IRC log of mediaann on 2008-10-23

Timestamps are in UTC.

06:23:00 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
06:23:11 [fsasaki]
meeting: MAWG - TPAC 2008 f2f
06:38:10 [fsasaki]
chair: Daniel, Felix
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scribe: tbp
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scribe: fsasaki
06:44:24 [fsasaki]
topic: meeting start
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scribe: raphael
06:51:58 [raphael]
TOPIC: Introduction of the participants
06:52:29 [raphael]
Daniel: Chair of the group, work in Samsung, first time participation in W3C activities
06:52:50 [raphael]
... co-chair an internet protocol WG in IET>F
06:53:01 [raphael]
06:53:54 [raphael]
??: Research Institute in Korea
06:54:39 [raphael]
Joakim: Erikson (operating system for mobile phones), interest in IPTV
06:54:52 [raphael]
... background in image classification, indexing and retrieval
06:55:28 [raphael]
Veronique: Vrij Universiteit in Amsterdam, work in the Cultural Heritage Domain
06:56:02 [raphael]
Frank: assistant professor in UvA in Amsterdam, worked in the MPEG-7 WG (responsible for DDL)
06:56:38 [raphael]
Fabio: Paris, Thomson, interest in video over P2P
06:57:34 [raphael]
Erik: project manager in IBBT in Ghent (Belgium), co-chair of the Media Fragment WG, work with broadcasters and in the cultural heritage domain
06:58:02 [raphael]
Davy: researcher in IBBT Ghent, multimedia annotation
06:58:45 [fsasaki]
Raphael: was co-chair of MMSEM XG, now co-chair of media-fragments WG. Interested on NLP apllications and multimedia.
06:59:00 [fsasaki]
.. used to work previously in cultural domain setting
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06:59:44 [raphael]
Guillaume: South Africa, interest in languages, content management systems ... would like to consider videos as real structured documents
07:00:25 [raphael]
Felix: W3C staff contact, background in using XML-based or RDF-based languages for representing linguistics resources
07:00:45 [raphael]
... will leave W3C in March, there will be another staff contact
07:01:48 [raphael]
Silvia: run her own company in Australia, did Annodex, CMML, TemporalURI, work with Mozilla on accessibility of Video, active in the Open Source community
07:02:06 [raphael]
Colm Doyle: technical director of Blinx, a video company
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07:02:29 [raphael]
Frank: observer from Canon research in France, what could be the link with the Media Fragment WG
07:02:40 [raphael]
Hervé: also observer from Canon
07:03:12 [raphael]
David: Expway, expert in binarization of XML data, interest in media annotations
07:03:31 [raphael]
Johan: observer from Canon, want to get an idea of what is going on here
07:03:49 [fsasaki]
present: Daniel, Wunsok, Joakim, Veronique, Frank, Fabio, Erik, Davy, Felix, Silvia, Colm, Frank (Canon), Herve, Daniel (Expway), Johan
07:04:55 [raphael]
Daniel: going through the charter and the goals of the group
07:05:01 [raphael]
07:05:15 [fsasaki]
topic: charter review
07:05:21 [wonsuk]
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07:06:09 [raphael]
Daniel: goals is to provide a minimal ontology for representing metadata + to provide an API for accessing video metadata
07:06:17 [raphael]
... timeline is sharp
07:06:56 [raphael]
... goal of this f2f is to have quickly first draft documents
07:07:07 [raphael]
Felix: there will be a lot of missing pieces, this is the purpose
07:07:24 [raphael]
... we want to get quickly feedback from a wider community
07:07:58 [raphael]
Daniel: shows the wiki page
07:08:14 [raphael]
... goes through the Use Case & Requirements wiki page
07:08:43 [raphael]
... we will have another F2F meeting, in Ghent (Belgium) on 9 and 10 December
07:10:01 [raphael]
Felix: 2 more people join
07:10:16 [fsasaki]
present+ Joerg
07:10:53 [raphael]
Heuir: AC Rep of Siemens, Munich (DE), I was active in MPEG for descibing content of audio-visual content
07:10:54 [fsasaki]
present+ Karen
07:10:54 [herve]
07:11:16 [raphael]
Karen Myers: W3C
07:11:44 [fsasaki]
scribe: Felix
07:11:52 [fsasaki]
topic: MMSEM presentation
07:12:52 [fsasaki]
slides at
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07:28:05 [fsasaki]
joakim: looking at liaisons - who is member of I3A?
07:28:20 [fsasaki]
raphael: adobe, canon, many camera people
07:28:27 [fsasaki]
.. similiar membership as IPTC
07:28:53 [fsasaki]
.. in I3A there is four blocks of meta data
07:29:28 [fsasaki]
.. problem is that I3A (DIG35 metadata) is licensed, we had asked for tools for processing it, but there isn't
07:30:04 [fsasaki]
s/in I3A/difference between I3A and IPTC metadata is that in I3A/
07:32:45 [fsasaki]
action: Felix to add a link from WG page to the "still alive" MMSEM wiki pages and to make sure that everybody can edit the pages
07:32:46 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-20 - Add a link from WG page to the \"still alive\" MMSEM wiki pages and to make sure that everybody can edit the pages [on Felix Sasaki - due 2008-10-30].
07:33:21 [raphael]
scribenick: erik
07:33:25 [fsasaki]
topic: questionnaire on formats in scope / out of scope
07:33:33 [fsasaki]
scribe: erik
07:34:27 [erik]
felix goes over questionaire in-scope vs out-of-scope
07:35:19 [erik]
07:38:03 [erik]
joakim: linking between standards is desirable
07:39:12 [erik]
joakim/guillaume: is thumbnail data or metadata? it depends on UC
07:39:41 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate fsasaki
07:40:09 [fsasaki]
present+ guillaume
07:42:45 [erik]
daniel/raphael: what is real definition of "media" in this WG?
07:43:40 [erik]
daniel: primarily img, audio, video from questionnaire
07:45:22 [erik]
felix: methodology of interrelating existing ontologies might be good way to look at things
07:46:07 [erik]
veronique: maybe start from UC and find out what standards we need to describe
07:51:54 [erik]
frank: what do we really want? ... not excluding media (cfr. exif)
07:55:18 [erik]
daniel: focus should be video
07:56:01 [erik]
raphael: "temporal media" covers better the scope
07:58:12 [erik]
felix: discussion formats in-scope vs. out-of-scope should be video central (but the it should be looked at format by format if there's a good link)
08:00:37 [erik]
erik: within Media Fragments WG, video is key (together with audio, image & timed text)
08:01:50 [erik]
frank: even broadening and maybe considering haptic media too
08:05:59 [erik]
raphael: motto keep it simple ... thus parts of MPEG-7 too low-level (color histograms)
08:06:55 [erik]
... try to see overlap between all standards, then you probably already have some top-level stuff to start with
08:08:39 [erik]
consensus out-of-scope: MPEG-21, SVG, SMIL
08:21:23 [Daniel]
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08:23:49 [erik]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
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I have made the request to generate erik
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08:40:16 [fsasaki]
topic: presentations on specific formats
08:40:41 [fsasaki]
raphael presenting on IPTC photo meta data
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scribe: fsasaki
08:41:11 [fsasaki]
raphael: white paper IPTC photo metadata white paper in 2007
08:41:22 [fsasaki]
.. IPTC photo metadata become a standard recently
08:41:39 [fsasaki]
.. white paper authored by photo / image industry
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08:42:19 [fsasaki]
.. blocks: format descriptive, administrative, rights, technical
08:42:34 [fsasaki]
.. each block points to some properties
08:42:40 [fsasaki]
.. e.g. to EXIF
08:43:08 [fsasaki]
raphael describes some properties
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08:43:25 [fsasaki]
raphael: properties have names or controlled vocabularies
08:43:33 [fsasaki]
.. e.g. for location they have geo names URI
08:43:54 [fsasaki]
.. for person they propose controlled vocabularies, e.g. wikipedia
08:44:42 [fsasaki]
.. in administrative: lots of things from EXIF, location from others
08:45:21 [fsasaki]
.. rights metadata: they re-use plus
08:45:34 [fsasaki]
.. for technical properties: EXIF + some additional properties
08:45:56 [fsasaki]
.. physical type of original is enumerated list
08:46:06 [fsasaki]
joakim: how about different video formats?
08:46:13 [fsasaki]
raphael: it is for still images, not video
08:46:34 [fsasaki]
rapahael: the white paper was from 2007. Open issue: how to identify images?
08:46:56 [fsasaki]
.. they use URIs to identify images
08:47:30 [fsasaki]
.. they developed their own URI (HTTP URI) based scheme, not registered with IANA, but they have registered other schemes
08:47:47 [fsasaki]
.. all metadata is embedded in a file, e.g. header of JPEG file
08:47:56 [fsasaki]
.. currently anybody can modify the metadata
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08:48:03 [fsasaki]
.. so they don't know if somebody has modified the data
08:48:40 [fsasaki]
.. it happens often in the image industry, that authors change the date of an image to have it published
08:49:01 [fsasaki]
.. so the publisher want to have waterproof techniques to avoid these problems
08:49:39 [fsasaki]
frank: a field said "maxium resultion is ..."
08:50:02 [fsasaki]
.. how do they handle cases where the resultion does not fit?
08:50:28 [fsasaki]
raphael: currently they copy the metadata, so they have the danger of inconsitencies
08:52:08 [fsasaki]
going through the fields
08:53:01 [fsasaki]
no headline field
08:54:35 [fsasaki]
description - as a general field
08:56:01 [fsasaki]
location, person, event
08:59:06 [fsasaki]
raphael: encourage users to use a controlled vocabulary, say "this SHOULD be used", not with a MUST
09:01:30 [fsasaki]
guillaume: would be good to separate description and caption, also in the video
09:03:06 [fsasaki]
raphael: description is general
09:03:49 [fsasaki]
Colm: there is captioning, close captioning, summary, OCRing as another track, logos, facial recognition etc.
09:04:05 [fsasaki]
.. these all needs indiviudal tags
09:05:28 [fsasaki]
guillaume: hard to derive properties from these, better to describe properties from this
09:05:59 [fsasaki]
Joakim, Raphael: better to have general properties that can be specialized
09:06:24 [fsasaki]
frank: who, what, when, why, where are important 5 "w"
09:08:49 [fsasaki]
raphael: for some properties there might be multiple occurences, that is different cardinality
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09:14:16 [fsasaki]
there are different kinds of "locations", agreement that a location field is necessary, still need to decide whether one field, 2, more, ...
09:16:32 [fsasaki]
and how (hierachically) the properties should be structured
09:17:02 [raphael]
distinguish cataloging properties versus descriptive properties
09:17:35 [raphael]
... thus not that bad to have different who, where, when, etc. for where the media has been captured, versus what it depicts
09:20:44 [fsasaki]
raphael: "who, when, what, where"
09:21:34 [fsasaki]
... see dublin core
09:22:00 [raphael]
Dublin Core new Task Metadadata:
09:22:23 [erik]
09:23:17 [fsasaki]
veronique: should properties here be also linked together in this group?
09:23:40 [fsasaki]
daniel: after verifying relationship between standards we can have a common ontology in W3C
09:24:09 [fsasaki]
.. but we cannot have much more
09:24:14 [raphael]
+1 for Véronique: this is most likely the hardest issue this group will have to solve
09:24:28 [fsasaki]
felix: maybe not even mapping, just describe what is commonly used
09:24:46 [raphael]
I would like to relationships between the properties ... but add serious complexity
09:24:59 [raphael]
s/like to/like to have
09:29:32 [fsasaki]
daniel: assuming that metadata type A has a "film" field, and type B has a "movie" field. We want to be able to work across these, right?
09:30:25 [raphael]
+1 for Guillaume: modeling provenance of the metadata is important too
09:30:37 [fsasaki]
guillaume: do we want to document where metadata came from?
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09:35:40 [fsasaki]
example in terms of API: having a method "getLength" which gives you back the length and the origin (type) of metadata
09:40:12 [Karen]
Felix reviews document from Metadata Working Group
09:48:22 [raphael]
I'm not sure we should go into a conflict resolution mechanism
09:49:38 [fsasaki]
Felix: should we also go for such a conflict resolution mechanism as in the mwp guidance doc?
09:50:02 [raphael]
I would prefer to have the ontology modeling all the necessary provenance information ... and let the application deals with that
09:50:13 [fsasaki]
agreement to have no such conflict resolution mechanism
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09:53:38 [fsasaki]
topic: Top-Down Modelling Approach
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10:03:22 [guillaume]
10:07:22 [fsasaki]
Felix: is this an alternative approach to the bottom-up approach?
10:07:37 [fsasaki]
frank: no, we should do both at the same time
10:10:36 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate fsasaki
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I have made the request to generate fsasaki
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frank continues presentation on "top down" appraoch
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11:48:03 [fsasaki]
veronique: search and annotation are two parts of the same coin
11:48:06 [fsasaki]
frank: true
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11:50:34 [fsasaki]
frank: starting "top down" will help us to get the highlights we need
11:52:09 [fsasaki]
frank: proposal is to achieve a minimal set of properties by looking at use cases, overlap when, see what standards have, is that what we need, and so we link to them
11:54:36 [fsasaki]
guillaume: do we first need to make a list of tasks we want to support?
11:54:47 [fsasaki]
frank: I think such a list would help to set priorities
11:56:03 [fsasaki]
joakim: the "browse" task is different from "search"
11:56:58 [fsasaki]
veronique: search and browse is like accessing the data
11:57:07 [fsasaki]
frank: analyze is in the direction of "working with material"
12:03:12 [fsasaki]
felix: propose to take the material in in the requirements document into account
12:04:05 [fsasaki]
veronique: link between different tasks and existing standards can be a way to describe fields of different standards
12:06:04 [fsasaki]
agreement to put the material into the requirements document
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12:09:35 [Daniel]
going thgough our use cases one by one and editing by wiki pages
12:10:17 [Daniel]
Cultural Heritage UC
12:10:31 [wonsuk]
12:13:55 [Daniel]
not only audio and video for the cultural heritage, but also we should think about others media types ?
12:14:24 [Daniel]
Felix is drawing on the board
12:15:20 [Daniel]
12:16:20 [Daniel]
getting a data for annotation voca. how to use and change it can be parts of API draft
12:17:06 [FD]
Felix: Example of a get API to get date information: getDate(URI, vocabulary)
12:17:39 [FD]
Felix: vocabulary parameter could be "EXIF" for example
12:20:01 [Daniel]
just moving US discussion forward, and consider API issue later
12:20:14 [FD]
12:20:40 [Daniel]
coming back to the UC review...
12:22:13 [Daniel]
some of low lever description can be parts of requirements...ex, interop. search, deploymet, fragment. etc
12:23:45 [Daniel]
fragment parts may belong to another group (e.g., media fragment WG)
12:24:41 [Daniel]
where to store URI and fragmented information ?
12:27:10 [Daniel]
next UC:
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12:33:43 [fsasaki]
discussing "The goal of this WG is to clean up this jungle and make our ontology support of commonly used properties for describing video content."
12:35:24 [Daniel]
changing the above text into "the bridging of commonly used properties for..."
12:40:35 [fsasaki]
action: guillaume to write a use case "interaction, navigation"
12:40:35 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - guillaume
12:44:34 [Daniel]
newly adding "We do not aim to solve the semantic mismatch problem but leave it to the schemes which are used for annotation/retrievel" at the bottom of Example
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12:50:08 [Daniel]
new text proposed: We do not aim to solve the semantic mismatch problem but leave that to the application who creates the annotation / retrieval.
13:04:15 [Daniel]
mapping between the different metadata may take palce in the Ontology document of the WG later.
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13:09:57 [Daniel]
13:15:37 [Daniel]
Mobile use case already widely spreaded in the world...
13:16:19 [Daniel]
geolocation info when contents generated...and use location are both valuable aspects.
13:17:14 [Daniel]
geolocation in the web, for example: life logging...
13:17:16 [raphael]
Raphael: I would point to a liaison with
13:17:40 [fsasaki]
raphael, good point
13:19:36 [Daniel]
looking at Geolocation WG charter and homepage on the screen
13:20:02 [fsasaki]
action: Felix to create a liaison to Geolocation WG
13:20:02 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-21 - Create a liaison to Geolocation WG [on Felix Sasaki - due 2008-10-30].
13:22:04 [Daniel]
discussion: Support media adaptation for mobile device capabilities such as bandwidth, physical screen, audio and text. Media adaptation depending on business models and user preferences.
13:24:05 [Daniel]
targeting for describing mobile device characteristics (screen size, codec style, etc) scope or out of scope ?
13:24:52 [Daniel]
related activities are in OMA (Open Mobile Alliance) today
13:27:42 [Daniel]
how to describe device characteristics is pretty different from media scope
13:28:49 [Daniel]
dinner tonight together...:-)
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13:31:24 [Daniel]
PLING joint meeting tomorrow about Multimedia sharing
13:31:54 [FD]
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13:32:15 [Daniel]
Mobile TV is deleted...
13:33:42 [Daniel]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:33:42 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Daniel
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13:55:07 [Daniel]
also, Geographic Location/Privacy WG in IETF:
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14:03:56 [Daniel]
resume: UC:
14:04:12 [Daniel]
7:40 at lobby for dinner tonight
14:04:21 [fsasaki]
s/40 /30 .
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14:04:24 [fsasaki]
s/40 /30 /
14:07:53 [Daniel]
adding a new sentence: "The WG is likely not to concentrate on this use case in the beginning but might come back to it later"
14:08:32 [Daniel]
14:10:48 [Daniel]
going through UC
14:14:16 [fsasaki]
Daniel: amazon provides a service where users can search through data aggregated from different service
14:14:42 [fsasaki]
.. such a service is similar to what we want to achieve with this UC
14:16:33 [Daniel]
changing the title of UC: Recommendation across different media type
14:16:37 [fsasaki]
Daniel: title of UC is better "Recommendation across different media types "
14:18:10 [fsasaki]
Daniel: for this UC metadata descriptions need to be unified
14:20:16 [fsasaki]
Joakim: AMG has a lot of metadata as a relational database, about movies, music, games, which is interrelated
14:21:36 [fsasaki]
wonsuk: searching videos in youtube, you get recommendations based on the video you choose
14:22:14 [fsasaki]
.. our ontology could help that youtube could provide yahoo and other videos
14:23:27 [Daniel]
new UC discussion:
14:25:22 [Daniel]
question: leave it out or keep as it is...there are several relative parts in others UCs
14:25:37 [fsasaki]
agreement to cover this UC seperatly but cover it as part of other UC and the "top down" section
14:25:53 [fsasaki]
s/seperatly /not seperatly /
14:26:25 [Daniel]
new UC: multimedia sharing
14:26:33 [Daniel]
no initial text for this UC
14:27:13 [fsasaki]
agreement not to cover this UC seperately
14:27:51 [Daniel]
new UC discussion:
14:30:26 [fsasaki]
agreement to take this as an input to our main UC video into account
14:30:48 [Daniel]
new UC discussion:
14:32:42 [Daniel]
changed the title into *Audio*
14:32:54 [fsasaki]
agreement to take this as an input to our main UC video into account
14:33:14 [Daniel]
new UC discussion:
14:34:40 [raphael]
+1 for music -> audio
14:34:43 [Daniel]
Veronique: moving it to the relared UC (e.g., museum or others...) to make broader scope
14:35:11 [raphael]
news is a domain specific use case ... not sure it should stand
14:35:24 [raphael]
... or might be like cultural heritage UC
14:36:17 [Daniel]
TimeText for karaoke service on the TV, Mobile Phone
14:37:13 [Daniel]
+1 for raphael suggestion
14:37:15 [fsasaki]
Felix: fine with having, it, just propose to take "XBRL" out of it
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14:38:19 [Daniel]
new UC discussion:
14:41:22 [Daniel]
I am away for a while to glance at AC discussion (future W3C structure) since I am a AC of my affilition...sorry...
14:42:04 [fsasaki]
veronique: we had said that we just provide a comon means to add / query tags, across formats, but not tackle the interoperabilty between tags
14:43:44 [fsasaki]
agreement within the group
14:45:29 [fsasaki]
topic: requirements
14:46:37 [fsasaki]
14:55:08 [fsasaki]
agreement that we need a means to have the metadata both in the media and outside
14:55:54 [fsasaki]
requirement that we need to register a media type for external meta data
14:59:33 [fsasaki]
15:00:26 [raphael]
do you mean a registration at iana ?
15:00:39 [raphael]
w3c hates that .... though they have a precedent with xpointer
15:00:57 [raphael]
most of W3C folks dislike the idea
15:01:20 [fsasaki]
raphael, yes, at iana. I have done that before and I'm still alive, and Philippe is the contact to IETF
15:02:23 [fsasaki]
15:05:12 [fsasaki]
15:07:13 [fsasaki]
we will discuss this with raphael in the room
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15:14:22 [fsasaki]
15:16:28 [fsasaki]
put it on the list of requirements, see later if we have people pushing for this
15:18:06 [fsasaki]
action: Felix to go back to Karen and check about " IPTV metadata specification" - what is it, is it available for us?
15:18:06 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-22 - Go back to Karen and check about \" IPTV metadata specification\" - what is it, is it available for us? [on Felix Sasaki - due 2008-10-30].
15:19:59 [fsasaki]
going back to
15:20:17 [fsasaki]
joakim: distinction between abstract works and instances is good
15:20:27 [fsasaki]
.. not sure what "manifestation" is
15:21:56 [fsasaki]
raphael: example "work from S.B. Bach". Expression is "particular performance by an orchestra"
15:22:12 [fsasaki]
.. manifestation is "recording in a particular year". Item is "this CD"
15:23:40 [fsasaki]
raphael: we can have this model for describing things, but do we have use cases for it?
15:24:20 [fsasaki]
veronique: we have only two levels - manifestation and expression
15:24:37 [fsasaki]
s/example /example for work is /
15:26:49 [fsasaki]
.. we can have just one layer but allow people to have a specialization for using their scheme
15:34:23 [fsasaki]
discussion on usage of various models, their (wide?) usage
15:38:03 [fsasaki]
so no final resolution yet about this requirement - but we will put it in the WD and say "we are not sure about this requirement yet" and also ask the public for feedback
15:38:25 [fsasaki]
above is issue 6130
15:38:42 [fsasaki]
veronique: maybe specific to cultural heritage use case
15:40:02 [fsasaki]
.. and have this requirement as something we tackle after the first version of the ontology is done
15:40:35 [fsasaki]
topic: requirements document structure
15:45:21 [fsasaki]
on again: proposal is to have for each property just a set of getter and setter function. Question: how does that relate to (hierarchy of) properties in the ontology
15:47:22 [fsasaki]
15:48:03 [fsasaki]
having initial version of the document in the next days, around a week for review within the working group, and publication of first WD after
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16:00:41 [Daniel]
rssagent, draft minutes
16:02:26 [Daniel]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:02:26 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Daniel
16:03:27 [fsasaki]
action: Felix to explain XMLSPEC to wonsuk
16:03:27 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-23 - Explain XMLSPEC to wonsuk [on Felix Sasaki - due 2008-10-30].
16:03:48 [fsasaki]
adjourned for today
16:03:54 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate fsasaki
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16:16:30 [fsasaki]
rrsagent, bye
16:16:30 [RRSAgent]
I see 5 open action items saved in :
16:16:30 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Felix to add a link from WG page to the "still alive" MMSEM wiki pages and to make sure that everybody can edit the pages [1]
16:16:30 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
16:16:30 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: guillaume to write a use case "interaction, navigation" [2]
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recorded in
16:16:30 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Felix to create a liaison to Geolocation WG [3]
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16:16:30 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Felix to go back to Karen and check about " IPTV metadata specification" - what is it, is it available for us? [4]
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recorded in
16:16:30 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Felix to explain XMLSPEC to wonsuk [5]
16:16:30 [RRSAgent]
recorded in