14:52:22 RRSAgent has joined #swd 14:52:23 logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/10/07-swd-irc 14:52:26 rrsagent, bookmark 14:52:26 See http://www.w3.org/2008/10/07-swd-irc#T14-52-26 14:52:31 zakim, this will be swd 14:52:31 ok, TomB; I see SW_SWD()11:00AM scheduled to start in 8 minutes 14:52:36 Meeting: SWD WG 14:52:40 Chair: Tom 14:52:57 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2008Oct/0099.html 14:53:05 Previous: http://www.w3.org/2008/09/30-swd-minutes.html 14:53:13 Regrets: Antoine, JonP, Quentin, Daniel 14:53:31 rrsagent, please make record public 14:54:02 SW_SWD()11:00AM has now started 14:54:09 +??P8 14:54:15 zakim, ??P8 is me 14:54:15 +TomB; got it 14:58:25 edsu has joined #swd 14:58:54 +[LC] 14:59:01 zakim, LC is edsu 14:59:02 +edsu; got it 14:59:26 Ralph has joined #swd 14:59:36 +Martin 14:59:41 Zakim, Martin is me 14:59:41 +berrueta; got it 14:59:58 +Ralph 15:00:46 Guus has joined #swd 15:01:56 marghe has joined #swd 15:02:32 +??P40 15:02:34 aliman has joined #swd 15:02:48 benadida has joined #swd 15:02:54 zakim, ??p40 is Margherita 15:02:54 +Margherita; got it 15:03:47 +Ben_Adida 15:03:57 Scribe: EdSu 15:04:19 +??P57 15:04:45 +Alistair 15:05:34 +Guus_Schreiber 15:06:00 seanb has joined #swd 15:06:18 Topic: Admin 15:06:40 RESOLVED to accept minutes from Sep-30 telecon http://www.w3.org/2008/09/30-swd-minutes.html 15:07:06 RESOLVED: to accept minutes from Sep-30 telecon http://www.w3.org/2008/09/30-swd-minutes.html 15:07:22 TomB: Guus will chair next weeks meeting 15:07:37 +??P66 15:07:42 Topic: RDFa 15:07:43 zakim, ?P66 is me 15:07:43 sorry, seanb, I do not recognize a party named '?P66' 15:07:52 zakim, ??P66 is me 15:07:53 +seanb; got it 15:07:54 -> http://www.w3.org/2008/10/02-rdfa-minutes.html record of 2-Oct RDFa TF telecon 15:08:10 ACTION: All to remind respective AC Reps to respond to RDFa Proposed Rec Call for Review [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/30-swd-minutes.html#action01] 15:08:15 --done 15:08:28 ACTION: Ben review RDFa Use Cases and propose transition to Group Note [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/30-swd-minutes.html#action02] 15:08:31 --continues 15:08:48 draft --> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-rdfa-syntax-20081004/ 15:08:56 benadida: wanted to ask about moving to REC 15:09:22 ... we've received comments, two required no change to the draft (typos, clarifications) 15:09:59 ... since these are only typos there's no need for additional review, right Ralph? 15:10:06 Ralph: we can make editorial changes 15:11:04 TomB: is there a formal requirement to also record the editorial changes? 15:11:14 Guus: yes in the changes section 15:11:29 benadida: yes shane has done this, and included a diff 15:12:21 Ralph: i've submitted the request for transition, and we'll see when the necessary parties are available to discuss 15:12:57 ... the last deadline for requesting publication is before next monday, before the the tpac meeting 15:13:00 +??P10 15:13:07 Guus: would be nice to publish the primer as a note at the same time 15:13:15 s/before next/next 15:13:28 JeremyCarroll has joined #swd 15:13:57 Zakim, ??P10 is me 15:13:57 +JeremyCarroll; got it 15:13:58 benadida: we haven't looked at the use cases in a while, and i wouldn't want to produce inconsistency ... but the primer will be ready for submission by the end of the week ... minor editorial changes 15:14:28 Ralph: that sounds like you are making a proposal that the group transition the Primer to a WG Note 15:14:46 Zakim, unmute me 15:14:46 JeremyCarroll should no longer be muted 15:14:53 q+ 15:15:05 benadida: i didn't realize there was a transition to note, but if so yes 15:15:42 Guus: what is the most likely date for transition to REC? 15:15:55 Ralph: i would expect a decision at the end of this week 15:16:04 Guus: can we control the day of announcement? 15:16:22 Ralph: yes, but to meet next weeks publishing moratorium we need to do it before noon on monday 15:16:45 Zakim, unmute me 15:16:45 JeremyCarroll should no longer be muted 15:18:04 JeremyCarroll: a working draft is a work in progress, unfinished -- a working group note is a statement that the document is adequate 15:18:33 benadida: it's sufficiently completed that it could transition to Note (the Primer) 15:19:01 Guus: if there are editorial changes nobody is going to object 15:19:47 TomB: are we saying we need to delay? 15:20:12 benadida: i think that most people who read the press release won't notice ... we can transition Primer later 15:20:25 Ralph: what's your best guess about the changes to the Primer? 15:20:48 benadida: i think that the liklihood of the primer getting a couple new paragraphs is about 70% 15:20:55 Jeremy: on RDFa call belief was that there was enough non-W3C material to play this role 15:21:09 ... it's purpose is to get people interested and curious, will do a couple well focused paragraphs, no more than that 15:21:53 I suggest we formally approve Primer for WG Note now, subject to confirmation next week 15:21:58 TomB: should we formulate a proposal to transition the syntax document to REC? leaving the Primer as a working draft? 15:22:43 ... so can we approve the Primer working draft for note now? 15:22:44 +1 for Jeremy's proposal 15:23:34 Ralph: i'm comfortable with the proposal to transition the primer to note now 15:25:15 PROPOSED: the syntax editors use their judgement in correcting typos in preparation of recommendation version of RDFa Syntax 15:25:33 q+ 15:25:34 +1 15:25:39 Zakim, unmute me 15:25:39 JeremyCarroll should no longer be muted 15:26:45 JeremyCarroll: what about the comment yesterday, regarding the colon ... looks like the sort of thing that could cause implementation difficulties 15:27:16 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Oct/0075.html "RDFa review ... too late, but maybe still helpful for the group" [Axel Polleres 2008-10-06] 15:27:33 JeremyCarroll: correcting an alignment between some english text and xml schema definitions ... 15:27:43 TomB: benadida you can take that into account? 15:27:51 benadida: sure, will get mark and shane to take a look 15:27:53 +1 15:28:06 RESOLVED: the syntax editors use their judgement in correcting typos in preparation of recommendation version of RDFa Syntax 15:28:56 PROPOSE that RDFa Primer in its last WD state, with some minor editorial edits at editors' discretion, be transitioned to Note. 15:29:05 PROPOSED: that the RDFa Primer, with some minor editorial changes at editors discretion be published as Working Group Note 15:29:23 +1 15:29:26 RESOLVED: that the RDFa Primer, with some minor editorial changes at editors discretion be published as Working Group Note 15:29:29 +1 15:29:43 TomB: so where are use cases? 15:30:07 benadida: i wouldn't ask for this sort of discretion on the use cases ... no decision at this time 15:30:26 TomB: great progress here 15:30:32 Topic: Recipes 15:30:38 ACTION: Ralph/Diego to work on Wordnet implementation [of Recipes implementations] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action20] 15:30:42 --continues 15:31:11 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2008Oct/0067.html "Re: [Recipes] Open issues in Recipes" [Diego 2008-10-04] 15:31:32 TomB: there are some open and raised issues that Diego wrote about: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2008Oct/0067.html 15:31:50 berrueta: except for 3 or 4 of the issues we can close without too much discussion 15:33:15 berrueta: i think we can close issue-16 through issue-30 15:33:29 TomB: can we give someone an action to record this in tracker? 15:33:30 s/issue-30/issue-23 15:34:05 PROPOSED: resolved issue-16 through issue-23 and issue-58 are closed as per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2008Oct/0067.html 15:34:57 Ralph: are you certain Carl's comments in ISSUE-18 have been resolved? 15:35:01 berrueta: yes 15:35:15 RESOLVED: resolved issue-16 through issue-23 and issue-58 are closed as per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2008Oct/0067.html 15:35:59 ACTION: diego to close recipe issues issue-16 through issue-23 and issue-58 citing email 15:36:10 Topic: RDFa Metadata Note 15:36:33 http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/AddingRDFaToTR?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=tr-metadata-20081002.html 15:36:41 ACTION: Diego to update "Minimum RDFa metadata set for WG deliverables" draft in the wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/30-swd-minutes.html#action04] 15:36:45 --done 15:36:58 TomB: is it ready to be reviewed? 15:37:14 berrueta: i think before a formal review, we may want to discuss some of the points in a telecon 15:37:26 TomB: lets add it to an upcoming telecon, and move on for today 15:37:30 berrueta: ok 15:37:36 Topic: SKOS 15:38:13 seanb: didn't we send email asking for feedback a while ago? 15:38:20 ... didn't alistair do that? 15:38:43 ACTION: SKOS Reference editors to send mail asking for feedback from users [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/02-swd-minutes.html#action06] 15:38:46 --done 15:39:06 ACTION: Alistair enter Last Call issues from Erik Hennum's 28 June mail [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/30-swd-minutes.html#action06] 15:39:09 --done 15:39:36 http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_name=f032cc060810061047w443e49b8qeedace3b6d009adc%40mail.gmail.com&forum_name=dbpedia-discussion 15:39:47 ACTION: Ed to ask dbpedia to send a message in support of SKOS [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/30-swd-minutes.html#action07] 15:39:50 --done 15:40:15 TomB: that leaves us with the long list of issues, many of which we can just go down the list 15:40:47 seanb: i think a lot of these issues alistair and i can deal with, there are a couple that would merit some discussion to get people's input first 15:41:09 TomB: i thought we could quickly go through the easy ones 15:41:20 aliman: maybe we could focus on the trickier ones 15:41:26 [note that the latest version of the RDFa-in-TR editor's draft is http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/AddingRDFaToTR?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=tr-metadata-20081002.html ] 15:41:26 TomB: sure, where would you like to start 15:41:49 seanb: issue-175 and issue-153 to do w/ the skos namespace 15:42:00 ISSUE-153 http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/153 15:42:10 ISSUE-175 http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/175 15:42:13 GuusS has joined #swd 15:42:18 q+ 15:42:28 Zakim, unmute me 15:42:28 JeremyCarroll should no longer be muted 15:42:33 seanb: tbl indicated he was not in favor of changing the namespace, and jeremy also indicated that he would've been opposed to changing the namespace 15:43:15 ack GuusS 15:43:28 JeremyCarroll: implementors using the namespace before REC do so at their own risk, so generally i would be against changing namespaces, whatever we do will leave someone unhappy, tbl's comment has more weight than mine, and if he wants to stick with the old one, lets stay with the old one 15:43:43 seanb: also a comment from simon about maintaining the old namespace 15:44:00 ... there is the caveat that we are changing the semantics 15:44:37 GuusS: given the history of skos i don't agree w/ jeremy's point ... until a few years ago it wasn't clear this was going to be a REC track effort 15:44:55 [I agree with Guus' point about the history of SKOS and the 2005 namespace] 15:45:01 ... i have changed my opinion, after reading tim and simon's comments ... from pragmatic reasons it's more important to keep the namespace 15:45:19 I'm trying to find simon's mail... 15:45:20 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2008Oct/0036.html -> simon's comments 15:45:40 seanb: i would be in favor of keeping the same namespace 15:45:46 aliman: i'm leaning in the same direction 15:45:54 "If you change the semantics at 15:45:54 any point, my tools still work and always give the right answer 15:45:54 according the published spec, it's up to the user to be aware of what 15:45:54 the SKOS semantics entail. So for this reason I would be in favor of 15:45:54 keeping the old namespaces and just changing the semantics. 15:45:55 " 15:45:59 -- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2008Oct/0036.html 15:46:04 TomB: do i correctly understand that retain skos:broader and change the semantics 15:46:30 q+ to ask about deprecated features 15:46:35 q- 15:46:42 q- 15:46:48 scribenick: ralph 15:46:59 Ed: is there any concern about existing uses of skos:subject, etc? 15:47:11 ... that these will no longer resolve to anything? 15:47:25 Guus: it's not a real problem; people could still use it 15:47:40 ... in OWL the decision was that people could use old terms and the tool should give a warning 15:47:46 Sean: so no explicit deprecation? 15:47:54 Guus: I prefer not to explicitly deprecate the old terms 15:48:12 Sean: that's my position as well; don't deprecate 15:48:30 Guus: could have a namespace change history in the documentation 15:48:45 scribenick: edsu 15:49:07 GuusS: for historic reasons it would be nice to note when things changed 15:50:07 TomB: did we ever take a decision to stop resolving the old documentation ... 15:50:56 Ralph: would you object to using the rdfs:description property to say in effect, this has been deprecated ... keep it in the namespace document, was in 2005 but not in standard SKOS? 15:52:01 TomB: we're talking about adding a short section to the Reference ... adding a new section and coming up with a policy for dealing w/ the deprecated terms feels like a fairly substantial change 15:52:25 GuusS: i think an appendix wouldn't be a major change 15:52:48 Ralph: i could see some concerns about removing things from a namespace document, but I don't know, we could argue that's part of the same question 15:53:13 TomB: could one of the editors write up this appendix? 15:53:20 seanb: i can do that 15:53:21 Jeremy: reviewers have been asked specifically about ns change, if no one spoke up supporting it, thati indicates a lack of concern about old properties 15:53:31 Ralph: have we resolved to keep the old namespace? 15:53:54 +1 for Jeremy's point 15:54:29 GuusS: perhaps the editors could propose the resolution? 15:54:48 seanb: as a mechanism for this, could we propose this as a draft response to the issue? 15:55:25 GuusS: take the issues you think are significant, and address them together, and propose a solution 15:55:40 -> http://www.w3.org/2008/05/06-swd-minutes.html#skosnamespace 6-May F2F discussion of the namespace 15:56:22 ACTION: sean to propose resolutions to outstanding issues, bundling editorial issues where necessary 15:56:33 TomB: are there any other issues we can pick off? 15:56:47 seanb: there was ISSUE-135 which relates to labeling properties 15:57:11 -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/135 15:57:29 (yes please) 15:57:30 seanb: implementors are keen to have this relationship with rdfs:label 15:58:01 ... a while ago i looked through the mailing list and couldn't find a whole lot, found one frmo tbl about tabulator, but was wondering if we could get something clearer from implementors 15:58:06 I'll ask Holger 15:58:13 GuusS: you could a message from me or one of my people 15:58:24 and me 15:58:43 ACTION: Guus to give concrete implementation examples of the use of rdfs:label w/ SKOS 15:58:57 s/Guus/Guus and Jeremy/ 15:59:06 (thanks) 15:59:15 GuusS: there are good reasons for keeping it 15:59:46 aliman: this is also higlighted in his analysis ... don't know if this is a problem that will go away with owl2 15:59:57 TomB: we've reached the top of the hour 16:00:13 GuusS: sean, alistair i'll be around for another 10 minutes to discuss other issues 16:00:25 zakim, list attendees 16:00:25 As of this point the attendees have been TomB, edsu, berrueta, Ralph, Margherita, Ben_Adida, aliman, Guus_Schreiber, seanb, JeremyCarroll 16:00:34 -JeremyCarroll 16:00:39 -Ben_Adida 16:00:40 -Margherita 16:00:46 -berrueta 16:00:46 marghe has left #swd 16:01:12 [adjourned] 16:01:22 -Ralph 16:02:09 http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/157 16:02:19 I'm logging. I don't understand 'please draft minute', Ralph. Try /msg RRSAgent help 16:02:20 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/07-swd-minutes.html Ralph 16:04:28 Ralph++ 16:10:31 http://dublincore.org/documents/dcq-rdf-xml/ 16:16:10 http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-rdf-syntax/#rdfvalue 16:16:40 "RDF provides a predefined rdf:value property to describe the main value (if there is one) of a structured value." 16:16:58 aliman, seanb i forgot to mention that michael panzer at OCLC had some comments that i think may have slipped through your sieve? http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2008Oct/0061.html 16:19:54 q+ to point out the discussion of rdf:value convention in the 2004 Recommendation RDF Primer 16:20:09 q- 16:23:11 -TomB 16:23:13 -Guus_Schreiber 16:23:13 -edsu 16:23:19 edsu has left #swd 16:23:42 -seanb 16:23:44 SW_SWD()11:00AM has ended 16:23:45 Attendees were TomB, edsu, berrueta, Ralph, Margherita, Ben_Adida, aliman, Guus_Schreiber, seanb, JeremyCarroll 16:24:20 seanb has left #swd 17:34:54 JeremyCarroll has joined #swd 18:22:11 rssagent, bye 18:22:24 rrsagent, bye 18:22:24 I see 10 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/07-swd-actions.rdf : 18:22:24 ACTION: All to remind respective AC Reps to respond to RDFa Proposed Rec Call for Review [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/30-swd-minutes.html#action01] [1] 18:22:24 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/07-swd-irc#T15-08-10 18:22:24 ACTION: Ben review RDFa Use Cases and propose transition to Group Note [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/30-swd-minutes.html#action02] [2] 18:22:24 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/07-swd-irc#T15-08-28 18:22:24 ACTION: Ralph/Diego to work on Wordnet implementation [of Recipes implementations] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action20] [3] 18:22:24 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/07-swd-irc#T15-30-38 18:22:24 ACTION: diego to close recipe issues issue-16 through issue-23 and issue-58 citing email [4] 18:22:24 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/07-swd-irc#T15-35-59 18:22:24 ACTION: Diego to update "Minimum RDFa metadata set for WG deliverables" draft in the wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/30-swd-minutes.html#action04] [5] 18:22:24 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/07-swd-irc#T15-36-41 18:22:24 ACTION: SKOS Reference editors to send mail asking for feedback from users [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/02-swd-minutes.html#action06] [6] 18:22:24 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/07-swd-irc#T15-38-43 18:22:24 ACTION: Alistair enter Last Call issues from Erik Hennum's 28 June mail [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/30-swd-minutes.html#action06] [7] 18:22:24 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/07-swd-irc#T15-39-06 18:22:24 ACTION: Ed to ask dbpedia to send a message in support of SKOS [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/30-swd-minutes.html#action07] [8] 18:22:24 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/07-swd-irc#T15-39-47 18:22:24 ACTION: sean to propose resolutions to outstanding issues, bundling editorial issues where necessary [9] 18:22:24 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/07-swd-irc#T15-56-22 18:22:24 ACTION: Guus to give concrete implementation examples of the use of rdfs:label w/ SKOS [10] 18:22:24 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/10/07-swd-irc#T15-58-43 18:22:34 zakim, bye 18:22:34 Zakim has left #swd