IRC log of egov on 2008-10-23

Timestamps are in UTC.

07:02:16 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-egov-irc
07:02:21 [josema]
zakim, this will be egov
07:02:21 [Zakim]
ok, josema; I see T&S_EGOV()3:00AM scheduled to start 2 minutes ago
07:03:52 [josema]
trackbot, start telcon
07:03:54 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
07:03:56 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be EGOV
07:03:56 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see T&S_EGOV()3:00AM scheduled to start 3 minutes ago
07:03:57 [trackbot]
Meeting: eGovernment Interest Group Teleconference
07:03:57 [trackbot]
Date: 23 October 2008
07:04:28 [josema]
present: john, renke, martin, jeff, amit, benjamin, vagner, oscar
07:05:46 [amit__]
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07:06:34 [josema]
present+ nobuo, helmut
07:07:03 [josema]
topic: welcome and intros
07:07:35 [josema]
[intros]
07:09:24 [Vagner-br]
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07:12:56 [josema]
present+ ?? (Adobe, XML Security)
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07:16:21 [Zakim]
T&S_EGOV()3:00AM has now started
07:16:22 [Zakim]
+Esterel
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07:18:40 [Beng]
John : agenda ok ?
07:18:42 [josema]
scribeNick: Beng
07:19:01 [Beng]
take input from outside work and kick on with use cases at 9H45
07:19:14 [martin]
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07:19:26 [Beng]
the group & jose have had a number of conversations
07:19:38 [Beng]
talk about semic
07:20:14 [Beng]
renke to introduce
07:20:48 [Beng]
martin points out he worked with the previous project
07:21:12 [Beng]
agenda : http://www.w3.org/2007/eGov/IG/wiki/TPAC2008
07:22:14 [csolc]
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07:22:25 [Beng]
slides will be available on wiki (?)
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07:26:08 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'list attendants', josema. Try /msg RRSAgent help
07:26:13 [jeffs]
zakim, who is here?
07:26:13 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Esterel
07:26:14 [Zakim]
On IRC I see OCR, csolc, martin, john, ns, amit, jeffs, Beng, Vagner-br, RRSAgent, Zakim, josema, kjetil, trackbot
07:32:05 [josema]
topic: Input from outiside work
07:32:17 [josema]
s/outiside/outside
07:34:57 [josema]
beng: will the asset be fixed once agreed?
07:35:29 [Rinke]
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07:36:01 [Beng]
Amit : this becomes a fcilitating body, is this your role ?
07:36:04 [josema]
renke: not fixed, the idea is not to change the asset but the connection to the asset from the Member State
07:36:22 [Beng]
Renke : we have another community in ehealth
07:36:35 [Beng]
they just use semic to publish the assets
07:37:06 [Beng]
there is not just hosting, also improve the coaching
07:37:19 [Beng]
martin : have you looked at the mothodology used by xbrl
07:37:37 [Beng]
in particular localization
07:37:46 [Beng]
renken : we use components from un/cefact
07:38:39 [josema]
we had a presentation yesterday about XBRL + SW at the Plenary (potential XG coming?)
07:38:47 [Beng]
semic is not just spread these concepts, the communities have to decide which methodology they want to use
07:39:01 [Beng]
.. and we publish them, and advise them and indicate envisionned problems
07:39:23 [Beng]
john : for ejustice, can you explain the public policy objective this community is trying to achieve
07:40:03 [Beng]
in the ejustice space there are 27 countries. Why do they want to share this information ?
07:40:56 [Beng]
renke : find the names of companies
07:41:33 [Beng]
how can one handle the different semantics each country has to store company data
07:42:23 [Beng]
martin : eservices directive effective end 2009 (?) to have information on any activity related to a municipality, there is only one point of contact where all companies can get information
07:42:46 [Beng]
the gov organisation must know if the company really exists in order to validate giving them information
07:43:18 [Beng]
renke : the solution from ejustice can be reused in another context
07:43:51 [Beng]
... collect assets and modelize them, build relations between concepts and rules
07:44:37 [Beng]
.. also a lot of communication, not just technical.
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07:48:46 [Beng]
martin : explain how europe works for people from other countries
07:49:00 [Beng]
john : generalize out
07:49:13 [Beng]
.. there is a set of ppolicy drivers that want to improve the flow of judicial information
07:49:33 [Beng]
i.e., get a parking ticket in france and have to pay it in UK
07:49:48 [Beng]
... we need information sharing
07:50:03 [Beng]
... problem : standardazing the judicial system is difficult
07:50:15 [Beng]
... other route : achieve the policy outcome without going into massive standardization
07:50:30 [Beng]
jeff : are there legal barriers to exchange information accross borders
07:50:33 [Beng]
all : yes
07:50:54 [Beng]
martin : principle : only do centrally what has to be done centrally
07:51:03 [Beng]
.. respect what is already done at local level
07:51:11 [Beng]
... can only be change on a volontary basis
07:51:22 [josema]
s/principle/subsidiarity principle
07:51:29 [Beng]
... europe can not impose anything locally except if its done everywhere
07:51:52 [Beng]
... semic approach : each of the 27 members states is a black box
07:52:09 [Beng]
Renke : 5200 different sources just in Germany
07:52:37 [Beng]
... impossible to build a standard in all issues
07:52:55 [Beng]
john : this is an instance of goverments solving G2G information via government action
07:53:16 [josema]
Chair: john
07:53:24 [josema]
Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2007/eGov/IG/wiki/TPAC2008
07:53:36 [Beng]
... govs have an objective they are not outsourcing
07:53:54 [Beng]
... need to achieve some sort of degree of information sharing between entities without imposing a degree of standardization
07:54:08 [Beng]
... and finaly need a mechanism for interoperability : in europe this is Semic
07:54:22 [Beng]
Martin : in socia l security
07:54:50 [Beng]
(this was another example)
07:55:30 [Beng]
amit : intereaction between superannuation
07:55:40 [Beng]
(retirement fund)
07:56:01 [Beng]
john : every nation has a different regime in europe
07:56:44 [Beng]
... this is more interoperability than standardization
07:57:06 [Beng]
... q : why chose interoperability over standardization or outsourcing
07:57:34 [Beng]
Oscar : in the long run, if you have common assets, it is easier to achieve internal interoperability and external also
07:57:59 [Beng]
... stick to what can be done in 12/18 months
07:58:28 [Beng]
john : from apoliticy of sociological point of view standardizaion can be viewed as bad
07:59:01 [Beng]
Jeff : how hard to agree on ontologies
07:59:16 [Beng]
martin : difficult
07:59:28 [Beng]
john : tough when there are deep differences
07:59:33 [Beng]
i.e., common law vs civil law
07:59:59 [Beng]
martin : semantic interoperability : common ontology but not an ontology shared by all organizations
08:00:47 [Beng]
renke : maybe having a large ontology is good, but we wanted to start with practical examples
08:01:09 [Beng]
.. there are already problems inside a state
08:01:19 [Beng]
.. italy, germany : problem of the concept of name
08:01:40 [Beng]
... find the solution on specific problems, such as "the name concept"
08:02:04 [Beng]
amit : look at link on IRC
08:02:24 [Beng]
www.agimo.gov.au & www.govdex.gov.au
08:02:43 [Beng]
contact brian stonebridge (?)
08:03:02 [josema]
s/(?)/
08:03:26 [Beng]
john : the specifics lie in the data
08:03:47 [Beng]
... do not model the data, look at "note" fields
08:04:01 [Beng]
.. its easier to construct the ontology after that
08:04:13 [Beng]
... viable approach in a data rich environment such as ours
08:04:26 [josema]
forensics on existing data... interesting
08:04:46 [Beng]
amit : we use SAP and people have found ways of cheating it already
08:05:10 [Beng]
john : as assets are identified and constructed to capture some part of the process that led to their creating
08:05:13 [Beng]
creation
08:05:32 [Beng]
.. was it analysis of the data or of the model
08:06:00 [Beng]
Renke : 2 different views
08:06:07 [Beng]
1) how to solve technical problems
08:06:20 [Beng]
2) look at what we are doing to find a way of improving the process
08:06:30 [Beng]
... I can report in a 3/4 months
08:06:57 [Beng]
martin : see where a bottom up method is useful when creating an ontology
08:07:07 [Beng]
... and find where/when a top down approach is prefered
08:07:14 [Beng]
... make a comparison and make a decision tree
08:07:45 [Beng]
john : interesting discussion
08:08:01 [Beng]
jeff : is there any citizen resistance to information sharing ?
08:08:10 [Beng]
.. and how is this dealt with
08:08:44 [Beng]
renke : maybe noone really knows what is happening
08:08:48 [amit_]
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08:08:56 [Beng]
john : very important in the UK
08:09:06 [Beng]
public trust is low at the moment
08:09:19 [Beng]
due to data loss
08:09:40 [Beng]
problems with companies contracted to resolve the issues
08:09:48 [Beng]
... data is not secure
08:09:58 [Beng]
... 3 reasons to think about sharing information
08:10:14 [Beng]
identified in the UK Wallport/Thomas review
08:10:40 [Beng]
1) requirement from the social sciences community for longitudinal data sets
08:11:02 [Beng]
... vast amount of personnal information, to be used to understand what is happening in your society
08:11:07 [Beng]
... possible to anonymize
08:11:23 [Beng]
2) bring information together to deliver a better service
08:12:11 [Beng]
... a citizen might want the data access level to change during time i.e., just after getting knocked over by a car
08:12:14 [Beng]
3) national security
08:12:22 [Beng]
... consent is no longer needed
08:12:45 [Beng]
... bill going through parliament to keep all emails ever sent
08:13:41 [Beng]
In the web context how can one achieve a degree of data sharing ?
08:13:57 [Beng]
Anonymized data is less problematic.
08:15:25 [josema]
beng: working on PDS, Personal Data Server
08:15:45 [josema]
... secured usb with personal information that gets anonymized
08:15:57 [josema]
... but you need some trust identity
08:16:09 [josema]
... question: is there a way for an individual to retain the info
08:16:22 [josema]
... in order to send it as needed while preserving privacy?
08:16:58 [Beng]
john : use case framework next
08:16:58 [josema]
topic: Use Cases Framework
08:17:19 [Beng]
... how do we address the vast number of issues in the egov space
08:17:34 [Beng]
.. what framework to put forward to look at the use cases ?
08:18:32 [Beng]
... motivation about the simple approach
08:18:50 [Beng]
... governments role on the web : 3 main areas
08:18:59 [Beng]
this seems to be general everywhere
08:19:08 [Beng]
1) using the web as a mechanism for delivering public services
08:19:29 [Beng]
... historically : in the 90's not sure what to do, and little by little more services have been added
08:19:54 [Beng]
... there was no real interaction with the citizen
08:20:08 [Beng]
... the state is simply throwing out services with various levels of success
08:20:25 [Beng]
2) engage with people
08:20:47 [Beng]
... rise of social computing, creation of big communities and patterns of behaviour between these communities
08:20:56 [Beng]
i.e., parenting advice
08:21:35 [Beng]
... if one question is "how to interact with this part of the government service"
08:21:39 [josema]
see also http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-egov-ig/2008Oct/0034
08:21:53 [Beng]
... shouldn't the person responsible of this service also be present in this forum
08:22:21 [Beng]
... design public services, receive comments and improve them
08:22:56 [Beng]
... politician get excited by the management of people's experience of their use of services
08:23:44 [Beng]
... citizen 2 citizen & citizen 2 gov interacction
08:23:57 [Beng]
3) governments sit on a heap of data
08:24:03 [Beng]
... this is a monopoly
08:24:40 [Beng]
... govs can send this information in order to create new services
08:24:56 [Beng]
... question is : what is the role of the state as a "data provider"
08:25:38 [Beng]
amit : this is focused on gov 2 citizen
08:25:53 [Beng]
... this has policy implications that need to be driven top down
08:26:09 [Beng]
... the G2G use cases are also challenging
08:26:27 [Beng]
... interoperability at all levels : city to state, etc
08:27:12 [Beng]
... in AUS, interested in looking at what has happened around the world
08:27:29 [Beng]
vagner : agree with the 3 areas in general but most govs are only in the first area
08:27:41 [Beng]
... few in 2nd area, and 3rd is only a possibility !
08:28:10 [Beng]
... we need to be ahead on technology, so need to find use cases in 2nd and 3rd, maybe even focus on them
08:28:28 [Beng]
john : govs are better at 1 and G2G
08:28:36 [Beng]
amit : disagree
08:28:45 [Beng]
... people are interested but it is not a success
08:28:53 [jeffs]
+1
08:29:11 [Beng]
... most gov departments are hierarchical
08:29:11 [john]
?q
08:29:18 [josema]
q?
08:29:35 [john]
thanks jose
08:30:01 [Beng]
... a lot of innovation needs to happen in order to seen interoperability appear
08:30:09 [Beng]
martin : add to the 1st use case
08:30:22 [Beng]
... there is no real technical obstacle to impementation
08:31:22 [Beng]
... govs want to move forwards, they start at technical point, but to move on to a larger scale project, this creates a conflict betwee, technicians and lawyers
08:31:59 [Beng]
... when making standards mandatory : 1- each aspect of the spec is translated into legal terms
08:32:14 [Beng]
2- say these standards are mandatory and then add them to the law
08:32:30 [Beng]
result : it is clear neither from legal nor technical point of view what needs to be done
08:32:41 [Beng]
proposition : have an intermediate level
08:32:53 [Beng]
divide into technical and non technical issues
08:33:01 [Beng]
creating such a model would be beneficial
08:33:35 [Beng]
john : break
08:33:46 [josema]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
08:33:46 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-egov-minutes.html josema
09:11:09 [josema]
scribeNick: amit_
09:11:30 [amit_]
John: adding government to government as fourth strand
09:11:56 [amit_]
... engage is new, enable is also new, not much activity in these areas in terms of what gov's do right now
09:12:31 [amit_]
... the main focus is develop use cases in these two days, and need to figure out what the use cases will be for
09:12:55 [amit_]
... how detail the use cases need to be? we need to capture successes and failures....
09:13:03 [josema]
scribe+ amit
09:13:46 [amit_]
... how do we capture things that have happen, or new things that few people have implemented?
09:15:00 [josema]
+1 to identify the target audience
09:15:18 [john]
q?
09:15:20 [amit_]
oscar: we need to identify target audience and consumers of information, discuss what we are going to produce as a group and what they are going to use the products (outputs of the group) for....
09:15:37 [amit_]
john: who is the audience?
09:16:10 [jeffs]
q+
09:16:13 [amit_]
... our audience is primarily working in gov and also people who are working in gov projects
09:17:14 [amit_]
... so that they lead the web to its full potential... assume that these people will not be aware of technology knowledge, helping gov people making better decisions about the web...
09:17:35 [amit_]
martin: policy makers, legal expert, political, who are they?
09:18:15 [amit_]
oscar: need to discern between non-tech as well as tech people...
09:18:46 [Rinke]
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09:19:00 [amit_]
john: policy makers (including web policy makers) we should target them...
09:19:20 [josema]
q?
09:19:27 [josema]
ack jef
09:20:18 [amit_]
jeff: there is a second audience, ie citizens,
09:20:39 [amit_]
jeff: we need to focus on citizens being able to check up their own personal data that the gov holds...
09:21:01 [amit_]
jeff: this has long run implications for society...
09:22:18 [amit_]
oscar: need to distinguish between local, regional and national level, and should we have targeted messages for each?
09:22:35 [amit_]
q+
09:22:49 [john]
ack amit_
09:22:50 [amit_]
ack amit
09:23:42 [amit_]
beng: is it about data correction or is it about citizen having impact on gov policy
09:23:46 [amit_]
jeff: both
09:24:06 [amit_]
martin: who owns the information about you? are you or the gov the owner?
09:24:27 [amit_]
oscar: there is also statistical information, eg demographics...
09:24:58 [josema]
zakim, klaus has just arrived in esterel
09:24:58 [Zakim]
+klaus; got it
09:25:25 [amit_]
beng: who owns the data? with a long example that i cant capture
09:26:29 [amit_]
martin: if one has registries and information is being stored, and one needs to use that information, then from the perspective of both gov and citizen, that this information has updated and managed for it's life....
09:26:38 [amit_]
... through technology and process
09:27:51 [amit_]
john: there are many catagories, citizen to gov, gov to citizen, gov to gov, we should try and capture one of each of those in our use cases, hence giving us a broad range of unique problems...
09:28:55 [josema]
s/catagories/categories
09:28:57 [amit_]
martin: there are cases where the gov might be involved or where the community will not be wanted...
09:29:24 [amit_]
john: back to audiences...
09:30:15 [amit_]
... we have different types of audiences, for each of the above areas... do these people interact or are they a long way away?
09:30:46 [amit_]
... there are policy people and practioners in each area... do we focus both?
09:31:31 [josema]
amit: both, in my experience setting up and SDI I had to communicate to both communities
09:32:07 [josema]
s/SDI/Special Data Infrastucture (SDI)
09:32:11 [john]
q?
09:32:37 [josema]
... in Australia we have the Office of the CIO, which has a board where all
09:32:41 [josema]
... gov orgs come and meet
09:32:55 [josema]
... type of authority we should target
09:33:05 [josema]
s/target/target?
09:33:24 [josema]
... then we have AGIMO, sets up technology policy, standards, etc.
09:33:28 [josema]
... also to be considered
09:33:57 [josema]
... Web is majority component, eGov is broader, they do more than Web wrt technology
09:34:30 [josema]
martin: is Web goal or means?
09:34:49 [josema]
... eGov defines more integration of Services than Web alone
09:35:33 [amit_]
oscar: provide case studies to policy makers...
09:36:17 [amit_]
oscar: pick case studies at the technical level, and then provide methods, standards and pro's and cons about standards
09:36:49 [amit_]
... also provide areas where new work in standards is required...
09:37:23 [josema]
now that we discuss about it, I have to remind you of charter scope: "The eGovernment Interest Group (eGov IG) is designed as a forum to support researchers, developers, solution providers, and users of government services that use the Web as the delivery channel.
09:37:53 [josema]
amit: standards "per se" is not enough, how do I make them useful for a given government?
09:38:34 [amit_]
oscar: need information on how to coordinate between standards...
09:38:39 [josema]
s/channel./channel."
09:39:04 [josema]
q+
09:39:14 [john]
ack josema
09:39:20 [amit_]
oscar: we need to highlight scenarios and the use of standards...
09:40:27 [jeffs]
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09:40:29 [amit_]
josema: points to the e-gov standards...
09:41:03 [amit_]
... gov does not list of standard, but they way they should integrate them...
09:41:25 [josema]
s/not/not need a
09:41:33 [josema]
s/standard/standards
09:42:17 [amit_]
oscar: perhaps we can focus our work with a usecase format applied here... and then demonstrate how standards satisfy the usecase and also problems with implementation
09:43:00 [amit_]
martin: what about trying to focus on the migration to WCAG 2?
09:43:58 [amit_]
... it's very difficult to understand why WCAG 2 is the way it is...
09:44:31 [josema]
amit: my opinion as former developer, I only want a superficial knowledge
09:44:42 [josema]
... not why a Group made a specific decision
09:45:35 [amit_]
josema: the idea behind this group is to identify egov specific issues and then coordinate with other W3C groups to improve other outputs...
09:45:42 [amit_]
... eg WCAG 2
09:46:50 [amit_]
rinke: agrees with josema, an example is SEMIC's interest and influence W3C standards via this IG
09:47:38 [amit_]
josema: this is a better process, and something that W3C is geared to do...
09:48:08 [josema]
s/rinke/renke
09:48:45 [jeffs]
q+
09:48:47 [amit_]
john: do we try and construct usecases centric to egov or most digestable to w3c?
09:50:28 [amit_]
josema: we need to focus on egov use cases...
09:51:12 [amit_]
john: which comes back to audiences... egov/web policy makers, practitioners and w3c people
09:51:42 [amit_]
... do we need to complete the loop between all three?
09:51:45 [john]
ack jeffs
09:53:10 [amit_]
jeff: we are talking about process, one way to do this is to minimise discussing thing groups, and focus on what groups things that we should focus on
09:53:30 [amit_]
s/ things/thinks
09:54:43 [amit_]
john: this is helpful, it also means that the use cases that we constructed on our own knowledge and understanding, rather than abstract problems...
09:54:48 [josema]
q?
09:55:39 [amit_]
vagner: concerned about framework, we need to be concerned about what makes this group unique
09:56:20 [amit_]
amit: that brings us to usecases..
09:56:24 [amit_]
oops
09:56:26 [Vagner-br]
list of some relevant observatories in Portuguese http://www.observe.org.br/observegov/Default.aspx?idPagina=6330
09:56:58 [amit_]
oscar: we need to understand the deliverables are and by when they will be required...
09:57:23 [amit_]
... we need as a group to agree on scope
09:58:08 [amit_]
josema: lets focus on developing usecases... some real examples...
09:58:14 [Beng]
http://www.w3.org/2007/eGov/IG/wiki/Use_Cases
09:59:39 [amit_]
... persistence use case... gov publishes, URI's, etc, and then something may get lost due to change in CMS or some tech change
10:00:56 [amit_]
john: in the record of Parliamentary proceeding in the UK, only 50% of the of the questions and answers posed are working... (ie hansard)
10:01:33 [amit_]
... ie the links that document the Q/A of parliament...
10:02:31 [amit_]
... gov and non-gov citations persistency is about the same, ie gov is doing no better...
10:04:10 [amit_]
... in 2005 UK gov tested URL references in hansard, and more failed than worked... so persistence is a problem...
10:07:23 [amit_]
... and rate of citations is increasing, and this happens because, 1. new CMS, 2. structure of gov is not stable ie departments changing url all the time, aggregation and dis-aggregation, at all levels of gov, 3. either a change of minister or political adminsitration.... and political influence to remove and show information....
10:08:58 [amit_]
martin: this is a general usecase applicable to many areas of work...
10:09:35 [john]
q?
10:09:43 [josema]
amit: maybe the focus should be on provenance of information, and persistence
10:10:12 [amit_]
martin: provenance, temporal and persistance of web information from government
10:10:41 [josema]
s/government/government (consistency)
10:11:19 [jeffs]
q+
10:12:01 [OCR]
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10:13:38 [amit_]
john: gov is irritated by the broken link problem... and we have a web archiving tool kit, that can be archived centrally. but we did not know what web sites we had... but even getting access to web sites does not help in understanding who own the web sites... we ramped up the archiving and enabled a push mechanism...
10:15:10 [amit_]
... and we mandated a behaviour, when someone requests a web resource, the user can be served the latest version on the department web site or to the uk gov archive... this was the only way solve the problem centrally...
10:15:41 [amit_]
... allowing gov web people to play fast and loose, and let them do what they needed...
10:16:06 [amit_]
... using 301 was a great idea...ie resource has permanently moved...
10:16:32 [amit_]
... costing UK gov 500,000 Pounds per annum...
10:16:58 [amit_]
... archived on quarterly basis or an important event basis...
10:17:50 [amit_]
... also using sitemaps protocol to improve discovery of information on archive (www.sitemaps.org)
10:17:57 [josema]
ack j
10:18:37 [amit_]
jeff: perhaps we should focus on good practice as well as standards... not just standards...
10:19:21 [amit_]
... using this case study and explain archival practice... in gov...
10:20:31 [amit_]
jeff: people are trying to do a good job, but unable to do this ... due to lack of knowledge...
10:20:53 [amit_]
john: example is accessible web sites...
10:21:29 [amit_]
... people developing new accessible web sites and throwing the old inaccessible one away...
10:22:55 [amit_]
jeff: take the 4 interaction models, gov 2 gov, gov 2 citizen, citizen 2 citizen, citizen to gov
10:23:18 [amit_]
... and develop use cases in these areas
10:24:37 [john]
q?
10:25:22 [amit_]
martin: develop usecases and then approach other W3C working groups for feedback and comment...
10:26:14 [amit_]
john: we need to influence w3c of the realities of gov and how they are continously changing, and not part of the cool URI thinking...
10:27:18 [amit_]
john: we have 4 areas, and articulate simple minded ambitions of gov, this needs to given within the business context and the public policy context...
10:27:42 [amit_]
... and develop usecases and good practice for policy and practioners within gov....
10:27:57 [amit_]
... and on this side influence W3C working groups...
10:28:43 [josema]
amit: good summary
10:31:06 [Beng]
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11:35:13 [josema]
RRSAgent, pointer?
11:35:13 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-egov-irc#T11-35-13
11:36:27 [amit]
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11:39:53 [OCR]
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11:44:04 [josema]
zakim, who's here?
11:44:04 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Esterel
11:44:05 [Zakim]
Esterel has klaus
11:44:06 [Zakim]
On IRC I see OCR, amit, martin, RRSAgent, Zakim, josema, kjetil, trackbot
11:44:46 [josema]
zakim, klaus left esterel
11:44:46 [Zakim]
-klaus; got it
11:51:35 [Rinke]
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BeNg has joined #egov
11:58:02 [josema]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
11:58:02 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-egov-minutes.html josema
12:00:12 [john]
john has joined #eGov
12:03:00 [josema]
[starting after lunch]
12:03:08 [josema]
scribeNick:josema
12:03:23 [josema]
john: recap
12:03:38 [darobin]
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12:03:39 [josema]
... four different areas mentioned before in terms of interactions
12:04:12 [josema]
... and considered our role and interactions with other W3C Groups
12:04:24 [josema]
... in order to identify and pose questions to them to help ground their work
12:04:36 [josema]
... in the reality of eGovernment
12:04:58 [josema]
... how to communicate with government officials and practitioners
12:05:16 [josema]
... if we can identify few cases that could show this, we could succeed
12:05:26 [josema]
... (and make govs save some money)
12:05:43 [josema]
... discussed one particular use case
12:05:59 [josema]
... "cool URIs don't change vs. government does change"
12:06:11 [josema]
... is that a fair reflection?
12:06:40 [josema]
renke: I'd add from SEMIC that some of the projects we have listed there
12:07:01 [josema]
... could help the eGov IG as case studies
12:07:11 [josema]
... helping them to improve their solutions
12:07:25 [josema]
... we are developing a scorecard idea to improve those
12:07:48 [josema]
... we are discussing with several projects to find the best solution
12:08:28 [josema]
... what could help us is a kind of template to describe this
12:08:37 [josema]
... feedback from W3C would be useful in this sense
12:08:58 [josema]
john: some kind of template to capture it?
12:09:18 [josema]
renke: yes
12:09:33 [josema]
john: in this case our role could be to capture your feedback
12:10:07 [josema]
... identify W3C areas that are addressed there and act as a channel to discuss
12:10:16 [josema]
... with the relevant Groups at W3C
12:10:38 [josema]
... then collect that back and document
12:10:52 [josema]
... send back to SEMIC/publish it
12:11:09 [josema]
renke: beyond feedback, give context to other projects
12:11:31 [josema]
... so other states working on similar projects could see
12:12:15 [josema]
... maybe also bring people to W3C to discuss them
12:13:07 [josema]
?? (Nokia): EU very interested in developing this and funding pilot projects
12:13:12 [josema]
... any of you involved?
12:14:23 [josema]
s/??/Lauri Hirvonen
12:15:01 [josema]
... big discussion on eID, eg. you need it to make your tax declaration online
12:15:08 [josema]
... is that within scope?
12:15:22 [josema]
john: don't think we could add much value to that
12:15:30 [josema]
... given our scope and focus
12:15:40 [josema]
martin: I can reverse the question
12:15:51 [josema]
... and there is relationship with what is going on in EU
12:16:15 [josema]
eg. cross-participation, liaisons
12:16:39 [josema]
lauri: several levels of government in Finland, are you take care of all?
12:17:12 [josema]
john: yes, we have no choice, given the diversity the government has
12:18:22 [josema]
[people agree]
12:18:54 [josema]
john: if can make that flow of dialogue happen, that would be good
12:19:02 [josema]
... would it help SEMIC?
12:19:19 [josema]
renke: sounds good to me, I'm happy to go back to IDABC and tell them
12:19:48 [josema]
john: this could be an approach we could bring to other organizations
12:20:18 [martin]
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12:21:06 [josema]
liaisons: http://www.w3.org/2008/02/eGov/ig-charter#coordination
12:21:44 [josema]
and some more at: http://www.w3.org/2001/11/StdLiaison
12:23:51 [josema]
josema: two concerns
12:24:42 [josema]
... other Group's charters and W3C Membership of participants
12:24:43 [josema]
http://www.w3.org/2007/eGov/IG/faq
12:26:46 [josema]
john: I can also share how I justified the business decision
12:27:09 [josema]
ACTION john sheridan to share how he justified the business decision of becoming W3C Members
12:27:09 [trackbot]
Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - john
12:27:09 [trackbot]
Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. jwonderl, jsherida)
12:27:20 [josema]
ACTION johnsherida to share how he justified the business decision of becoming W3C Members
12:27:20 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - johnsherida
12:27:31 [josema]
ACTION jsherida to share how he justified the business decision of becoming W3C Members
12:27:31 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-14 - Share how he justified the business decision of becoming W3C Members [on John Sheridan - due 2008-10-30].
12:29:25 [josema]
josema: very difficult to convince governments because of time commitments issues
12:29:40 [josema]
john: this model mentioned above could be of use
12:29:52 [josema]
... connect initiatives this way
12:30:28 [josema]
john: we need to make progress on the use cases
12:30:35 [josema]
... before adjourning today
12:30:50 [josema]
... I can share some of my work at W3C
12:31:05 [josema]
s/at W3C//
12:31:24 [josema]
[john introduces Show Us a Better Way]
12:31:51 [josema]
->http://www.showusabetterway.co.uk/ Competition Web Site
12:32:05 [Vagner-br]
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12:32:11 [josema]
... 100+ ideas that are very good and need more review
12:32:56 [josema]
s/100/120
12:33:28 [josema]
... two key observations:
12:33:51 [josema]
... only 20 data sets to make these ideas work
12:34:11 [josema]
... huge overlap, in particular: education, health, transport
12:34:35 [josema]
... about how the gov can support the citizen to make a better choice
12:34:55 [josema]
... public housing, best transportation to go from A to B
12:35:52 [josema]
... best place to send kid to school
12:36:16 [martin]
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12:36:20 [josema]
... there's also around performance information to get to a service ??
12:36:58 [josema]
... stroke me the disconnection between the citizen and the information the government produces
12:37:11 [josema]
... if we could surface performance information in a useful way
12:37:27 [josema]
... we can support citizens much better
12:37:55 [josema]
... we can now assure based on the competition that much more people had the same idea
12:38:04 [josema]
... around this topic
12:40:16 [josema]
... a data reuse use case on this topic could be very useful
12:40:30 [josema]
martin: if you use the approach of asking the citizens what they want
12:41:27 [josema]
... similar to what jeffs proposed this morning, then how to present this to the Groups ??
12:41:47 [josema]
... you try to identify sth that is a real problem, using a real problem as an example
12:42:18 [josema]
... you need action to solve it, if you get only academic questions then that's not useful
12:42:49 [josema]
oscar: what is the process of prioritization of services the government puts online?
12:43:11 [josema]
... put up there what is possible, what it seems is useful for citizens, what others have done
12:43:24 [josema]
... but this topic itself is something not usual
12:44:14 [josema]
john: why is easier to pick a restaurant or plan your holidays
12:44:22 [josema]
... than to pick a school for your kids?
12:44:53 [josema]
... if we surface performance data, people will use it in different useful ways
12:45:21 [josema]
... will allow to have a better view of the information
12:46:02 [josema]
... one clear example, two big Web sites on health where people discuss
12:46:20 [josema]
... one run by gov (@@) and one by charity (@@@)
12:49:52 [josema]
... different type of engagement, discussions, and big debate is who is doing better job
12:49:52 [josema]
... some people feel less moderated in a non-gov forum
12:49:59 [josema]
... making the performance available make this services work better, too
12:50:01 [josema]
s/performance/performance information
12:50:52 [josema]
[scribe got disconnected from network]
12:52:38 [john]
q?
12:52:49 [OCR]
yep
12:52:53 [amit_]
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12:53:31 [josema]
RRSAgent, pointer?
12:53:31 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-egov-irc#T12-53-31
12:54:25 [josema]
john: I see many potential benefits
12:55:04 [josema]
... it's all about data reuse
12:55:38 [josema]
... how do you write the business case of having the gov exposing data but not charging for its reuse
12:55:53 [josema]
... even when the benefit is clearly connected to what the government is
12:56:04 [josema]
... this is a big concern to policy makers
12:56:23 [josema]
oscar: what's the cost of not doing so?
12:56:59 [josema]
john: back to the stds point of view
12:57:24 [josema]
... lots of data published already but hidden by proprietary format
12:57:38 [josema]
oscar: example: eurostat in excel format
12:58:25 [josema]
martin: some kind of adapter for relational DBs to expose data on the Web?
12:58:32 [josema]
oscar: DBPedia
12:59:01 [josema]
->http://dbpedia.org/ DBPedia
12:59:19 [josema]
martin: information has been probably lost in the process if that's in Excel format
12:59:32 [john]
for an example see: http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/companywindingupandbankruptcy.htm
12:59:45 [josema]
... how it can be benefitial for govs to present data in a way that is useful for citizens, public servants,
13:00:06 [josema]
... things like statistical data
13:00:34 [josema]
... how do we create a useful environment in which standards can help achieve this goal
13:01:00 [josema]
... probably most out there, needs just to be put together
13:01:35 [josema]
... this could be discussed with specific use cases with other Groups
13:01:52 [josema]
john: that's one example, best example could be something like
13:02:15 [josema]
... school performance data available in proprietary format, not easy to reuse
13:02:29 [josema]
... from W3C side say that open formats is better choice
13:02:53 [josema]
... from govs, if I do so, that will help make my citizens make the choice easier
13:02:57 [Zakim]
+owen
13:03:26 [john]
another example: http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/performancetables/
13:04:59 [Owen]
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13:05:13 [josema]
[john recaps]
13:05:24 [josema]
RRSAgent, pointer?
13:05:24 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-egov-irc#T13-05-24
13:06:03 [josema]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
13:06:03 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-egov-minutes.html josema
13:07:34 [josema]
john: for tomorrow: focus on use cases on one side, good practices on the other and match them
13:07:52 [josema]
... and agree on having some of those written up and done by the Group Members
13:08:19 [josema]
martin: we should settle that we want to be the connector between government organizations and W3C Groups
13:08:36 [josema]
... we act as intermediate, too
13:08:52 [john]
q?
13:09:05 [josema]
oscar: propose to make a list of deliverables and plan
13:09:26 [josema]
... roadmap for the next months and action people
13:09:32 [josema]
[all agree]
13:10:09 [josema]
martin: see if we have enough for the 4 subject areas mentioned today
13:10:23 [josema]
... focus on creating the roadmap to create the deliverables
13:10:39 [josema]
... more important than the details
13:10:58 [josema]
john: we'll start with PLING joint meeting, then work on this as proposed
13:11:43 [josema]
[ALL to think about these areas and prepare for the discussion tomorrow]
13:11:49 [josema]
[ADJOURNED]
13:11:58 [josema]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
13:11:58 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/23-egov-minutes.html josema
13:13:14 [Zakim]
-owen
13:13:17 [Zakim]
-Esterel
13:13:19 [Zakim]
T&S_EGOV()3:00AM has ended
13:13:19 [Zakim]
Attendees were Esterel, klaus, owen
13:19:09 [renkef]
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13:29:52 [josema]
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13:46:43 [amit]
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13:54:09 [johnsheridan]
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14:21:38 [josema]
zakim, bye
14:21:38 [Zakim]
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14:22:00 [josema]
RRSAgent, bye
14:22:00 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items