IRC log of rif on 2008-09-30

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:44:34 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rif
14:44:34 [RRSAgent]
logging to
14:44:41 [ChrisW]
zakim, list agenda
14:44:41 [Zakim]
I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
14:44:42 [Zakim]
9. AOB [from ChrisW]
14:44:47 [ChrisW]
zakim, clear agenda
14:44:47 [Zakim]
agenda cleared
14:44:52 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:44:52 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ChrisW
14:45:07 [ChrisW]
Meeting: RIF Telecon 30 Sep 08
14:45:14 [csma]
14:45:21 [csma]
14:45:43 [ChrisW]
Christian de Sainte Marie
14:45:45 [ChrisW]
Chair: Christian de Sainte Marie
14:46:00 [ChrisW]
did yuou get a scribe?
14:46:13 [ChrisW]
14:46:28 [ChrisW]
ChrisW has changed the topic to: 30 Sept RIF telecon agenda
14:46:37 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make logs public
14:46:55 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Admin
14:47:00 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Liason
14:47:06 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Public comments
14:47:12 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Action review
14:47:20 [ChrisW]
agenda+ F2F11 debrief
14:47:31 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Test cases
14:47:34 [ChrisW]
agenda+ AOB
14:47:46 [ChrisW]
15:00:24 [Hassan]
Hassan has joined #rif
15:00:40 [Harold]
Harold has joined #rif
15:00:41 [Zakim]
SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
15:00:52 [Zakim]
15:01:07 [mdean]
mdean has joined #rif
15:01:10 [Hassan]
zakim, ??P1 is me
15:01:16 [Zakim]
+ +39.047.101.aaaa
15:01:19 [Zakim]
+Hassan; got it
15:01:24 [josb]
josb has joined #rif
15:01:27 [Zakim]
15:01:52 [Zakim]
15:02:01 [csma]
zakim, ??P19 is me
15:02:05 [Zakim]
+csma; got it
15:02:10 [Zakim]
15:02:40 [Zakim]
15:02:49 [ChrisW]
zakim, ibm is temporarily me
15:02:49 [Zakim]
+ChrisW; got it
15:02:52 [Zakim]
15:04:03 [Zakim]
15:05:10 [csma]
Zakim, ??P39 is me
15:05:10 [Zakim]
+csma; got it
15:06:02 [Zakim]
15:06:34 [csma]
scribe: Gary Hallmark
15:06:37 [Hassan]
Thanks Gary! :-)
15:06:58 [ChanghaiKe]
ChanghaiKe has joined #rif
15:08:39 [GaryHallmark]
GaryHallmark has joined #rif
15:08:43 [csma]
scribenick: GaryHallmark
15:08:56 [csma]
agendum admin
15:09:05 [csma]
next item
15:09:11 [csma]
next item
15:09:19 [csma]
zakim, take up agendum 2
15:09:19 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Liason" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:09:40 [ChrisW]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:09:40 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Hassan (muted), josb, csma, Mike_Dean, [NRCC], ChrisW, Sandro, csma.a, Gary
15:10:12 [GaryHallmark]
csma: PRR rechartered
15:10:16 [ChrisW]
who is csma.a? (or csma)?
15:11:07 [ChanghaiKe]
Hi, I'm Changhai
15:11:11 [ChrisW]
zakim, mute csma.a
15:11:11 [Zakim]
csma.a should now be muted
15:11:35 [ChrisW]
zakim, unmute csma.a
15:11:37 [Zakim]
csma.a should no longer be muted
15:11:43 [ChrisW]
zakim, csma.a is ChanghaiKe
15:11:43 [Zakim]
+ChanghaiKe; got it
15:11:48 [Gary]
Gary has joined #rif
15:11:58 [csma]
next item
15:12:06 [ChrisW]
zakim, take up item 3
15:12:06 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Public comments" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:12:37 [Gary]
ScribeNick: Gary
15:12:42 [AxelPolleres]
AxelPolleres has joined #rif
15:13:47 [Gary]
chrisw: pls check over Chris' responses to public comments
15:14:18 [Harold]
15:14:57 [Zakim]
15:15:04 [Gary]
harold: seeks feedback on adding common logic references
15:15:47 [Gary]
Chrisw: common logic community doesn't care so much for BLD
15:17:07 [Gary]
... not politics, just "scientific" disagreement
15:18:18 [Gary]
csma: is it possible to map BLD to CL?
15:18:32 [Gary]
chrisw: we welcome help from CL community to do so
15:19:08 [csma]
next item
15:19:22 [csma]
zakim, take up item 4
15:19:22 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "Action review" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:23:18 [ChanghaiKe]
ChanghaiKe has joined #rif
15:23:30 [Gary]
(procedural issues discerning closed actions from F2F minutes)
15:24:19 [Gary]
s/actions and issues/actions
15:26:27 [ChrisW]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:26:27 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Hassan (muted), josb, csma, Mike_Dean, [NRCC], ChrisW, Sandro, ChanghaiKe, Gary, AxelPolleres
15:26:30 [AxelPolleres]
15:26:37 [ChrisW]
zakim, nrcc is Harold
15:26:37 [Zakim]
+Harold; got it
15:27:50 [Gary]
dates for F2F12 in Portland, OR, US: Jan 8,9 or Jan 15,16 2009 (both Thurs, Fri)
15:28:49 [Gary]
(other dates possible - at the moment only Tuesdays are bad)
15:29:22 [sandro]
Then please include Wednesdays, Gary....
15:29:35 [sandro]
and give at least one more week, I think.
15:30:29 [sandro]
ChrisW, I've fixed the various formal scribe problems in Day 2, so the minutes are pretty, even if they might still be wrong, etc.
15:30:30 [Gary]
ok, I'll need to pencil those in first -- will send email later today
15:30:34 [AxelPolleres]
15:30:40 [sandro]
thanks, Gary
15:31:18 [Zakim]
15:32:39 [Gary]
Axel: only strict safety need be defined
15:32:51 [Gary]
harold: weak safety now obsolete
15:33:14 [Gary]
axel: weak safety has some advantages, but harder to specify, so we drop it
15:35:04 [Gary]
hassan: XML<->PS translator work on hold now
15:35:08 [Harold]
15:35:28 [csma]
ack harold
15:35:49 [Gary]
harold: current translator uses old XML syntax
15:36:45 [Gary]
hassan: will update to latest pending agreement on some emailed issues
15:37:06 [DaveReynolds]
DaveReynolds has joined #rif
15:37:52 [Harold]
The BLD LC PS frontend of Hassan's current tool is fine.
15:38:07 [Harold]
The backend still is pre-LC.
15:38:42 [Zakim]
15:38:47 [Harold]
<side> is still wrongly used instead of <left>, <right>.
15:39:24 [sandro]
Yes, of course we CAN do keyword-by-keyword improvements. Iterative design works damn well.
15:40:00 [Gary]
hassan: hopes to do new release by week's end
15:40:24 [Zakim]
15:40:25 [Gary]
csma: all please email hassan with any issues
15:40:39 [Harold]
Stella already translated
15:42:52 [ChrisW]
zakim, list agenda
15:42:52 [Zakim]
I see 6 items remaining on the agenda:
15:42:53 [Zakim]
1. Admin [from ChrisW]
15:42:53 [Zakim]
4. Action review [from ChrisW]
15:42:54 [Zakim]
5. F2F11 debrief [from ChrisW]
15:42:54 [Zakim]
6. Test cases [from ChrisW]
15:42:55 [Zakim]
7. AOB [from ChrisW]
15:42:55 [Zakim]
8. PICK SCRIBE [from ChrisW]
15:42:59 [csma]
zakim, take up item 5
15:42:59 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "F2F11 debrief" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:43:16 [Hassan]
Sandro: my point was not against iterative design (thanks for explaining though!) - it was about distracting the implementation effort from focusing on importing decisions
15:43:51 [Hassan]
how much?
15:43:58 [Gary]
and it was the best steak ever!
15:44:04 [csma]
15:44:04 [ChrisW]
15:44:31 [Gary]
chrisw: recaps F2F11 highlights
15:44:51 [Gary]
... accepted many test cases
15:45:28 [Gary]
... delay next UCR WD
15:46:01 [Gary]
... add usage for rdf:text for i18n
15:46:43 [Gary]
... drop roundtripping paragraph
15:47:25 [Gary]
... metadata should be preserved where possible
15:47:41 [Gary]
... no formal definition of profiles
15:48:04 [Gary]
... all RIF dialects SHOULD extend Core
15:49:14 [sandro]
csma: quoting RFC-2119: 3. SHOULD This word, or the adjective "RECOMMENDED", mean that there
15:49:14 [sandro]
may exist valid reasons in particular circumstances to ignore a
15:49:14 [sandro]
particular item, but the full implications must be understood and
15:49:14 [sandro]
carefully weighed before choosing a different course.
15:50:00 [Gary]
... external data model discussion led to some actions to propose a strawman
15:51:18 [Gary]
... discuss semantics of PRD conditions - should simplify by using more from the semantic structure
15:51:58 [Gary]
... external frames - increased understanding but didn't change anything
15:54:20 [Gary]
... agreed on equality in condition in Core, other Core issues
15:55:04 [Gary]
... discussed possible External(ATOMIC)
15:55:23 [Hassan]
Harold (and others regarding side/side vs. left/right): check out yoyr email.
15:55:33 [Hassan]
15:55:46 [sandro]
sandro has joined #rif
15:56:52 [Gary]
... parallel sessions for PRD and FLD
15:57:23 [ChrisW]
sandro - is not permitted
15:57:29 [Gary]
csma: recaps PRD breakout - no-repeat for conflict resolution
15:58:45 [ChanghaiKe]
I have added: conflict resolution strategy could be additional XML tags, along with the rules. There can be several strategies like RETE, sequential, etc.
15:58:49 [sandro]
fixed, Chris. I guess I'll paste it into F2F11-Day2 minutes?
15:58:59 [ChrisW]
15:59:07 [Gary]
... agreed on overall semantic framework but the details seem to vary by engine
15:59:36 [Gary]
... but at least we can start to attack the details
16:00:43 [Gary]
Changhai: we need syntax to specify the conflict resolution
16:01:26 [Gary]
ChrisW: recaps FLD breakout
16:01:33 [Gary]
... add modules
16:02:22 [Gary]
I seem to recall MK will add aggregates to FLD
16:02:47 [Gary]
ChrisW: bug fix with defn of entailment
16:03:15 [Gary]
... negative guards permit entailment of disjunctive info
16:03:27 [josb]
16:03:32 [csma]
Gary: aggregates are something we agreed we would take some times to discuss during F2F11, but we could not find the time
16:04:45 [Gary]
... will be more discussion about negative guards
16:05:23 [Gary]
... addressed some DTB editors notes
16:05:37 [Gary]
csma: PRD breakout on actions
16:06:23 [Gary]
... 3 proposals for Do (?var), New, Retract/Remove/Erase object
16:09:40 [Gary]
csma: doc plans
16:10:15 [Gary]
... PRD, DTB, BLD, FLD - frozen in 1 month
16:10:37 [Gary]
... need DTB to LC before BLD to CR
16:11:18 [Zakim]
16:12:41 [Gary]
for more detail on F2F11, please see minutes - available now
16:13:16 [ChrisW]
+1 adjourn
16:13:21 [josb]
+1 adjourn :)
16:13:50 [ChrisW]
what is this thing he calls documentation?
16:14:08 [Hassan]
ChrisW: :-P
16:14:25 [Zakim]
16:14:45 [DaveReynolds]
16:14:48 [Zakim]
16:14:50 [Zakim]
16:14:50 [Zakim]
16:14:55 [ChrisW]
zakim, list attendees
16:14:55 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been +39.047.101.aaaa, Hassan, Mike_Dean, josb, csma, ChrisW, Sandro, Gary, ChanghaiKe, AxelPolleres, Harold, DaveReynolds
16:14:57 [ChanghaiKe]
16:14:58 [Zakim]
16:15:06 [Zakim]
16:15:26 [ChrisW]
Regrets: LeoraMorgenstern MichaelKifer AdrianPaschke MohamedZergaoui
16:15:40 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:15:40 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ChrisW
16:16:27 [Zakim]
16:16:34 [ChrisW]
zakim, who is on the phone?
16:16:34 [Zakim]
On the phone I see csma, ChrisW, Sandro
16:16:52 [Gary]
is there a PRD telecon?
16:17:14 [Gary]
16:18:58 [Zakim]
16:18:59 [Zakim]
16:18:59 [Zakim]
16:18:59 [Zakim]
SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
16:19:01 [Zakim]
Attendees were +39.047.101.aaaa, Hassan, Mike_Dean, josb, csma, ChrisW, Sandro, Gary, ChanghaiKe, AxelPolleres, Harold, DaveReynolds
16:41:44 [csma]
csma has left #rif
17:06:45 [sandro]
sandro has joined #rif