14:58:44 RRSAgent has joined #xproc 14:58:44 logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/10/02-xproc-irc 14:58:46 Meeting: XML Processing Model WG 14:58:46 Date: 2 Oct 2008 14:58:46 Agenda: http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2008/10/02-agenda 14:58:46 Meeting: 127 14:58:48 Chair: Norm 14:58:50 Scribe: Norm 14:58:51 ScribeNick: Norm 14:58:53 Regrets: Henry, Mohamed, Michael 14:59:16 Regrets are wrong 15:01:31 Zakim, this is XML_P 15:01:31 ok, PGrosso; that matches XML_PMWG()11:00AM 15:01:36 thanks, paul 15:01:42 I'll be there in a few minutes. I have to take another short call, less than 10min. Amuse yourself by reading the open issues list in my absence :-) 15:01:50 Zakim, ??P1 is me 15:01:50 +ruilopes; got it 15:01:55 Zakim, what is the code ? 15:01:55 the conference code is 97762 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), MoZ 15:02:55 zakim, please call ht-781 15:02:55 ok, ht; the call is being made 15:02:56 +Ht 15:03:42 +??P41 15:03:43 s/Regrets: Henry, Mohamed, Michael/ 15:03:51 s/Regrets: Henry, Mohamed, Michael// 15:03:58 zakim, ? is Richard 15:03:58 +Richard; got it 15:04:06 richard has joined #xproc 15:04:14 zakim, ? is me 15:04:14 sorry, richard, I do not recognize a party named '?' 15:04:18 zakim, richard is me 15:04:18 +richard; got it 15:04:29 Agenda: http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2008/09/25-minutes.html 15:04:43 Norm has changed the topic to: XProc WG meets today, http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2008/10/02-agenda 15:04:47 Agenda: http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2008/10/02-agenda.html 15:05:05 zakim, who is on the call? 15:05:06 On the phone I see ruilopes, PGrosso, Ht, richard 15:05:58 AndrewF has joined #xproc 15:06:01 ok. i'm peddling as fast as I can 15:06:20 Next meeting: 9 October, no regrets noted 15:06:36 +Andrew 15:06:56 Minutes accepted as posted 15:08:00 Topic: Namespace binding examples 15:08:00 http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/docs/langspec.html#opt-param-bindings 15:08:48 Mohamed, are you joining us? 15:08:51 MoZ? 15:09:04 + +1.646.378.aaaa 15:09:09 Zakim, who's on the phone? 15:09:09 On the phone I see ruilopes, PGrosso, Ht, richard, Andrew, +1.646.378.aaaa 15:09:22 Present: Rui, Paul, Henry, Richard, Andrew, Norm 15:09:25 Zakim, aaaa is norm 15:09:25 +norm; got it 15:09:45 Zakim, what is the code ? 15:09:45 the conference code is 97762 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), MoZ 15:10:31 + +95247aabb 15:10:41 Zakim, aabb is MoZ 15:10:41 Present: Rui, Paul, Henry, Richard, Andrew, Norm, Mohamed 15:10:44 +MoZ; got it 15:11:05 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-processing-model-wg/2008Sep/0024.html 15:12:04 Henry: I read it again and while it was complex, that complexity stems from the complexity of the feature, I think. 15:12:14 ...I was left feeling that I wish we didn't have to do this. 15:12:16 ScribeNick: Norm 15:12:24 Norm: But we do... 15:13:20 Norm: if anyone has any specific suggestions, I'd be happy to try, but I've done all I can. 15:13:47 Mohamed: I think the examples are fine; I think it could be simpler, but mostly I just don't want users to be confused. 15:14:44 Norm: I think most users will never need this, and hopefully by the time they do, there will be nice tutorials somewhere. 15:15:09 Norm: Proposal: we're done, the revised prose is fine. 15:15:12 Accepted. 15:15:35 Topic: 008 15:16:05 Norm: This was a comment RELAX NG step. Henry pushed a little bit about APIs. And I went off and took a closer look. 15:18:01 Norm summarizes his email. 15:18:13 Norm: Err, dtd-id-idref-errors should be dtd-id-idref-warnings 15:18:16 Henry: Works for me. 15:18:34 Proposal: Accept Norm's suggestions, close the issue. 15:18:43 Accepted. 15:18:58 Topic: 032 15:19:57 Norm summarizes the thread. 15:20:12 Proposal is in: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xml-processing-model-comments/2008Sep/0044.html 15:20:47 Henry: I don't understand the phase thing, but I'm not going to argue about it. 15:21:03 Proposal: Accept Norm's suggestions and close the issue. 15:21:13 Accepted. 15:22:35 Topic: 033 15:23:46 Norm: The proposal is to standardize SVRL as the output. 15:24:08 Henry: I have no problem saying that implementations SHOULD use SVRL[reference] for this purpose. 15:25:23 Henry: The substantive issue of another output port for positive reports probably does need a new port. 15:26:43 Norm: We already have a secondary port, can't we just put postive reports there? 15:27:13 Henry: So it's impl defined what goes on that port. The only thing that's for sure is that if assert-valid is true then errors will go there if there are errors. 15:28:10 Proposal: All reports (error or otherwise) go on the report port. We'll say that the output SHOULD be in SVRL. 15:28:28 Accepted. 15:28:53 Topic: 034 15:30:17 Norm: This amounts to a proposal for a secondary port on the validation steps on which the answer 'true' or 'false' appears depending on whether or not the validation was successful. 15:31:44 Henry: I got a private reply from James. 15:32:26 Henry: He agrees that try/catch can be used, but thinks it would be more consistent if the result was available directly. 15:33:15 Henry: Part of the problem is that in my pipeline, I support the PSVI and I have an extension function that makes it trivial to get this answer. 15:33:37 ...We could put the validity/validation attempted results on the document in an XProc namespace. 15:33:51 Mohamed: Streaming is also a problem. 15:35:47 Some discussion of encoding of PSVI items... 15:36:48 Richard: It's possible that you might want to determine the validity w/o doing anything with the validated result. 15:37:55 Richard: I think the argument you quoted about the output of the step reflects a different idea about what validation means. If you're just asking the question, then it is, but if you're expecting downstream steps to use the result, then it isn't. 15:38:34 Norm: Neither answer seems compelling to me. 15:39:07 Henry: What's someone going to do with this result? Presumably they're going to put a choose in and write to subpipelines anyway... 15:39:14 Richard: Maybe not, maybe the answer is just true/false 15:39:41 Norm: But that's not terribly useful by itself. 15:40:02 Mohamed: I don't think it's worth having this answer. It would make streaming imposible, so try/catch wouldn't be too much of a burden. 15:40:18 ...You just write your own wrapper pipeline to get the result. 15:40:34 ...Even in the proposal, there's the idea that you might want the error, etc. So that should be done in a try/catch. 15:40:36 Henry: Yeah, I agree. 15:40:58 ...This just encourages too many different ways to write the same thing. 15:41:33 Norm: We earlier set "can you do it yourself" as a criteria for new steps, that can apply here. 15:42:02 Mohamed: Right. This would change all the validate steps which is too big a change from my perspective. 15:42:19 Propsal: Reject this request, you can get the result yourself with existing features of XProc 15:42:34 Accepted 15:42:44 s/Propsal/Proposal/ 15:43:28 Topic: Where are we? 15:43:44 Norm: Basically finished! The XSL/Query comment needs more work, but there's nothing major in it. 15:44:05 ... The question of XML encryption/decryption/c14n, etc. is something we'll discuss with the XML Security WG next week. 15:44:09 PGrosso has joined #xproc 15:45:34 Norm describes his feelings about security which amount to putting the new steps in a separate document. 15:45:45 Henry: I've supported that approach already. 15:46:21 Mohamed: I think I agree. My proposal a few months ago was to put it all in a parameter port and try to standardize with a clear proposal. It ends up being the same to have it a separate note or REC-track document. 15:47:06 Mohamed: On C14N, we've already discussed this and said it was a user-defined option on serialization. 15:47:38 Norm: Good point! Thank you, Mohamed. 15:47:54 Topic: Test suite 15:50:25 Norm outlines that we'll get to CR just after the f2f. But we need tests to get out. 15:50:31 Mohamed: How will we split up the work? 15:50:42 Norm: Submit tests and I'll contrive to get some reports about what the coverage is. 15:51:28 Norm: If people submit tests, I'll write some reports on analytics. 15:51:33 Mohamed: Ok, I'll write some tests. 15:52:06 Henry: If I have an idle day, I'll look at what would be required to convert my private tests into our format. 15:52:51 ACTION: Norm to update teh RELAX NG grammer for the test suite vocabulary 15:52:56 Topic: Any other business? 15:53:02 None heard. 15:53:05 Adjourned. 15:53:09 -norm 15:53:11 -ruilopes 15:53:11 -richard 15:53:13 -MoZ 15:53:13 -Andrew 15:53:14 -Ht 15:53:14 -PGrosso 15:53:15 XML_PMWG()11:00AM has ended 15:53:16 Attendees were PGrosso, ruilopes, Ht, richard, Andrew, +1.646.378.aaaa, norm, +95247aabb, MoZ 15:53:17 RRSAgent, set logs world-visible 15:53:21 RRSAgent, draft minutes 15:53:21 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/02-xproc-minutes.html Norm 15:53:24 PGrosso has left #xproc 15:53:47 MoZ has joined #xproc 16:51:27 Norm has joined #xproc 17:32:50 Zakim has left #xproc