06:27:29 RRSAgent has joined #forms 06:27:29 logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/10/20-forms-irc 06:27:52 rrsagent, make log public 06:28:57 hi john ... good morning 06:29:08 good morning 06:31:36 zakim, code? 06:31:36 the conference code is 36767 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Charlie 06:35:33 unl has joined #forms 06:38:08 I have the webcon software installed; during xml sec visit, would you be able to project for me please? 06:38:35 s/I have/Charlie, I have 06:44:00 k 06:54:22 HTML_Forms()3:00AM has now started 06:54:30 + +49.297.aaaa 06:55:30 +John_Boyer 06:55:34 - +49.297.aaaa 06:55:35 + +49.297.aaaa 06:58:20 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Oct/0035.html 06:58:34 John_Boyer has changed the topic to: FtF Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Oct/0035.html 07:00:56 Steven has joined #forms 07:02:23 Hi from Cannes/Mandelieu 07:02:28 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/XForms_Future_Features 07:02:43 rrsagent, pointer? 07:02:43 See http://www.w3.org/2008/10/20-forms-irc#T07-02-43 07:03:39 Meeting: Forms WG FtF, Cannes/Mandelieu Day 1 07:03:45 Chair: John 07:03:58 rrsagent, make minutes 07:03:58 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/20-forms-minutes.html Steven 07:05:23 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Oct/0035.html 07:06:52 wellsk has joined #forms 07:07:04 Present: Uli, Raman, Charlie, Nick, Steven, Roland, John (remote), Keith (remote) 07:07:24 zakim, what is the conference code? 07:07:24 the conference code is 36767 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), wellsk 07:07:25 nick has joined #forms 07:07:45 rrsagent, make minutes 07:07:45 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/20-forms-minutes.html Steven 07:07:49 John will just do overview of agenda quickly, then we'll need a scribe for submission discussion 07:08:24 +wellsk 07:09:10 SCribe: Steven 07:09:15 scribe: Steven 07:11:14 John: Timing is 9 to 5, all Ok with that? 07:11:17 Steven: Sure 07:11:44 Roger has joined #forms 07:12:07 Present+Rogelio 07:12:42 Topic: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Oct/0035.html 07:13:10 Topic: Agenda overview 07:13:35 John: First submission, then a coffe break, then a meeting with XML Sec people 07:13:54 ... they have a telecon set up 07:14:08 ... and there are some slides if necessary 07:14:22 ... I will be talking about integrating XML Signatures with XForms 07:14:55 ... also covering ODF+XForms 07:15:08 Keith: Same conference code? 07:15:20 John: No, let me find it 07:15:39 ... their room is bigger, so that is why we are going to them and not v.v. 07:16:09 http://www.w3.org/Guide/1998/08/teleconference-calendar#s_3328 07:16:24 Steven: Code is XMLSEC 07:16:37 John: 12.30 to 2 is lunch 07:16:54 ... with room with being France 07:16:57 Roland_ has joined #forms 07:17:20 ... 2 to 3 is XML Events 07:17:33 ... then tea break 3-3.30 07:17:58 Charlie: AT 4 I have to go to Multimodal 07:18:14 John: And at the end of day the UI layer 07:18:20 ... extending to tomorrow 07:18:33 ... then 2 sessions of Webforms/a 07:18:47 ... then future meetings 07:19:37 John: AOB? 07:20:12 Charlie: The panel on Wednesday? 07:20:25 Steven: Mark said he'd be willing/able to replace John on the panel 07:20:47 Present+Philippe Le Hegaret 07:21:49 John: Shall we discuss the panel in the 2-3 slot tomorrow? 07:22:22 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/XForms_Future_Features 07:22:43 Topic: Submission module 07:23:23 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/XForms_Future_Features#head-be04577d9d30bd43068682d94500a856092896b0 07:24:16 John: [Overviews module structure] 07:24:26 John: CHarlie is driving an implementation of this stuff 07:24:31 s/CH/Ch/ 07:28:38 John: So we're doing submission today 07:28:54 John: Uli and I own this module 07:29:04 ... some of the bullet points need some clarification 07:30:06 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/XForms_Future_Features 07:31:01 http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/XForms_Future_Features#head-f707002d9a6fe056325ffcd24c1b157ebe4bad68 07:31:09 John: The first bullet point says we need an event for submission result received 07:32:33 ... and it would be better if the end of submission event had a default action to process the results of the submission 07:33:10 Steven: Yes an event is much better 07:33:26 John: The submission module wil define what is in chapter 11 at present 07:35:07 John: Then we have elements and attributes, but I'm unsure about the driver adding the ref and bind stuff 07:36:39 Steven: Is it the aim of this module to be usable by other specs such as XHTML or Voice? 07:37:29 John: Yes, but we have to then work out how it can be independent of the data island module 07:37:52 Steven: Last week we said that data might come from other places than the instance 07:38:02 Charlie: In the future yes, not this version 07:40:29 Steven: As long as it looks like XML to the XPath selectors, we don't need to care 07:43:59 rrsagent, make minutes 07:43:59 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/20-forms-minutes.html John_Boyer 07:45:01 irc has dropped everyone, steven is starting a text file for minutes 07:45:19 s/everyone/everyone at TPAC 07:55:48 nick has joined #forms 07:57:04 Steven has joined #forms 07:57:37 unl has joined #forms 07:58:03 [network breaks] 07:58:03 07:58:03 Raman: Why bother, just say that some XPath expressions don't have any effect with Jason. 07:58:03 07:58:03 John: Yes, just have a profile of XPath 07:58:04 ... so the question is who adds the single node bindings? The module or the driver. 07:58:06 07:58:08 Charlie: It seems to be reasonable to let the submission module do it. 07:58:10 07:58:12 Roland: Well, we should ask from the viewpoint of the other users of the module 07:58:14 07:58:16 [Plh leaves] 07:58:18 07:58:20 Charlie: ANd different expression languages? Not sure. 07:58:22 07:58:24 Raman: Sounds like a bad idea. Rat hole. 07:58:26 ... every application is using XPath now already 07:58:28 07:58:30 Nick: Yes, but JQuery is using CSS3 selectors 07:58:32 07:58:35 Raman: But it is a disaster. 07:58:36 07:58:38 John: The issue of the expression language is not a submission issue; we just use the binding attributes. The driver will decide which expression language. 07:58:42 07:58:43 Uli: Having started on the subnission module, I have difficulty to understand how to get the data to submission if we factor it out. 07:58:46 07:58:48 John: I agree. 07:58:50 07:58:56 rrsagent, make minutes 07:58:56 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/20-forms-minutes.html Steven 07:58:58 Roland_ has joined #forms 07:59:02 rrsagent, make minutes 07:59:02 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/20-forms-minutes.html Steven 07:59:08 rrsagent, pointer? 07:59:08 See http://www.w3.org/2008/10/20-forms-irc#T07-59-08 07:59:33 Charlie has joined #forms 08:01:54 [network returns] 08:03:01 John: And that covers all the attributes in the second bullet point 08:03:16 "XForms driver module would define attributes ref, bind, validate, relevant, replace, target, instance" 08:03:30 Uli: I would like to see it factored out, I just don't know how to do it 08:03:59 John: Add it to the future requirements, or try to acheive it now? 08:04:07 s/chei/chie/ 08:04:27 John: Consider @relevant 08:04:34 ... that is harder than @validate 08:04:59 ... @relevant is about relevance pruning and is by default true 08:05:16 ... so the data will by default be prined 08:05:25 s/prin/prun/ 08:06:01 Steven: But relevance has to be optional 08:06:17 ... for apps that only load data, mess with it, and submit it back 08:06:44 John: Well, data has to be prunable in practice 08:06:59 ... the context for the submit event needs to say where the data is 08:08:44 Steven: Charlie, any implementation experience? 08:08:52 CHarlie: No, we're tied to instance 08:08:58 s/CH/Ch/ 08:09:24 John: WIthin ubiquity, for the insert action, it was fairly easy to do via event context 08:09:34 s/WI/Wi/ 08:09:55 Nick: There is a danger that you generate copies of the data 08:10:02 John: Yes 08:10:36 Steven: I don't understand 08:10:53 Nick: If relevance processing happens outside of he submission module 08:12:03 ... then it has to copy the data to return a version of the serialisable data 08:12:59 Steven: So currently it is serialization that knows about relevance 08:13:09 John: Yes 08:13:32 Raman: Can't the instance contain a relevant bit? 08:14:03 Nick: But then if others use it, they may not have relevance 08:14:20 Raman: Well, we may be overdesigning here, designing something that doesn't exist 08:15:18 John: Yes, there is a base implementation that serializes everything, and a specialization, or subclass does the relevance 08:15:52 Uli: But we have validation too that sits between pruning and serialization 08:17:10 Roland: Validation is at the end of the pipeline before serialization 08:17:19 ... submission doesn't need to know about relevance 08:17:43 The xforms-submit event should just have additional context info. Specifically, the submit-node and the target-node 08:18:12 This will avoid making copies of instance data by xforms driver, but generalize submission to applications beyond just xforms. 08:18:29 Roland: The serializer doesn't need to know whether it is relevant, just whether it should be serialized 08:18:32 Such applications can just configure the xforms-submit event rather than using binding attributes 08:18:41 @John: What would target-node contain in case of replace="all"? 08:18:56 "document()" ??? 08:18:58 nothing, that's for replace instance 08:19:04 rrsagent, make minutes 08:19:04 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/20-forms-minutes.html Steven 08:20:33 John: Maybe the xforms-submit event can supply context information, and the new event (submit received) could have context information about where to put the result etc. 08:22:12 ... wherever we see "the driver has to do that" we should look again 08:22:33 Steven: But isn't it a question of the difference between syntax and semantics 08:23:10 ... the driver supplies the attributes to do relevance pruning, and the submission module either does relevance pruning or not depending on whether the hooks have been filled 08:25:27 Raman: our relevance model is a bit tangled at the moment 08:26:15 John: [explains problem area] 08:26:25 Raman": Is that a problem with Schema or with relevance? 08:26:38 s/"// 08:27:02 Raman: We shouldn't burden our model with that if it is 08:27:21 John: The problem is with modules not knowing about each other 08:28:10 John: I am not convinced it is an XML Schema problem... oh yes, it is, you're right 08:28:26 [scribe hopes John will type in what his problem was] 08:29:30 John: Schema doesn't understand relevance, so we have to do it, and that is the weak link 08:30:43 Raman: Since it is our design, by the time a form has been instantiated, you could prune earlier than we do it 08:30:48 John: GOod point 08:30:52 s/GO/Go/ 08:31:05 ... relevance itself is not powerful enough 08:31:16 ... it is decorating the nodes rather than insewrting or delting them 08:31:25 s/wrt/rt/ 08:31:32 Raman: Water under the bridge really 08:33:04 John: I think Uli and I have enough information to continue 08:33:15 ... next session in room exec 6 08:34:39 -John_Boyer 08:34:40 -wellsk 08:34:40 - +49.297.aaaa 08:34:40 HTML_Forms()3:00AM has ended 08:34:42 Attendees were +49.297.aaaa, John_Boyer, wellsk 08:37:55 rrsagent, make minutes 08:37:55 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/20-forms-minutes.html John_Boyer 08:52:28 John_Boyer has left #forms 09:06:31 Topic: XML Security 09:07:52 nick has joined #forms 09:09:24 John has slide deck titled "XML Signatures for Interactive XML Documents" 09:10:42 Steeeven has joined #forms 09:10:57 unl has joined #forms 09:11:17 we are in #xmlsec 09:13:19 nick has joined #forms 09:16:01 John: is giving overview of XML Signature 09:16:30 ... digitally sign multiple resources 09:16:52 ... including xforms data 09:17:08 ... fingerprint fro each resource 09:17:17 s/fro/for/ 09:17:43 ... suthenicate refs of resources 09:18:09 s/suthenicate/authenticate/ 09:19:34 ... final hash in , includes content 09:20:19 ... metadata of signature in 09:20:51 ... sign any kind of data 09:21:34 ... each resource covered by Reference, URLs can be used for location of content 09:22:15 Slides at http://www.w3.org/2008/xmlsec/f2f-2008-10-20/xforms/XMLSignatures.TPAC2008.pdf 09:24:16 ... working offline, detached, enveloped, enveloping signatures 09:26:21 Ramen: question about agreeing on something that you didn't really agree with.. 09:26:41 John: answers with validation step 09:27:12 ... reproduce signature to what was signed 09:27:49 Zakim has left #forms 09:28:11 ... cached copies of URIs, ODF docs (1) standalone xml file, (2) zip file with multiple resources 09:28:48 ... URIs relative to zip file 09:31:04 ... Signing ODF zip files 09:31:42 ... caching capabilitiy 09:32:25 enveloped can talk to others within zip file 09:32:49 detached sigs can not looki into other resources in zip file 09:33:01 s/looki/look/ 09:33:29 ... ODF -- relative URIS within ODF zip file 09:33:48 detached: not in ODF file 09:34:16 enveloping: content is inside XML signature 09:34:31 enveloped: contains signature 09:35:10 enveloped -- empty URI attribute 09:35:56 XML signature within xml instance 09:36:01 in xforms 09:36:34 want to sign the entire content not just instance data 09:36:45 so uses no URI attribute 09:37:00 Intro to XForms 09:37:55 showing XForms markup 09:39:02 xforms model 09:39:15 xforms instance 09:40:19 this is where xml dig sig will go too -- in the instance data 09:40:58 User data from UI goes to instance data 09:41:56 question about calculated attr 09:42:06 "what is it doing" 09:42:40 calculates node c from inputs updated by end user 09:45:33 John brings up @resource in instance element 09:46:10 during runtime -- separate dom 09:46:31 nick has joined #forms 09:47:10 xml signature will live in the instance data 09:50:15 URL resolver, takes out the instance data within same document 09:50:58 odf 09:51:26 when standalone doc 09:52:43 odf: three levels: model, form controls, presentation level 09:54:53 shows element within instance within model 09:55:10 static vs interactive docs 09:59:06 URI="" indicates root of document 09:59:54 structured data(xforms is good at this) and unstructured data (ODF is good at this) 10:00:12 dsig to point to unstructured data 10:01:04 signing only the data, without signing the resources in creating the data (form) -- this would be useless for repudiation 10:02:20 need to be able to reference the containing document 10:03:42 when are you signing, what are you signing? If sign the instance data within document and then signing document, does this mean you sign the instance data twice? 10:04:03 sign the current state of the document 10:05:20 keith, wellsk? Seen channel #xmlsec? 10:05:28 question: do you have to sign the processing steps for xforms? 10:11:17 You can have a problem with an xf:output with a calculate that uses extension functions 10:13:41 :-) on staying awake 10:19:07 discussion revolves around instance data entered by user, saving context of data, serialization of data 10:20:07 wrinkle: sign entire doc + instance data, resolve ref and digest of signed info 10:20:23 generate signature and save to disk 10:20:40 account for fact signature value is changed 10:21:42 envelope transform "here()" function (data dom not document dom) -- no access to "here()" function 10:21:59 xforms would have to use dsig filter 10:22:13 add/remove pieces from digest 10:22:34 and then adding something new to document after the document has been signed 10:22:41 invalidates the signature 10:23:29 creates a signature to a document, after the document has been signed 10:24:12 delete signature from document being referenced 10:24:29 omit signature being generated 10:24:52 here() is the wrong document 10:25:32 relative URI references would be broken in the saved signature case 10:27:47 repeated content in xforms, creates problems for which signature is being omitted 10:30:46 xml dig sig spec 4.3.3.1 10:31:21 transfom wording, also ref 4.3.3.2 10:59:30 John_Boyer has joined #forms 11:12:29 Roger has joined #forms 11:59:46 Zakim has joined #forms 11:59:54 zakim, this will be forms 11:59:54 ok, John_Boyer; I see HTML_Forms()3:00AM scheduled to start 299 minutes ago 12:00:47 HTML_Forms()3:00AM has now started 12:00:54 +wellsk 12:02:25 +John_Boyer 12:02:44 zakim got confused again and wouldn't let me on 12:03:28 Roland_ has joined #forms 12:03:59 nick has joined #forms 12:04:24 nick has joined #forms 12:04:56 Charlie has joined #forms 12:05:42 unl has joined #forms 12:08:28 zakim, code? 12:08:28 the conference code is 36767 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), nick 12:09:46 Steven has joined #forms 12:10:48 hi 12:10:53 trying to redial 12:11:31 + +03349297aaaa 12:11:32 yo! 12:11:43 zakim, who is here? 12:11:43 On the phone I see wellsk, John_Boyer, +03349297aaaa 12:11:44 On IRC I see Steven, unl, Charlie, nick, Roland_, Zakim, Roger, John_Boyer, wellsk, RRSAgent, trackbot 12:12:01 zakim, aaaa is Cannes 12:12:01 +Cannes; got it 12:12:51 Topic: XML Events 2 12:13:49 markbirbeck has joined #forms 12:13:57 hi mark 12:13:59 bonjour! 12:14:03 we're on zakim too 12:14:08 usual xforms channel 12:14:23 oh you speak french as well 12:14:29 bien sur. :) 12:14:37 tiens tiens 12:14:51 A little tricky to get to a phone...but I can at a push. 12:15:03 What would you like from me? :) 12:15:30 there will be a discussion of XML Events 2, which you may want to join 12:15:58 wenow 12:16:06 s/wenow// 12:16:11 Topic: XML Events 2 12:16:21 latest editor draft : http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xml-events-20080625/ 12:16:27 ShaneM has joined #forms 12:16:53 zakim, code? 12:16:53 the conference code is 36767 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Steven 12:16:56 Scribe: Nick 12:18:28 +??P11 12:18:31 zakim, i am ? 12:18:31 +markbirbeck; got it 12:19:40 the better picture is at http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Events/images/eventflow.png 12:19:52 +ShaneM 12:20:06 and even in svg http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Events/images/eventflow.svg 12:20:15 hi shane :) 12:22:04 Roland: XML events 2 was intended to be incorporated in XForms 12:22:19 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Sep/0029 12:23:17 Roland: We will start with issues that Nick raised 12:24:13 Roland: Events attribute group, taget: there is already an attribute in taget in XHTML 2 12:24:24 s/taget/target/ 12:24:45 .. that is why we changed it to targetid 12:24:52 s/taget/target/ 12:25:39 I would note that the XHTML Target Attribute Module only puts the target attribute on some elements... 12:26:09 Nick: We can support target and targetid and deprecate target 12:26:51 Roland: From XML events 2 you can incorporate them in your namespace 12:27:54 Uli: I just don't like it targetid the id isn't adding something 12:27:55 http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/abstract_modules.html#s_targetmodule 12:28:29 ShaneM: target is not a global attribute 12:28:58 ShaneM: target in XML Events is a global attribute 12:29:41 Roland: While and if are only allowed on action, lets see if target is allowed everywhere 12:30:10 MarkB: Target in XML events 2 is allowed on all elements, you can specify the handler 12:30:54 Roland: Would there will be a problem with using target in XML events 2 if there is no collision 12:31:14 ShaneM: is an important collision 12:31:39 John: Would you make a an handler? 12:31:58 12:31:59 MarkB: You can specify a handler using an handler attribute 12:32:12 'a' is not a handler, here 12:32:53 John: Why would an 'a' want to say that? 12:33:10 Steven: 'That is not your business' ;) 12:33:50 MarkB: (Describes his example, that he posted in the irc) 12:34:02 Roland: So we can call it target 12:34:44 http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-access/ 12:35:00 @targetrole & @targetid. 12:35:09 MarkB: Explain that targetid is a could name, but acces uses it with a list of id's 12:35:10 ev:eventtarget 12:35:21 +1 12:36:17 Raman: attarget 12:37:04 Steven: DOM events uses eventtarget 12:37:28 MarkB: Do we need this? 12:37:50 12:37:58 s/:/"/ 12:37:59 MarkB: Is there alternative markup? 12:38:23 Steven: That doesn't work bcz 'a' needs to be the target 12:38:38 MarkB: But the observer is on it 12:38:59 12:39:00 ... 12:39:00

12:39:00 Here is some content in a paragraph that includes a link to 12:39:00 the 12:39:01 draft 12:39:02 document. 12:39:04

12:41:29 Charlie: It is more complex, then putting on one attribute 12:42:02 EventTarget.dispatchEvent() - http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Events/events.html#Events-flow 12:42:30 ShaneM: The goal is to make it declarative (and be able to do anything we can with scripting) if we remove this do we loose anything? 12:42:57 MarkB: I don't think it is directly in DOM 2 events 12:43:03 s/loose/lose/ 12:43:29 Roland: We still want this for dispatch 12:44:07 Roland: Do we want it as global attribute for the listeners 12:44:13 http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Events/events.html#Events-EventTarget 12:44:27 There is no way to register for *only* target. 12:44:48 We added that as a convenience. 12:45:10 But an implementation would need to,...er,...implement it. :) 12:45:55 Steven: There is a solution you can query the phase and target 12:46:14 MarkB: Yes but you have to layer it on DOM 2 events 12:48:32 Roland: So what would we loose 12:49:04 Steven: The two options is remove it and say how you could do it without target, the second option is to rename the attribute 12:49:29 s/two options is/two options are/ 12:49:43 if=(eventcontext(target)='myid') 12:50:09 observe="o" phase="target" if="event('target')='descendant'" 12:50:19 s/o/ancestor 12:51:19 get rid of phase 12:51:30 it will always be bubble or capture at the ancestor 12:51:59 Steven: I don't think we need the target attribute 12:52:28 event('target').id 12:52:55 event('target')/@id = 'descendant' 12:53:11 or @xml:id ;-) 12:53:17 yes 12:53:47 wrong hieracrhy, though :) 12:54:24 s/hieracrhy/hierarchy 12:54:28 MarkB: The element is the UI and therefore you couldn't do any xpath expressions on it 12:54:46 Roland: we call it eventtarget 12:55:41