IRC log of egov on 2008-10-15

Timestamps are in UTC.

12:59:26 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #egov
12:59:26 [RRSAgent]
logging to
12:59:28 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
12:59:30 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be EGOV
12:59:30 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot, I see T&S_EGOV()9:00AM already started
12:59:31 [trackbot]
Meeting: eGovernment Interest Group Teleconference
12:59:31 [trackbot]
Date: 15 October 2008
12:59:40 [josema]
chairs: john, kevin
12:59:48 [Owen]
I have another telecon in a half hour so I won't be able to stay long.
13:00:10 [john]
is anyone on the telephone?
13:00:33 [josema]
regrets: Benjamin, Roberto, Jeff, Pasquale, Vassilios, Ari, Kjetil (likely)
13:00:47 [josema]
john, you can query zakim yourself
13:00:58 [josema]
zakim, who's on the phone?
13:00:58 [Zakim]
On the phone I see john
13:01:02 [josema]
13:01:11 [Zakim]
13:01:38 [Zakim]
+ +31.61.830.aaaa
13:01:45 [Zakim]
+ +1.301.455.aabb
13:01:52 [josema]
zakim, drop aaaa
13:01:52 [Zakim]
+31.61.830.aaaa is being disconnected
13:01:53 [Zakim]
- +31.61.830.aaaa
13:02:32 [josema]
can anybody hear me on the phone?
13:02:37 [john]
13:02:41 [josema]
13:03:08 [josema]
zakim, unmute me
13:03:08 [Zakim]
Josema was not muted, josema
13:03:14 [john]
I heard something
13:03:21 [Zakim]
+ +31.61.830.aacc
13:03:46 [josema]
zakim, drop me
13:03:53 [josema]
zakim, call josema-office
13:03:55 [Zakim]
Josema is being disconnected
13:03:59 [Zakim]
13:04:07 [Zakim]
ok, josema; the call is being made
13:04:13 [Zakim]
13:04:49 [Zakim]
+ +1.509.464.aadd
13:06:12 [josema]
zakim, aacc is martin
13:06:12 [Zakim]
+martin; got it
13:06:23 [josema]
zakim, who's here?
13:06:23 [Zakim]
On the phone I see john, Josema, +1.301.455.aabb, martin, +1.509.464.aadd
13:06:25 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, Owen, Vagner, Zakim, john, josema, kjetil, trackbot
13:07:03 [josema]
zakim, drop aabb
13:07:03 [Zakim]
+1.301.455.aabb is being disconnected
13:07:04 [Zakim]
- +1.301.455.aabb
13:07:14 [josema]
zakim, drop aadd
13:07:14 [Zakim]
+1.509.464.aadd is being disconnected
13:07:16 [Zakim]
- +1.509.464.aadd
13:07:20 [Zakim]
+ +1.202.731.aaee
13:07:57 [josema]
zakim, aaee is kevin
13:07:57 [Zakim]
+kevin; got it
13:08:06 [josema]
zakim, who's here?
13:08:06 [Zakim]
On the phone I see john, Josema, martin, kevin
13:08:07 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, Owen, Vagner, Zakim, john, josema, kjetil, trackbot
13:08:16 [Rachel]
Rachel has joined #egov
13:08:48 [Zakim]
+ +1.509.464.aaff
13:09:06 [josema]
zakim, aaff is rachel
13:09:06 [Zakim]
+rachel; got it
13:09:11 [Zakim]
+ +1.301.455.aagg
13:09:32 [josema]
zakim, aagg is owen
13:09:32 [Zakim]
+owen; got it
13:09:42 [josema]
zakim, who's here?
13:09:45 [Zakim]
On the phone I see john, Josema, martin, kevin, rachel, owen
13:09:47 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Rachel, RRSAgent, Owen, Vagner, Zakim, john, josema, kjetil, trackbot
13:09:56 [josema]
13:10:29 [josema]
move to next agendum
13:10:29 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Convene, agenda adjustments" taken up [from josema]
13:10:36 [Zakim]
13:10:57 [josema]
zakim, P29 is trond
13:10:57 [Zakim]
sorry, josema, I do not recognize a party named 'P29'
13:11:05 [josema]
zakim, ??P29 is trond
13:11:05 [Zakim]
+trond; got it
13:11:48 [josema]
[scribe list:]
13:12:54 [josema]
scribe: josema
13:13:17 [josema]
john: any agenda adjustments?
13:13:21 [josema]
[none heard]
13:13:29 [josema]
move to next agendum
13:13:29 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Introductions - new people onboard? (+ appoint a scribe)" taken up [from josema]
13:13:44 [josema]
zakim, who's here?
13:13:44 [Zakim]
On the phone I see john, Josema, martin, kevin, rachel, owen, trond
13:13:45 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Rachel, RRSAgent, Owen, Vagner, Zakim, john, josema, kjetil, trackbot
13:14:59 [josema]
martin: dutch government foundation leading with IT implementations
13:15:12 [josema]
... OSS, also participate in IDABC stuff
13:15:23 [josema]
[all the rest are known :)]
13:15:54 [josema]
13:16:02 [josema]
move to next agendum
13:16:06 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Basic IRC recap and a quick play" taken up [from josema]
13:16:29 [Zakim]
+ +55115509aahh
13:17:33 [josema]
13:18:18 [josema]
13:18:51 [john]
13:19:22 [Zakim]
13:19:24 [Vagner]
Vagner, from Brazil, joined
13:19:36 [josema]
zakim, aahh is Vagner
13:19:36 [Zakim]
+Vagner; got it
13:19:44 [josema]
zakim, OCR is oscar
13:19:44 [Zakim]
+oscar; got it
13:20:09 [josema]
13:20:21 [josema]
q+ I have this question
13:20:26 [josema]
q+ to I have this question
13:20:29 [josema]
13:20:43 [josema]
ack josema
13:20:43 [Zakim]
josema, you wanted to I have this question
13:21:13 [josema]
move to next agendum
13:21:14 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "Review of action items" taken up [from josema]
13:21:32 [josema]
13:22:40 [Zakim]
13:22:53 [josema]
close ACTION-10
13:22:53 [trackbot]
ACTION-10 Discuss themes by email by Monday closed
13:22:57 [josema]
close ACTION-11
13:22:57 [trackbot]
ACTION-11 Discuss themes by email by Monday closed
13:23:09 [josema]
[done and in the agenda and list]
13:23:14 [josema]
move to next agendum
13:23:14 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "Preparing for the face to face" taken up [from josema]
13:23:15 [Zakim]
13:24:13 [john]
13:24:18 [josema]
[john explains the themes sent to the list and how to prepare F2F]
13:25:08 [josema]
john: chairs discussed about structure of use cases and number
13:25:22 [josema]
...only one so far; we would like to come up with more
13:25:48 [josema]
...people to submit one case before the F2F and have the F2F agenda
13:25:53 [josema]
...built around those
13:25:56 [josema]
... thoughts?
13:26:03 [josema]
s/... /...
13:26:38 [josema]
-> Use Cases
13:26:44 [josema]
john: volunteers?
13:26:52 [josema]
[none heard]
13:27:17 [OCR]
OCR has joined #egov
13:27:40 [josema]
john: in the post I made on Monday I proposed 10 possible cases
13:27:46 [Zakim]
13:27:48 [josema]
...and areas we would need to explore
13:27:56 [josema]
...perhaps we need more
13:28:06 [josema]
zakim, LC is Anne
13:28:06 [Zakim]
+Anne; got it
13:29:13 [josema]
john: I would expect us to come up with some outlined use cases
13:29:36 [josema]
john: changing slightly the topic
13:29:52 [josema]
...why none heard so far?
13:30:03 [josema] that because they are not useful?
13:30:15 [josema]
s/are not/would not
13:30:34 [josema]
owen: number of regrets may be because of use cases not that important
13:30:37 [josema]
...people busy
13:30:48 [josema]
anne: use cases could be very helpful to focus ideas
13:31:04 [martinmollema]
martinmollema has joined #egov
13:31:13 [josema]
...this is a problem database, but not sure it's obvious
13:31:23 [josema]
...for everybody to volunteer and participate
13:31:53 [josema]
john: eg. show us a better way competition in the UK
13:32:09 [josema]
...I already got about 100 use cases from that
13:32:14 [josema]
...amazing work
13:32:57 [josema]
-> Show Us a Better Way competition
13:33:08 [josema]
[scribe lost a bit here]
13:33:45 [Owen]
I didn't mean to suggest that use cases may not be helpful but, merely, that the fact others have not provided any yet is a reflection of the fact they are busy. They should contribute whatever they can.
13:34:08 [josema]
kevin: we should try to concentrate on a small set of cases to show the main areas
13:34:20 [josema]
...and we want to achieve
13:34:59 [josema]
anne: I think the structure of groups works for me
13:35:57 [josema]
john: do you think there are some US gov cases that could fit there??
13:36:26 [josema]
13:37:00 [josema]
[john talks about pattern behind the competition...]
13:37:54 [Zakim]
13:38:01 [Zakim]
13:38:48 [josema]
[scribe lost phone connection, hence a couple minutes]
13:39:31 [josema]
john: I see people asking for help to each others in forums about taxation
13:39:48 [josema]
...if we could engage the government there to help them, it'd be interesting case to explore
13:40:01 [josema]
anne: maybe we just need good stories about why that's happening
13:40:06 [Owen]
The U.S. federal Web Content Managers strategic plan is available at I suppose it could be considered to be a set of use cases for the eGov IG.
13:40:17 [josema]
kevin: we talked previously about persona-like approach
13:40:20 [josema]
anne: makes sense
13:40:56 [josema]
rachel: do we want stories and successes and also some that recognize we have some work to do?
13:41:22 [josema]
kevin: both, gap analysis is also useful to identify what's missing
13:41:48 [josema]
rachel: speaking as US executive branch, I think UK is ahead of us
13:42:09 [josema]
...we have good information but not good transformational, it's too fragmented
13:42:21 [josema]
...this is a big challenge
13:42:34 [josema]
s/speaking as/speaking of
13:42:41 [josema]
regrets+ rinke
13:42:49 [josema]
13:43:54 [josema]
john: I understand some of the good stories will show some issues
13:44:19 [josema]
move to next agendum
13:44:19 [Zakim]
agendum 6. "Use Case framework" taken up [from josema]
13:44:24 [josema]
zakim, who is noisy?
13:44:35 [Zakim]
josema, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: martin (21%), Josema (9%)
13:45:50 [josema]
[johns asks for input about F2F, and what we should bring from there]
13:45:53 [martinmollema]
I'll try
13:45:59 [josema]
13:47:44 [josema]
move to next agendum
13:47:44 [Zakim]
agendum 7. "Candidate Use Cases" taken up [from josema]
13:48:25 [josema]
zakim, who is noisy?
13:48:35 [Zakim]
josema, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: john (49%), martin (34%)
13:50:10 [martinmollema]
ok, I couldn't mute my mobile doesn't allow
13:50:15 [josema]
[john reviews web basics and ideas sent to the list around use cases and framework]
13:50:53 [kjetil]
Zakim, what is the code?
13:50:53 [Zakim]
the conference code is 3468 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.117.370.6152), kjetil
13:51:01 [josema]
john: how much effort we should put into the framework and how much on "web basics"
13:51:11 [josema]
...keeping in mind money is very short
13:51:14 [Zakim]
+ +2
13:51:19 [kjetil]
+2 is me
13:51:28 [john]
13:51:30 [kjetil]
Zakim, +2 is me
13:51:30 [Zakim]
+kjetil; got it
13:52:02 [josema]
zakim, who's noisy?
13:52:12 [Zakim]
josema, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 11 (31%), john (91%), kjetil (25%)
13:52:33 [josema]
zakim, mute kjetil
13:52:33 [Zakim]
kjetil should now be muted
13:52:46 [josema]
zakim, who's 11?
13:52:46 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, josema.
13:54:11 [josema]
anne: first call for me
13:54:17 [josema]
vagner: same
13:54:40 [martinmollema]
As this is my first call and as I am muted Iam just absorbing
13:55:31 [josema]
[some talk about current situation and how it will affect eGov projects]
13:56:11 [josema]
owen: is money an issue for us, for this Group?
13:56:46 [josema]
anne: we don't financial resources perse
13:56:59 [josema]
...just talking and working and sharing
13:57:08 [josema]
s/perse/"per se"
13:57:33 [josema]
john: in terms of sharing it costs nothing
13:57:43 [josema]
...and magical knowledge transfers happen
13:58:06 [kjetil]
13:58:08 [josema]
...great in hard times that we'll experience in 2-3 years
13:58:38 [josema]
...where we need learning to save
13:59:03 [josema] personal view is being able to do lots with little money is a great story
13:59:16 [josema]
...government use of the Web plays a key role to innovate
13:59:22 [josema]
13:59:33 [kjetil]
ack me
13:59:34 [josema]
ack k
14:00:15 [john]
14:00:16 [josema]
kjetil: in Norway is affecting public sector at large ???
14:01:26 [josema]
zakim, mute kj
14:01:26 [Zakim]
kjetil should now be muted
14:02:24 [josema]
john: I'm wondering if "can we do more with very little?"
14:02:25 [kjetil]
in Norway, we expect to do more work for eGov since the state has sufficient money, it has been holding back to not overheat the economy
14:02:39 [josema] something we should use as theme?
14:03:18 [josema]
anne: I think that "share what we can" is a very important argument
14:03:22 [kjetil]
now that the prices for our services are goind down somewhat, the government may well take advantage of the situation to increase public spending
14:03:23 [josema]
rachel: +1
14:04:14 [josema]
john: I encourage group members to document a success or a challenge and share it with the Group
14:05:17 [josema]
14:05:51 [josema]
john: value for money, web basics and stories/use cases could be the main three things to work n
14:05:54 [josema]
14:06:41 [josema]
[none heard]
14:08:16 [josema]
rachel: I would probably add something about "plain language", helping people to find what they need
14:08:25 [josema]
...and not use much government technical terms
14:09:04 [josema]
...we have writing standards, peer review, maybe sth like this could be added
14:09:09 [josema]
john: good example
14:09:30 [josema]
...resource discovery is a tricky issue
14:09:45 [josema]
...difference in government and citizen terms to search for something
14:10:10 [josema]
I could provide an example on that
14:10:21 [josema]
I = jose = scribe
14:11:08 [Zakim]
14:12:23 [josema]
[jose talks about SW to match those]
14:12:25 [Vagner]
Vagner has joined #egov
14:13:20 [josema]
in fact, it was already published:
14:13:55 [kjetil]
14:14:28 [john]
ack next
14:16:38 [kjetil]
Zakim: mute me
14:16:45 [josema]
zakim, mute kj
14:16:45 [Zakim]
kjetil should now be muted
14:17:32 [josema]
john: recap: use cases around languages, semantics to mediate between man in the street and government...
14:17:42 [josema]
...anything else?
14:17:44 [kjetil]
An acquitance of the Computas Semweb group wrote a master's thesis about using the Semantic Web to support citizens when they search for support from the state
14:18:03 [kjetil]
so that they can more easily find what rights they actually have, but that is hard to find
14:18:31 [josema]
rachel: thanks john for laying out the "straw man" discussion
14:18:32 [kjetil]
I took an action to send an email to the people who wrote this and ask them to submit it to us
14:20:09 [martinmollema]
There is a research going on in the netherlands, on the search engine for citizens to browse through all different government organisations, aiming to provide the correct information.
14:20:33 [josema]
ack martin
14:20:38 [martinmollema]
i am muted
14:20:46 [josema]
ack martin
14:21:09 [josema]
ACTION kjetil to send an email to the people who wrote wrote a master's thesis about using the Semantic Web to support citizens when they search for support from the state
14:21:09 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-13 - Send an email to the people who wrote wrote a master's thesis about using the Semantic Web to support citizens when they search for support from the state [on Kjetil Kjernsmo - due 2008-10-22].
14:21:51 [josema]
martin: project in NL that extends up to 600 organizations
14:22:11 [josema]
...adding semantics so when a person needs to contact a given org
14:22:30 [josema]
..he/she should not worry about who is in charge, but the system will help
14:22:43 [josema]
zakim, mute martin
14:22:43 [Zakim]
martin should now be muted
14:23:19 [martinmollema]
ok thanx
14:23:22 [josema]
...the citizen to contact the right one within the gov
14:23:30 [josema]
...will ask people in charge
14:23:38 [josema]
john: this was a useful conversation
14:23:41 [josema]
14:24:29 [josema]
john: any burning issues left out?
14:24:34 [Owen]
I need to sign off.
14:24:39 [Zakim]
14:25:01 [josema] accessibility, should we have a story just about it or spread over others?
14:25:35 [josema]
anne: in some cases, we might want to build on others work
14:25:54 [josema]
john: value we can add is contextualizing
14:25:56 [josema]
anne: +1
14:26:32 [josema]
zakim, list attendants
14:26:32 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'list attendants', josema
14:27:04 [josema]
zakim, list attendees
14:27:05 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been john, Josema, +31.61.830.aaaa, +1.301.455.aabb, +31.61.830.aacc, +1.509.464.aadd, martin, +1.202.731.aaee, kevin, +1.509.464.aaff, rachel,
14:27:06 [washingtona]
washingtona has joined #egov
14:27:12 [Zakim]
... +1.301.455.aagg, owen, trond, +55115509aahh, Vagner, oscar, Anne, kjetil
14:27:34 [josema]
zakim, washingtona is anne
14:27:34 [Zakim]
sorry, josema, I do not recognize a party named 'washingtona'
14:27:47 [josema]
zakim, anne is washingtona
14:27:47 [Zakim]
+washingtona; got it
14:27:49 [john]
14:28:30 [josema]
john: trust/provenance also an important topic
14:28:46 [josema]
rachel: trust issue is a very big one for us
14:29:07 [washingtona]
washingtona has joined #egov
14:29:17 [john]
14:29:45 [josema]
...make us nervous about what it will done with the info
14:30:09 [josema]
john: I understand... and context is important...
14:32:02 [josema] misuse a big concern of yours?
14:32:57 [josema]
rachel: case of purported government info worries me
14:33:07 [kjetil]
Zakim: q+
14:33:16 [kjetil]
14:33:20 [john]
ack next
14:33:56 [Zakim]
14:34:40 [josema]
kjetil: digital signatures, powerful stuff to avoid these issues
14:34:51 [john]
sorry - holding phone, typing, thinking - its a whole new multitasking experience!
14:35:55 [john]
I know :)
14:37:19 [john]
14:37:20 [kjetil]
Zakim, mute me
14:37:20 [Zakim]
kjetil should now be muted
14:37:37 [josema]
john: recap at the F2F, maybe come up with another couple cases in the morning
14:37:44 [josema]
...shape them in the afternoon
14:37:49 [josema]
move to next agendum
14:37:49 [Zakim]
agendum 8. "Next Meeting" taken up [from josema]
14:38:05 [josema]
Next meeting: F2F, then 29 Oct
14:38:33 [josema]
john: we have a little bit more clarity for F2F
14:38:42 [josema]
... a couple more areas to work on
14:38:53 [josema]
...and useful conversation today
14:39:16 [josema]
...encourage you to post your thoughts before next week
14:39:22 [josema] we could take up at the F2F
14:39:44 [john]
14:39:53 [josema]
14:40:51 [Zakim]
14:40:53 [Zakim]
14:40:56 [Zakim]
14:40:58 [Zakim]
14:40:59 [Zakim]
14:41:04 [josema]
RRSagent, draft minutes
14:41:04 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate josema
14:41:36 [josema]
zakim, drop vagner
14:41:36 [Zakim]
Vagner is being disconnected
14:41:37 [Zakim]
14:47:58 [Zakim]
14:47:59 [Zakim]
T&S_EGOV()9:00AM has ended
14:48:01 [Zakim]
Attendees were john, Josema, +31.61.830.aaaa, +1.301.455.aabb, +31.61.830.aacc, +1.509.464.aadd, martin, +1.202.731.aaee, kevin, +1.509.464.aaff, rachel, +1.301.455.aagg, owen,
14:48:03 [Zakim]
... trond, +55115509aahh, Vagner, oscar, kjetil, washingtona
14:48:46 [josema]
zakim, who's here?
14:48:46 [Zakim]
apparently T&S_EGOV()9:00AM has ended, josema
14:48:48 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, john, josema, kjetil, trackbot
14:49:15 [josema]
regrets+ chris
14:49:21 [josema]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:49:21 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate josema
15:07:30 [josema]
zakim, bye
15:07:31 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #egov
15:07:34 [josema]
RRSAgent, bye
15:07:34 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items