12:59:26 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #egov
12:59:26 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/10/15-egov-irc
12:59:28 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
12:59:30 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be EGOV
12:59:30 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see T&S_EGOV()9:00AM already started
12:59:31 <trackbot> Meeting: eGovernment Interest Group Teleconference
12:59:31 <trackbot> Date: 15 October 2008
12:59:40 <josema> chairs: john, kevin
12:59:48 <Owen> I have another telecon in a half hour so I won't be able to stay long.
13:00:10 <john> is anyone on the telephone?
13:00:33 <josema> regrets: Benjamin, Roberto, Jeff, Pasquale, Vassilios, Ari, Kjetil (likely)
13:00:47 <josema> john, you can query zakim yourself
13:00:58 <josema> zakim, who's on the phone?
13:00:58 <Zakim> On the phone I see john
13:01:02 <josema> ha!
13:01:11 <Zakim> +Josema
13:01:38 <Zakim> + +31.61.830.aaaa
13:01:45 <Zakim> + +1.301.455.aabb
13:01:52 <josema> zakim, drop aaaa
13:01:52 <Zakim> +31.61.830.aaaa is being disconnected
13:01:53 <Zakim> - +31.61.830.aaaa
13:02:32 <josema> can anybody hear me on the phone?
13:02:37 <john> no
13:02:41 <josema> :(
13:03:08 <josema> zakim, unmute me
13:03:08 <Zakim> Josema was not muted, josema
13:03:14 <john> I heard something
13:03:21 <Zakim> + +31.61.830.aacc
13:03:46 <josema> zakim, drop me
13:03:53 <josema> zakim, call josema-office
13:03:55 <Zakim> Josema is being disconnected
13:03:59 <Zakim> -Josema
13:04:07 <Zakim> ok, josema; the call is being made
13:04:13 <Zakim> +Josema
13:04:49 <Zakim> + +1.509.464.aadd
13:06:12 <josema> zakim, aacc is martin
13:06:12 <Zakim> +martin; got it
13:06:23 <josema> zakim, who's here?
13:06:23 <Zakim> On the phone I see john, Josema, +1.301.455.aabb, martin, +1.509.464.aadd
13:06:25 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Owen, Vagner, Zakim, john, josema, kjetil, trackbot
13:07:03 <josema> zakim, drop aabb
13:07:03 <Zakim> +1.301.455.aabb is being disconnected
13:07:04 <Zakim> - +1.301.455.aabb
13:07:14 <josema> zakim, drop aadd
13:07:14 <Zakim> +1.509.464.aadd is being disconnected
13:07:16 <Zakim> - +1.509.464.aadd
13:07:20 <Zakim> + +1.202.731.aaee
13:07:57 <josema> zakim, aaee is kevin
13:07:57 <Zakim> +kevin; got it
13:08:06 <josema> zakim, who's here?
13:08:06 <Zakim> On the phone I see john, Josema, martin, kevin
13:08:07 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Owen, Vagner, Zakim, john, josema, kjetil, trackbot
13:08:16 <Rachel> Rachel has joined #egov
13:08:48 <Zakim> + +1.509.464.aaff
13:09:06 <josema> zakim, aaff is rachel
13:09:06 <Zakim> +rachel; got it
13:09:11 <Zakim> + +1.301.455.aagg
13:09:32 <josema> zakim, aagg is owen
13:09:32 <Zakim> +owen; got it
13:09:42 <josema> zakim, who's here?
13:09:45 <Zakim> On the phone I see john, Josema, martin, kevin, rachel, owen
13:09:47 <Zakim> On IRC I see Rachel, RRSAgent, Owen, Vagner, Zakim, john, josema, kjetil, trackbot
13:09:56 <josema> agenda?
13:10:29 <josema> move to next agendum
13:10:29 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Convene, agenda adjustments" taken up [from josema]
13:10:36 <Zakim> +??P29
13:10:57 <josema> zakim, P29 is trond
13:10:57 <Zakim> sorry, josema, I do not recognize a party named 'P29'
13:11:05 <josema> zakim, ??P29 is trond
13:11:05 <Zakim> +trond; got it
13:11:48 <josema> [scribe list: http://www.w3.org/2007/eGov/IG/wiki/Scribe_List]
13:12:54 <josema> scribe: josema
13:13:17 <josema> john: any agenda adjustments?
13:13:21 <josema> [none heard]
13:13:29 <josema> move to next agendum
13:13:29 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Introductions - new people onboard? (+ appoint a scribe)" taken up [from josema]
13:13:44 <josema> zakim, who's here?
13:13:44 <Zakim> On the phone I see john, Josema, martin, kevin, rachel, owen, trond
13:13:45 <Zakim> On IRC I see Rachel, RRSAgent, Owen, Vagner, Zakim, john, josema, kjetil, trackbot
13:14:59 <josema> martin: dutch government foundation leading with IT implementations
13:15:12 <josema> ... OSS, also participate in IDABC stuff
13:15:23 <josema> [all the rest are known :)]
13:15:54 <josema> agenda?
13:16:02 <josema> move to next agendum
13:16:06 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Basic IRC recap and a quick play" taken up [from josema]
13:16:29 <Zakim> + +55115509aahh
13:17:33 <josema> http://www.w3.org/2007/eGov/IG/wiki/Teleconferences#How-to_join__-_IRC
13:18:18 <josema> http://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot
13:18:51 <john> q?
13:19:22 <Zakim> +OCR
13:19:24 <Vagner> Vagner, from Brazil, joined
13:19:36 <josema> zakim, aahh is Vagner
13:19:36 <Zakim> +Vagner; got it
13:19:44 <josema> zakim, OCR is oscar
13:19:44 <Zakim> +oscar; got it
13:20:09 <josema> q?
13:20:21 <josema> q+ I have this question
13:20:26 <josema> q+ to I have this question
13:20:29 <josema> q?
13:20:43 <josema> ack josema
13:20:43 <Zakim> josema, you wanted to I have this question
13:21:13 <josema> move to next agendum
13:21:14 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Review of action items" taken up [from josema]
13:21:32 <josema> http://www.w3.org/2007/eGov/IG/track/actions/open
13:22:40 <Zakim> -martin
13:22:53 <josema> close ACTION-10
13:22:53 <trackbot> ACTION-10 Discuss themes by email by Monday closed
13:22:57 <josema> close ACTION-11
13:22:57 <trackbot> ACTION-11 Discuss themes by email by Monday closed
13:23:09 <josema> [done and in the agenda and list]
13:23:14 <josema> move to next agendum
13:23:14 <Zakim> agendum 5. "Preparing for the face to face" taken up [from josema]
13:23:15 <Zakim> +martin
13:24:13 <john> q?
13:24:18 <josema> [john explains the themes sent to the list and how to prepare F2F]
13:25:08 <josema> john: chairs discussed about structure of use cases and number
13:25:22 <josema> ...only one so far; we would like to come up with more
13:25:48 <josema> ...people to submit one case before the F2F and have the F2F agenda
13:25:53 <josema> ...built around those
13:25:56 <josema> ... thoughts?
13:26:03 <josema> s/... /...
13:26:38 <josema> -> http://www.w3.org/2007/eGov/IG/wiki/Use_Cases Use Cases
13:26:44 <josema> john: volunteers?
13:26:52 <josema> [none heard]
13:27:17 <OCR> OCR has joined #egov
13:27:40 <josema> john: in the post I made on Monday I proposed 10 possible cases
13:27:46 <Zakim> +[LC]
13:27:48 <josema> ...and areas we would need to explore
13:27:56 <josema> ...perhaps we need more
13:28:06 <josema> zakim, LC is Anne
13:28:06 <Zakim> +Anne; got it
13:29:13 <josema> john: I would expect us to come up with some outlined use cases
13:29:36 <josema> john: changing slightly the topic
13:29:52 <josema> ...why none heard so far?
13:30:03 <josema> ...is that because they are not useful?
13:30:15 <josema> s/are not/would not
13:30:34 <josema> owen: number of regrets may be because of use cases not that important
13:30:37 <josema> ...people busy
13:30:48 <josema> anne: use cases could be very helpful to focus ideas
13:31:04 <martinmollema> martinmollema has joined #egov
13:31:13 <josema> ...this is a problem database, but not sure it's obvious
13:31:23 <josema> ...for everybody to volunteer and participate
13:31:53 <josema> john: eg. show us a better way competition in the UK
13:32:09 <josema> ...I already got about 100 use cases from that
13:32:14 <josema> ...amazing work
13:32:57 <josema> ->http://www.showusabetterway.co.uk/ Show Us a Better Way competition
13:33:08 <josema> [scribe lost a bit here]
13:33:45 <Owen> I didn't mean to suggest that use cases may not be helpful but, merely, that the fact others have not provided any yet is a reflection of the fact they are busy.  They should contribute whatever they can.
13:34:08 <josema> kevin: we should try to concentrate on a small set of cases to show the main areas
13:34:20 <josema> ...and we want to achieve
13:34:59 <josema> anne: I think the structure of groups works for me
13:35:57 <josema> john: do you think there are some US gov cases that could fit there??
13:36:26 <josema> anne:??
13:37:00 <josema> [john talks about pattern behind the competition...]
13:37:54 <Zakim> -Josema
13:38:01 <Zakim> +Josema
13:38:48 <josema> [scribe lost phone connection, hence a couple minutes]
13:39:31 <josema> john: I see people asking for help to each others in forums about taxation
13:39:48 <josema> ...if we could engage the government there to help them, it'd be interesting case to explore
13:40:01 <josema> anne: maybe we just need good stories about why that's happening
13:40:06 <Owen> The U.S. federal Web Content Managers strategic plan is available at http://xml.gov/stratml/WCMstratplan.xml I suppose it could be considered to be a set of use cases for the eGov IG.
13:40:17 <josema> kevin: we talked previously about persona-like approach
13:40:20 <josema> anne: makes sense
13:40:56 <josema> rachel: do we want stories and successes and also some that recognize we have some work to do?
13:41:22 <josema> kevin: both, gap analysis is also useful to identify what's missing
13:41:48 <josema> rachel: speaking as US executive branch, I think UK is ahead of us
13:42:09 <josema> ...we have good information but not good transformational, it's too fragmented
13:42:21 <josema> ...this is a big challenge
13:42:34 <josema> s/speaking as/speaking of
13:42:41 <josema> regrets+ rinke
13:42:49 <josema> agenda?
13:43:54 <josema> john: I understand some of the good stories will show some issues
13:44:19 <josema> move to next agendum
13:44:19 <Zakim> agendum 6. "Use Case framework" taken up [from josema]
13:44:24 <josema> zakim, who is noisy?
13:44:35 <Zakim> josema, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: martin (21%), Josema (9%)
13:45:50 <josema> [johns asks for input about F2F, and what we should bring from there]
13:45:53 <martinmollema> I'll try
13:45:59 <josema> s/johns/john
13:47:44 <josema> move to next agendum
13:47:44 <Zakim> agendum 7. "Candidate Use Cases" taken up [from josema]
13:48:25 <josema> zakim, who is noisy?
13:48:35 <Zakim> josema, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: john (49%), martin (34%)
13:50:10 <martinmollema> ok, I couldn't mute my mobile doesn't allow 
13:50:15 <josema> [john reviews web basics and ideas sent to the list around use cases and framework]
13:50:53 <kjetil> Zakim, what is the code?
13:50:53 <Zakim> the conference code is 3468 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), kjetil
13:51:01 <josema> john: how much effort we should put into the framework and how much on "web basics"
13:51:11 <josema> ...keeping in mind money is very short
13:51:14 <Zakim> + +2
13:51:19 <kjetil> +2 is me 
13:51:28 <john> q?
13:51:30 <kjetil> Zakim, +2 is me 
13:51:30 <Zakim> +kjetil; got it
13:52:02 <josema> zakim, who's noisy?
13:52:12 <Zakim> josema, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 11 (31%), john (91%), kjetil (25%)
13:52:33 <josema> zakim, mute kjetil
13:52:33 <Zakim> kjetil should now be muted
13:52:46 <josema> zakim, who's 11?
13:52:46 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, josema.
13:54:11 <josema> anne: first call for me
13:54:17 <josema> vagner: same
13:54:40 <martinmollema> As this is my first call and as I am muted Iam just absorbing
13:55:31 <josema> [some talk about current situation and how it will affect eGov projects]
13:56:11 <josema> owen: is money an issue for us, for this Group?
13:56:46 <josema> anne: we don't financial resources perse
13:56:59 <josema> ...just talking and working and sharing
13:57:08 <josema> s/perse/"per se"
13:57:33 <josema> john: in terms of sharing it costs nothing
13:57:43 <josema> ...and magical knowledge transfers happen
13:58:06 <kjetil> q+
13:58:08 <josema> ...great in hard times that we'll experience in 2-3 years
13:58:38 <josema> ...where we need learning to save
13:59:03 <josema> ...my personal view is being able to do lots with little money is a great story
13:59:22 <josema> q?
13:59:33 <kjetil> ack me
13:59:34 <josema> ack k
14:00:15 <john> q?
14:00:16 <josema> kjetil: in Norway is affecting public sector at large ???
14:01:26 <josema> zakim, mute kj
14:01:26 <Zakim> kjetil should now be muted
14:02:24 <josema> john: I'm wondering if "can we do more with very little?"
14:02:25 <kjetil> in Norway, we expect to do more work for eGov since the state has sufficient money, it has been holding back to not overheat the economy
14:02:39 <josema> ...is something we should use as theme?
14:03:18 <josema> anne: I think that "share what we can" is a very important argument
14:03:22 <kjetil> now that the prices for our services are goind down somewhat, the government may well take advantage of the situation to increase public spending
14:03:23 <josema> rachel: +1
14:04:14 <josema> john: I encourage group members to document a success or a challenge and share it with the Group
14:05:17 <josema> agenda?
14:05:51 <josema> john: value for money, web basics and stories/use cases could be the main three things to work n
14:05:54 <josema> ...comments?
14:06:41 <josema> [none heard]
14:08:16 <josema> rachel: I would probably add something about "plain language", helping people to find what they need
14:08:25 <josema> ...and not use much government technical terms
14:09:04 <josema> ...we have writing standards, peer review, maybe sth like this could be added
14:09:09 <josema> john: good example
14:09:30 <josema> ...resource discovery is a tricky issue
14:09:45 <josema> ...difference in government and citizen terms to search for something
14:10:10 <josema> I could provide an example on that
14:10:21 <josema> I = jose = scribe
14:11:08 <Zakim> -kevin
14:12:23 <josema> [jose talks about SW to match those]
14:12:25 <Vagner> Vagner has joined #egov
14:13:20 <josema> in fact, it was already published: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/sweo/public/UseCases/CTIC/
14:13:55 <kjetil> q+
14:14:28 <john> ack next
14:16:38 <kjetil> Zakim: mute me
14:16:45 <josema> zakim, mute kj
14:16:45 <Zakim> kjetil should now be muted
14:17:32 <josema> john: recap: use cases around languages, semantics to mediate between man in the street and government...
14:17:42 <josema> ...anything else?
14:17:44 <kjetil> An acquitance of the Computas Semweb group wrote a master's thesis about using the Semantic Web to support citizens when they search for support from the state
14:18:03 <kjetil> so that they can more easily find what rights they actually have, but that is hard to find
14:18:31 <josema> rachel: thanks john for laying out the "straw man" discussion
14:18:32 <kjetil> I took an action to send an email to the people who wrote this and ask them to submit it to us
14:20:09 <martinmollema> There is a research going on in the netherlands, on the search engine for citizens to browse through all different government organisations, aiming to provide the correct information.
14:20:33 <josema> ack martin
14:20:38 <martinmollema> i am muted 
14:20:46 <josema> ack martin
14:21:09 <josema> ACTION kjetil to send an email to the people who wrote wrote a master's thesis about using the Semantic Web to support citizens when they search for support from the state
14:21:09 <trackbot> Created ACTION-13 - Send an email to the people who wrote wrote a master's thesis about using the Semantic Web to support citizens when they search for support from the state [on Kjetil Kjernsmo - due 2008-10-22].
14:21:51 <josema> martin: project in NL that extends up to 600 organizations
14:22:11 <josema> ...adding semantics so when a person needs to contact a given org
14:22:30 <josema> ..he/she should not worry about who is in charge, but the system will help
14:22:43 <josema> zakim, mute martin
14:22:43 <Zakim> martin should now be muted
14:23:19 <martinmollema> ok thanx
14:23:22 <josema> ...the citizen to contact the right one within the gov
14:23:30 <josema> ...will ask people in charge
14:23:38 <josema> john: this was a useful conversation
14:23:41 <josema> agenda?
14:24:29 <josema> john: any burning issues left out?
14:24:34 <Owen> I need to sign off.
14:24:39 <Zakim> -owen
14:25:01 <josema> ...eg: accessibility, should we have a story just about it or spread over others?
14:25:35 <josema> anne: in some cases, we might want to build on others work
14:25:54 <josema> john: value we can add is contextualizing
14:25:56 <josema> anne: +1
14:26:32 <josema> zakim, list attendants
14:26:32 <Zakim> I don't understand 'list attendants', josema
14:27:04 <josema> zakim, list attendees
14:27:05 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been john, Josema, +31.61.830.aaaa, +1.301.455.aabb, +31.61.830.aacc, +1.509.464.aadd, martin, +1.202.731.aaee, kevin, +1.509.464.aaff, rachel,
14:27:06 <washingtona> washingtona has joined #egov
14:27:12 <Zakim> ... +1.301.455.aagg, owen, trond, +55115509aahh, Vagner, oscar, Anne, kjetil
14:27:34 <josema> zakim, washingtona is anne
14:27:34 <Zakim> sorry, josema, I do not recognize a party named 'washingtona'
14:27:47 <josema> zakim, anne is washingtona
14:27:47 <Zakim> +washingtona; got it
14:27:49 <john> q?
14:28:30 <josema> john: trust/provenance also an important topic
14:28:46 <josema> rachel: trust issue is a very big one for us
14:29:07 <washingtona> washingtona has joined #egov
14:29:17 <john> q?
14:29:45 <josema> ...make us nervous about what it will done with the info
14:30:09 <josema> john: I understand... and context is important...
14:32:02 <josema> ...is misuse a big concern of yours?
14:32:57 <josema> rachel: case of purported government info worries me
14:33:07 <kjetil> Zakim: q+
14:33:16 <kjetil> q+
14:33:20 <john> ack next
14:33:56 <Zakim> -trond
14:34:40 <josema> kjetil: digital signatures, powerful stuff to avoid these issues
14:34:51 <john> sorry - holding phone, typing, thinking - its a whole new multitasking experience!
14:35:55 <john> I know :)
14:37:19 <john> ?q
14:37:20 <kjetil> Zakim, mute me
14:37:20 <Zakim> kjetil should now be muted
14:37:37 <josema> john: recap at the F2F, maybe come up with another couple cases in the morning
14:37:44 <josema> ...shape them in the afternoon
14:37:49 <josema> move to next agendum
14:37:49 <Zakim> agendum 8. "Next Meeting" taken up [from josema]
14:38:05 <josema> Next meeting: F2F, then 29 Oct
14:38:33 <josema> john: we have a little bit more clarity for F2F
14:38:42 <josema> ... a couple more areas to work on
14:38:53 <josema> ...and useful conversation today
14:39:16 <josema> ...encourage you to post your thoughts before next week
14:39:22 <josema> ...so we could take up at the F2F
14:39:44 <john> q?
14:39:53 <josema> [ADJOURNED]
14:40:51 <Zakim> -washingtona
14:40:53 <Zakim> -rachel
14:40:56 <Zakim> -kjetil
14:40:58 <Zakim> -martin
14:40:59 <Zakim> -oscar
14:41:04 <josema> RRSagent, draft minutes
14:41:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/15-egov-minutes.html josema
14:41:36 <josema> zakim, drop vagner
14:41:36 <Zakim> Vagner is being disconnected
14:41:37 <Zakim> -Vagner
14:47:58 <Zakim> -Josema
14:47:59 <Zakim> T&S_EGOV()9:00AM has ended
14:48:01 <Zakim> Attendees were john, Josema, +31.61.830.aaaa, +1.301.455.aabb, +31.61.830.aacc, +1.509.464.aadd, martin, +1.202.731.aaee, kevin, +1.509.464.aaff, rachel, +1.301.455.aagg, owen,
14:48:03 <Zakim> ... trond, +55115509aahh, Vagner, oscar, kjetil, washingtona
14:48:46 <josema> zakim, who's here?
14:48:46 <Zakim> apparently T&S_EGOV()9:00AM has ended, josema
14:48:48 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, john, josema, kjetil, trackbot
14:49:15 <josema> regrets+ chris
14:49:21 <josema> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:49:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/15-egov-minutes.html josema
15:07:30 <josema> zakim, bye
15:07:31 <Zakim> Zakim has left #egov
15:07:34 <josema> RRSAgent, bye
15:07:34 <RRSAgent> I see no action items