IRC log of html-wg on 2008-10-23

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to
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07:12:26 [DanC_lap]
07:12:27 [pimpbot]
Title: Final agenda for Oct. 23-24 face-to-face meeting from Michael(tm) Smith on 2008-10-22 ( from October 2008) (at
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07:17:07 [DanC_lap]
Present: Dean Jackson, Ian Hickson, Sean Medero, gsnedders, Karl Dubost, Lachlan Hunt ...
07:17:38 [MikeSmith]
scribenick: DanC_lap
07:18:06 [DanC_lap]
Cynthia, Murray, Anne, Julian, Dan, Adrian, Chris W, Mike Smith
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Cooper, Allen, Janina [sp?], Dave Baron, [help?], kai hendry [sp?], PLH
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ArtB, Noah M., [help?], [help?], ylafon
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07:18:51 [DanC_lap]
... OT
07:18:55 [smedero]
s/Sean Medero/Shawn Medero/
07:19:02 [DanC_lap]
07:19:05 [pimpbot]
Title: Final agenda for Oct. 23-24 face-to-face meeting from Michael(tm) Smith on 2008-10-22 ( from October 2008) (at
07:19:09 [gsnedders]
s/gsnedders/Geoffrey Sneddon/
07:19:15 [MikeSmith]
07:19:16 [pimpbot]
Title: Final agenda for Oct. 23-24 face-to-face meeting from Michael(tm) Smith on 2008-10-22 ( from October 2008) (at
07:23:30 [DanC_lap]
MikeSmith reviews agenda
07:23:42 [DanC_lap]
Cynthia: unconference topic: implicit accessibility roles/topics
07:23:50 [DanC_lap]
Lachlan: authring guide
07:26:34 [dbaron]
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07:27:58 [DanC_lap]
MikeSmith: exec4 is reserved for unconference sessions this PM
07:29:33 [DanC_lap]
07:30:16 [mjs]
ooh, implicit accessibility rules
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07:30:21 [mjs]
07:31:38 [DanC_lap]
MikeSmith: re testing, I suggest we update the annotations on the spec about which parts are stable, tested, etc.
07:32:21 [anne]
they are inside the WHATWG version of the spec DanC_lap
07:32:27 [anne]
in the sideline
07:32:48 [DanC_lap]
there's some php interface to update them, yes?
07:33:08 [Hixie]
perl, but yes
07:33:23 [Hixie]
alt-double-click a section to update that section
07:33:46 [Hixie]
you have to log in first (link at the top right) -- if you don't have an account (most people who have sent feedback automatically have one set up) let me know
07:33:54 [DanC_lap]
hmm... one day I'm pretty sure I figured out how to just GET the annotations
07:34:11 [anne]
there's an API somewhere
07:35:53 [DanC_lap]
regrets+ Ben Millard
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07:36:38 [Hixie]
07:36:59 [Hixie]
DanC_lap: i think there's documentation but i can't find it at the moment. drop me a mail if you want me to hussle some up
07:37:55 [DanC_lap]
the docs were sufficient last time I needed it
07:38:53 [DanC_lap]
Topic: ISSUE-13 handling-http-401-status
07:39:37 [gsnedders]
07:39:39 [pimpbot]
Title: WHATWG Issues List (at
07:39:52 [DanC_lap]
JR: I saw discussion on the whatwg mailing list about authentication...
07:40:01 [Hixie]
07:40:03 [pimpbot]
Title: WHATWG Issues List (at
07:40:13 [DanC_lap]
... web designers rarely used http authentication...
07:40:22 [DanC_lap]
... if we could [missed], it might help
07:40:42 [karl]
q+ algiman
07:40:51 [DanC_lap]
Hixie: I have a pile of mail on this authentication issue
07:40:58 [Julian_Reschke]
07:40:59 [karl]
q- algiman
07:41:00 [pimpbot]
Title: ISSUE-13 - HTML Issue Tracking Tracker (at
07:41:02 [karl]
q+ algilman
07:41:03 [DanC_lap]
Anne: it's probably important to handle logout at the same time
07:41:28 [karl]
07:41:50 [DanC_lap]
Hixie: this would make a good unconference session topic... I'd like to brainstorm... I haven't seen a good transition strategy
07:41:55 [karl]
ack algilman
07:42:20 [DanC_lap]
agenda+ implicit accessibility roles [Cynthia]
07:42:28 [DanC_lap]
agenda + authoring guide [Lachy]
07:42:40 [DanC_lap]
agenda + authentication brainstorm [JR/IH]
07:42:58 [DanC_lap]
AlG: want to bookmark some connection... [missed]
07:43:22 [DanC_lap]
Hixie: while we're at it, we'd like people to use digest rather than basic
07:43:46 [DanC_lap]
JR: yes, there's a bit of a chicken-and-egg deadlock between http protocol design and browser development
07:44:23 [DanC_lap]
present+ Al Gilman
07:44:32 [DanC_lap]
... co-chair WAI PF WG
07:45:32 [DanC_lap]
Topic: ISSUE-20 table-headers
07:45:36 [DanC_lap]
regrets+ Joshue
07:46:17 [Laura]
regrets+ Laura
07:46:34 [DanC_lap]
Al: issue summary: data presented in tables depends on context...
07:47:09 [DanC_lap]
... in a visual scan, it's usually easy to scan to the top of the column or start of row to get context
07:47:27 [DanC_lap]
... we [WAI?] have been asking that the context be machine readable...
07:47:44 [DanC_lap]
... assistive technology provides a guesture for asking for this context for a cell
07:48:44 [DanC_lap]
Al: we've seen some proposals... we're interested in deployment in browsers of some algorithms
07:49:25 [DanC_lap]
MS: discussion supports the utility of the functionality in general...
07:49:51 [MichaelC]
q+ to suggest the use cases need to be further understood before getting into conformance rules
07:50:04 [DanC_lap]
... the disagreement in the discussion is about whether the @headers attribute may refer to <td> elements or is constrained to <th>
07:50:32 [DanC_lap]
[refinements from LH/HS... too fast for scribe... can you guys write them down?]
07:50:40 [anne]
(From what I gathered during a PF meeting having headers for headers would be enough.)
07:50:53 [Laura]
07:50:55 [pimpbot]
Title: HTML/IssueTableHeaders - ESW Wiki (at
07:50:57 [anne]
(Example why that is needed anyway: )
07:50:59 [pimpbot]
Title: layout height attributes on body and html elements (at
07:51:16 [DanC_lap]
AlG: some [hallway? PF?] discussion made progress... [something about table header chaining]
07:51:41 [DanC_lap]
MS: I'd like to have Josh before we get too much further in
07:52:01 [DanC_lap]
Hixie: I'm about 86 messages behind on discussion of use cases for this design issue
07:52:38 [DanC_lap]
AlG: see "function and impacts" thread
07:52:41 [smedero]
Al's email:
07:52:42 [pimpbot]
Title: function and impacts (was: scope and headers reform) from Al Gilman on 2008-09-14 ( from September 2008) (at
07:52:55 [DanC_lap]
AlG: see "function and impacts" thread for a re-cap and high-level framing
07:53:28 [DanC_lap]
MC: the discussion around use cases seem more productive than discussion of tags/attributes/conformance
07:53:41 [MichaelC]
ack me
07:53:41 [Zakim]
MichaelC, you wanted to suggest the use cases need to be further understood before getting into conformance rules
07:53:58 [MikeSmith]
07:54:26 [DanC_lap]
Hixie: quite. I always consider use cases before making markup design decisions
07:54:48 [MichaelC]
q+ to respond use cases have evolved, so nittie-gritties need revisiting
07:55:01 [DanC_lap]
MM: there's a lot of existing practice since 1994... why not use that?
07:55:13 [MichaelC]
07:55:25 [DanC_lap]
Hixie: we're re-considering design of many[all?] HTML details in the light of another 10 years of experience
07:55:59 [DanC_lap]
AlG: to recap this week's discussion briefly, there's room for improvement... what's in the field is arduous for authors
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MS: so I hear relevant parties are more likely to be available tomorrow PM
07:57:29 [DanC_lap]
AlG: but I'm not sure I have Josh tomorrow
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08:00:12 [DanC_lap]
08:00:32 [DanC_lap]
agenda + table headers attribute [MS]
08:00:48 [DanC_lap]
agenda + SVG in HTML [MS]
08:03:05 [DanC_lap]
Topic: ISSUE-37 html-svg-mathml
08:04:04 [DanC_lap]
MS: SVG WG asked for more discussion before releasing a draft including an earlier proposal
08:04:15 [DanC_lap]
MM: and MathML?
08:05:18 [DanC_lap]
MM: MathML advocates seem satisfied with current draft on MathML integration
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08:06:06 [smedero]
SVG WG's counter proposal to the HTML WG is on their wiki:
08:06:08 [pimpbot]
Title: SVG in text-html - SVG (at
08:06:09 [DanC_lap]
s/MM: MathML/MS: MathML/
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08:07:05 [DanC_lap]
Topic: ISSUE-41 Decentralized-extensibility
08:07:10 [gsnedders]
The current draft is AFAIK
08:07:11 [pimpbot]
Title: SVG and HTML (at
08:07:53 [DanC_lap]
MS: the tech plenary discussion yesterday touched on this.
08:08:22 [DanC_lap]
AlG: is the TAG session intended to cover this?
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08:09:09 [DanC_lap]
MS: given the time, the TAG expressed a preference to discuss modularization. Some TAG members particularly interested in modularization aren't here
08:10:39 [DanC_lap]
s/in modularization/in distributed extensibility/
08:11:14 [anne] (Member-only)
08:11:33 [anne]
(in response to gsnedders)
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08:15:08 [smedero]
Julian_Reschke: didn't you say you found a new info on ISSUE-54? That there was a similar problem with ASP.NET?
08:15:28 [Julian_Reschke]
on issue 52: do we have a separate issue for other issues for current HTML generators, such as wrt to new empty tags?
08:15:57 [Julian_Reschke]
smedero: yes, the "xslt-compat" name is misleading; it's needed for more content producers
08:16:26 [DanC_lap]
no, I haven't seen a separate issue on new empty tags, though I'd want to see a more concrete problem/issue before adding it to the list
08:16:28 [smedero]
Julian_Reschke: have you sent an email on that anywhere? I was going to link that up to the issue... if not, nevermind.
08:16:31 [Hixie]
we could change it to "legacy-compat" or some such
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08:16:46 [DanC_lap]
eek... "legacy-compat" sounds like a huge swap
08:16:51 [Hixie]
that's the idea :-)
08:16:52 [Julian_Reschke]
smedero: can't recall; maybe it was mentioned on IRC somewhere
08:16:57 [DanC_lap]
swamp, I meant
08:17:11 [Hixie]
we need something that sounds bad so that people don't think it's the more cool thing
08:17:11 [DanC_lap]
MS: tomorrow at 2pm for SVG/HTML?
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08:18:14 [DanC_lap]
agenda 5 = SVG in text/html 2pm Fri [Doug]
08:18:48 [DanC_lap]
agenda 5 = SVG in text/html 2pm Fri exec 7 [Doug]
08:19:00 [DanC_lap]
agenda 5 = SVG in text/html 2pm Fri rm exec 7 [Doug]
08:19:20 [anne]
Hixie, maybe just "compat"
08:19:33 [DanC_lap]
MS: how many ppl? 12-ish
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08:19:57 [DanC_lap]
"compat" with what? more specific, please
08:20:27 [anne]
tools that can't generate <!DOCTYPE html>
08:20:32 [DanC_lap]
08:21:01 [DanC_lap]
ah. that suggest overlap with issue-4 "HTML Versioning and DOCTYPEs"
08:21:14 [DanC_lap]
08:21:16 [DanC_lap]
08:22:35 [DanC_lap]
agenda 4 = table headers attribute 4pm-4:45pm Thu [Joshue]
08:24:14 [fantasai]
ScribeNick: fantasai
08:24:29 [fantasai]
Mike: Next major issue is modularization of the spec
08:24:36 [fantasai]
Mike: The TAG has concerns about this
08:24:43 [fantasai]
Anne: Shouldn't we discuss other topics?
08:24:51 [fantasai]
08:24:56 [fantasai]
Mike: About the authentication discussion
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Mike asks about scheduling
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08:25:59 [fantasai]
Mike: So from 4:45 until ... 5:30?
08:26:06 [fantasai]
Mike: For the authentication discussion
08:26:31 [DanC_lap]
agenda 3 = authentication brainstorm 4:45pm Thu [JR/IH]
08:26:43 [fantasai]
Mike: So just before we take a break and before we have the TAG members show up
08:27:00 [fantasai]
Mike: Does anybody have any thoughts on modularization?
08:27:10 [fantasai]
Mike: So the issue is .. we've had this discussion a lot ourselves
08:27:19 [fantasai]
Mike: I think there's general consensus to split out certain parts of the spec
08:27:35 [fantasai]
Mike: The issue is do we have editors that are willing to work on these separate parts. That's been the iggest blocking factor
08:27:48 [fantasai]
Mike: ... discussion with the TAG. That's where we're at as a WG with the issue
08:27:58 [fantasai]
Mike: Any other thoughts on that before we talk with TAG?
08:28:08 [fantasai]
?: Do you want to take a shot at explaining that?
08:28:28 [fantasai]
?: Whether there's one editor or three editors, there's still one document or multiple documents
08:28:28 [DanC_lap]
08:28:53 [fantasai]
Hixie explains that the overhead of editing multiple specs is high
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08:29:03 [fantasai]
MM: That's not my experience
08:29:06 [fantasai]
??: It is mine
08:29:11 [Julian_Reschke]
nor mime
08:29:16 [DanC_lap]
08:29:18 [DanC_lap]
08:29:32 [Julian_Reschke]
08:29:34 [fantasai]
Mike: We have had some discussions about modularization, but the resolution -- or non-resolution -- was that we haven't had people volunteer to take on other parts of the spec
08:29:39 [fantasai]
Mike: A specific example of this is ...
08:29:47 [DanC_lap]
Marcos Caceres
08:29:50 [fantasai]
Mike: A large part of the spec is the spec for the window object
08:29:55 [fantasai]
Mike: It used to be a separate spec
08:30:04 [fantasai]
Mike: And we agree it should be a separate spec
08:30:14 [fantasai]
Mike: But we didn't have an editor, so we merged it into the HTML5 spec
08:30:22 [fantasai]
Mike: There are alots of things in HTML5 that rely on it
08:30:29 [fantasai]
Mike: If we had someone to take over ...
08:30:55 [fantasai]
??: ...
08:31:02 [fantasai]
Hixie: The window part is a big part of the spec
08:31:06 [fantasai]
Mike: what about ..
08:31:12 [fantasai]
Hixie: there's too much stuff that relies on it
08:31:46 [fantasai]
Hixie: The remote event target would be a better choice. That's a reasonably self-contained thing. i'd estimate 5 hours a week for a few months and then 1 hour a week for a year
08:32:15 [fantasai]
??: ... might get more people to volunteer if you have chunks like 5 hours / week
08:32:20 [fantasai]
Hixie: The more trivial sections are done
08:32:35 [fantasai]
Hixie: Stuff like canvas etc. that are 40 hours a week for a year, those are where we really need eidtors
08:32:39 [fantasai]
Hixie: Particularly rendering view
08:32:44 [fantasai]
Hixie: that really is a separate document
08:32:55 [fantasai]
Hixie: The section that defines legacy attributes
08:33:07 [fantasai]
Mike: If you look at the current spec, that section says "to come"
08:33:15 [fantasai]
Hixie: It didn't really make sense to define it until about now.
08:33:29 [fantasai]
Mike: What we expect from having a discusison with the TAG, one of the tangible things we can talk about
08:33:58 [fantasai]
Mike: ... we do have time set aside tomorrow to go through and look at the spec section by section and decide which parts of it are mature and stable with an eye towards what we're ready to write testcases for.
08:34:11 [fantasai]
Mike: But also look at what sections we can split out and look for editors for
08:34:23 [fantasai]
Mike: Then we could make proposals about parts of the spec that could be taken on by separate editors
08:34:39 [fantasai]
Mike: And if we have a concrete list, an assesment about which parts and what level of effort would be needed to maintain that part of the spec
08:34:49 [fantasai]
Mika: Then we could maybe get more people interested in parts of the spec
08:35:04 [fantasai]
Hixie: I've been privately approaching people. Also someone from Opera recently asked about working on the timer starts
08:35:13 [fantasai]
Hixie: Some sections are marked "i'm looking for an editor"
08:35:25 [fantasai]
Hixie: Even then it's taken me a year to find someone for timer
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08:35:45 [fantasai]
Hixie: Timer is a good example of how hard it is to estimate time needed
08:35:56 [fantasai]
Hixie: between the time when I first started looking for ane editor and now, the work tripled
08:36:11 [fantasai]
Hixie: because the webapps group became looking at a next-generation timing ...
08:36:23 [fantasai]
Hixie: the problem we had with the window object was that we thought it was very small, 2-line api
08:36:43 [fantasai]
Hixie: And now it's a third of the spec, and the editor couldn't cope with what became the scope of the work.
08:37:01 [fantasai]
Hsivonen: Another thing is that the editor to do a good job needs to have extended exposure to the bug database of a browser engine
08:37:06 [fantasai]
Hixie: or preferably more than one
08:37:16 [fantasai]
Hsivonen: And there aren't very many people with that kind of exposure.
08:37:16 [DanC_lap]
(seems like we could separate editing and authoring/design more.)
08:37:40 [fantasai]
Mike: So let's put together a list of what parts of the spec we could split out and how much work we think they'll be
08:37:47 [fantasai]
Mike: but let's take a break and come back at 11.
08:37:50 [fantasai]
08:38:56 [fantasai]
08:43:14 [mjs]
DanC_lap, it's not clear to me that would improve matters; few people are qualified to do the authoring/design, while the mechanical edits are at the same time only a small fraction of the work and also opportunities for introducing errors into the design
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09:11:16 [dino]
what is the whole camera thing?
09:12:10 [fantasai]
Topic: TAG joint meeting
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09:12:19 [fantasai]
Mike: Next hour and a half discussion with TAG
09:12:24 [fantasai]
Mik: A number of issues potential topics
09:12:29 [fantasai]
Mike: Modularization of spec is top one
09:12:35 [fantasai]
Mike: Other topics are on the list as well.
09:12:36 [anne]
celebreties at the table man
09:12:42 [anne]
(re dino)
09:12:50 [fantasai]
Mike: Since we have time and attention of TAG, we should try to discuss those issue too
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09:12:58 [fantasai]
Mike: BUt we start with modularization
09:13:04 [fantasai]
Mike: First I'd like to do a quick self-intro
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09:13:25 [DanC_lap]
Henry Thompson
09:13:26 [dbaron]
Henry Thompson, U of Edinburgh
09:13:31 [Norm]
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09:13:32 [DanC_lap]
Norm Walsh
09:13:32 [dbaron]
Norm Walsh, Mark Logic
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09:13:39 [Norm]
Norman Walsh, Mark Logic Corporation
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09:13:48 [dbaron]
Tim Berners-Lee
09:13:55 [dbaron]
T. V. Raman, Google
09:14:01 [Norm]
Ashok Malhotra
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09:14:04 [dbaron]
Ashok Malhotra, Oracle
09:14:06 [Norm]
s/tra/tra, Oracle
09:14:29 [dbaron]
Noah Mendelssohn, IBM
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09:14:40 [ht]
09:15:01 [noah]
Noah Mendelsohn, IBM
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09:15:16 [dbaron]
(and Dan Connolly)
09:15:21 [Norm]
Missing from the TAG: Stuart Williams, Dave Orchard, Jonathan Reese
09:15:21 [fantasai]
Mike: So first topic is Modularization of the HTML5 spec
09:15:42 [fantasai]
Mike: I think best way to start discussion is for members of the TAG want to discuss the problem they see here.
09:16:16 [dino]
fantasai, there is a Castorama 10mins walk up the road. It will have duct tape.
09:16:27 [fantasai]
Henry: I care a lot about distinguishing about the definition of the language as a forma artifcat and the discussion of the behavior of what browsers do with something that purports to be of that language.
09:17:12 [dbaron]
s/forma artifcat/formal artifact/
09:17:22 [fantasai]
Henry: There are two issus, one is whether the spec for the formal language is a separate spec, the other is whether that is defined.
09:17:33 [fantasai]
Henry: Is there such an authoring spec?
09:17:42 [fantasai]
Hixie: There has always been an intent to have that.
09:18:02 [fantasai]
Hixie: There are two: one is a stylesheet applied to the spec, the other is a non-normative guide.
09:18:35 [fantasai]
Tim: ... the parts that define the valid document and that that define error-recovery are separate and flagged differently.
09:18:42 [anne]
(Simon being Simon Pieters)
09:18:46 [fantasai]
Tim: ... synchronization with the spec
09:18:56 [fantasai]
Hixie: Because the spec has a lot of churn, it would be hard to ...
09:19:15 [MikeSmith]
09:19:17 [fantasai]
Tim: Once it's been done once could one assume it would be simple to add tags to the new content?
09:19:37 [fantasai]
Hixie: I'd like to epmhasize that the spec is not just for browsers, but for all user agents
09:19:45 [fantasai]
Noah?: I'm coming from the same place that Henry is.
09:19:55 [zcorpan]
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09:19:56 [dbaron]
09:20:02 [fantasai]
Noah?: I'd also like to say that the TAG as a whole has no opinion on this. We're here to learn
09:20:15 [fantasai]
Noah: I'm speaking for me personally, not for the TAG.
09:20:25 [dbaron]
09:20:38 [fantasai]
Noah: One lurking issue is to what extent you believe that over a period of 5-10 years, most user agents will do pretty much what the spec you're writing says.
09:20:53 [fantasai]
Hixie: Over a period of 5-10 years either the browsers will change to match the spec, or the spec will change to match the browser.
09:21:22 [fantasai]
Noah: Browsers do crazy stuff. They will keep parsing through tag soup, everything but the kitchen sink.
09:21:36 [fantasai]
Noah: What about parsers for other applications. Will they do the same quirky stuff?
09:21:40 [fantasai]
Hixie: Yes.
09:21:52 [karl]
09:21:53 [fantasai]
Noah: I think it's good ot distinguish over time a clean HTML format.
09:22:03 [Lachy]
09:22:05 [fantasai]
Noah: And try to get people to write that.
09:22:15 [fantasai]
Noah: Over time that that becomes the language spec.
09:22:28 [fantasai]
Noah: It becomes a contract between authors and consumers
09:22:53 [fantasai]
Noah: The spec I would ideally like to see would be an HTML5 spec that isn't mentally for authors, but is the language spec, that says this is a table, this is ..
09:22:59 [timbl]
09:23:03 [fantasai]
Hixie: THat is the current spec minus theimplementation stuff.
09:23:15 [fantasai]
Noah: ... good, readable, well-ordered introduction to the language.
09:23:22 [gsnedders_]
09:23:22 [fantasai]
Hixie: we want the spec to be understandable and coherent.
09:23:53 [fantasai]
Hixie: We have various options. We can use a CSS style sheet to hid stuff. If that doesn't work, we could maintain a separate document (which would be a maintenance nightmare), or do some kind of transformation.
09:23:56 [MikeSmith]
ack karl
09:23:58 [fantasai]
Noah: I want it to be good quality
09:24:00 [fantasai]
Hixie: of course
09:24:14 [fantasai]
Karkl: The content.. of HTML5 is well-defined and stricter than that in HTML4.01
09:24:22 [DanC_lap]
(stricter... for example?)
09:24:22 [gsnedders]
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09:24:27 [dbaron]
09:24:32 [Al]
Al has joined #html-wg
09:24:33 [fantasai]
Karl: The content inside the spec, is not pareseable, not readable, for most people.
09:24:34 [hsivonen]
09:24:42 [timbl]
q+ to point out to Naoh that n this case he does NOT want to se the proposed contract as in that model it has the full error recovery. In fact authors write who write in the clean subset of the language will enjor a document for that subset. But the contact with browsers. The contact in the HTML5 browser is not HTML5 conformance.
09:24:46 [fantasai]
Karl: An automatic translation with CSS or XSLT will not be enough
09:24:52 [fantasai]
Karl: So there is a need for a separate document.
09:24:55 [MikeSmith]
ack Lachy
09:25:11 [Hixie]
q+ for another example tool
09:25:13 [fantasai]
Lachlan: Just wrt tools that parse HTML that aren't browsers and wrt clean HTML spec
09:25:27 [marcos]
09:25:35 [fantasai]
Lachlan: The spec needs to define an algorithm that parses all the crap on the web.
09:25:36 [karl]
DanC_lap, for example no align attribute
09:25:42 [DanC_lap]
09:25:48 [marcos]
09:25:59 [fantasai]
Lachlan: The parsing section that handles the non-clean stuff is very tightly integrated into the part that handles the clean stuff
09:26:11 [fantasai]
Lachlan: people who want to just parse an HTML table can grab an off-the shelf library
09:26:13 [Hixie]
DanC_lap: also much stricter rules for nesting interactive elements, iirc
09:26:27 [fantasai]
Lachlan: Having a tool that only accepts clean input does not seem particularly useful.
09:26:28 [pimpbot]
Title: HTML 5 And The Hear-Write Web - W3C Q Weblog (at
09:26:35 [fantasai]
Anne: The spec does allow such an implementation.
09:26:42 [MikeSmith]
ack timbl
09:26:42 [Zakim]
timbl, you wanted to point out to Naoh that n this case he does NOT want to se the proposed contract as in that model it has the full error recovery. In fact authors write who
09:26:46 [Zakim]
... write in the clean subset of the language will enjor a document for that subset. But the contact with browsers. The contact in the HTML5 browser is not HTML5 conformance.
09:27:08 [fantasai]
Tim: When you asked for the contract document, I suspect in this case you don't want it. Becaus ein this case the contract is that the reader will understand the clean stuff as well as the garbage
09:27:16 [fantasai]
Tim: You'll get the whole mess.
09:27:17 [gsnedders]
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09:27:18 [MikeSmith]
09:27:20 [pimpbot]
Title: HTML 5 (at
09:27:23 [Hixie]
q+ for also talking about the syntax section
09:27:29 [MikeSmith]
09:27:30 [pimpbot]
Title: HTML 5 (at
09:27:32 [fantasai]
Tim: ... generate a clean document without any quirks.
09:27:33 [MikeSmith]
09:27:47 [fantasai]
Tim: But the browser language , which is what this group is working on, ...
09:28:00 [fantasai]
Tim: but there's a separate language that is described as conforming HTML5
09:28:03 [fantasai]
Tim: that's describedin the spec
09:28:10 [fantasai]
Tim: but that's not the same as the contract for the browsers
09:28:18 [marcos]
09:28:22 [MikeSmith]
09:28:22 [fantasai]
Tim: ... ideally everything will be clean and won't have any quirks
09:28:36 [fantasai]
Tim: You applea to the contract between the reader and the writer, and the ...
09:28:50 [fantasai]
Noah: What you call conforming HTML5 is what I call HTMl5.
09:29:05 [fantasai]
Tim: That has nothing to do with what the browser accepts. It's not part of the contact.
09:29:06 [MikeSmith]
ack hsivonen
09:29:23 [fantasai]
Hsivonen: Two issues. One, for whom is this language spec intended. Karl mentioned authors.
09:29:36 [fantasai]
Hsivonen: THen there's the suggestion taht there be a normative description of the conforming language.
09:29:43 [fantasai]
Hsivonen: These are two different things.
09:29:44 [Hixie]
09:29:46 [pimpbot]
Title: HTML 5 (at
09:29:53 [Hixie]
09:29:55 [pimpbot]
Title: HTML 5 (at
09:30:13 [fantasai]
Hsivonen: The Writing HTML section is a language-lawyer description of the character streams that will go through the parsing algorithm without hitting any error conditions
09:30:26 [fantasai]
09:30:35 [fantasai]
Hsivonen: But if you are a typical author, yo udon't want to read the stuff in that section.
09:30:56 [fantasai]
Hsivonen: Part of it is because it is written very strict. It lists all the unicode characters, e.g.
09:31:01 [marcos]
09:31:11 [fantasai]
Hsivonen: If we have this normative language spec, we don't get the ocument ? was talking about.
09:31:14 [tlr]
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09:31:26 [marcos]
09:31:32 [fantasai]
Hsivonen: Using this language spec for parsing, because there are no off-the s-elf parsers that don't do error recovery
09:31:36 [gsnedders]
09:31:45 [Hixie]
09:31:49 [timeless]
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09:31:55 [ht]
q+ ht
09:31:55 [MikeSmith]
09:31:57 [fantasai]
Hsvonen: If you wanted something that only parsed clean conforming HTML, then you 'd have to write one. But to do error recoery you have libraries.
09:32:01 [karl]
s/off-the s-elf/off-the shelf/
09:32:08 [fantasai]
Marcos: ... fixation on having clean markup.
09:32:12 [Julian_Reschke]
09:32:20 [fantasai]
Marcos: maybe because you want a tree that is serializable as XHTML
09:32:34 [DanC_lap]
q+ to think out loud about the character encoding dection algorithm
09:32:35 [fantasai]
Marcos: You get a DOM tree anyway. You can convert to XML anyway.
09:32:48 [fantasai]
Tim: Because youauthors want to know how to write HTML, what element to put for what.
09:32:55 [fantasai]
Marcos: But that's what an authoring guide would be for.
09:32:58 [fantasai]
Marcos: ...
09:33:04 [Hixie]
09:33:08 [Hixie]
09:33:13 [Sander]
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09:33:14 [fantasai]
Noah: Are you saying you don't feel any need for people to fix their non-nested tags?
09:33:20 [fantasai]
Marcos: Yes. Who cares?
09:33:36 [fantasai]
Tim: There are two problems. In the short term it's confusing, teaching someone they won't get it.
09:33:50 [fantasai]
Tim: In the book about how to build a web page you say inside the body there are paragraphs.
09:33:55 [MikeSmith]
09:34:09 [fantasai]
Tim: If you're somebody who has written all kinds of other documents and has been asked to produce HTML5 output, then you want something to point this programmer to
09:34:19 [Hixie]
q+ normative nor for users
09:34:22 [fantasai]
Marcos: There needs to be a balance between teaching people the markup and how the DOM is created.
09:34:24 [Hixie]
q+ to normative nor for users
09:34:34 [fantasai]
Marcos: If I write a paragraph and I write a doctype and the a <p> element.
09:34:44 [fantasai]
Marcos: The <html> and <body> are auto-generated by the parsing algorithm
09:34:50 [fantasai]
Tim: ... if they're just going to script it, and not ...
09:35:01 [Al]
Al has joined #html-wg
09:35:10 [fantasai]
Tim: And it looks really cool .. toutputting documetns they want it visible and usable by peopel .. in200 yars time. they want to produce something that is valid.
09:35:14 [hsivonen]
09:35:14 [noah]
q+ to wonder if we're just disagreeing on what should be normative
09:35:18 [gsnedders]
s/in2/in 2/
09:35:27 [Julian_Reschke]
09:35:28 [gsnedders]
09:35:28 [fantasai]
Tim: There are a class of users that need to know what exactly .. eing able to roll up some documents .. dom obviously it's much easier spec to read
09:35:43 [fantasai]
Marcos: The aprsing already algorithm doesn't do what you say, it inserts elements at random
09:35:46 [fantasai]
09:35:49 [fantasai]
Marcos: well not exactly at arndom
09:35:50 [gsnedders]
s/toutputting/to outputting/
09:35:53 [sicking]
q+ for when you have miss-nested tags you probably have a bug
09:35:58 [gsnedders]
09:35:59 [fantasai]
Marcos: THe parsinga algorithm of HTML5 already defines this.
09:36:09 [fantasai]
Marcos tries to give an example
09:36:16 [karl]
09:36:23 [fantasai]
Mike: I'd like to interrupt, we're straying off-topic and other peopel are on the queue
09:36:25 [Hixie]
09:36:30 [Julian_Reschke]
q+ to say that HTML->DOM is not sufficient because there are many cases where you want to be able to process a stream of token instead of a tree (because of memory constraints)
09:36:32 [gsnedders]
09:36:35 [fantasai]
Mike: we want to focus on the idea of having aseparate spec for the language.
09:36:41 [gsnedders]
09:36:44 [fantasai]
??: We were drilling down into why we need such a spec
09:36:54 [Lachy]
09:36:55 [Norm]
09:36:58 [gsnedders]
s/aseper/a seper/
09:37:02 [Lachy]
09:37:05 [gsnedders]
s/asepar/a separ/
09:37:17 [fantasai]
Tim: It might be useful to have two different documents. One describes what you should send down the wire to get this result in the DOM. The other is what you shoudl send down the wire to make a web page
09:37:22 [DanC_lap]
ack ht
09:37:34 [karl]
is it just a matter of finding an editor for this document, and then discuss later on about the requirements and conformance options of this document
09:37:46 [fantasai]
Henry: I'm perfectly happy for as many ppl out there as want to never to use a strict parser as long as they don't mind I want to use a strict parser.
09:38:12 [karl]
I'm willing to write this document after November
09:38:14 [fantasai]
Henry: I think the case today that the students in CS are told they must submit HTML that passes the w3c validator. That's part of the education parocess.
09:38:28 [fantasai]
Henry: There's a substantial history of curriclulm developme t that led us to want to do that.
09:38:37 [Norm]
s/Murray/Murray Maloney/
09:38:39 [Hixie]
MikeSmith, can i jump in here?
09:38:40 [fantasai]
Henry: As long as you're fine with us doing that, then I'm happy for you to use whatever parser you want to use.
09:38:51 [fantasai]
Henry: If the spec is going to discourage that, then I think we have a problem here.
09:38:53 [gsnedders]
q+ to say that strict parsers only check a very small subset of conformance
09:39:04 [fantasai]
Hixi: The parser define din HTML5 today allows any implementation to abort on the first error.
09:39:04 [MikeSmith]
09:39:07 [fantasai]
Henry: That's good enough for me.
09:39:09 [MikeSmith]
ack DanC_lap
09:39:09 [Zakim]
DanC_lap, you wanted to think out loud about the character encoding dection algorithm
09:39:14 [timbl]
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09:39:22 [gsnedders_]
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09:39:33 [fantasai]
DanC: The spec modularization problems that I run into are things like the character detection algorithm, which is e.g. used in some other webapp spec
09:39:46 [fantasai]
Tim: Sounds like a separate spec to me.
09:39:56 [fantasai]
DanC: I think it's been copied into the webapps spec?
09:40:01 [fantasai]
Marcos: we reference it?
09:40:21 [fantasai]
DanC: Is the scheduling ok so that HTML5 will be done before you need to advance through REC track?
09:40:36 [fantasai]
Hixie: That section is very specific to determining hcaracter encoding for HTML
09:40:44 [fantasai]
Hixie: It's not like the URI spec which is independent
09:40:48 [fantasai]
Hixie: this is literally part of HTML
09:40:56 [MikeSmith]
09:40:57 [pimpbot]
Title: HTML 5 (at
09:41:00 [fantasai]
Hixie: It makes sense to refer to HTML to talk about HTML
09:41:09 [MikeSmith]
09:41:10 [fantasai]
DanC: Suppose they want to finish their spec before HTML5?
09:41:43 [timbl]
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09:41:54 [fantasai]
TIm: 2 groups use the same algorithm, then typical way of doing this is to rip out that part and put it in a separate module
09:41:55 [MikeSmith]
fantasai, I'll try to summarize after tim
09:42:15 [fantasai]
Tim: Because that piece is small, it gets reviewed by a bunch of people who wouldn't look at tHTML5
09:42:19 [fantasai]
Tim: i18n will pore over it
09:42:21 [gsnedders_]
gsnedders_ has joined #html-wg
09:42:27 [timeless]
09:42:42 [fantasai]
Tim: and it'll go to REC fast and become a useful tool for the community
09:42:59 [Lachy]
09:43:15 [gsnedders_]
09:43:17 [fantasai]
MikeSmitH: We already have a lot of other specs besides HTML5 that already normatively reference or will need to normatively reference parts of HTML5
09:43:21 [anne]
I note that i18n and people from Unicode have in fact reviewed those parts of HTML5
09:43:21 [gsnedders_]
q- gsnedders_
09:43:23 [gsnedders_]
q- gsnedders
09:43:23 [fantasai]
MikeSmith: HTML5 will block them
09:43:35 [fantasai]
Hixie notes that the chardetection depends on other parts of HTML
09:43:49 [dom]
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09:43:57 [anne]
Character encoding detection was e.g. discussed last year with the i18n WG
09:44:17 [fantasai]
MikeSmith: I don't want to split hairs on exact status details, but if our spec is not mature enough and people need to depend on parts of it, it would be easier to facilitate those references if those pieces of the spec were separate specifications and were moved along on a faster track.
09:44:23 [fantasai]
Hixie: it depends on the rest of the language.
09:44:44 [MikeSmith]
09:44:44 [fantasai]
Hixie: So the character encoding determination seciton does it looks for a <meta> elemetn with a charset attribute
09:44:54 [timeless]
09:44:56 [Julian_Reschke]
09:44:57 [gsnedders]
09:44:59 [fantasai]
Hixie: While doing that it tries to skip comments and other syntactic things.
09:45:04 [fantasai]
Anne: there's hookbacks from the parser
09:45:11 [fantasai]
Hixie: once you.. whole thing about scripts
09:45:29 [fantasai]
Hixie: the idea that we have a charset attribute in HTML5. That's new. We didn't have that on HTML4.
09:45:38 [fantasai]
Hixie: we don't have agrement on that. It might change.
09:45:57 [fantasai]
Hixie: until that gets accepted, then we can't move it forward.
09:46:13 [fantasai]
Anne: Those other people are reviewing the draft. We had comments from unicode and i18n last year.
09:46:13 [Lachy]
09:46:22 [fantasai]
MikeSmith: But we aren't communicating the changes.
09:46:29 [fantasai]
MikeSmith: They aren't aware of our chagnes to that.
09:46:53 [fantasai]
Anne: I dont entirely agree. When we publish a new working draft, we list the changes.
09:47:06 [fantasai]
Mike: I've been trying to do that, but the number of changes is huge
09:47:15 [gsnedders]
09:47:39 [gsnedders]
09:47:40 [fantasai]
Mike: It's good that we are improving the spec, but it's a large number of changes. But expecting that the ppl outisde the group will be able to understand all those changes ...
09:47:44 [MikeSmith]
ack hsivonen
09:47:50 [fantasai]
Hixie: experience with CSSWG is that splitting the specc doesn't work.
09:47:58 [timeless]
09:48:04 [sicking]
09:48:06 [fantasai]
Hsivonen: I'd like to .. marcos about ... parsing algorithm
09:48:16 [fantasai]
Hsivonen: I don't think author should have to figure out what kind of crazy stuff can be done.
09:48:22 [gsnedders]
s/../disagree with/
09:48:38 [fantasai]
Hsivonen: I think we should say if you do this, it will work. Don't need to explain all the other crazy stuff that could be done that would also work
09:48:59 [fantasai]
Hsivonen: If you want a strict parser the right way tot do it is to take an existing one and register an error handler that the only thing it does is throw an exception
09:49:04 [fantasai]
Hsivonen: that gives you a strict parser
09:49:04 [DanC_lap]
(bummer... the pointer to encoding tests from has gone 404...)
09:49:06 [pimpbot]
Title: Re: brainstorming: test cases, issues, goals, etc. from James Graham on 2007-03-14 ( from January to March 2007) (at
09:49:06 [timbl]
09:49:19 [fantasai]
Hsivonen: I think the discusison about stability and referencing, might point out a problem in the Process.
09:49:26 [fantasai]
Hsivonen: It's not only HTMl5 hat has this problem.
09:49:38 [gsnedders]
09:49:44 [DanC_lap]
09:49:45 [timeless]
09:49:46 [karl]
09:49:47 [pimpbot]
Title: Normative References to Moving Targets are Dangerous - W3C Q Weblog (at
09:49:48 [fantasai]
Hsivonen: E.g. RDFA copy-pasted CURIES
09:49:55 [dbaron]
09:50:00 [fantasai]
Hsivonen: SO there's an instance of this problem in a case where teh specs are much more closer to each other.
09:50:02 [dbaron]
09:50:06 [timeless]
09:50:12 [gsnedders]
09:50:12 [MikeSmith]
09:50:26 [timbl]
timbl has joined #html-wg
09:50:28 [fantasai]
Hsivonen: Then SVG 1.2 Tiny can't reference CSS.21 and instead are referencing CSS2.0 even though every implementor knows nobody should be looking at CSS2.0 and should look at CSS2.1 instead
09:50:34 [timeless]
09:50:38 [marcos]
marcos has joined #html-wg
09:50:39 [fantasai]
Hsivonen: Does it help anyone for the process to force these things?
09:50:41 [smedero]
DanC_lap: I think you're looking for this:
09:50:43 [pimpbot]
Title: Revision 1229: /trunk/testdata/encoding (at
09:50:57 [fantasai]
Hsivonen: In HTML5, if it's going to change in HTML5, we want webapps to match that.
09:51:08 [ht]
q+ to point out that there are two solutions to Henri's point within the process
09:51:09 [seungyun]
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09:51:12 [fantasai]
Hsivonen: The point is for the two to match, so you use the same codepath
09:51:43 [shepazu]
hsivonen, the parts of the CSS spec SVG references hasn't changed between 2.0 and 2.1
09:51:44 [smedero]
DanC_lap: (well and then the scripts that deal with that... which have moved here:
09:51:45 [pimpbot]
Title: Revision 1229: /trunk/python/tests (at
09:51:53 [fantasai]
Hsivonen: Even if webapps goes to REC, if the HTML5 encoding detection changes then webapps wants to match that.
09:52:05 [karl]
09:52:06 [timeless]
/ignore #tpchat join
09:52:25 [DanC_lap]
(smedero, I only see 4 tests there. is that how many should be there?)
09:52:28 [fantasai]
Hsivonen: If we're working around a problem in the process that other WGs are facing to and the solutions aren't really helping with implementing the specs, perhaps instead of working around the problem we should solve the probolem
09:52:49 [timeless]
09:52:51 [fantasai]
Tim: The process is a tool, it's ours to use. The fact that there's a two-step difference in level between something that you can reference and something in your own lelvel is unusual in the standards world and
09:53:00 [fantasai]
tim: ISO and IETF you could only reference a standard
09:53:04 [timeless]
09:53:05 [fantasai]
Tim: Or mabye something at the same level
09:53:06 [karl]
That it is not the W3C Process which gives this requirement
09:53:15 [fantasai]
Tim: Being able to reference something less mature is regarded as a bug.
09:53:17 [timeless]
09:53:18 [karl]
This is the transition document
09:53:28 [dbaron]
09:53:30 [fantasai]
Tim: There's a good reason. If you write code fora tehcnology and it meets the standard
09:53:36 [MikeSmith]
09:53:46 [timeless]
s/fora tehcnology/for a technology/
09:53:48 [fantasai]
Tim: And then the less mature spec is changed, then your software doesn't match the spec any more and stuff breaks.
09:53:50 [karl]
Evidence that dependencies with other groups met (or not)
09:53:50 [karl]
# Does this specification have any normative references to W3C specifications that are not yet Proposed Recommendations? Note: In general, documents do not advance to Recommendation with normative references to W3C specifications that are not yet Recommendations.
09:53:50 [karl]
# Is there evidence that additional dependencies related to implementation have been satisfied?
09:53:50 [karl]
09:53:52 [pimpbot]
Title: How to Organize a Recommendation Track Transition (at
09:53:56 [smedero]
DanC_lap: comparing against the 1.0 branch, yes.
09:54:05 [fantasai]
Tim: We could change the process, but that will only help us create broken software.
09:54:19 [karl]
09:54:26 [fantasai]
Tim: WIth something like this, where we have another solution -- which is to pull out this bit of technology and make it separate spec
09:54:41 [fantasai]
Tim: It's got the ability to be stabilized well in advance, then you can have an appropriate ordering between your specs
09:54:47 [fantasai]
Tim: And it'll all work. You don't need a cycle.
09:54:50 [karl]
q+ to mention that it is not part of W3C process
09:55:00 [fantasai]
Tim: It's when you have a cycle that you need to have this slack between the two specs.
09:55:10 [fantasai]
Noah: Picking up in part on what TIm said.
09:55:12 [MikeSmith]
ack noah
09:55:12 [Zakim]
noah, you wanted to wonder if we're just disagreeing on what should be normative
09:55:14 [DanC_lap]
(interesting point, karl; ht, I don't find any constraints on dependencies in the process document. As I recall from discussions with Ian, we rely on reviewers to complain about pointers to stuff that's not sufficiently mature.)
09:55:15 [fantasai]
Tim: about language tutorials
09:55:26 [fantasai]
Noah: I wanted to add up an the parts that everyboyd agreed on and not
09:55:37 [Al]
q+ to say that Henri's point about managing dependencies of concurrently progressing modules shows that Henry's emphasis on declarative spec introduces problems.
09:55:40 [timeless]
09:55:46 [fantasai]
Noah: part I heard agreement on is that the spec should go on the say you're writing it. Maybe you shoudl retitle it, but otherwise no issue
09:56:00 [timeless]
09:56:02 [fantasai]
Noah: I think I heard everbyody agree that there should be docuemtns that help novices learn to write HTML
09:56:10 [timeless]
09:56:11 [pimpbot]
planet: Chris Wilson on Internet Explorer 8 and the W3C HTML Working Group <11>
09:56:14 [fantasai]
Noah: I think I heard agreement htat it should discourage improperly nested tags
09:56:20 [timeless]
09:56:22 [Al]
.. if there could be reference to a function call, we could freeze the interface to that function call and there is not breakage if the body of the function is definitized later
09:56:24 [timeless]
09:56:31 [fantasai]
Noah: THe part I didn't hear agreement on is .. defining a clean language with no errors
09:56:44 [fantasai]
Hixie: That already exists. I sent a link to it in IRC.
09:56:48 [ht]
DanC, the (in)famous '2 steps back' rule comes from the XML Plenary in San Jose in 1998 (?). Consistent with what you said, it's a guideline -- other things being equal, the presumption is that 2 or less is OK, more than that is not, but it's only a presumption
09:56:49 [fantasai]
Noah: Question is should it be a normative document
09:56:57 [fantasai]
Hixie: It is.l It's ection 8.?
09:57:01 [fantasai]
09:57:24 [fantasai]
Noah: It seems to me there's a question whether you advertise to the community conforming HTML5 that is a big deal
09:57:29 [fantasai]
Noah: The way XML is a big deal
09:57:30 [Hixie]
09:57:51 [fantasai]
Noah: If you decide you don't want to do that the world becomes very simple. You're just writing non-normative guides. Can write alots of them. They may not be very consistent.
09:58:04 [gsnedders]
09:58:09 [fantasai]
Noah: If you do write this ection then the question is how can you write such that it is understandable for mere mortals
09:58:24 [Al]
ht, what Chaals learned on researching this recently is that any down-level reference will bring close scrutiny and demand for "three good reasons". I don't presently think a two-level presumption is safe.
09:58:28 [fantasai]
Noah: My personal preference is that you do create such a spec. I don't ahve a reasona, just abstract intuithion
09:58:38 [timeless]
09:58:44 [gsnedders]
09:58:49 [gsnedders]
09:58:50 [fantasai]
Noah: I'm curious if people ...
09:58:50 [MikeSmith]
09:58:51 [timeless]
09:59:07 [plh]
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09:59:19 [fantasai]
Noah: The optional things are,
09:59:30 [fantasai]
Noah: Do you write one or more non-normative informative guides to help authors write stuff.
09:59:39 [fantasai]
Noah: I heard that in general they should encourage the creation of clean content
09:59:59 [fantasai]
Noah: The more controversial option is should you write a normative and precise document that specifies only the clean language and its semantics.
10:00:08 [pimpbot]
Title: HTML 5 (at
10:00:24 [Hixie]
Philip: ^ see timbl's comment
10:00:28 [fantasai]
Noah: I'm not using the term authoring guide, because it's not how I think of it, but it seems that's what you're thinking of
10:00:36 [fantasai]
Mike: One issue is the authoring language spec for HTML5
10:00:39 [Hixie]
Philip: if you could set that up i can regen the spec straight away
10:00:53 [Philip]
Hixie, what would the page title be?
10:00:55 [fantasai]
Mike: THe other issue is the concern Dan brought up , of other parts of the spec that dont' relate to authoring conformance but refer to browser impelemntation details
10:01:03 [Hixie]
Philip: first h2, i guess
10:01:04 [fantasai]
Mike: for which there is rationale to have separate specs
10:01:08 [anne]
Philip, section title of 8.1 &mdash; HTML5
10:01:08 [gsnedders]
10:01:12 [fantasai]
Mike: we do wnat to talk about both thos ethings
10:01:12 [MikeSmith]
10:01:17 [fantasai]
Mike: I want to go through the queue.
10:01:20 [dbaron]
10:01:21 [MikeSmith]
ack ht
10:01:21 [karl]
10:01:21 [Zakim]
ht, you wanted to point out that there are two solutions to Henri's point within the process
10:01:22 [fantasai]
Henry passes
10:01:24 [Philip]
Hixie, some pages don't start on an <h2>, but I suppose I could just use the first heading
10:01:26 [MikeSmith]
ack karl
10:01:26 [Zakim]
karl, you wanted to mention that it is not part of W3C process
10:01:34 [ht]
10:01:37 [MikeSmith]
10:01:40 [MikeSmith]
ack Al
10:01:40 [Zakim]
Al, you wanted to say that Henri's point about managing dependencies of concurrently progressing modules shows that Henry's emphasis on declarative spec introduces problems.
10:01:41 [Philip]
Hixie, (though it'll be a bit misleading on pages that have multiple significant sections)
10:01:45 [fantasai]
Karl: The discussion about modules was not about process docume t(??)
10:01:59 [karl]
s/modules/normative references/
10:02:18 [zcorpan]
Philip: "8 The HTML syntax - HTML 5"
10:02:20 [fantasai]
Al: I'd like to +1 what Tim was saying earlier, that there's the contract in volves two levels of strictness
10:02:34 [fantasai]
Al: THe contract includes the ideas that the consumer has the support of a browser which processes strigns of several varieties
10:02:35 [Lachy]
s/in volves/involves/
10:02:36 [Hixie]
Philip: yeah, but it'll be better than nothing
10:02:42 [fantasai]
Al: While the author gets instrcuted in how to be strict in what they emit
10:02:49 [gsnedders]
Philip: Why can't we just have one major section per doc?
10:02:52 [fantasai]
Al: This is what makes the Web interoperate today. Is that we have both statements.
10:03:01 [fantasai]
Al: This is what the HTML5 spec tends to do. I want to say that's valueable.
10:03:03 [karl]
s/process docume t(??)/process document requirements, but transition document/
10:03:05 [anne]
Philip, alternatively you give us an API so we can make up a title per page and such :)
10:03:05 [ht]
q+ to suggest we look at the URI issue
10:03:08 [timbl_]
timbl_ has joined #html-wg
10:03:13 [MikeSmith]
ack Hixie
10:03:13 [fantasai]
Al: That's how you make large systems interoperate. You have some space between these two.
10:03:37 [fantasai]
Hixie: I'd like to encourage people that want a document that defines a "clean language" to read section 8.?.?
10:03:42 [fantasai]
Hixie: and see if that's what they mean.
10:03:45 [MikeSmith]
10:03:47 [pimpbot]
Title: HTML 5 (at
10:03:55 [fantasai]
Hixie: I'm not sure that document is useful to authors. Because it wouldnt' be something they'd unerstand.
10:04:02 [fantasai]
Hixie: And that's where a non-normative authoring guide comes in.
10:04:10 [gsnedders]
10:04:20 [Lachy]
10:04:24 [fantasai]
Hixie: I don't think that splitting sctions out of the spe cto keep them more stable will work.
10:04:37 [Lachy]
10:04:40 [gsnedders]
s/spe cto/spec to/
10:04:40 [mjs]
mjs has joined #html-wg
10:04:47 [MikeSmith]
10:04:48 [pimpbot]
Title: HTML 5 (at
10:04:50 [noah]
What I have in mind is a document would be a document that would include the syntax, as well as the normative definitions of what a table is, a paragraph, etc. Ideally, I would then NOT repeat those semantics in the "larger" user agent spec.; I would have the user agent spec refer to the language spec for that.
10:04:55 [fantasai]
Hixie: The problem isn't aht HTML5 isn't stable,the problem is that the part that changes is the part that we want to split out
10:05:01 [MikeSmith]
10:05:02 [fantasai]
Hixie: I don't have a solution to that.
10:05:16 [fantasai]
Mike: I'd like to talk about specifics.
10:05:16 [heycam]
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10:05:33 [fantasai]
Mike: We seem to have consensus that we should have an authoring spec.
10:05:47 [fantasai]
Mike: Several parts of the spec talk about authoring conformance criteria
10:05:48 [marcos]
10:05:48 [DanC_lap]
"8.1 Writing HTML documents"
10:05:57 [fantasai]
Mike: There's 8.1
10:06:02 [fantasai]
Mike: But there are also parts on semantics
10:06:12 [hsivonen]
10:06:17 [MikeSmith]
ack ht
10:06:17 [Zakim]
ht, you wanted to suggest we look at the URI issue
10:06:19 [fantasai]
Mike: We shoudl go to that part of the spec and see if it has what we think needs to be there
10:06:31 [fantasai]
Henry: I'd like to back you up and move on to another issue.. modularization
10:06:46 [fantasai]
Henry: IA different spin on it. It really is a matter of "spheres of influence"
10:06:50 [Hixie]
10:06:53 [fantasai]
Henry: That's the URI/URL parsing section
10:07:07 [fantasai]
Henry: It did feel to the TAG at least at first blush that this looked like
10:07:14 [fantasai]
Henry: A misjudgement wrt serving the web community
10:07:30 [fantasai]
Henry: That people need to have a consistent picture of identifiers for web resources
10:07:38 [fantasai]
Henry: It's not up to the HTMLWG to decide what that string looks like
10:07:47 [MikeSmith]
10:07:49 [fantasai]
Henry: At the very least the IETF has a stake in this. They own the relevant specs
10:07:56 [JonathanJ]
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10:08:05 [fantasai]
Henry: I'd like to see if there's a willingness to look at refactoring that discussion at least.
10:08:22 [MikeSmith]
ack Lachy
10:08:33 [fantasai]
Lachlan: Wrt splitting the spec, I'm a bit curious about who exactly we're targetting this other spec for.
10:08:35 [MikeSmith]
q+ Larry
10:08:43 [fantasai]
Lachlan: there are a whole range of .. that use HTML5.
10:09:01 [fantasai]
Lachlan: Each of those need different overlapping sections of the spec.
10:09:12 [anne]
XMLHttpRequest currently refers to the HTML5 URL concept...
10:09:17 [Lachy]
Authors, markup generators, authoring tools, validators, generic consumer tools, browsers.
10:09:18 [Lachy]
Each needs a different set of overlapping sections of the spec.
10:09:18 [Lachy]
Authors: semantics, conforming syntax
10:09:18 [Lachy]
authoring tools: semantics, conforming syntax, parsing, sometimes rendering
10:09:18 [Lachy]
validators: parsing
10:09:19 [Lachy]
consumer tools: parsing, DOM/tree
10:09:21 [Lachy]
search engines: semantics, parsing
10:09:23 [Lachy]
browsers: semantics, parsing, rendering
10:09:44 [fantasai]
Lachlan summarizes his notes above
10:09:47 [hsivonen]
validators need a lot more than parsing
10:10:07 [fantasai]
Lachlan: THe problem is who exactly are we trying to target with this split spec, given that there are so many overlapping needs?
10:10:08 [DanC_lap]
q+ to note that after review of the URL stuff, I found it acceptable, but I haven't "sold" others. the IETF has right of review, and I think we have an unstable/paper consensus
10:10:15 [marcos]
10:10:15 [gsnedders]
10:10:16 [MikeSmith]
10:10:19 [MikeSmith]
ack hsivonen
10:10:25 [fantasai]
Marcos: Lachlan said my point
10:10:29 [cshelly]
@MikeSmith: are the "semantics sections" sections 3 and 4?
10:10:31 [pimpbot]
cshelly: Huh?
10:10:41 [fantasai]
Hsivonen: On URIs what the spec does it takes the IRI RFC and defines the delta of what you need on top of the RFC.
10:10:53 [fantasai]
?: It states what rules you need to change in the RFC to parse
10:10:58 [karl]
10:10:59 [pimpbot]
Title: QA Framework: Specification Guidelines (at
10:10:59 [fantasai]
Henry: Why do you need a delta at all?
10:11:09 [gsnedders]
10:11:13 [fantasai]
Hsivonen: Suppose I'm writing a browser. THere's existing content out there that was written before the IRI spec
10:11:31 [fantasai]
Hsivonen: If you have a form and you input characters, and the you submit that form using GET.
10:11:32 [Julian_Reschke]
10:11:32 [MikeSmith]
cshelly, basically just section 3
10:11:43 [Philip]
10:11:45 [pimpbot]
Title: 8 The HTML syntax HTML 5 (at
10:11:47 [MikeSmith]
cshelly, plus the first part of section 8
10:11:59 [fantasai]
Hsivonen: You encode the unicode characters in the form fields to bytes using the character encoding that the document itself was labelled as when it was parsed.
10:12:05 [Philip]
MikeSmith, you still need to fix pimpbot entity handling :-p
10:12:14 [Philip]
10:12:15 [fantasai]
Hsovnen: And this is requried for backwards comptibility, otherwise servers will receive form submission that they didn't expect and they will break.
10:12:20 [Hixie]
woohoo, nice work Philip
10:12:26 [fantasai]
Hsivonen: there's another eq that flows from this one. If you have on an html page a URI that has a query string
10:12:35 [karl]
10:12:35 [Hixie]
timbl_, multipage spec version is updated to have better <title>s now
10:12:39 [fantasai]
Hsovnen: You are linking to a orm submission sucha s the one I describe
10:12:40 [pimpbot]
Title: Variability in Specifications (at
10:13:17 [karl]
10:13:25 [MikeSmith]
Philip, patches welcome
10:13:29 [timbl_]
If the form submission has non-ascii then you can't encodeit a la IRI ncodeing.
10:13:33 [karl]
10:13:46 [fantasai]
Hsivonen: The kind of string ath's in href, if it has non-ascii in it to get an ascii-only URI you need to use the ncoding of the document to encode those characters into bytes and then do the % encoding on those bytes and then give the result to the HTTP library
10:13:50 [timbl_]
You have to use the encoding which the document itself was parsed with.
10:13:53 [anne]
timbl_, it would be URI percent encoded afaict
10:13:53 [fantasai]
Hsivonen: Sites are dpeending on this behavior. So browsers are.
10:13:54 [MikeSmith]
10:13:59 [gsnedders]
10:14:00 [pimpbot]
Title: 2 Common infrastructure HTML 5 (at
10:14:06 [fantasai]
?: We all know that and we are in total agreement that the spec needs to do that.
10:14:11 [gsnedders]
That defines what hsivonen is summarizing
10:14:14 [fantasai]
HsivoneN: So we've established that browsers need to do that.
10:14:17 [gsnedders]
10:14:22 [fantasai]
... I'm writing something else. The image .. of
10:14:35 [fantasai]
... It's not a browser, but it deals with content browser deal with
10:14:43 [fantasai]
... I can't impelemtn the IRI and then find out later that it won't work
10:14:45 [noah]
10:14:51 [fantasai]
... The RFC doesn't give me a spec for that
10:14:52 [gsnedders]
10:15:12 [fantasai]
... The .. library that impelemtns 6 different profiles for IRIs,b ut doesn't impelment the most common profile -- href links in HTML
10:15:15 [MikeSmith]
10:15:17 [MikeSmith]
10:15:27 [fantasai]
... ifIETF isn't providing then, then I want to have a spec that I can write to and not have to reverse-engineer anything.
10:15:27 [gsnedders]
s/b ut/but/
10:15:29 [timbl]
timbl has joined #html-wg
10:15:32 [timeless]
10:15:35 [gsnedders]
s/ifIETF/if IETF/
10:15:37 [fantasai]
... I want to use the reverse-engineering that Hixie did
10:15:49 [fantasai]
... If that's not in the IETF, then it should be somewhere. HTMl5
10:16:04 [fantasai]
Mike: ... whether we should do that in a normative W3C REC
10:16:08 [noah]
q+ to ask whether the issue is the use of the term URI or IRI for something that doesn't conform to the RFCs
10:16:13 [fantasai]
Mike: we need to come back to what specifically we need to get to
10:16:38 [Julian_Reschke]
all the stuff that Henri said is correct, except the conclusion that it needs to be done the was it is done right now
10:16:40 [ht]
Henri, Stipulate that the RFC is broken, why not fix the RFC, instead of starting a turf war?
10:16:43 [fantasai]
TV: The meta issue is that there'as an RFC for IRIs and browsers violate that IRI. Meta-issue is do we need to codify that violation fo the IRI spec?
10:16:54 [JonathanJ]
JonathanJ has joined #html-wg
10:16:57 [fantasai]
Mike: So mabye we nee dot clarify that this is a big public issue that is open
10:17:13 [hsivonen]
ht, the IETF wasn't cooperative when doing that was suggested
10:17:23 [fantasai]
TV: The meta-issue here isn't aobut bits and bytes, but about whether this WG should be codifying existing violations of existing RFCs.
10:17:30 [fantasai]
Tim: ... go into another RFC.
10:17:33 [hsivonen]
10:17:37 [ht]
Henri, did you raise it through the W3C-IETF liaison call?
10:17:39 [fantasai]
?: modularization, goes to IETF
10:17:43 [MikeSmith]
ack Larry
10:17:49 [DanC_lap]
10:18:03 [fantasai]
Larry: It's not clear to me that .. properly with in the domain of HTML to define how HTML define form submission
10:18:12 [fantasai]
Larry: IETF doesn't say how HTML does form submission
10:18:12 [ht]
s/../forms submission/
10:18:20 [fantasai]
Larry: ... URI sepcification...
10:18:21 [DanC_lap]
s/IETF doesn't/the IRI spec doesn't/
10:18:41 [fantasai]
Lary: It may be that if you see a URI in a form and you have query string that you take that URI and then you transform that URI and then you do the submit on that URI
10:18:44 [MikeSmith]
10:18:53 [timbl]
timbl has joined #html-wg
10:18:59 [fantasai]
Larry: It's not changeing the IRI spec. It's doing some weird processing before.
10:19:23 [fantasai]
Larry: It might solve the issue to rewrite the spec so to define this behavior as pre-processing the IRI string.
10:19:30 [timeless]
10:19:40 [fantasai]
Larry: ... and maybe submitting this back to IETF would also be a good idea.
10:19:46 [fantasai]
Larry: back to authroing spec.
10:19:54 [timeless]
10:20:01 [fantasai]
Larry: I think rather than thinking about browsers and authors, sicne most content today is created by other software.
10:20:05 [timbl]
timbl has joined #html-wg
10:20:09 [fantasai]
Larry: You should use terms producers and consumers
10:20:09 [timeless]
10:20:15 [ht]
HST likes Larry's suggestion, because it's consistent with the fact that IRIs are generic, but the query-string format we're talking about is 'http:' specific, I believe
10:20:21 [fantasai]
Larry: I think that will help with the discussion.
10:20:21 [DanC_lap]
(I disagree. authors are humans that need nice successive-elaboration documents.)
10:20:40 [MikeSmith]
ack Hixie
10:20:40 [noah]
10:20:41 [fantasai]
Larry: Because the engineers that write producing software are less sophsticated about this than browser implementors
10:20:57 [timeless]
10:21:06 [karl]
what Larry just said is part of the list of class of products -
10:21:07 [pimpbot]
Title: Variability in Specifications (at
10:21:11 [fantasai]
Hixie: Before IRI section was drafted, I joined the relevant IETF group and asked if I could create a spec there
10:21:21 [fantasai]
Hixie: they told me they weren't itnerested in doing this.
10:21:28 [fantasai]
Hixie: So then I put this section into HTMl5.
10:21:37 [anne]
interested parties weren't interested, nice
10:21:42 [fantasai]
Hixie: If anyone wants to edit that section, I'm happy to pull it out into a separate spec.
10:21:49 [fantasai]
Tim: ...
10:22:05 [fantasai]
Tim: My understanding was that if you want what henri said.
10:22:12 [Hixie]
10:22:19 [timeless]
10:22:21 [fantasai]
Tim: A string with non-ascii characters and then encodes it ...
10:22:29 [DanC_lap]
(the algorithm takes not just a URI reference, but also the encoding fo of the document it came from.)
10:22:30 [timeless]
10:22:33 [fantasai]
Tim: That URI string willhave % in it, but if you interpret it as IRI ..
10:22:45 [fantasai]
Tim: So it would be inappropriate to hand it over to IRI
10:22:47 [timeless]
s/willhave/will have/
10:22:51 [fantasai]
Anne: Isn't IRI a superset of URI?
10:22:58 [fantasai]
Henry: Suppose your doc is encoded in 1252
10:23:20 [fantasai]
Henry: Larry's suggestion is that the HTML spec says take that string, and recencode it in unicode and the it is a URI and you can apply the escaping algorithm to it
10:23:29 [fantasai]
Hsivonen: You get the wrong URI if you do that.
10:23:31 [timeless]
10:23:33 [mjs]
mjs has joined #html-wg
10:23:46 [timbl_]
timbl_ has joined #html-wg
10:23:59 [fantasai]
Mike talks about lunch and AC meetings
10:24:03 [fantasai]
Mike: we have a time constraint
10:24:23 [DanC_lap]
(Julian, we were close? close to what? is it something you could write on a line or two?)
10:24:26 [fantasai]
Mike: Let's move beyond the specifics and talk about how we cna move forward , what can we do after today to continue the discussion.
10:24:32 [timeless]
10:24:39 [gsnedders]
10:24:44 [fantasai]
Mike: If everyboyd can agree to hang around for an extra 15 min that gives us time to get through the quue and try to talk about moving forward
10:24:47 [MikeSmith]
10:24:52 [MikeSmith]
ack DanC_lap
10:24:52 [Zakim]
DanC_lap, you wanted to note that after review of the URL stuff, I found it acceptable, but I haven't "sold" others. the IETF has right of review, and I think we have an
10:24:52 [DanC_lap]
ack danc
10:24:56 [Zakim]
... unstable/paper consensus
10:25:40 [Julian_Reschke]
for the record: Larrys proposal does work; we just need to use ASCII to encode the characters that we don't want the IRI processing to map the wrong way
10:25:45 [Julian_Reschke]
10:25:46 [timbl]
timbl has joined #html-wg
10:25:48 [timeless]
10:25:49 [MikeSmith]
10:25:51 [MikeSmith]
10:25:59 [fantasai]
DanC: So the URL stuff, I figured out what it was saying and harumphed over it a lot and made my peace with it
10:26:11 [fantasai]
Danc: But as go around to other people, the trick is.. since htis deals with URI and IRI stuff
10:26:19 [fantasai]
DanC: It's good to get consensus with them
10:26:30 [fantasai]
DanC: They say it would be ok if you rewrite it
10:26:39 [fantasai]
DanC: With the technical design, I see no way out of this local minimum
10:26:47 [fantasai]
DanC: People that are interested to take a whack at rewriting
10:26:54 [MikeSmith]
ack noah
10:26:54 [Zakim]
noah, you wanted to ask whether the issue is the use of the term URI or IRI for something that doesn't conform to the RFCs
10:27:01 [fantasai]
Noah: This may actually relate to paper consensus / durable consensus
10:27:04 [hsivonen]
10:27:24 [fantasai]
Noah: I may be misinformed, but I believe an issue is in the draft spec it refers to things as URIs that are not URIs, that are the input to this process or the output
10:27:44 [hsivonen]
10:27:44 [fantasai]
Noah: If there are such thigns, and it contributes to stable discussion, to change that. It would be nice to have convenient terms
10:27:54 [Al]
content negotiation for href; can we do server sniffing as a way to serve the
10:27:56 [fantasai]
Noah: but whatever. Call it an HTML URI. Write your spec that way
10:27:57 [timeless]
10:28:21 [Al]
.. serve the 'right' URI transcription as per IRI RFC?
10:28:24 [fantasai]
Noah: Then in the informal guides you can call it whateve ryou want, URIs, URLs
10:28:36 [fantasai]
Noah: I think being strict with the terminology will help
10:28:40 [Norm]
10:28:47 [timeless]
s/whateve ryou/whatever you/
10:28:48 [gsnedders]
s/whateve ryou/whatever you/
10:29:05 [MikeSmith]
ack Hixie
10:29:18 [fantasai]
Hixie: the term that's used in the spec is URL, but I agree it's a conflict. THe reason we used that
10:29:34 [fantasai]
Hixie: even when we used URI or IRI, a lot of people said what the heck's a URI, or what's a IRI
10:29:52 [fantasai]
Hixie: It was a compromise I came to by balancin the people who would be confused about this term vs that term
10:30:05 [fantasai]
Hixie: The actual section, if you give it a valid URI or IRI it gives you a valid URI or IRI.
10:30:13 [timeless]
10:30:18 [fantasai]
Hixie: the only thing it defines is how you handle invalid URIs and IRIs
10:30:19 [MikeSmith]
ack hsivonen
10:30:36 [MikeSmith]
10:30:42 [fantasai]
Hsivonen: What he said isn't exactly correct. It's correct if your document is encoded in UTF--8 or doesn't have query strings
10:30:54 [fantasai]
Hsivonen: I don't think it's a good idea to give an ugly name.
10:30:57 [timeless]
10:31:01 [fantasai]
Noah: no, come up with a nice name
10:31:12 [mjs]
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10:31:19 [fantasai]
Tim: I'm happy saying at the top of the document we redefine URL as used in this specification.
10:31:38 [fantasai]
Philippe: We do this in a lot of specs that use URI where they really reference IRI.
10:31:59 [fantasai]
Mike: So at a high level we're all here because we want to produce a W3C REC for HTML5
10:32:13 [Julian_Reschke]
problem: there's also an important distinction between "URL" and "vaild URL".
10:32:36 [fantasai]
argument about whether TAG can preven this, or whether it's only the Director
10:32:55 [fantasai]
Mike: Anyway, W3C can block this if there are parts of the spec that conflict with Web Architecture and they're not ok with that.
10:33:06 [anne]
hsivonen, that's not exactly correct, UTF-16 is also fine
10:33:12 [fantasai]
Mike: There are parts of the spec that it wouldnt' e possible to move forward unless we work through these issues.
10:33:13 [DanC_lap]
(this seems like a negative way of saying: a goal of W3C is to get consensus on specs)
10:33:14 [karl]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
10:33:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate karl
10:33:15 [hsivonen]
anne, true
10:33:28 [fantasai]
Mike: We could wait until CR, or we could try to resolve these issues now.
10:33:30 [timeless]
s/wouldnt' e/wouldn't be/
10:33:32 [noah]
I don't think anyone prefers to defer the process of working through issues.
10:33:39 [fantasai]
Mike: I've gotten a list of things ? plans to formally object to
10:33:50 [gsnedders]
s/?/Roy Fielding/
10:33:56 [fantasai]
Mike: It is to the benefit of all of us to try to get resolution sooner rather than later.
10:34:14 [pimpbot]
Title: SV_MEETING_TITLE -- 23 Oct 2008 (at
10:34:24 [olivier]
rrsagent, make logs public
10:34:29 [olivier]
rrsagent, draft minutes
10:34:29 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate olivier
10:34:30 [fantasai]
Tim: Whether Rory or others are on the TAG has got nothing to do with how much we should listent o their opinions
10:34:30 [pimpbot]
Title: SV_MEETING_TITLE -- 23 Oct 2008 (at
10:34:31 [smedero]
10:34:39 [smedero]
olivier: thanks
10:34:46 [hsivonen]
10:34:54 [timeless]
s/listent o/listen to/
10:35:07 [fantasai]
Tim: .. nor should you look at this as what should we do to do the least procedurally to get this to rec. You wnat to look at what's going to make this the best spec.
10:35:15 [fantasai]
Larry: Let's move away from thinking about personalities
10:35:19 [timeless]
10:35:30 [fantasai]
Larry: And consider whether there are communities whose needs are not met by this specification.
10:35:31 [Hixie]
10:35:40 [hsivonen]
10:35:44 [fantasai]
Larry: mabye the HTML5 spec doesn't meet the need of the community that builds web servers
10:35:59 [timeless]
10:36:01 [fantasai]
Larry: I'm more representative of the parts fo my company that make authoring tools
10:36:04 [fantasai]
Larry: ...
10:36:07 [timeless]
10:36:17 [DanC_lap]
(I think "needs" is a strong terms; there are comminities whose _wants_ are not satisifed; some of them get dissuaded by discussion tactics before they finish learning whether their actual needs are met.)
10:36:17 [Hixie]
s/more/a poor/, i think
10:36:24 [fantasai]
Larry: I look at it from the pov that there are some communities that have a lot less time to spend on this, but have requirements that might not be addressed as well
10:36:32 [Hixie]
but i could be wrong
10:36:34 [timbl]
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10:36:38 [fantasai]
Mike apologizes for wording
10:36:42 [gsnedders]
Hixie: You're right
10:37:04 [fantasai]
Mike: .. I'm really glad Rory is paying attention
10:37:15 [fantasai]
Mike: This work ahs been going on for 4 years
10:37:20 [hsivonen]
10:37:22 [fantasai]
Mike: For a lot of that time people weren't paying attention
10:37:27 [fantasai]
Mike: Now they are
10:37:32 [Hixie]
10:37:48 [DanC_lap]
TimBL notes development of HTML goes back 18 years and 6 months
10:37:50 [Hixie]
10:37:51 [fantasai]
Mike: I think it's good that we have more people paying attention to this work now and we ant to make it possible for them to facilitate the discussion going forward.
10:38:01 [fantasai]
Mike: So again, where are we going to continue this discussion? We have public-html
10:38:08 [fantasai]
Mike: but only members can post to it
10:38:14 [DanC_lap]
(only members of the wg can post to public-html? I don't think that's so.0
10:38:16 [DanC_lap]
10:38:22 [timeless]
10:38:29 [fantasai]
TV proposes copying public-html and www-tag
10:38:32 [gsnedders]
DanC_lap: anyone can, but it's covered by the patent policy, so it's kinda non-obvious
10:38:39 [Hixie]
i just wanted to mention that i work with people from the apache foundation, and that google also writes web servers, and i try my best to address their needs and desires
10:38:47 [Hixie]
but no need to say that out loud i guess
10:38:52 [hsivonen]
10:39:02 [fantasai]
Tim: modularization or URI stuff?
10:39:14 [fantasai]
Henry: There is a w3c ietf liaison call
10:39:40 [fantasai]
Henry: Query strings in their particular formulation as they're used in HTML ...
10:39:47 [fantasai]
Danc: Henry please, this is a technical question, right?
10:40:02 [fantasai]
Mike: I would like we don't leave today with hanging on where to coninue discussion?
10:40:15 [fantasai]
Mike: How can we move forward with discussion with TAG with these issues?
10:40:36 [fantasai]
Mike: Specific issues are authoring spec, and modularization -- splitting pieces out, and whether we should have normative definitions for some stuff liek URI
10:40:39 [anne]
email message to from Hixie:
10:40:40 [pimpbot]
Title: Error handling in URIs from Ian Hickson on 2008-06-24 ( from June 2008) (at
10:40:45 [ht]
HST was going to ask if there was agreement that the core of Henri Sivonen's summary only applies to http: URIs
10:40:49 [fantasai]
?: I would've thought it'd be up to the WG to discuss what they've just heard from TAG
10:40:58 [timbl]
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10:41:00 [fantasai]
?: And sort out what they think they've heard, and what they think they should do about it
10:41:03 [ht]
10:41:03 [DanC_lap]
10:41:10 [fantasai]
?: and then tell the tag
10:41:15 [DanC_lap]
fanasai, meet Murray Maloney. Murray, fantasai.
10:41:16 [ht]
10:41:17 [fantasai]
?: and then the TAG can say tha'ts great
10:41:23 [ht]
10:41:38 [fantasai]
TV wants to CC www-tag
10:41:50 [fantasai]
MM: Do you want to follow the whole discussion or just the conclusion?
10:42:10 [fantasai]
Mike: SO action is on me to bring this back tto HTMLWG and to communicate back to TAG what we want to do about these issues.
10:42:25 [fantasai]
MM: What are the other three issues we wanted to talk about?
10:42:28 [gsnedders]
10:42:32 [gsnedders]
What email?
10:42:35 [fantasai]
TV: They were listed in the email, we should talk on email
10:42:52 [fantasai]
Mike lists the issues, someone please paste the email
10:43:22 [fantasai]
Mike: I'll just repeat what I just said, action item is on Chris and and me to bring back to the group
10:43:32 [fantasai]
Mike: come to resolution on what we plan to do and communicate back to the tag
10:43:47 [fantasai]
TIm: I'm wondering from TAG pov whether we should also ...
10:43:53 [gsnedders]
The email anne mentioned earlier that's member only and therefore people like me can't actually see it?
10:44:02 [fantasai]
Tim: from discusison last couple days, one thing ath comes up often when people see HTMl5 spec for first time
10:44:05 [DanC_lap]
ACTION: Mike lead HTML WG to response to TAG discussion and report back to TAG
10:44:06 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-77 - Lead HTML WG to response to TAG discussion and report back to TAG [on Michael(tm) Smith - due 2008-10-30].
10:44:15 [fantasai]
Tim: they look at the spec and they say that's not what I mean by a spec.
10:44:35 [fantasai]
Tim: I wonder whether the TAG could wirte something to point out there's two ways of doing this
10:44:41 [fantasai]
Tim: E.g. TAG's done work on versioning.
10:45:02 [fantasai]
Tim: ....
10:45:07 [timeless]
10:45:22 [fantasai]
Tim: If the HTMl5 folks could say what we're making is one of these and point to the tAG's writeup
10:45:33 [gsnedders]
10:45:48 [fantasai]
Tim: Would working at the meta-level be helpful. Maybe useful to IETF and understanding HTML5 as opposed to language specs as traditionally written
10:45:56 [anne]
10:46:04 [fantasai]
Mike: Maye a summary from the TAG perspective on what we discussed today, HTat would be very helpful
10:46:19 [fantasai]
TV: It looks like Tim signed up to write such a thing. :)
10:46:23 [anne]
10:46:29 [fantasai]
Tim: I'll nominally take an action item.
10:46:58 [fantasai]
ACTION: TimBL write up a description of the kind of spec HTMLWG is writing for TAG
10:46:58 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - TimBL
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10:47:11 [fantasai]
10:47:11 [fantasai]
10:47:15 [fantasai]
bye everyone
10:47:22 [fantasai]
RRSAgent: make logs public
10:47:29 [fantasai]
RRSAgent: make minutes
10:47:29 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate fantasai
10:47:31 [pimpbot]
Title: SV_MEETING_TITLE -- 23 Oct 2008 (at
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12:10:56 [timbl]
phenny, tell ericP Does your query pipeline system support Sparql DESCRIBE ?
12:11:15 [gsnedders]
Do we have a scribe?
12:11:30 [Lachy]
I can
12:11:33 [Lachy]
12:11:40 [timeless]
ScribeNick: Lachy
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12:13:14 [Lachy]
Steven: I can find someone to say something about Forms
12:13:38 [Lachy]
MikeSmith, The Most significant change is the integration of web forms 2 into current draft
12:13:40 [Steeeven]
Forms=arcchitectural consistency part
12:13:44 [Steeeven]
12:13:49 [gsnedders]
12:13:52 [Steeeven]
there is a separate task force for that
12:14:06 [oedipus]
no longer - expired in July 2008
12:14:08 [Lachy]
Hixie, I'm still responding to feedback. Around start of sept, I started merging HTML4 forms and WF2 changes into HTML5
12:14:18 [Lachy]
going through old feedback since 2004
12:14:24 [myakura]
12:14:26 [anne]
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12:14:26 [pimpbot]
Title: 4.10 Forms HTML 5 (at
12:14:34 [oedipus]
12:14:36 [pimpbot]
Title: PF/XTech/HTML5/Forms - ESW Wiki (at
12:14:45 [Lachy]
Hixie: Not everything made it through, e.g. repetition model
12:15:07 [Yves]
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12:15:15 [Lachy]
MikeSmith: so that's kind of the last missing semantics that was missing?
12:15:19 [Lachy]
Hixie: Aria is the other
12:15:29 [noah]
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12:15:34 [smedero]
oedipus: MikeSmith setup pimpbot
12:15:49 [karl]
s/Hixie, I'm still /Hixie: I'm still /
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12:16:04 [oedipus]
smdero, i supposed i should try or something
12:16:20 [Lachy]
MikeSmith: We need to prepare a summary of what's changed
12:16:34 [gsnedders]
Lachy: colons and ...
12:16:38 [Lachy]
... Doesn't need to be as detailed as the last time
12:16:42 [karl]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
12:16:42 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate karl
12:16:43 [pimpbot]
Title: SV_MEETING_TITLE -- 23 Oct 2008 (at
12:16:55 [Lachy]
... We need something a little less detailed.
12:17:15 [Lachy]
... anne put together a bulleted list of the changes, but we need something a bit between that and the detailed change list
12:17:24 [Lachy]
... THe forms stuff was integrated based on the WG survey
12:17:33 [Lachy]
... We had forms TF for a year. The TF did not do anything
12:17:35 [timeless]
12:17:44 [MichaelC]
meeting: HTML WG
12:17:55 [oedipus]
meeting: HTML face2face TPAC 2008 Day 1
12:18:07 [alexmog]
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12:18:17 [MikeSmith]
12:18:18 [Lachy]
Anybody else have any questions or concerns?
12:18:37 [karl]
Meeting: HTML WG - TPAC - October 2008
12:18:42 [DanC_lap]
(anybody got a pointer to that msg?)
12:18:44 [karl]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
12:18:44 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate karl
12:18:45 [pimpbot]
Title: SV_MEETING_TITLE -- 23 Oct 2008 (at
12:19:04 [Lachy]
Nick: Someone sent a n email with some question regarding the integration of forms into html5 was sent to the forms tf list, but no-one responded
12:19:09 [timeless]
s/a n/an/
12:19:12 [Lachy]
MikeSmith: Please find a pointer to that message
12:19:41 [Lachy]
... We also asked for feedback on the WF2 proposal from the Forms WG, but they didn't provide any
12:19:49 [r12a]
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12:19:54 [anne]
might be
12:19:55 [pimpbot]
Title: Re: Status update from Keith Wells on 2008-06-02 ( from June 2008) (at
12:20:28 [pimpbot]
Title: Documentation Supybot Website (at
12:20:30 [JonathanJ]
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12:20:34 [MikeSmith]
12:20:44 [Lachy]
Charlie: [talking about Ubiquity XForms on Google code]
12:20:50 [oedipus]
my comments to the HTML WG on the forms survey & forms in general:
12:20:50 [anne]
12:20:53 [pimpbot]
Title: GregoryRosmaita/FormsFeedback2008-07 - ESW Wiki (at
12:20:54 [pimpbot]
Title: ubiquity-xforms - Google Code (at
12:21:04 [Lachy]
... The main thing is to take some of the attribues on the data model and project those up to the controlsw.
12:21:33 [timeless]
12:21:33 [Lachy]
12:22:01 [nick]
nick has joined #html-wg
12:22:37 [Lachy]
??: Is the entire WF2 spec taken into HTML5?
12:22:47 [fantasai]
12:22:52 [timeless]
s/??/Kai Scheppe/
12:23:06 [Lachy]
Hixie: About half made it in. Some sections dropped: Repetition model, forms pre-seeding, XML serialisation mode,
12:23:16 [MikeSmith]
12:23:32 [Lachy]
... a few other minor issues as well
12:23:41 [Lachy]
... mostly in response to implementer feedback
12:23:50 [Hixie]
(or implementor apathy)
12:23:58 [anne] has an informative list at the end of features from WF2 not included in the spec
12:24:08 [Lachy]
MikeSmith: we have
12:24:13 [Lachy]
... anyone can post to that
12:24:31 [Lachy]
... is intended for the WG, but anyone can still post to it
12:24:32 [DanC_lap]
comments archive:
12:24:33 [pimpbot]
Title: Mail Archives (at
12:24:54 [CharlieWiecha]
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12:26:31 [Lachy]
MikeSmith: The other thing is that the group is open to anyone
12:26:42 [Lachy]
... Anyone can be an Invited Expert
12:26:48 [CharlieWiecha]
Link to Forms-A internal working document on attribute-oriented forms notation, i.e. non-MVC authoring:
12:26:49 [Lachy]
... Need to agree to the patent policy
12:26:49 [pimpbot]
Title: Forms-A: Streamlined Expression of Data-Rich Web Applications (at
12:26:54 [DanC_lap]
(for reference, this is a patent policy FAQ: Can non-participants subscribe to a mailing list of a Working Group under the Patent Policy? )
12:26:55 [pimpbot]
Title: Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) about the W3C Patent Policy (at
12:27:01 [PIon]
+ MathML would be happy to know what happened in this morning's discussion?
12:27:03 [Lachy]
... Any other issues?
12:27:12 [nick]
Last e-mail from Keith
12:27:14 [pimpbot]
Title: Re: Status update from Keith Wells on 2008-06-02 ( from June 2008) (at
12:27:20 [Lachy]
Neil: We had a discussion about questions we had
12:27:28 [nick]
e-mail I sent on 22th of May
12:27:29 [pimpbot]
Title: Re: Status update from on 2008-05-22 ( from May 2008) (at
12:27:50 [Lachy]
... The first issue is namespaces
12:28:06 [hsivonen]
12:28:19 [Lachy]
... If you have a namespace attribute, what happens to it in the DOM?
12:28:45 [Lachy]
Hixie: This may change, but the current proposal is that if you have MathML in the document, the xmlns attribute will be in the DOM, but must have mathml namespace
12:28:53 [Lachy]
... the DOM nodes will be in MathML namespace
12:29:03 [CharlieWiecha]
LInk to Forms-A document with controls in the XForms namespace:
12:29:04 [Lachy]
Neil: Often people put in private attributes
12:29:25 [CharlieWiecha]
The above form should load (FF3 at least) directly from SVN
12:29:31 [Lachy]
Hixie: The non-mathml stuff will appear in no namespace, non-mathml xmlns declarations will be ignored
12:29:52 [hsivonen]
12:30:06 [Lachy]
Hixie: There are constraints with what we can do with namespaces.
12:30:10 [CharlieWiecha]
Form in HTML namespace (though this one seems to have trouble loading, pls use as syntax example for now):
12:30:14 [DanC_lap]
<math> <special:stuff /> </math> <-- special:stuff goes in the mathml namespace, if I'm following
12:30:22 [Lachy]
... main aim is to support MathML, not other proprietary things
12:30:43 [gsnedders]
DanC_lap: correct
12:30:46 [Lachy]
Neil: There is a problem related to Open Math
12:30:49 [MikeSmith]
ack hsivonen
12:30:59 [gsnedders]
DanC_lap: with a localName of special:stuff
12:31:01 [Lachy]
hsivonen: open math is not supported
12:31:01 [DanC_lap]
<math> <mx special:attr="abc"> </math> <-- special:attr goes in no namespace, if I'm following
12:31:16 [gsnedders]
DanC_lap: Again, correct
12:31:56 [Lachy]
Neil: The issue is not the browser support, but the ability to copy-paste and maintain the semantics
12:32:09 [Lachy]
hsivonen: non-mathml content will end up in no namespace
12:32:27 [anne] has details
12:32:28 [pimpbot]
Title: 8.2.5 Tree construction HTML 5 (at
12:32:46 [Lachy]
Hixie: Because of the constraints, if we wanted to support open math, we would have to explicitly include that in the spec
12:32:56 [DanC_lap]
hmm... that last example with presentation/semantics/content ... I'd like to see an example. I don't think I can cook one up
12:32:58 [Lachy]
... The line was drawn at HTML, MathML and SVG
12:33:11 [Lachy]
Neil: People want to style the text they have inside <mtext>
12:33:23 [anne]
hsivonen, it seems "semantics" is not supported
12:33:28 [Lachy]
... What are the rules inside of <mtext> and you encounter an HTML element, when does it revert to MathML ns?
12:33:37 [anne]
hsivonen, that is, what you're saying about semantics is not what happens
12:33:43 [anne]
hsivonen, it's true for <mtext> though
12:33:45 [MikeSmith]
12:33:51 [Lachy]
Hixie: <mglyph> will be in the mathml ns, other things will be assumed to be HTML
12:33:54 [MoZ]
12:33:58 [MoZ]
12:33:58 [Lachy]
... [other technical details]
12:34:10 [hsivonen]
anne, sorry. it's <semantics-xml>
12:34:15 [Lachy]
Neil: there is legacy mathml designed to work in IE with plugin
12:34:35 [Lachy]
... I sent an email about a year ago, what's the status of dealing with this legacy?
12:34:38 [anne]
hsivonen, doesn't change anything unless I'm missing something in the parsing algorithm
12:34:50 [Lachy]
Hixie: if there are no prefixes, it should just work
12:34:57 [Lachy]
Neil: IE requires teh prefix
12:35:01 [timeless]
12:35:06 [Lachy]
hsivonen: That doesn't seem to match my testing with MPlayer
12:35:39 [Lachy]
Neil: The way IE binds it is when the namespace is seen, invoke the activex control
12:35:43 [oedipus]
12:35:44 [pimpbot]
Title: The MathML DOM Bindings (at
12:35:49 [gsnedders]
12:35:51 [anne]
12:35:54 [pimpbot]
Title: MathPlayer: Download and Installation (at
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12:36:04 [Lachy]
... [saying the prefix is needed for IE]
12:36:10 [jallan_]
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12:36:16 [Lachy]
... There are real websites that have used prefixes
12:36:28 [Lachy]
Hixie: We could explicitly support it, but it'd be weird
12:36:38 [Joshue]
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12:36:45 [Lachy]
Neil: We need to warn content sites that prefixes will go away in the future
12:36:52 [Lachy]
MikeSmith: We have time for SVG WG tomorrow
12:37:13 [Lachy]
Neil: Everything else looks great
12:37:33 [MoZ]
12:37:36 [Lachy]
12:38:06 [Adam]
Adam has joined #html-wg
12:38:08 [Lachy]
... People are happy with the ability to get the browsers to implement a singular DOM across real world HTML
12:38:09 [MikeSmith]
12:38:17 [Lachy]
... From the perspective of GRDDL, the issues are related
12:38:30 [Lachy]
... The fundamental problem is thw ehn the WGs were chartered, HTML5 wasn't on our radar
12:38:35 [Lachy]
... We designed with compat with XHTML
12:39:02 [myakura]
12:39:03 [pimpbot]
Title: Gleaning Resource Descriptions from Dialects of Languages (GRDDL) (at
12:39:04 [pimpbot]
Title: Google (at
12:39:06 [oedipus]
12:39:06 [Lachy]
... We want to figure out how our technology remain compatible with HTML?
12:39:07 [pimpbot]
Title: W3C GRDDL Working Group (at
12:39:16 [oedipus]
12:39:17 [pimpbot]
Title: GRDDL Primer (at
12:39:20 [Lachy]
... Seeing mild uptake with Drupal
12:39:35 [oedipus]
12:39:36 [pimpbot]
Title: GRDDL Test Cases (at
12:39:38 [Lachy]
... The first thing to talk about is <link rel="">
12:39:44 [oedipus]
12:39:45 [pimpbot]
Title: W3C GRDDL service (at
12:39:50 [Lachy]
... GRDDL uses it. Takes a DOM, gives you a graph
12:39:56 [Lachy]
... Also a concern of POWDER WG
12:40:01 [hsivonen]
12:40:14 [Lachy]
... If you're a new WG, and want to have somehting like a stylesheet, we want to know how
12:40:23 [timeless]
12:40:30 [Lachy]
... the problems are with the values that are allowed in the rel attr
12:41:30 [plh]
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12:42:12 [DanC_lap]
(since we're in france, we shouldn't treat "bis" as some secret code. it's french for 2nd, yes?)
12:42:33 [Lachy]
... We need a rel value registry
12:42:36 [DanC_lap]
12:42:37 [pimpbot]
Title: ISSUE-27 - HTML Issue Tracking Tracker (at
12:42:41 [oedipus]
12:42:43 [pimpbot]
Title: HTML/AbbrAndInitialisms - ESW Wiki (at
12:42:51 [Lachy]
... Could try to combine the list for HTML and Atom and other specs
12:43:02 [DanC_lap]
bummer... tracker doesn't use the issue name for the title. it's rel-ownership @rel value ownership, registry consideration
12:43:08 [oedipus]
proposed use of RDF-type resource for reuse site-wide for abbreviated forms
12:43:14 [timeless]
12:43:22 [hsivonen]
12:43:47 [Hixie]
DanC_lap: "bis" is a fancy way of saying "again", i believe
12:43:52 [Hixie]
(in french)
12:43:55 [Lachy]
hsivonen: the Atom, XHTML2 and HTML5 all have ways of using full URIs as rel values, but they do it differently
12:43:56 [DanC_lap]
12:44:00 [Julian_Reschke]
12:44:17 [Lachy]
... GRDDL can go the the WHATWG wiki and document their rel values
12:44:21 [gsnedders]
DanC_lap: second is deuxieme
12:44:30 [Lachy]
... You can use a full URI, but there are limitations that tokens are compared case sensitively
12:44:55 [Steeeven]
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12:44:59 [Lachy]
Phil: [Chair for POWDER] I talked with Mark Nottingham
12:45:06 [DanC_lap]
(Bis, a musical term and a little-used Interlingua word meaning "encore", "again", or "twice" -- )
12:45:07 [pimpbot]
Title: BIS - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (at
12:45:15 [Lachy]
... The WHATWG wiki is one possible way. THe IANA solution is another
12:45:20 [Lachy]
12:45:28 [Lachy]
... Microformats has another
12:45:38 [Lachy]
... Everone does it differently. Can we have one
12:45:53 [Lachy]
I don't think it should be one groups wiki, I don't think it should be difficult to use
12:46:02 [Lachy]
... Need some sort of control over it
12:46:06 [gsnedders]
12:46:10 [Steeeven]
RDFa allows a CURIE
12:46:14 [anne]
From Murray Maloney:
12:46:17 [pimpbot]
Title: Hypertext links in HTML (at
12:46:29 [asmith]
asmith has joined #html-wg
12:46:30 [oedipus]
why not in space?
12:46:33 [Lachy]
... I believe that W3C would be willing to operate such a registry
12:47:02 [Laura]
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12:47:21 [Lachy]
... If it is possible to come to concensus, then we could take it the appropriate people and move forward
12:47:30 [timeless]
s/it the/it to the/
12:47:33 [fantasai]
... it could be a wiki at
12:47:42 [gsnedders]
12:47:43 [fantasai]
... it would have to be in agreement with IANA / IETF
12:47:51 [Lachy]
MikeSmith: We're not chartered as a WG to make binding decisions at face to face meetings
12:47:54 [MikeSmith]
12:47:59 [hsivonen]
12:48:01 [Lachy]
... But we could discuss what would be the best way to proceed
12:48:03 [timeless]
ack Julian_Reschke
12:48:38 [Lachy]
Julain: The goal from Mark's draft is to unify the meanings of relationship names
12:49:02 [Lachy]
... Needs to be more formal than a wiki, but I'm not going to defend IANA's registry
12:49:03 [CWilso]
12:49:05 [plh]
12:49:09 [timeless]
12:49:09 [MikeSmith]
ack hsivonen
12:49:10 [Lachy]
hsivonen: I'd be ok with sharing the short values with Atom
12:49:17 [hhalpin]
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12:49:23 [oshani]
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12:49:29 [Lachy]
... with the caveat that I haven't reviewed the Atom values to check for conflicts
12:49:57 [Lachy]
... If you use a short name, then you compare it ASCII-case-insensitively and try to get them on the same list in Atom and HTML
12:49:58 [plh]
q+ to mention
12:49:59 [pimpbot]
Title: XPointer Registry (at
12:50:05 [smedero]
DanC_lap: :-/
12:50:17 [Lachy]
... I can understand why is preferred over
12:50:24 [Lachy]
... I can understand why is preferred over
12:50:35 [gsnedders]
s/... I can understand why is preferred over
12:50:41 [MikeSmith]
12:51:02 [hhalpin]
+1 on Henri's algorithm for comparison
12:51:11 [hhalpin]
12:51:35 [DanC_lap]
xpointer registry. boo. hiss. I'm _still_ against registries at W3C.
12:51:46 [Lachy]
Philipe: Traditionally W3 have been against registrys, but we have one
12:51:49 [Steeeven]
+1 to DanC
12:52:09 [MoZ]
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12:52:15 [Lachy]
... there's a process involving mailing some list and waiting a couple of weeks
12:52:21 [Julian_Reschke]
I don't care a lot where the registry lives, at long as it is one, not just a Wiki.
12:52:37 [Lachy]
... if no-one objects, it's yours
12:52:38 [MikeSmith]
ack hhalpin
12:52:38 [Al]
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12:52:42 [Julian_Reschke]
12:52:44 [MikeSmith]
ack plh
12:52:44 [Zakim]
plh, you wanted to mention
12:52:46 [pimpbot]
Title: XPointer Registry (at
12:52:58 [oedipus]
there should be one central place to which people can turn, and is the most logical and shortest
12:53:07 [MikeSmith]
q+ Larry
12:53:11 [DanC_lap]
issue-27: note also
12:53:12 [trackbot]
ISSUE-27 @rel value ownership, registry consideration notes added
12:53:13 [MikeSmith]
q+ Murray
12:53:13 [pimpbot]
Title: XPointer Registry (at
12:53:19 [Lachy]
Harry: There's one registry to rule them all approach, or different registries. We don't care too much as long as standards people know where to go and who to ask to update it
12:53:26 [plh]
12:53:27 [MikeSmith]
q- Larry
12:54:12 [Lachy]
... IANA might make it harder. If it's W3C, then I'm ok with a wiki, or a human edited web page, with requests sent and responded to by email
12:54:25 [gsnedders] — Mark Nottingham's Link header draft (I don't think there's been a link yet)
12:54:47 [MikeSmith]
12:54:53 [MikeSmith]
ack Julian_Reschke
12:55:09 [Lachy]
Julian_Reschke: One things is that there's already an IANA registry, then if it can be used, we should
12:55:26 [DanC_lap]
(ah. I wasn't sure whether it existed yet. )
12:55:27 [pimpbot]
Title: IANA | Atom Link Relations (at
12:55:30 [Lachy]
... XHTML2 puts CURIES into the rel attribute, which concerns me a lot
12:55:48 [gsnedders]
12:55:58 [Lachy]
... We need to be careful with the question about whether a link relation can be an IRI
12:56:15 [Lachy]
... It gets tricky when you want to use it in the HTTP Link: header
12:56:31 [Lachy]
... Can map IRIs to URIs, but transformation doesn't round trip
12:56:37 [MikeSmith]
ack Murray
12:56:37 [timeless]
12:56:59 [Lachy]
Murray: There's rel values as might be recognised by browsers. Next, prev, TOC, etc.
12:57:04 [pimpbot]
planet: Misdirection <11>
12:57:31 [Lachy]
... It seems to me that it would be useful for there to be a list of all these that a commonly supported by browsers
12:57:45 [Lachy]
... The second issue is rel values that are used by other types of agents
12:58:01 [r12a]
12:58:04 [oedipus]
murray, do you mean somthing like:
12:58:05 [pimpbot]
Title: XHTML Vocabulary (at
12:58:19 [mollydotcom]
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12:58:29 [Lachy]
... The way that HTML was designed early on is that the <head profile=""> was meant to contain a list of URIs, which could be used as the place to look for the rel value
12:58:33 [Lachy]
... Used for GRDDL
12:58:35 [mnot]
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12:59:13 [Lachy]
... Use it to link to a profile document, look it up and find the ones you want to operate on
12:59:24 [MikeSmith]
RRSAgent, please make minutes
12:59:24 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate MikeSmith
12:59:28 [pimpbot]
Title: HTML WG -- 23 Oct 2008 (at
12:59:35 [Lachy]
.... It's suboptimal becuase there could be conflicts among multiple URIs
12:59:47 [Lachy]
... Would be helpful to use a URI as rel value
12:59:48 [MikeSmith]
q+ Steven
12:59:53 [tlr]
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13:00:00 [MikeSmith]
ack Steeeven
13:00:04 [MikeSmith]
ack Steven
13:00:09 [Lachy]
... Maybe we should have a new attribute like rel-uri or something to declare teh URI onthe element
13:00:28 [MikeSmith]
ack r12a
13:00:29 [oedipus]
13:00:30 [pimpbot]
Title: The global structure of an HTML document (at
13:00:51 [myakura]
xhtml2 defines rel=profile if i remember correctly
13:00:59 [Lachy]
Richard Ishida: I wanted to clarify that you can round trip between IRIs and URIs, but not IDNs and URIs
13:01:00 [hhalpin]
I think that adding new attributes unless absolutely needed is a bad idea.
13:01:01 [oedipus]
"This attribute specifies the location of one or more meta data profiles, separated by white space. For future extensions, user agents should consider the value to be a list even though this specification only considers the first URI to be significant." (HTML 4.01)
13:01:13 [Lachy]
Julian_Reschke: [example of a IRI that won't round trip]
13:01:31 [Lachy]
... We would need to specify the comparison rules
13:01:31 [MikeSmith]
13:01:41 [Lachy]
... In general, the rule has been to do a plain string comparison
13:01:49 [hsivonen]
anne, sorry, my MathML is rusty: <semantics><annotation-xml>...
13:01:49 [MikeSmith]
q+ Steeeven
13:02:44 [MikeSmith]
ack Steeeven
13:02:49 [anne]
hsivonen, neither seems to be considered by HTML5 at this point though, am I missing something?
13:02:55 [Lachy]
Steven: We need to plan for a future where everything uses IRIs
13:03:08 [MikeSmith]
13:03:45 [oedipus]
myakura, @profile is currently not in the XHTML2 draft:
13:03:47 [pimpbot]
Title: XHTML 2.0 - List of Attributes (at
13:03:59 [Lachy]
??: I understand that HTML5 is happy with an absolute URI being a rel value
13:04:01 [Lachy]
Hixie: Yes
13:04:07 [Julian_Reschke]
13:04:44 [Lachy]
s/??/Phil Archer/
13:05:18 [gsnedders]
13:05:28 [myakura]
oedipus, i meant the rel value "profile," not the attribute
13:05:30 [Lachy]
anne: I don't want to be able to write everything as a URI. e.g. rel="stylesheet" shouldn't have an equivalent using a full URI
13:05:31 [gsnedders]
13:05:44 [hhalpin]
13:05:58 [gsnedders]
This is how Atom works too, FWIW
13:06:10 [Lachy]
Phil Archer: If you see a string that isn't a URI, it is taken as a relative URI in the HTTP Link header draft
13:06:41 [DanC_lap]
("stylesheet" isn't registered at )
13:06:42 [pimpbot]
Title: IANA | Atom Link Relations (at
13:06:57 [gsnedders] and alternate are identical @rel values in Atom
13:07:07 [Julian_Reschke]
DanC: because currently it's atom only
13:07:12 [Lachy]
... We need a way to have a token that can be normalised, but be short. URIs can be long
13:07:13 [anne]
having a token registry is fine with me
13:07:20 [anne]
e.g. the WHATWG wiki :)
13:07:34 [MikeSmith]
13:07:41 [DanC_lap]
(I was just clarifying, since I heard phil say "... stylesheet, which is registered")
13:07:45 [Lachy]
DanC_lap: I prefer one registry, but don't like the W3C for that
13:07:52 [MikeSmith]
ack Julian_Reschke
13:07:53 [gsnedders]
13:08:38 [MikeSmith]
ack hhalpin
13:09:11 [MikeSmith]
ack gsnedders
13:09:22 [jallan_]
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13:09:41 [Lachy]
gsnedders: The onlhy problem I can see with absolute URIs is using current relations like "stylesheet" is that you can't express them as URIs without breaking compat
13:09:47 [Julian_Reschke]
See for registrations for existing HTML link relations
13:09:48 [pimpbot]
Title: draft-nottingham-http-link-header-02 - HTTP Header Linking (at
13:09:55 [gsnedders]
13:10:11 [gsnedders]
s/as URIs/as absolute URIs/
13:10:13 [hsivonen]
13:10:19 [Lachy]
Harry: The RDFa discussion was unclear to me, not sure what the technical issues were. Could someone please explain what the issues are>
13:10:24 [Lachy]
13:10:31 [gsnedders]
s/compat/backwards compatibility/
13:10:33 [MikeSmith]
13:10:38 [MikeSmith]
ack hsivonen
13:10:49 [Hixie]
MikeSmith, i believe you can just type "ack" to get the next speaker
13:10:52 [Lachy]
hsivonen: I was vocal in that discussion against taking RDFa as-is
13:11:08 [Lachy]
... A lot of it revolves around the way RDFa uses XML namespaces
13:11:20 [gsnedders]
(my comment was meaning using URIs in the same way Atom does)
13:11:56 [DanC_lap]
(Anne made the same comment, gsnedders . or pretty close. but maybe the scribe missed it the first time)
13:11:57 [Lachy]
... You have to know the namespace mapping context from the lower layer, that you then use as an RDF propery
13:12:40 [Lachy]
... It's confusing for authors to have to deal with these namespace mappings
13:12:45 [timbl]
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13:13:19 [Lachy]
... there's a problem for implementers ...
13:13:37 [Lachy]
... [something about parsing and namespace mapping issues]
13:13:41 [DanC_lap]
(hmm... I wonder if the TAG finding on qnames in content brings up that dynamic/scripting concern.)
13:14:29 [Lachy]
... We have a case where the DOM consistency princple is violated
13:14:54 [Lachy]
... xml:lang in the XML namespace, the lang attribute in no namespace. This has caused a lot of bugs
13:15:02 [Lachy]
... That's why I object to using XML syntax
13:15:06 [Norbert2]
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13:15:12 [Steeeven]
13:15:35 [Lachy]
... The other objection was related to people who aren't in the RDF community having to pay the "RDF tax"
13:15:36 [gsnedders]
RRSAgent, please make minutes
13:15:36 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate gsnedders
13:15:37 [pimpbot]
Title: HTML WG -- 23 Oct 2008 (at
13:16:07 [Lachy]
... [example of having to compare local name and namespace for an element]
13:16:15 [gsnedders]
Chair: MikeSmith
13:16:24 [Lachy]
... every time I have to do that, it causes me to do something costly that doesn't really solve a problem
13:16:53 [Lachy]
... RDF has similar complications
13:17:28 [anne]
From Murray Maloney: Murray is the only person in the world who voted against namespaces in XML
13:17:31 [timeless]
13:17:33 [Lachy]
... I'd like a solution similar to GRDDL. People who want it can, but doesn't cause problems for people that don't
13:17:35 [Hixie]
13:17:39 [Hixie]
aw, i was wrong
13:17:41 [gsnedders]
13:17:42 [Hixie]
ack s
13:17:44 [CWilso]
ack Steeven
13:17:44 [hhalpin]
13:17:47 [Lachy]
Steven: CURIEs aren't namespaces, they're just shortened URIs
13:18:04 [Lachy]
Steven; Similar things appear in e.g. Wikipedia
13:18:14 [Lachy]
13:18:38 [Lachy]
... The other thing is that RDFa works in HTML now.
13:18:42 [hsivonen]
13:18:45 [Lachy]
... People use JavaScript to extract it
13:18:53 [Lachy]
... I don't see what the problem is
13:18:58 [CWilso]
13:19:01 [Lachy]
... If you don't want it, don't use it
13:19:08 [CWilso]
ack hhalpin
13:19:31 [Lachy]
Harry: We generally have concensus that maybe the way XML implemented namespaces is kind of crazy
13:19:45 [MikeSmith]
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13:19:46 [foo]
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13:19:51 [Lachy]
... But it's interesting that CURIEs as just one string, unlike prefixes/localnames. It's simpler
13:20:22 [Lachy]
... 2 issues
13:20:34 [MikeSmith]
13:20:35 [Lachy]
... How can we use these URIs in attribute values? Is there a short version of the URI?
13:20:50 [Lachy]
... This is a problem for people who want to use RDF
13:21:04 [Lachy]
... Maybe all that needs to happen is that RDF technologies need to be clear about how they fit within HTML5
13:21:23 [arun]
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13:21:44 [Lachy]
... as long as there's a way that RDFa can signal the use of CURIEs
13:21:52 [MikeSmith]
ack hsivonen
13:22:08 [Lachy]
hsivonen: It would be objectionable if the mechanism for associating the base URI with the prefixes were different for HTML5 and XHTML5
13:22:25 [Lachy]
Harry: XHTML5 just uses xmlns?
13:22:40 [Lachy]
hsivonen: Currently there is no defintion of RDFa in XHTML5
13:23:11 [Lachy]
hsivonen: You don't have a property attribute in XHTML5 today, it's not specified how to do RDFa now
13:23:28 [Steeeven]
<meta name="prefixes" content="xhtml foo" />
13:23:29 [Lachy]
... The RDFa community assumes you would do it in XHTML5 the same way as XHTML 1.0
13:23:30 [pimpbot]
Title: XHTML namespace (at
13:23:50 [Lachy]
Harry: Would HTML5 be willing to sort out some way to use short CURIE like values
13:23:54 [oshani]
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13:24:03 [Lachy]
hsivonen: I think the indirection of prefixes is a bug
13:24:26 [Lachy]
... If the URIs are so long that you don't want to deal with them, then that suggests a problem with the RDF naming scheme
13:25:04 [Lachy]
I suggestion you use a registry, and concatenate the short values with a base URI
13:25:06 [Julian_Reschke]
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13:26:09 [MikeSmith]
13:26:20 [MikeSmith]
ack Julian_Reschke
13:26:21 [hhalpin]
I'd just like to note that instead of a religious war, it appears the delta between *some* usable form of RDFa and HTML5 is relatively small.
13:26:29 [Lachy]
Julian_Reschke: What hsivonen just proposed seems like a harder indirection mechanism
13:26:29 [JonathanJ]
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13:26:37 [hhalpin]
13:26:47 [Lachy]
hsivonen: yes, but the "RDF tax" is only paid by the RDF community
13:27:08 [MikeSmith]
13:27:12 [MikeSmith]
13:27:15 [MikeSmith]
ack hhalpin
13:27:52 [anne]
Steeeven, note that technically the xmlns attribute from an HTML parser is different from an XML parser (the latter has a namespace)
13:28:25 [anne]
Steeeven, same for xmlns:* of course
13:28:29 [MikeSmith]
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13:36:38 [hhalpin]
anne - so, unknown attributes though, such as a unknown non-namespaced xmlns, would still be in the DOM and thus serialized by XHTML5.
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13:54:43 [MikeSmith]
13:54:44 [pimpbot]
Title: Sam Ruby: Misdirection (at
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14:02:26 [anne]
hhalpin, actually, xmlns couldn't be serialized back
14:02:29 [Joshue]
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14:02:56 [nessy]
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14:03:45 [anne]
hhalpin, though maybe it indeed depends on the serializer
14:03:52 [Adam]
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14:04:41 [Lachy]
Present+ Sylvia Phifer
14:04:56 [Lachy]
14:04:58 [anne]
so is table delayed?
14:05:06 [Lachy]
+Sylvia Phifer
14:05:10 [hsivonen]
s/Sylvia Phifer/Silvia Pfeiffer/
14:05:15 [MikeSmith]
anne, in 5 minutes
14:05:16 [jallan_]
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14:05:49 [gsnedders]
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14:06:27 [Lachy]
Sylvia: [About <video>]
14:06:32 [ShaneM]
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14:06:47 [Lachy]
... We're talking about fragment identifiers applying to media resources, like video
14:07:01 [Lachy]
e.g. video.ogg#time=5,12
14:07:15 [unl]
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14:07:15 [MikeSmith]
14:07:24 [Lachy]
... also query strings like &track=1,2,3
14:07:30 [unl]
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14:07:46 [Lachy]
... For video, audio and images
14:07:48 [Hixie]
RB: Please don't use an ampersand!
14:07:56 [Lachy]
... The effect it might have on the <video> and <audio> element in HTML5
14:08:14 [Roland_]
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14:08:27 [Lachy]
Hixie: start and end attributes will be removed. They overlap with this stuff
14:08:39 [nick]
nick has joined #html-wg
14:08:44 [Lachy]
... We're simplifying the looping attributes
14:09:07 [Lachy]
Raphael: Establishing the communication between the UA and server
14:09:20 [Lachy]
... through HTTP headers
14:09:33 [Lachy]
... The UA will still know that they only got a fragment of the resource
14:09:45 [anne]
Hixie: we'll replace looping attributes with a simple loop boolean attribute
14:09:50 [Lachy]
... Please join the Media Fragments working group if interested. It's open, public mailing list
14:10:22 [Lachy]
Topic: table headers
14:10:39 [Lachy]
Joshue: The issue is how to mark up complex data tables, header associations
14:11:20 [Joshue]
this is scary url
14:11:23 [pimpbot]
Title: HTML/IssueTableHeaders - ESW Wiki (at
14:12:09 [oedipus]
oedipus has left #html-wg
14:12:34 [raphael]
Media Fragment Home: and public mailing list:
14:12:36 [pimpbot]
Title: W3C Media Fragments Working Group (at
14:12:58 [Joshue]
These are also relevent
14:13:00 [pimpbot]
115822:, P2, NEW, 13The headers attribute should be able to reference a td
14:13:03 [Lachy]
Al Gilman: The operational requirement from the consumer is associating an arbitrary cell with any other cell that provide context for interpreting the data
14:13:20 [mjs]
Hixie, fragments in the media URI aren't really replacements for start/end/etc timing control attributes, because you can't readily change them through API
14:13:24 [Lachy]
... Chained headers
14:13:34 [Lachy]
... Multiple tiers of context information within tables
14:13:41 [nick]
nick has joined #html-wg
14:13:48 [Joshue]
Gez's complex table example
14:13:49 [pimpbot]
Title: Child investment portfolios (at
14:13:54 [Lachy]
... It doesn't work in HTML4 because you can't have a TH that is a header for a TH
14:13:56 [mjs]
Hixie, you have to parse and reassmeble the URI to do it
14:14:08 [oshani]
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14:14:09 [marcos]
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14:14:11 [MikeSmith]
14:14:22 [mjs]
Hixie, and I think doing so would per the spec require the video to be reloaded as well
14:14:28 [Hixie]
mjs, join the media fragments wg and let them know :)
14:14:38 [Hixie]
(or send feedback)
14:14:53 [Lachy]
AlGilman: There has been dispute on the mailing list, people using many different terms.
14:14:56 [mjs]
Hixie, I don't see how the media fragments WG can address HTML5-defined DOM APIs....
14:15:17 [mjs]
Hixie, are you saying you want them to take over the HTMLMediaElement interface?
14:15:26 [Lachy]
AlGilman: There are 2 ways to do it: 1. Have a TD cell be a target of a headers attribute.
14:15:32 [Al]
Al has joined #html-wg
14:15:35 [Hixie]
mjs, maybe their use cases aren't relevant, or won't apply to html5, and that would be good for them to know
14:15:40 [Lachy]
... 2. Allow TH to reference another TH with a headers attribute
14:15:45 [Joshue]
some more background on a proposed solution using existing header/id combinations which is well supported in current AT
14:15:48 [pimpbot]
Title: HTML/Action72Headers - ESW Wiki (at
14:16:02 [Lachy]
... We would certainly like to make scope more effective
14:16:16 [mjs]
Hixie, I'm giving you feedback on your minuted statement that "start and end attributes will be removed. They overlap with this stuff"
14:16:19 [Joshue]
Smart span algorithm
14:16:20 [pimpbot]
Title: Smart span algorithm for table cells from James Graham on 2008-03-10 ( from March 2008) (at
14:16:28 [Hixie]
mjs: oh they'll be removed regardless of this
14:16:34 [Lachy]
... But we need to come together on a proposal for what all of the markup features are, including the headers attribute, algorithm, etc.
14:16:37 [noah]
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14:16:41 [Hixie]
mjs: (probably)
14:16:45 [mjs]
Hixie, why?
14:16:51 [Hixie]
see recent feedback to the list
14:16:57 [Hixie]
there aren't good use cases
14:17:12 [Lachy]
... We still have to work out detalis
14:17:15 [mjs]
for audio there are
14:17:17 [tlr]
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14:17:19 [anne]
14:17:20 [anne]
14:17:46 [mjs]
playing a fragment of an audio clip is easier than editing the actual audio file
14:18:31 [sicking]
mjs: but do you want to change that fragment?
14:18:34 [MikeSmith]
14:18:35 [Joshue]
14:18:40 [anne]
14:18:59 [MikeSmith]
ack Joshue
14:19:05 [Lachy]
Joshue: There are a couple of solutions
14:19:07 [darobin]
mjs, as we say in French, absent people are always wrong
14:19:26 [Lachy]
... about half way down the wiki page
14:19:32 [mjs]
sicking, let's say you are writing a web app that lets you select a range from an audio or video clip and then play that
14:19:44 [Lachy]
... Smart headers algorithm, TH referencing TH, etc.
14:19:45 [nessy]
mjs, media fragment URIs allow you to do just that: play a fragment
14:19:51 [Lachy]
... Smart Headers is a good algorithm
14:20:01 [Hixie]
mjs, for that use case, you'd use javascript anyway, so no need for anything but the existing js api
14:20:02 [Lachy]
... Allowing headers="" to reference a TD element
14:20:02 [mjs]
nessy, but they don't let you change what fragment is referred to without having to construct a new URI
14:20:09 [Lachy]
... is also an elegant solution
14:20:29 [Lachy]
... headers="" is widely supported by screen readers
14:20:42 [Lachy]
... lets see if we can come to some kind of concensus
14:20:43 [MikeSmith]
14:20:44 [Joshue]
14:20:46 [pimpbot]
Title: HTML/IssueTableHeaders - ESW Wiki (at
14:20:47 [nessy]
mjs, what's the difference between changing a URI in a href attribute and changing the start and end attributes?
14:20:50 [mjs]
Hixie, so you don't mean to remove the equivalents of this stuff in the JS API?
14:21:09 [Lachy]
BenMillard: At the moment, Firefox doesn't do anything with scope or headers
14:21:14 [Hixie]
mjs, i wouldn't suggest removing curentTime and the cue range API, which is what you'd use for this.
14:21:20 [Lachy]
AlGilman: But it's all in the DOM, even though it doesn't do anything special with them
14:21:22 [mjs]
nessy, creating a specially formatted string is a sloppy API design
14:21:26 [Hixie]
mjs, seek to the start, cue a pause at the end, and play
14:21:34 [mjs]
Hixie, that doesn't let you actually change the range that the play controls reflect
14:21:35 [maddiin]
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14:21:51 [Hixie]
mjs, nor do the existing attributes
14:22:09 [Lachy]
Michael Cooper: A lot of accessibility is done through the acessibility API and would require the UA to do a mapping from the HTML DOM to that API
14:22:22 [Lachy]
... But it's also done through the DOM for web content
14:22:29 [mjs]
Hixie, what do you mean? I would expect if start and end are specified, the little slider thing goes between start and end, not the full time range of the underlying media item
14:22:40 [Hixie]
mjs: what if loopend is after end?
14:22:47 [anne]
14:22:58 [Hixie]
anne: i'm not scribe, it doesn't matter if i have a colon
14:23:06 [anne]
14:23:28 [mjs]
Hixie, the loop attributes make things more complicated, presumably you need the union of {start, end} and {loopstart, loopend} to be presented
14:23:34 [Lachy]
Joshue; it's important to bear in mind the limited support for scope="" in current UA and AT
14:23:43 [MikeSmith]
14:23:54 [mjs]
Hixie, I tentatively agree that fine-grained loop control is probably more complex than justified
14:23:54 [Hixie]
mjs, i don't really understand the use case you are presenting, but i really should pay more attention to the room
14:24:11 [mjs]
Hixie, although "just do it in script" is not a good solution for looping
14:24:27 [Lachy]
MikeSmith: Is there a time line for when you'll get to the remaining table headers feedback?
14:24:43 [nessy]
mjs, we will have a boolean loop attribute
14:24:45 [Lachy]
Hixie: I'll get to it when I get to it, but I can prioritise it if there are vendors that need me to
14:25:00 [nessy]
mjs, that's an independent issue
14:25:07 [mjs]
nessy, a string syntax is not a substitute for a proper API (though an ok way to specify things declaratively)
14:25:18 [Lachy]
AlGilman: This is not an urgent matter, because in the short term people can still use headers="" in HTML4
14:25:34 [nessy]
mjs, there already is an API to control media resources
14:25:35 [mjs]
nessy, you don't talk to real media APIs by formatting special strings to tell them what time range to play and how many times
14:25:36 [SallyC]
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14:25:45 [hsivonen]
14:25:50 [nessy]
mjs, the start and end attributes don't provide you with an API
14:25:56 [MikeSmith]
q+ Ben
14:26:00 [Lachy]
... I'd like us to work with Ben to tune the algorithm, and getting that into HTML5 and implemented in browsers
14:26:00 [mjs]
nessy, I am talking primarily about the HTMLMediaElement interface
14:26:12 [nessy]
mjs, so am I
14:26:12 [mjs]
nessy, not the content attributes
14:26:19 [Lachy]
Hixie: It sounds like sooner rather than later would help, so I can help with that in the next few months
14:26:21 [mjs]
(unfortunately the word "content" is ambiguous)
14:26:34 [Joshue]
14:26:40 [mjs]
nessy, the start and end attributes in the HTMLMediaElement interface certainly do provide an API
14:26:47 [nessy]
mjs, we should take this offline from this room
14:26:50 [smedero]
karl: ben doesn't have a laptop so I'll jump in: mozilla
14:27:05 [Lachy]
AlGilman: If you only have headers="", then it's grotty for authors. But we should move forward with change to improve that
14:27:07 [nessy]
mjs, there will be more discussions on the mailing lists
14:27:20 [Lachy]
MikeSmith: Does that timeline work for you guys?
14:27:36 [Lachy]
Joshue: I can't speak for any vendors, but it would be nice
14:27:56 [karl]
smedero, I hope it is enough for him to be doing that correctly without making his "life at risk".
14:28:07 [billmason]
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14:28:11 [Lachy]
Hixie: The remaining ~2000 currently in the queue should be dealt with within a year or so
14:28:17 [MikeSmith]
14:28:24 [MikeSmith]
ack hsivonen
14:28:35 [Lachy]
hsivonen: There's an open moz bug about exposing table relationships to accessibility APIs
14:29:00 [Lachy]
... I encourage you to keep an eye on the mozilla bug, especially if the Smart Headers algorithm will be going in the spec
14:29:21 [Lachy]
... It would be a shame to have them implement what's in the current spec, and then have it updated in the spec later
14:29:34 [MikeSmith]
ack Ben
14:29:47 [Lachy]
BenMillard: Al mentioned tuning the proposal. I wouldn't want to kind of shortcut the proposal
14:30:02 [anne]
14:30:05 [Lachy]
... I think that the algorithm in Jame's inspector should be "Hixified" into the spec
14:30:30 [Lachy]
... I think an Action item would be to document the diff between the spec and Smart Headers algorithm
14:30:36 [gsnedders]
14:30:54 [MikeSmith]
ack Joshue
14:31:18 [MichaelC]
q+ to ask if it's not more efficient to get a round of feedback from implementers before putting a proposal in the spec
14:31:25 [Lachy]
Joshue: One of the things that came out in the PF meeting was that we were all talking about the same thing, using different names
14:31:33 [Lachy]
... We should know what we're talking about
14:31:38 [Lachy]
... get on the same page
14:31:54 [Lachy]
14:31:55 [MikeSmith]
14:31:58 [MikeSmith]
ack MikeSmith
14:32:02 [MikeSmith]
ack MichaelC
14:32:02 [Zakim]
MichaelC, you wanted to ask if it's not more efficient to get a round of feedback from implementers before putting a proposal in the spec
14:32:13 [nick]
nick has left #html-wg
14:32:16 [Lachy]
MichaelC: It might be more efficient if there is a round oof feedback from implementers before it's in the psec
14:32:19 [Lachy]
14:32:29 [Lachy]
14:32:44 [anne]
14:32:57 [hsivonen]
14:33:03 [pimpbot]
Bug 441445: was not found.
14:33:15 [anne]
14:33:59 [Joshue]
From the PF meeting we found an issue around the use of terminology in this issue. Conceptual headers, chained headers, nested headers etc are all essentially the same. I would like to see the terminology tied up so we are all on the same page. This could help the process all round.
14:35:34 [Lachy]
AlGilman: What we want to do in face time, we've done
14:36:04 [hsivonen]
14:36:13 [mjs]
anne, do you recall the title of the thread?
14:36:25 [MikeSmith]
ack hsivonen
14:36:25 [anne]
mjs, i'll look for you
14:36:43 [Lachy]
hsivonen: I heard that there was direction of concensus on the validation side that headers would point to th, be valid and point to td might not be valid
14:37:02 [anne]
mjs, "video tag : loop for ever "
14:37:03 [MichaelC]
Just to clarify, since it needed verbal clarification, I do not advocate implementation of proposals, but was suggesting implementers might have worthwhile insights on a proposal (but should not implement it until it matures)
14:37:26 [Lachy]
AlGilman: The current practice doesn't use HTML5 validation yet, we don't need to trouble you now
14:38:00 [anne]
mjs, people from Apple have been involved in the thread, e.g.
14:38:07 [pimpbot]
Title: [whatwg] video tag : loop for ever (at
14:38:15 [ed]
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14:38:16 [Lachy]
MikeSmith: We could talk about HTTP auth
14:38:23 [mjs]
that's a long thread
14:38:29 [Lachy]
Julian_Reschke: OK
14:38:36 [Lachy]
Topic: HTTP Authentication
14:39:15 [anne]
scribe: anne
14:39:17 [Lachy]
MikeSmith: Lachlan will not be scribing tomorrow because he's done such a great job today
14:40:12 [anne]
AG: the Web Security Contenxt WG deals with the look and feel
14:40:37 [anne]
AG: of authentication dialogs
14:40:44 [anne]
[scribe is unclear if this was actually said]
14:40:57 [anne]
14:41:40 [anne]
[MS describes topics for tomorrow]
14:42:02 [anne]
[Topic discussed now will be HTTP authentication integration with HTML]
14:42:43 [anne]
HS: will unconference sessions be integrated into this schedule
14:42:49 [anne]
MS: we need to talk about the authoring guide
14:42:58 [anne]
HS: 11:45 AM will be about implied ARIA semantics
14:43:08 [anne]
MS: that is until 12:30 AM
14:43:13 [anne]
14:43:53 [Hixie]
AM is 00:00..11:59 and PM is 12:00..23:59
14:44:14 [anne]
Topic: HTML integration point for HTTP authentication
14:44:36 [anne]
JR: issue is that user agents put up a primitive user interface that authors cannot style
14:44:53 [anne]
JR: originally the idea was that the response would actually return HTML with a login form, but that never happened
14:45:08 [Hixie]
14:45:15 [anne]
JR: user agents only pop up this dialog which is one reason user agents are not using authentication
14:45:25 [anne]
JR: there are other issues: e.g. i18n
14:45:28 [aroben]
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14:45:37 [anne]
JR: these are not being solved because of chicken / egg problem
14:46:15 [MikeSmith]
can somebody please find and post the link to the related discussion for this that was on the WHATWG list recently?
14:46:28 [MikeSmith]
aaron schwartz e-mail, I mean
14:46:40 [anne]
JR: AvK mentioned that another missing piece is the logout button
14:47:10 [anne]
JR: I don't have a personal agenda. Just noticed there was an old proposal 1999? where the same issue was described
14:47:14 [Hixie]
14:47:15 [pimpbot]
Title: WHATWG Issues List (at
14:47:26 [anne]
JR: simple form that the user agent would know that there's a user name and password and use that
14:47:26 [sicking]
14:47:37 [anne]
14:47:50 [MikeSmith]
ack Hixie
14:48:19 [anne]
IH: I was wondering why we want HTTP auth to succeed
14:48:49 [anne]
JR: it's not necessarily HTTP authentication, but form based login works very badly if the user is not a person
14:49:32 [anne]
JS: [missed]
14:49:51 [anne]
IH: there are other ways as well, with tokens and cookies
14:50:00 [anne]
JR: what specs?
14:50:04 [anne]
IH: cookies, HTTP, etc.
14:50:21 [anne]
JR: you need out of band information to realize the server requires authentication
14:50:24 [Philip]
MikeSmith, ?
14:50:25 [pimpbot]
Title: [whatwg] fixing the authentication problem (at
14:50:26 [anne]
IH: you need that anyway
14:50:44 [anne]
JR: there's a framework for that; not sure we should get rid of it
14:50:52 [anne]
IH: it's not clear we should make it better if it's not needed
14:51:39 [anne]
JS: whenever we work on widgets, "we want to style this form widget"
14:51:48 [anne]
JR: that's the issue I want to get fixed
14:52:06 [Philip]
(in which the problem is that people don't want to use the proper solution (HTTPS), and instead use the worst possible solution (sending passwords in the clear) because the compromise (HTTP Digest) is ugly)
14:52:11 [MikeSmith]
ack sicking
14:52:14 [anne]
IH: not sure that's the right answer, but not immediately obvious why it isn't
14:52:15 [Philip]
(or at least that's how I might interpret it)
14:52:27 [anne]
JS (sicking): HTTP auth is broken in many many ways
14:52:57 [anne]
... I have 50 different passwords to remember; if one of these sites start failing, I'm hosed
14:53:25 [anne]
... the form based login is really bad. Teaches phishing and such.
14:53:32 [Yudai]
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14:53:33 [anne]
... we need to rid of passwords entirely
14:53:44 [anne]
... OpenID, infocards, Microsoft Password
14:53:47 [MikeSmith]
14:54:01 [anne]
... should we go directly for that, or should we try to make incremental changes on the mechanisms that exist today
14:54:20 [Julian_Reschke]
14:54:27 [anne]
... e.g. making HTTP auth secure (digest does clear text)
14:54:38 [anne]
... and fix the styling issue so people will use it
14:54:46 [Hixie]
14:54:49 [CWilso]
s/Microsoft Password/LiveID
14:54:59 [anne]
... should we go for ID management or should we try to do some fixes
14:55:08 [anne]
CWilso, that's not what he said :p
14:55:28 [Hixie]
14:55:33 [MikeSmith]
ack Julian_Reschke
14:55:41 [anne]
IH: The way to solve the problem is to not assume HTTP auth is the solution
14:55:46 [adrianba]
anne, he said Microsoft Passport
14:55:52 [hsivonen]
14:55:56 [Hixie]
s/to not/not to/
14:56:25 [anne]
JR: the HTTP auth framework does in theory support other authentication schemes
14:56:27 [anne]
... e.g. OAuth
14:56:53 [anne]
... one example, portal project where document management was through the browser and webdav clients
14:57:04 [nessy]
14:57:08 [anne]
... the automated clients need HTTP authentication to work
14:57:18 [anne]
... servers start sniffing user agent string or even method name
14:57:24 [hhalpin]
Although I am technically outside, and would like things like LiveID/OpenID and OAuth pushed, I am not sure if they should be put in HTML5.
14:57:28 [anne]
adrianba, right, so the correction was wrong, doesn't matter though
14:57:40 [MikeSmith]
14:57:44 [MikeSmith]
ack hsivonen
14:57:45 [anne]
... etc. need nasty workarounds with the current situation
14:57:45 [sicking]
14:58:10 [anne]
HS: one of the important things for adding something to the platform requires a rollout strategy that cannot be blocked by a browser vendor
14:58:30 [anne]
HS: e.g. ARIA, the way it was defined it could not be ignored; though it did end up being implemented by all four in record time
14:58:59 [anne]
HS: how do you see the rollout strategy where you use OpenID for browser authentication and OAuth for servers
14:59:08 [MikeSmith]
14:59:08 [anne]
JR: I don't know; I thought brainstorming would be good
14:59:12 [MikeSmith]
ack nessy
14:59:30 [anne]
SP: I had a chat with TBL last night; he didn't like OpenID but he had some ideas for a new authentication scheme
14:59:40 [anne]
SP: maybe someone should have a chat with TBL about this
14:59:45 [MikeSmith]
ack sicking
14:59:54 [anne]
JS (sicking): I'm not sure what he didn't like about OpenID
15:00:07 [anne]
SP: complexity; going to another website, extra steps, etc.
15:00:27 [anne]
JS (sicking): I think with having OpenID in the browser will solve that problem
15:00:47 [anne]
JS (sicking): the redirect is needed because they innovate within the browser box
15:00:55 [anne]
JS (sicking): as vendors we can change the browser
15:01:04 [anne]
... we had issues, not sure what the issues were
15:01:14 [anne]
... people have voiced security concerns with OpenID
15:01:25 [anne]
... my ultimate point was having ID management rather than password management
15:01:28 [MikeSmith]
15:01:36 [hhalpin]
15:01:45 [anne]
AG: ... working with captchas(sp?)
15:01:53 [tlr]
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15:01:55 [anne]
... we want to encourage single sign on
15:02:46 [anne]
... the PFWG is reopening our note regarding captchas
15:03:09 [anne]
... the state of the art is that these tests that the commercial botnot businesses can't crack, people can't do either
15:03:19 [anne]
... it's more rationale to use a single sign on service
15:03:33 [anne]
... for more of these transactions and we'll be pushing people in that direction
15:03:40 [MikeSmith]
ack hhalpin
15:03:59 [anne]
HH: nobody disagrees with single sign on and that it should be put in the browser
15:04:06 [anne]
HH: there are several solutions in this space
15:04:14 [sicking]
15:04:17 [anne]
HH: should HTML5 endorse one solution or provide a hook
15:04:30 [anne]
HH: or will the true solution arrive in a year or two, maybe wait it out a bit
15:04:48 [anne]
HH: really important, should be done
15:05:07 [anne]
AG: does this sound like a requirement for security API between the browser and the protocols
15:05:18 [anne]
HH: not sure how to design such a hook
15:05:25 [MikeSmith]
15:05:36 [anne]
HH: I would like to see some statistics on various ID mechanisms
15:05:48 [anne]
AG: we should live with the redirects for longer is what you're saying
15:05:59 [MikeSmith]
ack sicking
15:06:00 [anne]
HH: get some stats, see what's out there;
15:06:16 [anne]
sicking: I think HTML5 should be completely silent on this
15:06:28 [anne]
sicking: I think that should be a separate work item
15:06:40 [hsivonen]
15:06:45 [hhalpin]
this is really important, someone should eventually sort this whole identity thing out.
15:06:48 [anne]
sicking: we're sure to get something better eventually
15:06:55 [SallyC]
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15:07:19 [anne]
sicking: there might be some API that is needed but in general you'd like to have the security features separately designed
15:07:30 [MikeSmith]
ack hsivonen
15:08:02 [anne]
HS: I have a question about what candidates are out there other than OpenID, SAML
15:08:03 [hsivonen]
15:08:05 [Adam]
15:08:07 [pimpbot]
Title: Security Assertion Markup Language - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (at
15:08:14 [hhalpin]
also, note that I recommended some tight liasoning with people from id and security fields.
15:08:41 [MikeSmith]
15:08:54 [anne]
AB: MS has intorduced infocards
15:09:01 [anne]
15:09:14 [MikeSmith]
15:09:23 [hhalpin]
I always thought it was OpenID/Liberty Alliance and LiveID/Passport were the two big options in this space.
15:09:27 [hhalpin]
There may be other experimental ones.
15:09:49 [hhalpin]
+1 that HTML5 is interested in these issues.
15:10:31 [anne]
TR: no particular input right now
15:10:41 [anne]
MS: where do you think we are?
15:10:51 [hhalpin]
Has Microsoft adopted OpenID anywhere? I thought it was possible, would HTML5 endorsement make a difference?
15:10:59 [aaronlev_]
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15:11:04 [anne]
JR: I wished we would have made some progress on that, but it seems we need more research
15:11:17 [anne]
MS: maybe discussion needs to continue in Web Apps?
15:11:24 [tlr]
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15:11:28 [anne]
IH: depends on the solution, not clear what the requirements are
15:11:44 [anne]
JS: is it a W3C matter?
15:11:50 [anne]
15:12:00 [anne]
JR: IETF is waiting for W3C; it's a user agent issue
15:12:07 [MikeSmith]
q+ tlr
15:12:14 [CWilso]
Actually, my understanding is infocards interoperates w/OpenID if desired
15:12:14 [anne]
sicking: depends on the technical solution probably
15:12:24 [anne]
sicking: I think it should be an effort solely concentrated on security
15:12:28 [CWilso]
(And it's called CardSpace now, not infocards)
15:12:30 [MikeSmith]
ack tlr
15:12:58 [adrianba]
infocard/cardspace =
15:13:00 [pimpbot]
Title: Windows CardSpace (at
15:13:01 [anne]
TR: in principle that makes a lot of sense. (TR says he missed bits of the discussion) The one thing I'm wondering what problem you are looking at?
15:13:14 [hsivonen]
15:13:16 [anne]
JS: I don't see how headers solve the problem
15:13:42 [anne]
JR: the issue is as follows. you do a GET request. server wants you to authenticate. can do a 200 with HTML form
15:13:51 [anne]
... works extremely badly with clients that are not HTML clients
15:14:13 [anne]
... or you can use 401 and then you've got a problem in HTML agents that they pop up a dialog most designers and people running servers don't like
15:14:15 [anne]
... both are bad
15:14:23 [MikeSmith]
q+ Al
15:14:56 [anne]
... you really don't want to reply with 200 OK if you require login
15:15:03 [hsivonen]
15:15:03 [anne]
IH: there's also sites where you can either login or not login
15:15:20 [anne]
TR: the current HTTP auth mechanism are no longer state of the art (to be polite)
15:15:33 [anne]
TR: there is a question of what HTTP auth should look like
15:15:44 [anne]
TR: there is also something like client certificates e.g. SSL
15:15:47 [hhalpin]
CWilson - that was my understanding as well, but I was not sure if that had ever happened yet. Thus my point that if HTML5 gets in this space, then maybe asking some advice from experts from LiveID, Passport, Liberty, OpenID, etc. and some data is the way to go. Also, could this activity, which sounds large, be done at HTML5 or somewhere else that integrates with HTML5?
15:16:28 [anne]
TR: [..] this is a rather large ocean. in the CABForum they are trying to find out what the obstacles are with client side PKI
15:16:47 [anne]
TR: is assuming a working PKI; problems with e.g. business and social interaction
15:17:10 [anne]
TR: there is a member submission from 1997 along these lines; might be useful
15:17:23 [anne]
TR: assuming this will solve auth problems on large scale would be naive
15:17:32 [anne]
TR: assuming it would solve phishing is massively naive
15:17:38 [anne]
TR: this is a HARD problem
15:18:06 [anne]
TR: the 1997 document is not solving that problem, I suggest to not rathole in this topic in this WG
15:18:18 [anne]
TR: don't think this is the right community (no disrespect)
15:18:27 [anne]
TR: one solution to look at is OAuth
15:18:42 [anne]
TR: using HTTP and HTTP auth to pass authorization tokens around
15:18:54 [anne]
TR: this you use to e.g. upload your Flickr photos
15:19:14 [anne]
TR: will be discussed at IETF meeting in Minn... in the US
15:19:15 [adrianba]
hhalpin, cardspace does work with openid - i have my openid in an infocard, it does require the site to do something extra to enable cards though
15:19:23 [anne]
TR: I won't be there, pay attention at the IETF though
15:19:36 [anne]
TR: they're attacking a useful problem; not saying it's attacking the same problem
15:19:55 [anne]
s/same problem/all the problems discussed here/
15:20:05 [Julian_Reschke]
15:20:10 [pimpbot]
Title: User Agent Authentication Form Elements (at
15:20:11 [anne]
AG: the HTML processor in the browser is going to see an API
15:20:19 [anne]
... going to be disconnect point so you can't change schemes
15:20:25 [anne]
... you can annotate on that
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15:20:33 [anne]
... would be easier if we had an XForms model
15:20:37 [anne]
... what's defined is what you can style
15:20:47 [anne]
15:21:17 [anne]
... scheme by scheme you get controls that the web author then can style
15:21:38 [anne]
... so first IETF, then HTML so you get the style
15:22:08 [anne]
TR: one problem with usability of passwords; password managers can log what passwords are entered when you login
15:22:41 [anne]
TR: what can be useful is to distinguish the password fields for registration
15:22:52 [anne]
TR: the user agent can take control and help out
15:22:55 [hsivonen]
15:23:04 [MikeSmith]
ack Al
15:23:18 [Hixie]
you can set pattern="" on type=password already in html5
15:23:23 [MikeSmith]
ack hsivonen
15:23:24 [Hixie]
there's no way to say it's for a new password though
15:23:42 [anne]
HS: if you have passwords you can use these from any browser
15:23:44 [Adam]
15:24:00 [anne]
HS: in countries were banks want some weird auth scheme, e.g. Java
15:24:15 [anne]
HS: if you have a full browser but no binary plugins on a phone, you cannot get authenticated
15:25:06 [anne]
HS: it's important that new mechanisms work on mobiles as well
15:25:25 [anne]
HS: e.g. native OpenID support in the UA; but fallback for mobiles
15:26:00 [anne]
TR: in order to compat phishing we need to [...]
15:26:18 [anne]
TR: one way out of that would be to help people out in the interaction
15:26:36 [anne]
TR: just taking the UI out will not solve that problem
15:26:54 [anne]
TR: e.g. Google wants to style their logins forms to the pixel
15:27:27 [MikeSmith]
ack Adam
15:27:44 [anne]
AB: at boeing it would be really good if we got single sign on
15:27:53 [anne]
AB: lots of different APIs that could make use of that
15:28:38 [anne]
TR: you should point people to boeing presentations given at various concordia workshops
15:28:52 [MikeSmith]
15:29:17 [karl]
15:29:18 [Adam]
s/single sing on/single sign on standard/
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15:30:38 [anne]
Topic: AOB
15:30:55 [anne]
MC: CMN said we should use DSSSL instead of CSS
15:31:06 [anne]
[inappropriate questions about CMN here]
15:31:22 [anne]
MS: adjourn
15:31:33 [hsivonen]
CWilso channeled howcome to say 'no'
15:33:58 [smedero]
rssagent, draft minutes
15:34:01 [smedero]
15:34:11 [smedero]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:34:12 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate smedero
15:34:14 [pimpbot]
Title: HTML WG -- 23 Oct 2008 (at
15:34:38 [gsnedders] fwiw!
15:34:39 [pimpbot]
Title: HTTP Vocabulary in RDF (at
15:34:43 [gsnedders]
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marcos, yt?
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