IRC log of tagmem on 2008-10-16

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:43:11 [RRSAgent]
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/10/16-tagmem-irc
16:43:22 [Stuart]
zakim, this will be TAG
16:43:22 [Zakim]
ok, Stuart; I see TAG_Weekly()1:00PM scheduled to start in 17 minutes
16:43:42 [Stuart]
Meeting: TAG Weekly
16:43:54 [Stuart]
Chair: Stuart Williams
16:44:07 [Stuart]
Scribe: David Orchard
16:44:36 [Stuart]
Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/10/16-agenda
16:46:22 [Stuart]
Regrets: Norm Walsh, Tim Berners-Lee, Ashok Malhotra
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TAG_Weekly()1:00PM has now started
16:58:50 [Zakim]
+Jonathan_Rees
16:59:04 [Zakim]
+[IBMCambridge]
16:59:05 [Zakim]
-[IBMCambridge]
16:59:05 [Zakim]
+[IBMCambridge]
16:59:14 [noah]
zakim, [IBMCambridge] is me
16:59:14 [Zakim]
+noah; got it
16:59:17 [Zakim]
+Raman
16:59:27 [noah]
zakim, who is here?
16:59:27 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Jonathan_Rees, noah, Raman
16:59:28 [Zakim]
On IRC I see noah, raman, jar, RRSAgent, Zakim, Stuart, DanC, ht, trackbot
17:00:00 [jar]
FYI, I am muted
17:00:18 [ht]
zakim, please call ht-781
17:00:18 [Zakim]
ok, ht; the call is being made
17:00:20 [Zakim]
+Ht
17:01:46 [Zakim]
+DanC
17:02:46 [dorchard]
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17:03:15 [Zakim]
+??P2
17:03:27 [Stuart]
zakim, ?? is me
17:03:27 [Zakim]
+Stuart; got it
17:04:40 [Zakim]
+Dave_Orchard
17:05:04 [dorchard]
scribenick: dorchard
17:05:08 [dorchard]
scribe: dorchard
17:07:25 [DanC]
+1 cxl 30 Oct (I'll be jet-lagged)
17:07:38 [dorchard]
stuart: propose next meeting after tpac is Nov 6th
17:07:52 [Zakim]
-Jonathan_Rees
17:07:58 [dorchard]
Approved: Next meeting after TPAC is Nov 6th
17:08:06 [Zakim]
+Jonathan_Rees
17:08:09 [dorchard]
Jonathan will scribe Nov 6th
17:08:21 [dorchard]
zakim, agenda?
17:08:21 [Zakim]
I see nothing on the agenda
17:08:37 [dorchard]
zakim, next agendum
17:08:37 [Zakim]
I see nothing on the agenda
17:08:44 [dorchard]
topic: abbreviated URIs
17:08:47 [ht]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Oct/0012
17:08:58 [ht]
http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Drafts#curie
17:08:58 [Stuart]
topic: abbreviatedURI-56
17:09:38 [Zakim]
-Dave_Orchard
17:10:10 [ht]
scribenick: ht
17:10:22 [ht]
HT: There appears to be a new draft, URI above
17:10:37 [ht]
... Dated 8 October
17:10:44 [Zakim]
+Dave_Orchard
17:10:46 [ht]
... I've had a look at it
17:10:56 [ht]
scribenick: dorchard
17:11:06 [DanC]
(above? hmm.. this one? http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-curie-20081008/ )
17:11:16 [noah]
Yes, I think that's it.
17:11:44 [dorchard]
ht: I looked at the draft, they tried to address all the points (#curie ref).
17:12:33 [dorchard]
ht: they have changed whether :foo is a curie or not over time.
17:12:50 [dorchard]
ht: this is now legal and is a valid curie
17:13:09 [Stuart]
as I believe is ""
17:13:12 [DanC]
(it _is_? I can't derive :foo from the grammar in http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-curie-20081008/ )
17:13:22 [dorchard]
ht: the problem is that implies that this is a curie with an empty string prefix as opposed to no prefix
17:13:41 [dorchard]
ht: the main part of the prefix is optional
17:13:42 [ht]
[[prefix]:]
17:13:43 [DanC]
(ok. I see now.)
17:13:47 [Stuart]
curie := [ [ prefix ] ':' ] reference
17:14:24 [jar]
I thought that in ':foo', the ':' gets replaced by some distinguished prefix (e.g. the base URI?) -- as in Turtle/N3
17:14:24 [dorchard]
ht: they must tell us what this means
17:14:44 [Stuart]
The draft says "A host language MAY interpret a reference value that is not preceded by a prefix and a colon as being a member of a host-language defined set of reserved values. Such reserved values MUST translate into an IRI, just as with any other CURIE
17:16:20 [Zakim]
-Jonathan_Rees
17:16:29 [jar]
yes, me. let me dial back in. sorry
17:16:37 [DanC]
(I'd like our minutes to quote text that's responsive to our comment. I don't remember the gist of our comment.)
17:16:49 [Zakim]
+Jonathan_Rees
17:18:05 [dorchard]
zakim, who's here?
17:18:05 [Zakim]
On the phone I see noah, Raman, Ht, DanC (muted), Stuart, Dave_Orchard, Jonathan_Rees
17:18:07 [Zakim]
On IRC I see dorchard, noah, raman, jar, RRSAgent, Zakim, Stuart, DanC, ht, trackbot
17:18:26 [DanC]
"Accordingly, CURIEs and Safe_CURIEs MUST NOT be used as values for attributes or other content that are specified to contain only URIs, IRIs, URI-references, IRI-references, etc."
17:19:41 [DanC]
ack me
17:20:54 [DanC]
is it worth recording a TAG decision contingent on jar's review?
17:22:08 [Stuart]
action jonathan to review the current CURIE editors draft against the changes requested by the TAG and inform the group of his disposition.
17:22:09 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-186 - Review the current CURIE editors draft against the changes requested by the TAG and inform the group of his disposition. [on Jonathan Rees - due 2008-10-23].
17:22:48 [dorchard]
topic: TAG @ TPAC
17:23:02 [Stuart]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/10/tpac
17:24:18 [dorchard]
stuart: EXI would like to meet mon/tues
17:24:25 [dorchard]
noah: not intereste in evening meetings
17:26:33 [dorchard]
discussion about tag and exi continues..
17:27:01 [ChrisL]
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17:27:08 [ChrisL]
zakim, code?
17:27:08 [Zakim]
the conference code is 0824 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), ChrisL
17:27:44 [dorchard]
q+
17:28:18 [dorchard]
henry: I gave them feedback about xml and exi distinction
17:28:21 [Zakim]
+ChrisL
17:28:28 [dorchard]
stuart: they are meeting mon/tues
17:28:45 [dorchard]
henry: and I think they wanted to at least meet about my feedback.
17:29:29 [dorchard]
noah: can you write up a summary for me?
17:29:48 [dorchard]
q?
17:29:55 [noah]
Or just send some links
17:30:06 [dorchard]
stuart: perhaps we should not meet if that's too hard.
17:30:40 [dorchard]
noah: the big issues are around not speed, and perhaps test case selection.
17:30:52 [dorchard]
noah: they don't even claim speed yet.
17:31:42 [dorchard]
stuart will continue to set up a meeting
17:32:00 [dorchard]
stuart: any other comments on meeting schedule?
17:32:39 [dorchard]
topic: tech plenary day
17:32:39 [noah]
Actually, I think speed is a big issue, and I think we've said that in the past. What I was pointing out is that they don't >claim< to have a quantitative justification speed-wise until CR, or at least that's my recollection. My notion would be to remind them that they either need to come up with a justification based on speed as well as compactness, or else make the case that EXI is...
17:32:48 [noah]
...justified without a speed claim.
17:33:21 [dorchard]
chrisl: origins of tag on plenary day
17:34:18 [dorchard]
chrisl: ian said that web arch was useless, etc. But then retracted to 3 specific positions
17:34:36 [dorchard]
raman: and I responded saying that 3 positions were not Google official positions
17:35:34 [ht]
WRT TAG-EXI interaction, here's one relevant pointer (not on the encoding issue): http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-exi/2007Nov/0004.html
17:35:51 [dorchard]
chrisl: invited ian to tech plenary day but he declined, and more said privately.
17:36:39 [dorchard]
chrisl: Issues should be done case by case, but not opt out of the whole thing.
17:37:06 [dorchard]
chrisl: Wanted a bit of discussion, perhaps some updates to web arch, but most of it is good and should be followed.
17:38:06 [dorchard]
chrisl: title of talk at plenary changed over time, the first was a little too rushed.
17:38:25 [dorchard]
... hoping you find the new title better
17:38:45 [dorchard]
raman: I like the title
17:39:02 [dorchard]
I won't be there..
17:39:12 [noah]
I think the missing bit in recipe vs. blueprint is that the consequences of bad cooking are pretty localized to those eating the meal. With Web arch, your app my run just fine, while the collection of such badly coded apps gradually sink the Web as a whole.
17:39:27 [dorchard]
I could have easily played devil's advocate on EPRs, but no joy.
17:39:33 [ChrisL]
q?
17:39:37 [dorchard]
q-
17:39:43 [noah]
q+ to ask about format
17:40:09 [dorchard]
raman: how many people actually know what web arch says? cynical answer is no...
17:40:21 [dorchard]
raman: and you need to conform or be hit on the head..
17:40:30 [Stuart]
q?
17:40:46 [dorchard]
raman: people do understand HTML
17:41:06 [noah]
q?
17:41:11 [Stuart]
ack noah
17:41:11 [Zakim]
noah, you wanted to ask about format
17:41:39 [dorchard]
noah: definitely want skeptics.
17:41:54 [dorchard]
noah: format in mind?
17:42:51 [dorchard]
noah: add Larry Masinter?
17:42:54 [ChrisL]
3-5 minute intros would be good
17:43:01 [ChrisL]
+1 to Larry.
17:43:48 [dorchard]
raman: some of what is going on should be tag's responsibility for solving, he has a *lot* of experience.
17:44:09 [dorchard]
.... But one more "old guy" that the 20 year olds won't listen to
17:44:25 [DanC]
ack me
17:44:52 [ht]
Noah, more background on the TAG-EXI discussion: minutes from last year at http://www.w3.org/2007/11/08-exi-minutes.html; my message referenced there (with a different conclusion than I would now reach, but useful background): http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-core-wg/2007Nov/0014.html
17:45:58 [dorchard]
noah: would like to talk about more than just web arch, and talk about findings
17:46:09 [dorchard]
raman: +1 on findings
17:46:54 [Stuart]
I think that some positive war stories would be good, and indeed some that may motivate us to re-think.
17:46:55 [ChrisL]
Findings update the webarch dod; webarch is not just the one document
17:46:59 [Stuart]
q?
17:48:11 [dorchard]
chrisl: henri sivonen was suggested, but he's alread on the xml vs html
17:50:58 [ChrisL]
q?
17:51:29 [dorchard]
chrisl: I'd like to invite larry
17:52:57 [ChrisL]
how many have benefitted from tag work
17:56:30 [Zakim]
-Ht
17:59:26 [dorchard]
stuart: meeting adjourned
17:59:36 [Zakim]
-Jonathan_Rees
17:59:46 [dorchard]
zakim, generate minutes
17:59:46 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'generate minutes', dorchard
17:59:55 [dorchard]
zakim, please generate minutes
17:59:55 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'please generate minutes', dorchard
18:00:07 [dorchard]
zakim, pretty please generate minutes
18:00:07 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'pretty please generate minutes', dorchard
18:00:24 [dorchard]
rrsagent, generate minutes
18:00:24 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/16-tagmem-minutes.html dorchard
18:00:32 [dorchard]
rrsagent, make minutes public
18:00:32 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', dorchard. Try /msg RRSAgent help
18:01:21 [Stuart]
rrsagent, make logs public
18:11:54 [Stuart]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/09/f2fkc-agenda (IIRC)
18:12:36 [Stuart]
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/09/f2fkc-agenda#HTMLandTheWeb
18:13:01 [Stuart]
zakim, who is on the phone
18:13:01 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who is on the phone', Stuart
18:13:03 [Stuart]
zakim, who is on the phone?
18:13:03 [Zakim]
On the phone I see noah, Raman, DanC, Stuart, Dave_Orchard, ChrisL
18:15:49 [Zakim]
-Dave_Orchard
18:30:26 [Zakim]
-DanC
18:33:59 [Zakim]
-noah
18:34:00 [Zakim]
-Stuart
18:34:00 [Zakim]
-ChrisL
18:34:02 [Zakim]
-Raman
18:34:04 [Zakim]
TAG_Weekly()1:00PM has ended
18:34:05 [Zakim]
Attendees were Jonathan_Rees, noah, Raman, Ht, DanC, Stuart, Dave_Orchard, ChrisL
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