14:54:07 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdfa
14:54:07 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/10/09-rdfa-irc
14:54:15 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdfa
14:54:23 <msporny> zakim, this will be rdfa
14:54:23 <Zakim> ok, msporny; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start in 6 minutes
14:54:39 <msporny> Meeting: RDF in XHTML Task Force
14:55:20 <msporny> Present: Ralph_Swick, Steven_Pemberton, Mark_Birbeck, Shane_McCarron, Manu_Sporny
14:55:32 <msporny> Regrets: Michael_Hausenblas, Ben_Adida
14:55:39 <msporny> Chair: Manu_Sporny
14:55:56 <msporny> rrsagent, make log public
14:56:02 <msporny> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:56:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/09-rdfa-minutes.html msporny
14:56:10 <Steven> back
14:56:32 <ShaneM> I will be here
14:56:54 <Ralph> -> http://www.w3.org/2008/10/02-rdfa-minutes.html previous 2008-10-02
14:56:55 <msporny> previous: http://www.w3.org/2008/10/02-rdfa-minutes.html
14:57:02 <msporny> woops :)
14:57:11 <Ralph> :)
14:57:33 <msporny> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Oct/0099.html
14:58:27 <msporny> mind scribing, Ralph?
14:58:36 <Ralph> scribe: Ralph
14:59:18 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started
14:59:39 <Zakim> +Ralph
15:00:12 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
15:00:12 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
15:00:13 <Zakim> +Steven
15:00:32 <Zakim> +??P21
15:00:39 <msporny> zakim, I am ??P21
15:00:39 <Zakim> +msporny; got it
15:01:01 <Zakim> +McCarron
15:02:31 <Ralph> Ralph: I'm adding RDFa to the XHTML namespace document (XHTML version) too
15:02:36 <Ralph> ... to get http://www.w3.org/2007/08/grddl/?docAddr=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F1999%2Fxhtml%2FOverview.xhtml&output=turtleplain to work
15:02:47 <Ralph> regrets: Ben, Michael
15:02:57 <Ralph> regrets+ Mark
15:03:24 <Ralph> Topic: Action Review
15:03:42 <Ralph> [DONE] ACTION: Ben ask Shane to produce an updated Syntax with editorial changes for the WG to review next week [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/02-rdfa-minutes.html#action17]
15:03:42 <Ralph>  
15:04:10 <Ralph> [CONTINUES] ACTION: Ben to close loop with Danny. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/18-rdfa-minutes.html#action19]
15:04:30 <Ralph> [CONTINUES] ACTION: Jeremy to demonstrate GRDDL with XHTML/RDFa once the NS URI is set up. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action03]
15:06:51 <markbirbeck> zakim, code?
15:06:51 <Zakim> the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck
15:07:24 <Ralph> Ralph: I've been asked to demonstrate that our GRDDL namespace markup works via http://www.w3.org/2007/08/grddl
15:07:27 <Zakim> + +0208761aaaa
15:07:36 <Ralph> zakim, aaaa is Mark
15:07:36 <markbirbeck> zakim, i am aaaa
15:07:38 <Zakim> +Mark; got it
15:07:39 <Ralph> regrets- Mark
15:07:41 <Zakim> sorry, markbirbeck, I do not see a party named 'aaaa'
15:08:14 <Ralph> [CONTINUES] ACTION: Manu talk with Jamie McCarthy about an AskSlashdot piece [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action04]
15:08:24 <Ralph> [CONTINUES] ACTION: Manu to write summary for Semantic Web Use Cases for Ivan. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]
15:08:35 <Ralph> [CONTINUES] ACTION: Manu write the perl code for Slashdot. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
15:08:43 <Ralph> [CONTINUES] ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
15:08:50 <Ralph> [CONTINUES] ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
15:08:57 <Ralph> [CONTINUES] ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]
15:09:04 <Ralph> [CONTINUES] ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]
15:09:33 <Ralph> agenda+ RDFa attributes in SVG Tiny [Steven]
15:09:57 <Ralph> next item
15:10:05 <Ralph> zakim, take up item 1
15:10:05 <Zakim> agendum 1. "RDFa attributes in SVG Tiny" taken up [from Steven via Ralph]
15:10:08 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGMobile12/metadata.html#MetadataAttributes
15:10:39 <Ralph> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Oct/0097.html Late notice: RDFa in SVG 1.2 'tiny' [Steven 2008-10-09]
15:11:11 <Ralph> Manu: should we suggest they adopt RDFa more closely?
15:11:34 <Ralph> Mark: they insist on a:b format which is incorrect
15:11:52 <Ralph> ... it would be a shame to insist on this
15:12:16 <Ralph> Manu: so ask that they not misuse @property and @typeof
15:12:27 <Ralph> Shane: I'm planning to send the same comment w.r.t. @role
15:12:55 <Ralph> Manu: so ask the SVG folk to follow the pattern of RDFa usage set by XHTML
15:13:18 <Ralph> ... if you choose to use these [RDFa] attributes
15:13:43 <Ralph> Shane: yes, there are modules and those modules should be used -- and the modules have behavioral characteristics
15:13:56 <Ralph> Manu: I'll try to write up a draft comment today
15:14:36 <msporny> ACTION: Manu to create SVG Tiny draft comment and send to RDFa list for feedback before sending to SVG Tiny workgroup.
15:15:09 <Ralph> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Oct/0101.html Dan Brickley's comment on requiring a:b for RDFa in SVG tiny
15:15:24 <Ralph> Topic: Thoughts on Latest Primer
15:15:45 <Ralph> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Oct/0093.html Primer, and regrets for tomorrow [Ben 2008-10-08]
15:15:55 <msporny> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/primer/
15:16:01 <Ralph> Manu: Section 4.1 added
15:17:14 <Ralph> Shane: typo in 4.1; s/2. Distributing and/2. Distributing an/
15:17:41 <Ralph> Manu: 4.1 looks good to me
15:17:43 <Ralph> Ralph: me too
15:18:00 <Ralph> Shane: looks fine
15:18:03 <Ralph> Steven: yep
15:19:34 <markbirbeck> s/RDF extensibility is the same that enables/RDF extensibility is the same as that which enables/
15:20:00 <markbirbeck> s/Once an RDF vocabulary created/Once an RDF vocabulary is created/
15:20:08 <Ralph> Mark: typo in 4.1, 2nd sentence; "RDF extensibility is the same that enables RDFa extensibility"
15:20:37 <Ralph> Ralph: just insert "mechanism" after "same"
15:21:10 <Ralph> Mark: 3rd sentence; "Once an RDF vocabulary /+is+/ created,  ..."
15:22:18 <Ralph> Mark: not sure this is territory we should get into
15:22:29 <Ralph> Ralph: I do think this minimal information is needed
15:22:48 <Ralph> Mark: people who don't know this won't be able to do it from this text; they'll need a pointer to more
15:22:57 <Ralph> Ralph: exactly, the pointer is there in paragraph 2
15:23:08 <Ralph> Shane: I'm with Ralph
15:23:18 <Ralph> Mark: we could say a full description is out of scope
15:23:30 <Ralph> Shane: point to our vocab document?  It's also written in RDFa
15:24:47 <Ralph> Ralph: I favor a minimalist approach in this document
15:24:57 <Ralph> Mark: the point we're stressing is in the first paragraph
15:25:51 <Ralph> ... not a show stopper; this text is OK
15:26:38 <Ralph> ... though I suggest adding "Though it is beyond the scope of this document,
15:26:52 <Ralph> ... before "At a high level"
15:27:15 <msporny> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Oct/0075.html
15:27:18 <Ralph> Topic: Axel Polleres' comments
15:27:22 <markbirbeck> Maybe: "Although it's beyond the scope of this primer to explain the process in detail, here is a high-level description of the process to help authors to find more information."
15:27:45 <Ralph> Manu: Axel's comments point to a small bit of confusion on how to resolve CURIEs
15:29:05 <Ralph> Ralph: most of this is editorial but the first part points to a typo
15:29:37 <Ralph> Shane: yep
15:29:41 <Ralph> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Oct/0081.html Ben's reply
15:30:02 <Ralph> Shane: I believe everything in Axel's message is taken care of
15:30:31 <Ralph> ... in 5.5 step 9 there was a suggested addition on which I wanted Mark's review
15:31:17 <Ralph> Mark: I'll try to look at this thread this evening
15:32:26 <Ralph> Shane: if Mark agrees on this change (see "Mark's agreement and explicit wording" in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Oct/0082.html ) I'll make it, otherwise not
15:32:38 <Ralph> ... some of DERI's comments were good catches
15:35:24 <msporny> scibenick: msporny
15:35:35 <msporny> Topic: Publishing Issues
15:35:57 <msporny> ShaneM: We should be listing the task force participants, semweb participants
15:36:14 <msporny> ShaneM: and XHTML2 WG
15:36:31 <msporny> Ralph: those lists are available, do you need me to send them to you?
15:36:42 <msporny> ShaneM: yes.
15:36:49 <Ralph> ACTION: Ralph send Shane the lists of participants
15:37:18 <msporny> Manu: anything else we need?
15:37:57 <Ralph> Manu: looking at the updated XHTML vocab document, I discovered that my code was generating some wrong URIs
15:38:05 <msporny> [base] == http://example.org/foo.html#bar
15:38:08 <Ralph> ... because the base URI was different from what I expected
15:38:25 <Ralph> ... when you pass in this base the fragment is included in the base
15:38:27 <msporny> about="#baz"
15:38:37 <msporny> http://example.org/foo.html#bar#baz
15:38:49 <Ralph> ^ an incorrect URI
15:39:20 <Ralph> Manu: this isn't an issue with RDFa; it's an issue with parser code if the parser implementor forgets to strip off fragments
15:39:31 <ShaneM> current draft: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-rdfa-syntax-20081004/#s_curieprocessing
15:39:48 <Ralph> Manu: but we don't explicitly mention the need to strip fragments from base
15:40:05 <Ralph> Shane: in section 5.2 we define "the base"
15:40:14 <Ralph> ... "usually the URL of the document being processed"
15:41:16 <Ralph> Mark: elsewhere I thought we'd said something about this because when you work out the code for @about="" you have to remove the fragment
15:41:39 <Ralph> ... don't we talk about this in the text about HEAD and BODY
15:41:47 <Ralph> Steven: but this is part of URI spec
15:41:53 <Ralph> Shane: however, we don't explicitly say it
15:42:15 <Ralph> Steven: the definition of an empty string string for relative URIs is that the fragment gets dropped
15:42:31 <Ralph> Shane: it's more than this; it's "what does base mean"; we concatenate to base
15:42:42 <Ralph> Mark: no, we resolve relative to base -- not concatenate
15:43:38 <Ralph> Shane: 5.4 describes what happens when CURIEs are resolved
15:44:04 <Ralph> Mark: "... any relative URIs will need to be resolved relative to the base URI..."
15:45:04 <markbirbeck> Also, 5.4.2:
15:45:07 <markbirbeck> Note that it is generally considered a good idea not to use relative paths in namespace declarations, but since it is possible that an author may ignore this guidance, it is further possible that the URI obtained from a CURIE is relative. However, since all URIs must be resolved relative to [base] before being used to create triples, the use of relative paths should not have any effect on processing.
15:45:28 <Ralph> Ralph: I don't think we need to say anything more than what is currently in 5.4
15:45:55 <Ralph> Shane: the only additional thing we might do is cite the production for relative URI
15:46:26 <Ralph> Mark: however, base can be a relative URI and this would emphasize that the resolution algorithm must be applied
15:46:29 <msporny> URL RFC: Section 5.1: If the
15:46:29 <msporny>    base URI is obtained from a URI reference, then that reference must
15:46:29 <msporny>    be converted to absolute form and stripped of any fragment component
15:46:29 <msporny>    prior to its use as a base URI.
15:46:55 <Ralph> Mark: the algorithm is _always_ 'resolve this path relative to this other path'
15:47:30 <Ralph> ... we don't have to say base is absolute; we just have to say that everything is resolved according to this algorithm
15:49:34 <Ralph> ... the markup need not contain an absolute URI in @base but by the time one gets to applying the RFC algorithm, the base URI will become absolute
15:49:46 <Ralph> Manu: I'm worried that we don't have a test case
15:50:06 <Ralph> ... we should add a test that has @base with a fragment
15:50:16 <Ralph> ... and a relative @about
15:50:23 <msporny> base="http://example.org/test.html#foo"
15:50:29 <msporny> about="#baz"
15:50:33 <Ralph> Mark: this is the same scenario as navigating to a document with a fragment in the URI
15:50:43 <Ralph> ... the base URI of the document is the URI without the fragment
15:50:47 <msporny> The URL that should be generated should be: "http://example.org/test.html#baz"
15:50:58 <Ralph> Shane: what spec says that the base in that scenario doesn't have a fragment?
15:52:42 <Ralph> Ralph: I don't see that it matters whether the fragment happened to have been stored with the base or not; it's clear that after applying the resolution algorithm any fragment given with the base drops out
15:52:54 <Ralph> Shane: so @about="" should resolve to a URI without a fragment?
15:52:56 <Ralph> Ralph, Mark: yes
15:53:07 <Ralph> Shane: ah, so we need a test case for that
15:53:31 <Ralph> ... actually, it's the absence of @about we should test, because @about="" does get run through the resolver
15:54:04 <msporny> ACTION: Manu to create two TCs to test fragment identifiers dropped during URI resolution against [base] 
15:54:29 <msporny> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Oct/0027.html
15:54:35 <Ralph> Topic: Dean Edridge's comments
15:55:42 <Ralph> Shane: DOCTYPE was moved to Appendix C _informative_
15:55:56 <ShaneM> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-rdfa-syntax-20081004/#docconf
15:56:58 <Ralph> Ralph: we have considered this issue before and there is no new evidence presented
15:57:09 <Ralph> Shane: the additional evidence is HTML5
15:57:38 <Ralph> ... we could point out that Appendix C says that if the author _does_ want to DTD validate, here's how to do it
15:58:12 <Ralph> Steven: it seems that they want any document without a DOCTYPE to be interpreted as HTML5
15:59:34 <Ralph> ... a formal reply should come from Ben, as Chair, saying we've discussed this already and we're not seeing any new information
16:01:08 <Ralph> Shane: we already sent him that answer and he wasn't happy so it needs to come from the Chair, and point also to Appendix C
16:02:28 <Ralph> Steven: and in 4.1 Document Conformance, we have "There SHOULD be a @version attribute ..."
16:05:21 <Ralph> [adjourned]
16:05:24 <Ralph> zakim, list attendees
16:05:24 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Ralph, Steven, msporny, McCarron, +0208761aaaa, Mark
16:05:32 <Ralph> rrsagent, please draft minutes
16:05:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/09-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph
16:12:06 <markbirbeck> <span xmlns:foo="bah">
16:12:12 <markbirbeck> foo:x
16:12:29 <markbirbeck> foo
16:13:32 <markbirbeck> next, license
16:13:51 <markbirbeck> xmlns:next="....#nat"
16:13:58 <markbirbeck> s/nat/next/
16:15:33 <msporny> prefix="hcard=http://microformats.org/vocab#hcard fn=http://microformats.org/vocab#fn"
16:15:39 <Steven> For the record, I like the approach
16:16:10 <msporny> <div typeof="hcard">...<span property="fn">My Name</span></div>
16:19:25 <msporny> thanks for staying Steven :)
16:23:14 <Zakim> -Steven
16:24:59 <msporny> <div profile="http://microformats.org/vocab/hcard">...</div>
16:26:01 <Zakim> -Ralph
16:31:08 <msporny> <div prefix="http://microformats.org/vocab/hcard">...</div>
16:32:15 <msporny> <div prefix="http://microformats.org/vocab/hcard dc=http://dublincore.com/whatever#">...</div>
16:35:43 <ShaneM> http://www.rdfa.info/wiki/RDFa_Vocabularies
16:40:16 <markbirbeck> rel="foo"
16:40:50 <markbirbeck> rel=":foo"
16:41:13 <markbirbeck> prefix="foo=http:///..."
16:41:21 <markbirbeck> xmlns:foo="..."
16:51:58 <ShaneM> dc:author
16:52:08 <ShaneM> xmlns:dc="laksjdad"
16:52:55 <markbirbeck> <div token="x=y">
16:53:14 <markbirbeck> token:z
16:53:42 <markbirbeck> xmlns:token
16:54:18 <msporny> <div prefix="http://microformats.org/vocab/hcard http://microformats.org/vocab/haudio">...</div>
16:54:46 <msporny> <div profile="http://microformats.org/vocab/hcard http://microformats.org/vocab/haudio">...</div>
16:55:29 <markbirbeck> <div include="...">
16:58:30 <msporny> <div prefix="dc=http://dcterms.org/vocab">
16:58:35 <msporny> <div prefix="http://dcterms.org/vocab">
16:59:38 <msporny> <div prefix="http://dcterms.org/vocab http://haudio.org/vocab">...</div>
17:00:24 <markbirbeck> @prefix => @xmlns:x
17:01:06 <markbirbeck> @profile => XInclude for RDFa
17:02:50 <markbirbeck> @token="fn=http://...hcard#fn"
17:03:16 <markbirbeck> property="fn"
17:03:45 <markbirbeck> fn[:[x]]
17:04:45 <Zakim> -Mark
17:14:09 <msporny> DEFAULT_TOKENS=http://.../
17:15:50 <ShaneM> _=http:
17:16:10 <msporny> INCLUDE=http://microformats.org/vocab
17:16:12 <ShaneM> =http:/
17:16:27 <msporny> =http://microformats.org/vocab
17:17:40 <msporny> <div prefix="=http://w3.org/xhtml/vocab">
17:17:48 <msporny> <div prefix="=http://w3.org/xhtml/vocab http://microformats.org/vocab">
17:17:50 <ShaneM> foo=URI means map; =URI means map default; URI means load URI
17:18:24 <msporny> <div prefix="=http://w3.org/svg/vocab http://microformats.org/vocab">
17:19:21 <ShaneM> and "URI means load URI" is equivalent to profile="URI" in the head
17:19:30 <ShaneM> except scoped, of course
17:23:25 <ShaneM> http://www.rdfa.info/wiki/RDFa_Vocabularies#Defining_a_prefix_mapping
17:30:34 <Zakim> -msporny
17:30:36 <Zakim> -McCarron
17:30:36 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended
17:30:38 <Zakim> Attendees were Ralph, Steven, msporny, McCarron, +0208761aaaa, Mark
17:50:43 <ShaneM> ShaneM has left #rdfa