IRC log of ua on 2008-10-20

Timestamps are in UTC.

06:29:42 [RRSAgent]
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06:29:42 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/10/20-ua-irc
06:30:03 [KFord]
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06:32:41 [Jan]
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06:32:58 [jallan]
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06:33:12 [KFord]
Oh, well good morning/evening to you all.
06:33:37 [KFord]
Sympathies to anyone who was a Red Sox fan since some are from Boston.
06:42:16 [KFord]
If I'm the only one phoning in, don't let me block progress.
06:42:31 [jeanne]
zakim, call room_136
06:42:31 [Zakim]
ok, jeanne; the call is being made
06:42:32 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()2:00AM has now started
06:42:33 [Zakim]
+Room_136
06:44:46 [Jan]
yest it's 8224
06:45:30 [Zakim]
+ +1.425.883.aaaa
06:46:59 [KFord]
zakim +1425883-3343 is kford
06:47:42 [KFord]
Scribe: KFord
06:47:49 [jeanne]
meeting: WAI-UA F2F Day 1
06:48:04 [jallan]
agenda: http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2008/10f2f
06:48:25 [jeanne]
present: Jeanne, Jim, Jan, Kelly and Jim_Bell_(observing)
06:48:57 [jeanne]
zakim, 1.425.883.aaaa is kford
06:48:57 [Zakim]
sorry, jeanne, I do not recognize a party named '1.425.883.aaaa'
06:49:12 [jeanne]
zakim, aaaa is kford
06:49:12 [Zakim]
+kford; got it
06:50:32 [Jim]
Jim has joined #ua
06:51:48 [jallan]
This morning we will be reviewing the Sept 25 editor's draft http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2008/WD-UAAG20-20080925/WD-UAAG20-20080925.html
06:53:06 [jeanne]
The agenda is at http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2008/10f2f
06:53:21 [KFord]
Jallan: Goes over meeting highlights for the day.
06:54:23 [KFord]
JAllan: We welcome your feedback since you are coming from a newperspective, we always welcome input.
06:54:24 [JimB]
JimB has joined #ua
06:56:28 [KFord]
Jeanne: We talked about some organization at dinner. Let's bring folks up to date from our dinner conversations.
06:56:59 [KFord]
sounds good to all.
06:57:25 [KFord]
JAN: goes over existing five principles.
06:57:41 [KFord]
Jim: do those ever conflict?
06:58:07 [KFord]
JAN: The hardest split is between perceive and operate. Let's say you want to operate a button, where do you draw the line between perceive and operate.
06:58:34 [KFord]
JAllan: expands on this and gives example of web applications with a UI inside a UI and so forth.
06:59:18 [KFord]
JAM: We might benefit from being more general like ATAG.
07:00:37 [KFord]
JAN: ATAG has two main points in item 1. Web sections of an authoring tool must follow ATAG. 1.2 non-web based follow software standards for operating system and such.
07:01:01 [KFord]
kford See ATAG guidelines for exact wording.
07:01:29 [KFord]
Jeanne: This isn't really about how accessible but more about operating system conventions.
07:02:12 [KFord]
JAllan: I don't know that you can separate things.
07:02:37 [KFord]
Jim: If you don't honor the operating system conventions you'll have to create your own.
07:03:02 [jeanne]
present+ judy
07:03:16 [jeanne]
chair: Judy and Jim
07:05:02 [KFord]
JAN: OS conventions often apply only to the chrome. Web content you sometimes have more freedom.
07:06:08 [KFord]
JAllan: in the old version trying to use a strategy that separated content from chrome, we ended up duplicating a lot.
07:07:26 [KFord]
JBrewer: Abstract seemed to make sense. Status needs an update.
07:07:53 [KFord]
JBrewer: Introduction needs some work.
07:08:11 [KFord]
JBrewer: The other issues section seemed random.
07:10:07 [KFord]
JBrewer: We don't spend any time orienting people to the document i.e. what are principles, criteria and guidelines and such.
07:10:48 [KFord]
JBrewer: The format itself also lost me a bit. Level labels are all bold. They shouldn't be so the success criteria stand out more.
07:14:26 [KFord]
kford: mentioned three points I raised on list about abstract and intro.
07:14:47 [KFord]
JAllan: Reads kford's points.
07:15:12 [KFord]
JAllan: Why talk about braille printing as an example, strengthen for access.
07:16:20 [KFord]
1.Abstract presently mentions it is important to communicate with assistive technology. Should we mention that it is important to support accessibility APIs where they exist in the intro as well?
07:16:20 [KFord]
2. What's the point of the following sentence in the abstract
07:16:20 [KFord]
Technologies not addressed directly by this document (e.g., technologies for Braille rendering) will be essential to ensuring Web access for some users with disabilities.
07:16:20 [KFord]
I think of a Braille display much like a monitor. It is the job of the assistive technology in the case of the Braille display to determine what's displayed. This sentence just seems kind of out of place.
07:16:22 [KFord]
3. The abstract needs to be strengthened in terms of indicating how web content is important. Right now I'm left with the impression that this is more about user agent user interface.
07:17:57 [KFord]
JAllan: We had some discussions about the fact that there's a lot of screen readerness or AT built in in a subliminal way. Could we strip this out and be more generic about communicating with AT in general.
07:18:19 [KFord]
JAllan: Start with the total standard and if we need specifics, make them specific to a type of user agent.
07:18:43 [KFord]
JBrewer: Concerns me that this might be a reorg.
07:19:11 [KFord]
JAN: I don't think so, this would only be some changes.
07:19:51 [KFord]
JAN: We could import from ATAG snce they have a lot of details on how to read the document.
07:20:26 [KFord]
JBrewer: More comments about intro and gaps.
07:21:01 [KFord]
Topic: Detailed walkthrough of intro
07:22:42 [KFord]
group looks at AU intro.
07:22:51 [KFord]
JBrewer: This is more of what I'd expect.
07:24:23 [jeanne]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/AU/2008/WD-ATAG20-20080929/WD-ATAG20-20080929
07:24:28 [KFord]
Authoring Tool 2.0 http://www.w3.org/TR/ATAG20/
07:27:05 [KFord]
kford group discusses some organizational approaches.
07:28:13 [jeanne]
http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/CR-WCAG20-20080430/
07:28:14 [KFord]
Jeanne: I was looking at WCAG also.
07:30:17 [KFord]
http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/
07:30:45 [KFord]
Jeanne: I think we should be harmonizing with WCAG.
07:33:23 [jeanne]
topic: Organization of Introduction
07:34:05 [KFord]
group looks at existing intro
07:35:47 [KFord]
group talks about installation in intro.
07:43:14 [KFord]
JBrewer: What do we want to say about security? If they do we should get a checkpoint.
07:43:46 [KFord]
Jeanne: Gave example of password example.
07:47:11 [KFord]
JBrewer: Keep the first paragraph on security and ditch the second.
07:51:49 [KFord]
More discussion around security.
07:52:57 [KFord]
Group agrees to keep paragraph 1 under existing security and put it in some overall intro section.
07:54:16 [KFord]
Second paragrph under security to be deleted.
07:54:35 [KFord]
group now talking about user control.
08:00:34 [KFord]
group agrees to delete control of automatic brehavior section
08:03:12 [KFord]
group now discussing configurability.
08:06:04 [KFord]
rrsagent, make minutes
08:06:04 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/20-ua-minutes.html KFord
08:07:41 [jeanne]
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jeanne has joined #ua
08:08:24 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make logs public
08:08:29 [KFord]
rrsagent, make minutes
08:08:29 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/20-ua-minutes.html KFord
08:08:43 [jeanne]
I can get them
08:09:09 [Jim]
Jim has joined #ua
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08:11:09 [jallan]
issue: weave into conceptual intro - Teirs of configurability: wizard, menus, xml listing (firefox)
08:11:11 [KFord]
Group talks about some organizational aspects of tracking conversation.
08:11:13 [trackbot]
Created ISSUE-8 - Weave into conceptual intro - Teirs of configurability: wizard, menus, xml listing (firefox) ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/8/edit .
08:11:24 [KFord]
JAN making edits on the fly.
08:11:29 [KFord]
Jeanne tracking actions.
08:11:39 [KFord]
JAllan keeping list of issues too.
08:12:52 [KFord]
JBrewer talks about creating an understanding document.
08:13:11 [KFord]
JBrewer wonders if we have the resources but thinks that developers would find it helpful.
08:13:49 [KFord]
group now talking about device independence.
08:13:58 [KFord]
JBrewer: Why is this here?
08:13:59 [jeanne]
issue: Save Intro Configurability section for a potential Understanding document
08:13:59 [trackbot]
Created ISSUE-9 - Save Intro Configurability section for a potential Understanding document ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/9/edit .
08:16:25 [KFord]
rrsagent, make minutes
08:16:25 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/20-ua-minutes.html KFord
08:18:19 [KFord]
Action: kford to draft general sentence about device independence for intro.
08:18:19 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - kford
08:18:32 [jeanne]
action: KF to draft a general sentence to summarize the Independence section to be included in the conceptual overview.
08:18:32 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-34 - Draft a general sentence to summarize the Independence section to be included in the conceptual overview. [on Kelly Ford - due 2008-10-27].
08:19:23 [KFord]
group now talking about additional benefits.
08:19:56 [KFord]
JBrewer thinks this should be deleted. Probably need a companion document but should get Education and outreach to write this.
08:20:02 [jeanne]
Action: JB to discuss with Shawn and EO to draft a Benefits of UAAG
08:20:02 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-35 - Discuss with Shawn and EO to draft a Benefits of UAAG [on Judy Brewer - due 2008-10-27].
08:22:33 [KFord]
JBrewer: We just finished intro walk trhough.
08:25:26 [KFord]
Group revisiting beginning discussion to capture specific items.
08:26:22 [KFord]
Talking about which software guidelines we want to reference when we talk about other guidelines.
08:31:23 [KFord]
More talk about intro.
08:31:33 [KFord]
JBrewer: use as much as possible the intro from WCAG.
08:31:41 [KFord]
JBrewer: Look at ATAG.
08:32:43 [KFord]
rrsagent, make minutes
08:32:43 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/20-ua-minutes.html KFord
08:38:06 [Al]
Al has joined #ua
08:45:25 [Zakim]
-kford
08:46:14 [KFord]
The group is on break just now.
08:49:12 [KFord]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2008/10f2f
08:50:01 [Zakim]
+kford
09:10:05 [KFord]
rrsagent, make minutes
09:10:05 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/20-ua-minutes.html KFord
09:11:47 [KFord]
group talking about status and process.
09:13:22 [jeanne]
Topic: Definition of User Agent
09:13:45 [KFord]
Group changing from agenda slightly. Will move through the document and review section by section.
09:14:20 [KFord]
JAN presenting different definitions of user agent.
09:14:38 [KFord]
kford raised concern that we have two definitions.
09:15:14 [KFord]
See various W3C documents for definitions presented by JAN.
09:19:20 [KFord]
kford discussion on what is a user agent.
09:20:04 [KFord]
JBrewer: In WAI we want to ensure our definitions are comprehensive enough to cover anything that could be used on the web.
09:21:19 [KFord]
JBrewer: Is there anyone who wants to keep the two definitions of user agents?
09:23:19 [jeanne]
action: JA to draft a new proposal foro the definition of User Agent that is in harmony with WCAG and ATAG as well as review HTML5 definition of browser.
09:23:20 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-36 - Draft a new proposal foro the definition of User Agent that is in harmony with WCAG and ATAG as well as review HTML5 definition of browser. [on Jim Allan - due 2008-10-27].
09:23:55 [KFord]
rrsagent, make minutes
09:23:55 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/20-ua-minutes.html KFord
09:23:57 [jeanne]
topic: Principle 1
09:24:57 [KFord]
topic: PRINCIPLE 1. Follow applicable specifications and conventions
09:27:24 [jeanne]
change "Observe" to "Comply with"
09:27:33 [KFord]
discussion about environment versus system.
09:28:32 [KFord]
kford looking at which W3C docs have rational and wich don't.
09:29:25 [KFord]
Scribe: Jeanne
09:30:11 [jeanne]
discussion of the need for a rationale. AtAg has a rationale, WCAG doesn't, but WCAG has a separate Understanding document.
09:30:44 [jeanne]
JA: I would rather see a clear statement that doesn't require a separate rationale.
09:30:56 [jallan]
issue: do we need a rationale layer at the guideline (or any level)
09:30:56 [trackbot]
Created ISSUE-11 - Do we need a rationale layer at the guideline (or any level) ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/11/edit .
09:32:34 [jeanne]
JB: Principle 1: Change "Follow" to "Comply with"
09:39:04 [jeanne]
Discussion of changing organization of Guidelines to web-based and non-web based to harmonize with ATAG and simplify the Success Criteria of Principle 1.
09:40:13 [jeanne]
Examples of web-based user agents would be an email client (e.g. gmail) that is a web based user agent for email. YouTube video player would be a web based user agent.
09:42:01 [jeanne]
JR: Web based user agents would be required to conform to WCAG. Non web based user agents would conform to the Operating environment
09:44:56 [jeanne]
KF: it is important that developers document what the choices they make.
09:47:14 [jeanne]
KF: It gives the developer more flexibility in case requirements are outdated.
09:48:41 [mth]
mth has joined #ua
09:50:12 [jallan]
Jan's email compatability http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008OctDec/0014.html
09:50:16 [jeanne]
Issue: Build into the Conformance statement that the developer needs to cite the operating environment features that support the conformance claim (e.g. using the OS audio controls)
09:50:16 [trackbot]
Created ISSUE-12 - Build into the Conformance statement that the developer needs to cite the operating environment features that support the conformance claim (e.g. using the OS audio controls) ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/12/edit .
09:50:22 [Zakim]
+??P10
09:50:33 [jallan]
jan's email testing http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008OctDec/0013.html
09:51:47 [jallan]
zakim, P10 is really Mark_Hakkenin
09:51:47 [Zakim]
sorry, jallan, I do not recognize a party named 'P10'
09:51:58 [jallan]
zakim, ??P10 is really Mark_Hakkenin
09:51:58 [Zakim]
+Mark_Hakkenin; got it
09:52:29 [jeanne]
present+ Mark_Hakkenin
09:52:38 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
09:52:38 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/20-ua-minutes.html jeanne
09:53:58 [jeanne]
topic: Success Criteria for 1.1
09:55:14 [jeanne]
KF: concerns with the list of 1.1.1 -- we should have a common list that we apply to all criteria. Does the list stand the test of time?
09:56:51 [jeanne]
JB: I share concern. Does this list reflect other areas of our document?
09:57:38 [jeanne]
JimBell: Is Product Installation too vague. Does it include updates and software management?
09:58:39 [jeanne]
JR: The ATAG wording requires accessibility conformance.
09:59:43 [jeanne]
JA: Core operating system requirements, like dialog boxes are needed for Assistive Technology. You need to follow the OS.
10:01:05 [jeanne]
JR: We need 1.2 and 1.3. I recommend replacing 1.1 with the ATAG wording of web-based and non-based.
10:01:20 [jeanne]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008OctDec/0013.html
10:04:52 [jeanne]
JS: Suggest splitting the web based and non web based at the Guideline klevel rather than the Principal level.
10:05:08 [shadi]
shadi has joined #ua
10:05:44 [jeanne]
KF: Want to require the User Agent to state how they are compliant and what they are using to be compliant.
10:07:10 [jeanne]
JA: Take Principal A from ATAG and change it to UUAG.
10:09:48 [jeanne]
Lunch Break
10:10:41 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
10:10:41 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/20-ua-minutes.html jeanne
10:11:05 [Zakim]
-kford
10:21:49 [Zakim]
-Mark_Hakkenin
11:27:51 [Zakim]
+kford
11:29:00 [Zakim]
+??P1
11:29:56 [mth]
zakim, ??P1 is really Mark_Hakkinen
11:29:56 [Zakim]
+Mark_Hakkinen; got it
11:39:26 [jeanne]
present+ Andrew_Arch_(observing)
11:39:41 [jeanne]
present+ Mark_Hakkinen
11:39:49 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
11:39:49 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/20-ua-minutes.html jeanne
11:40:49 [jeanne]
present+ Kelly_Ford
11:42:39 [KFord]
JAllan: Decision, we can continue on 1.1 or go back to the agenda and talk about accessible printing and video.
11:43:44 [KFord]
JBrewer: We should at least finish cleanly on 1.1.
11:44:35 [KFord]
JAN summarizing his edits for 1.1.
11:44:39 [Jan]
Jan has joined #ua
11:44:43 [Jan]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2008/WD-UAAG20-20081020/WD-UAAG20-20081020.html
11:45:52 [jeanne]
Topic: Recap of late morning
11:45:55 [KFord]
rrsagent, make minutes
11:45:55 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/20-ua-minutes.html KFord
11:46:32 [KFord]
Group to spend 20 minutes on 1.2 and 1.3.
11:47:39 [jeanne]
Jan has updated the document to add the new 1.1 Guidelines and deleted the former Guideline 1.1.
11:48:27 [Al]
Al has joined #ua
11:48:44 [Al]
Al has joined #ua
11:48:58 [Al]
Al has left #ua
11:50:30 [KFord]
Discussion around where ATAG principle 1 was pulled in. Is this replacing existing principle 1 or 1.1?
11:51:48 [jeanne]
s/or 1.1/or Guideline 1.1
11:53:28 [KFord]
More discussion around if the change becomes too narrow.
11:54:03 [KFord]
now talking about 1.2 support accessibility features.
11:56:11 [jallan]
KFord: focus on clarity. this is not clear
11:56:23 [jallan]
Mark: +1
11:57:36 [andrew]
andrew has joined #ua
12:05:01 [jeanne]
present+ Shadi_A-Z
12:07:07 [KFord]
KFord has left #ua
12:07:28 [jeanne]
Proposes a bare minumum: The user agent implements the features of the technology that support multiple modalities
12:07:33 [KFord]
KFord has joined #ua
12:09:26 [jallan]
device independence
12:09:28 [jallan]
alternative content
12:09:29 [jallan]
explict associations
12:09:31 [jallan]
structure (headings, list, etc. - not div and span)
12:09:32 [jallan]
support assistive technology
12:09:34 [jallan]
known/published accessibility features
12:09:36 [jeanne]
JB: we want to identify and articulate core principles of accessibility, multi-modal principle is good for that but may not be broad enough
12:10:37 [KFord]
rrsagent, make minutes
12:10:37 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/20-ua-minutes.html KFord
12:12:29 [jeanne]
issue: A list of the core principles of the essential accessibility features
12:12:30 [trackbot]
Created ISSUE-13 - A list of the core principles of the essential accessibility features ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/13/edit .
12:19:27 [KFord]
Loads of discussion about accessibility features.
12:19:56 [KFord]
And where definitions come from and what should be in UA.
12:20:25 [KFord]
Discussion was around guideline 1.2.
12:20:45 [KFord]
JAllan read old 1.0 guideline.
12:21:09 [jeanne]
Implement the accessibility featuers of a specification that are identified as such in the specification or as necessary to satisfy a requirement of WCAG
12:21:34 [jeanne]
s/featuers/features
12:22:42 [jeanne]
Implement and cite in the conformance claim the accessibility featuers of a specification that are identified as such in the specification or as necessary to satisfy a requirement of WCAG
12:23:40 [jeanne]
issue: Include in the conformance claim
12:23:40 [trackbot]
Created ISSUE-14 - Include in the conformance claim ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/14/edit .
12:27:13 [KFord]
rrsagent, make minutes
12:27:13 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/20-ua-minutes.html KFord
12:28:31 [KFord]
Group now talking about Mandelieu,
12:29:05 [KFord]
Group now talking about rendering content.
12:30:14 [jeanne]
s/Recap of late morning/Principle 1 continued
12:32:48 [jeanne]
s/Group now talking about Mandelieu, /
12:32:55 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
12:32:55 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/20-ua-minutes.html jeanne
12:33:26 [KFord]
kford Discussion around what content was being talked about. Was this all content or supported content?
12:34:10 [jeanne]
scribe:kFord
12:34:20 [KFord]
Consensus was this was supported content.
12:34:42 [KFord]
JR: Let's think about this. Gave example of how a table linearizer would break this guideline.
12:41:02 [jallan]
from UAAG 1.0 http://www.w3.org/TR/UAAG10/guidelines.html#gl-content-access
12:41:37 [jeanne]
action: JA to take the old text from UAAG 1.0 to rephrase Guideline 1.4
12:41:37 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-37 - Take the old text from UAAG 1.0 to rephrase Guideline 1.4 [on Jim Allan - due 2008-10-27].
12:41:51 [KFord]
rrsagent, make minutes
12:41:51 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/20-ua-minutes.html KFord
12:42:17 [shadi]
shadi has joined #ua
12:43:01 [KFord]
guideline on unhandled content moving to level a.
12:43:29 [KFord]
JBrewer: Revisiting discussion around bolded text.
12:44:18 [KFord]
Group looks at WCAG.
12:44:31 [jeanne]
resolved: Move 1.4.2 (former 1.3.2) to Level A (Consensus reached)\
12:44:46 [jeanne]
s/Consensus reached)\/Consensus reached)\
12:45:34 [KFord]
JBrewer: Could reduce document by 25% by moving level items to parenthetical at end like WCAG.
12:46:24 [KFord]
JBrewer: No need to list all the no criteria at level x for this item with this change.
12:46:26 [jeanne]
action: JR to reformat the success criteria so that the level designation follows the SC in parentheses following the example of WCAG.
12:46:26 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-38 - Reformat the success criteria so that the level designation follows the SC in parentheses following the example of WCAG. [on Jan Richards - due 2008-10-27].
12:47:04 [KFord]
JAllan: Are we happy to move away from principle 1?
12:47:24 [KFord]
group decides to end.
12:47:41 [KFord]
End discussion of princple 1.
12:50:42 [jeanne]
SAZ: Recommend that you use the mapping to the User Needs Analysis?
12:50:52 [KFord]
s/princple/principle
12:50:58 [shadi]
http://www.jtc1access.org/documents/swga_290_PDTR%20Part%201%20User%20Needs%20Summary.zip
12:50:59 [jeanne]
s/ Analysis? / Analysis.
12:51:58 [KFord]
rrsagent, make minutes
12:51:58 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/20-ua-minutes.html KFord
12:52:08 [jeanne]
action: JS to look at the User Needs Analysis document and ensure that we have all the success criteria necessary for UAAG.
12:52:08 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-39 - Look at the User Needs Analysis document and ensure that we have all the success criteria necessary for UAAG. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2008-10-27].
12:52:21 [shadi]
http://www.jtc1access.org/
12:52:48 [jallan]
Topic: Printing from user agent
12:52:57 [jallan]
Printing in a user agent
12:52:59 [jallan]
* open proposal for new success criteria
12:53:01 [jallan]
(http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008AprJun/0072.html)
12:53:02 [jallan]
* Definition of Flow
12:53:03 [KFord]
Topic: Printing
12:53:04 [jallan]
(http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008AprJun/0117.html)
12:57:52 [KFord]
Jallan: When you print from the user agent, the user agent doesn't reflow, you get the right margin cut off.
12:58:27 [KFord]
JBrewer: Remind me why this is an accessibility issue.
12:59:27 [KFord]
JAllan: You could enlarge on the screen and not get what you printed in any relationship to the screen.
12:59:45 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
12:59:45 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/20-ua-minutes.html jeanne
13:00:31 [jeanne]
s/Topic: Printing/
13:00:41 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
13:00:41 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/20-ua-minutes.html jeanne
13:01:03 [jallan]
scribe: Jim
13:01:26 [jallan]
all: agree that printing is an accessibility issue
13:01:42 [jallan]
JR: reviews the proposal.
13:02:19 [jallan]
KF: want to print with the user display changes honored
13:03:20 [jallan]
JA: printing sometimes fails with no user changes, even though it renders fine
13:03:54 [jallan]
JS: that is a repair issue. depends on the author coding.
13:04:44 [jallan]
MH: change print dialog to allow options, print standard, print while honoring user screen changes
13:05:03 [jallan]
... does UA need to provide this dialog?
13:05:21 [jallan]
... e.g. Opera has separate printing dialog
13:05:36 [Jan]
JA: We've agreed printing is access issue
13:05:48 [Jan]
JA: We need to craft success criteria
13:07:24 [jallan]
proposal: Print Scale: If a print from viewport feature is provided,
13:07:26 [jallan]
the user has the option of printing using the viewport's scale settings
13:07:28 [jallan]
such that the user agent should attempt to *passively reflow* the
13:07:29 [jallan]
content into the horizontal dimensions of paper. If passive reflow is
13:07:31 [jallan]
not possible, more than one sheet of paper will be required horizontally.
13:07:40 [jeanne]
scribenick:jallan
13:08:39 [jallan]
definition: *Flow*
13:08:41 [jallan]
The process that fits a stream of text or content blocks into lines in
13:08:43 [jallan]
a two-dimensional visual display. The flow is dictated by the primary
13:08:44 [jallan]
reading direction, the fixed dimension of the display, and the
13:08:46 [jallan]
position of the next line. For example, most Latin-based documents use
13:08:47 [jallan]
a horizontal left-to-right text layout flow in which the display width
13:08:49 [jallan]
is fixed and the next line appears below the previous one. A *reflow*
13:08:50 [jallan]
occurs when changes to the content or the display dimensions
13:08:52 [jallan]
necessitate recalculating this layout. If the display dimensions are
13:08:54 [jallan]
tied to the viewport dimensions, when the user changes the viewport
13:08:55 [jallan]
size a reflow will occur.
13:08:57 [jallan]
1. In *passive (re)flow*, the user agent inserts soft returns as
13:08:58 [jallan]
needed to keep the content blocks within the fixed display dimension,
13:09:00 [jallan]
but does not attempt to rescale or split oversize blocks. This may
13:09:02 [jallan]
result in content blocks overflowing the fixed display dimension.
13:09:03 [jallan]
2. In *active (re)flow", the user agent inserts soft returns as needed
13:09:05 [jallan]
to keep the content blocks within the fixed isplay dimension and also
13:09:06 [jallan]
attempts to rescale or split content blocks to prevent overflow.
13:09:17 [jallan]
JS: having something ugly better than losing information
13:09:24 [jallan]
JB: how to tersify
13:10:48 [jallan]
... to prescriptive. how to generalize, so we know what we want to achieve.
13:11:43 [jallan]
... problem to solve: printing without losing information.
13:13:17 [jallan]
KF: also, want user to be able to customize the size at which information is printed
13:13:26 [jeanne]
propose: Print Preserves Font Sizes: When a print option is available, the user has the ability to customize the size that is printed. in the printed output
13:14:43 [jeanne]
Print Preserves Font Sizes: When a print option is available, the user has the ability to customize the font size that is printed.
13:15:51 [jallan]
JA: also need to honor the print style sheet (that removes navigation, adverts, etc.)
13:17:10 [jallan]
JB: this is not in the JTC1 user requirements for folks with cognitive issues
13:18:15 [jallan]
KF: must say, ok to follow author's print css, but must not lose and 'real' content
13:19:01 [jeanne]
Action: JS to follow up with WCAG group that we recommend a technique where a print stylesheet is created that eliminates the navigation and extraneous parts of the page so that cognitive-disability users have an easy way to print only content.
13:19:01 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-40 - Follow up with WCAG group that we recommend a technique where a print stylesheet is created that eliminates the navigation and extraneous parts of the page so that cognitive-disability users have an easy way to print only content. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2008-10-27].
13:20:35 [jallan]
JA: 3 points--do not lose information, honor author print css, scale font size of print
13:22:34 [Jan]
The user had the ability to customize the size at which information is printed.
13:22:35 [Jan]
Information should never be lost during printing
13:22:37 [Jan]
Print Preserves Font Sizes:
13:22:38 [Jan]
- When a print option is available, the user has the ability to customize the size that is printed in the printed output
13:22:40 [Jan]
- nothing is lost
13:22:41 [Jan]
- limit to one dimension of pages (so one column running down for English)
13:22:42 [andrew]
for the meteorologically curious on the phone - http://riviera.angloinfo.com/weather/
13:22:43 [Jan]
- honour author's print stylesheet
13:22:44 [Jan]
Technique ideas
13:22:46 [Jan]
- provide a "print" view that applies the printer style sheet - actually this might be a cognitive technique
13:22:51 [jeanne]
action: MH to draft a proposal for printing including the 3 concepts --do not lose information, honor author print css, scale font size of print
13:22:51 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-41 - Draft a proposal for printing including the 3 concepts --do not lose information, honor author print css, scale font size of print [on Markku Hakkinen - due 2008-10-27].
13:23:02 [jeanne]
break
13:46:45 [Stevef]
Stevef has joined #ua
13:48:05 [Stevef]
WE ARE LOOKING FOR THE KEY, LOCKED ROOM TO PROTECT COMPUTERS, BE THERE SOON
13:48:20 [Stevef]
Stevef has left #ua
13:50:38 [jeanne]
scribe:jeanne
13:53:52 [jeanne]
topic: Video Requirements
13:54:02 [jeanne]
Proposal from Mark http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008OctDec/att-0023/ua-video.txt
13:56:18 [jeanne]
JS requests that Mark summarize what he wanted to accomplish.
13:57:34 [Jan]
JS: What's diff between player behaviour and media controls?
13:57:35 [jeanne]
MH: What are the areas I need to have access to: controls, properties, alternative content and player behavior.
13:58:59 [jeanne]
MH: the player behavior is not the controls or properties, but the bridge between the controls and the alternative content.
14:01:24 [jeanne]
... is it ok to scatter the control issues thoughtout the guidelines, or should we concentrate the video section?
14:03:10 [jeanne]
JS: If we don't concentrate it, then companies that make video will have to search the entire document and may miss them. We have a special section for Keyboard under Operable.
14:05:18 [jeanne]
AA: These are not casual users for this document. Software developers who have video as a portion of the product will find it discontinuous.
14:06:43 [jallan]
JA: sortable view - a, aa, aaa, vidow, keyboard, timebased media
14:07:17 [jallan]
JA: what is a video... .mov, animated gif, flash, svg application
14:08:11 [jallan]
JR: could use 'time-based media' instead of video like wcag does
14:10:10 [Jan]
MH: In my email...
14:11:27 [Jan]
MH: Reading point 1 in email....
14:11:39 [Jan]
MH: Media controls...
14:12:05 [Jan]
MH: In draft we talk about slowing but not speeding
14:12:18 [Jan]
MH: Trying to see if I missed anything
14:12:27 [jallan]
jallan has joined #ua
14:12:42 [Jan]
KF: We should have speedup right?
14:12:45 [Jan]
MH: Yes
14:12:52 [Jan]
KF: Good I think its essential
14:13:39 [Jan]
MH: Pitch maintenance technology allows audio to follow sped up video
14:14:09 [Jan]
JA: Let's go through Media controls
14:14:36 [Jan]
MH: If we can scale text are we also scaling other parts of visuals.
14:14:56 [Jan]
MH: Comment from another email was about adjusting contrast
14:15:19 [Jan]
MH: And if we are changing contrast we need to be able to reset to defaults
14:16:24 [Jan]
JA: Let's do "lay, Pause, Stop, Skip Forward/Back if media markers are
14:16:25 [Jan]
present, fast forward/rewind, goto start (??end??), playback presentation rate
14:16:27 [Jan]
adjustment (slower/faster/normal ?? rate change may be presets or incremental ??
14:16:28 [Jan]
(related to 3.3.8). "
14:23:24 [jeanne]
jeanne has joined #ua
14:25:20 [jeanne]
MH: these are the functions I pulled out for Media controls including visual media that is not time-based.
14:25:29 [jeanne]
KF: Speed up control is essential.
14:25:38 [jeanne]
MH: Pitch control is also essential so that the speakers voice doesn't become too high-pitched when accelerated.
14:25:47 [jeanne]
KF: the chipmunk effect.
14:25:55 [jeanne]
MH: If the video controls scaling, playback rate or contrast need the ability to reset to the media defaults.
14:26:05 [jeanne]
JA: There are 3 that are related: Navigate multiple media, play/pause/resume, and speed control (that is different from navigation).
14:26:15 [jeanne]
MH: Does navigation need to be able to follow markers for search, chapters, or other markers? Example of Google or YouTube annotation.
14:26:24 [jeanne]
JA: YouTube or Google is an example of a web-based media players -- do we have to make sure that all players have this as a minimum? Or should the basics be ply/pause/resume and the rest are higher level.
14:26:33 [jeanne]
JR: We should call them minimum vs. enhanced the way WCAG does.
14:26:41 [jeanne]
MH: We should have change rate of presentation of multimedia.
14:26:48 [jeanne]
KF: We should also specify ranges. Are there any industry standards?
14:30:07 [jeanne]
Action: MH to draft proposal for 3.3.a Change Rate of Time Based Media
14:30:08 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-42 - Draft proposal for 3.3.a Change Rate of Time Based Media [on Markku Hakkinen - due 2008-10-27].
14:32:22 [Jan]
Jan has joined #ua
14:33:19 [jeanne]
KF: We also need to be able to only download the audio and not the video.
14:33:53 [jeanne]
AA: you also need to be able to split out what tracks you want - language, smell whatever.
14:34:10 [jeanne]
KF: Is this an accessibility issue or just an access issue.
14:34:29 [jeanne]
s/just an access issue. /just an access issue?
14:34:38 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:34:38 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/20-ua-minutes.html jeanne
14:36:00 [jeanne]
example of video where the transcript is last -- the sighted user can start watching quickly, but the non-sighted user has to wait until the end of the download to get the transcript.
14:36:18 [jeanne]
AA: That is the digital divide, but is it accessibility?
14:36:56 [jeanne]
MH: the user agent needs to be able to identify multiple tracks and give the options for the tracks.
14:37:40 [jeanne]
KF: It is an accessibility issue, where these videos are high bandwidth and I already have the overhead of running assistsive technology.
14:38:35 [jeanne]
action: KF to draft a proposal for video section: the option to only download audio and a few use-cases.
14:38:35 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-43 - Draft a proposal for video section: the option to only download audio and a few use-cases. [on Kelly Ford - due 2008-10-27].
14:43:51 [jallan]
JR: you have fixed sizes, author size, and full screen.
14:44:31 [jallan]
... user want video twice the size of the screen. how to scroll
14:45:05 [jallan]
AA: what if user wants to zoom in on only a portion of the video.
14:49:30 [jeanne]
action: JR to draft a proposal video section for 3.3.D Text Scaling.
14:49:31 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-44 - Draft a proposal video section for 3.3.D Text Scaling. [on Jan Richards - due 2008-10-27].
14:51:09 [jeanne]
JA: brightness and contrast is a legitimate accessibility concern - it is in WCAG
14:51:41 [jeanne]
action: JA to draft a success criterion for 3.3.E on brightness and contrast.
14:51:41 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-45 - Draft a success criterion for 3.3.E on brightness and contrast. [on Jim Allan - due 2008-10-27].
14:53:48 [jeanne]
issue: That we add to the Techniques document: media player controls must be keyboard accessibile and available programmatically
14:53:49 [trackbot]
Created ISSUE-15 - That we add to the Techniques document: media player controls must be keyboard accessibile and available programmatically ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/15/edit .
14:57:02 [Zakim]
-kford
14:57:10 [jallan]
The audio track may be all or part of the audio portion presentation (e.g., each instrument may have a track, or each stereo channel may have a track) or the audio portion of a video or other media.
14:58:09 [Zakim]
+kford
14:58:35 [jallan]
above is definition of audio track to include video
15:01:08 [jeanne]
JA: Do we need need a new section of 3.7 that adds captions as text? Or does 3.7 need to be updated to refer to text captions.
15:01:56 [jeanne]
s/ refer to text captions. / refer to text captions?
15:02:34 [jeanne]
JB: If we don't have an Understanding document, we need to have a rationale.
15:03:10 [jeanne]
JA: Then lets mark this as an issue and write a rationale so that 3.7 applies to captions, alternative text and any other text.
15:05:10 [Zakim]
-kford
15:05:24 [jeanne]
action: KF to rewrite 3.7 to make it more specifically include text captions.
15:05:24 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-46 - Rewrite 3.7 to make it more specifically include text captions. [on Kelly Ford - due 2008-10-27].
15:06:13 [Zakim]
+kford
15:07:00 [jeanne]
discussion of the work load of action items
15:07:44 [jeanne]
JB: suggests that written proposals become part of a weekly survey form the way WCAG does it. If no one comments on it, it passes.
15:08:01 [jeanne]
...It dramatically increases the work load.
15:09:44 [jeanne]
MH: 3.3.F is Time based Media Properties. Where does this fit with other parts of the guidelines.
15:09:59 [jeanne]
JR: I don't think this is already in the success criteria.
15:10:31 [Jan]
MH: Wondering about WGBH players...with CC in corner...
15:10:53 [Jan]
MH: Is that an acceptable way of showiing presence of caption tracks
15:11:46 [Jan]
JA: In mdia players, duration and timepoint etc are laready known...
15:12:09 [Jan]
JA: Is copyright info etc. req if mainstream users don't?
15:12:22 [Jan]
MH: Sometimes that info is rendered in some status area
15:12:35 [Jan]
MH: So it needs to be made accessible to ATs
15:14:36 [jeanne]
MH: If the progress is a slider control, there needs to be a way to communicate that progress to AT.
15:15:27 [jeanne]
JA: If it is embedded, then WCAG says that the information has to be communicated to the user. IF it is a Flash player, then that also has to be exposed to the AT.
15:16:06 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:16:06 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/20-ua-minutes.html jeanne
15:17:22 [jeanne]
scribenick: jan
15:17:34 [jeanne]
scribenick:jeanne
15:20:32 [jeanne]
Alternative Content Stack
15:21:09 [jeanne]
JA: to keep with WCAG, it should say time-based media.
15:22:38 [jeanne]
JA: Other than this, did you (Mark H) see anything else that needed to be changed or update?
15:22:43 [jeanne]
MH: No.
15:23:24 [jeanne]
JA: We don't specifically address other language tracks in 3.3.2. Is this an internationalization issue, or an accessibility issue.
15:24:54 [jeanne]
Because we are saying it is available programmatically, I think we are covered for other languages.
15:26:36 [jeanne]
Player Behavior
15:27:42 [jeanne]
JA: anything that is a option while playing doesn't become unavailable when the video is paused.
15:28:12 [jeanne]
Based on Mark's Proposal #4 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008OctDec/att-0023/ua-video.txt
15:28:37 [Zakim]
-Mark_Hakkinen
15:29:16 [Zakim]
+??P1
15:29:16 [jeanne]
...the reason that one would want to pause might be to review past material on AT or to change an option such as brightness or contradst.
15:29:42 [jeanne]
zakim, ??P1 is really MarkH
15:29:42 [Zakim]
+MarkH; got it
15:31:02 [jeanne]
JR: Pausing of media is not a SC, so we need to create a new SC.
15:31:44 [jeanne]
action: JS to draft a new success criterion for 3.3.F about revealing state info when paused.
15:31:44 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-47 - Draft a new success criterion for 3.3.F about revealing state info when paused. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2008-10-27].
15:32:05 [Zakim]
-kford
15:33:58 [jeanne]
combined 3.3.2 and 3.3.3 making audio and video time-based media.
15:36:10 [jallan]
Issues with hot spots in time-based media
15:36:34 [jallan]
.... discoverablility / informing the user of existance
15:36:46 [jallan]
... navigating to the hot spot
15:37:05 [jallan]
... firing the hot spot
15:38:06 [jeanne]
scribenick: jallan
15:39:15 [jallan]
JR: extract an actionable list of all hotspots, or tab througth them and move time pointer with it
15:39:26 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:39:26 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/20-ua-minutes.html jeanne
15:42:10 [mth]
http://www.w3.org/TR/SMIL-access/
15:44:41 [Zakim]
-Room_136
15:44:46 [jeanne]
break for dinner
15:44:52 [Zakim]
-MarkH
15:44:54 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()2:00AM has ended
15:44:55 [Zakim]
Attendees were Room_136, +1.425.883.aaaa, kford, Mark_Hakkenin, Mark_Hakkinen, MarkH
15:48:40 [jeanne]
scribeoption:-final
15:48:49 [jeanne]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:48:49 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/20-ua-minutes.html jeanne
15:49:22 [jeanne]
rrsagent, bye
15:49:22 [RRSAgent]
I see 15 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/20-ua-actions.rdf :
15:49:22 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: kford to draft general sentence about device independence for intro. [1]
15:49:22 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/20-ua-irc#T08-18-19
15:49:22 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: KF to draft a general sentence to summarize the Independence section to be included in the conceptual overview. [2]
15:49:22 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/20-ua-irc#T08-18-32
15:49:22 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JB to discuss with Shawn and EO to draft a Benefits of UAAG [3]
15:49:22 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/20-ua-irc#T08-20-02
15:49:22 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JA to draft a new proposal foro the definition of User Agent that is in harmony with WCAG and ATAG as well as review HTML5 definition of browser. [4]
15:49:22 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/20-ua-irc#T09-23-19
15:49:22 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JA to take the old text from UAAG 1.0 to rephrase Guideline 1.4 [5]
15:49:22 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/20-ua-irc#T12-41-37
15:49:22 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JR to reformat the success criteria so that the level designation follows the SC in parentheses following the example of WCAG. [6]
15:49:22 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/20-ua-irc#T12-46-26
15:49:22 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JS to look at the User Needs Analysis document and ensure that we have all the success criteria necessary for UAAG. [7]
15:49:22 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/20-ua-irc#T12-52-08
15:49:22 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JS to follow up with WCAG group that we recommend a technique where a print stylesheet is created that eliminates the navigation and extraneous parts of the page so that cognitive-disability users have an easy way to print only content. [8]
15:49:22 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/20-ua-irc#T13-19-01
15:49:22 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: MH to draft a proposal for printing including the 3 concepts --do not lose information, honor author print css, scale font size of print [9]
15:49:22 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/20-ua-irc#T13-22-51
15:49:22 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: MH to draft proposal for 3.3.a Change Rate of Time Based Media [10]
15:49:22 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/20-ua-irc#T14-30-07
15:49:22 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: KF to draft a proposal for video section: the option to only download audio and a few use-cases. [11]
15:49:22 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/20-ua-irc#T14-38-35
15:49:22 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JR to draft a proposal video section for 3.3.D Text Scaling. [12]
15:49:22 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/20-ua-irc#T14-49-30
15:49:22 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JA to draft a success criterion for 3.3.E on brightness and contrast. [13]
15:49:22 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/20-ua-irc#T14-51-41
15:49:22 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: KF to rewrite 3.7 to make it more specifically include text captions. [14]
15:49:22 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/20-ua-irc#T15-05-24
15:49:22 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JS to draft a new success criterion for 3.3.F about revealing state info when paused. [15]
15:49:22 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/20-ua-irc#T15-31-44