06:23:00 RRSAgent has joined #mediaann 06:23:00 logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-mediaann-irc 06:23:11 meeting: MAWG - TPAC 2008 f2f 06:38:10 chair: Daniel, Felix 06:38:11 raphael has joined #mediaann 06:38:15 scribe: tbp 06:38:29 agenda: http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Annotations/wiki/Meeting_Agenda_(DRAFT) 06:41:49 herve has joined #mediaann 06:44:04 davy has joined #mediaann 06:44:17 scribe: fsasaki 06:44:24 topic: meeting start 06:44:45 http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Annotations/wiki/Meeting_Agenda_(DRAFT) 06:46:17 erik has joined #mediaann 06:48:34 frank has joined #mediaann 06:50:55 guillaume has joined #mediaann 06:51:31 FD has joined #mediaAnn 06:51:43 scribe: raphael 06:51:58 TOPIC: Introduction of the participants 06:52:29 Daniel: Chair of the group, work in Samsung, first time participation in W3C activities 06:52:50 ... co-chair an internet protocol WG in IET>F 06:53:01 s/IET>F/IETF 06:53:54 ??: Research Institute in Korea 06:54:39 Joakim: Erikson (operating system for mobile phones), interest in IPTV 06:54:52 ... background in image classification, indexing and retrieval 06:55:28 Veronique: Vrij Universiteit in Amsterdam, work in the Cultural Heritage Domain 06:56:02 Frank: assistant professor in UvA in Amsterdam, worked in the MPEG-7 WG (responsible for DDL) 06:56:38 Fabio: Paris, Thomson, interest in video over P2P 06:57:34 Erik: project manager in IBBT in Ghent (Belgium), co-chair of the Media Fragment WG, work with broadcasters and in the cultural heritage domain 06:58:02 Davy: researcher in IBBT Ghent, multimedia annotation 06:58:45 Raphael: was co-chair of MMSEM XG, now co-chair of media-fragments WG. Interested on NLP apllications and multimedia. 06:59:00 .. used to work previously in cultural domain setting 06:59:41 wonsuk has joined #mediaann 06:59:44 Guillaume: South Africa, interest in languages, content management systems ... would like to consider videos as real structured documents 07:00:25 Felix: W3C staff contact, background in using XML-based or RDF-based languages for representing linguistics resources 07:00:45 ... will leave W3C in March, there will be another staff contact 07:01:48 Silvia: run her own company in Australia, did Annodex, CMML, TemporalURI, work with Mozilla on accessibility of Video, active in the Open Source community 07:02:06 Colm Doyle: technical director of Blinx, a video company 07:02:25 nessy has joined #mediaann 07:02:29 Frank: observer from Canon research in France, what could be the link with the Media Fragment WG 07:02:40 Hervé: also observer from Canon 07:03:12 David: Expway, expert in binarization of XML data, interest in media annotations 07:03:31 Johan: observer from Canon, want to get an idea of what is going on here 07:03:49 present: Daniel, Wunsok, Joakim, Veronique, Frank, Fabio, Erik, Davy, Felix, Silvia, Colm, Frank (Canon), Herve, Daniel (Expway), Johan 07:04:55 Daniel: going through the charter and the goals of the group 07:05:01 s/??/Wunsok 07:05:15 topic: charter review 07:05:21 s/Wunsok/Wonsuk 07:05:52 youenn has joined #mediaann 07:06:09 Daniel: goals is to provide a minimal ontology for representing metadata + to provide an API for accessing video metadata 07:06:17 ... timeline is sharp 07:06:56 ... goal of this f2f is to have quickly first draft documents 07:07:07 Felix: there will be a lot of missing pieces, this is the purpose 07:07:24 ... we want to get quickly feedback from a wider community 07:07:58 Daniel: shows the wiki page 07:08:14 ... goes through the Use Case & Requirements wiki page 07:08:43 ... we will have another F2F meeting, in Ghent (Belgium) on 9 and 10 December 07:10:01 Felix: 2 more people join 07:10:16 present+ Joerg 07:10:53 Heuir: AC Rep of Siemens, Munich (DE), I was active in MPEG for descibing content of audio-visual content 07:10:54 present+ Karen 07:10:54 s/Johan/Youenn/ 07:11:16 Karen Myers: W3C 07:11:44 scribe: Felix 07:11:52 topic: MMSEM presentation 07:12:52 slides at http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/mmsem/talks/MUSE2007/ 07:14:07 cgi-irc has joined #mediaann 07:20:14 joakim has joined #mediaann 07:28:05 joakim: looking at liaisons - who is member of I3A? 07:28:20 raphael: adobe, canon, many camera people 07:28:27 .. similiar membership as IPTC 07:28:53 .. in I3A there is four blocks of meta data 07:29:28 .. problem is that I3A (DIG35 metadata) is licensed, we had asked for tools for processing it, but there isn't 07:30:04 s/in I3A/difference between I3A and IPTC metadata is that in I3A/ 07:32:45 action: Felix to add a link from WG page to the "still alive" MMSEM wiki pages and to make sure that everybody can edit the pages 07:32:46 Created ACTION-20 - Add a link from WG page to the \"still alive\" MMSEM wiki pages and to make sure that everybody can edit the pages [on Felix Sasaki - due 2008-10-30]. 07:33:21 scribenick: erik 07:33:25 topic: questionnaire on formats in scope / out of scope 07:33:33 scribe: erik 07:34:27 felix goes over questionaire in-scope vs out-of-scope 07:35:19 s/questionaire/questionnaire 07:38:03 joakim: linking between standards is desirable 07:39:12 joakim/guillaume: is thumbnail data or metadata? it depends on UC 07:39:41 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-mediaann-minutes.html fsasaki 07:40:09 present+ guillaume 07:42:45 daniel/raphael: what is real definition of "media" in this WG? 07:43:40 daniel: primarily img, audio, video from questionnaire 07:45:22 felix: methodology of interrelating existing ontologies might be good way to look at things 07:46:07 veronique: maybe start from UC and find out what standards we need to describe 07:51:54 frank: what do we really want? ... not excluding media (cfr. exif) 07:55:18 daniel: focus should be video 07:56:01 raphael: "temporal media" covers better the scope 07:58:12 felix: discussion formats in-scope vs. out-of-scope should be video central (but the it should be looked at format by format if there's a good link) 08:00:37 erik: within Media Fragments WG, video is key (together with audio, image & timed text) 08:01:50 frank: even broadening and maybe considering haptic media too 08:05:59 raphael: motto keep it simple ... thus parts of MPEG-7 too low-level (color histograms) 08:06:55 ... try to see overlap between all standards, then you probably already have some top-level stuff to start with 08:08:39 consensus out-of-scope: MPEG-21, SVG, SMIL 08:21:23 Daniel has joined #mediaann 08:23:49 RRSAgent, draft minutes 08:23:49 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-mediaann-minutes.html erik 08:31:47 Kangchan has joined #mediaann 08:39:21 fp has joined #mediaann 08:40:16 topic: presentations on specific formats 08:40:41 raphael presenting on IPTC photo meta data 08:40:50 scribe: fsasaki 08:41:11 raphael: white paper IPTC photo metadata white paper in 2007 08:41:22 .. IPTC photo metadata become a standard recently 08:41:39 .. white paper authored by photo / image industry 08:42:00 youenn has joined #mediaann 08:42:19 .. blocks: format descriptive, administrative, rights, technical 08:42:34 .. each block points to some properties 08:42:40 .. e.g. to EXIF 08:43:08 raphael describes some properties 08:43:18 herve has joined #mediaann 08:43:25 raphael: properties have names or controlled vocabularies 08:43:33 .. e.g. for location they have geo names URI 08:43:54 .. for person they propose controlled vocabularies, e.g. wikipedia 08:44:42 .. in administrative: lots of things from EXIF, location from others 08:45:21 .. rights metadata: they re-use plus 08:45:34 .. for technical properties: EXIF + some additional properties 08:45:56 .. physical type of original is enumerated list 08:46:06 joakim: how about different video formats? 08:46:13 raphael: it is for still images, not video 08:46:34 rapahael: the white paper was from 2007. Open issue: how to identify images? 08:46:56 .. they use URIs to identify images 08:47:30 .. they developed their own URI (HTTP URI) based scheme, not registered with IANA, but they have registered other schemes 08:47:47 .. all metadata is embedded in a file, e.g. header of JPEG file 08:47:56 .. currently anybody can modify the metadata 08:47:56 Karen has joined #mediaann 08:48:03 .. so they don't know if somebody has modified the data 08:48:40 .. it happens often in the image industry, that authors change the date of an image to have it published 08:49:01 .. so the publisher want to have waterproof techniques to avoid these problems 08:49:39 frank: a field said "maxium resultion is ..." 08:50:02 .. how do they handle cases where the resultion does not fit? 08:50:28 raphael: currently they copy the metadata, so they have the danger of inconsitencies 08:52:08 going through the fields 08:53:01 no headline field 08:54:35 description - as a general field 08:56:01 location, person, event 08:59:06 raphael: encourage users to use a controlled vocabulary, say "this SHOULD be used", not with a MUST 09:01:30 guillaume: would be good to separate description and caption, also in the video 09:03:06 raphael: description is general 09:03:49 Colm: there is captioning, close captioning, summary, OCRing as another track, logos, facial recognition etc. 09:04:05 .. these all needs indiviudal tags 09:05:28 guillaume: hard to derive properties from these, better to describe properties from this 09:05:59 Joakim, Raphael: better to have general properties that can be specialized 09:06:24 frank: who, what, when, why, where are important 5 "w" 09:08:49 raphael: for some properties there might be multiple occurences, that is different cardinality 09:12:07 nessy has joined #mediaann 09:14:16 there are different kinds of "locations", agreement that a location field is necessary, still need to decide whether one field, 2, more, ... 09:16:32 and how (hierachically) the properties should be structured 09:17:02 distinguish cataloging properties versus descriptive properties 09:17:35 ... thus not that bad to have different who, where, when, etc. for where the media has been captured, versus what it depicts 09:20:44 raphael: "who, when, what, where" 09:21:34 ... see dublin core 09:22:00 Dublin Core new Task Metadadata: http://dublincore.org/kernelwiki/FrontPage?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=KernelMetadataERCApplicationProfiles1_4a.htm 09:22:23 s/metadadata/metadata 09:23:17 veronique: should properties here be also linked together in this group? 09:23:40 daniel: after verifying relationship between standards we can have a common ontology in W3C 09:24:09 .. but we cannot have much more 09:24:14 +1 for Véronique: this is most likely the hardest issue this group will have to solve 09:24:28 felix: maybe not even mapping, just describe what is commonly used 09:24:46 I would like to relationships between the properties ... but add serious complexity 09:24:59 s/like to/like to have 09:29:32 daniel: assuming that metadata type A has a "film" field, and type B has a "movie" field. We want to be able to work across these, right? 09:30:25 +1 for Guillaume: modeling provenance of the metadata is important too 09:30:37 guillaume: do we want to document where metadata came from? 09:31:26 frank has joined #mediaann 09:35:40 example in terms of API: having a method "getLength" which gives you back the length and the origin (type) of metadata 09:40:12 Felix reviews document from Metadata Working Group 09:48:22 I'm not sure we should go into a conflict resolution mechanism 09:49:38 Felix: should we also go for such a conflict resolution mechanism as in the mwp guidance doc? 09:50:02 I would prefer to have the ontology modeling all the necessary provenance information ... and let the application deals with that 09:50:13 agreement to have no such conflict resolution mechanism 09:50:33 frank has joined #mediaann 09:53:38 topic: Top-Down Modelling Approach 09:57:18 herve has joined #mediaann 10:03:22 http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Annotations/wiki/Top-Down_Modelling_Approach 10:07:22 Felix: is this an alternative approach to the bottom-up approach? 10:07:37 frank: no, we should do both at the same time 10:10:36 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-mediaann-minutes.html fsasaki 11:33:52 youenn has joined #mediaann 11:36:11 Daniel has joined #mediaann 11:42:14 guillaume has joined #mediaann 11:42:47 fsasaki has joined #mediaann 11:43:11 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-mediaann-minutes.html fsasaki 11:44:20 frank continues presentation on "top down" appraoch 11:44:55 FD has joined #mediaAnn 11:46:22 wonsuk has joined #mediaann 11:46:48 herve has joined #mediaann 11:47:41 raphael has joined #mediaann 11:48:03 veronique: search and annotation are two parts of the same coin 11:48:06 frank: true 11:49:40 Kangchan has joined #mediaann 11:50:34 frank: starting "top down" will help us to get the highlights we need 11:52:09 frank: proposal is to achieve a minimal set of properties by looking at use cases, overlap when, see what standards have, is that what we need, and so we link to them 11:54:36 guillaume: do we first need to make a list of tasks we want to support? 11:54:47 frank: I think such a list would help to set priorities 11:56:03 joakim: the "browse" task is different from "search" 11:56:58 veronique: search and browse is like accessing the data 11:57:07 frank: analyze is in the direction of "working with material" 12:03:12 felix: propose to take the material in http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Annotations/wiki/Top-Down_Modelling_Approach in the requirements document into account 12:04:05 veronique: link between different tasks and existing standards can be a way to describe fields of different standards 12:06:04 agreement to put the material into the requirements document 12:07:37 guillaume has joined #mediaann 12:08:10 nessy has joined #mediaann 12:08:30 youenn has joined #mediaann 12:09:35 going thgough our use cases one by one and editing by wiki pages 12:10:17 Cultural Heritage UC 12:10:31 s/thgough/through 12:13:55 not only audio and video for the cultural heritage, but also we should think about others media types ? 12:14:24 Felix is drawing on the board 12:15:20 UC: http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Annotations/wiki/CulturalHeritageUC 12:16:20 getting a data for annotation voca. how to use and change it can be parts of API draft 12:17:06 Felix: Example of a get API to get date information: getDate(URI, vocabulary) 12:17:39 Felix: vocabulary parameter could be "EXIF" for example 12:20:01 just moving US discussion forward, and consider API issue later 12:20:14 s/US/UC 12:20:40 coming back to the UC review... 12:22:13 some of low lever description can be parts of requirements...ex, interop. search, deploymet, fragment. etc 12:23:45 fragment parts may belong to another group (e.g., media fragment WG) 12:24:41 where to store URI and fragmented information ? 12:27:10 next UC: http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Annotations/wiki/VideoUC 12:28:48 fabiop has joined #mediaann 12:33:43 discussing "The goal of this WG is to clean up this jungle and make our ontology support of commonly used properties for describing video content." 12:35:24 changing the above text into "the bridging of commonly used properties for..." 12:40:35 action: guillaume to write a use case "interaction, navigation" 12:40:35 Sorry, couldn't find user - guillaume 12:44:34 newly adding "We do not aim to solve the semantic mismatch problem but leave it to the schemes which are used for annotation/retrievel" at the bottom of Example 12:45:31 davy has joined #mediaann 12:50:08 new text proposed: We do not aim to solve the semantic mismatch problem but leave that to the application who creates the annotation / retrieval. 13:04:15 mapping between the different metadata may take palce in the Ontology document of the WG later. 13:06:09 FD has joined #mediaAnn 13:09:57 UC: http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Annotations/wiki/MobileUC 13:15:37 Mobile use case already widely spreaded in the world... 13:16:19 geolocation info when contents generated...and use location are both valuable aspects. 13:17:14 geolocation in the web, for example: life logging... 13:17:16 Raphael: I would point to a liaison with http://www.w3.org/2008/geolocation/ 13:17:40 raphael, good point 13:19:36 looking at Geolocation WG charter and homepage on the screen 13:20:02 action: Felix to create a liaison to Geolocation WG 13:20:02 Created ACTION-21 - Create a liaison to Geolocation WG [on Felix Sasaki - due 2008-10-30]. 13:22:04 discussion: Support media adaptation for mobile device capabilities such as bandwidth, physical screen, audio and text. Media adaptation depending on business models and user preferences. 13:24:05 targeting for describing mobile device characteristics (screen size, codec style, etc)...in scope or out of scope ? 13:24:52 related activities are in OMA (Open Mobile Alliance) today 13:27:42 how to describe device characteristics is pretty different from media scope 13:28:49 dinner tonight together...:-) 13:29:53 davy has joined #mediaann 13:31:24 PLING joint meeting tomorrow about Multimedia sharing 13:31:54 FD has joined #mediaAnn 13:32:15 Mobile TV is deleted... 13:33:42 rrsagent, draft minutes 13:33:42 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-mediaann-minutes.html Daniel 13:42:41 VeroniqueM has joined #mediaann 13:55:07 also, Geographic Location/Privacy WG in IETF: http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/geopriv-charter.html 14:02:57 nessy has joined #mediaann 14:03:33 guillaume has joined #mediaann 14:03:56 resume: UC: http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Annotations/wiki/MultimediaPresentationUC 14:04:12 7:40 at lobby for dinner tonight 14:04:21 s/40 /30 . 14:04:24 youenn has joined #mediaann 14:04:24 s/40 /30 / 14:07:53 adding a new sentence: "The WG is likely not to concentrate on this use case in the beginning but might come back to it later" 14:08:32 UC: http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Annotations/wiki/RecommendUC 14:10:48 going through UC 14:14:16 Daniel: amazon provides a service where users can search through data aggregated from different service 14:14:42 .. such a service is similar to what we want to achieve with this UC 14:16:33 changing the title of UC: Recommendation across different media type 14:16:37 Daniel: title of UC is better "Recommendation across different media types " 14:18:10 Daniel: for this UC metadata descriptions need to be unified 14:20:16 Joakim: AMG has a lot of metadata as a relational database, about movies, music, games, which is interrelated 14:21:36 wonsuk: searching videos in youtube, you get recommendations based on the video you choose 14:22:14 .. our ontology could help that youtube could provide yahoo and other videos 14:23:27 new UC discussion: http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Annotations/wiki/MultimediaSearchUC 14:25:22 question: leave it out or keep as it is...there are several relative parts in others UCs 14:25:37 agreement to cover this UC seperatly but cover it as part of other UC and the "top down" section 14:25:53 s/seperatly /not seperatly / 14:26:25 new UC: multimedia sharing 14:26:33 no initial text for this UC 14:27:13 agreement not to cover this UC seperately 14:27:51 new UC discussion: http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Annotations/wiki/PhotoUC 14:30:26 agreement to take this as an input to our main UC video into account 14:30:48 new UC discussion: http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Annotations/wiki/MusicUC 14:32:42 changed the title into *Audio* 14:32:54 agreement to take this as an input to our main UC video into account 14:33:14 new UC discussion: http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Annotations/wiki/NewsUC 14:34:40 +1 for music -> audio 14:34:43 Veronique: moving it to the relared UC (e.g., museum or others...) to make broader scope 14:35:11 news is a domain specific use case ... not sure it should stand 14:35:24 ... or might be like cultural heritage UC 14:36:17 TimeText for karaoke service on the TV, Mobile Phone 14:37:13 +1 for raphael suggestion 14:37:15 Felix: fine with having, it, just propose to take "XBRL" out of it 14:38:04 frank has joined #mediaann 14:38:19 new UC discussion: http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Annotations/wiki/TaggingUC 14:41:22 I am away for a while to glance at AC discussion (future W3C structure) since I am a AC of my affilition...sorry... 14:42:04 veronique: we had said that we just provide a comon means to add / query tags, across formats, but not tackle the interoperabilty between tags 14:43:44 agreement within the group 14:45:29 topic: requirements 14:46:37 http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6109 14:55:08 agreement that we need a means to have the metadata both in the media and outside 14:55:54 requirement that we need to register a media type for external meta data 14:59:33 http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6113 15:00:26 do you mean a registration at iana ? 15:00:39 w3c hates that .... though they have a precedent with xpointer 15:00:57 most of W3C folks dislike the idea 15:01:20 raphael, yes, at iana. I have done that before and I'm still alive, and Philippe is the contact to IETF 15:02:23 http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6130 15:05:12 discussing http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-annotation/2008Sep/0085.html 15:07:13 we will discuss this with raphael in the room 15:11:20 davy has joined #mediaann 15:14:22 discussing http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6066 15:16:28 put it on the list of requirements, see later if we have people pushing for this 15:18:06 action: Felix to go back to Karen and check about " IPTV metadata specification" - what is it, is it available for us? 15:18:06 Created ACTION-22 - Go back to Karen and check about \" IPTV metadata specification\" - what is it, is it available for us? [on Felix Sasaki - due 2008-10-30]. 15:19:59 going back to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-annotation/2008Sep/0085.html 15:20:17 joakim: distinction between abstract works and instances is good 15:20:27 .. not sure what "manifestation" is 15:21:56 raphael: example "work from S.B. Bach". Expression is "particular performance by an orchestra" 15:22:12 .. manifestation is "recording in a particular year". Item is "this CD" 15:23:40 raphael: we can have this model for describing things, but do we have use cases for it? 15:24:20 veronique: we have only two levels - manifestation and expression 15:24:37 s/example /example for work is / 15:26:49 .. we can have just one layer but allow people to have a specialization for using their scheme 15:34:23 discussion on usage of various models, their (wide?) usage 15:38:03 so no final resolution yet about this requirement - but we will put it in the WD and say "we are not sure about this requirement yet" and also ask the public for feedback 15:38:25 above is issue 6130 15:38:42 veronique: maybe specific to cultural heritage use case 15:40:02 .. and have this requirement as something we tackle after the first version of the ontology is done 15:40:35 topic: requirements document structure 15:45:21 on http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6113 again: proposal is to have for each property just a set of getter and setter function. Question: how does that relate to (hierarchy of) properties in the ontology 15:47:22 s/structure/timeline/ 15:48:03 having initial version of the document in the next days, around a week for review within the working group, and publication of first WD after 15:49:45 VeroniqueM has left #mediaann 15:51:10 davy has left #mediaann 15:54:52 Kangchan has left #mediaann 15:57:20 JonathanJ has joined #mediaann 15:57:34 raphael has left #mediaann 15:58:49 JonathanJ has joined #mediaann 16:00:41 rssagent, draft minutes 16:02:26 rrsagent, draft minutes 16:02:26 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-mediaann-minutes.html Daniel 16:03:27 action: Felix to explain XMLSPEC to wonsuk 16:03:27 Created ACTION-23 - Explain XMLSPEC to wonsuk [on Felix Sasaki - due 2008-10-30]. 16:03:48 adjourned for today 16:03:54 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-mediaann-minutes.html fsasaki 16:08:31 nessy has joined #mediaann 16:16:30 rrsagent, bye 16:16:30 I see 5 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-mediaann-actions.rdf : 16:16:30 ACTION: Felix to add a link from WG page to the "still alive" MMSEM wiki pages and to make sure that everybody can edit the pages [1] 16:16:30 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-mediaann-irc#T07-32-45 16:16:30 ACTION: guillaume to write a use case "interaction, navigation" [2] 16:16:30 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-mediaann-irc#T12-40-35 16:16:30 ACTION: Felix to create a liaison to Geolocation WG [3] 16:16:30 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-mediaann-irc#T13-20-02 16:16:30 ACTION: Felix to go back to Karen and check about " IPTV metadata specification" - what is it, is it available for us? [4] 16:16:30 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-mediaann-irc#T15-18-06 16:16:30 ACTION: Felix to explain XMLSPEC to wonsuk [5] 16:16:30 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-mediaann-irc#T16-03-27