16:57:55 RRSAgent has joined #owl 16:57:55 logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/10/01-owl-irc 16:58:06 rrsagent, make log public 16:58:28 zakim, ??P1 is cgolbrei 16:58:28 +cgolbrei; got it 16:58:30 zakim, dial ivan-voip 16:58:30 ok, ivan; the call is being made 16:58:31 +Ivan 16:58:37 pfps has joined #owl 16:58:58 +??P3 16:59:02 Zakim, ??P3 is me 16:59:02 +bmotik; got it 16:59:05 Zakim, mute me 16:59:05 bmotik should now be muted 16:59:11 zakim, mute me 16:59:11 Ivan should now be muted 16:59:19 +Sandro 16:59:45 MarkusK_ has joined #owl 16:59:48 bcuencagrau has joined #owl 17:00:01 +Peter_Patel-Schneider 17:00:14 pfps has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Teleconference.2008.10.01/Agenda 17:00:44 zakim, mute me 17:00:44 cgolbrei should now be muted 17:01:00 + +1.518.276.aaaa 17:01:04 uli has joined #owl 17:01:12 +??P12 17:01:15 Zakim, aaaa is baojie 17:01:15 +baojie; got it 17:02:18 +??P13 17:02:41 zakim, ??p13 is me 17:02:45 +Carsten; got it 17:02:58 +Alan_Ruttenberg 17:03:08 zakim, who is here? 17:03:08 On the phone I see cgolbrei (muted), Ivan (muted), bmotik (muted), Sandro, Peter_Patel-Schneider, baojie, MarkusK_, Carsten, Alan_Ruttenberg 17:03:10 On IRC I see uli, MarkusK_, pfps, RRSAgent, cgolbrei, Zakim, bmotik, ivan, baojie, Carsten, alanr, sandro, trackbot 17:03:27 bcuencagrau has joined #owl 17:03:51 + +1.603.897.aabb 17:03:55 Zhe has joined #owl 17:03:56 bcuencagrau has joined #owl 17:04:05 zakim, mute me 17:04:05 sorry, Zhe, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you 17:04:31 zakim, mute me 17:04:31 Carsten should now be muted 17:04:43 Zhe1 has joined #owl 17:04:49 - +1.603.897.aabb 17:04:56 zakim, who is here? 17:04:56 On the phone I see cgolbrei (muted), Ivan (muted), bmotik (muted), Sandro, Peter_Patel-Schneider, baojie, MarkusK_, Carsten (muted), Alan_Ruttenberg 17:04:58 On IRC I see Zhe1, bcuencagrau, uli, MarkusK_, pfps, RRSAgent, cgolbrei, Zakim, bmotik, ivan, baojie, Carsten, alanr, sandro, trackbot 17:05:18 + +1.603.897.aacc 17:05:28 Zakim, +1.603.897.acc is me 17:05:28 sorry, Zhe1, I do not recognize a party named '+1.603.897.acc' 17:05:36 +??P17 17:05:39 Achille has joined #owl 17:05:43 Zakim, +1.603.897.accc is me 17:05:43 sorry, Zhe1, I do not recognize a party named '+1.603.897.accc' 17:05:44 +??P19 17:05:44 zakim, ??P17 is me 17:05:46 +uli; got it 17:05:48 thank you 17:05:54 zakim, +1.603.897.aabb is me 17:05:54 sorry, Zhe1, I do not recognize a party named '+1.603.897.aabb' 17:05:55 bcuencagrau has joined #owl 17:06:04 Topic: Agenda amendments? 17:06:09 zakim, 1.603.897.aabb is me 17:06:09 sorry, Zhe1, I do not recognize a party named '1.603.897.aabb' 17:06:21 +[IBM] 17:06:34 Zakim, IBM is me 17:06:34 +Achille; got it 17:06:36 - +1.603.897.aacc 17:07:41 PROPOSED: Accept Previous Previous Minutes (17 September) http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/meeting/2008-09-17 17:07:44 msmith has joined #owl 17:07:52 unmute me 17:08:05 Zakim, who is here? 17:08:05 On the phone I see cgolbrei (muted), Ivan (muted), bmotik (muted), Sandro, Peter_Patel-Schneider, baojie, MarkusK_, Carsten (muted), Alan_Ruttenberg, uli, ??P19, Achille 17:08:08 On IRC I see msmith, bcuencagrau, Achille, uli, MarkusK_, pfps, RRSAgent, cgolbrei, Zakim, bmotik, ivan, baojie, Carsten, alanr, sandro, trackbot 17:08:13 +msmith 17:08:18 Zhe has joined #owl 17:08:37 zakim, unmute me 17:08:37 cgolbrei should no longer be muted 17:08:47 + +1.603.897.aadd 17:08:58 zakim, + +1.603.897.aadd is me 17:08:58 I don't understand '+ +1.603.897.aadd is me', Zhe 17:09:00 bcuencagrau has joined #owl 17:09:06 ivan, ??P19 could be bernardo? 17:09:10 zakim, +1.603.897.aadd is me 17:09:10 +Zhe; got it 17:09:16 thank god! 17:09:21 the *current* version of the minutes of 17 Sept is OK (but in a slightly strange state) 17:09:25 zakim, mute me 17:09:25 Zhe should now be muted 17:09:34 zakim, ??P19 is bernardo 17:09:34 +bernardo; got it 17:09:47 Peter: minutes are incorrect 17:09:58 that could be my mistake 17:10:14 ewallace has joined #owl 17:10:26 bcuencagrau has joined #owl 17:10:29 like this: {{Issue|137}} 17:10:50 sandro: formatting problem 17:11:13 RESOLVED: Accept Previous Previous Minutes (17 September) http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/meeting/2008-09-17 -- with possible formatting fixes on ACTION/ISSUE links to be done. 17:11:24 PROPOSED: Accept Previous Minutes (24 September) http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/meeting/2008-09-24 17:11:50 24 Sept minutes are minimally acceptable 17:12:16 zakim, unmute me 17:12:16 Carsten should no longer be muted 17:13:09 carsten : will do further polishing, propose to accept them 17:13:11 zakim, mute me 17:13:11 Carsten should now be muted 17:13:16 OK 17:13:18 RESOLVED: Accept Previous Minutes (24 September) http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/meeting/2008-09-24 -- with possible future improvements 17:13:41 Topic: Pending Review Actions 17:13:42 action-214? 17:13:42 ACTION-214 -- Michael Smith to edit previous minutes to reflect michael sch's complaint -- due 2008-10-01 -- PENDINGREVIEW 17:13:42 http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/tracker/actions/214 17:14:03 +Evan_Wallace 17:14:15 action-214 closed 17:14:18 ACTION-214 Edit previous minutes to reflect michael sch's complaint closed 17:14:27 -MarkusK_ 17:14:30 action-202? 17:14:30 ACTION-202 -- Alan Ruttenberg to have another try at punning proposal in the light of discussion with peter and come up with test cases -- due 2008-09-09 -- OPEN 17:14:30 http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/tracker/actions/202 17:14:37 action-174? 17:14:37 ACTION-174 -- Bijan Parsia to provide an rdf serialization for his rich annotation proposal -- due 2008-09-11 -- OPEN 17:14:37 http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/tracker/actions/174 17:14:45 status of overdue actions 189 and 207? 17:14:53 action-189? 17:14:53 ACTION-189 -- Alan Ruttenberg to review RDF Mapping -- due 2008-09-08 -- OPEN 17:14:53 http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/tracker/actions/189 17:15:06 action-207? 17:15:07 ACTION-207 -- Sandro Hawke to keep rdf:text publication on track -- due 2008-09-23 -- OPEN 17:15:07 http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/tracker/actions/207 17:15:46 I had to change my status, it is now unlike I will be at f2f4 17:15:51 I haven't registered yet because I don't know whehter my visa status in UK will have been resolved by then 17:15:51 Topic: Fourth Face-to-Face (F2F) Meeting, have to register 17:16:00 Topic: Reviewing and Publishing 17:17:27 Zakim, unmute me 17:17:27 bmotik should no longer be muted 17:17:56 bernardo has joined #owl 17:17:57 bmotik: addressed comments from Ian, Jeff, Ivan and sent report 17:18:12 I am fine 17:18:26 ... Peter found the comments are found, so nothing more TBD 17:18:31 Zakim, mute me 17:18:31 bmotik should now be muted 17:18:33 s/found/fine/ 17:18:35 s/found/fine 17:19:33 http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Reviewing 17:19:51 q+ 17:20:01 ack ivan 17:20:03 ack iva 17:20:26 ivan:RDF is not in the list 17:20:27 q+ 17:20:30 Zakim, unmute me 17:20:30 bmotik should no longer be muted 17:20:49 ack bmotik 17:21:16 which document is this about? 17:21:21 rdf:text 17:21:33 in our syntax document? 17:21:44 bmotik: facets included but will take a quicl look for built-in functions 17:22:19 q+ 17:22:36 q- 17:23:26 Zakim, mute me 17:23:26 bmotik should now be muted 17:23:27 I thought Sandro made a snap shot of the wiki document 17:23:34 Boris's plan sounds perfect 17:23:57 Syntax 17:24:01 RDF Semantic 17:24:07 Zakim, unmute me 17:24:07 bmotik should no longer be muted 17:26:12 Action: Jie get to the RIF to ensure that RDF changes are done properly 17:26:12 Created ACTION-217 - Get to the RIF to ensure that RDF changes are done properly [on Jie Bao - due 2008-10-08]. 17:26:16 process for rdf:text : have RIF make last changes. Get 3 reviewers/reviews. Vote to publish. RIF does same. 17:26:47 (On the RIF side, there's RIF action 603: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/actions/603 ) 17:26:48 bcuencagrau3 has joined #owl 17:27:20 http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/images/8/8b/Owl2-refcard_2008-10-01.pdf 17:27:55 Zakim, mute me 17:27:55 bmotik should now be muted 17:27:57 i'll review the QRG 17:27:57 Topic: Quick Reference Guide 17:28:46 i can review it, but I will be out of circulation most of next week 17:28:52 Action: pfps review QRG 17:28:52 Created ACTION-218 - Review QRG [on Peter Patel-Schneider - due 2008-10-08]. 17:29:09 action: ivan to review QRG 17:29:09 Created ACTION-219 - Review QRG [on Ivan Herman - due 2008-10-08]. 17:29:17 zakim, unmute me 17:29:17 uli was not muted, uli 17:29:45 I can do it, but for November 15 17:30:49 Uli: will also review QRG 17:30:56 +??P12 17:31:34 question about the various syntaxes 17:31:59 October 15 should be o.k. with me, too 17:32:07 ... 3 reviewers for november 15 17:32:16 October 30?! 17:32:24 s/november/october ! 17:32:38 zakim, mute me 17:32:38 uli should now be muted 17:33:20 ACTION: Uli review the RefCard by end of October 17:33:20 ivan 17:33:20 Created ACTION-220 - Review the RefCard by end of October [on Uli Sattler - due 2008-10-08]. 17:33:31 the actions have already been made 17:33:48 action-220 due 2008-10-31 17:33:48 ACTION-220 Review the RefCard by end of October due date now 2008-10-31 17:34:02 Topic: Requirements 17:34:09 action: ivan review RefCard - due 2008-10-31 17:34:09 Created ACTION-221 - review RefCard [on Ivan Herman - due 2008-10-31]. 17:34:19 pfps, were you the third reviewer? 17:34:54 yes, I'm the third (man), wait for me :-) 17:35:19 action: pfps to review RefCard - due 2008-10-31 17:35:19 Created ACTION-222 - review RefCard [on Peter Patel-Schneider - due 2008-10-31]. 17:36:26 http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/RequirementsDraft 17:37:44 I will close the first one which has wrong date anyway 17:39:38 zakim, unmute me 17:39:38 Zhe should no longer be muted 17:40:45 q+ 17:41:08 Zakim, unmute me 17:41:08 bmotik should no longer be muted 17:41:15 ack bmotik 17:41:18 q+ 17:41:19 zakim, mute me 17:41:19 Zhe should now be muted 17:43:28 What Alan said was my intent. 17:44:01 Have to leave, sorry. Bye everybody. 17:44:25 -Carsten 17:44:34 ack achille 17:44:55 ACTION: bmotik2 to Fill in some TBDs (keys and declarations) in the Requirements docuement 17:44:55 Created ACTION-223 - Fill in some TBDs (keys and declarations) in the Requirements docuement [on Boris Motik - due 2008-10-08]. 17:45:25 Achille, are you doing the action or am I? 17:46:17 Action: Zhe, Achille, Boris to make it before F2F 17:46:17 Sorry, couldn't find user - Zhe, 17:46:19 Sandro, please do it - I've never done it before it will probably take me more time than you. 17:46:36 :) 17:47:16 Action Zhe to fill TBD implementation perspective in the Req before F2F 17:47:16 Created ACTION-224 - Fill TBD implementation perspective in the Req before F2F [on Zhe Wu - due 2008-10-08]. 17:47:39 I will change the date 17:47:44 Action Boris Fill TBD implementation perspective in the Req before F2F [on Zhe Wu - due 2008-10-08 17:47:44 Created ACTION-225 - Fill TBD implementation perspective in the Req before F2F [on Zhe Wu [on Boris Motik - due 2008-10-08]. 17:48:11 225 duplicated 223. I'll close 225 17:48:15 action-225 closed 17:48:15 ACTION-225 Fill TBD implementation perspective in the Req before F2F [on Zhe Wu closed 17:48:17 Action Achille Fill TBD implementation perspective in the Req before F2F 17:48:17 Created ACTION-226 - Fill TBD implementation perspective in the Req before F2F [on Achille Fokoue - due 2008-10-08]. 17:48:24 Topic: Metamodel 17:48:33 I'm confused, isn't the metamodel an issue? 17:49:48 action-224 due 2008-10-20 17:49:48 ACTION-224 Fill TBD implementation perspective in the Req before F2F due date now 2008-10-20 17:49:53 action-226 due 2008-10-20 17:49:53 ACTION-226 Fill TBD implementation perspective in the Req before F2F due date now 2008-10-20 17:51:11 action: alanr to ask elisa, conrad if they will review metamodel 17:51:11 Sorry, couldn't find user - alanr 17:51:15 Alan was just speaking 17:51:16 Alan was "me" 17:51:40 Action : alanr an email to Elisa and other interesyed person about metamodel 17:51:40 Sorry, couldn't find user - alanr 17:51:52 action: alan to email to Elisa and other interesyed person about metamodel 17:51:52 Created ACTION-227 - Email to Elisa and other interesyed person about metamodel [on Alan Ruttenberg - due 2008-10-08]. 17:52:12 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2008Sep/0044.html 17:52:42 s/interesyed / interested/ 17:54:30 Peter: issues about SKOS Reference 17:54:57 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2008Sep/att-0044/review-schneid-skos-reference-lc.pdf 17:55:41 comments are embedded in pdf, and peter can't see what the comments are. 17:55:45 q+ 17:56:03 ack ivan 17:57:45 comments on the pdf have also been made accessible by email 17:57:55 q+ 17:58:02 Zakim, mute me 17:58:02 bmotik should now be muted 17:58:12 first mail on Michael's review http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2008Sep/0070.html 17:58:13 ack ivan 17:58:17 it would be nice 18:00:00 q+ 18:00:21 zakim, unmute me 18:00:21 uli should no longer be muted 18:00:21 uli 18:01:01 3 October! 18:01:07 uli: discussed with Sean to know what can be done 18:01:33 I believe that it may be possible to have an informative OWL 2 version of SKOS 18:01:39 q+ 18:01:46 q+ 18:01:46 ack uli 18:02:03 ack sandro 18:02:13 zakim, mute me 18:02:13 uli should now be muted 18:02:40 can you say LPU? 18:03:05 ack pfps 18:03:09 q+ alanr 18:04:02 pfps: nothing says that the XML document is normative 18:05:12 ack alanr 18:06:24 q+ to ask for an example of moving to OWL 2 will help junkiness 18:06:32 ack pfps 18:06:32 pfps, you wanted to ask for an example of moving to OWL 2 will help junkiness 18:07:22 q+ 18:08:42 q+ to ask about "one preferential label per language" 18:08:50 ack pfps 18:08:50 pfps, you wanted to ask about "one preferential label per language" 18:08:56 ack ivan 18:09:33 ivan : one thing to say them that somethings can be done better by OWL2 18:09:48 I watch the list and participated in some of the discussions early on. I think there would be real benefit 18:09:55 ack pfps 18:12:52 ask SKOS whether they would like to have an informative version of SKOS ? 18:13:11 I think that a WG note with this sole comment would be good idea 18:13:19 1) Send Peters review as WG review as is 18:13:22 s/.../informative OWL 2 version of SKOS/ 18:13:33 2) Have Peter send review as personal 18:13:59 3) Add note asking for (in some emphatic way) an informative OWL 2 rendering of SKOS as part of their output, with our help 18:14:13 0) don't care 18:14:23 2+3 18:14:31 +3 18:14:35 2+3 18:14:43 +3 18:14:44 +3 18:14:45 +3 18:14:50 +3 18:14:52 3 18:14:55 3 18:15:00 1 or 2 + 3 18:15:12 3 18:15:48 action pfps revise note to SKOS as WG comment 18:15:48 Created ACTION-228 - Revise note to SKOS as WG comment [on Peter Patel-Schneider - due 2008-10-08]. 18:19:20 ivan : SKOS will probably answer go ahead but dont' see the group will do the OWL 2 rendering of SKOS 18:19:51 q+ 18:19:53 q+ 18:19:55 ack pfps 18:20:27 q- 18:20:50 q+ 18:20:56 Pfps: essentially we're using Schema's Equality instead of Identity, inside OWL. 18:21:18 ack msmith 18:21:26 pfps: We're using your equality as Real Equality, instead of as some kind of equivalence class -- and they seem to be okay with that. 18:21:55 q+ alanr 18:21:58 mike: This came up wrt float and decimal being disjoint, and they said No, Clear We Want Them To Be The Same Number. That might be different here. 18:22:07 ack alanr 18:22:08 q+ 18:22:19 pfps: i think Mike's right, and I am too. They seem to be receptive to even more conflation. 18:22:36 Zakim, unmute me 18:22:36 bmotik should no longer be muted 18:23:57 Boris: Equality in our case is used only for facets -- everything else in OWL is based on Identity. It's a fine line whether this is similar to what we had with numerics. From a logic point of view it's obvious to treat 1^^int as the same as 1^^float -- the distinction XSD had for this was pragmatic, but odd for logic, where you don't have casting. 18:24:28 Boris: So I think first of all, our decision wrt numerics was what people expected. We can use the same arguments for dateTime, but I think we're going further. 18:25:02 XML Schema is adding a sub-type of xsd:dateTime with required timezon 18:25:03 -bernardo 18:25:22 Boris: So we should use a different namespace. That enables folks to use both. 18:25:44 +1 18:26:03 ask them about ignoring identity/equality distinction 18:26:35 pfps: They're going to add a facet and make a subtype (like we want) which requires timezeone. 18:27:10 pfps: The quesiton (the "abuse") is whether we can use their notion of equality as our notion of identity. I'm prepared to write to them and tell them exactly what we plan to do. 18:27:47 pfps: I think we owe it to them to tell them exactly what we plan to do. I can couch it as "if you do this, we'll do such-and-such". 18:27:51 ivan: sounds good to me 18:27:54 alan: me too 18:28:08 boris: Sure, sounds reasonable to me. 18:28:30 boris: If they don't see a problem, maybe they can put a note explaining this into their document, saying folks are free to do this. 18:28:43 alan: Peter, please go ahead and do that. 18:28:50 Peter: I'll do it! 18:29:09 bye 18:29:11 bye everyone 18:29:15 bye 18:29:16 bye 18:29:17 -uli 18:29:18 -Ivan 18:29:18 -bmotik 18:29:19 -Achille 18:29:19 -MarkusK_ 18:29:19 -msmith 18:29:20 -Sandro 18:29:21 bye 18:29:22 -baojie 18:29:24 -Alan_Ruttenberg 18:29:26 -Peter_Patel-Schneider 18:29:28 -Zhe 18:29:39 -Evan_Wallace 18:29:48 MarkusK_ has left #owl 18:37:26 uli has left #owl 18:39:29 -cgolbrei 18:39:30 SW_OWL()1:00PM has ended 18:39:32 Attendees were cgolbrei, Ivan, bmotik, Sandro, Peter_Patel-Schneider, +1.518.276.aaaa, baojie, MarkusK_, Carsten, Alan_Ruttenberg, +1.603.897.aabb, +1.603.897.aacc, uli, Achille, 18:39:35 ... msmith, Zhe, bernardo, Evan_Wallace 20:23:01 Zakim has left #owl