:49:59 <ShaneM> the datatypes not covered in RDFa are URIorSafeCURIEs, SafeCURIE, and SafeCURIEs
07:50:21 <oeddie> SP: 9 implementations of RDFa in test reqport
07:50:34 <oeddie> SM: is operator in there?
07:50:36 <oeddie> SP: yes
07:50:51 <oeddie> SP: check to see if any failed  CURIE test
07:52:08 <oeddie> rrsagent, draft minutes
07:52:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-xhtml-minutes.html oeddie
07:52:56 <oeddie> SP: none of the CURIE test fail
07:53:11 <oeddie> SM: none fail in reality - have to validate some by eye, but almost everyone passes
07:53:18 <oeddie> SP: even XML Literal test?
07:53:33 <oeddie> SM: SPARQL engine evaluating it incorrectly
07:53:46 <oeddie> SP: is the test suite right only for Michael who created it?
07:54:10 <oeddie> SM: whole harness is open source and available -- emailing michael right now that i'm going to id more tests
07:54:19 <oeddie> SP: mention test 65 has wrong title, please
07:54:40 <oeddie> RM: what else is needed?
07:54:51 <oeddie> SP: 2 interoperable implementations of all features
07:55:06 <oeddie> RESOVLED: Send CURIE to CR
07:55:12 <oeddie> rrsagent, make minutes
07:55:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-xhtml-minutes.html oeddie
07:55:37 <oeddie> RESOLVED: Send CURIE to CR
07:55:42 <oeddie> rrsagent, make minutes
07:55:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-xhtml-minutes.html oeddie
07:58:40 <oeddie> SP: talking to people yesterday after giving last talk of day essentially about RDFa - some people suggested if could do RDFa stylesheet as well - external RDFa resource
07:58:45 <oeddie> SM: what would that mean?
07:59:18 <oeddie> SP: decorating DOM with RDFa attributes, but not having RDFa in documents itself; use selectors to add the necessary properties
08:00:04 <oeddie> SP: RDFa has to decorate every single node in ShowShow, but if have RDFa sheet (this has class of XX or id of YY) should do this
08:00:09 <oeddie> SM: ShowShow?
08:00:12 <unl> XOXO
08:00:50 <unl> http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo
08:00:58 <oeddie> SP: microformat -- all sorts of implied meaning that get inherited because at top of tree marked as XOXO document; RDFa doesn't propagate  down notes
08:01:10 <oeddie> s/ShowShow/XOXO/G
08:02:28 <oeddie> SP: like to represent family tree as nested lists (UL or OL) -- if want to add relationships to that in RDFa, on every node, ahve to say this node is child of parent element; adding loads of identical info at each LI -- would like to say if find UL class="expanded-tree" propogate RDFa
08:03:13 <oeddie> SM: started work on something like that on different problem; defining mechanisms for following nodes
08:03:43 <oeddie> SM: use proflie mechanism and defining rules to help RDFa processors to evaluate in profile -- brining extra intro into content of document
08:04:05 <oeddie> SP: RDFa in external RDF document
08:04:06 <ShaneM> http://www.rdfa.info/wiki/RDFa_Profiles
08:05:04 <oeddie> SM: Mark, Manu and some others working on this; interesting idea that dovetails nicely
08:05:21 <oeddie> GJR: working on similar concept for reuse of ABBR, ACRONYM, and DFN etc.
08:06:12 <oeddie> SP: Harry Halpen been sending posts to RDFa list - came up to me and said that we ought to go th HTML5 meeting this afternoon and talke about getting RDFa into HTML5
08:07:24 <oeddie> GJR: @profile stilll under negotiation
08:07:37 <oeddie> SP: rel=profile works beeter tan @profile
08:08:18 <oeddie> SP: loss of rev is a bigger problem; but if in DOM, shouldn't care at all; remaining question is: if attribute is in markup, does it end up in DOM; i think it has to, otherwise break dojo
08:08:24 <oeddie> GJR: yes would break dojo
08:08:34 <oeddie> SP: as long as stays in DOM, don't have leg to stand on
08:10:19 <oeddie> SP: HTML5 has bad validation story, but we are in position to say "this is valid" because provide schemas (validate this markup against this schema); can validate, browsers don't choke, as long as stuff ends up in DOM, we've all won
08:10:39 <oeddie> SP: if browsers not going to implement stuff, then will be done with javascript
08:11:17 <oeddie> SP: we provide language, HTML5 UA ignores what doesn'tknow about, but still gets into DOM, so can be extracted
08:11:44 <oeddie> SP: they say we chuck stuff away and don't do anything with it, but since appears in DOM, can be used
08:12:40 <oeddie> SM: ensuring Semantic Web is first class citizen is only tangible deliverable W3C has this decade
08:13:14 <oeddie> SM: behooves W3C to ensure that HTML5 accept RDFa
08:13:48 <oeddie> SP: don't think RDFa under threat if HTML5 ignores
08:14:12 <oeddie> q?
08:14:22 <oeddie> zakim, who is here?
08:14:22 <Zakim> On the phone I see Cannes, ShaneM, Gregory_Rosmaita
08:14:23 <Zakim> On IRC I see nic1, klaus, Roland_, ShaneM, Steven, unl, RRSAgent, Zakim, oeddie, trackbot
08:14:35 <oeddie> TOPIC: Role Module
08:14:52 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtml-role-20081018/
08:14:52 <oeddie> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtml-role-20081018
08:15:45 <oeddie> SM: no outstanding issues; no @ signs in document; diff marks from LC working draft interesting thing to look at -- no changes, save schema is normative now
08:15:46 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtml-role-20081018/xhtml-role-diff.html
08:16:05 <oeddie> SM: very thin specificiation
08:16:17 <oeddie> SM: Roland raised issue of conformance testing for CR
08:17:01 <oeddie> GJR: role examples in ARIA test suites could be leveraged
08:17:05 <oeddie> codetalks.org
08:18:57 <Steven> http://wiki.codetalks.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
08:19:18 <Steven> http://wiki.codetalks.org/wiki/index.php/Set_of_ARIA_Test_Cases
08:19:37 <oeddie> http://wiki.codetalks.org/wiki/index.php/ARIATestTests
08:19:39 <oeddie> http://wiki.codetalks.org/wiki/index.php/ARIATestTesters
08:19:43 <oeddie> http://wiki.codetalks.org/wiki/index.php/ARIATestTemplate
08:20:28 <oeddie> SP: none use CURIEs
08:20:41 <oeddie> GJR: willing to work with someone on that
08:21:00 <oeddie> SP: WAI-ARIA allows CURIE values for role
08:21:14 <oeddie> GJR: have to check -- may have been dropped
08:21:23 <oeddie> GJR: will check at break
08:21:38 <oeddie> SP: Overkill for role
08:22:03 <oeddie> SP: only need 2 tests: prefix CURIE and reserved word CURIE
08:22:20 <oeddie> SM: Lot of reserved words in vocab document
08:22:30 <oeddie> SM: what does it mean to implement surpport for role?
08:22:43 <oeddie> SP: sepc for Role does not require any behavior
08:23:02 <Roland_> s/sepc/spec/
08:23:03 <Steven> s/sepc/spec/
08:24:23 <oeddie> GJR: role=search mockup-plans
08:24:33 <oeddie> SP: don't have to show implemented, but using it
08:25:25 <oeddie> SM: by using it, incorporating modules we have defined into markup languages and ensuring that such hybrids validate - might need for CR, but no behavioral action defined; CURIEs just tokens
08:25:55 <oeddie> SP: who is using role other than ARIA and us?
08:26:03 <oeddie> GJR: mobile very interested in role
08:26:58 <oeddie> SM: langugage that allows it - like class in HTML -- has no semantics to it; CSS and other microformats use class to achieve ends, but HTML has no req performance or usage for class
08:27:42 <oeddie> RM: depends upon how define -- implementation through languages;
08:28:02 <oeddie> SP: never know what is going to arise in CR
08:29:02 <oeddie> SM: problems: can't be dependent on WAI because WAI dependent upon us; think could demonstrate markup language that uses model -- XHTML2, XHTML11+RDFa -- could get extermal group to do this (Mark's hybrid language - XH)
08:30:56 <oeddie> SP: role doesn't have any semantics attached to it by spec itself; that sort of spec always causes trouble at transition
08:31:11 <oeddie> RM: show been combined into 2 languages (interoperability) and 2 implementations as well
08:31:42 <oeddie> SP: exit criteria will be: languages adopting this module and furthermore 2 interop implementations of one or more languages
08:31:52 <oeddie> RM: WAI-ARIA and mobile profile
08:31:56 <oeddie> SP: sounds good
08:32:13 <oeddie> RESOLVED: Request CR for Role Module
08:32:25 <oeddie> rrsagent, make minutes
08:32:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-xhtml-minutes.html oeddie
08:33:08 <oeddie> SM: 3 exit criteria langs, 2 implementations, 2 interop implementations that support one or more of those languages; all comments received during LC have been disposed of
08:33:36 <oeddie> SP: SVG Tiny does have "role' attribute
08:33:37 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGMobile12/attributeTable.html
08:33:58 <oeddie> http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/SVG/Mobile12
08:34:28 <oeddie> SP: SVGT 1.2 has adopted role as well
08:34:43 <oeddie> GJR: check that 'role' in both are identical -- list of strings
08:34:52 <oeddie> SP: intention the same
08:35:09 <oeddie> RM: include implementation of role in SVG?
08:35:43 <oeddie> SP: reference 'role' informatively - don't want a dependency on us, but in future version will be able to reference Role Module normatively once through rec
08:35:52 <Zakim> -ShaneM
08:35:54 <oeddie> BREAK FOR 30 MINUTES
08:35:56 <Zakim> -Cannes
08:35:59 <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita
08:36:00 <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()3:00AM has ended
08:36:01 <Zakim> Attendees were Cannes, ShaneM, Gregory_Rosmaita
08:36:18 <nick> nick has joined #xhtml
08:36:21 <oeddie> rrsagend, draft minutes
08:38:21 <oeddie> rrsagent, make minutes
08:38:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-xhtml-minutes.html oeddie
08:47:13 <ShaneM> CR Ready draft of the CURIE spec is available at http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-curie-20081023/
08:47:51 <ShaneM> CR Ready draft of the XHTML Role Attribute Module spec is available at http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtml-role-20081023/
09:05:18 <unl> unl has joined #xhtml
09:07:42 <nick> nick has joined #xhtml
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09:08:30 <Zakim> I last learned something new on $Date: 2008/10/23 15:16:11 $
09:08:51 <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()3:00AM has now started
09:08:53 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita
09:09:49 <Roland_> Roland_ has joined #xhtml
09:10:20 <Roland_> Zakim, dial executive_3
09:10:20 <Zakim> ok, Roland_; the call is being made
09:10:22 <Zakim> +Executive_3
09:11:23 <Zakim> +ShaneM
09:12:01 <oeddie> TOPIC: XHTML Access Module
09:13:15 <oeddie> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtml-access-20081018
09:13:47 <oeddie> SM: updated CURIE criteria section
09:15:24 <oeddie> SM: 15 January 2008 as target for leaving CR
09:15:32 <oeddie> SM: takes into account holiday season
09:16:24 <oeddie> RN: disposition of comments?
09:16:41 <oeddie> SM: was going to do during break but GJR and i got to exchanging music pointers
09:16:49 <Steven> Steven has joined #xhtml
09:16:52 <oeddie> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/tracker/agenda
09:17:22 <Steven> rrsagent, pointer?
09:17:22 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-xhtml-irc#T09-17-22
09:18:10 <oeddie> zakim, who is here?
09:18:10 <Zakim> On the phone I see Gregory_Rosmaita, Executive_3, ShaneM
09:18:11 <Zakim> On IRC I see Steven, Roland_, nick, unl, ShaneM, RRSAgent, Zakim, oeddie, trackbot
09:18:22 <oeddie> mute Executive_3
09:18:33 <oeddie> unmute Executive3
09:18:46 <oeddie> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtml-access-20081018
09:19:40 <oeddie> SM: could markup CURIE syntax document with RDFa - could be its own test suite
09:20:40 <Roland_> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtml-role-20081023/
09:20:48 <oeddie> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-curie-20081018/curie-wd-diff.html
09:20:56 <oeddie> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-curie-20081018/curie-diff.html
09:22:00 <oeddie> diff from editor's draft: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-curie-20081023/curie-diff.html
09:22:14 <oeddie> diff from previous wd: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-curie-20081023/curie-wd-diff.html
09:23:17 <oeddie> SM: ok, Role needs diff info
09:24:56 <oeddie> RM: change made to earlier item "MUST NOT" - what is allowed to change after LC -- this was in rsponse to LC comment, so should be ok?
09:25:10 <oeddie> SP: LC comment from TAG
09:25:19 <oeddie> SM: follow up from Henry Thompson
09:25:47 <oeddie> RM: have we responded to all LC commentors?
09:26:06 <oeddie> SM: happy with responses
09:26:32 <oeddie> RM: XHTML Role Module still has prefix forms for reference
09:26:56 <oeddie> s/TOPIC: XHTML Access Module/TOPIC: Role Module, continued
09:27:14 <oeddie> SM: good catch -- will take care of right now
09:28:00 <oeddie> RM: request from XForms group
09:28:50 <oeddie> http://www.w3.org/2008/10/15-xhtml-minutes.html#item06
09:28:50 <Steven> (http://www.w3.org/2008/10/20-forms-minutes#item05)
09:29:47 <Roland_> Minutes of joint session to discuss XForms comments on XML Events 2
09:30:03 <Steven> (For later consideration)
09:30:33 <oeddie> Roland: XML events 2 was intended to be incorporated in XForms
09:30:34 <oeddie> <Roland_> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Sep/0029
09:32:33 <oeddie> SP: happy with CURIE for the record
09:32:38 <oeddie> GJR: me too
09:33:31 <oeddie> unmute Executive_3
09:34:07 <oeddie> RM: prefix issue needs clean up before CURIE is ready
09:34:15 <oeddie> SM: came up with something uploadig now
09:35:58 <oeddie> SP: with RDFa we say host language decides about prefix
09:36:09 <oeddie> SP: role defines cases for appropriate use
09:36:26 <oeddie> SP: SVG has "role"
09:36:32 <oeddie> RM: host language should define
09:36:38 <oeddie> SP: Host language must define
09:36:51 <oeddie> RM: unless specified by host language, default is...
09:38:15 <oeddie> SM: concern about RM's suggestion is have situation not sure how would affect implementatoin; value in flexibility, but what does mean for implemenattiono of ARIA -- if encounters CURIE relying on default prefix how does it now to interpret
09:38:37 <oeddie> RM: interesting questions -- if SVG changes role with different prefixed, ARIA wouldn't pick them up
09:39:23 <oeddie> SM: one way to address this is instead of talking about default prefix can say "default prefix kicks in when colon (foo:)" there is also collection of reserved values defined in vocabl
09:39:33 <oeddie> RM: reserved, default, and prefix
09:39:43 <oeddie> SP: section doesn't mention this
09:40:04 <oeddie> SM: trying to simplify, but maybe have to be explained in more complicated detail
09:40:57 <oeddie> SM: could take language from RDFa in strong normative way - reserve values over here, host language responsible to define prefix and context -- reference or resereved value (which is in vocab doc), but SVG will want own reserved values
09:41:46 <oeddie> SP: as long as MLs don't keep asking us to add to vocab namespace
09:42:04 <oeddie> RM: but SVG should follow same rules -- SVG Tiny 1,2 does't do this
09:42:22 <oeddie> RM: no predifined values for 'role' in SVG
09:44:06 <oeddie> http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/SVG/Mobile12/RoleAttribute
09:44:20 <oeddie> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-wai-pf/2008OctDec/thread.html#msg46
09:44:44 <oeddie> RM: if want role attribute, who takes responsibility for expansion of role -- should be role processor
09:44:51 <oeddie> SP: not necessarily one processer
09:45:14 <oeddie> RM: one processor for that 
09:45:31 <oeddie> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-wai-pf/2008JulSep/0607.html
09:45:36 <oeddie> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-wai-pf/2008JulSep/0615.html
09:45:52 <oeddie> SM: CURIE spec says specifically this is NOT in DOM
09:46:03 <oeddie> RM: creation of URI
09:46:18 <oeddie> SM: no power over DOM implementations -- trying to make as useful as possible today
09:46:56 <oeddie> RM: behavior from role attribute easier, but would be quite nice if people didn't have to understand about CURIEs and could just let processor handle URIs
09:47:06 <oeddie> SM: great role, but have to get there
09:47:52 <ShaneM> The CURIE spec says: Note that if CURIEs are to be used in the context of scripting, accessing a CURIE via standard mechanisms such as the XML DOM will return the lexical form,
09:47:52 <ShaneM> not its value as IRI. In order to develop portable applications that evaluate CURIEs, a script author must transform CURIEs into their value as IRI
09:47:52 <ShaneM> before evaluating them (e.g., dereferencing the resulting IRI or comparing two CURIEs).
09:48:49 <unl_> unl_ has joined #xhtml
09:49:02 <oeddie> from PF to SVG on 'role': * reference http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-SVGMobile12-20080915/single-page.html#metadata-MetadataAttributes
09:49:02 <oeddie> * from: "When used with ARIA, the 'role' attribute must be one of a specific set of keywords from the ARIA ontology, and to be most effective, needs to be used in conjunction with other attributes defined by ARIA, each with a specific set of corresponding values relevant to the particular role.
09:49:02 <oeddie> * to: "When SVG is used with WAI-ARIA, some of the strings in the list in the 'role' attribute value may match one or more values designated as role names in that specification.  In this case, WAI-ARIA defines additional processing for the elements bearing these 'role' values including requirements for the use of further WAI-ARIA-defined  attributes.  Note that this processing does not interfere with host  language processing, but supplements it with regard to t
09:49:06 <oeddie> [suggested hyperlinking: link the first instance of WAI-ARIA in this  paragraph to an entry in the references section which itself leads to  the 'latest version' link on the Technical Reports page.  Whatever  you work out with the Comm Team is fine, here.]
09:49:19 <oeddie> RM: script to translate from CURIE to URI
09:49:48 <oeddie> SP: work on this from UbiWeb
09:50:09 <oeddie> RM: here is bit of javascript that does it -- reuse it
09:50:17 <oeddie> RM: making life easier for people
09:50:27 <oeddie> GJR: crossover with RWAB XG library plans?
09:50:37 <oeddie> RM: not required
09:51:00 <oeddie> SM: won't be easy to write script
09:51:05 <oeddie> RM: why need pre-canned one
09:51:18 <oeddie> SM: requesting put in before CR
09:51:26 <oeddie> RM: no, but for REC -- help with adoption
09:51:43 <oeddie> GJR: ubiquity-xforms model for ubiquity-curies
09:52:00 <oeddie> RM: develop supporting materials to make adaptation easier
09:52:03 <ShaneM> ACTION: Shane to craft an example script to generically transform a string to a CURIE using the XML DOM for inclusion or reference from the CURIE spec.
09:52:03 <trackbot> Created ACTION-13 - Craft an example script to generically transform a string to a CURIE using the XML DOM for inclusion or reference from the CURIE spec. [on Shane McCarron - due 2008-10-30].
09:52:09 <Steven> And Ben Adida's RDFa implementaiton in javascript
09:52:14 <oeddie> rrsagent, make minutes
09:52:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-xhtml-minutes.html oeddie
09:53:09 <oeddie> RM: important thing: make script that can do this and then make universally available; informative section would be nice, but would be better if people could witness the execution of the script
09:53:28 <oeddie> RM: status of Role?
09:53:51 <oeddie> SM: didn't agree on what we want to say?  restrict role to specific set of values? restrict to specific prefix?
09:54:44 <oeddie> RM: default or specify options;
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09:59:30 <oeddie> RM: need to change paragraph to -- prefix version and default, and one cannot change default
09:59:38 <oeddie> SP: don't feel strongly enough either way
10:00:25 <oeddie> SM: for flexibility, should allow host languages to define their own default prefix if they so choose, BUT should require that our collection of reserved values are always respected
10:00:43 <oeddie> RM: value not found in default prefix, fall back to default default prefix?
10:01:11 <ShaneM> Three forms... foo:bar, :bar, and bar
10:01:13 <oeddie> SM: don't define
10:01:31 <oeddie> RM: default order - look in language namespace the role vocab?
10:02:42 <ShaneM> role="bar" that's from our list.
10:02:45 <oeddie> SM: not what i want; ways of extending but out of scope: for this spec, collection of reserved values; 3 forms of CURIE syntax - we know what foo:bar is, suggesting if goo:bar is fine, but prefix for that is host language definable; XHTML Role doesn't care what default prefix is, but do have reserved values, 
10:02:55 <oeddie> RM: is that now in CURIE spec
10:03:07 <oeddie> SM: says is up to language using it to determine what it means
10:03:24 <ShaneM> role=":bar" is not defined.  host languages can define it if they like.
10:03:31 <oeddie> RM: haven't discussed particular feature in this spec so far -- haven't said what happens if define foo:bar
10:04:09 <oeddie> RM: either invalid or it default values in vocab -- those are 2 options
10:04:11 <oeddie> SM: true
10:04:34 <oeddie> RM: if defaulted to vocab, one less error which doesn't need to be tested
10:05:00 <oeddie> SM: prefix used in that case is blah - host languge may override that
10:05:02 <oeddie> RM:yes
10:05:11 <oeddie> SM: will make changes so can revisit in context
10:05:32 <oeddie> TOPIC: Access Module
10:05:38 <oeddie> rrsagent, make minutes
10:05:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-xhtml-minutes.html oeddie
10:05:48 <Roland_> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtml-access-20081018/
10:07:18 <ShaneM> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtml-access-20081018/xhtml-access-diff.html
10:07:23 <oeddie> SM: status: XHTML Acess new draft 18 October 2008 - should be diff marks from LC draft; implemented all changes requested and agreed to by WG; included revamping of introduction; suggest we reveiw those changes
10:08:36 <oeddie> SP: don't have to worry about being adopted in more than one language; enough to say 2 interoperable imnplementations
10:08:40 <oeddie> SM: ok
10:10:09 <oeddie> RM: review period depends upon implementation -- need 2 -- do we have any idea where to find?
10:10:17 <oeddie> SP: Shane talking of doing one himself
10:10:30 <oeddie> SM: not hard to implement in browser context
10:11:31 <oeddie> SM: open issue in agenda - what happens with regard to intrisic events and access element?  if going to incorporate into other languages, how, and what does having event in mnodule?
10:12:03 <oeddie> SM: intrinsic event module - brings in all intrinsic events from HTML
10:12:35 <ShaneM> http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/abstract_modules.html#s_intrinsiceventsmodule
10:12:36 <myakura> myakura has joined #xhtml
10:13:19 <oeddie> SM: One could imagine could be useful
10:13:44 <oeddie> SP: Access Element not exposed to markup - onKeyPress means something very specific in HTML - if keyPressEvent passes through or bubbles
10:14:11 <oeddie> SP: can put events on there, but won't happen unless include script that says "put on this element" so is moot
10:15:05 <oeddie> events in HTML 4.01 can be found at: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/sgml/dtd.html#Script
10:15:54 <oeddie> SM: not sure how we get to point where people other than me implementing access
10:16:02 <oeddie> SM: is mozilla working on it
10:16:55 <oeddie> http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/AccesskeyRequirements
10:18:00 <oeddie> http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/HTML5/AccesskeyRequirements
10:19:36 <oeddie> SM: tricky bit is require UAs provide mechanism for overriding access keys
10:19:48 <oeddie> GJR: Opera satisfies that requirement, but not for access elemet
10:20:27 <oeddie> SM: implementing in plug-in tough to make portable
10:20:42 <oeddie> SP: use script?
10:21:17 <oeddie> SM: use developement framework like google gears, user can explicitly add access, but no support at javascript level and no portable plugin
10:21:31 <oeddie> SP: we do say MUST on override
10:21:59 <oeddie> RM: average feature - if that aspect important do implementation for it
10:22:41 <oeddie> GJR: something along ubiquity-xforms model for access?
10:22:54 <oeddie> SM: consistency/permanance is a SHOULD
10:23:00 <oeddie> RM: could stick into session cookie
10:23:10 <oeddie> SM: one could....
10:23:40 <oeddie> SP: write page that allows user to specify binding
10:23:58 <oeddie> SM: specific web site or collection of pages -- script has to be embedded in page
10:24:21 <oeddie> SP: cookie doesn't have to be site speficic
10:24:31 <oeddie> RM: demonstrate that effect can be achived in User Agent
10:24:52 <oeddie> SM: in terms of schedule, Access going to take longer to get out of CR than the rest
10:24:58 <oeddie> RM: 6 months?
10:25:10 <oeddie> SM: accepting input through 15 March 2009
10:25:27 <oeddie> SM: can always extend, but can never contract
10:25:52 <oeddie> SP: date by which may reach exit criteria
10:26:49 <oeddie> proposed resolution: send Access to CR; exit criteria 15 March 2009 ????
10:28:42 <oeddie> RM: in intro final paragraph remove :the needs of the Accessiblity community."
10:28:44 <oeddie> SM: ok
10:29:54 <oeddie> SM: Logical successor to accesskey - then put in pointers
10:30:36 <oeddie> RM: good bits in conformance - chameleon version again, but all in native side - if not this, and not this, have to infer it is the other?
10:31:11 <oeddie> RM: possible to write things if not in XHTML NS do this; if not in XML NS can still use
10:31:20 <oeddie> SM: huh?
10:31:45 <oeddie> RM: 1) if not in XHTML NS do this, if are in XHTML NS, do this
10:32:14 <oeddie> SM: don't think 2 pieces: document, not host language conformance
10:32:32 <oeddie> RM: does this statement say you couldn't incorporate XHTML Access into HTML5?
10:32:59 <oeddie> RM: makes PF request for Access Module in HTML5 more difficult
10:33:08 <oeddie> SM: HTML5 in same namespace
10:33:27 <oeddie> SM: if write document not in XHTML NS and doesn not have appropriate NS, have to use our NS
10:34:02 <oeddie> RM: if document not in XHTML NS the following is required; HTML5 in XHTML NS, so don't need to worry; implied by spec that use in HTML5 covered
10:34:35 <oeddie> RM: if don't have that, must do this; if are in XHTML NS don't worry -- nothing needed to do because Access Module in same NS
10:35:22 <oeddie> RM: trying to find positive take on spec, which i think this does
10:35:40 <oeddie> RM: new attribute @order
10:36:11 <oeddie> SP: added one new attribute, @order in response to specific LC request
10:36:26 <oeddie> RM: "keys or other events" -- keys in quotes because ?
10:36:51 <oeddie> GJR: explained in 3.1.2
10:38:02 <oeddie> GJR: key is an abstraction and historical
10:38:13 <oeddie> RM: SHOULD persist over sessions?
10:38:14 <oeddie> SM: yes
10:38:26 <oeddie> SM: a lot of changes in reaction to comments from SVG group
10:40:01 <oeddie> RM: MediaDesc link http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/abstraction.html#dt_MediaDesc
10:40:53 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-css3-mediaqueries-20081015/
10:41:31 <oeddie> http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/abstraction.html#dt_MediaDesc
10:41:40 <oeddie> SM: it is to M12n
10:41:45 <oeddie> SP: derrived from CSS?
10:41:47 <oeddie> SM: no
10:42:46 <oeddie> 1. The value is a comma-separated list of entries. For example, media="screen, 3d-glasses, print and resolution > 90dpi" is mapped to:
10:42:46 <oeddie>       "screen"
10:42:46 <oeddie>       "3d-glasses"
10:42:46 <oeddie>       "print and resolution > 90dpi"
10:42:57 <oeddie> 2. Each entry is truncated just before the first character that isn't a US ASCII letter [a-zA-Z] (ISO 10646 hex 41-5a, 61-7a), digit [0-9] (hex 30-39), or hyphen-minus (hex 2d). In the example, this gives:
10:42:57 <oeddie>       "screen"
10:42:57 <oeddie>       "3d-glasses"
10:42:57 <oeddie>       "print"
10:43:07 <oeddie> 3. A case-insensitive match is then made with the set of media types defined above. User agents may ignore entries that don't match. In the example we are left with screen and print.
10:43:07 <oeddie> Note. Style sheets may include media-dependent variations within them (e.g., the CSS @media construct). In such cases it may be appropriate to use "media =all".
10:43:56 <oeddie> RM: seems ok to me
10:44:02 <oeddie> SP: activate attribute change?
10:44:08 <oeddie> SM: yes and no
10:44:22 <oeddie> SM: DougS suggested "true" and "false" which struck me as better
10:44:47 <oeddie> RM looks ok to me -- other comments
10:45:51 <oeddie> SM: has same issues with default prefix that access did
10:46:01 <oeddie> s/access did/role did
10:46:22 <oeddie> SM: host language could override, but preserve both values
10:46:59 <oeddie> RM: only CURIEs used for roles, so brings in role
10:47:35 <oeddie> RM: agree on criteria?
10:47:39 <oeddie> SP: yes
10:47:45 <oeddie> RM: so need implementation
10:47:57 <oeddie> RM: do need to set up test plan and test cases
10:48:05 <oeddie> SM: do we have to do that before CR?
10:48:14 <oeddie> SP: no, but have to have them before exit CR
10:48:35 <oeddie> RM: create disposition of comments doc?
10:48:37 <oeddie> SM: yes
10:48:53 <oeddie> RESOLVED: Access Module should move to CR
10:49:01 <oeddie> rrsagent, make minutes
10:49:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-xhtml-minutes.html oeddie
10:50:32 <oeddie> s/Access Module should move to CR/Access Module should move to CR with exit criteria 15 March 2009
10:50:37 <oeddie> rrsagent, make minutes
10:50:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-xhtml-minutes.html oeddie
10:51:55 <Steven> #html-wg
10:51:59 <oeddie> BREAK FOR LUNCH: HTML5 Joint Session in 70 minutes time; discussions in #html-wg
10:52:13 <oeddie> rrsagent, make minutes
10:52:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-xhtml-minutes.html oeddie
10:52:18 <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita
10:52:25 <Zakim> -Executive_3
10:52:26 <ShaneM> CR ready draft of XHTML Access is at http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtml-access-20081023/
10:52:31 <Zakim> -ShaneM
10:52:33 <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()3:00AM has ended
10:52:34 <Zakim> Attendees were Gregory_Rosmaita, Executive_3, ShaneM
10:52:50 <oeddie> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/tracker/issues/1
10:53:03 <Roland_> rrsagent, make minutes
10:53:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-xhtml-minutes.html Roland_
10:54:23 <oeddie> by the way, i pointed out to the HTML5 people during the PF joint meeting is that we need a text/html+ARIA profile for validation, NOT an HTML+ARIA
10:54:48 <oeddie> rrsagent, make minutes
10:54:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-xhtml-minutes.html oeddie
10:59:29 <oeddie> 3 Resolutions logged so far: 1) send CURIE to CR; 2) send Role to CR; 3) send Access to CR with exit date of 15 March 2009
10:59:40 <oeddie> rrsagent, make minutes
10:59:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-xhtml-minutes.html oeddie
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12:08:19 <Steeeven> hi
12:08:27 <Steeeven> now in #html-wg
12:08:49 <gregor_samsa> thanks - i forgot
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13:07:31 <Steeeven> Steeeven has changed the topic to: #xhtml html-wg sesh ends at 13:30 UTC. Coffee break after that, back at 14:00 UTC
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14:07:15 <Steven> Steven has joined #xhtml
14:07:35 <Steven> hi there
14:07:37 <Steven> zakim, code?
14:07:39 <unl> unl has joined #xhtml
14:07:43 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #xhtml
14:07:48 <Steven> zakim, code?
14:07:48 <Zakim> sorry, Steven, I don't know what conference this is
14:07:53 <Steven> zakim, this is xhtml
14:07:53 <Zakim> Steven, I see IA_XHTML2()3:00AM in the schedule but not yet started.  Perhaps you mean "this will be xhtml".
14:08:07 <Steven> zakim, this will be xhtml
14:08:07 <Zakim> ok, Steven; I see IA_XHTML2()3:00AM scheduled to start 428 minutes ago
14:08:15 <Roland_> Roland_ has joined #xhtml
14:08:18 <ShaneM> once again I get to say "low tech crap"
14:08:26 <Steven> zakim, code?
14:08:26 <Zakim> the conference code is 94865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Steven
14:08:35 <Steven> zakim, dial executive_3
14:08:35 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
14:08:36 <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()3:00AM has now started
14:08:38 <Zakim> +Executive_3
14:08:38 <nick> nick has joined #xhtml
14:08:43 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita
14:08:52 <Zakim> +McCarron
14:09:05 <ShaneM> zakim, McCarron is ShaneM
14:09:05 <Zakim> +ShaneM; got it
14:09:29 <oedipus> zakim, oedipus is Gregory_Rosmaita
14:09:29 <Zakim> sorry, oedipus, I do not recognize a party named 'oedipus'
14:09:34 <oedipus> zakim, mute me
14:09:34 <Zakim> sorry, oedipus, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
14:10:37 <oedipus> zakim, Gregory_Rosmaita is oedipus
14:10:37 <Zakim> +oedipus; got it
14:10:42 <oedipus> zakim, mute me
14:10:42 <Zakim> oedipus should now be muted
14:11:03 <oedipus> zakim, unmute me
14:11:03 <Zakim> oedipus should no longer be muted
14:11:18 <oedipus> zakim, mute me
14:11:18 <Zakim> oedipus should now be muted
14:11:28 <oedipus> READJOURN
14:11:37 <oedipus> SM: plan to adjourn in approx 1 hour
14:11:41 <oedipus> SP: that's the plan
14:11:59 <oedipus> RM: couple of related items - script @implements features
14:12:32 <oedipus> RM: put on SCRIPT element in XML Events 2; step back to 1.2 script module?
14:12:52 <oedipus> SP: pleased with positive reaction yesterday of using this method of implementing XML technologies;
14:13:41 <nick> nick has joined #xhtml
14:13:45 <oedipus> RM: have idea -- feature can refer to namespace 
14:13:51 <oedipus> RM: compatible with that idea
14:14:12 <Roland_> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xml-events-20081020/#s_script_module
14:14:37 <oedipus> RM: Script Module in XML Events 2 - talking about @implements attribute 
14:14:51 <oedipus> RM: only additional attribute; rest inherited
14:16:12 <ShaneM> call it "Script implements Attribute Module"
14:16:20 <oedipus> RM: optional attribute; provides implementation of feature defined by that URI; script should be loaded if UA doesn't have implementation of the URI referenced
14:16:42 <oedipus> SM: simple extension to scripting module for 1.1
14:17:01 <oedipus> RM: also suggest that say URI
14:18:03 <oedipus> SM: applicability outside of XHTML 1.2?
14:18:06 <oedipus> RM: XHTML5
14:18:19 <oedipus> GJR: Expert Handlers for Specialized Markup Languages
14:19:02 <oedipus> unmute me
14:19:08 <oedipus> zakim, unmute me
14:19:08 <Zakim> oedipus should no longer be muted
14:21:17 <oedipus> SM: @implements is a fine thing; can provide a script that would help support it
14:21:35 <oedipus> RM: access module that way -- script implements XHTML Access
14:21:52 <oedipus> SM: need script to implement implements
14:22:00 <Steven> <script src="access.js" implements="xhtml:access"/>
14:22:22 <oedipus> SM: script that implements implements and when gets initiallized (puts something into onLoadEventQueue) and disables all other events
14:22:46 <oedipus> SM: is there a converse to @implements - @required?
14:23:01 <oedipus> GJR: real life example is MathML - local script or URI 
14:23:59 <oedipus> RM: what are @implements features?
14:24:06 <Roland_> http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2008/ws/soapjms/soapjms.html?content-type=text/html;%20charset=utf-8#soap-binding
14:24:24 <oedipus> RM: define features in specification - URI that can be abbreviated
14:24:36 <oedipus> RM: define features of this spec on same basis
14:25:08 <oedipus> RM: what features ought to be -- off end of xmlns -- could be bad, could be good; feature/featureName
14:25:14 <oedipus> SP: using QNames
14:25:16 <oedipus> RM: no
14:25:33 <oedipus> RM: SOAP happens to be used for QNames,but important thing is URI
14:26:37 <oedipus> SM: action to produce features document
14:27:05 <ShaneM> ACTION: ShaneM to produce a features document that describes the various feature names for the XHTML collection.
14:27:05 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - ShaneM
14:27:16 <ShaneM> ACTION: Shane to produce a features document that describes the various feature names for the XHTML collection.
14:27:16 <trackbot> Created ACTION-14 - Produce a features document that describes the various feature names for the XHTML collection. [on Shane McCarron - due 2008-10-30].
14:27:49 <oedipus> RM: how to name URIs - should go in our namespace - shane will have look to see if synonomous with modules; did write XML Events as 3 module document: Handler Module, Listener Module, Script Module
14:27:58 <oedipus> RM: what features for each module
14:28:10 <Steven> Steven has changed the topic to: XHTML2 WG FtF, Day 1
14:28:10 <oedipus> SM: gives rise to a CURIE issue
14:28:45 <oedipus> SM: issue:  CURIE allows host lang to define a default prefix or collection of reserve values that will map into a CURIE
14:29:12 <oedipus> SM: if have multiple attributes using CURIEs, do we hvave multiple collectoins ?
14:29:15 <oedipus> RM: no
14:29:33 <Steven> Present+Masataka Yakura (remote)
14:29:51 <oedipus> SM: for default prefixing definitely no, but then CURIE processor can't follow its nose and learn them
14:30:05 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
14:30:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-xhtml-minutes.html Steven
14:30:11 <oedipus> SM: do we need reserved values for a feature list?
14:30:18 <oedipus> RM: could reference URI 
14:30:40 <oedipus> SM: reasonable check but doesn't get to definitive source
14:31:01 <Steven> s/Intos/Intros/
14:31:16 <oedipus> SM: hang features off namespace  -- agree we should, but given CURIE architecture today, have to put in vocab document
14:31:50 <oedipus> SM: what need in RDF of vocab is direct mapping and convention - these functions are associated with these attributes on these elements; 
14:32:22 <oedipus> RM: when i'm processing script @implments, not concerned about issue you raised?
14:32:36 <oedipus> SM: are if =rdfa -- how do i deference that
14:32:48 <oedipus> SP: xml:rdfa
14:33:02 <oedipus> RM: better off without prefix
14:33:19 <oedipus> SM: can't say xhtml:rdfa - no xhtml: prefix
14:33:27 <oedipus> SP: CURIE - would have had to define
14:33:58 <oedipus> SM: in normal course of using html, never define an html prefix
14:34:10 <oedipus> SM: can say have to define prefix or just use full URIs
14:34:11 <Steven> implements=":rdfa"
14:34:30 <oedipus> SP: empty prefix?  what's the prefix in xhtml when just use colon
14:34:39 <oedipus> SM: just colon is the xhtml vocab
14:34:47 <oedipus> SP: ok
14:34:53 <Roland_> http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab#XML-HANDLERS
14:35:18 <oedipus> SP: RDFa a feature of our namespace
14:35:36 <Roland_> http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/feature#XML-HANDLERS
14:35:37 <oedipus> SM: not suggesting put features in vocab doc unless good way to scope them;
14:36:05 <oedipus> SM: need to invent way to scope them, but for most other people dealing with @implements, using URIs -- we can always use URIs
14:36:18 <oedipus> RM: trivial compared to script
14:36:29 <oedipus> SM: if use URI like 
14:37:02 <ShaneM> http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/features/rdfa-syntax
14:37:32 <oedipus> RM: looks fine to me
14:37:42 <oedipus> SM: URIs have to de-reference to something
14:37:58 <oedipus> SP: someone can turn that into a prefix and use CURIEs to write that down
14:38:05 <Steven> that's what I meant
14:38:38 <oedipus> RM: point to specification so that machine aware of rdfa-syntax
14:38:53 <oedipus> SM: is ok if use CURIE or URI
14:39:28 <Steven> s/xml/xhtml/
14:39:42 <oedipus> SM: will write this up as part of previous action item
14:39:49 <oedipus> SM: script module - what form
14:39:54 <oedipus> RM: like access element
14:40:04 <ShaneM> ACTION: Shane to create a Script implements Attribute Module
14:40:04 <trackbot> Created ACTION-15 - Create a Script implements Attribute Module [on Shane McCarron - due 2008-10-30].
14:40:17 <oedipus> RM: if something untoward happens and don't get to do 2, then we have it as a module
14:40:54 <oedipus> RM: what does script implement?  the feature
14:41:11 <oedipus> SM: doesn't just have to provide mechanism
14:41:23 <oedipus> SM: we want to say: tie to HasFeature of DOM somehow
14:41:26 <oedipus> SM: how?
14:41:42 <oedipus> RM: don't know, but agree -- register DOM somewhere, somehow
14:41:57 <oedipus> SM: need to get UA devs to use well defined URIs or won't work
14:42:23 <oedipus> RM: should be encouraging into the future; becomes part of our spec - should be reflected in dom
14:42:48 <oedipus> s/should be reflected in dom/HasFeature should be reflected in DOM
14:43:03 <Steven> Regrets+MarkB
14:43:06 <oedipus> SM: DOM3 - who developing?
14:43:16 <oedipus> RM: WebAps
14:44:03 <oedipus> SM: DOM Level 3 Core has the HasFeature method as part of implementation interface, so good idea to specify in our documents implementations return this value when DOM called
14:44:05 <Roland_> var isImplemented = document.implementation.hasFeature("feature", "version");
14:44:59 <oedipus> RM: has tied to HasFeature registered in DOM that this feature is supported
14:45:18 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
14:45:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
14:45:48 <oedipus> RM: so SM going to create script implements attribute module
14:46:02 <oedipus> SM: can get infrastructure in place then you can edit it to your heart's content
14:46:04 <oedipus> RM: ok
14:46:30 <oedipus> RM: anything else need to discuss on @implements?
14:46:51 <oedipus> SP: not going to say what URIs are for us; defined elsewhere
14:46:53 <ShaneM> From DOM3: To avoid possible conflicts, as a convention, names 	referring to features defined outside the DOM specification 	should be made unique.
14:47:16 <oedipus> TOPIC: XHTML 1.2
14:48:13 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtml12-20081017
14:48:36 <oedipus> SP: meaningful accessible needs to be changed because Philippe thinks attack on HTML5
14:49:04 <oedipus> RM: XHTML (tm) 1.2 and leave at that 
14:49:13 <oedipus> GJR: likes subtitle, but understands politics
14:49:45 <oedipus> SM: "Semantically Rich HTML That Works In Your Browser Today"
14:50:22 <oedipus> SP: doc most close to 1.0 Strict is 1.1
14:50:42 <oedipus> RM: small increments adding features to make superset of XHTML 1.1 Basic
14:51:01 <Steven> rdfa, inputmode, target, access, role
14:51:03 <oedipus> RM: adding inputmode, return of target, access and role
14:51:11 <oedipus> SM: didn't update Abstract
14:51:16 <oedipus> RM: first thing people read
14:51:34 <oedipus> GJR: also @lang -- can't find a single AT dev that triggers off xml:lang
14:52:59 <oedipus> RM: incremental update, why 1.1 - superset of 1.1 Basic - motivation behind XHTML 1.2 plus other features developed in interim that make XHTML stronger and more robust
14:53:09 <ShaneM> This specification builds upon XHTML 1.1 and XHTML Basic 1.1,
14:53:09 <ShaneM> incorporating new technologies to improve accessibility and
14:53:09 <ShaneM> integration with the semantic web.
14:53:34 <oedipus> RM: making a true super-set of features in Basic 1.1
14:53:53 <oedipus> RM: should have inputmode in 1.2
14:54:32 <oedipus> RM: Basic 1.1 should run in 1.2 processor; hook to rationale as to why did in first place; had wrinkle in Basic 1.1 and this is way of ironing out wrinkle
14:54:54 <oedipus> SM: reintroduces some features left out of XHTML 1.1 -- @target and @lang
14:55:22 <oedipus> GJR: but more tightly describing as author proposed/suggestion user disposes
14:55:23 <nic1> nic1 has joined #xhtml
14:56:33 <ShaneM> <p>This specification builds upon XHTML 1.1 and XHTML Basic 1.1,
14:56:34 <ShaneM> helping to create an environment that is a superset of XHTML Basic
14:56:34 <ShaneM> 1.1.  It also reintroduces widely requested features that were
14:56:34 <ShaneM> not included in XHTML 1.1.  Finally, it
14:56:34 <ShaneM> incorporating new technologies to improve accessibility and
14:56:34 <ShaneM> integration with the semantic web.</p>
14:57:03 <oedipus> http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/MarkUp
14:57:10 <oedipus> http://esw.w3.org/topic/PF/XTech/MarkUp/Modularization
14:58:12 <oedipus> RM: differences summarized as: reintroduction of @target and @lang, addition of @inputmode @implements on src and question of absorbing all the ARIA attributes
14:58:34 <oedipus> RM: status of ARIA attributes?
15:01:09 <oedipus> RM: candidate items: @target, @lang, @inputmode, @implements (from Recs or borrowed from past); Access and ARIA in second category
15:02:50 <oedipus> RM: in process, a candidate - if don't get into 1.2 wait until get into XHTML2
15:05:23 <Steven> Al is here
15:06:26 <oedipus> SM: put ARIA stuff in or not?
15:07:02 <oedipus> RM: should have "Candidate, but not Yet" section for ARIA and other modules that haven't progressed far enough yet to be normative
15:07:07 <oedipus> WAI-ARIA
15:07:24 <oedipus> RM: Access Module very much in the Candidate status --
15:07:36 <oedipus> SM: don't know value of 1.2 without Access and ARIA
15:08:24 <oedipus> RM: time-scales all theoretical - access implementations?  aria?
15:09:12 <oedipus> SM: fair point; role and RDFa no problem
15:09:50 <oedipus> GJR: once ARIA spec frozen in CR for all intents and purposes -- already have 2 implementations
15:10:33 <oedipus> SP: start 9 CET 
15:10:40 <oedipus> SM: update 1.2 and send out notice
15:10:48 <Zakim> -ShaneM
15:11:04 <Zakim> -oedipus
15:11:05 <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()3:00AM has ended
15:11:06 <Zakim> Attendees were Executive_3, ShaneM, oedipus
15:11:19 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
15:11:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
15:11:29 <oedipus> zakim, please part
15:11:29 <Zakim> Zakim has left #xhtml
15:11:58 <ShaneM> just remembered something....
15:12:04 <oedipus> whazzat?
15:12:14 <ShaneM> XHTML 1.2 - should we be disabling @accesskey if we include the access element?
15:12:22 <ShaneM> or include both as a transition?
15:12:46 <oedipus> the only way to kill it off is to disable it
15:13:00 <Steven> Roland: No
15:13:11 <Steven> ... we still want it to be a superset of the predecessors
15:13:22 <ShaneM> yeah, that's what I was thinking.   Okay.
15:13:29 <Roland_> rrsagent, make minutes
15:13:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-xhtml-minutes.html Roland_
15:14:10 <oedipus> i have asked HTML WG several times for support for the access module as well as accesskey, but to no avail 
15:14:52 <oedipus> i/READJOURN/ScribeNick: oedipus
15:15:00 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
15:15:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
15:16:00 <oedipus> rrsagent, please part
15:16:00 <RRSAgent> I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-xhtml-actions.rdf :
15:16:00 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Shane to craft an example script to generically transform a string to a CURIE using the XML DOM for inclusion or reference from the CURIE spec. [1]
15:16:00 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-xhtml-irc#T09-52-03
15:16:00 <RRSAgent> ACTION: ShaneM to produce a features document that describes the various feature names for the XHTML collection. [2]
15:16:00 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-xhtml-irc#T14-27-05
15:16:00 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Shane to produce a features document that describes the various feature names for the XHTML collection. [3]
15:16:00 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-xhtml-irc#T14-27-16
15:16:00 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Shane to create a Script implements Attribute Module [4]
15:16:00 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-xhtml-irc#T14-40-04