IRC log of css on 2008-10-19

Timestamps are in UTC.

07:16:06 [RRSAgent]
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07:16:06 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/10/19-css-irc
07:22:36 [anne]
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07:35:57 [dbaron]
ScribeNick: dbaron
07:36:00 [dbaron]
Scribe: David Baron
07:36:03 [glazou]
http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/mandelieu-2008
07:36:06 [dbaron]
Meeting: CSS Working Group Face-to-Face meeting
07:36:17 [dbaron]
Topic: Agenda
07:36:39 [dbaron]
Daniel: I just posted wiki URL. Request to discuss CSS2 system colors with another WG, probably tomorrow morning.
07:36:58 [dbaron]
Daniel: Who is attending conflicting meetings?
07:37:04 [dbaron]
Steve: I'm chairing another meeting on Tuesday.
07:37:16 [dbaron]
Anne: I have Web Apps Monday and Tuesday; I'll try to alternate, but both don't have an agenda yet.
07:37:41 [dbaron]
Daniel: To those who won't be here Monday/Tuesday, anything you want discussed today?
07:38:10 [dbaron]
Anne: I want to attend the cross-WG one listed at the bottom of the page ("User control over UI").
07:38:30 [dbaron]
Anne: "Special behavior of BODY" we could do, but it should be trivial.
07:39:10 [dbaron]
Steve: My preference is that things like syntax and selectors occur on Tuesday.
07:39:13 [dbaron]
Elika: Melinda wants paged media on Tuesday.
07:39:40 [dbaron]
Steve: Although I'd prefer paged media not on Tuesday.
07:40:53 [dbaron]
Anne: Dean Jackson wanted to discuss Apple proposals... he's not here now.
07:40:57 [dbaron]
Daniel: maybe Monday
07:41:52 [dbaron]
Anne: We'd like it as well, and Mozilla has implemented parts of it.
07:42:50 [dbaron]
Daniel: <goes rapidly over list of topics>
07:43:24 [dbaron]
Daniel: While everybody is here, we should probably discuss 2 things: (1) next f2f meetings
07:43:26 [fantasai]
Topic: F2Fs next year
07:44:06 [dbaron]
Peter: I'd like 4 2-day meetings.
07:44:15 [dbaron]
Elika: ...
07:44:27 [dbaron]
Steve: I think 3 3-day is more practical... especially given travel budgets.
07:44:30 [fantasai]
Elika: That's tough for people travelling from far away
07:44:32 [dbaron]
Daniel: What time of year?
07:44:35 [alexmog]
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07:44:38 [fantasai]
Elika: It takes a couple days just to adjust to the new time zone
07:45:02 [fantasai]
David: One issue we've had the past few years is that we've put the summer meeting late in the summer and thus very close to the fall meeting
07:45:20 [dbaron]
Daniel: We could do February, June, November...
07:46:36 [dbaron]
John: Can't confirm for sure, but could do one in Tokyo.
07:48:59 [dbaron]
(February)
07:49:04 [dbaron]
?: Sophia-Antipolis in June?
07:49:11 [dbaron]
Bert: My holidays are first half of June.
07:50:09 [dbaron]
RRSAgent, make logs public
07:50:23 [dbaron]
Daniel: And TPAC in October/November.
07:50:54 [sylvaing]
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07:51:06 [dbaron]
Daniel: Either Boston or Santa Clara.
07:51:53 [dbaron]
Daniel: Let us know about days that are bad in Feb/Mar and late June.
07:52:00 [dbaron]
Elika: I can't do second half of March.
07:52:45 [dbaron]
Steve: Week of President's Day (US) can be a good week.
07:54:04 [dbaron]
Daniel: I think Haakon may have offered to host in Oslo...
07:54:50 [dbaron]
Daniel: Tentative plan is Tokyo in Feb/Mar, Sophia-Antipolis in June, TPAC in US in Oct/Nov.
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07:55:41 [fantasai]
Daniel needs to check school vacation calendar, prefers to be home 25th of Feb
07:55:44 [dbaron]
Daniel: I'd like to be home 25 Feb.
07:56:03 [fantasai]
Anne: No constraints
07:56:27 [fantasai]
Bert: First 2 weeks of June
07:56:31 [fantasai]
Bert: can't do
07:56:52 [fantasai]
Steve: June is difficult, but I can probably work around it
07:57:22 [fantasai]
Daniel: I prefer after March 2nd
07:57:38 [fantasai]
Alex: MSFT March 18-20 not a good time
07:57:54 [fantasai]
David: I have a weak preference for avoiding US Government holidays
07:58:44 [fantasai]
Peter: no constraints
07:58:48 [fantasai]
John: no constraints
07:58:53 [fantasai]
Elika: Not second half of March
07:59:33 [fantasai]
Alex: Also SxSW is March 13-22
08:01:32 [fantasai]
Discussing dates in June
08:01:43 [fantasai]
Steve prefers week of 22n-26
08:02:54 [fantasai]
Bert is returning on the 23rd
08:04:37 [fantasai]
Elika: I can't do May 29-June1
08:06:18 [fantasai]
Daniel: So, target 24-25-26 June 2009
08:06:44 [fantasai]
Daniel: Target for 1st meeting, 2 first weeks of March
08:07:13 [fantasai]
ACTION: glazou email w3c-css-wg with proposed dates and ask for comments/constraints
08:07:13 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-113 - Email w3c-css-wg with proposed dates and ask for comments/constraints [on Daniel Glazman - due 2008-10-26].
08:07:37 [dbaron]
Topic: Keeping web designers involved as invited experts
08:07:38 [fantasai]
Topic: Web Designers as Invited Experts
08:07:50 [fantasai]
Daniel: Jason Cranford Teague has left the WG
08:08:16 [fantasai]
Daniel: Since his perpsective is exteremely valuable, we wanted to propose to keep him as an Invited Expert to the WG
08:08:41 [fantasai]
Daniel: This raises an issue because AOL is the kind of company that could join the WG, but they are leaving the WG
08:08:59 [fantasai]
Daniel: Jason was never really representing AOL as much as himself and the web designers, so I think it makes sense
08:09:20 [fantasai]
Daniel: I understand from a W3C Process point of view it's difficult, but we really need web designers
08:09:52 [fantasai]
Steve: I would support that. I agree that Jason's contributions are from the perspective of a designer, but I think the precedent it establishes in W3C is potentially dangerous
08:10:14 [fantasai]
John: People who are very hard are people who are technically oriented, but ...
08:10:46 [fantasai]
John: A lot of issues break down to implementation issues, there has to be a balance between making an implementation consistent etc. and what will make it useful and easy for designers
08:11:19 [fantasai]
Daniel: That's a difficulty in this WG. A trivial proposal, a one-liner, can be extremely difficult to implement and most web designers don't understand that
08:11:32 [fantasai]
Daniel: Jason says he has time
08:12:11 [fantasai]
Bert: Has to pass Morrow and W3CM. He's clearly an AOL employee
08:12:21 [fantasai]
Bert and Steve want him here, but are concerned about process stuff
08:12:22 [glazou]
Mauro
08:12:29 [dbaron]
s/Morrow/Mauro/
08:12:46 [dbaron]
Elika: Other people?
08:13:25 [dbaron]
Daniel: We already had this discussion... remember failure of CSS 11?
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08:16:05 [fantasai]
Daniel: ... strictly speaking, it is difficult to make Jason an official Invited Expert
08:16:20 [fantasai]
Daniel: but almost everything we do here is public, so he can still contribute
08:16:35 [fantasai]
Steve: We have to be careful about IPR
08:19:29 [dbaron]
(various discussion)
08:20:56 [fantasai]
Topic: Margin Collapsing
08:21:03 [fantasai]
Bert: Was wondering about margin collapsing in vertical
08:21:30 [fantasai]
Bert: If you have a vertical block inside a horizontal one
08:21:39 [fantasai]
Alex: That's a yes-or-no question. In our implementation they do collapse
08:22:16 [fantasai]
David: You'd be making a new block formatting context
08:22:24 [dbaron]
(break)
08:23:49 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: make a new block formatting context when block direction switches, margins outside the bfc do collapse
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08:58:19 [dbaron]
Topic: Special behavior of BODY
08:59:25 [dbaron]
Daniel: Proposal by Simon Pieters is to make the body element in XHTML magic just like in HTML.
09:01:04 [mib_apftg8]
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09:01:43 [dbaron]
Anne: Was partly implemented per spec, marked at risk, implementations shifted back.
09:01:57 [fantasai]
David: Originally everyone did what simon is proposing
09:02:07 [fantasai]
David: Then the XHTML WG asked us to make this change, and some browsers followed
09:02:18 [fantasai]
David: There are two different quirks. One for background, one for overflow
09:02:24 [fantasai]
David: I think Mozilla followed both briefly
09:02:30 [fantasai]
David: Webkit followed one but not the other
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09:02:46 [fantasai]
David: So we didn't have two implementations of both
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09:02:52 [fantasai]
David: so we marked it at risk
09:03:08 [fantasai]
David: Mozilla, Opera, and Webkit currently treat HTML body and XHTML body the same way
09:03:16 [fantasai]
David: And simon has a test suite for this quirk stuff
09:04:10 [dbaron]
Elika: Can we get these tests in the 2.1 test suite?
09:04:28 [fantasai]
Elika: Anne, make sure they're in the right format and check them into svn?
09:04:52 [dbaron]
David: HTML5 spec wants HTML and XHTML to be treated the same; don't know that it's been discussed in WG.
09:05:37 [dbaron]
Alex: We don't do XHTML yet; would be easiest to not do anything special for XHTML.
09:05:53 [dbaron]
Daniel: That sounds like a consensus?
09:06:07 [dbaron]
Bert: I'd rather do the other way around, but...
09:06:20 [dbaron]
Bert: I think it's ugly but it doesn't break anything.
09:06:31 [dbaron]
Daniel: And it helps people who want to convert a Web page from HTML4 to XHTML.
09:06:42 [dbaron]
Bert: But harder to convert to Docbook or other things.
09:06:51 [dbaron]
Bert: I don't like it, but I don't think it's dangerous, just ugly.
09:07:15 [dbaron]
Peter: I'd almost like to see a way of declaring in CSS that element N should have this behavior.
09:07:34 [dbaron]
Anne: Seems too obscure to complicate the language.
09:07:46 [dbaron]
Elika: Seems like a quirk that we just have to deal with for HTML.
09:07:59 [dbaron]
Elika: It's there because of backwards-compatibility, not because it's useful.
09:08:37 [dbaron]
Bert: But what happens if people create new formats that reuse parts of HTML?
09:08:52 [dbaron]
Anne: If it's in the HTML namespace, then it will have the same special behavior.
09:09:17 [dbaron]
Anne: ... if it meets all the requirements of being a body (second child of HTML element, or something...).
09:10:26 [dbaron]
Daniel: The BODY is mandatory; you can't remove it.
09:10:33 [dbaron]
David: You can remove it through the DOM.
09:12:03 [dbaron]
(discussion)
09:12:21 [dbaron]
David: We don't want to get into the discussion of what an HTML document is for the DOM.
09:12:56 [dbaron]
Steve: If it's invalid, then interoperability is irrelevant.
09:13:09 [dbaron]
Anne: You're confusing authoring requirements and user-agent requiremnets.
09:15:06 [dbaron]
(discussion of HTML and DOM issues)
09:15:58 [dbaron]
s/requiremnets/requirements/
09:21:03 [dbaron]
Alex: Any concern about describing behavior of invalid documents?
09:21:14 [dbaron]
Anne: Not at all unusual... e.g., style sheets missing closing }
09:22:17 [dbaron]
Daniel: I abstain (no objection).
09:22:26 [dbaron]
Anne, Elika, David, Alex: in favor
09:23:23 [dbaron]
Anne: We should separate user-agent requirements and authoring requirements.
09:23:27 [dbaron]
(in response to comment by Alex)
09:23:31 [dbaron]
Daniel: ok, resolved.
09:23:57 [anne]
http://www.w3.org/Style/css2-updates/issues-4-20061106.html#issue-31
09:24:06 [dbaron]
RESOLVED: accept proposal in http://www.w3.org/Style/css2-updates/issues-4-20061106.html#issue-31
09:27:23 [dbaron]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2007Mar/0035.html
09:28:20 [Zakim]
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09:28:55 [fantasai]
http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-80
09:29:16 [dbaron]
(Were we accepting the 17.5 changes as well?)
09:31:13 [fantasai]
http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css2.1#issue-79
09:31:59 [dbaron]
RESOLVED: accept proposal in http://www.w3.org/Style/css2-updates/issues-4-20061106.html#issue-31 (chapters 11 and 14 parts)
09:32:23 [dbaron]
Topic: Margin collapsing (issue 79)
09:33:00 [dbaron]
Alex: When min-height has an effect, it prevents the bottom margin of the element from collapsing with the bottom margin of its last child.
09:33:05 [dbaron]
Alex: What exactly does this mean?
09:34:02 [dbaron]
Alex: Does it mean that the element's height is exactly the min-height, or bigger?
09:34:10 [fantasai]
ScribeNick: fantasai
09:34:17 [fantasai]
Alex draws a blue rectangle.
09:34:27 [fantasai]
Alex: Here we have a parent with some margin, and it has a child with some other margin
09:34:32 [fantasai]
Alex draws a short margin below the blue box
09:34:47 [fantasai]
Alex draws a red box inside the blue box, with a large margin that extends outside the box
09:35:42 [fantasai]
Alex: If the height was not specified, the parent would be as big as its child, and their margins would collapse, and the box after it (Alex draws a green box below the margin)
09:35:47 [fantasai]
would be after the collapsed margin.
09:36:05 [fantasai]
Alex: What's going to happen if we add a min-height that is bigger than the natural height?
09:36:16 [fantasai]
Alex: The parent box would grow
09:36:27 [fantasai]
Alex: but the margins no longer collapse
09:36:33 [fantasai]
s/margins/bottom margins/
09:36:40 [fantasai]
Alex: What happens to the margins?
09:36:44 [fantasai]
Alex: We have two options
09:36:53 [fantasai]
Alex: We treat the min-height as height,
09:37:05 [fantasai]
Alex: which causes us to ignore the bottom margin of the child
09:37:20 [fantasai]
Alex: which means the effective margin is much smaller than before, and the green box moves higher
09:38:10 [fantasai]
Alex: the other option is for the child's margin to be included in the parent's content box
09:38:27 [fantasai]
Alex: so the parent box grows bigger than the min-height in order to contain the margin
09:38:41 [fantasai]
Alex: and this is another interpretation of not collapsing the margins
09:39:00 [fantasai]
Alex: I have two options here. I could go with Firefox's behavior (the former) which is the easiest to implement
09:39:13 [fantasai]
Alex: Other option is to do the second option, which requires redoing size computation
09:39:55 [fantasai]
David: You'd have a discontinuity
09:40:00 [fantasai]
Elika: You have one in both cases
09:40:11 [dbaron]
http://dbaron.org/css/test/2008/min-height-margin-collapse
09:40:15 [fantasai]
Elika: In FF's case the green box jumps up once min-height takes effect
09:41:23 [fantasai]
We look at dbaron's testcase
09:41:32 [fantasai]
Alex: In this case it can become 200px or 400px
09:41:40 [fantasai]
Alex: That would be the difference between the different options
09:42:32 [fantasai]
Alex: Once the bottom margin doesn't collapse anymore, then you lose the distance between the bottom of this box and the next box
09:42:32 [glazou]
(observer is Hartmut Glaser from NIC.br)
09:43:02 [fantasai]
David: It seems to me that it should be 200px high but you should have a 200px margin as well
09:44:01 [fantasai]
Elika: That wouldn't make sense if the parent's min-height would contain its child including its margin
09:45:10 [fantasai]
Peter: What I don't want to see is the margin collapsing of the child change behavior based on whether the min-height is applying in this scenario...
09:45:25 [fantasai]
Peter actually said something about large margins appearing and disappearing mysteriously
09:45:31 [fantasai]
when you hit a discontinuity point
09:46:05 [fantasai]
...
09:46:39 [fantasai]
David: In Oslo in 2003 we rewrote margin collapsing, and I didn't like that we introduced a discontinuity. We had a big discusison on how clearance, margin collapsing, and height computation
09:46:43 [fantasai]
interact
09:47:52 [fantasai]
Peter: If the height of an elemetn depends on the viewport width and resizing the window causes a giant margin to appear and disappear, nobody is going to be happy with that result
09:48:41 [fantasai]
Alex: So I think we should include the margin in the parent's height
09:49:14 [fantasai]
Steve: I realize the agreements reached in Oslo are very fragile, would doing what Alex says break those agreements?
09:49:29 [fantasai]
David: No
09:50:26 [fantasai]
Anne: So it seems all browsers are doing different things
09:53:25 [fantasai]
....
09:54:43 [fantasai]
Alex: we could do Opera's solution (collapse the bottom borders even in the presence of min-height)
09:55:00 [fantasai]
Elika: That would not make sense if the min-height is big enough to contain the margin
09:55:45 [fantasai]
Alex: but its behavior is continuous
09:56:15 [fantasai]
Discussion about what is intuitive
09:56:23 [fantasai]
Steve: It really bothers me that we don't have any designers here
09:57:15 [fantasai]
Steve: At least Alex's proposal is consistent with what happens when margin collapsing is turned off elsewhere
09:58:05 [fantasai]
David: I think from a designer's pov parent-child margin collapsign was a mistake
09:58:13 [fantasai]
Peter: There are cases where it makes esnes from a designer's pov
09:59:00 [fantasai]
Peter: what doesn't make sense is the margin collapsing turning on and off for inexplicable reasons
09:59:44 [fantasai]
...
10:00:20 [fantasai]
Peter: The margin of a box should not begin somewhere far below the box, it should always be attached
10:00:31 [fantasai]
Elika: You're asking for partial collapsing
10:00:39 [fantasai]
David: THat's what we decided never to do in Oslo
10:01:11 [fantasai]
...
10:01:23 [fantasai]
Alex: Let's suppose the next element has a top margin of 300px, what will that margin collapse with?
10:01:40 [fantasai]
Steve: It shouldn't make any difference, it will collapse with the collapsed result of what we get here
10:03:08 [fantasai]
Steve tries to explain the margin collapsing model
10:04:40 [fantasai]
Bert: What about when we introduce vertical-alignment?
10:04:58 [fantasai]
Elika: We decided that that would create a new block formatting context, then you wouldn't collapse the parent and child margins
10:06:16 [fantasai]
Alex: ... partial collapsing
10:06:23 [glazou]
(sorry for the phone call, it's was my plumber, and no his name is NOT Joe :-)
10:06:45 [fantasai]
Bert: That was the original intention, that you take the lowest of the bottom of the relevant margins
10:07:22 [fantasai]
Anne: Is it really worth making margin collapsing that much more complicated?
10:09:15 [fantasai]
discussion of usage of margins
10:09:40 [fantasai]
Margin collapsing is designed not for layout, but for when you have a continuous flow of content: headings, paragraphs, etc
10:10:11 [fantasai]
Elika; We have several options here, let's list them
10:10:24 [fantasai]
A. Firefox's behavior, which to truncate to min-height
10:10:35 [fantasai]
and ignore the child margin
10:10:56 [fantasai]
B. Alex' 1st proposal, which is to growt include the child and min-height
10:11:28 [fantasai]
C. Opera behavior: collapse margins, then apply min-height
10:11:34 [fantasai]
D. Define partial collapsing
10:12:36 [fantasai]
David: I don't think it's really partial collapsing that you want to define, it's putting the edge of an element in the middle of a margin collapse
10:12:47 [fantasai]
David: But that's really a huge change at this point
10:12:56 [fantasai]
Steve: Are there other cases where this happens?
10:13:04 [fantasai]
David, Bert: THere are other cases with clear where something like this happens.
10:13:15 [fantasai]
David: THe concept of clearance was created in the discussion I'm talking about
10:13:40 [fantasai]
David: Before 2003 clearance didn't exist, clear just added a margin which then collapsed
10:14:15 [dbaron]
It's not really partial collapsing -- it's making the top/bottom edge of an element be in the middle of its margin
10:14:30 [dbaron]
but that's what we decided to avoid in 2003.
10:14:50 [fantasai]
Alex: but floats...
10:15:03 [fantasai]
David: We ended up saying that the position of a float can be in one of these places
10:15:12 [dbaron]
To be clear, I really don't want to change the big stuff (i.e., go with (D)) at this point.
10:16:04 [fantasai]
Elika: Do we have consensus on eliminating D?
10:16:27 [fantasai]
Steve: No, because that's what would make the most sense from a designer's perspective
10:17:01 [fantasai]
Alex: Min-height is as currently specified has a side-effect on margin collapsing that is not intuitive to the designer
10:17:17 [fantasai]
Steve: I'm trying to think of reasons why a designer would set min-height
10:17:31 [fantasai]
Alex: Let's try to come up with examples
10:17:50 [fantasai]
Alex: maybe I have business cards, and I set min-width min-height to 2/3
10:18:04 [fantasai]
Alex: so if someone's card has more info at least it shows
10:18:33 [fantasai]
Steve: in that case I wouldn't want the child margins to spill outside the box
10:19:35 [fantasai]
Alex: Say I have a series of paragraphs and a div around some of them
10:20:01 [fantasai]
Alex: Don't want setting min-height to make the margins between the apragraphs to disappear
10:20:12 [dbaron]
E. Say min-height != 0 always prevents collapsing.
10:21:27 [fantasai]
Daniel: I use min-height all the time.
10:21:42 [fantasai]
Daniel: I have a <pre>, and I want a minimum height for my code box
10:22:30 [dbaron]
Designers aren't really using min-height in the wild because of IE support, I think.
10:24:20 [fantasai]
everybody has a different idea of what designers would want for min-height and margin collapsing
10:24:30 [fantasai]
fantasai posts to twitter and gives up trying to minute
10:25:45 [fantasai]
Discuss dbaron's option E
10:25:57 [fantasai]
Alex: That's what IE8 impelements, and I'm not convinced it's more intuitive
10:26:23 [fantasai]
Alex: Min-height normally doesn't have any effect when the min-height is very small
10:28:21 [fantasai]
David: Using min-height along with an auto height has two uses
10:28:58 [fantasai]
David: You're sayin to use the maximum of the content height and the given min-height
10:29:09 [fantasai]
David: We dont' know which is going to be the normal case, it's different fro different uses
10:29:33 [anne]
(in the case where you really want to use the margin of the parent you just use parent > :last-child { margin-bottom:0 } )
10:29:36 [fantasai]
in some cases your base case using the content height, and the min-height is an exception
10:30:13 [fantasai]
and in other cases your base case is the min-height, and the content height is the exception (for when there's too much content)
10:30:28 [fantasai]
fantasai thinks that david baron's point here is really important!!!
10:34:51 [dbaron]
So one other question is whether we want there to be differences between "height: auto; min-height: 200px" and "min-height: min-content; height: 200px"
10:40:00 [fantasai]
Steve: We remove the line that says min-height turns margin collapsing off.
10:40:21 [fantasai]
Steve: Then we still have the question of how margin collapsing behaves when it's on and min-height has an effect
10:41:28 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: min-height does not turn off margin collapsing
10:41:39 [fantasai]
fantasai is skeptical and reserves judgement
10:43:16 [fantasai]
LUNCH
11:46:51 [jdaggett]
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11:59:31 [shepazu]
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12:00:39 [jdaggett]
shepazu: http://wiki.csswg.org/planning/mandelieu-2008
12:02:37 [shepazu]
thanks, jdaggett
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This is a test
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ScribeNick: SteveZ
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Issue: CSS2.1 issue 60 - Z index
12:12:45 [trackbot]
Created ISSUE-68 - CSS2.1 issue 60 - Z index ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/issues/68/edit .
12:12:45 [fantasai]
Elika: Issue #60 is that Appendix E conflicts with chapter 9 in the CSS2.1 text
12:15:08 [fantasai]
http://dev.moonhenge.net/css21/spec/z-index/
12:15:48 [SteveZ]
Start with 2.1. Stacking context–like behaviour
12:16:00 [dbaron]
s/Issue:/Topic:/
12:20:48 [SteveZ]
This topic is postponed until tomorrow
12:21:13 [SteveZ]
so that Hixie can participate
12:22:29 [SteveZ]
Topic: Value pseudo attribute
12:23:39 [SteveZ]
DB: this came out of discussion on WhatWG list
12:24:18 [SteveZ]
DB: there was a proposal to have text (specially identified) that can be typed over
12:24:43 [SteveZ]
DB: Styling should specify how that text is specially identified
12:25:01 [SteveZ]
DB: this is attribute like, but not actually an attribute
12:25:19 [SteveZ]
AvK: This is sort of like a DOM attribute
12:25:46 [SteveZ]
AvK: it seems to apply to placeholders
12:26:07 [SteveZ]
DB: you could combine it with the focus selector
12:26:31 [fantasai]
http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2008-October/016544.html
12:26:34 [anne]
WebKit has implemented :-webkit-placeholder for this case. That works for focusing the input control as well and such.
12:26:59 [dbaron]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Oct/0144.html
12:27:11 [dbaron]
but it would actually need input[:value=""]:not(:focus)
12:27:24 [SteveZ]
DG: I was wrong to complain that it would be difficult to internationalize because this applies only to the content of an attribute
12:28:24 [SteveZ]
AvK: When this facility (sample text) is added to HTML, then having a placeholder pseudo element would make sense
12:30:49 [SteveZ]
BB: I find that having the placeholder disappear when a partial selection is done disturbing; I want to be able to select the text and cut it and paste it
12:31:33 [SteveZ]
BB: the above point is really an HTML not a CSS point
12:31:45 [fantasai]
Topic: Selectors
12:32:35 [SteveZ]
Does the current Hover element apply to the parent if the child is outside of the display space of the parent
12:33:22 [fantasai]
http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/issues/65
12:34:03 [anne]
test
12:34:03 [SteveZ]
DG: e.g. a child element is relatively positioned outside its structural parent
12:34:03 [anne]
http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Cstyle%3E%20div%3Ahover%20%7B%20background%3Ayellow%20!important%20%7D%20%3C%2Fstyle%3E%0D%0A...%3Cdiv%20style%3Dheight%3A50px%3Bwidth%3A50px%3Bbackground%3Alime%3E%0D%0A%3Cdiv%20style%3Dheight%3A50px%3Bwidth%3A50px%3Bbackground%3Ared%3Bposition%3Aabsolute%3Btop%3A40px%3Bleft%3A100px%3E%3C%2Fdiv%3E%0D%0A%3C%2Fdiv%3E
12:34:11 [anne]
(that test tests the behavior)
12:34:16 [anne]
(being discussed)
12:34:53 [SteveZ]
DG: all browsers do selection of the parent
12:35:53 [SteveZ]
AM: I have an example where I show help text outside the button to which it applies and I want the hover to stay on if the cursor moves over the help text
12:36:32 [SteveZ]
AvK: There are other examples which depend on this behavior
12:37:24 [SteveZ]
DG: I want to be sure that the specification will make clear what a user should expect; in particular, that it is not just the physical position of the cursor that triggers hover behavior.
12:37:48 [SteveZ]
DG and EE: this probably needs a note in the spec
12:38:33 [SteveZ]
DB: you figure out which element would receive the event and that element and all its ancestors are in the hover state
12:39:29 [SteveZ]
DB: you have to keep compatibility with hovering over a link or any of its descendents will keep the link in the hover state
12:40:37 [SteveZ]
PL: we should define the hover processing in terms of event processing and accept that the specs that define event processing will say what elements are affected
12:41:43 [SteveZ]
DB: the behavior of events on hidden elements is not consistent across browsers
12:42:15 [SteveZ]
DB: SVG has a property called "pointer events" that may make sense to adopt at some point
12:42:57 [SteveZ]
DB: right now this is massively undefined in the selector spec; I would favor more specification as would PL
12:43:52 [SteveZ]
AvK: Say when the element is in "the hover state" (as defined by some spec) then the behavior is ....
12:44:13 [SteveZ]
DB and EE: but is there a spec that defines "the hover state"
12:45:00 [SteveZ]
DB: We can define things in terms of DOM level 2 events (a REC)
12:46:29 [SteveZ]
DB: we are leaving the hit testing definition to some other spec, but we can define the rest now
12:46:52 [SteveZ]
DB: why are we changing only hover and not "active"
12:47:11 [SteveZ]
EE: "active" is not well defined
12:47:50 [SteveZ]
EE: in IE an element remains active even after a click is released
12:47:59 [SteveZ]
AM: this works on the iPhone
12:48:33 [SteveZ]
PL: thie activity persists during a load, but not forever.
12:49:18 [SteveZ]
DB: does it matter that browsers have different behaviors for "active"
12:49:30 [SteveZ]
EE: the differences are so subtle that it is OK
12:50:27 [SteveZ]
DB: I am OK with differing when something begins being active and ends being active, but not with not saying whether the ancestors are active or not
12:51:28 [SteveZ]
EE: I would say that "active" does not propogate up; e.g. clicking on something (a span) inside an anchor makes only the span active
12:51:33 [anne]
data:text/xml,<html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><style> a:active { background:lime }</style><a href="test">a<a href="test">b<a href="test">c</a></a></a></html>
12:52:18 [SteveZ]
AvK: active only applies to the element being activated is active, but in Mozilla and Webkit the ancestors are active as well
12:52:55 [SteveZ]
AvK: I thnk that in Firefox, nested links have some anomolies in behavior
12:53:45 [SteveZ]
EE: CSS does not define what elements get activated or for how long
12:54:38 [fantasai]
or what triggers the activation
12:55:09 [SteveZ]
DB: current spec says "while it is being activated" not "while it is active".
12:55:33 [fantasai]
EE: e.g. clicking on something (a span) inside an anchor makes only the *anchor* active (not the span)
12:56:04 [fantasai]
EE: and clicking on a triple-nested link should only apply :active to the link that's been activated
12:56:20 [SteveZ]
DB: not sure that this is something that should be defined differently in different specs
12:56:50 [shepazu]
SCXML and the SMIL State module define state (but I don't know if they are compatible with each other, much less what CSS would mean by "state")
12:56:52 [SteveZ]
DS: (Doug Schepers): there are two specs that define states: SMIL and an SVG spec
12:57:09 [shepazu]
s/SVG spec/MMI spec/
12:57:13 [dbaron]
ScribeNick: dbaron
12:57:39 [dbaron]
EE: So we want text for the :hover issue.
12:57:49 [glazou]
s/we/I
12:58:22 [dbaron]
EE: I'm ok with saying that the parent of an element that's :active is not necessarily :active, but that :hover is propagated to ancestors.
12:58:58 [anne]
data:text/xml testcase as link http://annevankesteren.nl/test/css/temp/003.xml
13:00:22 [dbaron]
BB: Leave it undefined for :active because we don't know what elements can be activated.
13:00:44 [anne]
So I said that Opera activates the innermost link, where Firefox activates the outermost
13:00:45 [dbaron]
DB: ?
13:00:52 [dbaron]
DG: The original issue was just this one clarification.
13:00:59 [dbaron]
DB: But it was a clarification about something that's explicitly undefined.
13:01:05 [dbaron]
ScribeNick: SteveZ
13:01:13 [anne]
And that what Opera does is currently specified in HTML5 and probably matches what IE does (you can test using submit buttons and links)
13:01:29 [SteveZ]
BB: if an ancestor has a hover selector does that block propogation?
13:01:55 [SteveZ]
PL: no, the existance of selectors is indpendent of event propogation
13:02:43 [SteveZ]
BB: if you have two ancestors with pop-ups on hover, you will get both unless the first one blocks propogation
13:03:54 [fantasai]
proposal: t
13:04:04 [fantasai]
If an element that is ':hover' causes its parent to
13:04:04 [fantasai]
be in ':hover', then it is possible for an element that is not underneath
13:04:05 [fantasai]
the pointing device is in ':hover'.
13:05:27 [fantasai]
If an element that is ':hover' causes its parent to
13:05:27 [fantasai]
be ':hover', then it is possible for an element that is not underneath
13:05:27 [fantasai]
the pointing device to be ':hover'.
13:06:19 [glazou]
if :hover applies to an element causes :hover apply to the parent element, then it's possible :hover applies to an element that is not underneath the pointing device
13:08:53 [SteveZ]
BB: the typical use case for "hover" is to indicate what can be activated so only the things that can be activated should be in hover; not all ancestors
13:08:53 [fantasai]
If it's possible for ':hover' to apply to an element because its
13:08:53 [fantasai]
child is designated by a pointing device, then it's possible for
13:08:53 [fantasai]
':hover' to apply to an element that is not underneat the pointing
13:08:53 [fantasai]
device.
13:08:58 [fantasai]
If it's possible for ':hover' to apply to an element because its
13:08:58 [fantasai]
child is designated by a pointing device, then it's possible for
13:08:58 [fantasai]
':hover' to apply to an element that is not underneat the pointing
13:08:58 [fantasai]
device.
13:10:20 [SteveZ]
DB: the WG did not resolve that hover was heirarchical but with IE8 all implementations seem to make it hierarchical
13:10:45 [SteveZ]
N.B. the above text by fantasai is intended as a NOTE
13:11:03 [fantasai]
checked in
13:11:33 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: proposal above accepted
13:11:57 [dbaron]
http://dbaron.org/css/test/sec051103b is a testcase for hierarchical :hover
13:12:19 [dbaron]
(and :active)
13:12:35 [SteveZ]
Topic: Grammer for an+b for nth child
13:15:42 [SteveZ]
DG: although whether hover applies to ancestors is officially undefined; millions of websites would break if it were otherwise defined
13:16:23 [shepazu]
I'd just like to note that you could define "hovered" as being defined by the host language
13:16:40 [glazou]
http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/issues/66
13:16:44 [shepazu]
then it's out of the CSS's problem
13:17:06 [shepazu]
s/out of /not /
13:19:28 [dbaron]
You want the n, the even, and the odd to be written using the {n}, {o}, etc. productions from the grammar
13:19:35 [SteveZ]
EE: we had already resolved where white space is allowed: not between a unary operator and the integer to which it applies nor between the integer and the "n"
13:19:53 [dbaron]
and it would be nice to indent so the [] and () don't line up with the | because they look a lot like |
13:20:06 [SteveZ]
DB: the odd and even need to be case insensitive
13:20:56 [SteveZ]
DG: the 'n' is escapable, but not the "+" or "-"
13:21:04 [dbaron]
(since units are escapable, but sign is not... right?)
13:21:47 [SteveZ]
Resoved: the proposed grammer is accepted, with the modification to allow the 'n' is escapable.
13:21:56 [fantasai]
s/Resolved/RESOLVED/
13:22:13 [SteveZ]
Topic: ::selectors
13:22:28 [dbaron]
Ah, so we haven't had the pseudo-element argument for a few years, so we need to do it again...
13:22:58 [fantasai]
http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/issues/67
13:25:24 [fantasai]
ScribeNick: fantasai
13:25:36 [fantasai]
David: Pseudo-elements have this thing where their boundaries don't line up with the tree
13:25:56 [fantasai]
David: The question is do you split the <span> into 2 pieces, or do you split the pseudo-element into 2 pieces?
13:26:06 [fantasai]
David: The current spec says you split the pseudo-element
13:26:23 [SteveZ]
DB: pseudo elements have boundaries that do not necessarily match the boundaries of the mark-up; which is split: the pseudo element or the real element?
13:26:28 [fantasai]
Daniel: Can the pseudo-element contain more than pcdata and replaced elements?
13:26:38 [fantasai]
Peter: you could have a selection, for example in the example in 67
13:27:14 [fantasai]
Peter: you can't contain the children and still be well-formed
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13:27:17 [dbaron]
The question is: Does <span>A<pseudo>B</span>C</pseudo> give the tree <span>A<pseudo>B</pseudo></span><pseudo>C</pseudo> or <span>A</span><pseudo><span>B</span>C</pseudo>?
13:27:42 [fantasai]
Peter: the HTML5 spec might say something about this, wrt malformed markup
13:28:14 [fantasai]
Peter: In this scenario, what you get with the pseudo-element should always be describable as valid tree markup
13:28:27 [fantasai]
Daniel: It's describable as a DOM range
13:28:35 [anne]
ls
13:28:42 [anne]
sorry about that
13:28:43 [fantasai]
David: The problem is that many CSS properties, including inheritance, are defined in terms of a tree
13:29:17 [fantasai]
Daniel: Question remains, do I have multiple outlines for richtext::selection?
13:29:55 [fantasai]
...
13:30:10 [fantasai]
David: What Mozilla actually implements now, I think, is something that sounds even more complicated than these two
13:30:15 [fantasai]
David: We do both
13:30:24 [fantasai]
David: We do one for the inherited properties and one for the non-inherited properties
13:30:40 [SteveZ]
DB: Mozilla implements that 3rd option: it treats the inherited and non-inherited properties
13:30:49 [fantasai]
Daniel: I wonder if we should just remove outline from the list of properties allowed?
13:30:51 [SteveZ]
differently
13:31:45 [fantasai]
David: I'm not even sure if that's quite what we do
13:31:53 [anne]
http://annevankesteren.nl/test/css/temp/004.xml
13:31:55 [fantasai]
Anne: Opera doesn't apply outline at all
13:32:06 [SteveZ]
BB: in David's solution "outline" is an outer thing so goes around the whole thing and "color" is an inner thing so it would be inside the markup elements
13:36:47 [fantasai]
Anne: It seems nobody implements outline
13:40:15 [dbaron]
Peter: What about p::selection { color: inherit } ?
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13:42:44 [SteveZ]
DB: Warning: at some point I may want to propose styling of multiple ranges
13:43:14 [SteveZ]
DB: "background" is non-inherited so its behavior would be the same as that for "outline"
13:43:28 [dbaron]
I think for ::selection it's important that the ::selection is innermost for the 'color'.
13:44:58 [SteveZ]
AvK: if there is a span::selecction it should apply; it does in Opera but not in Firefox
13:45:56 [dbaron]
With ::selection, do you ever get <p::selection><span::selection>sel</span::selection></p::selection>, or something else?
13:46:04 [glazou]
hey mollydotcom!!!!
13:46:10 [mollydotcom]
greetings all
13:46:15 [dbaron]
and how do global ::selection styles interact with that?
13:46:43 [mollydotcom]
catching up on the topic, having tea to wake up, be with you all in a bit
13:47:01 [fantasai]
David: Suppose you have a selection that includes an element that is 20 levels nested
13:47:10 [dbaron]
If you have a ::selection{} rule and your selection is in an element 20 levels nested within the tree, and your background color is rgba(255, 0, 0, 0.2), what happens?
13:47:13 [dbaron]
Do you have 20 pseudos?
13:48:02 [fantasai]
If you have p::selection and you set a color on it
13:48:16 [fantasai]
And you have a span inside the p, you want the selection inside the span to have the color you set on p::selection
13:49:26 [fantasai]
(that was dbaron, btw, not me)
13:49:39 [fantasai]
David: So this is not a tree-based approach. How do you deal with inheritance?
13:49:45 [dbaron]
p::selection { color: blue } span { color: purple; }
13:49:59 [dbaron]
<p>Text << text <span>span</span> text >> text.</p>
13:50:18 [dbaron]
we want the "span" to be blue rather than purple
13:52:03 [dbaron]
We definitely don't want to distinguish "in the selection" from "contains the selection" because it can be half and half.
13:52:18 [dbaron]
What about 'color: inherit' ?
13:54:15 [fantasai]
Peter points out that Daniel's concept of a global selection is incompatible with the idea of styling p::selection and span::selection differently
13:55:18 [fantasai]
Steve: A selection is a set of DOM ranges.
13:55:30 [fantasai]
Steve: That's the One Selection
13:55:37 [fantasai]
Steve: Then there's the issue of how to style it
13:55:47 [fantasai]
Steve: THe proposal is to style it as if the selection is not there
13:55:58 [fantasai]
Steve: Then go back and for the pieces that fall into the range, you restyle them
13:56:15 [fantasai]
Anne: That's not desired for the span case because then p::selection would not apply to the span nested inside the p
13:58:39 [fantasai]
David: I think it would help to have concrete examples
13:59:29 [SteveZ]
DG: I will come up with a list of requirements for what ::selection should and should not do
13:59:49 [SteveZ]
DG: one requirement is that we do not want nested outlines
14:00:03 [SteveZ]
DG: we want color to nest locally
14:01:26 [SteveZ]
ACTION: (DG) develop requirements for ::selection behavior
14:01:26 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - (DG)
14:01:57 [Bert]
How about: insert <::selection> at the start, </::selection> before every tag, <::selection> after every tag, and </::selection> at the end: <p>...........<<<<::>.......</::></p><::> </::><p><::>......</::><span><::>......</::>>>>.......</span></p>
14:01:57 [dbaron]
http://dbaron.org/css/test/sec051103b is a testcase for hierarchical :hover
14:02:01 [Bert]
(and then think about 'outline' separately)
14:02:19 [SteveZ]
ACTION:glazou, develop requirements for ::selection behavior
14:10:06 [mollydotcom]
I look at this and try to imagine designers having a clue. It isn't working.
14:13:34 [mollydotcom]
just bear in mind designers want very explicit control of every piece within a given selection
14:27:51 [SteveZ]
This is a test
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14:29:55 [SteveZ]
WG resumes at 4:30PM
14:30:43 [SteveZ]
Topic: First line, First letter pseudoelements
14:30:51 [glazou]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2006Jan/0209.html
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14:33:59 [glazou]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2006Jan/0091.html
14:34:47 [fantasai]
David: I think this is what we solved by doing the inherited/non-inherited properties split
14:35:08 [fantasai]
David: He put a display property on the :first-line and then display:inhert on a span in the first line
14:35:31 [glazou]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2005Oct/0163.html
14:35:32 [dbaron]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2005Oct/0163.html
14:36:03 [fantasai]
David: What we used to do on this test case was crash
14:39:18 [fantasai]
David looks up what exactly Mozilla does here
14:41:50 [fantasai]
David: If you have property: inherit; on an element that is inside the :first-line, then we don't inherit from the :first-line
14:42:39 [fantasai]
David: for non-inherited properties
14:43:23 [fantasai]
David: The effective change for this is only when the 'inherit' keyword is used on a non-inherited property
14:43:51 [fantasai]
David: That's a very uncommon case
14:44:07 [fantasai]
David: It's possible we want to change the behavior on more common cases
14:44:21 [fantasai]
David: like a tiled background image on ::first-line
14:45:18 [fantasai]
David reviews the spec
14:45:29 [fantasai]
David: no, that's should probably work...
14:48:07 [fantasai]
David: So how should we be changing the spec to try to address this?
14:48:14 [SteveZ]
DG: The current spec says that the span is split into two separate boxes
14:48:26 [glazou]
s/DG/DB ?
14:48:46 [SteveZ]
DG: How should the spec be changed to allow/require what Mozilla does?
14:48:47 [fantasai]
David: Do we want to say what Mozilla does with inheritance is allowed, or required, or it's undefined, or make another change
14:49:00 [fantasai]
Alex: IE does exactly what Mozilla does at this point.
14:49:19 [SteveZ]
AM: it appears that IE does what Mozilla does at this point
14:49:20 [fantasai]
Alex: inheritance comes not from the pseudo-class but from the actual parent
14:49:35 [fantasai]
David: but for an inherited property like color?
14:49:40 [fantasai]
Alex: doesn't inherit
14:49:49 [SteveZ]
s/DG/DB/
14:50:38 [fantasai]
David inspects Alex's testcase
14:51:59 [Bert]
(Is it the case that proeprties that don't apply to :first-line are also not inherited from :first-line? Or are only non-inherited properties not inherited?)
14:52:15 [fantasai]
only non-inherited properties are not inherited
14:53:20 [SteveZ]
DB: explicit inheritance of non-inherted properties ignores the firstline and firstchar properties in computed the inherited value
14:54:42 [SteveZ]
DB: inheritence of inherited properties do use the properties of firstline where relevant
14:58:18 [SteveZ]
EE: the split between non-inheritable properties do not inherit from the pseudo element properties and inheritable properties do inhert makes sense
14:58:40 [SteveZ]
AM: background and text decoration are safe to inherit
14:59:03 [SteveZ]
BB and DB: position and float are not safe to inherit
14:59:54 [SteveZ]
DB: if you set "whitespace: nowrap" this may change the firstline behavior (beyond just the inheritance question).
15:01:10 [SteveZ]
BB: The keyworld inherits from either the parent of the first line or the firstline; which should be used?
15:01:40 [SteveZ]
BB: one rule might be to inherit from the firstline if the property is applicable to the firstline and the parent otherwise.
15:08:12 [SteveZ]
suggested text: The portion of a child element that occurs on the first line inherits properties applicable to the firstline pseudo element; for properties not applicable to the firstline pseudo element, the inheritence is from the parent of the first line pseudo element
15:10:35 [fantasai]
s/parent/non-pseuo-element parent/
15:10:41 [SteveZ]
add: The portion of a child element that does not occur on the first line always inherits from the parent of that child.
15:11:11 [fantasai]
RESOLVED: proposal above accepted
15:15:07 [SteveZ]
DB: Firefox does not have the same rules for firstletter because firstletter is not layout based; it is only storage order based
15:16:46 [SteveZ]
Many: but, note that a quote followed by a character whose bidi order is opposite from the context in which the quote occurs may separate the quote and the following letter by the rest of the embedded bidi string
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15:21:04 [glazou]
======== ADJOURN FOR TODAY ===========
15:23:04 [mollydotcom]
Have some fun tonight for me . . . any good restaurants on the plan?
15:23:29 [Bert]
We were just discussing l'Ermitage du Riou...
15:23:59 [mollydotcom]
Bert: Yes, yes, didn't Peter say he had a little room on that HP credit card? ;)
15:24:15 [mollydotcom]
It's a wonderful restaurant
15:25:06 [mollydotcom]
plinss_ and it's not even officially day one of TP/AC
15:25:14 [mollydotcom]
you gotta be ready for the long haul
15:25:15 [mollydotcom]
hehe
15:25:30 [mollydotcom]
enjoy, enjoy. I will be vicariously enjoying through you
15:25:48 [mollydotcom]
and back as time zones permit
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