IRC log of xhtml on 2008-10-08

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:44:46 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #xhtml
13:44:46 [RRSAgent]
logging to
13:44:46 [oedipus]
damn screen reader...
13:45:57 [Roland]
rrsagent, make minutes
13:45:57 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Roland
13:46:00 [ShaneM]
zakim, who is here
13:46:00 [Zakim]
ShaneM, you need to end that query with '?'
13:46:04 [ShaneM]
zakim, who is here?
13:46:04 [Zakim]
sorry, ShaneM, I don't know what conference this is
13:46:04 [Roland]
zakim, this is xhtml2
13:46:05 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, alessio, Roland, ShaneM, oedipus, Steven, trackbot
13:46:05 [Steven]
zakim, dial steven-617
13:46:06 [Zakim]
ok, Roland; that matches IA_XHTML2()9:45AM
13:46:08 [Zakim]
ok, Steven; the call is being made
13:46:10 [Zakim]
13:46:15 [Steven]
trackbot, start telcon
13:46:18 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
13:46:20 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be IA_XHTML2
13:46:20 [Roland]
rrsagent, make log public
13:46:21 [trackbot]
Meeting: XHTML2 Working Group Teleconference
13:46:21 [trackbot]
Date: 08 October 2008
13:46:23 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot, I see IA_XHTML2()9:45AM already started
13:47:32 [oedipus]
Regrets: Tina, Mark
13:47:44 [oedipus]
guess it's time to call in...
13:47:48 [Steven]
13:47:57 [Zakim]
13:48:09 [alessio]
zakim, ??P7 is Alessio
13:48:09 [Zakim]
+Alessio; got it
13:48:19 [Zakim]
13:50:24 [oedipus]
zakim, who is here?
13:50:25 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ??P2, McCarron, Steven, Alessio, Gregory_Rosmaita
13:50:27 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, alessio, Roland, ShaneM, oedipus, Steven, trackbot
13:50:27 [Steven]
Agenda+M12N Transition
13:50:42 [Steven]
Agenda+CURIE comments
13:50:49 [Steven]
Agenda+XForms access comments
13:51:34 [Steven]
Agenda+ TPAC FtF Agenda
13:51:51 [oedipus]
Scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
13:51:55 [oedipus]
ScribeNick: oedipus
13:52:04 [oedipus]
TOPIC: Agenda Addenda?
13:52:14 [oedipus]
RM: no - can have quick look at trackbot
13:52:19 [Steven]
trackbot, help
13:52:19 [trackbot]
See for help
13:52:33 [Steven]
trackbot, where?
13:52:33 [trackbot]
Sorry, Steven, I don't understand 'trackbot, where?'. Please refer to for help
13:52:52 [Steven]
trackbot, status
13:53:05 [oedipus]
13:53:15 [Steven]
13:53:34 [oedipus]
13:54:21 [oedipus]
13:54:54 [oedipus]
TOPIC: Comments on CURIE
13:55:01 [oedipus]
RM: feedback reactions?
13:55:32 [oedipus]
13:55:41 [oedipus]
13:55:52 [oedipus]
the last got a plus one from alessio
13:56:16 [alessio]
yes, thx gregory
13:56:17 [oedipus]
SP: "QNames unsuitable..." want us to reformulate unsuitability
13:56:45 [oedipus]
SM: cite their own document to say why unsuitable -- don't blame us, we're following the TAG's lead (they are it)
13:56:56 [cbottoml]
cbottoml has joined #xhtml
13:57:02 [oedipus]
SP: "inappropriate for CURIE syntax in languages where spec does not allow it..."
13:57:38 [oedipus]
SM: suspicion has been that we are planning on substituting CURIEs for URIs -- comment shows situation hasn't improved -- don't understand difference
13:57:53 [oedipus]
SM: point is, can't shoe-horn in a CURIE unless someone asked for it
13:57:57 [oedipus]
RM: reasonable comment
13:58:07 [oedipus]
SM: if this is how to answer comment after trying for a year, then ok
13:58:11 [oedipus]
RM: seems reasonable
13:59:16 [oedipus]
SP: quotes: "CURIEs and safe CURIEs not be be used as attributes... other content may be written for CURIEs or IRIs - must be disambiguation - all CURIEs therefore must be expressed as strong CURIEs"
13:59:42 [oedipus]
SP: not sure i agree - "all CURIEs provided as safe curies"
13:59:45 [oedipus]
SM: can live with this
13:59:48 [oedipus]
SP: me too
13:59:54 [alessio]
14:00:02 [oedipus]
GJR: plus 1
14:00:33 [oedipus]
SP: next point has no proposed text:
14:00:45 [oedipus]
s/strong CURIEs/safe_CURIEs
14:01:31 [oedipus]
SM: summarize: in LC WD there was a typo that said lexical space IRI which is NOT what we meant; they say that is bad, and we agree -- suggest doing what we've already done: lexical space is CURIE, value space is IRI
14:02:20 [oedipus]
SM: problem: if base an XSD on XSstring, by definition, the mapping from lexical space to value space is "identity" in XSD terminology; implication is doesn't transform, but it does transform
14:02:31 [oedipus]
SP: XSD says that anything based on strings has to remain a string
14:02:35 [oedipus]
SM: and/or transform
14:02:50 [oedipus]
RM: need to re-review -- URI is a constraint itself
14:02:54 [oedipus]
SP: how about IRI
14:03:04 [oedipus]
RM: only in 1.1 -- at time of 1.0 was only URI
14:03:13 [oedipus]
SP: IRI will transform and not based on string
14:03:29 [oedipus]
SM: new fundamental type so they could achieve end not envisioned by XML Schema
14:03:44 [oedipus]
SM: TAG proposed wording that we have always held to
14:03:52 [oedipus]
RM: use mutually happy words
14:04:16 [oedipus]
SP: so happy with this section of comments?
14:04:18 [oedipus]
SM: yes
14:04:45 [oedipus]
s/safe CURIEs/safe_CURIEs
14:04:53 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:04:53 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
14:05:28 [oedipus]
SM: propose 2 diff wordings: suggest "rules for error report recovery should be provided in host language" -- appeals to me
14:06:07 [oedipus]
SM: saying we've made assumption, they want us to specify how works; gives everyone more flexibility; wonder what MarkB would think of that...
14:06:37 [oedipus]
SP: have to decide if want to say error handling defined or error handling must/should be provided by host language
14:06:41 [oedipus]
SM: prefer latter
14:06:43 [oedipus]
SP: me too
14:06:55 [oedipus]
GJR: me too
14:06:57 [alessio]
me too
14:07:12 [oedipus]
RM: still looking for IRI def in XSD 1.1
14:07:44 [oedipus]
RM: (reads from XSD 1.1)
14:07:54 [oedipus]
RM: saying can do with IRIs and URIs
14:08:32 [Roland]
14:09:05 [oedipus]
RM: talking of lexical mapping in section
14:09:19 [oedipus]
RM: doesn't sound as if there is an IRI type as they suggested
14:09:33 [oedipus]
SM: says "mapping is identity mapping" which to me means no transform
14:09:40 [oedipus]
RM: worth reviewing to see if analagous
14:10:02 [oedipus]
SM: my suggestion is have someone from XML Schema WG suggest what they want so we can integrate it
14:10:24 [oedipus]
RM: commenter in both TAG and Schema WG
14:11:05 [oedipus]
proposed RESOLUTION: Rules for error reporting and/or recovery should be provided in the
14:11:05 [oedipus]
specification for the host language.
14:11:33 [oedipus]
SM: have tto reply to fallacious assumption - XML Schema implementation is what is wrong
14:12:03 [oedipus]
SM: asked SMcQueen to help write XSD -- pushed to RDFa and CURIEs already
14:13:01 [oedipus]
RESOLVED: accept "Rules for error reporting and/or recovery should be provided in the specification for the host language.
14:13:09 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:13:09 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
14:13:30 [oedipus]
SM: does mean should modify RDFa syntax -- will do before Rec, which is this week
14:13:35 [oedipus]
14:14:06 [oedipus]
Chair: Roland, Steven
14:14:17 [oedipus]
SM: comments agree with: empty string is not a CURIE
14:14:25 [oedipus]
s/SM: comments/SP: comments
14:14:29 [oedipus]
SP: that is true
14:14:33 [oedipus]
GJR: agreed
14:14:37 [oedipus]
RM: agree
14:14:41 [oedipus]
SM: over the moon
14:14:45 [alessio]
14:15:41 [oedipus]
SM: talked to RalphZ to go to CR before publication moritorium, so he said no -- can't push before TPAC; suggest i complete work, resolve to transition to CR at face2face and then request
14:15:47 [oedipus]
RM: sounds good to me -- same with Role
14:15:50 [oedipus]
SM: and Access
14:15:54 [Steven]
14:16:01 [oedipus]
SM: all 3 at once makes story stronger
14:16:29 [oedipus]
RM: Shane will have ready for approval at TPAC
14:16:37 [oedipus]
SM: yes - in 2 weeks time
14:16:46 [oedipus]
14:17:00 [oedipus]
SP: going to REC today (will be dated today)
14:17:19 [oedipus]
SP: put errata doc up today; sent draft announcement to W3C comm team; hoping announcement will go out today
14:17:30 [oedipus]
SP: definitely going to be out before TPAC, which is very good
14:17:38 [oedipus]
SM: good to finish another deliverable
14:17:55 [oedipus]
SP: thank you shane for producing latest version -- now in hands of comm team
14:18:10 [oedipus]
RM: address Access Module comments?
14:18:16 [oedipus]
TOPIC: Access Module
14:18:30 [oedipus]
RM: comments logged at:
14:19:18 [Steven]
14:19:25 [alessio]
14:20:24 [oedipus]
SP: background: Forms has "repeat" construct that can contain things with IDs -- when repeat gets expanded, you end up with things in shadow tree that are all names with same ID - that is basis of worry -- using access with element that has been duplicated within the tree one is actually accessing
14:20:46 [oedipus]
SP: some short-cuts to take to element with particular ID via access, and problem is, there are more than one of them
14:21:10 [oedipus]
RM: XForms should use target role rather than targetid for access -- exception condition
14:21:18 [oedipus]
RM: use Role as recommended approach?
14:21:21 [oedipus]
SP: not sure
14:21:31 [oedipus]
RM: not error, but pattern for what they need to do
14:21:35 [oedipus]
GJR: plus 1 to RM
14:21:57 [oedipus]
SP: either say what should happen or what happens in markup languages that use this feature should be governed by rules of host language
14:22:18 [oedipus]
SM: duplicate IDs been rejected
14:22:37 [oedipus]
SP: that was in markup - nothing says can't have markup language that has ID on something that gets expanded into DOM tree
14:23:10 [oedipus]
RM: problem with idea that there is no synchronization between the 2 -- 1 to 1 relationship between IDs in DOM and IDs in document; if serialize DOM, expect to get them all out
14:23:24 [oedipus]
RM: multiple items with identical ID values not allowed
14:24:05 [oedipus]
SP: XForms doesn't allow either; need to decide if need to include reference to this in access spec, of say to Forms people, it is a huge problem, but is yours, and pertains to use of other namespaces in your namespace
14:24:22 [oedipus]
RM: suggest create role for this purpose
14:24:47 [oedipus]
SM: in terms of best practice, role created to avoid multiple identical IDs
14:25:05 [oedipus]
SM: module, not ML; when combine XForms+Role, there is "role"
14:25:26 [oedipus]
SP: XHTML+Access+Role+XForms1.0
14:25:35 [oedipus]
RM: for Forms WG to deal with situation
14:26:04 [oedipus]
SP: can point out that interaction between CSS and XForms has to deal with same problem, so re-use that mechanism for this issue
14:26:21 [oedipus]
RM: thought repeaters didn't work with 1.0
14:26:30 [oedipus]
SP: original version didn't convert case
14:27:29 [oedipus]
SM: how would an Access implementation deal/cope with a changing list of targets in its list of potential targets; way access works is to declare there is an access element, associated with this key and these targets
14:27:36 [oedipus]
SP: targets that stop being relevant
14:27:42 [oedipus]
SM: or change position
14:28:24 [oedipus]
SM: DOM changes - if capture list of targets, what happens when list changes - if does change, does it reset to begining -- what happens? we say cycle through list, don't address what to do if list changes
14:28:45 [oedipus]
RM: have to work on processing model - have to ensure node one assumes is current exists, if does, start point, if gone, restart
14:29:01 [oedipus]
SM: do specify what happens, sort of -- re-evaluate list everytime
14:29:14 [oedipus]
RM: if current node is gone, have to go back to start of list
14:29:22 [oedipus]
SP: start or first place where was
14:29:27 [oedipus]
RM: a lot could change
14:29:44 [oedipus]
SM: about focus - something always has focus - next item in document order
14:29:51 [oedipus]
RM: what if change by diff mechanism
14:30:04 [oedipus]
SM: doesn't matter if item in list of targets has focus or not in terms of processing model
14:30:38 [oedipus]
RM: need to state: do not cater for mulitple IDs in our spec; for any language that does, that language will have to define how to deal with situation
14:30:43 [oedipus]
GJR: plus 1
14:31:23 [oedipus]
SP: dynamic content generation -- agree need to deal with issue, but particular case is something we don't intend to deal with
14:31:47 [alessio]
14:31:48 [oedipus]
RM: if inserted new piece of content, can re-evaluate and include;
14:32:02 [oedipus]
SM: belive covered in section 3.1.4
14:32:02 [ShaneM]
14:32:40 [oedipus]
"For the sake of determining navigation order, elements in the document that match the values in the targetid or targetrole attributes are called matching elements, and all elements that match the same value are members of an element group. Note: since the id of an element must be unique within a valid XML document, in such documents, each element group based on targetid values consist of no more than one matching element."
14:33:04 [oedipus]
SM: answer in last sentence of section: "The location of the next matching element MUST be determined each time the access element is triggered, since it is possible that between events the contents of the document will have changed."
14:33:26 [oedipus]
RM: is this version of draft commented upon?
14:33:40 [oedipus]
14:34:01 [oedipus]
GJR: commented on one in TR space which doesn't have what ED has
14:34:09 [oedipus]
SM: point them to Editor's Draft
14:34:16 [oedipus]
RM: anyone in position to send reply?
14:34:25 [oedipus]
SM: i can do it
14:35:06 [oedipus]
ACTION: Shane - reply to Forms comments, point to latest Editor's Draft to ascertain if have alleviated their concerns
14:35:06 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-4 - - reply to Forms comments, point to latest Editor's Draft to ascertain if have alleviated their concerns [on Shane McCarron - due 2008-10-15].
14:35:12 [oedipus]
RM: pretty late for a comment
14:35:26 [oedipus]
SM: "not alone in concern about this issue, so it has already been addressed"
14:35:38 [oedipus]
SP: special case of generating elements in repeat won't call out
14:39:33 [Steven]
zakim, agenda?
14:39:33 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
14:39:34 [Zakim]
1. M12N Transition [from Steven]
14:39:35 [oedipus]
RM: anything else for access?
14:39:36 [Zakim]
2. CURIE comments [from Steven]
14:39:37 [Zakim]
3. XForms access comments [from Steven]
14:39:38 [Zakim]
4. TPAC FtF Agenda [from Steven]
14:39:43 [Steven]
zakim, close agendum 1
14:39:43 [Zakim]
agendum 1, M12N Transition, closed
14:39:44 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:39:45 [Zakim]
2. CURIE comments [from Steven]
14:39:52 [oedipus]
GJR: still trying to get feedback on what to do for notification when keybindings change
14:40:02 [Steven]
zakim, close agendum 2
14:40:02 [Zakim]
agendum 2, CURIE comments, closed
14:40:03 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:40:04 [Zakim]
3. XForms access comments [from Steven]
14:40:15 [Steven]
zakim, close agendum 3
14:40:15 [Zakim]
agendum 3, XForms access comments, closed
14:40:16 [Zakim]
I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
14:40:17 [Zakim]
4. TPAC FtF Agenda [from Steven]
14:40:17 [oedipus]
SM: want to ensure replied to all LC comments before TPAC
14:40:37 [oedipus]
TOPIC: TPAC f2f Agenda
14:40:44 [oedipus]
RM: please send suggestions for agenda to list
14:40:53 [oedipus]
RM: created TPAC page on XHTML2 WG wiki
14:41:05 [oedipus]
RM: will shape agenda next week
14:41:24 [oedipus]
SP: next week Forms group having virtual F2F next week
14:41:32 [oedipus]
SP: wednesday and thursday next week
14:42:04 [oedipus]
SP: starts at 3 and ends at midnight my time, will try to attend as long as possible
14:42:10 [oedipus]
TOPIC: Vocab Document
14:42:14 [oedipus]
RM: where is RDFa?
14:42:36 [oedipus]
SM: SP stripped all of RDFa out of document when updated
14:42:49 [oedipus]
SP: Amaya must have done that or were we editing simultaneously
14:42:55 [oedipus]
SM: no
14:43:07 [oedipus]
SP: apologies -- will dig out old version from CVS
14:43:12 [oedipus]
SM: reapply changes
14:43:29 [oedipus]
SM: i have RDF changes would like to make changes -- will email to SP
14:44:12 [oedipus]
SM: confirm days meeting at TPAC?
14:44:22 [oedipus]
RM: 23 and 24 october 2008
14:44:35 [oedipus]
RM: registered as observer at XForms
14:45:31 [oedipus]
GJR: suggest talk with RWAB XG folks
14:45:33 [oedipus]
14:45:41 [Zakim]
14:45:42 [Zakim]
14:45:43 [Zakim]
14:45:43 [Zakim]
14:45:43 [Zakim]
14:45:45 [Zakim]
IA_XHTML2()9:45AM has ended
14:45:46 [Zakim]
Attendees were McCarron, Steven, Alessio, Gregory_Rosmaita
14:45:59 [oedipus]
present+ Roland_Merrick
14:46:05 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:46:05 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
14:46:33 [oedipus]
Agenda Planning via Tracker:
14:46:44 [oedipus]
Recent Tracker Activity:
14:47:05 [oedipus]
add new "products" using:
14:47:10 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:47:10 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
14:48:33 [oedipus]
Tracker "Home":
14:48:38 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:48:38 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
14:48:44 [oedipus]
zakim, please part
14:48:44 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #xhtml
14:49:52 [oedipus]
rrsagent, please part
14:49:52 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item saved in :
14:49:52 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Shane - reply to Forms comments, point to latest Editor's Draft to ascertain if have alleviated their concerns [1]
14:49:52 [RRSAgent]
recorded in