12:23:18 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
12:23:18 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/10/02-wai-wcag-irc
12:23:28 <MichaelC_WCAG> rrsagent, make log world
12:23:34 <MichaelC_WCAG> rrsagent, do not start a new log
12:23:35 <MichaelC_WCAG> meeting: WCAG Face to Face Day 2
12:23:37 <MichaelC_WCAG> chair: Gregg Vanderheiden
12:24:09 <MichaelC_WCAG> agenda: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/2008/10/ftf-meeting#Thursday
12:24:24 <MichaelC_WCAG> scribeOptions: -scribeOnly -final -implicitContinuations
12:28:58 <greggvanderheiden> greggvanderheiden has joined #wai-wcag
12:32:12 <Ben> Ben has joined #wai-wcag
12:40:15 <awk> awk has joined #wai-wcag
12:44:48 <Loretta> Loretta has joined #WAI-WCAG
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12:45:53 <David_MacDonald> David_MacDonald has joined #wai-wcag
12:45:57 <Loretta> http://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG20/glance
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12:53:23 <Loretta> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/20080926f2fprep/results#xq9
13:08:10 <Loretta> sequence of characters that can be programmatically determined, where the sequence is expressing something in human language
13:16:52 <Katie> Katie has joined #wai-wcag
13:22:08 <Loretta> language that is spoken, written or signed (through visual or tactile means) to communicate with humans
13:30:46 <greggvanderheiden> http://trace.wisc.edu/wcag_wiki/index.php?title=Accessibility_Supported_Technology
13:49:04 <Ben> Technologies can only be relied upon to conform to WCAG 2.0 if they are used in a way that is "accessibility supported."
13:59:37 <Ben> scribe: Ben
14:00:21 <Ben> Topic: Accessibility Supported Technology (Guidelines Language)
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14:50:09 <awk> test
14:51:03 <awk> The presence of a conforming alternative version does not effect the need to ensure compliance with each of the following for all content on the page, including content that is not relied on.
15:05:16 <Ben> 2nd sentence of conformance intro:
15:05:44 <Ben> Finally, it describes what it means for to be accessibility-supported, since only accessibility-supported uses of technologies can be relied upon for conformance.
17:00:42 <Sofia> Sofia has joined #wai-wcag
18:04:25 <Ben> RESOLUTION: Accept changes related to accessibility-supported uses of technologies as amended. http://trace.wisc.edu/wcag_wiki/index.php?title=Accessibility_Supported_Technology#Edits_within_Conformance_requirements
18:10:07 <MichaelC_WCAG> q+
18:11:59 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #wai-wcag
18:12:01 <MichaelC_WCAG> q+
18:13:39 <MichaelC_WCAG> q+ to ask What about technologies for which developer does not cooperate to fully populate uses into the database?
18:13:45 <MichaelC_WCAG> q+ to ask Who examines conflicts in test results? Technology developer? The maintaining entity? A review board of some kind?
18:13:51 <MichaelC_WCAG> q+ to ask Failures that cannot be replicated should be marked as "not replicated", not removed.
18:15:26 <MichaelC_WCAG> q+ to ask If the database is not used, what other mechanisms exist to provide evidence to substantiate claims that uses of a technology are accessibility support?
18:17:09 <Ben> Topic: Accessibility Support
18:17:09 <awk> q+
18:17:15 <awk> q-
18:17:19 <Loretta> q+ filtering on user agent and AT versions
18:17:23 <greggvanderheiden> q+
18:17:33 <Loretta> q+
18:18:24 <Ben> q+
18:18:59 <MichaelC_WCAG> ack me
18:18:59 <Zakim> MichaelC_WCAG, you wanted to ask What about technologies for which developer does not cooperate to fully populate uses into the database? and to ask Who examines conflicts in test
18:19:03 <Zakim> ... results? Technology developer? The maintaining entity? A review board of some kind? and to ask Failures that cannot be replicated should be marked as "not replicated", not
18:19:03 <David_MacDonald> David_MacDonald has joined #wai-wcag
18:19:07 <Zakim> ... removed. and to ask If the database is not used, what other mechanisms exist to provide evidence to substantiate claims that uses of a technology are accessibility support?
18:19:16 <greggvanderheiden> ack lorett
18:24:05 <MichaelC_WCAG> q+ Katie
18:25:47 <MichaelC_WCAG> ack g
18:25:49 <MichaelC_WCAG> ack b
18:25:52 <greggvanderheiden> ack ben
18:25:52 <awk> q+
18:28:01 <greggvanderheiden> ack kat
18:29:20 <greggvanderheiden> q+
18:31:04 <greggvanderheiden> q+ katie
18:31:18 <MichaelC_WCAG> ack a
18:36:29 <awk> q+
18:37:26 <greggvanderheiden> ack  kat
18:37:32 <greggvanderheiden> q+ alex
18:37:47 <greggvanderheiden> ack G
18:37:52 <greggvanderheiden> q+
18:39:54 <Loretta> q+
18:41:10 <Andi> q+
18:42:08 <Loretta> ack awk
18:43:23 <Loretta> ack alex
18:44:19 <MichaelC_WCAG> q+ to say we are still stuck with the CR exit requirement to document support for 2 technologies; but we'll be really smart to go in saying "during implementation it's the uses that matter, and here's a collection of uses that we propose be taken as the documentation for a given technology"
18:45:28 <greggvanderheiden> ack mich
18:45:28 <Zakim> MichaelC_WCAG, you wanted to say we are still stuck with the CR exit requirement to document support for 2 technologies; but we'll be really smart to go in saying "during
18:45:31 <Zakim> ... implementation it's the uses that matter, and here's a collection of uses that we propose be taken as the documentation for a given technology"
18:46:51 <Loretta> ack gr
18:47:43 <David_MacDonald> q+
18:49:41 <MichaelC_WCAG> ack l
18:54:31 <greggvanderheiden> q+ cynthia
18:55:05 <greggvanderheiden> q+ 
18:56:41 <David_MacDonald> q-
18:57:24 <Loretta> ack andi
18:57:26 <MichaelC_WCAG> q+ to say I'm comfortable with database not being "the documentation", but I do think the accessibility support must require that there be replicable substantiation of any claim that a use is accessibility supported
18:57:49 <awk> q+
18:58:55 <greggvanderheiden> ack g
18:59:00 <greggvanderheiden> q+
19:01:37 <MichaelC_WCAG> ack c
19:01:45 <Loretta> q+
19:30:04 <greggvanderheiden> ack m
19:30:04 <Zakim> MichaelC_WCAG, you wanted to say I'm comfortable with database not being "the documentation", but I do think the accessibility support must require that there be replicable
19:30:08 <Zakim> ... substantiation of any claim that a use is accessibility supported
19:30:15 <greggvanderheiden> q+ cynthia
19:33:33 <Loretta> ack awk
19:33:40 <greggvanderheiden> ack a
19:34:45 <Loretta> ack gr
19:38:58 <MichaelC_WCAG> q+ to say we need to demonstrate implementability of the accessibility support concept - we don't have to demonstrate a given implementation of it that is expected to be a long-term solution
19:40:46 <MichaelC_WCAG> q+ to say VPAT information is usually unsubstantiated and sometimes demonstrably false - we need accessibility support to require that the substantiation exist
19:42:53 <greggvanderheiden> q+
19:43:02 <MichaelC_WCAG> ack l
19:47:12 <greggvanderheiden> ack c
19:49:03 <Loretta> q+
19:49:12 <MichaelC_WCAG> q+ to say I can support Cynthia's proposal *as long as the test files, procedures, and results are also published*
19:49:45 <Katie> q+
19:50:00 <David_MacDonald> q+
19:51:54 <MichaelC_WCAG> q+ to say the accessibility support database proposal is much like Consumer Reports and I think is fair use under copyright / trademark law
19:52:30 <MichaelC_WCAG> ack me
19:52:30 <Zakim> MichaelC_WCAG, you wanted to say we need to demonstrate implementability of the accessibility support concept - we don't have to demonstrate a given implementation of it that is
19:52:34 <Zakim> ... expected to be a long-term solution and to say VPAT information is usually unsubstantiated and sometimes demonstrably false - we need accessibility support to require that the
19:52:38 <Zakim> ... substantiation exist and to say I can support Cynthia's proposal *as long as the test files, procedures, and results are also published* and to say the accessibility support
19:52:43 <Zakim> ... database proposal is much like Consumer Reports and I think is fair use under copyright / trademark law
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19:56:37 <Zakim> WAI_WCAG()3:00PM has now started
19:56:44 <Zakim> +??P0
19:56:56 <bengt> zakim, ??P0 is Bengt_Farre
19:56:56 <Zakim> +Bengt_Farre; got it
19:56:59 <MichaelC_WCAG> MichaelC_WCAG has changed the topic to: FtF is finishing queue, will dial into call shortly
19:58:15 <MichaelC_WCAG> zakim, close queue
19:58:15 <Zakim> ok, MichaelC_WCAG, the speaker queue is closed
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19:59:49 <Zakim> +Bruce_Bailey
20:00:09 <MichaelC_WCAG> MichaelC_WCAG has changed the topic to: 
20:00:15 <Zakim> -Bruce_Bailey
20:00:16 <Zakim> + +1.617.219.aaaa
20:00:18 <Zakim> -Bengt_Farre
20:00:19 <Zakim> +Bengt_Farre
20:00:24 <MichaelC_WCAG> zakim, +1.617 is FtF
20:00:24 <bengt> ?
20:00:25 <Zakim> +FtF; got it
20:00:32 <bengt> yes
20:00:33 <MichaelC_WCAG> zakim, open queue
20:00:33 <Zakim> ok, MichaelC_WCAG, the speaker queue is open
20:00:36 <MichaelC_WCAG> q+ cynthia
20:00:40 <Zakim> +Bruce_Bailey
20:00:41 <bengt> microfon is dead
20:01:27 <Zakim> +??P3
20:01:38 <Zakim> +Don_Evans
20:01:40 <MichaelC_WCAG> zakim, FtF has Gregg Vanderheiden, Ben Caldwell, Michael Cooper, Andrew Kirkpatrick, David MacDonald, Katie Haritos-Shea, Cynthia Shelly, Alex Li, Sofia Celic, Andi Snow-Weaver, Loretta Guarino Reid
20:01:40 <Zakim> +Gregg, Vanderheiden, Ben, Caldwell, Michael, Cooper, Andrew, Kirkpatrick, David, MacDonald, Katie, Haritos-Shea, Cynthia, Shelly, Alex, Li, Sofia, Celic, Andi, Snow-Weaver,
20:01:44 <Zakim> ... Loretta, Guarino, Reid; got it
20:01:47 <rellero> Zakim, ??P3 is Roberto_Ellero
20:01:47 <Zakim> +Roberto_Ellero; got it
20:02:01 <MichaelC_WCAG> zakim, you drive me nuts sometimes!
20:02:01 <Zakim> I don't understand 'you drive me nuts sometimes!', MichaelC_WCAG
20:02:08 <MichaelC_WCAG> zakim, tell Ralph that.
20:02:08 <Zakim> I don't understand 'tell Ralph that', MichaelC_WCAG
20:03:04 <MichaelC_WCAG> zakim, who's your daddy?
20:03:04 <Zakim> Ralph is taking good care of me but you all are my family, MichaelC_WCAG
20:03:53 <Zakim> -Bengt_Farre
20:04:49 <Zakim> +??P0
20:04:54 <bengt> zakim, ??P0 is Bengt_Farre
20:04:54 <Zakim> +Bengt_Farre; got it
20:04:59 <MichaelC_WCAG> zakim, Gregg Vanderheiden, Ben Caldwell, Michael Cooper, Andrew Kirkpatrick, David MacDonald, Katie Haritos-Shea, Cynthia Shelly, Alex Li, Sofia Celic, Andi Snow-Weaver, Loretta Guarino Reid is no longer in FtF
20:04:59 <Zakim> I don't understand you, MichaelC_WCAG
20:05:16 <MichaelC_WCAG> http://www.mibbit.com/
20:05:39 <Christophe> Christophe has joined #wai-wcag
20:05:47 <MichaelC_WCAG> zakim, Vanderheiden has left FtF
20:05:47 <Zakim> -Vanderheiden; got it
20:06:00 <MichaelC_WCAG> zakim, Caldwell, Cooper has left FtF
20:06:00 <Zakim> I don't understand 'Caldwell, Cooper has left FtF', MichaelC_WCAG
20:06:06 <MichaelC_WCAG> zakim, Caldwell and Cooper has left FtF
20:06:06 <Zakim> I don't understand 'Caldwell and Cooper has left FtF', MichaelC_WCAG
20:06:13 <MichaelC_WCAG> zakim, Caldwell, Cooper have left FtF
20:06:13 <Zakim> I don't understand 'Caldwell, Cooper have left FtF', MichaelC_WCAG
20:06:18 <MichaelC_WCAG> zakim, Caldwell has left FtF
20:06:18 <Zakim> -Caldwell; got it
20:06:23 <MichaelC_WCAG> zakim, Cooper has left FtF
20:06:23 <Zakim> -Cooper; got it
20:06:24 <Zakim> +Christophe_Strobbe
20:06:31 <MichaelC_WCAG> zakim, Kirkpatrick has left FtF
20:06:31 <Zakim> -Kirkpatrick; got it
20:06:37 <MichaelC_WCAG> zakim, MacDonald has left FtF
20:06:37 <Zakim> -MacDonald; got it
20:06:44 <MichaelC_WCAG> zakim, Haritos-Shea has left FtF
20:06:44 <Zakim> -Haritos-Shea; got it
20:06:49 <MichaelC_WCAG> zakim, Shelly has left FtF
20:06:49 <Zakim> -Shelly; got it
20:06:54 <MichaelC_WCAG> zakim, Li has left FtF
20:06:54 <Zakim> -Li; got it
20:06:59 <MichaelC_WCAG> zakim, Celic has left FtF
20:06:59 <Zakim> -Celic; got it
20:07:05 <MichaelC_WCAG> zakim, Snow-Weaver has left FtF
20:07:05 <Zakim> -Snow-Weaver; got it
20:07:13 <MichaelC_WCAG> zakim, Guarino has left FtF
20:07:13 <Zakim> -Guarino; got it
20:07:18 <MichaelC_WCAG> zakim, Reid has left FtF
20:07:18 <Zakim> -Reid; got it
20:07:24 <MichaelC_WCAG> zakim, who's on the phone?
20:07:24 <Zakim> On the phone I see FtF, Bruce_Bailey, Roberto_Ellero, Don_Evans, Bengt_Farre, Christophe_Strobbe
20:07:26 <Zakim> FtF has Gregg, Ben, Michael, Andrew, David, Katie, Cynthia, Alex, Sofia, Andi, Loretta
20:16:23 <Katie> q+
20:18:58 <awk> q+
20:22:09 <Zakim> -Roberto_Ellero
20:25:03 <rellero> rellero has joined #wai-wcag
20:25:23 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
20:25:38 <rellero> zaki, [IPcaller is Roberto_Ellero
20:25:49 <rellero> zakim, [IPcaller is Roberto_Ellero
20:25:49 <Zakim> +Roberto_Ellero; got it
20:26:11 <rellero> sorry, I am with 56K modem
20:29:02 <Sofia> q+
20:30:29 <Sofia> q+ to ask for clarification of the note associated with Accessibility Support Documentation - item 4 in the exit criteria
20:43:30 <Sofia> ack katie
20:44:58 <Andi> q+
20:49:22 <Zakim> -Don_Evans
20:49:47 <Andi> q-
20:50:56 <bailey> bailey has joined #wai-WCAG
20:51:09 <bailey> woot, i am in!
20:52:04 <David_MacDonald> q-
20:55:20 <David_MacDonald> q+
20:56:48 <Loretta> q-
20:56:54 <greggvanderheiden> q-
20:56:56 <Loretta> q- cynthia
20:57:06 <Loretta> q- awk
20:58:06 <MichaelC_WCAG> ack s
20:58:06 <Zakim> Sofia, you wanted to ask for clarification of the note associated with Accessibility Support Documentation - item 4 in the exit criteria
21:03:27 <Zakim> + +1.301.933.aabb
21:07:11 <bailey> q-
21:07:15 <MichaelC_WCAG> zakim, mute Tim
21:07:15 <Zakim> sorry, MichaelC_WCAG, I do not know which phone connection belongs to Tim
21:07:30 <MichaelC_WCAG> zakim, Tim is Tim_Boland
21:07:30 <Zakim> sorry, MichaelC_WCAG, I do not recognize a party named 'Tim'
21:07:45 <MichaelC_WCAG> zakim, +1.301 is Tim_Boland
21:07:45 <Zakim> +Tim_Boland; got it
21:07:48 <MichaelC_WCAG> zakim, mute Tim
21:07:48 <Zakim> Tim_Boland should now be muted
21:12:34 <Loretta> ack d
21:21:32 <awk> q+
21:31:46 <MichaelC_WCAG> q+ to say the issue isn't buying products, it's the content being available to users (who never chose what product you bought)
21:34:51 <awk> q-
21:34:59 <MichaelC_WCAG> ack me
21:34:59 <Zakim> MichaelC_WCAG, you wanted to say the issue isn't buying products, it's the content being available to users (who never chose what product you bought)
21:34:59 <David_MacDonald> q-
21:35:06 <David_MacDonald> q-
21:37:56 <awk> q+
21:39:37 <Zakim> -Roberto_Ellero
21:46:51 <MichaelC_WCAG> q+ to ask if we need to make any normative decisions before the end of the call in 15 minutes
21:59:36 <Zakim> -Tim_Boland
22:15:54 <MichaelC_WCAG> q-
22:16:23 <awk> q-
22:22:58 <greggvanderheiden> DEVELOPMENT OF TECHNIQUES AND ACCESSIBILITY SUPPORT FOR NEW TECHNOLOGIES
22:22:58 <greggvanderheiden> 1.	Picked a technology
22:22:59 <greggvanderheiden> 2.	Picked uses that were challenging – looked hard
22:22:59 <greggvanderheiden> 3.	Mapped uses against Success Criteria
22:23:00 <greggvanderheiden> 4.	Made sure there was something for each success criteria (or aspect of the SC) where it was needed and possible.
22:23:01 <greggvanderheiden> 5.	Wrote a statement of what I was trying to do
22:23:02 <greggvanderheiden> 6.	Created implementations to do that
22:23:04 <greggvanderheiden> 7.	Used API to screen for problems
22:23:06 <greggvanderheiden> 8.	(throughout I sent in bug reports and got them fixed)	
22:23:08 <greggvanderheiden> a.	With product team
22:23:10 <greggvanderheiden> b.	With AT vendor(s)
22:23:12 <greggvanderheiden> 9.	Tested with AT that I have
22:23:14 <greggvanderheiden> 10.	(throughout I sent in bug reports and got them fixed)
22:23:16 <greggvanderheiden> a.	With product team
22:23:17 <Zakim> -Bengt_Farre
22:23:19 <greggvanderheiden> b.	With AT vendor(s)
22:23:20 <greggvanderheiden> DOCUMENTING THE ACCESSIBILITY SUPPORT ACROSS COMBINATIONS
22:23:22 <greggvanderheiden> 1.	Took the techniques documented for the technology
22:23:24 <greggvanderheiden> 2.	Broke out permutations where necessary
22:23:27 <greggvanderheiden> 3.	Looked at all the features of the technology that related to user interface and would relate to accessibility
22:23:30 <greggvanderheiden> a.	(for programmatic language (script) look mostly at techniques to meet specific SC)
22:23:31 <greggvanderheiden> 4.	Create test pages for each use
22:23:34 <greggvanderheiden> 5.	Have different people test them with the AT/Platforms they have. 
22:23:36 <greggvanderheiden> 6.	Document combinations where they don't work and also situations (settings etc) where it works/not.
22:23:38 <greggvanderheiden> WAYS OF DOCUMENTING ACCESSIBILITY SUPPORT
22:23:39 <greggvanderheiden> 1.	Queriable base of data
22:23:42 <greggvanderheiden> 2.	Report 
22:23:44 <greggvanderheiden> WHAT IF YOU WANT TO USE A TECHNIQUE THAT IS NOT IN DOCUMENTATION
22:23:45 <greggvanderheiden> 1.	Test the technique yourself across AT/Platform combinations
22:23:47 <greggvanderheiden> 2.	Ask Technology Vendor (or AT vendors) to test it  
22:23:50 <greggvanderheiden> a.	(and potentially submit it for documentation for others’ use)
22:23:51 <greggvanderheiden> WHAT IS BEING DONE TO PUBLICLY DOCUMENT ACCESSIBILITY SUPPORT OF W3C TECHNOLOGIES?
22:23:54 <greggvanderheiden> 1.	Listing of the “uses” of the technology   
22:23:55 <greggvanderheiden> a.	Ideally it would cover all uses that relate to success criteria that are AT dependent.
22:23:57 <greggvanderheiden> 2.	Creating tests implementations of each of the uses
22:24:00 <greggvanderheiden> 3.	Testing each of  the uses
22:24:02 <greggvanderheiden> 4.	Providing the results including a listing of the Permutations of OS/UA/AT+ extensions tested
22:24:04 <greggvanderheiden> 5.	Providing the samples of the ‘uses’ that were used for testing  (e.g. web page with compiled sample of the use) (allows reproducibility).
22:24:07 <greggvanderheiden> a.	The test samples are designed to be suitable across other permutations  (allows expanding of the support testing beyond what was done) – but not required
22:31:44 <Zakim> -Bruce_Bailey
22:31:50 <Zakim> -FtF
22:31:54 <bailey> bye
22:32:10 <Zakim> -Christophe_Strobbe
22:32:11 <Zakim> WAI_WCAG()3:00PM has ended
22:32:12 <Zakim> Attendees were Bengt_Farre, Bruce_Bailey, +1.617.219.aaaa, Don_Evans, Gregg, Vanderheiden, Ben, Caldwell, Michael, Cooper, Andrew, Kirkpatrick, David, MacDonald, Katie,
22:32:16 <Zakim> ... Haritos-Shea, Cynthia, Shelly, Alex, Li, Sofia, Celic, Andi, Snow-Weaver, Loretta, Guarino, Reid, Roberto_Ellero, Christophe_Strobbe, [IPcaller], +1.301.933.aabb, Tim_Boland
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22:36:11 <MichaelC_WCAG> rrsagent, make minutes
22:36:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/10/02-wai-wcag-minutes.html MichaelC_WCAG
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