IRC log of ua on 2008-10-02

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:32:10 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
17:32:10 [RRSAgent]
logging to
17:32:24 [jallan]
rrsagent, set logs public
17:32:36 [jallan]
zakim, this will be wai_u
17:32:36 [Zakim]
ok, jallan; I see WAI_UAWG()2:00PM scheduled to start in 28 minutes
17:39:53 [jallan]
17:40:04 [jallan]
title: UAWG telecon
17:40:11 [jallan]
chair: Jim Allan
17:47:42 [jallan]
regrets: Mark_Hakkenin
17:51:46 [KFord]
KFord has joined #ua
17:52:41 [KFord]
tractbot, start telecon
17:53:36 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()2:00PM has now started
17:53:43 [Zakim]
17:54:16 [KFord]
zakim, [microsoft] is kford
17:54:16 [Zakim]
+kford; got it
17:54:17 [Zakim]
17:54:20 [jeanne]
jeanne has joined #ua
17:54:44 [KFord]
Chair: Jim_Allan
17:55:08 [KFord]
Scribe: KFord
17:56:49 [Jan]
Jan has joined #ua
17:56:50 [jeanne]
17:57:32 [jeanne]
17:57:43 [jeanne]
s/Sure/ /
17:58:41 [jeanne]
zakim, code?
17:58:41 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.117.370.6152), jeanne
17:59:17 [sharper]
sharper has joined #ua
18:00:17 [Zakim]
18:00:30 [Zakim]
18:00:53 [KFord]
Present: Jeanne, sharper, jallan, jan
18:01:02 [jeanne]
zakim, ??P8 is sharper
18:01:02 [Zakim]
+sharper; got it
18:02:08 [Zakim]
18:02:21 [Jan]
zakim, ??P9 is really Jan
18:02:21 [Zakim]
+Jan; got it
18:02:26 [judy]
judy has joined #ua
18:02:34 [KFord]
Present: JBrewer
18:02:39 [judy]
zakim, dial judy-office
18:02:39 [Zakim]
ok, judy; the call is being made
18:02:41 [Zakim]
18:05:22 [KFord]
Topic: F2F Agenda
18:05:29 [jallan]
18:06:23 [KFord]
Jeanne: Should we include other time zones.
18:07:33 [KFord]
18:07:59 [KFord]
Action: Jeanne to update F2F with GMT times plus local times.
18:07:59 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-25 - Update F2F with GMT times plus local times. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2008-10-09].
18:10:07 [sharper]
18:10:47 [KFord]
KFord: Any thought of splitting document review into two days?
18:11:18 [KFord]
JBrewer: Jeanne, can you update document with review priorities we wanted to use?
18:11:43 [KFord]
Action: Jeanne, update document review sections with review priorities.
18:11:43 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - Jeanne,
18:12:29 [KFord]
Jeanne: Suggest to use afternoon for issues time.
18:15:23 [KFord]
JAllen: I suggest we put document review to mornings and technical to afternoon.
18:16:10 [KFord]
Action: Jeanne update agenda to reflect change in plans.
18:16:10 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-26 - Update agenda to reflect change in plans. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2008-10-09].
18:18:09 [KFord]
Jallan: we don't have keyboard on F2F. Can we power through remianing items.
18:18:18 [KFord]
Topic: Keyboard access
18:18:48 [KFord]
SHarper had proposal of six rewrites to keyboard override.,
18:18:57 [jallan]
4.1.xx Simon rewrite
18:19:35 [jeanne]
zakim, call jeanne-work
18:19:35 [Zakim]
ok, jeanne; the call is being made
18:19:36 [Zakim]
18:19:55 [KFord]
Jallan: Jan indicated on mail list he liked option 1.
18:20:10 [KFord]
Jallan: I agreed this was the best.
18:20:43 [KFord]
Sharper: Can someone explain the recognized part?
18:21:33 [KFord]
JAN: It means that the user agent has to know this is a key binding. For accesskeys it knows what to do. For AJAX controls/javascript, the browser will likely not know what this key is for e.g. data entry, command.
18:22:19 [KFord]
Jallan: Further explanation, there are black holes where the user agent doesn't know what the key is for, again AJAX and such.
18:23:10 [KFord]
SHarper: This makes sense, my thinkin g was to start with accesskey. But do we need to know more than this. But do we need to do more.
18:23:35 [KFord]
For example, if ctrl+a is pressed, and the user has mapped to ctrl+k, does it really matter.
18:24:00 [KFord]
SHarper: the key was still pressed so the user wants this to be ctrtl+k.
18:24:45 [KFord]
JAN: Restates SHarper explanation, talking about at a higher level, process the keyboard action before anything else happens. Doesn't matter why.
18:24:57 [KFord]
Sharper: My last suggestion was to reflect this.
18:25:27 [Jan]
18:25:59 [KFord]
JAllan: I'm not sure if this is correct but my recollection from last F2F was that scripts, then accesskey then chrome gets keys. Not sure we can do anything about this.
18:26:42 [KFord]
JAN: I see what you are saying but UA could still do this. This would be just a top level mapping.
18:27:52 [judy]
18:27:55 [jallan]
KFord: browser makes choices of where keys go.
18:28:10 [Jan]
18:28:54 [judy]
q+ to explain that what she meant was that having to shift the associations disrupts "everyone" (e.g. users' learned key binding associations) not that the background phone ringing did
18:29:07 [Jan]
KF: I need to check but in IE, we always take alt-D...before AJAX
18:29:31 [Jan]
KF: I'm not 100% but I know we spent lots of time making this work
18:30:00 [Jan]
18:30:42 [KFord]
JBrewer: IF WaI were to issue guidelines that siad change what you've learned, probably wouldn't fly.
18:31:21 [judy]
18:31:29 [judy]
ack Jan
18:31:38 [Jan]
18:31:50 [Jan]
Scribe: Jan
18:32:18 [Jan]
SH: JR is right...I'm remapping at high level...alt D can still work
18:32:36 [Jan]
SH: Not even saying what needs to pick things up first
18:32:55 [Jan]
SH: Just a matter of what keys I want to press to activate what's there
18:33:47 [Jan]
JA: While you were talking I wish Al was here...
18:34:01 [Jan]
JA: Lots of keyboard mapping ATs out there.
18:34:15 [Jan]
JA: Maybe we are asking too much of base browsers
18:34:21 [Jan]
JB: Triple A?
18:34:29 [Jan]
JA: THink it's double A
18:34:51 [Jan]
JB: I'm concerned about the increasing complexity here
18:35:10 [Jan]
JB: Weren't we also going to check with PF on this
18:35:26 [Jan]
JB: To make sure we weren't going to collide with them
18:35:40 [Jan]
JA: I remember proposal...but no action item was created
18:36:04 [Jan]
JR: why a collision?
18:36:15 [Jan]
JA: PF working on access key stuff
18:37:15 [KFord]
JAN: We were talking about accesskey mapping and we were talking at a higher level than content. We are talking before keys are used for anything.
18:37:18 [Jan]
Action JA: Talk to PF about the issue of key remapping
18:37:18 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-27 - Talk to PF about the issue of key remapping [on Jim Allan - due 2008-10-09].
18:37:27 [KFord]
SHarper: Yes, this is what I'm talking about.
18:38:03 [Jan]
SH: Not specific to access keys
18:38:54 [Jan]
JA: But it is specific
18:39:05 [KFord]
JAN: I think in UAAG 1 there was a separate checkpoint addressing key mappings for the browser frame. This is a way to combine these.
18:39:23 [Jan]
JR: In old UAAG 1.0...there were weparte checkpoints for remapping keys to chrome and keys to content
18:39:39 [KFord]
KFord: I will also talk to one of our developers here.
18:40:03 [KFord]
JAllan: I will send to the group and then send to PF. Let's table this for now.
18:41:20 [jeanne]
18:41:52 [jeanne]
18:42:25 [judy]
zakim, who's here?
18:42:25 [Zakim]
On the phone I see kford, jallan, Jeanne, sharper, Jan, Judy, Jeanne
18:42:26 [Zakim]
On IRC I see judy, sharper, Jan, jeanne, KFord, RRSAgent, Zakim, jallan, trackbot
18:44:12 [jeanne]
18:45:25 [KFord]
KFord, interesting phone echos, cats and other such items.
18:46:48 [Jan]
18:50:43 [judy]
18:52:01 [KFord]
Meeting pauses to review open action items at above URL and close as appropriate.
18:53:20 [KFord]
Action: Jeanne update agenda to include breaks/lunch.
18:53:20 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-28 - Update agenda to include breaks/lunch. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2008-10-09].
18:54:17 [KFord]
kford: Review of action items concludes.
18:54:44 [KFord]
Jallan: Now talking about 4.10 and 4.X.
18:55:42 [KFord]
JAN: We talked about this before. The new issue here was to drop within and the new thing was to go within groups.
18:55:50 [KFord]
Action: Jallan review 4.11.
18:55:50 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-29 - Review 4.11. [on Jim Allan - due 2008-10-09].
18:56:44 [KFord]
Topic: 4.2 Provide access to event handleers.
18:57:11 [jallan]
4.2.1 All Available: The user can activate, through keyboard input alone, all input device event handlers (including those for pointing devices, voice, etc.) that are explicitly associated with the element designated by the content focus.
18:57:18 [KFord]
me Jim are you pasting this?
19:00:30 [KFord]
KFord: KFord today I don't know of a user agent that really does all of this. Further explanation.
19:01:13 [KFord]
JAN: There are some practical problems with this. Gave example of complex mouse interactions.
19:02:02 [Jan]
KF: When I think about this...problem today...2 categories...supplemenetal functionality...
19:02:24 [Jan]
KF: User agent lets you get to link with TAB but not the mouse actions...
19:03:09 [Jan]
KF: ex. imagine I have website...I write some here to go to my Free offer
19:03:24 [Jan]
KF: In script onclick go here...makes a link
19:03:35 [Jan]
KF: Keyboard user locked out
19:04:15 [Jan]
KF: Could we argue that UA should allow access to this
19:04:34 [Jan]
KF: This is already saying this to some extent....but I'm talking about onclick
19:05:13 [Jan]
KF: But supporting all of the other actions would be too much
19:05:24 [Jan]
JR: So you are saying onclick is best bang for the buck
19:05:27 [Jan]
KF: Yes
19:05:41 [Jan]
KF: Thinking about what's practical
19:06:05 [Jan]
JS: Think we could approach...user agent should "repair"...
19:06:26 [KFord]
Jeanne: I think we should could approach this from the approach of repair.
19:06:33 [Jan]
JA: This one is really further expansion of 4.1.1...all functions should be avaialble from the keyboard
19:07:07 [KFord]
\JAllan: I think this is just a narrowing of our top level requirement that all functionality be available from the keyboard.
19:08:30 [Jan]
KF: Not realistic always...because mouse has different interaction model
19:08:43 [Jan]
KF: But on flip side not saying I want to lock users out
19:08:59 [Jan]
KF: I'm not a mouse user....
19:09:42 [Jan]
KF: So what are things you do with mouse that are actually too tedious for keyboard users...maybe answer is don't limit people.
19:10:30 [Jan]
JB: One behaviour is significant level of muscle weakness/fatigue...becomes tiring to move hands alot or do a repeated motion...
19:10:55 [Jan]
JB: Condition can be extremely variable...sometimes even hard to move from mouse to keyboard
19:11:19 [Jan]
JB: Irony then is it is best to do all with keyboard or all with mouse
19:11:37 [Jan]
JB: THink this is sometimes misunderstood
19:12:14 [Jan]
KF: OK, but at what point would you think an AT should come into play vs. base funtionality
19:12:28 [Jan]
KF: e.g. all OS's have mousekeys
19:12:44 [Jan]
KF: We aren't asking for screen readers for eg.
19:13:02 [Jan]
JB: I think every command function should be interoperable with question
19:13:46 [Jan]
KF: Assumption that screen readers are mature enough to demand interoperability from UAs
19:14:07 [Jan]
JB: Prob with that this APIs aren't completely in place.
19:15:14 [Jan]
KF: Here's how you might write this (in extreme): you have to be able to do everything you can do with mouse with the keyboard or support the platform's AT interoperablity mechanism
19:15:26 [Jan]
KF: Doesn't have to build it in directly
19:15:34 [Jan]
JB: Don't we say that?
19:16:12 [Jan]
KF: Not today...I don't think it's ok to say I don't need to do that because OS has mousekeys
19:16:45 [Jan]
missed JB's clarification
19:17:05 [Jan]
KF: I think if one of 2 ways works, you've satisfied basic level of access
19:17:27 [Jan]
KF: Works like "all" make it hard to see what UA should do
19:17:36 [judy]
s/Don't we say that?/Isn't it already the expectation that applications should support existing on-board access features such as mousekeys?
19:17:39 [Jan]
JA: I've been enjoying discussion...valuable
19:18:06 [Jan]
JA: Yeah we can fall back to mousekeys...but then we're missing out on effeciency
19:18:42 [Jan]
JA: Also think there is a host of things...e.g. tooltips or title tags ...which I think are events...can't come up with keyboard...
19:18:53 [Jan]
JA: I think that hampers keyboard users
19:19:11 [Jan]
JA: At the same time, it's a crossover issue...WAI ARIA...
19:19:16 [Jan]
JA: And also WCAG2
19:19:36 [Jan]
KF: OK...bit of tangent...I'm a fan of ARIA...but it opens lots of new problems...
19:19:42 [Jan]
KF: ARIA is dangerous...
19:20:00 [Jan]
KF: In 2 seconds I can call any peice of HTML a new role....
19:20:23 [Jan]
KF: So it's entirely implicit on author to make things behave like trees....
19:20:38 [Jan]
KF: And guess won't act like a tree most of the time
19:20:54 [Jan]
19:21:05 [Jan]
JA: Right and outside TAB tree
19:21:16 [Jan]
KF: Don't want to be a fear monger
19:21:28 [Jan]
KF: I've made the same points in other places
19:21:35 [Jan]
KF: But concerns me greatly
19:21:54 [Jan]
KF: Same thing as custom controls in Win32
19:23:09 [Jan]
JR: Hope is a toolbox like DOJO will do all the work
19:23:54 [Jan]
KF: Not sure about that...I see examples of companies trying to be on leading edge...doing their own thing
19:24:09 [Jan]
19:24:39 [Jan]
KF: Part of me says hey user agent...if that thing was called a tree, make it work...but of course that's not practical\
19:24:52 [Jan]
JA: All these are relevant issues
19:25:05 [Jan]
JA: But back to 4.2.1...
19:25:46 [KFord]
Jallan: Does our wording work?
19:26:02 [KFord]
JAN: I don't think you can just say fire them all.
19:26:30 [KFord]
JAN: Gave example of complex mouse events again.
19:27:10 [Jan]
JA: To me...maybe we needto change wording....but onmouseover same as onfocus is more like a technique
19:27:35 [KFord]
Jallan: I think saying things like onmouseover should move focus and such needs to be in a technique.
19:28:16 [KFord]
JAN: Need some technique to have some wiggle room.
19:28:32 [Jan]
JR: So some instead of all input device handlers
19:28:51 [Jan]
KF: What does the section 508 redraft say?
19:29:26 [Jan]
KF: Most access guidelines say it like this...but then we redefine somewhere else and say all doesn't mean all.
19:29:44 [Jan]
JB: I'd have to check 508.
19:30:32 [Jan]
JA: If I have some item...more than one action can fire
19:30:56 [Jan]
KF: I can build a whole flyout menu...
19:31:17 [Jan]
KF: But I would argue that content author has failed already
19:31:38 [Jan]
JA: I see it's endd of our time
19:31:44 [Jan]
JB: Interesting discussion
19:32:50 [Jan]
JB: Anyone want an action item on 4.1.2?
19:32:58 [Jan]
JB: Anyone want an action item on 4.2.1?
19:33:18 [KFord]
Action: kford, JAllan to revisit access
19:33:18 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - kford,
19:34:10 [KFord]
Action: KF, Jallen to revisit keyboard access and definiton of all and such.
19:34:10 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - KF,
19:34:47 [Zakim]
19:34:54 [Zakim]
19:35:00 [Zakim]
19:35:14 [KFord]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:35:14 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate KFord
19:35:30 [Zakim]
19:35:51 [Zakim]
19:36:41 [KFord]
zakim, please part
19:36:41 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were kford, jallan, Jeanne, sharper, Jan, Judy
19:36:41 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
19:37:50 [KFord]
19:38:24 [KFord]
rrsagent, draft minutes
19:38:24 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate KFord
19:40:28 [KFord]
Present: JBrewer, Jeanne, JAllan, Sharper, Jan, KFord
19:40:39 [KFord]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:40:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate KFord
19:43:35 [KFord]
Title: W3C UAG 10/2/2008
19:43:52 [KFord]
rrsagent, draft minutes
19:43:52 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate KFord
19:51:05 [KFord]
rrsagent, please part
19:51:05 [RRSAgent]
I see 8 open action items saved in :
19:51:05 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jeanne to update F2F with GMT times plus local times. [1]
19:51:05 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
19:51:05 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jeanne, update document review sections with review priorities. [2]
19:51:05 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
19:51:05 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jeanne update agenda to reflect change in plans. [3]
19:51:05 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
19:51:05 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JA to Talk to PF about the issue of key remapping [4]
19:51:05 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
19:51:05 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jeanne update agenda to include breaks/lunch. [5]
19:51:05 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
19:51:05 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jallan review 4.11. [6]
19:51:05 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
19:51:05 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: kford, JAllan to revisit access [7]
19:51:05 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
19:51:05 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: KF, Jallen to revisit keyboard access and definiton of all and such. [8]
19:51:05 [RRSAgent]
recorded in