IRC log of xhtml on 2008-10-08

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:44:46 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #xhtml

13:44:46 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/10/08-xhtml-irc

13:44:46 [oedipus]

damn screen reader...

13:45:57 [Roland]

rrsagent, make minutes

13:45:57 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/08-xhtml-minutes.html Roland

13:46:00 [ShaneM]

zakim, who is here

13:46:00 [Zakim]

ShaneM, you need to end that query with '?'

13:46:04 [ShaneM]

zakim, who is here?

13:46:04 [Zakim]

sorry, ShaneM, I don't know what conference this is

13:46:04 [Roland]

zakim, this is xhtml2

13:46:05 [Zakim]

On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, alessio, Roland, ShaneM, oedipus, Steven, trackbot

13:46:05 [Steven]

zakim, dial steven-617

13:46:06 [Zakim]

ok, Roland; that matches IA_XHTML2()9:45AM

13:46:08 [Zakim]

ok, Steven; the call is being made

13:46:10 [Zakim]

+Steven

13:46:15 [Steven]

trackbot, start telcon

13:46:18 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, make logs public

13:46:20 [trackbot]

Zakim, this will be IA_XHTML2

13:46:20 [Roland]

rrsagent, make log public

13:46:21 [trackbot]

Meeting: XHTML2 Working Group Teleconference

13:46:21 [trackbot]

Date: 08 October 2008

13:46:23 [Zakim]

ok, trackbot, I see IA_XHTML2()9:45AM already started

13:47:32 [oedipus]

Regrets: Tina, Mark

13:47:44 [oedipus]

guess it's time to call in...

13:47:48 [Steven]

Previous: http://www.w3.org/2008/10/01-xhtml-minutes

13:47:57 [Zakim]

+??P7

13:48:09 [alessio]

zakim, ??P7 is Alessio

13:48:09 [Zakim]

+Alessio; got it

13:48:19 [Zakim]

+Gregory_Rosmaita

13:50:24 [oedipus]

zakim, who is here?

13:50:25 [Zakim]

On the phone I see ??P2, McCarron, Steven, Alessio, Gregory_Rosmaita

13:50:27 [Zakim]

On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, alessio, Roland, ShaneM, oedipus, Steven, trackbot

13:50:27 [Steven]

Agenda+M12N Transition

13:50:42 [Steven]

Agenda+CURIE comments

13:50:49 [Steven]

Agenda+XForms access comments

13:51:34 [Steven]

Agenda+ TPAC FtF Agenda

13:51:51 [oedipus]

Scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita

13:51:55 [oedipus]

ScribeNick: oedipus

13:52:04 [oedipus]

TOPIC: Agenda Addenda?

13:52:14 [oedipus]

RM: no - can have quick look at trackbot

13:52:19 [Steven]

trackbot, help

13:52:19 [trackbot]

See http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help

13:52:33 [Steven]

trackbot, where?

13:52:33 [trackbot]

Sorry, Steven, I don't understand 'trackbot, where?'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help

13:52:52 [Steven]

trackbot, status

13:53:05 [oedipus]

try http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/users/my

13:53:15 [Steven]

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/tracker/

13:53:34 [oedipus]

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/tracker/agenda

13:54:21 [oedipus]

http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/web

13:54:54 [oedipus]

TOPIC: Comments on CURIE

13:55:01 [oedipus]

RM: feedback reactions?

13:55:32 [oedipus]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Oct/0005.html

13:55:41 [oedipus]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Oct/0007.html

13:55:52 [oedipus]

the last got a plus one from alessio

13:56:16 [alessio]

yes, thx gregory

13:56:17 [oedipus]

SP: "QNames unsuitable..." want us to reformulate unsuitability

13:56:45 [oedipus]

SM: cite their own document to say why unsuitable -- don't blame us, we're following the TAG's lead (they are it)

13:56:56 [cbottoml]

cbottoml has joined #xhtml

13:57:02 [oedipus]

SP: "inappropriate for CURIE syntax in languages where spec does not allow it..."

13:57:38 [oedipus]

SM: suspicion has been that we are planning on substituting CURIEs for URIs -- comment shows situation hasn't improved -- don't understand difference

13:57:53 [oedipus]

SM: point is, can't shoe-horn in a CURIE unless someone asked for it

13:57:57 [oedipus]

RM: reasonable comment

13:58:07 [oedipus]

SM: if this is how to answer comment after trying for a year, then ok

13:58:11 [oedipus]

RM: seems reasonable

13:59:16 [oedipus]

SP: quotes: "CURIEs and safe CURIEs not be be used as attributes... other content may be written for CURIEs or IRIs - must be disambiguation - all CURIEs therefore must be expressed as strong CURIEs"

13:59:42 [oedipus]

SP: not sure i agree - "all CURIEs provided as safe curies"

13:59:45 [oedipus]

SM: can live with this

13:59:48 [oedipus]

SP: me too

13:59:54 [alessio]

+1

14:00:02 [oedipus]

GJR: plus 1

14:00:33 [oedipus]

SP: next point has no proposed text:

14:00:45 [oedipus]

s/strong CURIEs/safe_CURIEs

14:01:31 [oedipus]

SM: summarize: in LC WD there was a typo that said lexical space IRI which is NOT what we meant; they say that is bad, and we agree -- suggest doing what we've already done: lexical space is CURIE, value space is IRI

14:02:20 [oedipus]

SM: problem: if base an XSD on XSstring, by definition, the mapping from lexical space to value space is "identity" in XSD terminology; implication is doesn't transform, but it does transform

14:02:31 [oedipus]

SP: XSD says that anything based on strings has to remain a string

14:02:35 [oedipus]

SM: and/or transform

14:02:50 [oedipus]

RM: need to re-review -- URI is a constraint itself

14:02:54 [oedipus]

SP: how about IRI

14:03:04 [oedipus]

RM: only in 1.1 -- at time of 1.0 was only URI

14:03:13 [oedipus]

SP: IRI will transform and not based on string

14:03:29 [oedipus]

SM: new fundamental type so they could achieve end not envisioned by XML Schema

14:03:44 [oedipus]

SM: TAG proposed wording that we have always held to

14:03:52 [oedipus]

RM: use mutually happy words

14:04:16 [oedipus]

SP: so happy with this section of comments?

14:04:18 [oedipus]

SM: yes

14:04:45 [oedipus]

s/safe CURIEs/safe_CURIEs

14:04:53 [oedipus]

rrsagent, make minutes

14:04:53 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/08-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

14:05:28 [oedipus]

SM: propose 2 diff wordings: suggest "rules for error report recovery should be provided in host language" -- appeals to me

14:06:07 [oedipus]

SM: saying we've made assumption, they want us to specify how works; gives everyone more flexibility; wonder what MarkB would think of that...

14:06:37 [oedipus]

SP: have to decide if want to say error handling defined or error handling must/should be provided by host language

14:06:41 [oedipus]

SM: prefer latter

14:06:43 [oedipus]

SP: me too

14:06:55 [oedipus]

GJR: me too

14:06:57 [alessio]

me too

14:07:12 [oedipus]

RM: still looking for IRI def in XSD 1.1

14:07:44 [oedipus]

RM: (reads from XSD 1.1)

14:07:54 [oedipus]

RM: saying can do with IRIs and URIs

14:08:32 [Roland]

http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema11-2/#anyURI

14:09:05 [oedipus]

RM: talking of lexical mapping in section

14:09:19 [oedipus]

RM: doesn't sound as if there is an IRI type as they suggested

14:09:33 [oedipus]

SM: says "mapping is identity mapping" which to me means no transform

14:09:40 [oedipus]

RM: worth reviewing to see if analagous

14:10:02 [oedipus]

SM: my suggestion is have someone from XML Schema WG suggest what they want so we can integrate it

14:10:24 [oedipus]

RM: commenter in both TAG and Schema WG

14:11:05 [oedipus]

proposed RESOLUTION: Rules for error reporting and/or recovery should be provided in the

14:11:05 [oedipus]

specification for the host language.

14:11:33 [oedipus]

SM: have tto reply to fallacious assumption - XML Schema implementation is what is wrong

14:12:03 [oedipus]

SM: asked SMcQueen to help write XSD -- pushed to RDFa and CURIEs already

14:13:01 [oedipus]

RESOLVED: accept "Rules for error reporting and/or recovery should be provided in the specification for the host language.

14:13:09 [oedipus]

rrsagent, make minutes

14:13:09 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/08-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

14:13:30 [oedipus]

SM: does mean should modify RDFa syntax -- will do before Rec, which is this week

14:13:35 [oedipus]

RM: a SHOULD not MUST

14:14:06 [oedipus]

Chair: Roland, Steven

14:14:17 [oedipus]

SM: comments agree with: empty string is not a CURIE

14:14:25 [oedipus]

s/SM: comments/SP: comments

14:14:29 [oedipus]

SP: that is true

14:14:33 [oedipus]

GJR: agreed

14:14:37 [oedipus]

RM: agree

14:14:41 [oedipus]

SM: over the moon

14:14:45 [alessio]

agree

14:15:41 [oedipus]

SM: talked to RalphZ to go to CR before publication moritorium, so he said no -- can't push before TPAC; suggest i complete work, resolve to transition to CR at face2face and then request

14:15:47 [oedipus]

RM: sounds good to me -- same with Role

14:15:50 [oedipus]

SM: and Access

14:15:54 [Steven]

s/RalphZ/RalphS/

14:16:01 [oedipus]

SM: all 3 at once makes story stronger

14:16:29 [oedipus]

RM: Shane will have ready for approval at TPAC

14:16:37 [oedipus]

SM: yes - in 2 weeks time

14:16:46 [oedipus]

TOPIC: M12n

14:17:00 [oedipus]

SP: going to REC today (will be dated today)

14:17:19 [oedipus]

SP: put errata doc up today; sent draft announcement to W3C comm team; hoping announcement will go out today

14:17:30 [oedipus]

SP: definitely going to be out before TPAC, which is very good

14:17:38 [oedipus]

SM: good to finish another deliverable

14:17:55 [oedipus]

SP: thank you shane for producing latest version -- now in hands of comm team

14:18:10 [oedipus]

RM: address Access Module comments?

14:18:16 [oedipus]

TOPIC: Access Module

14:18:30 [oedipus]

RM: comments logged at:

14:19:18 [Steven]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Oct/0006.html

14:19:25 [alessio]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Oct/0006.html

14:20:24 [oedipus]

SP: background: Forms has "repeat" construct that can contain things with IDs -- when repeat gets expanded, you end up with things in shadow tree that are all names with same ID - that is basis of worry -- using access with element that has been duplicated within the tree one is actually accessing

14:20:46 [oedipus]

SP: some short-cuts to take to element with particular ID via access, and problem is, there are more than one of them

14:21:10 [oedipus]

RM: XForms should use target role rather than targetid for access -- exception condition

14:21:18 [oedipus]

RM: use Role as recommended approach?

14:21:21 [oedipus]

SP: not sure

14:21:31 [oedipus]

RM: not error, but pattern for what they need to do

14:21:35 [oedipus]

GJR: plus 1 to RM

14:21:57 [oedipus]

SP: either say what should happen or what happens in markup languages that use this feature should be governed by rules of host language

14:22:18 [oedipus]

SM: duplicate IDs been rejected

14:22:37 [oedipus]

SP: that was in markup - nothing says can't have markup language that has ID on something that gets expanded into DOM tree

14:23:10 [oedipus]

RM: problem with idea that there is no synchronization between the 2 -- 1 to 1 relationship between IDs in DOM and IDs in document; if serialize DOM, expect to get them all out

14:23:24 [oedipus]

RM: multiple items with identical ID values not allowed

14:24:05 [oedipus]

SP: XForms doesn't allow either; need to decide if need to include reference to this in access spec, of say to Forms people, it is a huge problem, but is yours, and pertains to use of other namespaces in your namespace

14:24:22 [oedipus]

RM: suggest create role for this purpose

14:24:47 [oedipus]

SM: in terms of best practice, role created to avoid multiple identical IDs

14:25:05 [oedipus]

SM: module, not ML; when combine XForms+Role, there is "role"

14:25:26 [oedipus]

SP: XHTML+Access+Role+XForms1.0

14:25:35 [oedipus]

RM: for Forms WG to deal with situation

14:26:04 [oedipus]

SP: can point out that interaction between CSS and XForms has to deal with same problem, so re-use that mechanism for this issue

14:26:21 [oedipus]

RM: thought repeaters didn't work with 1.0

14:26:30 [oedipus]

SP: original version didn't convert case

14:27:29 [oedipus]

SM: how would an Access implementation deal/cope with a changing list of targets in its list of potential targets; way access works is to declare there is an access element, associated with this key and these targets

14:27:36 [oedipus]

SP: targets that stop being relevant

14:27:42 [oedipus]

SM: or change position

14:28:24 [oedipus]

SM: DOM changes - if capture list of targets, what happens when list changes - if does change, does it reset to begining -- what happens? we say cycle through list, don't address what to do if list changes

14:28:45 [oedipus]

RM: have to work on processing model - have to ensure node one assumes is current exists, if does, start point, if gone, restart

14:29:01 [oedipus]

SM: do specify what happens, sort of -- re-evaluate list everytime

14:29:14 [oedipus]

RM: if current node is gone, have to go back to start of list

14:29:22 [oedipus]

SP: start or first place where was

14:29:27 [oedipus]

RM: a lot could change

14:29:44 [oedipus]

SM: about focus - something always has focus - next item in document order

14:29:51 [oedipus]

RM: what if change by diff mechanism

14:30:04 [oedipus]

SM: doesn't matter if item in list of targets has focus or not in terms of processing model

14:30:38 [oedipus]

RM: need to state: do not cater for mulitple IDs in our spec; for any language that does, that language will have to define how to deal with situation

14:30:43 [oedipus]

GJR: plus 1

14:31:23 [oedipus]

SP: dynamic content generation -- agree need to deal with issue, but particular case is something we don't intend to deal with

14:31:47 [alessio]

+1

14:31:48 [oedipus]

RM: if inserted new piece of content, can re-evaluate and include;

14:32:02 [oedipus]

SM: belive covered in section 3.1.4

14:32:02 [ShaneM]

http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtml-access-20080820/#A_order

14:32:40 [oedipus]

"For the sake of determining navigation order, elements in the document that match the values in the targetid or targetrole attributes are called matching elements, and all elements that match the same value are members of an element group. Note: since the id of an element must be unique within a valid XML document, in such documents, each element group based on targetid values consist of no more than one matching element."

14:33:04 [oedipus]

SM: answer in last sentence of section: "The location of the next matching element MUST be determined each time the access element is triggered, since it is possible that between events the contents of the document will have changed."

14:33:26 [oedipus]

RM: is this version of draft commented upon?

14:33:40 [oedipus]

http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-xhtml-access-20080526

14:34:01 [oedipus]

GJR: commented on one in TR space which doesn't have what ED has

14:34:09 [oedipus]

SM: point them to Editor's Draft

14:34:16 [oedipus]

RM: anyone in position to send reply?

14:34:25 [oedipus]

SM: i can do it

14:35:06 [oedipus]

ACTION: Shane - reply to Forms comments, point to latest Editor's Draft to ascertain if have alleviated their concerns

14:35:06 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-4 - - reply to Forms comments, point to latest Editor's Draft to ascertain if have alleviated their concerns [on Shane McCarron - due 2008-10-15].

14:35:12 [oedipus]

RM: pretty late for a comment

14:35:26 [oedipus]

SM: "not alone in concern about this issue, so it has already been addressed"

14:35:38 [oedipus]

SP: special case of generating elements in repeat won't call out

14:39:33 [Steven]

zakim, agenda?

14:39:33 [Zakim]

I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:

14:39:34 [Zakim]

1. M12N Transition [from Steven]

14:39:35 [oedipus]

RM: anything else for access?

14:39:36 [Zakim]

2. CURIE comments [from Steven]

14:39:37 [Zakim]

3. XForms access comments [from Steven]

14:39:38 [Zakim]

4. TPAC FtF Agenda [from Steven]

14:39:43 [Steven]

zakim, close agendum 1

14:39:43 [Zakim]

agendum 1, M12N Transition, closed

14:39:44 [Zakim]

I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

14:39:45 [Zakim]

2. CURIE comments [from Steven]

14:39:52 [oedipus]

GJR: still trying to get feedback on what to do for notification when keybindings change

14:40:02 [Steven]

zakim, close agendum 2

14:40:02 [Zakim]

agendum 2, CURIE comments, closed

14:40:03 [Zakim]

I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

14:40:04 [Zakim]

3. XForms access comments [from Steven]

14:40:15 [Steven]

zakim, close agendum 3

14:40:15 [Zakim]

agendum 3, XForms access comments, closed

14:40:16 [Zakim]

I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:

14:40:17 [Zakim]

4. TPAC FtF Agenda [from Steven]

14:40:17 [oedipus]

SM: want to ensure replied to all LC comments before TPAC

14:40:37 [oedipus]

TOPIC: TPAC f2f Agenda

14:40:44 [oedipus]

RM: please send suggestions for agenda to list

14:40:53 [oedipus]

RM: created TPAC page on XHTML2 WG wiki

14:41:05 [oedipus]

RM: will shape agenda next week

14:41:24 [oedipus]

SP: next week Forms group having virtual F2F next week

14:41:32 [oedipus]

SP: wednesday and thursday next week

14:42:04 [oedipus]

SP: starts at 3 and ends at midnight my time, will try to attend as long as possible

14:42:10 [oedipus]

TOPIC: Vocab Document

14:42:14 [oedipus]

RM: where is RDFa?

14:42:36 [oedipus]

SM: SP stripped all of RDFa out of document when updated

14:42:49 [oedipus]

SP: Amaya must have done that or were we editing simultaneously

14:42:55 [oedipus]

SM: no

14:43:07 [oedipus]

SP: apologies -- will dig out old version from CVS

14:43:12 [oedipus]

SM: reapply changes

14:43:29 [oedipus]

SM: i have RDF changes would like to make changes -- will email to SP

14:44:12 [oedipus]

SM: confirm days meeting at TPAC?

14:44:22 [oedipus]

RM: 23 and 24 october 2008

14:44:35 [oedipus]

RM: registered as observer at XForms

14:45:31 [oedipus]

GJR: suggest talk with RWAB XG folks

14:45:33 [oedipus]

ADJOURN

14:45:41 [Zakim]

-McCarron

14:45:42 [Zakim]

-Steven

14:45:43 [Zakim]

-Alessio

14:45:43 [Zakim]

-Gregory_Rosmaita

14:45:43 [Zakim]

-??P2

14:45:45 [Zakim]

IA_XHTML2()9:45AM has ended

14:45:46 [Zakim]

Attendees were McCarron, Steven, Alessio, Gregory_Rosmaita

14:45:59 [oedipus]

present+ Roland_Merrick

14:46:05 [oedipus]

rrsagent, make minutes

14:46:05 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/08-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

14:46:33 [oedipus]

Agenda Planning via Tracker: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/tracker/agenda

14:46:44 [oedipus]

Recent Tracker Activity: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/tracker/changelog

14:47:05 [oedipus]

add new "products" using: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/tracker/products

14:47:10 [oedipus]

rrsagent, make minutes

14:47:10 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/08-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

14:48:33 [oedipus]

Tracker "Home": http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/

14:48:38 [oedipus]

rrsagent, make minutes

14:48:38 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/08-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus

14:48:44 [oedipus]

zakim, please part

14:48:44 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #xhtml

14:49:52 [oedipus]

rrsagent, please part

14:49:52 [RRSAgent]

I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/08-xhtml-actions.rdf :

14:49:52 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Shane - reply to Forms comments, point to latest Editor's Draft to ascertain if have alleviated their concerns [1]

14:49:52 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/08-xhtml-irc#T14-35-06