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07:06:45 <Hixie> glazou, plinss: i'm around; let me know if/when i should attend the css meeting, i have multiple clashing meetings but am happy to move from one to the other as needs warrant
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07:09:42 <glazou> Hixie: sure thing ; how was discussion with tbl?
07:11:09 <Hixie> good, good
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07:14:52 <glazou> wb CWilso :)
07:16:25 <CWilso> :)
07:17:10 <glazou> ok, cool
07:17:19 <glazou> we'll start with css system colors at 9:30
07:17:27 <Hixie> quick question about the media queries decisions yesterday -- do they imply any changes required to acid3? should i uncomment out any of the commented out tests?
07:17:31 <glazou> the accessibility guys want us to keep them
07:18:14 <glazou> Hixie: we did not make any MQ decision yesterday hixie
07:18:25 <anne> Hixie, media queries got published with changes that requires stuff to stay commented out
07:18:30 <glazou> we made changes during last call related to error recovery 
07:18:30 <Hixie> oh sorry, was looking at last week's minutes
07:18:34 <glazou> yeah
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07:18:47 <glazou> so, yes, that might trigger changes in acid3
07:19:00 <glazou> if acid3 checks error recovery in mdeia value
07:19:07 <glazou> media
07:19:26 <Hixie> ok i'll coordinate with anne
07:19:30 <glazou> ok
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07:25:29 <glazou> http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/mandelieu-2008
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07:34:27 <alexmog> scribenick: alexmog
07:34:37 <alexmog> Topic: system colors
07:34:55 <alexmog> Richard is presenting
07:36:05 <alexmog> Richard, IBM accessibility 
07:36:54 <alexmog> richard  will explain why it is not a good idea to deprecate system clolors
07:37:08 <glazou> s/Richard/Richard Schwerdtfeger
07:38:05 <alexmog> R: with rich internet apps, we can create objects that use system color settings like "icon", "menu" etc.
07:38:57 <alexmog> R: while system colors are available, accessibility can find colors and get idea of a role
07:39:52 <alexmog> DB is trying to understand why we are talking about using things that look like system controls but are not system controls
07:41:23 <glazou> (attendance list monday morning TPAC: jdagget, plinss, alexm, fantasi, dbaron, szilles, Bert, howcome, dino, glazou + Richard Schwerdtfeger)
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07:56:49 <glazou> aaaah
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08:06:05 <alexmog> R: actually it is to keep application colors in sync with system settings. e.g. if there is a system color for highlight it can be applied to tree widgets
08:06:09 <alexmog> Hakon: do you know about personal stylesheet
08:06:09 <alexmog> DB: does is have to lead to CSS system colors as a solution?
08:06:09 <alexmog> Elika: ... ways to override colors based on Aria settings
08:06:09 <alexmog> DB: points at the titlebar with a gradient in windows colors dialog
08:06:09 <alexmog> DB: css system colors model system effect, but in a simpler way, as a set of colors rather than exact system effects like rounded borders or gradients
08:06:11 <alexmog> DB: that is a big rationale for deprecation (colors don't represent exact system effect)
08:06:13 <alexmog> DB: another rationale - these are very Windows specific
08:06:15 <alexmog> DB: Windows controls are used in controls in multiple combinations that are hard to map to other systems
08:06:17 <alexmog> ... more discussion
08:06:19 <alexmog> JD: I'm concerned that we're going for checking items off a list rather than actually solving the problem
08:06:21 <alexmog> Richard: My concern is mainly about giving the author the ability to ensure enough contrast.
08:06:23 <alexmog> Richard: My suggestion is to pick a baseline set of colors: window bg, text color, highlight colors, and maybe a border color and draw the line there.
08:06:26 <alexmog> Howcome: Can I show you what we do with Opera?
08:06:28 <alexmog> Howcome projects Opera with high-contrast settings.
08:06:30 <alexmog> DB: There are other ways to do this besides style sheets
08:06:32 <alexmog> DB: Mozilla has the minimum size pref
08:06:34 <alexmog> DB: We also have options to say that the browser should ignore colors set by the author.
08:06:36 <alexmog> DB: When we do that, we also preserve transparency, which you can't do with an author style sheet.
08:06:38 <alexmog> DB: When you start doing things like that, then you get to the point where a lot of applications will still work.
08:06:40 <alexmog> DB: Even if you make government websites meet these requirements, users are going to want to visit other sites as well.
08:06:43 <alexmog> DB: You have the option of solving the problem at one point, and you have the option of making all authors try to solve the problem.
08:06:46 <alexmog> SZ: So what I'm hearing is that system colors doesn't solve the problem.
08:06:48 <alexmog> SZ: Maybe the way of solving the problem is identifying ways the browser can enable a disabled person to view the web
08:06:51 <alexmog> SZ: The catch is that the browser is only one aspect of using the computer.
08:06:53 <alexmog> SZ: With system colors, the settings are system-wide
08:06:55 <alexmog> DB: When you turn off author colors, usually the browser will use the system colors as the default.
08:06:57 <alexmog> DB: The point I was making a few minutes ago, it seems when there's the possibility of solving this problem at one point vs. making each author solve them independently
08:07:00 <alexmog> DB: It seems we're going for the high-cost approach.
08:07:02 <alexmog> Richard: The browser doesn't know what the author intended.
08:07:04 <alexmog> DB: I'm not saying that the approach I want would mean no work for the author.
08:07:06 <alexmog> DB: For example, the author might have to use appropriate markup to cause the browser to do the right thing.
08:07:08 <alexmog> Richard: That works for standard form controls.
08:07:10 <alexmog> Richard: But when the author is making custom controls, the author needs to make the decisions the browser makes
08:07:13 <alexmog> EE: Couldn't you make the browser style custom controls based on the ARIA attributes?
08:07:14 <alexmog> EE: If the author uses the ARIA attributes correctly (which you're assuming anyway) then the browser can have a setting that forces system colors on those controls based on the ARIA attributes.
08:07:17 <alexmog> EE: I note that if you make the authors do the coloring work, most of them will get it wrong.
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08:07:19 <alexmog> Howcome shows Opera's high-contrast and zoom settings on Yahoo Mail
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08:09:05 <alexmog> richard point at selection not being visible at yahoo inbox
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08:09:28 <alexmog> JD: how would system colors help here?
08:09:47 <alexmog> Richard: because it uses highlight colors of the system
08:11:57 <alexmog> EE: aria attributes have enough information to be able to render with the right colors
08:12:31 <alexmog> AM: Aria has coarser granularity, not enough to represent UI elements
08:12:39 <glazou> CWilso: you're in France, just thank Orange...
08:13:01 <glazou> because demos w/o connectivity...
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08:14:15 <alexmog> discussing tabs on Orange page example...
08:14:40 <alexmog> DB: tabs are really really complicated. questioning if system colors will help
08:16:20 <alexmog> EE: browser shoud be able to make things look like tabs...
08:16:26 <alexmog> AM is not sure what it means
08:16:43 <alexmog> Hakon reminds about mobile
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08:21:23 <fantasai> Alex: So what I'm hearing is that you want system colors so that someone who has the budget to really do a lot of accessibility work they can make a really cool-looking app with system colors
08:21:44 <fantasai> EE: System colors don't give you access to the gradients, bitmaps, etc. that you need to make a modern-looking app
08:21:52 <fantasai> EE: If you want to use system colors, sure you can get enough contrast
08:22:03 <fantasai> EE: But your web app will look like a Windows 3.1 application
08:22:10 <fantasai> EE: That's the best you can do with system colors
08:22:48 <fantasai> EE: The browser can get access to all of that stylistic information and draw real-looking controls
08:23:13 <fantasai> EE: If it has a way of knowing what to draw where
08:25:06 <fantasai> Richard: ...
08:25:32 <fantasai> Richard: I'm proposing that you have four basic colors so you can draw controls with enough contrast
08:25:37 <fantasai> Peter: That won't be enough
08:25:47 <fantasai> DB: I'd like to point out that deprecated doesn't mean gone.
08:25:55 <fantasai> DB: Deprecated means there's a better solution
08:26:20 <fantasai> DB: It might be not quite ready yet, but this is not the right permanent solution
08:26:24 <fantasai> Richard: What's the better solution?
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08:26:38 <fantasai> DB: Some combination of better markup for controls and the CSS 'appearance' property
08:32:42 <fantasai> EE: Deprecation means they shouldn't be used in favor of something else (the 'appearance' property), but they are still required to be supported.
08:33:21 <fantasai> DB: Mozilla has supported system colors for ages.
08:33:38 <Bert> QA definition of deprecated: http://www.w3.org/QA/glossary
08:33:49 <fantasai> PL: It uses them to render its own UI, so it has more capability for representing system-based UI than is in that spec
08:33:49 <Bert> "An existing feature that has become outdated and is in the process of being phased out, usually in favor of a specified replacement. Deprecated features are no longer recommended for use and may cease to exist in future versions of the specification."
08:35:38 <fantasai> Richard: So I'd request that you add that wording to css3-color
08:35:42 <fantasai> DB: I've added it to my issues list
08:36:01 <fantasai> Richard: And we need to come up with a solution
08:36:11 <fantasai> JD: I think it needs to be at a higher semantic level
08:37:31 <fantasai> SZ: It would be nice if css3-color linked informatively to the 'appearance' property
08:39:23 <glazou> (***** slot for coffee break is 1hr starting 10:30 *****)
08:43:33 <fantasai> discussion about custom controls, HTML5, system colors, accessibility, etc
08:43:50 <fantasai> Richard: lotus Notes 4 had 200 custom controls
08:45:36 <fantasai> ...
08:45:54 <fantasai> Richard: So you're saying that these colors are supported in IE, Opera, Mozilla, and WebKit?
08:45:59 <fantasai> DB: more or less
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08:46:13 <fantasai> DB: but I've had to go through and write implementation reports for these
08:46:43 <fantasai> DB: and I couldn't mark them all as passing
08:46:51 <fantasai> DB: Each time it was some bizarre judgement call
08:47:14 <fantasai> DB: about whether the system color approximated what it was supposed to approximate
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08:48:05 <glazou> (****************** COFFEE BREAK TIME ; RETURN 11:10 ****************)
08:48:09 <fantasai> DB: whether or not that thing existed on the OS I was running the test on
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09:23:07 <glazou> ScribeNick glazou
09:23:10 <glazou> ScribeNick: glazou
09:23:42 <glazou> Topic is Apple proposals (transformations, animations, ...)
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09:25:37 <glazou> dino: webkit has made a few extensions to css in response to external user feedback
09:25:46 <glazou> dino: other companies wanted that too
09:26:07 <glazou> dino: the goal was always to propose it to css wg
09:26:29 <glazou> dino: css transforms, allows to 2d or 3D transform any element
09:26:46 <glazou> dino: transitions, animated effects between two sets of properties in a given time
09:27:03 <glazou> dino: animations, same but with key frames
09:27:22 <glazou> dino: the 3 specs are documented on webkit side, looking like w3c specs
09:27:42 <CWilso> goal should be to discuss/design in the WG, imo
09:27:47 <glazou> dino: webkit nightlies implement transforms, also on iphone, and firefox has in 3.1
09:27:54 <CWilso> :)
09:27:59 <glazou> dino: transitions and animations spec also there
09:28:05 <glazou> CWilso: right
09:28:28 <dbaron> http://webkit.org/specs/CSSVisualEffects/CSSTransforms.html
09:28:36 <dbaron> http://webkit.org/specs/CSSVisualEffects/CSSTransitions.html
09:28:41 <dbaron> http://webkit.org/specs/CSSVisualEffects/CSSAnimation.html
09:28:45 <glazou> glazou: are all specs implemented ?
09:28:51 <glazou> dino: yes all of them are in nightlies
09:29:02 <glazou> howcome: I'm confused, what are the 3 ?
09:29:12 <glazou> dino: transforms, transitions, animations
09:29:41 <glazou> howcome: where's gradients ?
09:29:44 <dbaron> http://webkit.org/blog/175/introducing-css-gradients/
09:29:48 <dbaron> http://webkit.org/blog/181/css-masks/
09:29:54 <dbaron> http://webkit.org/blog/182/css-reflections/
09:30:04 <glazou> dino: there are 3 more, gradients, masks and reflections, not documented yet very well
09:30:12 <glazou> dino: only on the webkit blog for the time being
09:30:48 <glazou> dino shows gradient syntax and example
09:31:26 <glazou> dino shows reflections syntax and demo
09:32:09 <glazou> glazou: and how many people are already using this ?
09:32:13 <glazou> dino: no idea yet ?
09:32:22 <glazou> howcome: does it change the size of image ?
09:32:29 <glazou> dino: I can't answer on that but I suppose not
09:32:57 <glazou> dino: you have to set a margin and the reflection shows in the margin
09:33:32 <glazou> howcome: why not resize the image ?
09:33:44 <glazou> glazou: probably too complex to predict the size of the whole thing
09:33:55 <glazou> jdagget: the reflection is probably the least interesting
09:34:22 <fantasai> http://fantasai.inkedblade.net/style/discuss/wasp-feedback-2008#gradients
09:34:23 <glazou> howcome: can you use MAMA to determine if web sites already use these beasts ?
09:34:29 <glazou> s/howcome/glazou
09:34:32 <glazou> howcome: yes
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09:34:51 <glazou> dino: transforms, animations & transitions are in a state for FPWD
09:35:00 <glazou> dino: not the 3 others
09:35:15 <glazou> fantasai: dbaron sent a lot of comments six months ago, were they addressed ?
09:35:22 <glazou> dino: I assumed they were
09:35:28 <glazou> s/assumed/assume
09:35:51 <glazou> dino: I'm the one editing the specs and I try to keep up to date with feedback
09:36:15 <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2007Nov/0223.html
09:36:18 <glazou> dino: transforms is quite tricky, can influence the content's context and that goes beyond my CSS knowledge
09:36:19 <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Sep/0043.html
09:36:25 <fantasai> those are dbaron's comments
09:36:36 <glazou> szilles: what about rotation ? a few issues were addressed
09:36:54 <Bert> http://www.w3.org/Style/Group/css3-src/css3-box/Overview.html#the-transform contains the latest text I know about transformations.
09:37:01 <glazou> szilles: css syntax rules inconsistent with the proposals too
09:37:11 <dbaron> I recall hyatt responding to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Sep/0043.html
09:37:30 <glazou> peter: we discuss it in beijing and cambridge
09:37:59 <dbaron> RRSAgent, make logs public
09:38:36 <glazou> dbaron: I have implemented these but not sure spec says it already
09:38:40 <glazou> s/dbaron/dino
09:38:59 <glazou> glazou: so ready for FPWD ?
09:39:13 <glazou> dino: yes
09:39:22 <glazou> glazou,szilles: out of scope for current charter
09:39:29 <glazou> dino: yes we target next target
09:39:44 <glazou> dino: current charter is terribly vague but
09:40:01 <glazou> glazou: only a question of a few months
09:40:11 <glazou> dino: yes, that's why we targetted next charter
09:40:38 <glazou> dino: do you think this is acceptable and what kind of review would you like ?
09:41:04 <glazou> szilles: for transformations, there is a reasonnable context
09:41:25 <glazou> szilles: but further down, why isn't it in the scope of the graphics domain?
09:41:45 <glazou> dino: I get your point on masks, and others
09:42:00 <glazou> dino: people use JS to do transitions, animations, transformations
09:42:10 <glazou> dino: this is more dynamic than graphical effect
09:42:28 <glazou> dino: having it in css makes it really easy to edit
09:42:34 <glazou> dino: also important for mobile devices
09:42:45 <glazou> dino: more accessible and not JS-consuming
09:43:00 <glazou> dino: and if you don't support it, the page is still readable
09:43:12 <glazou> dino: quite simple to describe and fits well into something like CSS
09:43:17 <glazou> szilles: so why not SMIL ?
09:43:26 <glazou> dino: these are separate things
09:43:36 <glazou> dino: nothing in SMIL allows you to do such transitions
09:43:52 <glazou> dino: different interaction model and you can't update the CSS OM like we propose to do
09:44:12 <glazou> dino: animations does definitely have an overlap with SMIL
09:44:27 <glazou> dino: we are consistent with SMIL, same timing model and yadayada
09:44:42 <glazou> dino: we wanted to express it as document style rather than markup
09:44:51 <glazou> dino: so it's triggerable by CSS Media Queries
09:45:08 <glazou> jdagget: you could do that using SVG animations
09:45:16 <glazou> dino: yep, you can even apply it to each other
09:45:25 <glazou> howcome: you do svg animations
09:45:31 <glazou> dino: yes, not completely, but enough
09:45:52 <glazou> dino: whoever designed the acid tests deserve credit for that :)
09:45:56 <glazou> (laughs)
09:46:12 <CWilso> ack hi
09:46:16 <glazou> dino: so very well suited for CSS but I understand also why some people say do SMIL instead
09:46:35 <dbaron> http://developer.mozilla.org/web-tech/2008/09/15/svg-effects-for-html-content/
09:46:42 <dbaron> (and http://developer.mozilla.org/web-tech/2008/10/10/svg-external-document-references/ )
09:46:42 <glazou> dino: but it's easy for authors
09:47:15 <glazou> fantasai: when we asked from feddback from WASP, a lot of people requested gradients in CSS
09:47:36 <dbaron> s/feddback/feedback/
09:47:38 <glazou> fantasai: for some of the other effects, the idea of applying SVG is better
09:47:53 <glazou> fantasai: don't duplicate things, don't have different ways for same thing
09:48:06 <glazou> fantasai: creating duplication adds complexity for the others
09:48:23 <glazou> dino does not agree apparently
09:49:22 <glazou> glazou: having all of this in CSS makes my job easier for BlueGriffon
09:50:19 <glazou> Bert and howcome discussing purity vs. pragmatism
09:50:45 <glazou> jdaggett: SVG people want a lot of things
09:51:11 <glazou> dino: there're not many people in the world who can do SVG filters that well
09:51:17 <glazou> fantasai: SVG libraries ?
09:51:34 <glazou> fantasai: again, I have comments "don't duplicate features' entry points"
09:51:55 <glazou> (shepazu enters the meeting room)
09:52:14 <glazou> Bert: CSS and HTML I want to write by hand
09:52:17 <glazou> Bert: SVG no
09:52:28 <glazou> dino: CSS should allow to make the easy things easily
09:52:38 <glazou> dino: full SVG power for complicated stuff
09:52:51 <glazou> szilles: I'm lost
09:52:59 <glazou> szilles: reflection is mostly graphic
09:53:13 <glazou> szilles: that's more relevant in graphics spec
09:53:26 <glazou> jdaggett: SVG ?
09:53:31 <glazou> szilles: yeah a spec like SVG
09:53:47 <glazou> szilles: should a reflected image itself be an object ?
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09:54:26 <glazou> glazou: just like a complex shadow ?
09:54:48 <glazou> plinss: why not a pseudo-element so it can be styled ?
09:55:40 <glazou> howcome demos reflection in video using SVG
09:55:47 <glazou> glazou: hard to implement in wysiwyg editors
09:56:38 <glazou> shepazu: I don't see why you shouldn't have it in css if it fits into css
09:57:17 <glazou> fantasai: again, not a lot of requests for reflections from authors
09:57:37 <glazou> shepazu: they do it as a graphic !
09:57:47 <glazou> shepazu: if css is available, they'll use it
09:57:50 <glazou> glazou: clap clap clap
09:57:57 <fantasai> fantasai: I'm saying, let's add the ability to use SVG filters on an HTML document
09:58:03 <fantasai> fantasai: so that these things are possible
09:58:10 <glazou> dino: we try to be compatible with whatever is already implemented
09:58:15 <fantasai> fantasai: and then see if there's a demand for syntactic shortcuts
09:58:38 <glazou> dino: SVG linear gradients have extra capabilities, that's all
09:58:54 <glazou> dino compares CSS and SVG proposals here
09:59:08 <glazou> dino: pretty much exactly the same, expressed more in a CSS way
09:59:25 <glazou> alexm: do specs belong to CSS charter?
10:00:03 <glazou> alexm seems to be in favor of CSS-ing all of this
10:00:13 <fantasai> glazou, that is not a fair summary
10:00:31 <glazou> fantasai, fix it please
10:00:49 <fantasai> alexm: For transitions and animations I do not see a reason why this does not belong to CSS
10:01:08 <glazou> dino makes a demo with the iphone emulator
10:01:12 <fantasai> alexm: In the 21st century there should be a declarative way of specifying this
10:01:17 <glazou> s/emulator/simulator
10:01:46 <glazou> dino: written in JS and CSS, 200 lines of JS and 20 of CSS
10:02:02 <glazou> dino: we moved content from JS code to CSS? far easier to understand
10:02:12 <glazou> dino: if users understand css, they understand that
10:02:19 <glazou> dino: the frame rate improved too
10:02:49 <glazou> dino: we have 3 different animations at the same time here
10:03:05 <glazou> dino: nice effect doable with CSS
10:03:28 <glazou> Bert: hey, make one big animated GIF
10:03:36 <glazou> jdaggett,shepazu: uuuuuuuh
10:03:47 <glazou> howcome: what if animations are not here ?
10:03:59 <glazou> dino shows
10:04:20 <glazou> howcomes: we did replace JS rollovers with :hover
10:04:38 <glazou> dino: you can use the DOM to trigger your animations
10:05:04 <glazou> Bert expressed wishes that are not exactly in line with modern web sites :-)
10:05:25 <glazou> dino shows another demo of movable objects in a page with 1 line of -webkit-* css
10:05:34 <glazou> Bert: transitions, agreed, very useful
10:05:46 <glazou> dino shows an even cooler demo
10:06:23 <glazou> dino shows a 3d demo, very nice indeed
10:06:36 <glazou> Bert: transforms ok but low priority
10:06:44 <glazou> Bert: but why animations ?
10:07:25 <glazou> Bert: why should I have animations in a site I use for my work ?
10:07:44 <glazou> dino: use style sheet disables animations !
10:07:48 <glazou> Bert: good argument
10:07:52 <fantasai> s/use/user/
10:08:02 <glazou> Bert: we'll have a thousand properties and css won't be usable any more
10:08:18 <glazou> Bert: css is for the low end
10:08:40 <glazou> Bert: you don't have to know css
10:08:47 <glazou> glazou: false with my nvu hat
10:09:27 <glazou> fantasai: 2-columns layout
10:10:25 <glazou> glazou: basics of css are easy, but false you can edit nice stuff w/o deep language
10:10:28 <fantasai> I note that CSS has no facility for 2-column layout, table-cell display in IE will help with that
10:10:36 <glazou> Bert: at-rule are terrible for instance
10:10:45 <glazou> all: uuuh ?
10:11:48 <glazou> glazou: I totally disagree with that, and I authored a book on css2
10:12:08 <glazou> shepazu: if you ask the CSS teams of browsers if they are interested in this, they'll reply yes
10:12:22 <glazou> glazou: mozilla already started
10:12:39 <glazou> Bert: you have to observe people writing CSS
10:12:49 <glazou> glazou: I do that all the time, Nvu has 3.5 million users !
10:13:02 <glazou> shepazu: really complicated to use JS to do that
10:13:10 <glazou> shepazu: copying 1 line of CSS is far easier !
10:13:29 <glazou> Bert: but not SMIL
10:14:02 <glazou> glazou: are you chosing the most complex solution all the time ?
10:14:27 <glazou> (anne and hixie join)
10:16:06 <glazou> glazou: it will end up in the same block of declarations anyway
10:16:11 <glazou> Bert: don't use CSS
10:16:16 <glazou> alexmog: we should do it
10:16:25 <glazou> shepazu: is mozilla interested ?
10:16:38 <glazou> dbaron: we already do transforms and are looking at animations/transitions
10:17:13 <glazou> shepazu: what about google
10:17:43 <glazou> Hixie: chrome will ship this, yes
10:17:56 <glazou> shepazu: so the 4 major browsers will *do* it
10:18:15 <glazou> shepazu: it seems to me this is the reality of what authors want to do
10:18:28 <glazou> shepazu: they won't do it if authors don't want it
10:19:03 <glazou> Bert: I'm more and more convinced that Andy was right saying immplementors should not decide what goes into CSS
10:19:12 <glazou> Bert: clean design will go away
10:19:35 <glazou> shepazu will probably faint before end of the meeting
10:19:54 <glazou> Hixie: all authors want animations, so much script to do this crap
10:20:09 <glazou> shepazu: replacing script anywhere is good
10:20:13 <glazou> Bert: agreed but not in css
10:20:42 <glazou> glazou: this is an animated discussion and I want a transition :)
10:21:06 <glazou> dino: to followup on ian, we've a big web site and we try to make things easier for wes sites authors
10:21:29 <glazou> shepazu: not having these things leads to inaccessible pages
10:22:33 <glazou> howcome: come on, easy to turn them off
10:22:41 <glazou> glazou: we'll have it anyways I think
10:23:00 <glazou> shepazu: it'll be in every browser in 1.5 year
10:23:16 <glazou> Bert: you are killing the Web
10:23:26 <glazou> shepazu leaves, his face red and breath short :-)
10:23:37 <glazou> shepazu comes back :)
10:24:47 <fantasai> steve: Doug, in his discussion, said that this propagation of features from one specification to another only make s sense if the results are coordinated so that we don't get conflicts in the models
10:24:56 <fantasai> steve: so that the models are sufficeintly similar so that one implementation can implement both
10:25:12 <fantasai> steve: it's a different entry point to the same feature, that is easier to to use
10:25:25 <glazou> shepazu: a person can still choose to do SMIL
10:25:39 <glazou> anne: there's already coordination happening
10:25:58 <glazou> anne: the main problem are prefixes
10:26:20 <glazou> szilles: only emphasizing it should be coordinated
10:26:59 <glazou> shepazu: the svg wg would like to know about the stuff but is confident about coordination
10:27:41 <fantasai> shepazu: using css transforms, animations, could be useful in svg as well
10:27:53 <fantasai> glazou: In order to bring this through the rec track, we need more presence from Apple
10:28:07 <fantasai> glazou: and more people on the wg capable of discussing these technically
10:28:13 <glazou> dino: conf calls are difficult for me, 3am
10:28:26 <glazou> dino: dsinger can attend often, but less technical but can relay
10:28:34 <glazou> dino: ftf are hard, but hard
10:28:38 <glazou> dino: it's time
10:28:52 <fantasai> glazou: My point, if you are not carrying your specs no one else is going to do that
10:28:58 <glazou> dino: we offered to do it
10:29:39 <fantasai> glazou, fantasai: but you need to be present and participate in discussion
10:30:21 <fantasai> glazou, fantasai: we can try to work with logistic,s e.g. set up a new telecon at a better time, but you have to put in the time and effort to show up
10:30:42 <fantasai> glazou: we also need coordination with other browser vendors
10:31:07 <glazou> howcome: we have 6 specs here
10:31:21 <glazou> dino: smaller number of specs is better
10:31:28 <glazou> fantasai: small specs are better
10:31:39 <glazou> shepazu: authors think they can do it
10:31:46 <glazou> dbaron: current separation seems fine to me
10:31:59 <glazou> dino: I want to split transforms into 2d and 3d
10:32:03 <glazou> all: agreed
10:32:31 <glazou> fantasai: we should get them on w3.org
10:32:41 <fantasai> s/w3.org/dev.w3.org/
10:32:50 <glazou> dino: we do care about the patent policy
10:33:52 <fantasai> dino: that's one reason we want to bring it to w3c
10:34:13 <fantasai> glazou: I don't think it's a good idea to do that right now, since we are in the process of rechartering
10:34:57 <glazou> dino: there's a 7th proposal
10:35:07 <dbaron> http://webkit.org/specs/Timed_Media_CSS.html
10:35:07 <glazou> dino: time m
10:35:12 <glazou> dino: timed media in css
10:35:37 <glazou> dino: layout control over time-based elements like video
10:35:57 <glazou> Bert: but that already exists on your computer
10:36:03 <glazou> shepazu shakes his head
10:36:14 <fantasai> hixie: I'm a little more dubious about that since they interact with the DOM in a bad way
10:36:36 <fantasai> glazou: I want to draw a few conclusions here
10:36:51 <fantasai> glazou: First, all browser implementors are interested in these specs
10:37:18 <fantasai> glazou: Second, the SVG working is not totally opposed to this, since this has a gnice coordination with what they do and adds another entry point into their stuff
10:37:25 <fantasai> glazou: and it reduces the amount of script on the Web
10:37:45 <fantasai> glazou: Bert sees value in transforms and transitions
10:37:58 <fantasai> Bert: and if animations are as simple as transitions it would be no problem
10:38:23 <fantasai> glazou: Fourth, Apple is willing to put what is necessary to make the proposal evolve along the REC track and has no problem waiting until the end of the rechartering process
10:38:42 <fantasai> glazou: Last, everybody in the group sieems to be intereste din the features, and it is in the scope of the next charter
10:38:52 <Bert> (simple = simple in syntax, i.e., just one new properties and no @rules.)
10:39:29 <fantasai> dino: The specs are on the webkit.org site, we'll leave them there until someone says to move them
10:39:59 <fantasai> glazou: anything else we have to discuss on this?
10:40:08 <fantasai> LUNMCH
10:40:15 <fantasai> s/LUNMCH/LUNCH/
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12:21:29 <Bert> Scribe: Bert
12:21:43 <Bert> Topic: Multicol
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12:22:33 <Bert> Håkon shows some images.
12:23:00 <Bert> Håkon: I have no solutions, so this could be more like a workshop...
12:23:11 <glazou> (attendees: jdagget, plinss, sylvaing, fantasai, dbaron, alexmog, Bert, szilles, howcome, glazou)
12:23:15 <Bert> Håkon: Module is quite stable.
12:24:39 <Bert> Håkon: Just one issue: columns aren't really for continuous media, don't want columns longer than the window to avoid scrolling up and down, so height can be constrained...
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12:25:19 <Bert> Håkon: So set height to, e.g., 80% of the page height. But then ou get overflow.
12:26:03 <Bert> Håkon: Where does the overflow go? Two implementations add extra columns on the side.
12:26:25 <Bert> Fantasai: Depends on horiz or vert. context.
12:26:42 <Bert> Alex: Horizontal scrollbar makes sense in vertical text,
12:27:31 <Bert> Fantasai: Stacking columns can be a neat idea, make multiple "pages" of columns, but then need more properties. No single best solution.
12:28:17 <Bert> Alex: Stacking columns can be reasonable if they are about half the vieport height. Can quickly scroll these "pages" into view. Not great, but usable.
12:28:45 <fantasai> Fantasai: also it's really awkward to scroll through that, you need to position your scrollbars so that the entire block of columsn fits within the viewport, then scroll precisely to the next set
12:29:07 <Bert> Steve: If I scroll a column at a time, I keep the context. If I jump to a page, you don't see the context anymore. Cf. turning th epage and no longer remembering the last line at the bottom.
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12:30:17 <Bert> Alex: For immersive reading experience it is important that the next line to read is where the previous ended, even after turning the page.
12:30:36 <fantasai> Alex: Scrolling is really bad for that kind of reading experience
12:30:49 <Bert> Alex: In Word paginated reading mode exists, sicne 2003. at first we had 2 pages on the screen at the time.
12:31:04 <Bert> Alex: We found it's confusing for people.
12:31:28 <Bert> Alex: The sentence that you were reading changes place when you move by one page.
12:32:03 <Bert> Alex: Thought there is a place for that mode too, in some cases.
12:32:41 <Bert> Glazou draws: 3 columns, with text below the view.
12:33:08 <Bert> Peter: Our conclusion was that all modes were valid in some cases, if the designers wants it.
12:33:25 <Bert> Steve: Reason for columns is to keep lines short.
12:34:02 <Bert> Glazou: My drawing has a fixed height with overflow per column.
12:34:15 <Bert> Glazou: There will be overlap.
12:34:34 <Bert> Håkon: Will be an unusable page, consider a phone, e.g.,
12:35:04 <Bert> Glazou: How does user know when to scroll sideways? The overflow is not visible.
12:35:20 <Bert> Håkon: That is an issue. Scrollbar may be turned off.
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12:35:43 <Bert> Steve: That's  general question: how do you know there is more than you see?
12:35:59 <Bert> Glazou: In my drawing you will know, because there is overlap.
12:36:10 <Bert> Steve: I don'tt know if that is on purpose.
12:36:21 <Bert> Steve: And it may be below the window,
12:36:43 <Bert> Håkon: 'Overflow' can hide it.
12:37:06 <Bert> Peter: It's always been a UA issue, but not necessarily an issue here.
12:37:27 <Bert> Steve: It can happen with any fixed height block, even without multicol.
12:37:36 <Bert> Alex: Are we discussing a fallback?
12:37:44 <Bert> Håkon: Agree.
12:37:56 <Bert> Alex: There ios no natural way to overflow columns. Traditional is to mke a new page.
12:38:20 <Bert> Håkon: hat's why I think pagination solution is the right thing to do. More work, though...
12:38:43 <Bert> Alex: Author can have a choice, among two non-ideal behaviors.
12:39:02 <Bert> Håkon: Limiting the height is useful, and should not have text overlap other text.
12:39:34 <Bert> Håkon draws paginated columns: 3 columns, then a break, then 3 more columns below that.
12:39:59 <Bert> Fantasai: There are sites that only scroll horizontally. Becaus e they feel like it.
12:40:23 <Bert> Fantasai: Not necessarily bad, as long as you only scroll horiz,
12:40:59 <Bert> Håkon: You can do that by setting a big width.
12:41:41 <Bert> Steve: What width? And you are limited to the screen, so it's overflow anyway.
12:42:21 <Bert> Fantasai: You on't ant fixed height, you want an auto height that is determined by the amount of content.
12:42:39 <Bert> Håkon: Right, needs a separate property column-length or similar.
12:42:59 <Bert> Håkon: Let's look at that in more detail.
12:43:22 <Bert> Håkon: It avoid having toset height.
12:43:30 <Bert> Steve: Now where do they wrap?
12:44:06 <Bert> Håkon, when the column-height is full, you create another set of columns of the same height. It's not overflow.
12:44:31 <Bert> David: But then scrolling is difficult. You have to scroll the exact right amount.
12:45:16 <Bert> Håkon: Meta-solution is to have overflow mode pagination as general feature.
12:45:49 <Bert> Håkon Set overflow-mode: paginate and you will get new pages for all overflow.
12:46:02 <Bert> Håkon: Cf NYT reader.
12:46:25 <Bert> Håkon draws pages with next/previous buttons in the lower right corner.
12:46:33 <Bert> Alex: Who controls the look of the buttons?
12:46:59 <Bert> Peter: And if you set overflow-mode on another elt than the root?
12:47:16 <Bert> Fantasai: Then you get a paged box in the document.
12:47:41 <Bert> Håkon: I do't think authors want to style the prev/next buttons.
12:48:00 <Bert> Håkone: we had that discussion with controsl for video in HTML5.
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12:48:42 <Bert> Håkon: We will get requests from designers to style them.
12:48:49 <Bert> Steve: So make that possible.
12:49:06 <Bert> Håkon: Will need DOM, etc.
12:49:32 <Bert> Peter: Can be in some later, independent module.
12:50:21 <Bert> Håkone: Let's try to design it: what are the pseudo-elements called?
12:50:31 <Bert> Bert: How do you knwo there are two?
12:50:43 <Bert> Steve: I would want them in the scrollbar, not in the page.
12:51:18 <Bert> Peter: Also things like "jump 50 pages." We can designe generic mechanism, but shouldn't be exclusive.
12:51:37 <Bert> Alex: I have a proposal.
12:51:57 <Bert> Alex: Current definition of 'overflow: scroll' is very reasnable.
12:52:29 <Bert> Alex: We can make it scroll the right amount. UI mechanism can be buitl-in.
12:52:41 <Bert> Alex: You can bind it to DOM if you want.
12:53:08 <Bert> Alex: We know the box fits in the container. There are Javascript calls for scrollwidth/offset already.
12:53:35 <Bert> Alex: It's not trivial math, but not difficult.
12:54:08 <Bert> Alex: It would scroll by one page sideways.
12:54:25 <Bert> Håkon: Where is the backgroundon on an overflowing elt?
12:54:38 <Bert> Håkon: There is currently no bg behind the overflow.
12:55:01 <Bert> Peter: Set bg and overflow on two different elts.
12:55:31 <Bert> Alex: Allow UA to look at 'overflow: paginate' and either do scrollbar or something better, if it can.
12:55:55 <Bert> Steve: If you implement 'overflow-mode; you get a better behavior, but it works without.
12:56:17 <Bert> Steve: But user probably can't tell whether I'm using pagination or not in a page.
12:56:52 <Bert> Steve: If pages stack vertical or horizontal doesn't matter, you always jump by one page anyway.
12:57:22 <Bert> Alex: 'Overflow-x: scroll' will give horiz. scrolling by column.
12:57:35 <Bert> Alex: Interestign question is what happens for 'overflow-y'.
12:57:47 <Bert> Alex: All values are going to make sense.
12:58:20 <Bert> Fantasai: If I set diff. values for 'overflow' should not make difference for conceptual model of the layou.
12:58:42 <Bert> Alex: Yes, columns are always laid out the same.
12:59:42 <Bert> Fantasai: 'overflow-mode: paginate' would give paginated, Now imagine a background. The effect will be different based on layout.
13:00:36 <Bert> David: If you want paged, why would you want a different background?
13:01:22 <Bert> Fantasai is drawing: many columns side by side with three of them in viewport.
13:01:53 <Bert> Fantasai: If I paginate that, the next three columns go below the viewport.
13:02:30 <Bert> Fantasai: Without a background, it wouldn't make a difference: seeing the ast 3 or the 2nd three columns is the same.
13:02:57 <Bert> David: Aren't you confusing bg on elt that creates the columns and bg on the columns themselves.
13:03:16 <Bert> David: That viewport is the elt and it has its bg.
13:03:40 <Bert> Peter: So printing to a printer should effective switch to 'oveflowmode: paginate'?
13:03:48 <Bert> Steve: Maybe some issues with margins then?
13:04:30 <Bert> Steve: We ought to take 'paginate' bahavior from behavior in printed media. Not maybe exactly the same, but quite similar.
13:04:50 <dbaron> s/bg on the columns themselves/bg on things inside the columns/
13:05:11 <Bert> Håkon: Should we add 'overflow-mode: paginate' to Marquee?
13:05:21 <Bert> Fantasai: Better a new module.
13:06:03 <Bert> Fantasai: Leave multicol as it is, add new module later.
13:06:52 <Bert> Alex: If you have just overflow like this, you can print it and see everything. If it adds columns on the right, you cannot see all of them.
13:07:33 <Bert> Alex: In vertical text, a horizontal scrollbar that acts to move you to the next page may be surprising.
13:08:33 <dbaron> ScribeNick: fantasai
13:08:39 <fantasai> Howcome: it seems the conclusion is we don't make a change to the multicol spec now
13:09:20 <fantasai> Alex: This is interesting behavior, if you left it in wd for another year... :)
13:10:58 <fantasai> Alex: you can make a prototype of the pagination behavior by setting overflow:hidden and using scrolling apis
13:11:52 <fantasai> ...
13:12:05 <fantasai> Alex: I can easily see pagination widget being scrollbar with additional widgets
13:12:15 <fantasai> Alex: evenin page-reading mode, having a visual indication of where you are in the document is also useful
13:12:38 <fantasai> Steve: one thing to look at is the way pdfs get handled
13:12:55 <fantasai> Alex: pagination-mode thumnails
13:13:57 <fantasai> Howcome: I think I'm happy with this. I'll try to resolve the other comments to progress the draft
13:15:15 <fantasai> Sylvain: what are offset-width/height DOM properties in multicol mode?
13:15:29 <fantasai> David: You have these problems with inline elements anyway
13:15:55 <fantasai> David: And there are better apis for getting this info
13:16:07 <Bert> Håkon (to Alex): Ar eyou implementing?
13:16:13 <Bert> Alex: We're going to.
13:16:21 <Bert> Håkon: We ought to, too.
13:17:15 <Bert> Fantasai: With a fixed 'height' you're going to gety overflow, on some side.
13:17:42 <Bert> Fantasai: With 'column-length' the height grows to whatever it needs.
13:17:59 <Bert> Håkon: Can use 'column-gap' also between the pages.
13:18:08 <Bert> Steve: No, they are diff. gaps.
13:18:13 <fantasai> or column-row-gap
13:18:19 <fantasai> column-group-gap?
13:18:49 <Bert> Steve: Column length seems to introduc a whole set of new prblems. General paginate seems a better solution.
13:19:03 <Bert> Peter: Can be in future version of multicol.
13:19:23 <Bert> Steve: Got an elt that is pagainated, inside a DIV with a border. Where is the border?
13:19:51 <Bert> Peter: Just like overflow: scroll, i.e., border goes on outside.
13:20:13 <Bert> Fantasai: border aroudn the div has nothing to with the overflow. Not influenced.
13:20:34 <Bert> Steve: Doesn't look to me like overflow, why doesn't it extend the parent?
13:21:04 <Bert> Håkon: We could consider it as something else as overflow. But we do currently consider scroll a part of overflow.
13:21:21 <Bert> Steve: Paging is just a way of layout, not overflow.
13:21:58 <Bert> Steve: If I specify size of page, then it is overflow. But if I have some other way to set height, like column-length, then it's not overflow.
13:22:18 <Bert> Peter: Right, that does not set the height of the elt, so is not overflow.
13:22:41 <Bert> Alex: I see advatage of using overflow for pagination. Then you avoid defining their interaction.
13:22:57 <Bert> s/advatagea/dvantage/
13:23:06 <Bert> s/advatage/advantage/
13:23:29 <Bert> Peter: to paginate assumes a constrained container.
13:23:56 <Bert> Steve: Pagination is content that doesn't fit on the page, but it's not overflow.
13:24:29 <Bert> Peter: In my old product, we made pagination as a form of overflow.
13:25:22 <Bert> Håkon: Why on overflow-mode, why not on overflow itself?
13:25:55 <Bert> Fantasai: You need overflow: hidden independently.
13:26:28 <Bert> Fantasai: The scrolling mode is independent from whether it overflows at all.
13:26:53 <Bert> Håkon: Actually, the name is 'overflow-style', not -mode.
13:27:18 <Bert> Håkon: values are currently marquee and others.
13:27:33 <Bert> Håkon: Seems not the right comapny for 'paginate'
13:28:31 <Bert> BREAK
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14:14:09 <jdaggett_> ScribeNick: jdaggett
14:14:53 <jdaggett_> hakon: still on multi-column
14:15:07 <plinss_> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2007JulSep/0177.html
14:16:47 <jdaggett_> elika draws a pretty picture
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14:17:56 <jdaggett_> vertical document with horiz block
14:18:15 <jdaggett_> horiz block has no constraint b/c auto
14:19:26 <jdaggett_> what happens when set max-context from box module on horiz block
14:20:29 <jdaggett_> hakon: whether multi-column or not, width doesn't change
14:21:07 <jdaggett_> steve: is column-width inherited?
14:21:11 <jdaggett_> hakon: no
14:21:34 <jdaggett_> steve: i'm confused
14:22:21 <jdaggett_> discussion of what happens to multi-column in rotated text
14:23:32 <jdaggett_> steve: issue is if you do a 90deg rotation
14:23:44 <jdaggett_> steve: no longer have a fixed width
14:24:17 <jdaggett_> steve: if window height becomes the constraint
14:24:26 <jdaggett_> elika: pagination also an issue
14:24:35 <jdaggett_> steve: that doesn't depend on columns
14:24:54 <jdaggett_> alex and elika discussing this
14:26:05 <jdaggett_> when does content get pushed to another page
14:26:50 <jdaggett_> hakon: spec doesn't specify where page break occurs
14:27:07 <jdaggett_> alex: lots of other pagination issues other than this
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14:29:14 <jdaggett_> more discussion of page breaking in multi-column veritcal text
14:30:36 <jdaggett_> steve: page breaks are allowed on column boundaries but shouldn't occur between columns
14:30:51 <jdaggett_> hakon: we don't define a lot of those cases
14:31:41 <jdaggett_> alex: i'm really uncomfortable with spiltting columns across pages
14:32:28 <jdaggett_> alex describes image page breaking behavior
14:33:08 <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2007Nov/0112.html
14:33:22 <jdaggett_> hakon: unsure what to put into draft
14:33:53 <jdaggett_> steve: call out there is an issue with vertical text 
14:34:11 <jdaggett_> steve thinking while talking
14:35:04 <jdaggett_> elika: if gap between pages is parallel to column, don't break in middle of column
14:35:29 <jdaggett_> elika: don't break individual lines of content
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14:35:41 <jdaggett_> discussion of where this belongs
14:36:25 <jdaggett_> hakon: we should rely on generic rules
14:36:32 <jdaggett_> elika: rules already in css 2.1
14:36:43 <jdaggett_> dbaron: says about both directions?
14:36:44 <fantasai> elika: don't break line boxes
14:37:45 <jdaggett_> searching through section 13.3.3 of css 2.1
14:38:01 <jdaggett_> under "allowed page breaks"
14:38:16 <jdaggett_> elika: other question is can you alter column widths?
14:38:35 <jdaggett_> hakon: are we happy happy happy?
14:40:28 <jdaggett_> discussion of which rules apply when
14:41:03 <jdaggett_> alex: available height not being a condenser
14:41:11 <jdaggett_> steve: is there a min column width
14:41:22 <jdaggett_> more pretty pictures from elika
14:41:52 <jdaggett_> steve: do we shrink column widths
14:41:53 <jdaggett_> ?
14:42:31 <jdaggett_> elika: the rules that handle increased column-width based on containing block
14:43:01 <jdaggett_> hakon: pseudo-algorithm addresses this case
14:43:15 <jdaggett_> hakon: with the available width
14:43:35 <jdaggett_> section 4.4 of multi col spec
14:44:20 <fantasai> might need to define available width to also consider available width on the page when paginating in that direction
14:44:44 <jdaggett_> hakon: so this solves the issue?
14:44:55 <jdaggett_> hakon: next, border parts
14:45:19 <jdaggett_> generated content for paged media spec
14:45:31 <glazou> TOPIC is now border-length and friends
14:45:46 <jdaggett_> hakon explains example XXXV
14:46:41 <jdaggett_> bert makes a very funny face
14:46:46 <jdaggett_> hakon: this is very very cool
14:46:54 <jdaggett_> hakon: needed for footnotes
14:47:05 <jdaggett_> hakon: very intuitive
14:47:41 <jdaggett_> hakon: way to define dash above footnotes
14:47:50 <jdaggett_> alex mentions alternatives
14:48:07 <jdaggett_> dbaron: the on-off distinction doesn't work
14:48:44 <jdaggett_> general unhappiness to which hakon responds "it's very, very easy"
14:49:04 <jdaggett_> hakon: auto means stretch to the available space
14:49:21 <jdaggett_> hakon: could also use flex unit
14:49:34 <jdaggett_> elika drawing pictures again in the corner
14:50:04 <jdaggett_> dbaron thinks about other options
14:50:54 <jdaggett_> steve: the on-off stuff has been used in graphics for dashed line
14:51:35 <jdaggett_> steve: propose a specific footnote thingy
14:51:46 <jdaggett_> footnote separator
14:52:11 <jdaggett_> steve: leaders might also use on-off things
14:53:04 <jdaggett_> glazou: with css animation we can do crazy stuff
14:53:16 <jdaggett_> bert: footnotes that move around the page!
14:53:26 <jdaggett_> peter: moving borders are common
14:53:37 <glazou> CSS Animations + howcome's border-parts = rotating border parts !!!
14:53:41 <fantasai> I propose border-length: <length>{1,2} && [ center | left | right | corners ]?
14:53:45 <jdaggett_> steve: how about a pattern
14:54:09 <jdaggett_> peter: we had similar things with grids
14:54:28 <fantasai> border-length: 3em left;
14:54:42 <jdaggett_> glazou: elika's proposal is less inuitive
14:54:43 <fantasai> border-segment: 3em left;
14:54:57 <fantasai> border-top: solid red 2px;
14:55:45 <alexmog> .footnotes:before { display:block; height:0; width:3em; border-top:solid black 1px; }
14:55:54 <jdaggett_> glazou: how to specify border patterns
14:56:44 <jdaggett_> steve: might also want just borders on two corners
14:56:51 <jdaggett_> steve: can do this with script...
14:57:23 <jdaggett_> hakon: this is about geometry not content
14:57:30 <jdaggett_> alex thinks this is about content
14:57:34 <jdaggett_> generated content
14:58:04 <jdaggett_> alex: way more interesting generated content in css3 
14:58:18 <jdaggett_> hakon concerned about how to do footnotes
14:58:27 <jdaggett_> steve: borders vs. separators
14:59:10 <jdaggett_> elika: this format is just weird
14:59:39 <jdaggett_> hakon: it's trivial
15:00:05 <fantasai> elika: I want a 50% border across the top and bottom of my blockquote
15:00:17 <jdaggett_> elika: as a web designer where would i get the idea that i could do this
15:00:35 <jdaggett_> hakon: this is a mask
15:00:47 <jdaggett_> dbaron: how does it interact with border-image?
15:00:55 <jdaggett_> hakon: it's just a mask
15:01:21 <fantasai> elika: you want to make me write border-parts-top: 0 auto 50% auto; ?
15:01:55 <jdaggett_> steve: can there be a repeat with this?
15:02:27 <jdaggett_> hakon: some folks on the list wanted dashes
15:02:40 <jdaggett_> hakon and steve discussing patterns
15:03:57 <jdaggett_> something like
15:04:12 <jdaggett_> border-parts: pattern(10px 20px auto, repeat)
15:04:46 <jdaggett_> jdaggett: what does svg use for pattern syntax?
15:05:49 <jdaggett_> peter: border-parts: 10px repeat(10px 20px) 20px;
15:06:01 <jdaggett_> elika: this is all ridiculous
15:06:28 <jdaggett_> peter: equivalent to how to specify grid lines
15:07:47 <fantasai> elika: I'm happy with that syntax if that's what you want to do, but I think this is all ridiculous
15:08:17 <jdaggett_> alex: is there reasonable consensus that this is insane?
15:08:38 <jdaggett_> hakon: this is simple euclidaen geometry
15:09:16 <jdaggett_> hakon: some people have suggested flex units
15:09:44 <jdaggett_> hakon: some people might be confused by the use of auto
15:09:57 <jdaggett_> checking values and units spec
15:11:04 <jdaggett_> hakon looking at gd unit 
15:11:12 <jdaggett_> hakon: we should add fr 
15:11:19 <jdaggett_> steve: yuk
15:11:34 <jdaggett_> hakon: there's many worse things in css
15:11:45 <jdaggett_> alex: what happens when fr is in repeat?
15:13:10 <jdaggett_> What Would Patrick Swayze Do
15:13:26 <CWilso> that too.
15:14:02 <jdaggett_> discussion of what to do with repeat
15:14:53 <jdaggett_> peter: what happens if repeat has an odd number
15:15:10 <jdaggett_> elika: need a way to say "this many times the border width"
15:16:48 <jdaggett_> hakon: so i'll just write up this, shall i?
15:16:56 <jdaggett_> general snickers
15:17:02 <glazou> MoZ: make it "btw" and I buy it !-)
15:17:05 <jdaggett_> hakon: it's just an editors draft
15:17:21 <jdaggett_> buying and selling of issues takes place
15:17:32 <jdaggett_> hakon: i see an issue with repeat
15:17:56 <glazou> lol
15:17:58 <jdaggett_> hakon: you don't know many how many times you repeat
15:18:36 <jdaggett_> bert remains very, very quiet
15:20:42 <glazou> sylvaing: rotfl
15:21:35 <jdaggett_> general discussion of how repeat works
15:23:17 <glazou> co-chairman too, let's do a convoy
15:24:19 <glazou> CWilso: hey, we're speaking of individual properties here, not shorthands :-)
15:24:34 <jdaggett_> steve: difficulty with specifying dash-dot sequences
15:24:45 <jdaggett_> hakon: any units we should add?
15:25:07 <jdaggett_> hakon: bw?
15:25:13 <jdaggett_> alex: don't really need it
15:25:55 <jdaggett_> dbaron: don't have outline width, ow possible
15:26:30 <dbaron> I think you can stop minuting at this point... :-)
15:27:09 <jdaggett_> peter: issue beaten to death
15:27:33 <jdaggett_> alex: barcodes with this...
15:29:02 <jdaggett_> hakon: grammar question
15:29:48 <jdaggett_> calc(border-width-1em)
15:29:57 <jdaggett_> hows does this parse
15:30:12 <jdaggett_> dbaron: one ident token
15:31:06 <jdaggett_> discussion of parsing of calc
15:31:11 <jdaggett_> bert: insert spaces
15:31:37 <jdaggett_> hakon: should we say something about this in values and units
15:32:09 <dbaron> ScribeNick: dbaron
15:32:36 <dbaron> (discussion about :nth-child() argument syntax)
15:32:49 <dbaron> Peter: We decided the syntax for the argument there yesterday; it looks a lot like an expression.
15:33:00 <dbaron> Peter: At some point we'll need expression parsing rules, which aren't compatible with general CSS parsing rules.
15:33:08 <dbaron> Steve: Which means the tokenizer is in trouble.
15:33:16 <dbaron> Peter: "1px-7"
15:33:24 <dbaron> Bert: You have to put spaces.  That's normal.
15:33:35 <dbaron> Bert: You can't say background-position: 10px7px
15:34:24 <dbaron> (some examples that went by too fast)
15:34:36 <dbaron> (Haakon shows the grammar for calc() in the css3-values draft)
15:35:17 <dbaron> Peter: You can have "7px + -4px"
15:35:30 <dbaron> Haakon: So these spaces here are significant?
15:35:33 <dbaron> Bert: Some of them are.
15:35:41 <dbaron> Peter: Can you nest calc()?
15:35:42 <dbaron> Bert: no
15:36:07 <dbaron> Bert: Seems kind of pointless.
15:36:28 <dbaron> Peter: It's unintuitive to a user to require spaces around - but not around / or *.
15:37:32 <fantasai> Elika: It does match the order of operations :)
15:37:55 <dbaron> (Ben Millard enters, discussion changes to ARIA meeting.)
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15:39:31 <dbaron> Peter: Should require space around all arithmetic operators.
15:39:38 <dbaron> David: Maybe just + and -?
15:39:41 <dbaron> Peter: No, all
15:39:42 <dbaron> David: ok
15:39:47 <glazou> hum hum http://tech.slashdot.org/tech/08/10/20/1352205.shtml
15:39:49 <dbaron> Elika: Does that require changing the tokenization?
15:39:52 <dbaron> Various: no
15:40:29 <dbaron> Peter: add parens to change order of ops?
15:40:34 <dbaron> Various: They're already there.
15:41:15 <dbaron> David: Any additional requirement for spaces around paretheses?
15:41:17 <dbaron> Peter: no
15:41:34 <dbaron> Elika: Do we want % rather than mod now that we have spaces?
15:41:42 <dbaron> Haakon: no
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15:42:04 <glazou> looking
15:42:37 <glazou> thx
15:42:49 <dbaron> Topic: GCPM
15:42:50 <fantasai> RESOLVED: spaces around arithmetic operators in calc(), not required /by/ parentheses, ut may be required outside parens due to operators)
15:43:26 <dbaron> Haakon: We're likely to have 2 implementations of a fair number of these items.  This spec is a clearinghouse for many things that possibly could go elsewhere.
15:43:48 <dbaron> Haakon: But it seems reasonable to have an advanced printing features draft.  These seem likely to be implemented mainly by batch processors.
15:44:06 <dbaron> Haakon: How do people feel about 60% of this spec going forward under this name?
15:44:16 <dbaron> Alex: Can it be separated into pieces that can be implemented separately?
15:44:23 <dbaron> Haakon: The border thing could go in the border module.
15:44:30 <dbaron> Elika: No standard for CMYK.
15:44:55 <dbaron> Elika: I think we want new counter styles in the lists module.
15:45:07 <dbaron> Elika: That means lists module requires an owner.
15:45:20 <dbaron> Haakon: I would actually remove a lot of the lists.
15:45:31 <dbaron> Haakon: And then I would define them using the symbols() syntax.
15:45:42 <dbaron> Elika: A lot of the numbering styles don't follow that pattern.
15:46:10 <dbaron> Haakon: You're putting overhead on the implementations if you have all those lists.
15:46:42 <dbaron> Alex: I also have some concern about footnotes.  This definition is very general; it's not necessarily how we'll do it if we eventually implement footnotes.
15:46:48 <dbaron> Alex: Maybe footnotes could be a separate spec?
15:46:53 <dbaron> Haakon: That has overhead.
15:47:49 <dbaron> Haakon: I added this section about "Footnote magic"
15:48:20 <dbaron> Bert: Leaders and hyphenation don't belong here.
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15:48:38 <dbaron> Hakon: Generated content?
15:49:02 <glazou> hey melinda
15:49:13 <dbaron> Alex: Can it become paged media level 4?
15:49:29 <dbaron> Elika: Modules can progress independently.
15:49:32 <melinda> Hey, Daniel.
15:50:34 <dbaron> (discussion of spec progress, and lack thereof)
15:50:59 <fantasai> hey Melinda, we discussed multicol today, didn't get to paged media. on gcpm right now
15:51:07 <dbaron> Peter: I think we're done for the day.
15:51:09 <melinda> k, thx
15:52:11 <dbaron> Haakon: TOCs, and the 'prototype*' properties
15:52:49 <dbaron> Haakon: Generate content and insert into glossary, TOC, ...
15:52:53 <dbaron> Daniel: S-T-T-What?
15:53:23 <dbaron> Bert: What locale for sorting?
15:53:42 <dbaron> Haakon: I'm looking for somebody to do an implementation in perl or something to see if it works.
15:53:55 <dbaron> Haakon: This is among the parts I'd chop off if we were to progress?
15:54:35 <dbaron> Ben Millard: I've studied how authors mark up TOCs in HTML currently... some use OL, some use UL, some use P/BR with &nbsp;s, etc.  Authors aren't clear on markup, so could be positive feeling on how to do from CSS.
15:54:39 <glazou> STTS RULEZ !!!!!
15:55:22 <dbaron> Elika: OL is the right markup, styling not good enough.
15:55:26 <dbaron> David: We need ::marker
15:55:31 <dbaron> (Hixie enters.)
15:55:40 <dbaron> Haakon: Can you fix the z-index issue?
15:55:59 <dbaron> Peter: OK, z-index first thing tomorrow, then.
15:56:05 <dbaron> Haakon: I have another issue about the page counter.
15:57:31 <glazou> Bert: hey, that would be a too simple and intuitive solution :-)
15:58:41 <dbaron> David: We also need counters work for the HTML5 header algorithm, counter-set that doesn't create a new scope might solve it.
15:58:57 <dbaron> Elika: We can probably do an LC of backgrounds & borders this year.
15:59:12 <glazou> ======= adjourn ===========
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