IRC log of tp on 2008-10-22

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to
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rrsagent, make log public
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06:38:41 [olivier]
good morning everyone. first session due to start at :45
06:38:44 [Ralph]
zakim, this will be tp
06:38:44 [Zakim]
ok, Ralph; I see W3C_TP()2:00AM scheduled to start 38 minutes ago
06:38:58 [Ralph]
rrsagent, please make record member-visible
06:39:06 [Ralph]
Meeting: Technical Plenary
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06:41:53 [raman]
wish they'd color the network differently:-)
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scribe: Steven-scribe
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rrsagent, make minutes
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I have made the request to generate Steven-scribe
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W3C_TP()2:00AM has now started
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zakim, riviera_a is MeetingRoom
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+MeetingRoom; got it
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06:49:27 [Steven-scribe]
06:49:50 [Steven-scribe]
Topic: Opening Keynote: "Cleaning up the Web"
06:49:56 [Steven-scribe]
SteveB: Welcome
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06:50:24 [Steven-scribe]
... this an exciting time in W3C and the Web
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06:50:48 [Steven-scribe]
.... we have lots of great activities, competition
06:50:56 [Steven-scribe]
... we are motivated to find interoperable solutions
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06:51:02 [Steven-scribe]
... there are now 75 groups at W3C
06:51:05 [Steven-scribe]
... the most ever
06:51:13 [Steven-scribe]
... over 1500 people in WGs
06:51:26 [Steven-scribe]
... not including 'public IEs'
06:51:38 [Steven-scribe]
... 35000 people subscribed to mailing lists
06:51:45 [Steven-scribe]
... 40 groups here this week
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... next year in Bay area
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06:52:02 [Steven-scribe]
... now welcome Tim Berners-Lee
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06:52:39 [Steven-scribe]
[Scribe will not scribe talk fully, since slides will be on the web]
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06:54:11 [glazou]
hey, 350 laptops that's too much for Pullman Hotels :-)
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06:56:16 [brutzman]
slide link not found at
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scribe: Steeeven
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[scribe got cut off with power failure]
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06:57:51 [Steeeve1]
tbl: now we have the web, and we realise there are more mantras
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06:58:10 [Steeeve1]
... internet was built on top of telephony, and the web on top of internet
06:58:11 [Zakim]
W3C_TP()2:00AM has ended
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Attendees were MeetingRoom
06:58:26 [Steeeve1]
... every layer should be a layer on top of another
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W3C_TP()2:00AM has now started
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06:58:39 [Ralph]
zakim, riviera_a is MeetingRoom
06:58:39 [Zakim]
+MeetingRoom; got it
06:58:58 [Steeeve1]
... what we learned in web kindergarden is being added by the TAG
06:59:11 [Steeeve1]
... and mantras and aphorisms are being added
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... most of them are SHOULDs
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06:59:43 [Steeeve1]
... tthere are other things we learn
06:59:48 [Steeeve1]
... to listen to people
06:59:48 [Steeeve1]
07:00:06 [Steeeve1]
... the listening you are doing now is passive, and therefore not very good
07:00:07 [jallan_]
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07:00:25 [Steeeve1]
... active listening would involve more interaction until you understood what I meant
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07:00:59 [Steeeve1]
... and a group culture would allow us to work together, but be a barrier for people from the outside
07:01:13 [Steeeve1]
... one of the tensions has been the broken markup that is out there
07:01:15 [Steeeve1]
... broken servers
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07:01:33 [Steeeve1]
... to oversimplify
07:01:57 [Steeeve1]
... some people worry that it isn't optimal for the browsers to fix things up
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07:02:13 [Steeeve1]
... meanwhile the HTML WG points out there is a need to look at broken stuff
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07:02:21 [Steeeve1]
... and browsers compete in this area
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07:02:53 [Steeeve1]
... aphorism here is "specify what goes on the wire, and not what processors do"
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07:03:10 [Steeeve1]
... and "liberal in what you accept, and conservative in what you produce"
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07:03:33 [anne]
Postel's law afaict
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07:03:36 [Steeeve1]
... origianl 3 page HTML spec says ignore unknown tags
07:03:38 [anne]
07:03:39 [Steeeve1]
... to allow for extensible
07:03:49 [Steeeve1]
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07:04:11 [Zakim]
07:04:21 [Steeeve1]
... mail servers didn't get worse because errors got fixed
07:04:27 [Steeeve1]
... but that is different with browsers
07:04:31 [dbaron]
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07:04:50 [Steeeve1]
... people don't fix broken markup for stuff from long ago
07:04:59 [ChrisL]
"race to the bottom"
07:04:59 [Steeeve1]
... casued a race to the bottom in the browser world
07:05:00 [Zakim]
+ +1.857.928.aaaa
07:05:12 [Steeeve1]
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07:05:29 [Ralph]
zakim, aaaa is Ralph
07:05:29 [Zakim]
+Ralph; got it
07:05:31 [Steeeve1]
... the motivating factor for putting stuff on web
07:05:42 [Steeeve1]
... a browser rewards a designer for putting stuff up
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07:06:33 [Steeeven]
... you don't get reward until you've got it exactly right in the non-fixup world
07:06:43 [ted]
remote (_not_ local) attendees are welcome to tune into audio broadcast
07:06:56 [Steeeven]
... validators work by liking you to have everything right
07:07:12 [Steeeven]
... validator will reject you until you gget it all rrright
07:07:38 [Steeeven]
... using a validator, you are only motivated if you want correctness
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07:07:45 [anne]
without a DOCTYPE you get quirks mode, not standards mode :p
07:07:52 [Zakim]
07:07:52 [Steeeven]
... in general using a validator is too hard
07:07:58 [Steeeven]
... a browser is easier to keep happy
07:08:04 [Steeeven]
... can we fix that?
07:08:06 [Zakim]
07:08:12 [Ralph]
zakim, riviera_a is MeetingRoom
07:08:12 [Zakim]
+MeetingRoom; got it
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07:08:25 [Steeeven]
... maybe not with a yes/no, but with a score, and ideas on how to raise the score
07:08:38 [Steeeven]
... 46/100 is your score
07:09:06 [ted]
audio broadcast available provided we consistent electricity...
07:09:09 [Steeeven]
... people tell me that browser manufacturers don't want to give users errors
07:09:20 [Steeeven]
... but suppose the browser knew which was my pages
07:09:24 [Steeeven]
... and only told me of errors there
07:09:34 [ChrisL]
users more likely to be impressed by better functionality from a clean page; an arbitrary score gives them no business benefit
07:09:38 [Steeeven]
... or a simple error symbol, without popup
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07:10:19 [Steeeven]
... view source ought to give advice 'this is the cleaned up version'
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07:10:43 [Steeeven]
... so that adopting others code will always improve the quality
07:10:52 [Steeeven]
07:10:57 [anne]
solving the halting problem might actually be more difficult than rocket science, dunno :)
07:11:10 [Steeeven]
... save as should correct the code too
07:11:15 [Steeeven]
... servers as well
07:11:26 [Steeeven]
... Apache goes out improperly configured
07:11:38 [Steeeven]
... to deliver unknown filetypes as text/plain
07:11:56 [Steeeven]
... this may be my fault from the original CERN server
07:12:16 [Steeeven]
... but server manufacturers, please don't assume a mimetype
07:12:18 [gsnedders]
Is an extension being told?
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07:12:38 [Steeeven]
... have all mimetypes for standard filetypes that we already know about, in W3C recs
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... adding new mimetypes is a major issue for adding new applications on the web
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07:13:46 [Steeeven]
... give a 500 if you don't know the mimetype
07:13:50 [gsnedders]
Can't they just send no content-type header?
07:13:53 [Steeeven]
... so you spot it and can fix it
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07:14:03 [hendry]
mime-support: /etc/mime.types # file a bug on that package in Debian for new mimes and all apps should use them
07:14:05 [Steeeven]
... some people suggest that Apache could tidy what gets served
07:14:06 [marcos]
Roy wants to dump HTTP in the new version of apache, iirc
07:14:12 [Steeeven]
... so why do this?
07:14:33 [Steeeven]
... while the browsers will go on accepting invalid markup
07:14:36 [hsivonen]
gsnedders, Apache could but they don't ATM by default
07:14:39 [arun]
marcos, what do you mean 'dump HTTP'? And who's the Roy that you refer to?
07:14:44 [Steeeven]
... well, we are wading waist deep in these errors
07:14:55 [Steeeven]
... and as things are going in 10 years we will be shoulder deep
07:15:03 [Steeeven]
... so this is not for us but for the future
07:15:11 [ChrisL]
"think of the children"
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07:15:17 [Steeeven]
... we built the web on top of the internet
07:15:17 [marcos]
Arun, roy fielding. He came up with a better alternative to http
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07:15:34 [arun]
Marcos, aaah, Roy Fielding of REST fame.
07:15:42 [Steeeven]
... the interface to sockets hasn't changed
07:15:48 [Steeeven]
.. it is a clean itnerface
07:15:51 [marcos]
Arun, of Apache fame
07:15:54 [marcos]
07:15:55 [Steeeven]
http is a layer on that
07:16:07 [Steeeven]
... the web is a function that takes a URI and delivers content/meaning
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07:16:21 [arun]
Marcos, well, and HTTP too for that matter
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07:16:34 [marcos]
Waka, yes
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07:17:22 [Steeeven]
tbl: If we can work towards a future where people produce clean pages
07:17:29 [Steeeven]
... it will make the future web easier to use
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07:17:50 [Steeeven]
... it is about being simple, realising that the future is longer than the past
07:17:56 [marcos]
This is silly, there is little correlation between markup and DOM. Create a clean DOM, forget about clean markup.
07:17:57 [Steeeven]
... 15 years of legacy pages will be as nothing soon
07:18:12 [gsnedders]
15 years ago? I was only just one year old then!
07:18:25 [gsnedders]
I don't remember 15 years ago!
07:18:28 [arun]
LOL gsnedders
07:18:41 [Steeeven]
... we are celbrating 20 years of the first memo about the web in March
07:19:01 [Steeeven]
... that doesn't seem long ago, but some of you weren't even born then
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07:19:50 [Steeeven]
... people say "I understand that there is incredible talent in producing the HTML spec more modular" and several have some up in the last few days
07:19:52 [Steeeven]
to volunteer
07:19:55 [Steeeven]
... thanks!
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07:20:48 [Steeeven]
... so question - should we, can we, clean up the web?
07:21:04 [Steeeven]
... thanks for listiening
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steveB: questions, then panel
07:21:23 [Steeeven]
... please be brief
07:21:36 [Steeeven]
Ian: Ian Hickson
07:21:37 [IanJ]
[Ian Hickson, google]
07:21:49 [Steeeven]
... a lot of what Tim asks for, such as save as is already there
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07:21:58 [Steeeven]
... CSS errors, some HTML errors
07:22:04 [Steeeven]
Tim: By default?
07:22:07 [Steeeven]
Ian: Yes
07:22:14 [Steeeven]
Tim: I want to see that
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Ann: Anne Bassetti, Boeing
07:22:31 [Steeeven]
... where are the slides?
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07:22:57 [Steeeven]
Tim: The notes I used I will post
07:23:05 [marie]
many thanks Steven!!
07:23:06 [glazou]
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07:23:20 [Steeeven]
Topic: Web Architecture, Blueprint or Recipe
07:23:20 [karl]
scribenick: karl
07:23:22 [glazou]
can we please have more light on stage ?
07:23:30 [gsnedders]
07:23:31 [marie]
07:23:32 [karl]
Topic: Web Architecture, Blueprint or Recipe
07:23:38 [Steeeven]
SteveB: Thanks to Chris Lilley for putting together the program
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07:24:19 [Rotan]
Search for "score at the end of validation" at
07:24:34 [karl]
chris introducing the topic
07:24:37 [Steeeven]
ChrisL: Why this panel?
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07:25:04 [Rotan]
The idea of giving feedback for the quality of Web pages, as a byproduct of validation has been thought of many times before. I remembered suggesting this 4 years ago.
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07:25:22 [karl]
ChrisL: There is a lot of discussions around Web architecture.
07:25:42 [karl]
... It doesn't impose many many things, it encourage to do things.
07:25:50 [Steeeven]
rrsagent, make minutes
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I have made the request to generate Steeeven
07:26:08 [karl]
... Where are we today? What needs to be done today?
07:26:17 [IanJ]
Architecture of the World Wide Web, Volume One ->
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07:26:34 [karl]
... I invite each speakers to introduce and speak about the topic. The goal is to have a discussion more than a presentation.
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07:27:09 [karl]
anne: working for Opera Software, involved in HTML 5, there are some clashes with Web architecture.
07:27:49 [karl]
hsivonen: consulting for Mozilla, I see the Web as the public Web that people can access. The resources you can navigate publicly.
07:28:00 [IanJ]
Henri: I define Web as the information space accessible to the public via a browser.
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07:28:18 [karl]
... If a mobile operator operates behind walls, this is not part of the web
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07:28:48 [karl]
... If you use Web service on http but not using the Web browser. I don't see it as part of the web
07:28:56 [karl]
... same for Semantic Web
07:29:13 [karl]
... Web Architecture are not principles for the browsable web
07:29:15 [MikeSmith]
"the browsable Web"
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07:30:02 [karl]
normanw: I gave a second look at the Web architecture document.
07:30:10 [MikeSmith]
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07:30:36 [karl]
... I still stand behind the document. many of the principles are SHOULd
07:30:50 [karl]
... because tehre might be good reasons to do in other ways
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07:31:28 [karl]
LarryM: I'm not part of the TAG, but was on the AB when the TAG was going on.
07:31:28 [IanJ]
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07:31:41 [DanC_lap]
s/going on/being chartered/
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07:32:10 [karl]
... Part of my observations
07:32:11 [Zakim]
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07:32:48 [karl]
... what's different between the Web of Today, and the Web Circa 1996
07:32:53 [karl]
... the Web has really changed
07:33:02 [Zakim]
07:33:04 [karl]
... and what people think about the Web has changed
07:33:19 [karl]
... The W3C has not been leading but going off in another direction.
07:33:28 [karl]
... some corrections are necessary.
07:33:35 [karl]
... in 1996 it was about documents
07:33:45 [Zakim]
+ +87713aabb
07:33:54 [karl]
... but now there are plenty of applications with ajax, video, etc.
07:34:06 [karl]
... in 1996 it was mostly done by hand.
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07:34:23 [karl]
... but most content produced now is through cms, wiki, blogs, etc.
07:34:28 [karl]
... in database
07:34:53 [karl]
... the Web 96 is about publishing information
07:35:05 [karl]
... the web today is about interaction, social network
07:35:13 [JR]
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07:35:28 [karl]
... There are hundreds of organizations developing standards, specifications now
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07:36:03 [karl]
... the focus of w3c on xml, semantic web, web services, and narrow indutries, It doesn't seem to match what the Web is
07:36:48 [IanJ]
Larry: Quote from B. Disraeli "I'm their leader, so I must follow them."
07:37:09 [karl]
... The focus of Working groups are not really about leading the web
07:37:25 [tlr]
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07:37:34 [karl]
... Instant messenging, video conference, etc. because people put these things on the web too
07:37:44 [Steeeven]
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07:37:53 [karl]
... If you call for more resources, you would have to drop some of the activities
07:37:59 [adrianba]
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07:38:07 [karl]
... would it be very damaging if some of the things were dropped
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07:38:37 [IanJ]
Noah (IBM)
07:38:41 [karl]
noah: I'm Noah mendelsson (ibm) working on the tag
07:38:43 [olivier]
[ for those not in mandelieu, note there is an audio broadcast available: ]
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07:39:09 [karl]
... what is the importance of doing such work on architecture?
07:39:11 [glazou]
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07:39:20 [karl]
... 2. is the tag effective doing that?
07:39:29 [andrew]
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07:39:31 [olivier]
[for those in mandelieu, please listen to the live voice and don't torture our bandwidth any further, thank you]
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07:39:44 [karl]
... It is important for the World wide Web to have longterm architecture.
07:39:51 [karl]
... I have worked for Lotus
07:40:15 [karl]
... and there are a lot of constraints when you deal with millions of users and deployment.
07:40:25 [Kai]
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07:40:33 [karl]
... I have a lot of sympathy for html 5 people. It is not trivial.
07:40:54 [karl]
... The web has a lot of importance in a long term.
07:41:02 [IanJ]
Noah: Few of us would fly in a plane built by a group with mantra "ship early and ship often."
07:41:13 [vivien]
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07:41:29 [karl]
... It's easy to say I know my users, get out of my way.
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07:41:35 [IanJ]
Noah: Kludges compound./
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07:41:44 [karl]
... but how does it work on a long term.
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07:42:26 [IanJ]
Noah: Kludges have a long life; people in HTML 5 WG could be doing more interesting things if architecture had not been violated by kludges years ago.
07:42:31 [karl]
... We have some stress between the TAG and some groups. Kludges have a long life. The compromises affect very often the people who made the compromise
07:42:56 [kbals]
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07:42:57 [Zakim]
- +87713aabb
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07:43:27 [karl]
... The role of the TAG is to make sure that all concerns of the community
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07:43:36 [karl]
... are represented.
07:43:46 [karl]
... I don't share henri's sivonen view
07:43:59 [karl]
... We can't just make decisions for small commmunity.
07:44:05 [karl]
we have to include everyone
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07:44:13 [IanJ]
Noah on content sniffing: If I want to publish an XML fragment as plain text (e.g., as part of a bug database), if browsers do content sniffing (by default, automatically), then I can't do that anymore.
07:44:50 [karl]
... [sharing a mistake GET/POST in a development]
07:45:01 [karl]
... I was able to point to the TAG doc
07:45:07 [karl]
... to give the right thing to do
07:45:25 [karl]
ChrisL: How many people have looked at the architecture document
07:45:43 [karl]
... How many people have looked at the TAG findings
07:46:00 [karl]
... How many people disagree with the TAG document
07:46:06 [IanJ]
Noah was referring to: "URIs, Addressability, and the use of HTTP GET and POST
07:46:06 [IanJ]
07:46:21 [IanJ]
ChrisL: How many people have told the tag they disagree?
07:46:38 [Norm]
From here it was about 50/50 on whether anyone had read the architecture document or a TAG finding.
07:46:39 [kbals]
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07:46:52 [karl]
ChrisL: How the Web content is edited with regards to you.
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07:46:53 [DanC_lap]
polls: how many have read the arch doc? (most? 2/3rds?) how many have read a finding (half?) how many have found something they disagree with? (20ish) how many told the TAG? (19ish)
07:47:10 [Rotan]
[many hands raised for the above questions. was not in a position to assess the percentages.]
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07:47:17 [karl]
hsivonen: there are 4 browsers.
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07:47:29 [IanJ]
s/4 browsers/4 top browsers
07:47:36 [karl]
... at a given point in time, the interoperable platform
07:47:39 [arun]
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07:47:57 [karl]
... The web is what implements this interoperable platform
07:48:04 [maxf]
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07:48:07 [IanJ]
henry: The platform is expanding. The more of the browsers that implement a feature, the more it becomes part of the platform.
07:48:20 [karl]
larryM: I object to caracterize the Web by only the 4 top browsers
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07:48:33 [IanJ]
larryM: (e.g., browsers in internet cafes in Africa)
07:48:41 [Steeeven]
07:48:46 [karl]
... in Africa, in a cafe, you will find different version of the products, lot older and it is part of the web
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07:49:04 [karl]
timbl: We have discussions about the scope of the Web
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07:49:08 [karl]
... on the TAG
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07:49:14 [JonathanJ]
rrsagent, draft minutes
07:49:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate JonathanJ
07:49:25 [karl]
... the TAG was created because WGs asked for it
07:49:30 [timbl]
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07:49:32 [karl]
... It was a service community
07:49:39 [mamol]
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07:50:00 [karl]
... initially, a lot of questions were back logs questions
07:50:15 [dsr]
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07:50:19 [karl]
... the tag has been doing writing on the things which are in between the specs
07:50:25 [raman]
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07:50:28 [karl]
... and were not really defined somewhere
07:50:37 [unl_]
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07:50:49 [karl]
... The TAG also tried to connect groups together when they had conflicting reqs
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07:51:21 [raman]
TimBL Should be asked the question "Define the Web" he did not answer it
07:51:28 [karl]
Noah: The value of one large network is greater of the value of two small networks
07:51:35 [ChrisL]
07:52:04 [karl]
... if everybody ignores the GET/POST, we would not be able to write crawlers anymore
07:52:14 [karl]
... We can call Web whatever we want
07:52:25 [karl]
... but we should look at use cases
07:52:50 [JonathanJ]
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07:53:00 [IanJ]
Web arch definition of Web: "The World Wide Web (WWW, or simply Web) is an information space in which the items of interest, referred to as resources, are identified by global identifiers called Uniform Resource Identifiers (URI)."
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07:53:56 [karl]
arun_: I perfectly accept that the Web is larger than the browsable web
07:54:06 [karl]
... we find in the real world
07:54:41 [Rotan]
Many of the "mobile" people treat the URI as an identifier with which one can obtain a *representation* of an underlying resource. Many people gloss over this "representation" idea.
07:54:55 [IanJ]
arun_: I am willing to accept the proposition that the web is larger than what browsers render.
07:54:55 [karl]
... A lot of the popular APIs use indeed GET, that do not block of developing crawlers. That is not a good point.
07:55:00 [IanJ]
arun_: I agree with Noah's point about GET/POST, but a lot of popular APIs use GET for state-modifying operations. I don't agree with NOah's example of crawlers (those URIs are cordoned off). ...
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07:55:38 [karl]
... we can't change the system
07:55:47 [IanJ]
arun_: the arch doc provides good counsel, but when people build, e.g., bad APIs, you still have to deal with it.
07:55:51 [karl]
.... you have to build the system in a way where you adjust
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07:56:33 [karl]
s/the system in a way where you adjust/ in a way where you adjust to the system/
07:56:42 [IanJ]
arun: I think that some of the panelists have conceded certain incompatibilities; I'd like more reconciliation.
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07:57:06 [karl]
noah: some of the arch documents can be mutable other time
07:57:14 [IanJ]
Noah: One of the rules the arch doc can serve is as a guide of issues to raise before the community over time
07:57:20 [karl]
... If you are using GET the normal go for it
07:57:32 [karl]
... if you have a good reason to modify something
07:57:37 [karl]
... then ask for a change
07:57:52 [karl]
Larry: The architecture document is not an implementation guide
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07:57:59 [IanJ]
larry masinter: the arch doc is not an implementation guide. A standard is not a description of the real world.
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07:58:21 [karl]
... You have to deal with indeed broken implementations, but that does not mean you should do an architecture which is broken
07:58:51 [karl]
... Architecture guidelines depend on the things which evolve in time
07:58:56 [IanJ]
larry: The standard describes what should be. I think it is a fallacy that the standard also include the implementation guidelines; implementation advice changes over time.
07:59:08 [IanJ]
larry: the URI standard does not have a limit on URI length; but every implementation has a limit.
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07:59:20 [IanJ]
larry: The implementations change over time; the standard needs to be stable.
08:00:14 [Rotan]
Sniffing to work around bugs is just one reason for sniffing, and something we wish we didn't have to do. But still want to sniff the context, to adapt to its particular needs.
08:00:19 [IanJ]
larry: There was a separation between content, protocol, and reference.
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08:00:26 [IanJ]
larry: HTTP not tied to HTML, or vice versa
08:00:26 [Jean-Gui]
08:00:46 [IanJ]
larry: so if html were broken, maybe we could have a different type; the protocol allows that.
08:00:54 [IanJ]
anne: that's still true
08:01:07 [IanJ]
larry: but it seems like every feature we want needs to go into html5, the only content type
08:01:11 [IanJ]
chris: that's not entirely true.
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08:01:20 [IanJ]
chris: Lots of people read html in email clients, for example
08:01:58 [Kai]
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08:02:07 [IanJ]
larry: we are breaking orthogonality (and making an architectural mistake) if we focus on one type of user agent.
08:02:11 [IanJ]
anne: I don't think this is happening.
08:02:25 [IanJ]
anne: There are different "classes of products" (a term used in the QA Framework)
08:02:35 [dbaron]
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08:02:47 [IanJ]
larry: does anybody here work for or with a mail user agent that interprets HTML.
08:02:54 [IanJ]
(A number of hands go up)
08:02:58 [IanJ]
Anne: I do.
08:03:31 [karl]
hsivonen: on the topic of violating architecture. it doesn't really matter if any groups claim authority
08:03:37 [Schorsch]
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08:03:47 [karl]
... this WG doesn't have the power to make people stop doing wrong things
08:04:02 [IanJ]
hsivonen: emailing to the tag and discussing right/wrong doesn't help. People still do things.
08:04:13 [karl]
... people out there are still doing mistakes and you have to deal with that
08:04:37 [amy]
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08:04:40 [IanJ]
ChrisL: Not a question of authority...web arch says "if you do X, there are consequences." The consequences don't go away if people don't follow the advice; they multiple.
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08:05:26 [IanJ]
ChrisL: Mechanism to stop transmission of state also stops other uses (e.g., can't share URIs with session id info in them).
08:05:37 [karl]
hsivonen: the purpose of standards is to document what needs to be implemented
08:05:44 [karl]
... so there will be interoperability
08:05:44 [IanJ]
...based on what is already out there.
08:05:51 [karl]
... if there are n browsers
08:06:14 [karl]
... the standards should give guidance so that the n+1 browser can implement real world use case
08:06:22 [IanJ]
hsivonen: little point in writing a science fiction document that, if implemented, creates a piece of software that doesn't work.k
08:06:25 [karl]
... no point writing Science Fiction document
08:06:26 [IanJ]
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08:06:41 [IanJ]
hsivonen: standards show lower cost of implementation.
08:06:45 [IanJ]
08:06:52 [JonathanJ]
rrsagent, draft minutes
08:06:52 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate JonathanJ
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08:07:19 [marie]
(more than 3, ivan)
08:07:30 [IanJ]
Noah: We should have discussions (like role of text/plain) within the entire community.
08:07:44 [IanJ]
TBL: A protocol _is_ science fiction.
08:08:01 [ChrisL]
I see raman frst on the q then three folk on the other side at the mike
08:08:05 [IanJ]
TBL: You define a protocol so that nodes on the net can talk to each other (e.g., give me articles in a newsgroup).
08:08:18 [renato]
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08:08:24 [Steeeven]
08:08:24 [IanJ]
TBL: When you define the protocol, you define the sets of states that the nodes can go through, and the messages, and you go through some math.
08:08:45 [IanJ]
(TBL goes on about usenet protocol)
08:09:21 [IanJ]
TBL: The point I'm making about protocol design is that it gives a set of rules, and it says "If you implement the rules, you get some properties." That's what a protocol does. IF you do X, THEN you get Y properties.
08:09:33 [IanJ]
s/protocol does/protocol specification does/
08:09:55 [IanJ]
TBL: You put forward your spec and say "does anybody want to play in this?"
08:10:22 [IanJ]
TBL: People put out protocols, and by "joining the club," you helped the system achieve the desired goals.
08:10:24 [IanJ]
TBL: That works.
08:10:39 [IanJ]
TBL: Now on the web we have a lot of legacy data, and it's valuable to document that.
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08:10:57 [IanJ]
TBL: But we need to be careful about not losing the vision of protocol specification.
08:11:30 [IanJ]
TBL: Someone who shall remain nameless repeats Wittgenstein's statement "Meaning is use."
08:11:41 [IanJ]
TBL: But that's not the case with protocol....the protocol makes it fact.
08:12:51 [IanJ]
TBL: We should acknowledge that we shoud look back, but we should NOT define spec writing as descriptive. Spec writing is prescriptive. If people don't follow the protcol in the future, we have the right to go after them and say "Excuse me, you joined the club and are expected to follow the rules."
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08:14:08 [IanJ]
Raman (Google): There was a point in this conversation when we were talking about the definition of the Web.
08:14:22 [IanJ]
Raman: Henri's characterization explains his reasoning.
08:14:31 [IanJ]
Raman: Larry said the web was more than what top browsers do.
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08:14:43 [IanJ]
Raman: Arun gave some slack about that it might be more than what browsers do.
08:15:07 [IanJ]
Raman: Tim, can you say clearly what you think the Web is.
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08:15:30 [IanJ]
TBL: I did both. We have to acknowledge the past, but we are, very importantly, designing for the future. We are designing, not documenting.
08:16:05 [IanJ]
TBL: Web is "humanity connected by technology" (the broader definition)
08:16:15 [IanJ]
TBL: Narrow definition: The function map, of URIs to meaning.
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08:17:07 [IanJ]
s/ Wittgenstein's statement/[a statement from Wittgenstein]
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08:17:49 [IanJ]
Larry: I am more interested in what W3C should do operationally than a principled definition of the Web; and I think W3C should do more than just what browsers do.
08:18:11 [IanJ]
Larry: I prefer "humanity connected by technology, but with a focus on what has traditionally been the Web."
08:19:00 [IanJ]
David Baron (Mozilla): I wanted to make a few points about how much the specs need to talk about what's actually out there.
08:19:08 [Zakim]
08:19:17 [IanJ]
dbaron: Browser vendors need this to keep cost of entry to enter and stay in the browser market as feasible.
08:19:30 [Zakim]
08:19:34 [karl]
... we can't work by ourselves
08:19:38 [IanJ]
...there is so much reverse engineering to do, we can't do it alone. We need to pool our efforts in a standards body.
08:19:43 [karl]
... we need to join and share our resources.
08:19:57 [IanJ]
dbaron: I hope W3C is a forum for that type of standardization.
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08:20:27 [IanJ]
Norm: I think that it's a healthy tension between real world/ world as we'd like it to be.
08:20:42 [IanJ]
Ann: Old browsers are not just used in Africa; they are used in big companies, too.
08:21:02 [IanJ]
Ann: We are stuck with old browsers since apps were written that depend on those browsers.
08:21:18 [IanJ]
Ann: Three pieces of the pie: those who are defining architecture, those who are using the architecture.
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08:22:08 [IanJ]
Ann: Interop is much more important than the next "whizz-bang" thing; we won't get there for a while.
08:22:32 [IanJ]
Noah: Some of my best successes in using webarch is in discussions with people in my company.
08:22:48 [IanJ]
Noah: In many cases, I've found these findings, etc. of great value in talking with implementers.
08:22:53 [IanJ]
(and not just spec writers)
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08:23:11 [IanJ]
Ann: Has TAG written a "top 10 things to do"? That might be helpful.
08:23:22 [dbaron]
For what it's worth, a lot of the reverse engineering I referred to is *about* improving interoperability.
08:23:22 [IanJ]
Murray Maloney (unaffiliated)
08:24:07 [karl]
Murray: The web is a gift
08:24:18 [IanJ]
MM: Among the things I learned in kindergarten is "polity." The Web is a gift. It's a paradigm-shifting change. The world has changed as a result in 20 years. We should be happy about contributing to that and making the world a better place.
08:25:50 [IanJ]
MM: I'm a survivor of an airplane crash. 50 people died in the crash, in 1982. Sometimes we don't need to rationalize too the browser vendors, or to the people in the higher echelons of the HTML WG why we need something.
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08:26:04 [IanJ] if Boeing says "we need something" you should listen to them.
08:26:10 [IanJ]'s really important that their systems work.
08:26:21 [IanJ]'s really important that I can get to my bank account using my windows box.
08:26:24 [IanJ]
...but the web is broken.
08:26:33 [IanJ]
...there's one Web, and _I_ am a Web browser.
08:26:44 [IanJ]
...I've been reading markup since the 80s
08:26:52 [IanJ]
...and I can see in my head how it should look with a style sheet.
08:27:04 [IanJ]
...your browsers make it convenient for me, but it's not YOUR Web. It's everyone's Web.
08:27:27 [IanJ]'s the Web of the people in Africa, or South America, or any place with a slow network that can't deal with loads of javascript.
08:27:33 [IanJ]
...please just make the damn thing work.
08:27:43 [IanJ]
Anne: I'd say that we are in violent agreement here.
08:27:58 [IanJ]
Anne: Part of the HTML 5 effort started in 2004 due to huge lack of interop among browsers.
08:28:20 [IanJ]
...we want to improve interop by defining a common way of interpreting what's out there.
08:28:31 [IanJ]
...this would solve some of the problems Boeing, and you, are facing.
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08:28:42 [IanJ]
Murray: My impression is that most of the browsers are doing lots of things wrong./
08:28:57 [IanJ]
Murray: I may have this wrong, but what HTML 5 seems to be doing, is codifying errors.
08:29:18 [IanJ]
hsivonen: If you are restricted to running IE6, then shouldn't we be doing just that in order to interoperate with your browsers?
08:29:20 [IanJ]
[some applause]
08:29:43 [JonathanJ]
rrsagent, draft minutes
08:29:43 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate JonathanJ
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08:30:02 [IanJ]
Larry: If you are going to document the past, write down how to write HTML that works ok in IE6. Help the millions of people who write HTML.
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08:30:57 [IanJ]
TBL: When you define a protocol, you define the rules for each side: how to make a server work, and how to make a browser work. What you do is write the rules (perhaps in separate docs) and you demonstrate that stuff will work. I like specs where you can define things mathematically.
08:31:25 [renato]
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08:31:34 [IanJ]
TBL: The HTML 5 is particularly targeted at browser vendors, and I know that there has been a cry for a version (e.g., generated) targeting authors.
08:31:46 [IanJ]
...good point that there are a lot more of those [authors].
08:31:57 [IanJ]
...and I've heard movement in that direction to make HTML 5 two specs.
08:32:07 [IanJ]
...let's ensure that when you put the two specs together, the system works.
08:32:17 [karl]
IanJ, BIG BIG thanks for taking over the scribing
08:32:21 [IanJ]
SteveB: Thank you, panel. Let's continue the dialog at W3C, this week in hallways.
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08:33:28 [DanC_lap]
+1 Karl. amazing to watch Ian decode TimBL in real-time.
08:33:42 [koalie]
+1, amazing (ian, is)
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08:42:01 [amy]
we'd like to ask people to fill out a questionnaire on TP2009 - whether they'd likely be able to attend, stay at the hotel, and if charging a fee would be workable
08:42:57 [smedero]
hrm: "You're not allowed to see this questionnaire."
08:43:04 [smedero]
member only?
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08:44:09 [amy]
anyone w member access should be able to answer it
08:44:20 [smedero]
ahh, thanks amy.
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08:50:26 [mth]
zakim, ??p1 is markh
08:50:26 [Zakim]
+markh; got it
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scribe: jeanne2
08:53:09 [jeanne2]
SB: Welcome back
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08:53:48 [jeanne2]
SLH:Doing a demo session with a BOF session at lunch
08:54:05 [jeanne2]
ARIA stands for Accessible Rich Internet Applications
08:54:21 [Norm]
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08:54:38 [jeanne2]
it works with AJAX and other technologies to provide information on name, role and state to assistive technologies
08:55:25 [jeanne2]
Assistive technologies help people with disabilities use the web.
08:55:29 [JonathanJ]
rrsagent, draft minutes
08:55:29 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate JonathanJ
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08:56:01 [jeanne2]
SF: Steve Faulker, showing JAWS (a popular screen reader) with a slider control.
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08:56:29 [jeanne2]
[JAWS speaking]
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08:57:18 [jeanne2]
With non-ARIA slider, the listener is told that they are interacting with a button by pressing it. You can't press a button, you have to move it horizontally with a mouse.
08:57:40 [jeanne2]
[demo of a ARIA Slider control with JAWS]
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08:58:21 [jeanne2]
SF: JAWS announces the name of the control, directions to use it, and the values as it is moved.
08:58:34 [jeanne2]
SF: Example of a Tab Pane
08:58:50 [jeanne2]
[demo of non-ARIA tab with JAWS]
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08:59:27 [jeanne2]
SF: Without ARIA, the assistive technology doesn't know that the tab has focus.
09:00:25 [jeanne2]
[demo with ARIA]
09:00:59 [jeanne2]
SF: Example of a tree navigation control
09:01:12 [jeanne2]
[demo without and with ARIA]
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09:01:54 [jeanne2]
SF: It is using attributes mapped to the API which is picked up by the AT and JAWS understands that the widget has a role and communicates the state.
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09:03:01 [jeanne2]
SLH: There will be a BOF table at lunch where you can ask questions. Work on WAI-ARIA is done by the Protocols and Formats Working Group.
09:03:09 [ivan]
scribenick: ivan
09:03:13 [marie]
merci Jeanne!
09:03:15 [ivan]
scribe: ivan
09:03:16 [JonathanJ]
rrsagent, draft minutes
09:03:16 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate JonathanJ
09:03:28 [ivan]
Topic: effects of CMS on the Web
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09:03:51 [ivan]
shawn: cms systems represent a difference in the authoring practices of the past
09:03:54 [ivan]
... most cms systems spit out dirty code
09:03:55 [alexmilowski]
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09:04:34 [ivan]
... this session: how development of cms systems impact what we do here, the future, authoring guidelines, browsers, etc
09:06:15 [gsnedders_]
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09:06:43 [ivan]
jose alonso (alias josema): work at ctic in spain, fellow at w3c for egov work
09:07:03 [ivan]
... today i wear my institute's hat
09:07:05 [ivan]
... i will show you brief statistics on practice
09:07:15 [ivan]
... as i work on egov, the examples come from there mainly
09:07:20 [Jean-Gui]
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09:07:42 [ivan]
... i ran some tools we have at the isntitute checking and describing sites of european governments
09:08:07 [steve]
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09:08:15 [ivan]
... sample: common portals of europe
09:08:44 [Laura]
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09:08:56 [ivan]
... most of the tools are very spread, custom developments, general cms systems
09:09:06 [ivan]
... it is a spread market
09:09:19 [timbl]
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09:09:20 [ivan]
... in terms of code, it is better than expected
09:09:30 [ivan]
... validity of code is low, but better than, say, opera study
09:09:59 [hlee7]
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09:10:11 [ivan]
... we found a lot of different attributes that we did not know yet :-0
09:10:17 [ivan]
... some rss streams getting into the html content:-)
09:10:17 [ivan]
... we ran automatic tests on accessibility
09:10:30 [timbl_]
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09:10:36 [ivan]
... these are only automatic tests, very low level of accessibility
09:10:53 [ivan]
... it is improving but if you go to AA (standard in Europe), most of the pages fail
09:11:11 [ivan]
... in terms of forms, they are doing better
09:11:54 [ivan]
... there is an improvement in code, lots more to be done in design
09:12:07 [adrianba]
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09:12:38 [ivan]
... repeating title is a typical case
09:12:38 [ivan]
only 20% use headings correctly
09:12:39 [ivan]
.... mobile o.k. tests were run
09:12:54 [ivan]
... we issue requests with the w3c user agent, no web site responded the way we expected
09:13:09 [ivan]
This has lots to do with the issue on the previous session
09:13:15 [ivan]
... we think we have to fix this
09:13:29 [raphael]
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09:13:47 [ivan]
... the web site managers the earlier they are trained on cms tools the better code they can produce
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09:14:45 [ivan]
Kai Scheppe, Deutche Telecom: DT consists of a variety of companies (T mobile, T online is now product and innovation)
09:14:51 [ivan]
... an overview of 'our world'
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09:15:49 [ivan]
... one thing a cms system gives you is to propagate changes quickly, simultaneous work, versioning, creation of webn contents for non professionals
09:15:51 [DanC_lap]
09:16:05 [ivan]
... we have a template based mechanism
09:16:06 [ivan]
... you can quickly create a large number of sites
09:16:11 [ivan]
... cms is not an HTML editor
09:16:19 [josema]
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09:16:25 [ivan]
... it is a template mechanism for mass production
09:16:39 [ivan]
... we integrate content from the outside of the system, which can be challenging
09:17:01 [ivan]
... we trade flexibility
09:17:01 [ivan]
... maintaining a large system is another challenge
09:17:04 [josema]
josema's slides:
09:17:12 [josema]
09:17:26 [matt]
josema, can you try to get the presenters to use a larger font?
09:17:53 [matt]
s/josema, can you try to get the presenters to use a larger font?//
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09:18:59 [ivan]
(scribe refers to Kai's slide instead of copying them:-)
09:19:58 [ivan]
Kai: time to market often takes precedence
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09:20:12 [ivan]
... editors are not programmers
09:20:34 [ivan]
... automatioin is fine but editorial process should not be interrupted
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09:21:35 [ivan]
LarryM, Adobe: I was invited because i come from adobe...
09:22:04 [ivan]
.... the web today is not authored by hand (mainly) but it goes through systems that generate content from content that comes from other places
09:22:23 [ivan]
... it is a great point of leverage, though it is difficult to get the word inot that community
09:23:03 [ivan]
josh o'connor:
09:24:12 [ivan]
cms are tools that allow to manage complexity for a site
09:24:34 [ivan]
... what is wrong? they can be complex and badly designed
09:24:59 [ivan]
... often inaccessible back end, so they cannot be used by people using assistive techologies
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09:25:21 [ivan]
... quality wrong is sloppy, usability and accessibility is often poor
09:25:38 [ivan]
... lack of interaction with users particularly with people with disabilities
09:25:58 [ivan]
... ordinary people are just not technical
09:26:05 [ivan]
... lack of knowledge all around
09:26:21 [ivan]
can we expect the user to understand all this stuff? No and we should not
09:26:46 [ivan]
... promotion of ATAG compliance would be a half way to push out accessible systems
09:26:56 [ivan]
... accessibility and usability are part of good design
09:27:08 [ivan]
... involving users in the development woudl be very good
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09:28:02 [ivan]
ATAG= authoring tool accessiblity guidelines
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09:29:09 [ivan]
chaals, opera: i think i agree with josh that making atag part of procurement stuff is important.
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09:29:51 [ivan]
Kai, could you elaborate on your experience these kind of decision?
09:29:51 [ivan]
Kai: the vendor decision was made on the way it would fit the business model and I am almost sure that the accessibility was not part of the decision
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09:30:09 [ivan]
... i figured at some point this should be done and legislation it would come
09:30:28 [ivan]
... some people know that but companies as a whole I am not sure it is on their radar screen?
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09:30:54 [ivan]
chaals: how much time would it take?
09:30:54 [ivan]
kai: 1-2 years...
09:31:25 [ivan]
sally, institute of blind, uk: let us not forget about the people who create the content and momst of the cms systems do not give tools for people with disabilities cannot use those tools
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09:31:58 [ivan]
shawn: by the way atag also covers that aspect, but yes
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09:32:38 [ivan]
janine??: in the us cms system based is the whitehouse. gov which is an accessible site, managed by administrative people, non technical people
09:32:53 [dom]
09:33:26 [ivan]
... Kai, you spoke about yuour company but what about your customers
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09:33:59 [ivan]
kai: cms is a dumm system that generates code quickly, the people who generate the templates are those where you have to start
09:34:19 [ivan]
... the system cannot generate code just becuase the system it better, it boils down to the users of the systems
09:34:25 [judy]
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09:34:58 [ivan]
... we incorporate tables of of other company, the company sells a full html page which is then embedded into the page
09:35:08 [timbl]
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09:35:15 [ivan]
... i am running a validator through the full portal to find those
09:35:34 [ivan]
... but a lot of the stuff we do is automated, difficult to find
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09:35:46 [ivan]
josh: a system could adopt some constraint based system that could improve the case
09:36:06 [ivan]
... there are tools that are better, drupal and ??, for example,
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09:36:18 [ivan]
... there are systems out there, technology exists out there
09:36:27 [taki]
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09:36:31 [jallan]
?? == Joomla
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09:36:51 [dsr]
janina adds that the white house CMS is available under the GPL
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09:37:22 [ivan]
??? university of toronto: I agree with you, josh, there are many places when constraint can be put in
09:37:57 [ivan]
templates, accessibilit elsewhere, there is a huge strength in the cms way
09:37:57 [ivan]
... they have a kind of power
09:37:58 [ori]
I think the main issue is does the template designed with standards in mind
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09:38:26 [ivan]
kai: let us not forget that it is a stupid software, the great majority of the systems out there do not have it
09:38:37 [ivan]
... it boils down to people using the templates
09:38:45 [ivan]
josema: i agree with Kai
09:39:40 [ivan]
(sorry, scribe lost it at some point:-(
09:40:19 [ivan]
josh: it is interesting what kai said, but there are some systems that just out of the box shine, like drupal...
09:40:50 [ivan]
... with accessible back end
09:40:50 [ivan]
... that is the kind of things are we are talking about
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09:40:54 [ivan]
... humans are the weakest link in the process, that is true
09:41:05 [ivan]
larry: i think if you look from the cms's point of view, there are a large number of requirements, accessibility is one
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09:41:25 [ivan]
... accessibility is one area where content management is looking at carefully
09:41:34 [ivan]
... other areas are also talked about like mobile where more attention would improve
09:41:55 [ivan]
... we have to take a broader view of what the web is, and this is an aread where w3c can look at
09:42:11 [IanJ]
Larry: expanding view of web into the entire ecosystem of creating content would be appropriate for w3c
09:43:01 [ivan]
phil archer: we talked about accessiblity, i wonder what kind of cms sytems could be added that would add microformat, rdfa, etc?
09:43:18 [ivan]
larry: there is a real opportunity there
09:43:51 [ivan]
josh: that is great, the core stuff should be done before the higher abstractions happen
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09:45:03 [ivan]
al guilman: in the cms systems it is getting the things personalized with rules, there is a leverage opportunity these systems
09:45:35 [ivan]
... it gives the possibility to adapt the use the rules at the right place and it help in cleaning up the web
09:46:07 [olivier]
09:46:08 [ivan]
jeremy carroll: one of the problems Kai seems to have is that the content that is generated is not accessible or not even good html but browsers show it
09:46:23 [ivan]
... the cms should adapt stricter rules on what they are doing
09:46:49 [ivan]
... they should send error message to the browsers instead of doing it and they should send error messages instead
09:47:07 [ivan]
kai: but we should proactively clean it up things
09:47:21 [ivan]
jeremy: while cleaning up the crap we should also stop producing
09:47:43 [ivan]
kai: the system managers would have to be convinced to be able to it...
09:48:01 [ivan]
josh: there has to be a greater awareness
09:48:04 [ori]
CMS does not produce code by itself, it takes the template and the content created by the content editor. Most content editors know nothing about HTML and actually write the code using an editor provided by the CMS
09:48:08 [unl_]
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09:48:20 [ivan]
larry: a lot of times the info you need to provide, say, a caption is loss in the process
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09:48:53 [ivan]
... there is an opportunity to reexamine the workflow from the photographer up to the video and the page to preserve the information
09:49:18 [ivan]
kai: one of the thing that we use inside is to use the validators w3c provide
09:49:29 [ivan]
... i have to explain a lot of things to my managers
09:49:45 [ivan]
... but because of the complexity, but the speed is such that we need more automated tools
09:50:04 [ivan]
... i combined a crawler with validators to find problems
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09:50:35 [ivan]
josema: what w3c could do? we should have more deployement of atag
09:50:53 [ivan]
... but what can we learn from cms vendors on what they need?
09:50:53 [ivan]
... we may be missing something there
09:50:57 [ivan]
.... i would love to learn more there
09:51:14 [ivan]
josh: i would like to see larger vendors use and support accesssibility more
09:51:17 [timbl]
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09:51:28 [ivan]
... the open source community has produced lots of good tools there
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09:51:54 [ivan]
rrsagent, draft minutes
09:51:54 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ivan
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09:52:09 [marie]
thx a lot ivan!
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09:52:37 [dom]
ScribeNick: dom
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09:55:05 [dom]
Rotan: [introducting lightning talks]
09:55:15 [unl]
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09:55:15 [dom]
... questions should be lightning questions as well - at most 1 sentence
09:55:21 [marie]
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09:55:51 [dom]
[Renato Iannella, NICTA, presenting on Social Networks Interoperability]
09:55:59 [dom]
Renato: social networks interoperability has been a common theme of discussion this week
09:56:07 [dom]
... social networks are pretty much walled gardens
09:56:09 [dom]
... you have to reinvite your friends when you get in a new network
09:56:13 [dom]
... we're trying to see how we can build a community to reduce these walled gardens
09:56:21 [dom]
... also, social networks are driving the needs for new technologies
09:56:32 [dom]
... so we're talking about setting an XG to look at the big picture
09:56:41 [dom]
... in particular on topics around data and policy portability
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09:56:52 [dom]
... we're discussing setting up an XG charter
09:57:22 [dom]
... semantic web people, mobile and others in w3c, plus non-w3c contributors
09:57:31 [dom]
... W3C is organizing a workshop on the topic in January
09:57:35 [dom]
... another workshop during WWW2008
09:57:39 [dom]
09:57:48 [marie]
s/workshop/proposed workshop
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09:58:25 [dom]
@@@: is social network really a different application or a base for appliications?
09:58:40 [dom]
Renato: there are different levels of social netowrks
09:58:48 [dom]
09:58:55 [dom]
@@@2: What about Open Social?
09:59:05 [marie]
s/@@@/Larry Masinter
09:59:08 [dom]
Renato: they belong to the communities we would like to bring to our effort
09:59:44 [dom]
PhilA: Can you reassure me you'll look at privacy questions? e.g. being able to remove your content from several places at once
09:59:59 [dom]
Renato: I can't guarantee, but clearly a topic of interest to me
10:00:27 [dom]
[Harry Halpin presenting on "Social Networking: is W3C ready?"]
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10:02:08 [dom]
HH: lots of communities have been trying to address the problem of social networking and interoperability
10:02:08 [dom]
... e.g. dataportability
10:02:08 [dom]
... lots of grass roots communities working on this area
10:02:11 [dom]
... e.g. to build authentication/identity systems
10:02:13 [dom]
... like OpenId, OAuth,
10:02:15 [dom]
... outside of W3C
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10:02:21 [dom]
... I don't think W3C can affort to ignore them
10:02:23 [dom]
... Also, W3C needs to look at how to address the problems of merging/querying social networks as social graphs
10:02:27 [dom]
... Some of these questions are being addressed in the semantic web stack
10:02:30 [josema]
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10:02:37 [dom]
... One of the big problems is about privacy
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10:02:45 [dom]
... which requires trust and proof
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10:03:02 [dom]
... But the SW ins't quite up to the task yet (?)
10:03:05 [Liam]
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10:03:23 [dom]
... Also, there are a lot of social networks around the work - many you may not know about
10:03:32 [dom]
... we need to have them data driven and @@@-centered
10:04:09 [dom]
DanBri: I've been involved in these discussions with others - we have created a public mailing list to continue and further these discussions
10:04:16 [dom]
10:04:24 [dom]
ArtB, Nokia: looks like very interesting work
10:04:44 [dom]
... what is the relationship of what you're trying to do with OpenWeb Foundation?
10:05:09 [SallyC]
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10:05:11 [dom]
... also, if you're creating an XG, please go with the RF option
10:05:21 [dom]
Harry: clearly we would go for the RF option
10:05:34 [danbri]
10:05:46 [dom]
... for Open Web Foundation, I think they started it to play as a harbor for the IPR/patent questions
10:05:49 [danbri]
(an incubator incubator....)
10:05:55 [dom]
... I think the W3C can play a more humble role in this space
10:06:10 [dom]
... in looking at policies questions, not only targeted at software questions
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10:06:45 [dom]
[Andrew Arch, W3C, WAI domain, looking at Ageing issues and accessibility]
10:07:14 [dom]
Andrew: 1/3rd of the population in Japan, and in many other countries, is more than 65 years old
10:07:36 [AnnBassetti]
we are very interested in social networking within big corporations as well
10:07:41 [dom]
... we've looking at over 150 studies of older users on-line, and they reported a wide diversity of requirements
10:07:47 [dom]
... partly due to experience or inexperience
10:08:14 [dom]
... cognitive issues are among the most reported issue
10:08:28 [unl]
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10:08:59 [dom]
... most studies identify usability issues rather than technical issues in terms of accessibility
10:09:23 [plinss_]
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10:09:33 [dom]
... We have a BoF table to explore this further today
10:10:20 [dom]
[Manuel Serrano, INRIA, "Hop, an Everyware Development Kit"]
10:10:48 [dom]
MS: what language to use to develop an ubiquitous web application?
10:10:57 [gsnedders]
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10:11:02 [dom]
... we have designed a HOP system that comes with a language and a runtime system
10:11:21 [dom]
... the idea is to re-use the Web as a virtual machine
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10:11:32 [dom]
... HOP is fully compatible with the Web
10:11:49 [dom]
... we have added a broker in the general client/server/db scheme
10:12:08 [dom]
... typically the broker would be used to communicate between your device and the application
10:12:23 [dom]
... the broker serves also as a full-fledged web server
10:12:32 [unl_]
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10:13:01 [dom]
... this could be used e.g. to create a diffuse music player, where one device can be used to raise the volume on another device that plays music from yet another device
10:13:02 [gsnedders]
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10:13:14 [dom]
... thanks to this broker that serves as central point
10:13:25 [dom]
... HOP is available under GPL, and is based on pure web technologies
10:13:44 [dom]
10:14:03 [dom]
Rotan: the presentation you just watched is a single HTML File - it is worth looking at
10:14:12 [dom]
... HOP is quite impressive, I encourage you to look at it
10:14:38 [dom]
[Dave Raggett, W3C/JustSystems, XBRL and the Semantic Web]
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10:18:13 [dom]
[Jeremy Carroll, TopQuadrant, "TopBraid Ensemble semantic web browser"]
10:18:13 [dom]
JC: TopQuadrant is a Semantic Web company
10:21:13 [dom]
Ken Laskey, MITRE: one of the things to take into account: we closed the uncertainty reasoning XG in March - there might be more work coming in there
10:21:25 [dom]
... I think this is relevant for you in case where the information is incomplete, etc
10:21:40 [dom]
JC: [scribe missed answer]
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10:22:02 [dom]
[Charles McCathieNevile, Opera, Standards API and Debuggers]
10:22:30 [dom]
Chaals: We have developed DragonFly as a developer's helper - important for developers
10:22:39 [unl]
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10:22:44 [dom]
... it is an open source tool, a widget, installed by default
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10:24:09 [dom]
... the architecture of Dragonfly allows to separate the watcher from the browser, e.g. debugging what's happening on a phone browser from a desktop browser
10:24:28 [dom]
... We think this should be standardized for the greater benefits of web developers
10:25:17 [dom]
Josh_@@@ (timeless), Nokia: @@@ (missed comment)
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10:25:43 [dom]
Rotan: We will have another session at the end the day; slides will linked from the minutes
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10:26:39 [JonathanJ]
rrsagent, draft minutes
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I have made the request to generate JonathanJ
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s/Josh_@@@/Josh Soref/
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zakim, ??p1 is markh
11:28:37 [Zakim]
+markh; got it
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11:48:19 [plh]
scribeNick: plh
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11:48:39 [plh]
Topic: MMI, VB and SCXML Demonstrations
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11:49:00 [plh]
[Arun is doing his demo]
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11:49:30 [arun]
phl, umm, Arun is NOT doing a demo
11:49:40 [arun]
11:49:44 [arun]
Rahul is doing his demo
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11:49:57 [arun]
Arun is digesting his lunch :)
11:50:05 [plh]
s/doing his demo/showing a video of a demo/
11:50:26 [plh]
s/Arun/Raj Tumuluri/
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11:52:09 [arun]
plh, actually it is Rahul Akolkar that is doing a demo, and NOT Raj Tumuluri
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11:53:19 [arun]
NOW Raj Tumuluri *may* do a demo.
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s/Raj Tumuluri/Rahul Akolkar/
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11:54:17 [plh]
[Raj Tumuluri is now demonstrating Multimodal Interaction with SCXML, Voice, HTML, and Ink]
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11:57:40 [plh]
Deborah: no time for question unfortunately, feel free to catch the presenters later one
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scribeNick: dsr
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12:01:21 [dsr]
scribe: dsr
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12:01:49 [dsr]
raman: I view the web as a democratic thing, it is about everybody coming together to share
12:01:54 [ed]
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12:02:35 [dsr]
it takes more than 1, 2 or 4 browser vendors to do ensure democracy of the web.
12:03:06 [dsr]
It should be easy to create browser extensions for vocabularies.
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12:03:51 [dsr]
If these become successful, then the extensions can become part of every browser.
12:03:51 [dsr]
Henry Sivonen: browsers present a dom tree
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12:04:11 [dsr]
SVG, MathML, etc. are dom trees as far as the browser is concerned.
12:04:15 [chaals]
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12:04:28 [dsr]
Today the common way excludes svg and mathml.
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12:04:42 [dsr]
(on text/html)
12:05:01 [dsr]
On the client document.write doesn;t work with xml
12:05:52 [dsr]
We should add features while keeping html working, and hence we should extend html to include svg and mathml.
12:06:19 [FabGandon]
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12:06:25 [dsr]
Browsers are forgiving of errors, and avoid the draconian error handling expected of xml.
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12:06:57 [dsr]
(lost Herry's last point)
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12:08:02 [anne]
Erik D.
12:08:23 [anne]
Erik Dahlström, that is
12:08:27 [glazou]
Erika Dahlström
12:08:32 [dsr]
Erik describes the benefits of SVG
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12:09:26 [dsr]
Erik: exporting a fragment of SVG requires some care with current editors
12:09:35 [klaus]
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12:10:03 [dsr]
SVG is today an XML format and this will complicate integration with HTML
12:10:33 [dsr]
ChrisL asks how many people are in WGs producing XML.
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12:11:28 [dsr]
How many people have used HTML and SVG in the same document?
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12:11:40 [dsr]
How many have found problems with SVG needing to be welformed?
12:12:19 [dsr]
Does any one have authoring tools that generate HTML? what about XHTML?
12:12:37 [dsr]
What about authoring tools for SVG?
12:12:55 [dsr]
what about tools that create a mix of HTML and SVG?
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12:14:05 [dsr]
Charlie: we need different strategies for deploying XML vocabularties to the browser
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12:14:19 [dsr]
plugins are not very effective.
12:14:34 [Steeeven]
12:14:40 [dsr]
server-side rewriting is another possibility
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12:15:17 [dsr]
If we had XBL support in all the clients, that would be helpful.
12:15:35 [dsr]
In the meantime, we can use JavaScript libraries to interpret the XML
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12:16:22 [dsr]
The ubiquity project is open source.
12:16:30 [rahul]
Ubiquity XForms open source project (Apache licensed):
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12:17:36 [dsr]
Charlie: we are refactoring XForms into a series of bite sized specs.
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12:18:11 [dsr]
(Charlie is talking at too high a bitrate for dsr to keep up)
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12:18:52 [dsr]
The ubiquity project makes good use of Ajax ...
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12:19:11 [dsr]
Raman: this is actually interesting.
12:19:41 [dsr]
What new things do you need to do as a home based innovator?
12:20:15 [dsr]
There's plenty of toolkits that are written in Java and which produce javascript.
12:20:28 [dsr]
Dichotomy between markup and scripting.
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12:21:30 [dsr]
As an innovator you should be able to create new xml vocabularies without needing the browser vendors to do anything specifically for you.
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12:22:19 [dsr]
The only time that browsers need to change is when you change the browser platform.
12:22:47 [dsr]
For many other things you can introduce new authoring abstractions without a need to change the browsers.
12:23:32 [dsr]
H&kon: the people on the web didn't accept the authority of the standards people.
12:23:43 [dsr]
they invented their own tags
12:24:02 [dsr]
it is easy to add new tags e.g. within the canvas element.
12:24:15 [Steeeven]
That's what Raman was saying
12:24:22 [dsr]
(or was that the class attribute?)
12:24:52 [dsr]
Raman: there shouldn't be a huge division between XML and HTML
12:25:23 [dsr]
you shouldn't need to wait for a change to html specs.
12:25:47 [dsr]
Raman and H&kon agree that you can do this today via scripts that interpret the dom.
12:26:12 [Steeeven]
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12:26:55 [dsr]
H&kon: strong support for W3C working in HTML5, it would be a sad day if this had to be done elsewhere.
12:27:22 [dsr]
Norm: I have being using XML since we spelled it as SGML
12:27:23 [MikeSmith]
as HÃ¥kon says, there are many ways that developers and create HTML extensions and processing behavior for them without needing to ask browser vendors to support them natively
12:27:39 [MikeSmith]
s/developers and/developers can/
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12:28:12 [dsr]
Norm: we would be doing the community a big service if we could follow Murray's idea of one web.
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12:28:36 [dsr]
Namespace declarations could be made more convenient
12:29:02 [dsr]
Merging svg and mathml into html doesn't scale when we want to consider other vocabs.
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12:29:52 [dsr]
Henri: over past 10 years only a few vocabs that browsers really need to support.
12:30:20 [MikeSmith]
What other vocabularies similar to SVG and MathML do we have?
12:30:43 [dsr]
Chris: you can see that in 2 ways, perhaps it is too hard to add new vocabs.
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12:31:18 [dsr]
Raman: what is the cause and what is the effect?
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12:32:16 [dsr]
Charlie: we have done such a good job on selling the benefits of XML, and we now need to allow these to be realized in the browser.
12:32:40 [dsr]
We will see an N squared effect if we succeed.
12:33:10 [dsr]
David Baron: depending on what kinds of extensibility you are talking about there is a danger there.
12:33:59 [dsr]
Using Javascript is fine as it is already available.
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12:34:48 [dsr]
I use linux on a 64 bit cpu and don't have access t flash which is a problem for many websites.
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12:36:09 [Norm]
RRSAgent, pointer?
12:36:09 [RRSAgent]
12:36:11 [dsr]
Alex: for html the web works quite well, but for other vocabs e.g. mathml it isn't so good
12:36:19 [dsr]
the consumers are suffering
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12:37:14 [dsr]
we are still arguing for over 10 years without a good solution
12:37:31 [dsr]
Chris: if all you want to do there are solutions, but not that nice.
12:37:50 [dsr]
Student's find it hard to install plugins/.
12:38:21 [dsr]
The content producers are no better than the students.
12:39:00 [dsr]
People tend to give up and use formats like PDF
12:39:33 [dsr]
Charlie: checkout the ubiquity project as an example of how to implement xml vocabs in today's browsers.
12:40:41 [dsr]
Henri: you end up shipping an imperative program along with your markup.
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12:41:19 [dsr]
The browser scripting APIs are what needs to be standardized
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12:42:04 [dsr]
Charlie: we are way ahead of just shipping imperative code, we are relying on a well defined xml vocabulARY
12:42:16 [rahul]
Ubiquity XForms examples (slow loading off SVN :-)
12:42:42 [dsr]
Henri: what about web crawlers? How do they see the markup that the script acts on?
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12:43:12 [dsr]
Raman: the crawlers would see the declarative markup
12:43:37 [dsr]
(the interpreter is supplied via a script element)
12:44:34 [dsr]
Raman talks about the meme of spotting repeated idioms and providing declarative markup for them
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12:45:02 [dsr]
Henri: how does a crawler know that a script is present that can interpret the markup?
12:45:21 [dsr]
Raman: having the crawler interpret the script is very expensive
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12:46:09 [dsr]
Raman: web hackers exploit hacks with document .write and this means that crawlers have a tough time.
12:46:54 [dsr]
Henri: the script API is more important than the markup when it comes to standardization.
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12:47:31 [dsr]
Chris: the crawler should need to worry about the script
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12:56:39 [glazou]
is this whole discussion minuted at all ???
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12:57:39 [MikeSmith]
yeah, he did get disconneted
12:58:15 [marie]
he knows that he got disconnected now
12:59:12 [marcos]
the DOM can already recognize arbitrary elements.
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13:01:30 [marie]
dave has issues to reconnect - who'd be willing to take over scribing please?
13:01:33 [marcos]!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A...%3CtheTimblTag%20hello%3E
13:01:41 [marcos]
for example
13:02:16 [MikeSmith]
scribenick: MikeSmith
13:02:18 [timbl]
glazoe, can you sumarize?
13:02:24 [marie]
many thanks mikey
13:02:39 [timbl]
... Maybe having better ways to plu gin js libs and implement standards would be a good idr as as well
13:02:40 [IanJ]
timbl: You need to be able to experiment; and then some things get standardized.
13:02:52 [MikeSmith]
Jonase: having better ways to plug-in JS libraries into browsers would be good
13:03:05 [timbl]
These libs have ben badly integrated with HTML ... we as browser impl were cautions, not sure it would be used.
13:03:18 [timbl]
The cost is high because of the size of t espec
13:03:22 [MikeSmith]
Jonas: Another thing is that a number of W3C technologies are difficult to integrate into browsers
13:03:37 [timbl]
It would be good to ...] as well has vieng spec swhich integrate wiht HTML
13:03:46 [timbl]
Raman: Yes on large specs are a pain
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13:04:07 [marcos]
summary, XBL2 solves this problem
13:04:18 [timbl]
... peole awho say they are implementing HTML5 are in fact doing variou s diff bits
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13:04:22 [MikeSmith]
Raman: HTML5 is good example of a case where a smaller set of specs would have ended up serving us better.
13:04:33 [timbl]
If we has smaller specs, we woudl know what they actually implemnted
13:04:44 [timbl]
Henri S: I didn't incldue Flash as itisn'ty XML
13:04:54 [timbl]
If you are on 64 bit linux there is no Flash
13:05:00 [MikeSmith]
Henri: Flash is part of the platform in the sense that if you don't have it, there is a lot of content you can't access.
13:05:00 [timbl]
On my phone I don't have flush
13:05:02 [gsnedders]
s/itisn'ty/it isn't/
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13:05:36 [Liam]
[I have flash on my 64-bit Linux system at home]
13:05:55 [MikeSmith]
Henri: I agree with David Baron that extensibility is a problem when you [have examples like Flash where you have a single vendor deploying their own extensions to the core Web platform]
13:05:55 [timbl]
MikeSmith, are you scribing?
13:06:00 [MikeSmith]
timbl: yes
13:06:02 [timbl]
13:06:17 [MikeSmith]
Henri: What needs to be standard are the APIs
13:06:20 [arun]
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13:07:23 [MikeSmith]
Henri: What I'm hearing is that extending based on the class attribute is bad, but it would somehow be good if we moved it allowing [arbitrary extensions based on element names rather than class values:
13:07:36 [MikeSmith]
Raman: the class attribute does not scale
13:07:49 [IanJ]
Raman: microformats suffers from that today.
13:07:52 [IanJ] for small things.
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13:08:21 [Rotan]
Raman: "That small camel will break very quickly and you'll have many humps on the road."
13:08:26 [MikeSmith]
Raman: the problem [with microformats] is the same as with HTML5 in that control over extending the vocabulary is centralized
13:08:55 [dsr]
Example of div for video as something that wouldn't work, video relies on some kind of native implementation.
13:08:55 [MikeSmith]
Henri: The execution enviroment is what needs to be standardized.
13:09:18 [wonsuk]
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13:09:47 [MikeSmith]
Robin: A disturbing confusion is between the operational behavior between what what browser does and the semantics of markup.
13:09:55 [dsr]
Larry: declarative markup has other uses besides being interpreted by a browser.
13:10:05 [MikeSmith]
Robin: Declarative markup has uses other than what a browser does with it.
13:10:25 [MikeSmith]
13:10:32 [MikeSmith]
scribenick: dsr
13:11:02 [dsr]
The ability to use markup in multiple ways is very valuable.
13:11:09 [gsnedders]
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13:11:21 [dsr]
Raman: agrees strongly with Larry.
13:12:01 [dsr]
Robin Berjon: crawlers not being able to understand new vocans, that is a red herring
13:12:10 [dsr]
13:12:42 [dsr]
Crawlers are more interested in the text content than the tags
13:13:25 [unl_]
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13:13:57 [dsr]
Robin: a second thing - a lot of people would like to be able to support new vocabs using a bit of scripting, where is XBL?
13:14:12 [MikeSmith]
XBL or XBL2?
13:14:19 [Karen]
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13:14:42 [dsr]
Erik: XBL is work in progress for Opera
13:14:48 [MikeSmith]
dino, please implement XBL2
13:14:48 [heycam`]
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13:15:28 [MikeSmith]
WebKit has a Google Summer of Code student working on XBL2
13:15:40 [dsr]
Likewise for other browsers ...
13:16:14 [dsr]
LiamQ: a few people have mentioned combining client side XSLT with javascript.
13:16:28 [dsr]
This seems to work across most current browsers
13:16:37 [sylvaing]
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13:16:52 [dsr]
This means the scripting link can be added unobtrusively via XSLT
13:16:58 [DanC_lap]
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13:17:02 [darobin]
MikeSmith: I meant XBL2, XBL is more or less DITW I believe
13:17:09 [dsr]
Charlie: prefer the XBL approach to XSLT
13:17:30 [gsnedders]
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13:17:48 [dsr]
Raman: client-side XSLT is a success story, despite having been declared unimplementable at one time
13:18:19 [timbl]
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13:18:26 [dsr]
Hixie: I am confused as to why XML isn't solving this problem ...
13:18:51 [dsr]
Chris: please stay at the microphone.
13:19:25 [dsr]
Chris: people want some kind of declarative markup to hang the imperative code off
13:19:42 [dsr]
Hixie: why aren't xml and namespaces the solution?
13:20:24 [dsr]
This almost works ...
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13:21:02 [dsr]
Tim: right now people aren't inventing markup vocabs but are rather burying stuff in script
13:21:41 [dsr]
Chris: if your content hard codes the link to the script, where is the competition on interpreters?
13:22:53 [dsr]
Tim: with well defined markup semantics ... (missed as mic fades)
13:24:05 [dsr]
If the number of users increases, then the browser could provide support via extensions bound via namespaces or even native implementations. we need a smooth path
13:24:20 [marie]
thanks a lot dave!
13:24:32 [dsr]
Steve: thanks panel and wraps up before the break
13:24:33 [marie]
.. and mike+timbl
13:25:12 [MikeSmith]
hhalpin: me too
13:25:25 [MikeSmith]
as far as your suspicion
13:25:29 [dsr]
Steve will stay in the room for anyone who wants to ask about the web foundation.
13:25:48 [Hixie]
hhalpin: maybe we can have a cross-group meeting in one of the htmlwg's unconference slots
13:25:53 [amit_]
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13:25:58 [dsr]
10 minute break followed by demos
13:26:03 [dsr]
scribe: null
13:26:15 [nick]
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13:26:34 [MikeSmith]
btw, koalie has secured a second room for HTML WG f2f, if we want to have breakout sessions
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13:42:50 [Jean-Gui]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
13:42:50 [Zakim]
On the phone I see SteveH (muted), MeetingRoom, markh (muted)
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13:46:46 [myakura]
espresso machines are dead :(
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13:54:37 [Karen]
Semantic Web Activity Demos
13:54:51 [Karen]
Ivan Herman: The demos are online, but please wait to do this
13:54:56 [Karen]
...don't bring down the network
13:55:06 [Karen]
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Pushing queries to databases
13:55:14 [Karen]
...hosptial database of diabetic patients
13:55:23 [darobin]
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13:55:25 [Karen]
...I knew schema, end points, knew how to speak to database
13:55:32 [Karen]
...if you want to share it
13:55:40 [Karen]
...I supplied a URL to id the end point
13:55:47 [Karen]
...and mechanically produce a large number of triple
13:55:50 [Karen]
13:55:55 [Karen] use conventions
13:56:16 [Karen]
...use data structures, relationship names, and identifiers that others know
13:56:24 [Karen]
...transfer from one to another
13:56:30 [Karen] with a simple SPARQL construct
13:56:36 [Karen]
...pretty much all you need to do
13:56:41 [Karen] have three copies of my database
13:56:52 [Karen]
...good for redundancy but not how to run things [laughs]
13:56:55 [plinss_]
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13:57:04 [Karen] let's instead do query transformation and push the query this way
13:57:13 [Karen] on one data structure; works on another data structure
13:57:17 [Karen] this back to the SQL
13:57:26 [Karen]
...go back to the SQL query; we know how fast they are
13:57:36 [Karen]
...instead of copies of database I have queries
13:57:45 [Karen]
...configuration is trivial; that's the point
13:58:05 [Karen]
...SDTM...a data model for clinical data for pharmas and drug studies
13:58:18 [Karen]
...pipeline said use query from one database (HL7)
13:58:19 [Karen] another
13:58:26 [Karen]
...tell about that construct; gives me one query
13:58:33 [Karen]
...pipe to another query and another construct
13:58:38 [Karen]
...goes back to another query
13:58:40 [Karen] same results
13:58:44 [Karen]
...lots of people doing this
13:58:50 [amit_]
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13:58:50 [Karen]
...I am using SPARQL constructs
13:58:54 [Karen]
...Virtuoso does DDL
13:59:02 [Karen]
...I find SPARQL constructs
13:59:11 [Karen]
...thank Lilly and Lincoln Labs for funding this work
13:59:22 [tlr]
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13:59:30 [Karen]
Scott Marshall: That was Eric Prud'hommeaux team contact of HCLS
13:59:35 [Karen]
...I have a great use case
13:59:45 [Karen]
...reads mission of HCLS
14:00:01 [Karen]
..."to develop, advocate, and support hte use of SW tech for biological science,
14:00:07 [Karen]
...translational medicine and health care.
14:00:17 [Karen]
...get people back to being knowledge worders instead of hackers
14:00:23 [Karen]
...So scientific questions and sources
14:00:34 [Karen] HCLS we found interest in neuro degenerative diseases
14:00:43 [Karen]
...we found a question created with Alzheimer's Forum
14:00:50 [Karen] find genes in signal transduction
14:01:03 [Karen] can see appear a number of data sources integrated into a knowledge base
14:01:04 [ChrisL]
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14:01:17 [Karen]
...when you look at biomed data sources, there are over a thousand
14:01:21 [Karen]
...huge amount of literature
14:01:23 [olgac_UH]
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14:01:32 [Karen]
...see our question here, we used these four data sources
14:01:44 [Karen]
...very important is that we used linked data principles
14:01:44 [smedero]
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14:01:51 [Karen]
...used URIs to name things, HTTP URIs
14:02:00 [Karen]
...when someone clicks from browser you get useful RDF
14:02:11 [Karen]
...include links to other RDF then you start to build Semantic Web
14:02:19 [Karen] it looks in SPARQL RDF query language
14:02:28 [Karen]
...can see four different data sources are being integrated
14:02:35 [Karen]
...we have done preprocessing for reasoning
14:02:43 [Karen]
..cannot reason across 300million triples
14:02:46 [Karen]
...give you an idea
14:02:55 [Karen] the query I just showed you
14:02:59 [Karen] you the faster one
14:03:07 [Karen]
[Web not working]
14:03:19 [Karen]
...distributed query use case
14:03:23 [Karen]
....pushing queries to data
14:03:27 [ed]
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14:03:32 [Karen]
...the knowledge base; we did with commodity hardware
14:03:36 [Karen]
...a couple months of hard work
14:03:43 [Karen]
...big on wish list was to query sources where they are
14:03:51 [Karen]
...see in diagram; before you have ability
14:03:56 [Karen]
...go out to every data source
14:04:03 [Karen]
...and use diff. access methods to get dta
14:04:12 [hlee7]
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14:04:13 [Karen]
..story after is push out to diff sources and push out that way
14:04:19 [Karen]
...instead of aggregating in one place
14:04:21 [IanJ]
[multiple distributed sparql queries]
14:04:21 [Karen]
...that's it
14:04:28 [Karen]
Ivan: while we switch, any questions?
14:04:32 [noah]
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14:05:00 [Karen]
Jeremy: Is there a question about query vs. aggregating data; what about performance?
14:05:04 [judy]
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14:05:06 [Karen]
...when you do joins across the databases?
14:05:15 [Karen]
Eric: Problem with that approach
14:05:28 [Karen]
...requires someone to pave the road ahead of you to do the warehousing for you
14:05:38 [Karen]
...but you cannot do because no one has paved the warehouse
14:05:46 [Karen]
...performance; all in C; nothing complicated
14:05:48 [marcos]
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14:05:54 [Karen]
...query transformation is lost...
14:05:56 [plinss_]
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14:06:07 [Kai]
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14:06:10 [Karen]
? We have one datapoint from OpenLink
14:06:19 [Karen]
...where aggregated data runs two to three times faster
14:06:23 [Karen]
Ivan: next demo
14:06:27 [timbl]
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14:06:27 [IanJ]
s/?/Ashok Malhotra
14:06:32 [Karen]
Raphael: I'm from CWI
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14:06:55 [Karen]
Raphael: This is a Dutch project using SW technologies
14:07:00 [Karen]
...showing this cloud before the demo
14:07:09 [Karen]
...people who work in SW are used to seeing the data cloud
14:07:16 [Karen] can recognize dbpedia
14:07:19 [dom]
14:07:21 [Karen] is the old cloud
14:07:27 [Karen]
...use old controlled vocabularies
14:07:36 [Karen]
...Getty is source; licensed
14:07:45 [Karen]
...project has converted all these vocabularies to RDF
14:07:54 [Karen] you get machine readable; and get cloud
14:08:02 [Karen]
...demo shows using all these controlled vocabularies
14:08:13 [Karen]
...this is just an interface for annotating artworks
14:08:18 [Karen]
...used by professional annotators
14:08:22 [Karen]
...they ID an artwork
14:08:25 [Karen]
...what you see here
14:08:27 [csma]
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14:08:28 [Karen] on it
14:08:32 [Karen]
...and look at image
14:08:37 [unl_]
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14:08:38 [Karen]
...a famous drawing
14:08:43 [Karen]
...from 17th century
14:08:49 [Karen]
...French Robespierre in public
14:08:54 [Karen] can edit the title and descriptions
14:08:58 [Karen]
...that's free text
14:09:06 [Karen]
...but you can fill in who, what, where, when property
14:09:13 [Karen]
...use control vocabularies behind the applicaitons
14:09:18 [Karen]
...have suggestions
14:09:22 [Karen]
...see on right is various people
14:09:32 [Karen]
...control vocabulary of the source from which it came
14:09:34 [Karen]
...I have alignment
14:09:47 [Karen]
...this was in two different resources
14:09:57 [Karen]
...I want to say join
14:10:02 [paul]
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14:10:05 [Karen]
...artworks with this person
14:10:13 [Karen] it; see the lable; but it's a URI
14:10:16 [Karen] and behind it
14:10:25 [Karen]
...descriptions, properties, values, diverse agents and so on
14:10:30 [Karen]
...I can see that with overfield
14:10:35 [Karen]
...see an execution
14:10:51 [Karen]
...type and I can get the values, suggestions from this controlled vocabulary
14:10:54 [Karen]
...what I see here
14:11:04 [Karen]'s the ? where this term appears
14:11:08 [Karen]
...again here I continue
14:11:12 [plinss_]
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14:11:18 [Karen]
...artwork has been made in English
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14:11:22 [Karen]
...I will have suggestions
14:11:27 [SallyC]
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14:11:39 [Karen]
...get the professional annotator pushes data into database
14:11:44 [Karen]
...and go for next artwork
14:11:48 [IanJ]
s/made in English/made in La Haie (the Hague, in English)/
14:11:50 [Karen]
...nice end of story
14:11:59 [Karen] they like how to use it
14:12:01 [dom]
s/La Haie/Den Haag/
14:12:10 [Karen]
...the system is so close
14:12:16 [Karen]
...openness that they are bringing
14:12:25 [Karen] now they are upgrading the whole backend systems
14:12:29 [Karen] integrate search
14:12:34 [Karen]
Ivan: questions?
14:13:01 [Karen]
? Did you consider to provide a common ontology for your tool?
14:13:08 [Karen] I align; your tool works out of the box
14:13:16 [Karen]
Raphael: use what others are using
14:13:22 [Karen]
...take controlled vocabularies
14:13:24 [Karen]
...and align them
14:13:29 [Karen]
...quality of data matters
14:13:31 [timbl]
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14:13:34 [Karen]
...align before putting into the system
14:13:46 [carlosI]
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14:13:57 [Karen]
Zaragosa demo
14:14:14 [Karen]
...City of Zaragosa was interested in promoting city; expecting millions of visitors
14:14:18 [amy]
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14:14:19 [Karen]
...that's why we built this applicaiton
14:14:32 [Karen]
...idea is to enable a customizable plan to visit the city
14:14:37 [Karen]
...this is the home page
14:14:44 [Rotan]
14:14:45 [josema]
s/Zaragosa demo/Diego Berrueta (CTIC): Zaragoza eTourism demo
14:15:01 [Norm]
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14:15:14 [Karen]
...first step is to get a profile
14:15:28 [Karen] is a set of screen shots to show application
14:15:39 [Karen]
...this is the plan/map
14:15:44 [Karen]
...what to see, do in three days
14:15:50 [Karen]
...if you click you get a table view
14:15:57 [Karen]
...see a lot of places to visit and things to do
14:16:02 [IanJ]
s/table view/detailed view/
14:16:06 [Karen]
...plan splits it up by morning and afternoon
14:16:10 [Rotan]
s/Zaragoza demo/Diego Berrueta (CTIC): Zaragoza eTourism demo
14:16:12 [Karen]
...get a description, opening hours
14:16:17 [Karen]
...see in Google maps
14:16:22 [Karen]
...change tab and get
14:16:30 [ed]
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14:16:45 [Karen]
...more things like music, restaurant locations, shopping centers
14:16:51 [Karen] far, the plan is the same for everyone
14:16:55 [amit_]
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14:16:56 [Karen]
...if I change my profile
14:17:05 [Karen]
...I have a form where I can specify specifics
14:17:26 [Karen]
...such as traveling for a conference, rest; traveling alone, group, with children
14:17:39 [Karen]
...if have disabilities; many options and preferences
14:17:43 [Karen]
...go out at night
14:17:47 [Karen]
...things I like and dislike
14:17:54 [Karen]
...what I want to visit
14:18:07 [Karen]
...if I regenerate the route, I get a different plan, specially created for me
14:18:11 [Karen] how does it work?
14:18:19 [Karen] was already available somewhere
14:18:28 [Karen]
...databases behind CMS of the city council
14:18:31 [ed]
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14:18:37 [Karen]
...University of Zaragoza
14:18:43 [Schorsch_]
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14:18:46 [Karen]
...collected in different information silos
14:18:48 [smedero]
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14:18:54 [Karen]
...we wrote an ontology and populated it
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14:19:01 [Karen]
...thousands of resources
14:19:10 [danbri]
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14:19:18 [Karen]
...once you have integrated the data, you can do lots of interesting things
14:19:29 [Karen]
...two stages: semantic match making and rules based system
14:19:31 [CharlieWiecha]
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14:19:43 [Karen]
...then we used a planning tool using these resources
14:19:57 [Karen]
...conclusion is that we used SemWeb, RDF to integrate data that was unconnected
14:20:08 [Karen]
...then we used Rules to create a new service on top of this pool of data
14:20:24 [Karen]
Eric: Does the tourist board link to your site?
14:20:38 [Karen]
...this is part of the city council Web site; linked from the home page
14:20:43 [Karen]
...of the city council
14:20:45 [smedero]
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14:20:52 [Karen]
...there are two links, one to application, another to an about of
14:21:01 [Karen]
...they are so proud of it, they want to show people how it works
14:21:12 [Karen]
...only two links to an OWL ontology that describes the sources
14:21:13 [dino]
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14:21:19 [Karen]
Eric: Great to see this going public
14:21:24 [Karen]
Steve: next panel
14:21:42 [Karen]
...more and more applications for Semantic Web technologies
14:21:48 [Karen]
...something we need to pay attention to more and more
14:21:56 [Karen]
...useful stuff; increasing amount of data out there
14:22:03 [Karen]
...many conversations about specific technology areas
14:22:12 [rigo]
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14:22:12 [Karen] instructional session today, which should be applicable to anyone
14:22:24 [Karen]
...gettting to Rec [Recommendation]
14:22:40 [MikeSmith]
Topic: Getting to Rec
14:22:48 [MikeSmith]
scribenick: MikeSmith
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14:23:10 [MikeSmith]
Rotan: we have a number of seasoned/pickled W3C WG chairs
14:23:17 [raman]
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14:23:23 [MikeSmith]
... who are ready to share their experiences with you
14:23:26 [fantasai]
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14:23:41 [MikeSmith]
Rotan: covering tools and guide for chairs
14:23:46 [MikeSmith]
... dealing iwth communities
14:23:55 [MikeSmith]
... reducing impedence
14:24:03 [MikeSmith]
... etc.
14:24:14 [MikeSmith]
[olivier takes the mic]
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14:24:44 [MikeSmith]
olivier: raise your hand if you know how many tracking systems we have a W3C
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14:25:28 [fantasai]
ScribeNick: fantasai
14:25:39 [fantasai]
Olivier: More seriously, Rotan asked me to talk to you about tools.
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14:25:53 [fantasai]
Olivier: I will come to what tools do you think should be available at w3c
14:26:09 [fantasai]
Olivier: A lot of times someone comes and asks me "It would be great if we had this"
14:26:19 [fantasai]
Olivier: And I respond, well, we have that let me find you a link
14:26:29 [fantasai]
...: A lot of tools and processing channels are already there
14:26:40 [fantasai]
Olivier: It's really difficult for even seasoned w3c chairs to find them
14:26:49 [fantasai]
Olivier: Let me point to some of them and show you how to find more
14:26:54 [fantasai]
Olivier: One way is the chairs list
14:27:00 [Zakim]
14:27:06 [fantasai]
Olivier: It is used a lot to announce "I'm transitioning to this, I'm transitioning to that"
14:27:20 [fantasai]
Oliiver: Someone complained that there's too many announcements
14:27:28 [fantasai]
Olivier: I suggest finding a way to filter that
14:27:31 [Zakim]
14:27:34 [fantasai]
Olivier: chairs@ is a great way to exchange tips
14:27:46 [fantasai]
Olivier: It's ok to ask for help when you don't know, there will be someone to answer your questions
14:28:02 [dom]
-> W3C Guide Book
14:28:05 [fantasai]
Olivier: I hope everyone knows about the W3C Guid Book
14:28:11 [fantasai]
Olivier: There are hundreds of pages
14:28:13 [dom]
s/Guid /Guide /
14:28:16 [fantasai]
Olivier: You won't want to read them all
14:28:23 [fantasai]
Olivier: But you would want to read many sections
14:28:31 [fantasai]
Olivier: It would be good ot have a better indexing
14:28:37 [fantasai]
Olivier: So people can find the section they need
14:28:42 [fantasai]
Olivier: THe guide is for people new to their role
14:28:48 [fantasai]
Olivier: We want to recreate the Guide
14:28:52 [fantasai]
Olivier: This time as a faceted guide
14:29:02 [fantasai]
Olivier scrolls throu About the Guide page on
14:29:09 [Schorsch_]
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14:29:11 [fantasai]
Olivier shows "Table of COntents; Facets"
14:29:16 [fantasai]
Olivier: There are new facets
14:29:23 [fantasai]
Olivier: TImeline, Roles, Acitivities, Tools
14:29:37 [karl]
olivier++, ianj++ for the faceted view of the guidebook
14:29:41 [jo-siemens]
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14:29:41 [fantasai]
Olivier: The title is "Collected Wisdom of the W3C Group CHairs and other collaborators"
14:29:48 [fantasai]
Olivier: Please help us keep it up to date
14:29:54 [mchampion]
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14:29:55 [fantasai]
Olivier: Add information, remove information,
14:30:02 [fantasai]
Olivier: Ill-known Tools
14:30:09 [fantasai]
Olivier: We have wikis as collaborative editing tools
14:30:24 [fantasai]
Olivier: They're still fairly tedious, but we are improving
14:30:34 [fantasai]
Olivier: There is a Last Call Comment Tracker
14:30:44 [fantasai]
Olivier: It is very useful to have this tool that lets you collect comments
14:30:59 [ted]
s/deployed soon/deployed now/ for mediawiki wikis and we will be migrating the moinmoin ones
14:31:03 [fantasai]
Olivier: discuss in the wg, get consensus, reply, track
14:31:08 [fantasai]
Olivier: Mobile Test Harness
14:31:38 [fantasai]
Olivier: This is a semi-automated test harness. If you have a test suite this lets you crowdsource your testing needs
14:31:55 [fantasai]
Olivier: WCAG 2.0 evluation database
14:32:11 [MikeSmith]
[Michael Cooper comes to stage]
14:32:14 [fantasai]
Olivier: If you have any ide of tools you think we don't have yet, and come talk to us
14:32:25 [fantasai]
Olivier: Maybe we have it
14:32:38 [fantasai]
Olivier: We have a lot of contributors and chairs that have helpd us code tools
14:32:40 [MikeSmith]
s/ide /idea/
14:32:47 [fantasai]
Olivier: The tools are all open source
14:33:02 [fantasai]
Olivier: Michael will give a demo of the WCAG 2.0 tool
14:33:28 [fantasai]
Michael: The WCAG guidelines has a different problem to solve than other REC specifications
14:33:35 [fantasai]
Michael: We're testing implementations in actual web sites.
14:33:42 [fantasai]
Michael: A standard test harnes wouldn't help us
14:33:58 [fantasai]
Micahel: We developed a framework for evaluating ...
14:34:06 [fantasai]
technical problems
14:34:26 [fantasai]
?: An awful lot of tools were contributed to W3C, and don't get enough airing. THis is just one example.
14:34:35 [fantasai]
Bert to talk about communities
14:34:37 [IanJ]
IJ note to chairs: we welcome demos of tools at chairs meetings.
14:34:41 [MikeSmith]
s/?:/Rotan: /
14:34:49 [fantasai]
Bert: Rotan thought that I have experience with interacting with different communities.
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14:34:57 [fantasai]
Bert: That's true
14:35:08 [fantasai]
Bert: He also thought that would help people get to REC faster
14:35:10 [fantasai]
Bert: I'm not so sure of that
14:35:16 [fantasai]
Bert: First is editors
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14:35:27 [fantasai]
Bert: Editors edit in different ways
14:35:35 [fantasai]
Bert: Some are programmers, some are not so technical
14:35:48 [fantasai]
Bert: Accetp that you need a number of tools as number of people edit in different ways.
14:36:02 [fantasai]
Bert: One tool we have in CSS is a post-processor
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14:36:09 [fantasai]
Bert: You can give it a complete document and it does nothing
14:36:20 [fantasai]
Bert: Or a less complete document and it adds things
14:36:26 [fantasai]
Bert: ...
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14:36:35 [fantasai]
Bert: The specs themselves.
14:36:40 [fantasai]
Bert: You can have one big spec for everything
14:36:42 [arun]
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14:36:47 [fantasai]
Bert: Or you can split specs into smaller modules
14:37:02 [fantasai]
Bert: I think multiple smaller specs is better
14:37:11 [fantasai]
Bert: You can get more people interested in given peices of it
14:37:16 [fantasai]
Bert: And people can work in parellel.
14:37:28 [fantasai]
Bert: There aresome disadvantages, too.
14:37:34 [olivier]
[note from #tpac: the newly reborn guidebook will be made public, in order to help contributors in public WGs and IGs too. See the draft @ ]
14:37:39 [fantasai]
Bert: More ambiguities, problems defining their interaction.
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14:37:45 [fantasai]
Bert: Then you need to get to REC.
14:37:48 [fantasai]
Bert: THere are tools
14:37:53 [fantasai]
Bert: But the best tracker is a human
14:38:05 [fantasai]
Bert: Someone who keeps track of all the issues
14:38:06 [IanJ]
Bert: If you have someone in your group called fantasai, then you're in luck.
14:38:15 [fantasai]
Bert: and makes sure they get address
14:38:21 [mauro]
s/THere are tools/There are tools/
14:38:26 [fantasai]
Bert: ... then you have a teleconference with the director and then you're done
14:38:41 [fantasai]
Bert: But if your spec is very popular, then you'll always get issues
14:38:50 [fantasai]
Bert: THe public will not let you go to REC unless you are very strong
14:38:56 [mauro]
s/work in parellel/work in parallel/
14:38:57 [fantasai]
Bert: Then the WG
14:39:03 [IanJ]
14:39:10 [fantasai]
Bert: The WG will keep returning the spec from CR to LC again
14:39:21 [fantasai]
Bert:You have to get out of that cycle somehow. And I haven't found a way to do that yet.
14:39:27 [glazou]
uuuuuh :)
14:39:28 [fantasai]
Bert: So, next implementors
14:39:35 [fantasai]
Bert: Implementor they are dangerous
14:39:37 [IanJ]
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14:39:43 [fantasai]
Bert: They are mentioned in the charter.
14:39:44 [glazou]
14:39:52 [fantasai]
Bert: They think they are very important.
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14:40:10 [MikeSmith]
s/Bert:You/Bert: You/
14:40:13 [fantasai]
Bert: You'll have to get a lot of other people to contradict them before they'll accept a disagreement
14:40:18 [fantasai]
Bert: ... web designers
14:40:27 [fantasai]
Bert: Youc an ask them what they want
14:40:33 [fantasai]
Bert: But they will always ask for more.
14:40:38 [IanJ]
s/Youc/You c
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14:40:40 [fantasai]
Bert: So don't ask them what they want
14:40:49 [IanJ]
s/You c a/You ca/
14:41:00 [fantasai]
Bert: Suggest a feature and ask how they will use it
14:41:04 [fantasai]
Bert: even then it's not so good
14:41:15 [fantasai]
Bert: Very few people can design a good feature
14:41:16 [mauro]
s/Accetp that/Accept that/
14:41:38 [fantasai]
Bert: but maybe 1/100 times you will find someone who has a gooddesign
14:41:43 [fantasai]
Bert: Make him immediately an invited expert
14:41:44 [fantasai]
14:41:53 [fantasai]
you might understand , but not everyboyd else does
14:42:06 [fantasai]
Bert: If you don't get any comments on your spec, then it is not understandable
14:42:06 [mauro]
14:42:15 [fantasai]
Bert: So go back, simplify your spec, and then ask for more comments
14:42:21 [fantasai]
Bert: ... yourself
14:42:33 [IanJ]
s/simplify your spec/throw away half your spec, simplify the rest/
14:42:36 [fantasai]
Bert: Keep repeating to yourself, "More features doesn't make a better spec"
14:42:42 [fantasai]
Bert: smaller specs are better
14:42:50 [fantasai]
Bert: even better is modular, that fits together with other specs
14:43:00 [fantasai]
Bert: even with specs other WGs write
14:43:16 [fantasai]
Bert: The best way to realize ... is to go out of this community
14:43:29 [fantasai]
Bert: Talk to people outside the web community and realize
14:43:38 [fantasai]
Bert: That most people don't understand your spec
14:43:47 [fantasai]
Bert: If you udnerstand that, you can write a good spec
14:43:52 [IanJ]
14:43:57 [fantasai]
Daniel: Daniel Glazman of Disruptive Innovations, co-chair CSSWG
14:44:15 [fantasai]
Daniel: I would like to point out the cool stuff in HTML 5 come from implementors
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14:44:39 [fantasai]
Daniel: Secondly, web designers are our customers. They know what they need better than us. We are geeks, we make things by geeks for geeks, and I don't trust us
14:44:48 [fantasai]
Doug Schpepers
14:44:59 [fantasai]
Doug: Transparency. This is something SVG learned well.
14:45:07 [fantasai]
Doug: We keep our tracker public so people can see what we're working on
14:45:15 [fantasai]
Doug: Responsiveness. Respond to people about their conmments, issues
14:45:39 [fantasai]
Doug: Accountability, and making sure you don't get blocked at LC
14:45:43 [klaus]
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14:45:46 [fantasai]
Doug: Keep track of everything
14:45:57 [fantasai]
Doug: If your grou pis long-lived,
14:46:05 [fantasai]
doug: then you're going to come back to the same disagreement again
14:46:12 [MikeSmith]
s/grou pis/group is/
14:46:20 [fantasai]
Doug: Make sure you understand why you made that decision, and document it
14:46:41 [fantasai]
Doug: New members of the group are going to do archaeology on the past specs and try to figure out why things were done
14:46:44 [fantasai]
Doug: Finally testing
14:46:57 [fantasai]
Doug: It always takes longer than you think, even if you think it'll take a very very long time
14:47:06 [fantasai]
Doug: Mabye not start with tests, but write tests in parallel
14:47:10 [MikeSmith]
s/do archaeology/do "spec archeology"/
14:47:19 [fantasai]
Doug: You dn't want to lose momentum in the group and then need to start writing a test suite
14:47:44 [IanJ]
14:47:49 [IanJ]
14:47:54 [fantasai]
Doug: Getting a spec to REC status is a process that starts with "hm, maybe we should have a tech that does this" and your group's job is to get through the process to REC status
14:47:58 [fantasai]
Dan Connoly
14:48:11 [fantasai]
Dan: Someone once said you can't schedule consensus
14:48:12 [IanJ]
14:48:14 [fantasai]
Dan: It's worth to try
14:48:23 [fantasai]
Dan: Set expectations, have some slack, but set some kind of plans
14:48:24 [MikeSmith]
s/worth to/worth it to/
14:48:48 [fantasai]
Dan: When you get some hairy issue, you can cut that issue or renegotiate
14:48:52 [fantasai]
14:48:58 [fantasai]
Steven Pember ton
14:49:03 [fantasai]
Steven: FIrst issue your spec
14:49:09 [fantasai]
Steve: make sure you have a systme for recording comments
14:49:16 [MikeSmith]
s/Pember ton/Pemberton/
14:49:35 [fantasai]
Steven: I think this is important and these half-dozen systems should be on one page
14:49:39 [fantasai]
Olivier: we have that, let me get you alink
14:49:53 [fantasai]
SteveN: our WG works based on b....
14:50:00 [MikeSmith]
s/alink/a link/
14:50:01 [fantasai]
Steve: It's email-driven so that it retains a paper-trail
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14:50:12 [fantasai]
Steven: integrates with other w3c system
14:50:16 [IanJ]
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14:50:26 [fantasai]
Steven: Best is that it has a button that says "Give me my Disposition of Comments"
14:50:30 [fantasai]
Steven: THat saves so much work
14:50:31 [MikeSmith]
s/b.../Jitterbug, a tool created by Shane McCarron/
14:50:39 [fantasai]
Steven: So you have to go collect your comments
14:50:54 [fantasai]
Steven: Sometimes you have to go solicit them
14:51:08 [fantasai]
Steven: You don't want someon spotting a major problem at PR
14:51:22 [fantasai]
SteveN; Then there are AC reps who don't understand the concept of Last Call
14:51:30 [fantasai]
Steven: We also have DoS (Denial of Specification) attacks
14:51:38 [fantasai]
Steven: people use process to produce hurdles for you
14:51:43 [fantasai]
Steven: So process is friend as well as enemy
14:51:46 [fantasai]
Steven: Triage
14:51:52 [mauro]
s/someon spotting/someone spotting/
14:52:02 [fantasai]
Steven: In battlefield hospitals they have limite dresources
14:52:09 [marcos]
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14:52:10 [IanJ]
s/limite d/limited /
14:52:11 [mauro]
14:52:16 [fantasai]
Steven: They split the wounded: those who will leve without care, thoess who wil die with care, and others
14:52:24 [fantasai]
Steven: W3C process is a battlefield, you have limite dres
14:52:35 [fantasai]
Steven: Before the meeting get someone to split the comments into three classes
14:52:43 [fantasai]
Steve: 1. those clearly right and need no discussion (typically editorial)
14:52:45 [IanJ]
s/limite dres/limited resources/
14:52:46 [MikeSmith]
s/thoess who wil die/those who will die/
14:52:49 [fantasai]
2.: those that are clearly out of scope
14:52:51 [fantasai]
3. the rest
14:53:00 [fantasai]
SteveN:Spend your resources on 3
14:53:06 [fantasai]
Steven: Keep discussion short
14:53:17 [MikeSmith]
s/leve without care/live without care/
14:53:19 [fantasai]
Steven: Discuss issues you think can solve quickly first
14:53:29 [fantasai]
Steven: Try to phave potential solutions ready: avoid designing on the fly
14:53:46 [fantasai]
Steven: Desinging on the fly is ptoential rathole
14:53:49 [mauro]
s/to phave/to have/
14:53:53 [fantasai]
Steven: Try for 5-10 mnute rule
14:54:00 [fantasai]
Steven: IF you don't finish, put aside and try again later
14:54:03 [IanJ]
14:54:09 [fantasai]
Steven: Reminder: you want to reach consensus
14:54:14 [IanJ]
14:54:17 [fantasai]
Steven: Don't ask "does everyone agree with that"
14:54:24 [fantasai]
STeven: ask "any objections?"
14:54:37 [fantasai]
Steven: Listen for magic words "I coudl live with that" and stop as soon as you hear it
14:54:43 [fantasai]
Steven: You should be strict with comments
14:54:45 [IanJ]
14:55:00 [mauro]
s/I coudl live/I could live/
14:55:04 [fantasai]
Steven: Thoes that do not include constructive suggestions do not need to be taken as seriously as those that do.
14:55:10 [fantasai]
Steven: This is advice to those making comments
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14:55:19 [fantasai]
Steven: Attain Consensus
14:55:27 [rahul]
14:55:34 [fantasai]
Steven: Decide on each issue. Try to get a response if you cant. If not, silence == consent
14:55:46 [fantasai]
Steven: Dissenters cannot stop a group's work, but try to avoid it
14:55:53 [fantasai]
Steven: Document the group's decision
14:56:00 [fantasai]
Steven: For non-accepts, document the link to the mail to the persion
14:56:06 [fantasai]
Steven: Document objections,
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14:56:26 [fantasai]
Steven: Formal objections are required by process to propose changes that would remove the objection
14:56:29 [fantasai]
Steven: ...
14:56:34 [fantasai]
Steven: Forms 1.0
14:56:47 [fantasai]
Steven: We had 250 issues. One email had 60 issues, extremely good review
14:56:54 [fantasai]
Steven: It's clear which one swe accepted, which we didnt'
14:56:57 [unl]
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14:57:15 [fantasai]
Dan: I have a postscript
14:57:16 [IanJ]
14:57:24 [IanJ]
"An individual who registers a Formal Objection SHOULD cite technical arguments and propose changes that would remove the Formal Objection; these proposals MAY be vague or incomplete. Formal Objections that do not provide substantive arguments or rationale are unlikely to receive serious consideration by the Director."
14:57:27 [mauro]
s/one swe/one we/
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14:57:49 [fantasai]
Dan: Someone says "I would like an extra feature" sometimes you can skip, especially if you start with requirements
14:58:10 [Schorsch]
join tpchat
14:58:11 [fantasai]
Dan: If you keep a public resolutions list and document rationale, then if someone makes a comment
14:58:30 [fantasai]
Dan: You can point them to that group decision, say we already discussed this and concluded X because of Y
14:58:41 [fantasai]
?: ...
14:58:54 [mauro]
s/join tpchat//
14:58:56 [fantasai]
?: I have a lot less experience than these other people, although we do have a doc that's in REC
14:58:56 [IanJ]
s/?/Dan Appelquist, Vodafone
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14:59:12 [IanJ]
s/?: .../Dan Appelquist/
14:59:20 [fantasai]
Dan: It maybe simplistic to make this recommendation, because in our wg it's abest practice document not a technical spec liek xforms or css
14:59:26 [fantasai]
Dan: It is a fairly targetted effort
14:59:33 [fantasai]
Dan: We are working on a targetted set of reqs
14:59:39 [fantasai]
Dan: Piec eof advice I want to impart
14:59:53 [MikeSmith]
s/abest practice/a best-practice/
14:59:58 [fantasai]
Dan: I've had good experience keeping it short and being extremely stubborn with commenters and with also people in the group
15:00:04 [fantasai]
Dan: in a nice way
15:00:12 [MikeSmith]
s/Piec eof/Piece of/
15:00:12 [rahul]
15:00:20 [fantasai]
Dan: I'm lucky in that we came into the group with set of reqs that were easy to fill. We could see the beginning middel and end here.
15:00:22 [rahul]
s/Piec eof/Piece of/
15:00:31 [fantasai]
Dan: We are going to devolve into an IG and then we're done
15:00:45 [fantasai]
Dan: I would like to examine whether there are other situations in w3c where that could be possible as well
15:00:52 [fantasai]
Dan: I see a lot of efforts that go on and on
15:00:53 [rahul]
15:01:06 [fantasai]
Dan: There's a certain pleasure to finishing something.
15:01:13 [fantasai]
Rotan thanks presenters
15:01:20 [fantasai]
Rotan: Questions?
15:01:40 [fantasai]
Rotan: How many chairs here in this audience?
15:01:51 [fantasai]
Rotan: How many expect a CR or REC within next 12 months
15:01:57 [fantasai]
Rotan: How many expect to be on schedule?
15:02:07 [fantasai]
Chaals: Initial schedule or revised schedule?
15:02:14 [fantasai]
Rotan: Those who realize they're not on schedule
15:02:29 [fantasai]
Rotan: Would you benefit from some mentoring from others?
15:02:34 [fantasai]
Rotan: Nobody wants that?
15:02:39 [fantasai]
?: I think that would be a good iea
15:02:50 [fantasai]
??: Blueberry on top
15:03:00 [unl_]
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15:03:04 [fantasai]
??: Whenever someon suggest ....
15:03:13 [marcos]
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15:03:24 [fantasai]
?: Dan suggested that a lot of recordkeeping gets you out of ...
15:03:43 [olivier]
s/.../11th hour trouble/
15:03:47 [fantasai]
?: Frequently someone would say no, and then ask if you have any new information that would affect the discussion rather than rehashing it
15:03:56 [fantasai]
???: Staff contact for w3c
15:04:04 [fantasai]
Rigo: I'm also one of those hidden tools
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15:04:16 [MikeSmith]
15:04:17 [fantasai]
Rigo: Engineers tend to negotiate a lot around legal issues, and normally they go around in circles
15:04:21 [raman]
q+ to ask that we define success criteria for groups, and that closing of a group not be equated to failure
15:04:24 [amy]
s/??/William Loughborough
15:04:24 [olivier]
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15:04:28 [fantasai]
Rigo: The earlier you call me in, the sooner we can stop
15:04:28 [Ralph]
s/?: Dan/EricP: Dan
15:04:34 [fantasai]
????: I'd like to talk about ratholing
15:04:50 [fantasai]
????: ... is it a good idea for the group to decide it's a rthole, or the chari decide?
15:05:08 [fantasai]
?????: When this happens in my group I start generating proposed resolutions
15:05:09 [MikeSmith]
s/???:/Fredrick Hirsch:/
15:05:24 [MikeSmith]
15:05:28 [fantasai]
?????: And then I keep asking "are there any objections to this proposed resolutions"?
15:05:34 [MikeSmith]
15:05:38 [fantasai]
...: You cannot let this keep going
15:05:57 [fantasai]
DanC: ... dont' kill it ... if you're having a finishing discussion, let it finish
15:05:58 [Schorsch_]
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15:06:09 [fantasai]
Bert: Have a break when you discover a rathole. Usually after the break it's not so important
15:06:23 [fantasai]
?: I have a question for DanC
15:06:32 [olivier]
15:06:34 [fantasai]
?: you've told success stories about sparkle in the past
15:06:37 [olivier]
15:06:37 [MikeSmith]
RobinBerjon: Schedule the ratholes for before lunch.
15:06:40 [fantasai]
IanJ: Give us a story?
15:06:45 [fantasai]
DanC talks reqlly fast about deltas
15:06:52 [ori]
15:07:01 [fantasai]
Danc: There wer series of wgs I was in, I got better at scheduling over time
15:07:01 [glazou]
Bert: or schedule ratholes right before a break
15:07:19 [fantasai]
DanC: Also grddle was a smaller community, not everyone in teh planet was interested in making comments
15:07:30 [fat_tony]
15:07:31 [fantasai]
?: ... wehn your'e sure that the issues are out of scope
15:07:35 [MikeSmith]
s/?/Matt May, Adobe/
15:07:42 [glazou]
s/?/Matt May, Adobe Systems
15:07:51 [fantasai]
?: consensus, closer to unanimity
15:07:55 [glazou]
s/?/Matt May, Adobe Systems
15:08:08 [fantasai]
Matt: It's critical to make sure that you consider these things fully and not making a decision by fiat
15:08:15 [fantasai]
Matt: it'll come back to haunty you
15:08:21 [myakura]
15:08:28 [mscottm]
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15:08:31 [fat_tony]
15:08:32 [fantasai]
SteveN; in some cases there are comments where it's very obviously clear that it's out of scope
15:08:32 [amy]
15:08:45 [fantasai]
Steven: The group has seen it, but it's no use to discuss when you couldn't possibly do that
15:08:46 [dorchard]
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15:09:09 [fantasai]
Matt: ... COmments are entered and closed that will surely be reraised during LC/CR exit process
15:09:21 [fantasai]
DanC: I sue "that's out of scope" less and less.
15:09:24 [MikeSmith]
15:09:30 [fantasai]
DanC: I usually ask them to find it in our charter instead
15:09:35 [olivier]
15:09:37 [MikeSmith]
15:09:39 [fantasai]
Steven: The precious resource is the discussion time
15:09:46 [arun]
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15:09:53 [fantasai]
Robin: I wanted to bounce back on idea of mentoring
15:10:06 [fantasai]
Robin: In my experience. I think W3C doesn't often enough make use of co-chairs
15:10:17 [fantasai]
Robin: Following meeting 3-4 days straight and jetlag .. ti's hard
15:10:28 [fantasai]
Robin: Most participants fall asleep at some point
15:10:32 [chaals]
[Keep *good* minutes of discussion. *Really* *good* minutes.]
15:10:40 [fantasai]
Robin: Can't do that if chairing. Helps to have a co-hciar
15:10:46 [fantasai]
Robin: Second, in terms of timelines
15:10:51 [MikeSmith]
15:11:07 [fantasai]
Robin: I think W3C could be a lot scarier to WGs by threatening if group is not following timeline
15:11:19 [fantasai]
Robin: XBC we had a difficult job, and we finished on time within 1 year
15:11:38 [fantasai]
Robin: We toldpeopel "guys, this has to be finishe din a year or we won't finish"
15:11:58 [Jean-Gui]
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15:11:59 [MikeSmith]
s/XBC/With XBL,/
15:12:04 [fantasai]
?: It was during a telecon where I was falling asleep that I realized I needed to bring in a cochair
15:12:12 [paul]
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15:12:16 [marie]
s/?/Dan Appelquist
15:12:23 [fantasai]
?: We have complimentary co-charirs, we havedifferent scikll that we bring to gether
15:12:28 [MikeSmith]
s/toldpeopel/told people/
15:12:33 [fantasai]
MoZ: I have 2 questions
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15:12:40 [marie]
s/?/Dan Appelquist
15:12:47 [fantasai]
MoZ: I want feedback, are groups with 2 co-chairs more on-time ?
15:12:52 [fantasai]
MoZ: or any other trends
15:12:58 [fantasai]
MoZ: You mentioned the (?)
15:13:12 [fantasai]
MoZ: The fact is I think that there is only 2 point where the AC reps are really targetted by the spec
15:13:19 [fantasai]
MoZ: When it's moving to CR and when it's in PR.
15:13:30 [Ralph]
15:13:44 [fantasai]
moZ: Maybe the mailing list of the chairs could be shared with ACr reps interested in following the proces (???)
15:14:00 [fantasai]
Steven: First question i have no idea. Certainly it keeps people more sane
15:14:06 [dom]
[the chairs@ list is open to any member rep, it is not restricted to WG Chairs]
15:14:13 [fantasai]
Steven: I'm sure that it's not true to say that AC reps don't get to hear about LC announcements
15:14:18 [raman]
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15:14:30 [fantasai]
DanC: You're welcome to subscribe to chairs list. Don't hear about LC as a matter of course
15:14:44 [marie]
s/MoZ/Mohamed Zergaoui
15:14:45 [timbl]
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15:14:45 [fantasai]
TimBL: There's bin some... comemnts, how to triage them, etc
15:14:57 [fantasai]
Tim: How to poitn out how we've thought about it,
15:15:06 [fantasai]
Tim: Commentor obviously has another oppinion
15:15:07 [fat_tony]
15:15:12 [MikeSmith]
s/bin some... comemnts/been some comments/
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15:15:25 [fantasai]
Tim: ... save your spec from being interoperabile with another technology
15:15:34 [fantasai]
Tim: ...find the guy who's realized that you were wrong
15:15:38 [darobin]
MikeSmith: I did mean XBC, not XBL
15:15:47 [fantasai]
Tim: It's useful to point him to where youv'e made the arguent ...
15:16:02 [unl]
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15:16:06 [fantasai]
Tim: Getting to REC is not really the object. THe process is just another tool. We built it because we found without it we didn't do things properly.
15:16:35 [fantasai]
Tim: We didn't have CR, and then we found that people weren't implementing until things got to PR. So we changed the process
15:16:36 [MikeSmith]
s/With XBL,/With XBC,/
15:16:46 [fantasai]
Tim: The objective is not getting to REC. The objective is getting an interoperable web.
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15:17:06 [fantasai]
Tim: .. discussions about process change, there's nothing that IJ likes bette rthan re-editing the process doc
15:17:12 [fantasai]
Tim: THere's no objection to discussion like these
15:17:21 [fantasai]
Tim: ....
15:17:33 [fat_tony]
15:17:37 [IanJ]
s/.../[Tim jokes about people liking process editing]
15:17:39 [fantasai]
Tim: But do, regard the process document as your friend. If it needs fixing, fix it.
15:17:40 [Blaz]
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15:17:52 [fantasai]
Rotah: ...
15:18:02 [dom]
15:18:04 [fantasai]
Rotan: One thing that works for us is Respect for other persons in your group and other points of view.
15:18:17 [fantasai]
Rotan: And now our closing demonstration
15:18:34 [fantasai]
Michael: I apologize for tech problems. My American comp didn't like your French projector
15:18:41 [fantasai]
Michael: This is one tool amongst many.
15:18:57 [fantasai]
Michael: As I mentione,d WCAG is a guidelines for what authors should do not a spec for implementors
15:19:09 [fantasai]
Michael: So we developed a different approach for meeting our CR requirements
15:19:19 [fantasai]
Michael: Maybe contains some useful thoughts for others.
15:19:27 [fantasai]
Michael: Since WCAG is guidelines, an implementation is a website
15:19:34 [fat_tony]
15:19:39 [fantasai]
Michael: We had to test aht each success criteria could be implemented by an author.
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15:20:10 [fantasai]
Michael: Also treated guidelines as a black box. We need to make sure authors can understand the guidelines, not just that they can be followed
15:20:18 [fantasai]
Michael: So we asked peopele to send us information about their implementation
15:20:19 [fat_tony]
15:20:44 [fantasai]
Michael: Surveyed about site size, type of size, which conformance level it was trying to meet, what technologies were being relied on -- need diversity of technologies
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15:20:48 [fantasai]
Michael: That was in one process
15:21:14 [fantasai]
Michael: Ater that we asked them to come back and provide information ...
15:21:30 [fantasai]
Michael: We asked the implementors to actually tell us what have you done with these success criteria
15:21:31 [fat_tony]
15:21:47 [fantasai]
Michael: And they could say whether they match teh criteria or not and to comment on their techniques etc.
15:21:55 [fantasai]
Michael: any problems etc.
15:22:01 [fat_tony]
15:22:06 [fantasai]
Michael: And then we needed to go back and evaluate them
15:22:15 [fantasai]
Michael: Maybe author didn't understand the guideline.
15:22:23 [fantasai]
Michael: We made a team of evaluators
15:22:49 [fantasai]
Michael: They were presented with a page with info from impelemntor and then pass fail n/A options
15:23:02 [fantasai]
Michael: This is guidance for you to provid substantiating data.
15:23:14 [fantasai]
Michael: You evaluate the Pass, then maybe add some comments
15:23:23 [fat_tony]
15:23:27 [fantasai]
Michael: We required a tleast 2 evaluators for each implementation,
15:23:38 [fantasai]
Michael: After getting evals, we would review results
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15:23:56 [fantasai]
Michael: Here 2 evaluators don't agree, so we had to go itnerpret
15:23:57 [fantasai]
15:24:00 [fat_tony]
s/a tleast/at least/
15:24:05 [fantasai]
Michael: FInally we arrived at a set of WG results
15:24:07 [Schorsch_]
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15:24:19 [fantasai]
Michael: THen we coudl track how we're doing
15:24:33 [fat_tony]
15:24:38 [fantasai]
Michael: We need at least 2 for each criteria
15:24:55 [fantasai]
Michael: So again, a very different approach for testing for CR. Useful in some circumstances.
15:24:59 [fat_tony]
15:25:18 [plinss_]
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15:25:19 [IanJ]
scribe: Amy
15:25:19 [fantasai]
ScribeNick: MikeSmith
15:25:54 [fantasai]
ScribeNick: Amy
15:26:23 [marie]
many many thanks again, fantasai
15:26:38 [fantasai]
15:26:46 [fantasai]
my pleasure
15:26:46 [amy]
Rotan: introduces Nick
15:27:07 [unl_]
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15:27:17 [IanJ]
Nick Allott, OMTP CTO
15:27:21 [Zakim]
15:27:22 [amy]
Nick: I'm CTA for MTB, I'm going to try to introduce you to the Bondai initiaitve. how mobile web applications can access devices
15:27:34 [marie]
15:27:43 [marie]
15:27:48 [amy]
... this is real. many companies developing. some brought to market
15:27:55 [Zakim]
15:28:07 [marie]
s/Bondai initiaitve/Bondi Initiative
15:28:12 [amy]
... risk of fragmentation. fragmented security leads to security risks
15:28:43 [ed]
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15:28:49 [amy]
... our weapon of choice is open source. Bondi is explicitly targeting W3C as the organization into which we can feed these
15:29:35 [amy]
... 11 APIs in scope; we accept the need to evolve and competition; all APIs mediated through adaptable security mechanism; in scope can access from @ and widget
15:30:02 [amy]
... re: W3C. starting point: of the 11 APIs we have in scope, 3 can map to W3C technology, the other 8 are up for discussion
15:30:13 [Lachy]
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15:30:14 [amy]
... common sense is that security needs to be considered for all
15:30:44 [amy]
... there's a need to do something quickly. open source important. security is essential. Bondai embracing elements to do work in W3C
15:31:10 [dom]
15:31:17 [amy]
Rotan: no questions? ok
15:31:47 [amy]
Thomas: on these luggage tags we're saying the Web is moving. That says the web moves from desktop to mobile. it also means that the web is moving out of glass bowl. case in point: widgets
15:32:19 [amy]
... what we have are applications on the platform programmed in Java and HTML. They'd be much more boring if they didn't have specific @
15:32:48 [IanJ]
s/@/tools like system() to control your machine/
15:33:05 [amy]
... we have people develop web apps and they have privileges on machines, many end up being unsafe. the functionality is coming. Matt will tell you how your browser will find you.
15:33:12 [unl]
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15:33:22 [amy]
... the camera will take pics, the gps to find you, the phone to make it expensive
15:33:50 [amy]
... we need to take the security very seriously. we have to protect the user from things going wrong and who will control what developers will do
15:33:51 [arun]
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15:34:08 [timbl]
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15:34:14 [amy]
... please give proposals by date; please come to London for event on $date
15:34:16 [IanJ]
tlr: workshop in london 10-11 december; position papers due 30 Oct
15:34:20 [ori]
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15:34:20 [amy]
... contact Dom or Nick
15:34:41 [Schorsch_]
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15:34:43 [amy]
Rotan: questions? no? grab tlr (metaphorically) later
15:35:18 [unl__]
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15:35:35 [CGI634]
what was the web site URL that Thomas listed??
15:35:50 [amy]
Silvia: I'm an invited expert for anything video, 15 year background, I run my own video start up. I'm here as a rep of Mozilla for video accessibility on the web
15:35:53 [dom]
15:36:05 [IanJ]
Silvia Pfeiffer
15:36:27 [amy]
... I'll talk about video on the web. We have video element in HTML 5 which is a step forward. (explains formats of example on the screen)
15:36:31 [dino]
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15:36:37 [amy]
.... we can go much further. we can make video more common.
15:37:00 [IanJ]
wiki-style media annotations
15:37:10 [Al]
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15:37:13 [amy]
... mediawiki example. This is a wiki for video. What is important is to expose the structure and content to the user and server
15:37:30 [Schorsch_]
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15:37:31 [IanJ]
...accessibility possible if we have info on the client side.
15:37:40 [amy]
... we can do deep search (key word) time offset in video
15:37:52 [amy]
... possible if we do time aligned or referenced by name to offset
15:38:08 [pdenning]
ogg theora was mentioned
15:38:09 [smedero]
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15:38:17 [amy]
... working groups looking at different aspect. we still lack exposure
15:38:20 [IanJ]
we have some wgs; but we lack is the ab ility to expose video structure to the user agent
15:38:25 [IanJ]
s/ab ility/ability/
15:38:37 [IanJ]
timed text going in that direction, but not really yet
15:38:57 [amy]
? have you talked to WebApps?
15:39:06 [IanJ]
sylvia: Yes, on the what wg mailing list./
15:39:08 [amy]
Silvia: I"m on WhatWG mailign list and we're discussing there
15:39:15 [IanJ]
15:39:25 [amy]
... we'll do this later, phase 2 stage
15:39:36 [pauld]
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15:39:41 [amy]
... difficult, so many formats and need agreement, will take a long time for a common API
15:39:41 [danbri]
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15:40:02 [amy]
Charles: chair of WebApps. we have talked and we have an ongoing dialogue
15:40:13 [amy]
Paul: have you considered the need for linking in the video
15:40:19 [IanJ]
15:40:23 [amy]
Silvia: this is what the media fragments working group is doing
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15:41:00 [amy]
Jim Allen: User Agent WG, would like to talk to you. Accessibility of video is more than just captions. I'm concerned if whether the player is going to be native to the browser or designers making their own
15:41:06 [amy]
Silvia: we need one standard way
15:41:06 [IanJ]
15:41:27 [amy]
William: I'm william Loughborough
15:41:33 [IanJ]
William Loughborough, resident old geezer (self described!)
15:41:34 [sylvaing]
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15:41:57 [amy]
William: first I'd like to give personal history and shameless name dropping. entered MIT at 16 in 1942, working in the cafeteria encountered Norbert ?. He's the father of computing
15:42:09 [IanJ]
15:42:23 [IanJ]
15:42:31 [amy]
... I cleared away his dishes as he was talking to a colleague and he said "did i eat yet?" now I find myself asking the same questions. I dropped out of MIT, entered the navy as a technician
15:42:51 [amy]
... Dough Englebart was there, when he got out of the navy he got his doctorate, invented the mouse, etc
15:42:58 [Schorsch__]
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15:43:16 [amy]
... I became an itinerate jazz musician and gambler. last 40 years I've been working on medical research and WebAccessibility
15:43:38 [amy]
... ? the inventor of the wiki admitted he had thought of patenting it and we're lucky he didn't
15:44:14 [amy]
... Tim said
15:44:21 [IanJ]
s/?/Ward Cunningham
15:44:53 [amy]
... all of you are the smartest kids in your class, all of you have the capacity to bring the web to it's full potential. As Raman mentioned, the web is humanity interacting through technology
15:45:04 [amy]
... As Dylan said, you don't need a weatherman to know the way the wind blows
15:45:41 [amy]
... self advocacy groups w/ people first in their names, would benefit from an hour of your time
15:46:12 [amy]
... others are called centers for ? living, for when they get out of institutions. also senior centers where you can change lives by giving an hour
15:46:35 [amy]
... enabling the web is not a matter of 10 billion consumers of information but getting 10 billion contributors to the web
15:46:38 [mattmay_]
s/centers for ? living/centers for independent living/
15:47:04 [amy]
... not merely passive consumers. I know a lot of you do this kind of thing but we need to do more
15:47:20 [amy]
... I'm working to make the web not a read only system but something where everyone participates.
15:47:21 [paul]
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15:48:27 [amy]
... at ? they started telephones for pioneers. it now has more than AT&T and it numbers about six to seven hundred thousand. they do things like repairing braille machines. the companies are now a consortium, telecom
15:48:29 [Liam]
[ ]
15:48:52 [amy]
... I urge you to get the places where you work to participate in these kind of things
15:49:18 [IanJ]
Bill: I encourage you all to grow old.
15:50:09 [amy]
... i leave you with a mantra I use "everyone everywhere everything connected" i would also encourage you to grow old because a fews ago Tim was talking about RDF. then in a few months I'd read enough to write the SW primer. it indicates that you can still do mental aerobics even at my age
15:50:18 [amy]
s/fews/ few years
15:50:40 [amy]
? from Deri
15:50:40 [IanJ]
Waseem Akhtar
15:50:48 [IanJ]
s/?/Waseem Akhtar
15:50:56 [gsnedders]
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15:51:02 [dom]
s/Waseem Akhtar/Alexandre Passant/
15:51:03 [amy]
Waseem: XSPARQL, project to bridge XQUERY and SPARQL
15:51:25 [dom]
15:51:42 [sandro]
-> Semantic Web Primer by William Loughborough
15:51:44 [amy]
Alexandre... translating data
15:52:02 [amy]
... XQuery function in SPARQL, can use concat
15:52:15 [amy]
... test value in future expression. can't use it to get output value
15:52:20 [IanJ]
Yay! xpath within rdf!
15:52:21 [amy]
... export vCard to FOAF
15:52:30 [amy]
... translating RDF foaf to xml
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15:53:29 [IanJ]
15:53:35 [amy]
... you can check i'll be interested in talking w/ people and
15:54:24 [amy]
Matt: I'm team contact for a bunch of different things, POWDER and others
15:54:48 [amy]
... I'm trying to get people to join GeoLocation group. we defined mission
15:55:05 [amy]
... new WG, you can check it out
15:55:14 [amy]
... currently we are moving along, we have 2 co-chairs
15:55:32 [amy]
... we started work over the summer 08, API spec well on the way
15:55:48 [amy]
... we're about to get started on primer and test suite. first WG meeting at Vodaphone in December
15:55:59 [amy]
... we're going for first public WG
15:56:09 [amy]
s/WG/working draft
15:56:27 [amy]
... video based on firefox geod program. created by Mozilla labs
15:56:36 [amy]
... (describes video)
15:57:08 [amy]
... yelp data, google maps, shows nearby coffee and tea shops
15:57:47 [karl]
I wonder if there will be guidelines for security and privacy done
15:57:49 [amy]
... this code is easy, it's Javascript API. There's a get-current position, there's a watch position for tracking. the rest is up to you
15:57:53 [amy]
... questions
15:58:10 [amy]
Rotan: Geo Location is one group that will know where it is and where it's going
15:58:24 [amy]
Karl: Karl Dubost, w3C staff. will there be guidelines about security and privacy?
15:58:34 [amy]
Matt: yes, we'll have info in the primer section as well as the API doc
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15:58:55 [amy]
Thomas: that topic is very close to all the device API discussion and is in scope for the Workshop in december
15:59:10 [amy]
Matt: this is why we brought in two chairs. one from providers, one from browsers
15:59:17 [IanJ]
Larry Masinter: there has been extensive work in the IETF about geolocation
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15:59:25 [IanJ]
(and work is ongoing)
15:59:37 [IanJ]
(on privacy and security in particular...please be coordinate)
15:59:40 [amy]
Larry: extensive work in IETF on geolocation. I hope there's more coordination than is apparent
15:59:55 [amy]
Matt: we're just starting up but there will be coordination
16:00:08 [IanJ]
16:00:12 [IanJ]
"IETF GeoPriv Working Group
16:00:12 [IanJ]
The IETF GeoPriv Working Group is working on the format, security/privacy implications, and protocols for exchanging geographic location information.
16:00:12 [IanJ]
16:00:25 [amy]
DanA: Dan Appelquist, Vodaphone. the reason we put forward someone to chair the group, this is one of the most important classes of API
16:00:56 [amy]
... esp if you look at the things coming out on Google, App Store. There's clearly a need in the market for this and it's just as clear as we need to do it in a secure way
16:01:27 [amy]
Thomas: there is coordination between groups
16:01:47 [amy]
Steven: why you should have a website. we heard about Metcalf's law: the value of the network square to the number of nodes
16:02:02 [amy]
.... if you do the math, if you cut network in half, halves the value
16:02:45 [amy]
... important we have one Web. Flickr, etc. there's a danger. by putting a lot of work into a site you commit yourself to it. There's no way of moving your data from one Web 2.0 site to another
16:03:13 [Schorsch__]
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16:03:18 [amy]
... how do you know which to use, what if a better one comes along. or re: social network, you're all probably like me getting bombarded w/ requests to be a friend or work associate
16:03:35 [raman]
is there truly only one WWW? This morning I heard someone dismiss things like Intranets and other things as not part of the Web
16:03:38 [amy]
... or geneology sites. what if the site dies? if it shuts down you lose your date
16:03:53 [amy]
... Google account closed, lost Orkut, lost 4 years of mail
16:04:08 [amy]
... this partitions the web into sub webs and reduces the value of the web
16:04:20 [raman]
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16:04:22 [amy]
this is why you should have your own site. aggregators could come and find info
16:04:33 [raman]
All google services let you download your data -- we call it "take your data with you when you can"
16:04:39 [amy]
... what do we need? machine readable data. you need CSS for meaning. you need to add machine readable data
16:04:49 [raman]
s/you can/you want/
16:05:02 [amy]
... when an aggregator comes to a web site it can see what the data represents
16:05:16 [DanC_lap]
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16:05:22 [amy]
... you could ask to find a place on a map, add data by combing information
16:05:44 [amy]
... rather than putting all your data on someone else's site, put it on yours w/ explicit semantics
16:05:50 [amy]
Rotan: questions?
16:05:59 [amy]
?: what if your own site fails?
16:06:03 [amy]
Rotan: google cache
16:06:13 [amy]
Steven: I'm assuming you have a back up of your data
16:06:29 [amy]
?: if your website fails, all you need is domain name
16:06:35 [Ralph]
-> "Why you should have a website: it's the law!" [Steven Pemberton]
16:06:48 [Kangchan]
think that data interoperability is really important to the end users
16:06:56 [amy]
?: i mean focusing on your own website. so your data is always accessible. so of course I completely agree
16:07:14 [amy]
??: you've said several times moving your data to your own site, how does one do that?
16:07:20 [amy]
Steven: I said that's one of the problems
16:07:25 [stefanoCrosta]
16:07:44 [amy]
Rotan: one more question from Doug. All slides and presentations will be up as part of the minutes, presenters have incuded links etc
16:07:45 [IanJ]
Hi participants: please send your links to w3t-comm if you have not done so already. Thanks!
16:08:10 [amy]
Doug: so the sites are not merely storage sites but authoring tools. certainly there's value in an authoring tool that lets you move info
16:08:13 [raman]
The key bit here is data portability:
16:08:17 [amy]
Steve: let's give a hand to the panel
16:09:00 [Kai]
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16:09:17 [amy]
MikeSmith: one of the current co-chairs for HTML group. Harry Halprin suggested we have an open house to air concerns on work and for us to explain directly what we really are doing. Time tomorrow Thursday 2-2:30pm, Riviera. it seems that there are some groups that might like to make use of the time
16:09:24 [marcos]
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16:09:31 [marie]
many thanks, amy
16:09:31 [amy]
Steve: thanks and thanks for the effort to address concerns of the community
16:09:37 [DanC_lap]
(I hope upcoming TAG nominations are one of the announcements)
16:09:41 [IanJ]
16:09:54 [amy]
... please fill out the WBS, your feedback is really valuable. we use your feedback to plan next one
16:10:15 [amy]
... next TPAC will be in California. we want to get a head-count, it would be useful for us to know how many to expect
16:10:33 [dbaron]
16:10:45 [amy]
... slides are great, I steal from them all the time. Please give us links to your slides. we'd like to use them as a resource
16:10:46 [Rotan]
All the Lightning Talks are on my laptop, and I will be transferring the files to the W3C system very soon.
16:11:53 [amy]
... I really enjoyed the meeting today. I thought the moderators and panelists did a great job. My sense is that though we have feelings on where the web would go, we all can come together to agree that we want one web, not a semantic web, not an XML web - no walled gardens. I hope we're alll a bit more motivated, there's a way we can find a roadmap, peaceful friendly co-existence
16:12:19 [hhalpin]
s/Harry Halprin/Harry Halpin
16:12:23 [paul]
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16:12:31 [amy]
... thanks to William and Raman who reminded us of our person responsibilities to humanity, to do good things in terms of commerce, etc. whether we use the web to serve our local community or the world, I appreciate your efforts
16:12:39 [amy]
DanC: the TAG nominations open 3 November
16:12:55 [amy]
Ian: this may be Steve's last opportunity to chair TPAC so many thanks to him (applause)
16:13:36 [amy]
Steve: for those of you who don't know, I'm moving on to the W3F. Thanks to Nokia for the platinum sponsorship. the moderators and panelists did a wonderful job.
16:13:36 [taki]
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16:13:43 [karl]
clap clap clap
16:13:46 [karl]
clap clap clap
16:13:47 [karl]
clap clap clap
16:13:48 [karl]
clap clap clap
16:13:56 [amy]
... ChrisL chaired the program committee and I'd like to thank Chris and all the members of the committee.
16:14:04 [sylvaing]
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16:14:08 [mauro]
[ applause to Nokia for their generous support as Platinum Sponsor]
16:14:09 [IanJ]
16:14:17 [amy]
... scribing the meeting is difficult, lots of info. let's give a round of applause to scribes, systems, team in general
16:14:24 [marie]
[applause for the scribes!]
16:14:27 [nic1]
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16:14:43 [amy]
... Admin: Amy, Alex, Kana and esp to Coralie and Alex who put this together
16:15:08 [amy]
... thank you all for coming here today and participating. I'll look forward to seeing you all at 7pm in the Iles room for a reception
16:15:12 [rahul]
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16:15:21 [jallan]
thanks to the spell checkers, name correctors, and text fixers
16:15:22 [caribou]
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16:15:27 [Zakim]
16:15:37 [amy]
+1 re: spellcheckers, correctors etc
16:15:42 [AndrewR]
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16:15:51 [Zakim]
16:17:07 [IanJ]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:17:07 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate IanJ
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16:17:27 [Zakim]
16:17:28 [Zakim]
W3C_TP()2:00AM has ended
16:17:28 [IanJ]
rrsagent, set logs public
16:17:29 [Zakim]
Attendees were MeetingRoom, SteveH, +1.857.928.aaaa, Ralph, +87713aabb, markh
16:19:16 [matt]
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16:20:36 [maxf]
thanks so much ted for the audiocast!
16:21:56 [Kai]
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16:28:08 [Ralph]
rrsagent, bye
16:28:08 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items