14:44:34 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rif
14:44:34 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/09/30-rif-irc
14:44:41 <ChrisW> zakim, list agenda
14:44:41 <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
14:44:42 <Zakim> 9. AOB [from ChrisW]
14:44:47 <ChrisW> zakim, clear agenda
14:44:47 <Zakim> agenda cleared
14:44:52 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
14:44:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/09/30-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
14:45:07 <ChrisW> Meeting: RIF Telecon 30 Sep 08
14:45:14 <csma> Meeting
14:45:21 <csma> Ooops
14:45:43 <ChrisW> Christian de Sainte Marie
14:45:45 <ChrisW> Chair: Christian de Sainte Marie
14:46:00 <ChrisW> did yuou get a scribe?
14:46:13 <ChrisW> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Sep/0205.html
14:46:28 <ChrisW> ChrisW has changed the topic to: 30 Sept RIF telecon agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Sep/0205.html
14:46:37 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make logs public
14:46:55 <ChrisW> agenda+ Admin
14:47:00 <ChrisW> agenda+ Liason
14:47:06 <ChrisW> agenda+ Public comments
14:47:12 <ChrisW> agenda+ Action review
14:47:20 <ChrisW> agenda+ F2F11 debrief
14:47:31 <ChrisW> agenda+ Test cases
14:47:34 <ChrisW> agenda+ AOB
14:47:46 <ChrisW> agenda+ PICK SCRIBE
15:00:24 <Hassan> Hassan has joined #rif
15:00:40 <Harold> Harold has joined #rif
15:00:41 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
15:00:52 <Zakim> +??P1
15:01:07 <mdean> mdean has joined #rif
15:01:10 <Hassan> zakim, ??P1 is me
15:01:16 <Zakim> + +39.047.101.aaaa
15:01:19 <Zakim> +Hassan; got it
15:01:24 <josb> josb has joined #rif
15:01:27 <Zakim> +??P19
15:01:52 <Zakim> +Mike_Dean
15:02:01 <csma> zakim, ??P19 is me
15:02:05 <Zakim> +csma; got it
15:02:10 <Zakim> +[NRCC]
15:02:40 <Zakim> +[IBM]
15:02:49 <ChrisW> zakim, ibm is temporarily me
15:02:49 <Zakim> +ChrisW; got it
15:02:52 <Zakim> +Sandro
15:04:03 <Zakim> +??P39
15:05:10 <csma> Zakim, ??P39 is me
15:05:10 <Zakim> +csma; got it
15:06:02 <Zakim> +Gary
15:06:34 <csma> scribe: Gary Hallmark
15:06:37 <Hassan> Thanks Gary! :-)
15:06:58 <ChanghaiKe> ChanghaiKe has joined #rif
15:08:39 <GaryHallmark> GaryHallmark has joined #rif
15:08:43 <csma> scribenick: GaryHallmark
15:08:56 <csma> agendum admin
15:09:05 <csma> next item
15:09:11 <csma> next item
15:09:19 <csma> zakim, take up agendum 2
15:09:19 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Liason" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:09:40 <ChrisW> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:09:40 <Zakim> On the phone I see Hassan (muted), josb, csma, Mike_Dean, [NRCC], ChrisW, Sandro, csma.a, Gary
15:10:12 <GaryHallmark> csma: PRR rechartered
15:10:16 <ChrisW> who is csma.a? (or csma)?
15:11:07 <ChanghaiKe> Hi, I'm Changhai
15:11:11 <ChrisW> zakim, mute csma.a
15:11:11 <Zakim> csma.a should now be muted
15:11:35 <ChrisW> zakim, unmute csma.a
15:11:37 <Zakim> csma.a should no longer be muted
15:11:43 <ChrisW> zakim, csma.a is ChanghaiKe
15:11:43 <Zakim> +ChanghaiKe; got it
15:11:48 <Gary> Gary has joined #rif
15:11:58 <csma> next item
15:12:06 <ChrisW> zakim, take up item 3
15:12:06 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Public comments" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:12:37 <Gary> ScribeNick: Gary
15:12:42 <AxelPolleres> AxelPolleres has joined #rif
15:13:47 <Gary> chrisw: pls check over Chris' responses to public comments
15:14:18 <Harold> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Response_to_OK
15:14:57 <Zakim> +??P8
15:15:04 <Gary> harold: seeks feedback on adding common logic references 
15:15:47 <Gary> Chrisw: common logic community doesn't care so much for BLD
15:17:07 <Gary> ... not politics, just "scientific" disagreement
15:18:18 <Gary> csma: is it possible to map BLD to CL?
15:18:32 <Gary> chrisw: we welcome help from CL community to do so
15:19:08 <csma> next item
15:19:22 <csma> zakim, take up item 4
15:19:22 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Action review" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:23:18 <ChanghaiKe> ChanghaiKe has joined #rif
15:23:30 <Gary> (procedural issues discerning closed actions from F2F minutes)
15:24:19 <Gary> s/actions and issues/actions
15:26:27 <ChrisW> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:26:27 <Zakim> On the phone I see Hassan (muted), josb, csma, Mike_Dean, [NRCC], ChrisW, Sandro, ChanghaiKe, Gary, AxelPolleres
15:26:30 <AxelPolleres> continued
15:26:37 <ChrisW> zakim, nrcc is Harold
15:26:37 <Zakim> +Harold; got it
15:27:50 <Gary> dates for F2F12 in Portland, OR, US: Jan 8,9 or Jan 15,16 2009 (both Thurs, Fri)
15:28:49 <Gary> (other dates possible - at the moment only Tuesdays are bad)
15:29:22 <sandro> Then please include Wednesdays, Gary....
15:29:35 <sandro> and give at least one more week, I think.
15:30:29 <sandro> ChrisW, I've fixed the various formal scribe problems in Day 2, so the minutes are pretty, even if they might still be wrong, etc.
15:30:30 <Gary> ok, I'll need to pencil those in first -- will send email later today
15:30:34 <AxelPolleres> continued
15:30:40 <sandro> thanks, Gary 
15:30:50 <AxelPolleres> continued
15:31:18 <Zakim> -Mike_Dean
15:32:39 <Gary> Axel: only strict safety need be defined
15:32:51 <Gary> harold: weak safety now obsolete
15:33:14 <Gary> axel: weak safety has some advantages, but harder to specify, so we drop it
15:35:04 <Gary> hassan: XML<->PS translator work on hold now
15:35:08 <Harold> q+
15:35:28 <csma> ack harold
15:35:49 <Gary> harold: current translator uses old XML syntax
15:36:45 <Gary> hassan: will update to latest pending agreement on some emailed issues
15:37:06 <DaveReynolds> DaveReynolds has joined #rif
15:37:52 <Harold> The BLD LC PS frontend of Hassan's current tool is fine.
15:38:07 <Harold> The backend still is pre-LC.
15:38:42 <Zakim> +??P10
15:38:47 <Harold> <side> is still wrongly used instead of <left>, <right>.
15:39:24 <sandro> Yes, of course we CAN do keyword-by-keyword improvements.   Iterative design works damn well.
15:40:00 <Gary> hassan: hopes to do new release by week's end
15:40:24 <Zakim> +Mike_Dean
15:40:25 <Gary> csma: all please email hassan with any issues
15:40:39 <Harold> Stella already translated http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Factorial_Functional
15:42:52 <ChrisW> zakim, list agenda
15:42:52 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda:
15:42:53 <Zakim> 1. Admin [from ChrisW]
15:42:53 <Zakim> 4. Action review [from ChrisW]
15:42:54 <Zakim> 5. F2F11 debrief [from ChrisW]
15:42:54 <Zakim> 6. Test cases [from ChrisW]
15:42:55 <Zakim> 7. AOB [from ChrisW]
15:42:55 <Zakim> 8. PICK SCRIBE [from ChrisW]
15:42:59 <csma> zakim, take up item 5
15:42:59 <Zakim> agendum 5. "F2F11 debrief" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:43:16 <Hassan> Sandro: my point was not against iterative design (thanks for explaining though!) - it was about distracting the implementation effort from focusing on importing decisions
15:43:51 <Hassan> how much?
15:43:58 <Gary> and it was the best steak ever!
15:44:04 <csma> 450
15:44:04 <ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/meeting/2008-09-26
15:44:31 <Gary> chrisw: recaps F2F11 highlights
15:44:51 <Gary> ... accepted many test cases
15:45:28 <Gary> ... delay next UCR WD
15:46:01 <Gary> ... add usage for rdf:text for i18n
15:46:43 <Gary> ... drop roundtripping paragraph
15:47:25 <Gary> ... metadata should be preserved where possible
15:47:41 <Gary> ... no formal definition of profiles
15:48:04 <Gary> ... all RIF dialects SHOULD extend Core
15:49:14 <sandro> csma: quoting RFC-2119: 3. SHOULD   This word, or the adjective "RECOMMENDED", mean that there
15:49:14 <sandro>    may exist valid reasons in particular circumstances to ignore a
15:49:14 <sandro>    particular item, but the full implications must be understood and
15:49:14 <sandro>    carefully weighed before choosing a different course.
15:50:00 <Gary> ... external data model discussion led to some actions to propose a strawman
15:51:18 <Gary> ... discuss semantics of PRD conditions - should simplify by using more from the semantic structure
15:51:58 <Gary> ... external frames - increased understanding but didn't change anything
15:54:20 <Gary> ... agreed on equality in condition in Core, other Core issues
15:55:04 <Gary> ... discussed possible External(ATOMIC)
15:55:23 <Hassan> Harold (and others regarding side/side vs. left/right): check out yoyr email.
15:55:33 <Hassan> s/yoyr/your/
15:55:46 <sandro> sandro has joined #rif
15:56:52 <Gary> ... parallel sessions for PRD and FLD
15:57:23 <ChrisW> sandro - http://www.w3.org/2008/09/27-fld-irc is not permitted
15:57:29 <Gary> csma: recaps PRD breakout - no-repeat for conflict resolution
15:58:45 <ChanghaiKe> I have added: conflict resolution strategy could be additional XML tags, along with the rules. There can be several strategies like RETE, sequential, etc.
15:58:49 <sandro> fixed, Chris.   I guess I'll paste it into F2F11-Day2 minutes?
15:58:59 <ChrisW> ok
15:59:07 <Gary> ... agreed on overall semantic framework but the details seem to vary by engine 
15:59:36 <Gary> ... but at least we can start to attack the details
16:00:43 <Gary> Changhai: we need syntax to specify the conflict resolution 
16:01:26 <Gary> ChrisW: recaps FLD breakout
16:01:33 <Gary> ... add modules
16:02:22 <Gary> I seem to recall MK will add aggregates to FLD
16:02:47 <Gary> ChrisW: bug fix with defn of entailment
16:03:15 <Gary> ... negative guards permit entailment of disjunctive info
16:03:27 <josb> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Disjunctive_Information_from_Negative_Guards
16:03:32 <csma> Gary: aggregates are something we agreed we would take some times to discuss during F2F11, but we could not find the time
16:04:45 <Gary> ... will be more discussion about negative guards
16:05:23 <Gary> ... addressed some DTB editors notes
16:05:37 <Gary> csma: PRD breakout on actions
16:06:23 <Gary> ... 3 proposals for Do (?var), New, Retract/Remove/Erase object
16:09:40 <Gary> csma: doc plans
16:10:15 <Gary> ... PRD, DTB, BLD, FLD - frozen in 1 month
16:10:37 <Gary> ... need DTB to LC before BLD to CR
16:11:18 <Zakim> -AxelPolleres
16:12:41 <Gary> for more detail on F2F11, please see minutes - available now
16:13:16 <ChrisW> +1 adjourn
16:13:21 <josb> +1 adjourn :)
16:13:50 <ChrisW> what is this thing he calls documentation?
16:14:08 <Hassan> ChrisW: :-P
16:14:25 <Zakim> -josb
16:14:45 <DaveReynolds> bye
16:14:48 <Zakim> -DaveReynolds
16:14:50 <Zakim> -Harold
16:14:50 <Zakim> -Hassan
16:14:55 <ChrisW> zakim, list attendees
16:14:55 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been +39.047.101.aaaa, Hassan, Mike_Dean, josb, csma, ChrisW, Sandro, Gary, ChanghaiKe, AxelPolleres, Harold, DaveReynolds
16:14:57 <ChanghaiKe> bye
16:14:58 <Zakim> -Mike_Dean
16:15:06 <Zakim> -ChanghaiKe
16:15:26 <ChrisW> Regrets: LeoraMorgenstern MichaelKifer AdrianPaschke MohamedZergaoui
16:15:40 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
16:15:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/09/30-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
16:16:27 <Zakim> -Gary
16:16:34 <ChrisW> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:16:34 <Zakim> On the phone I see csma, ChrisW, Sandro
16:16:52 <Gary> is there a PRD telecon?
16:17:14 <Gary> christian?
16:18:58 <Zakim> -Sandro
16:18:59 <Zakim> -ChrisW
16:18:59 <Zakim> -csma
16:18:59 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
16:19:01 <Zakim> Attendees were +39.047.101.aaaa, Hassan, Mike_Dean, josb, csma, ChrisW, Sandro, Gary, ChanghaiKe, AxelPolleres, Harold, DaveReynolds
16:41:44 <csma> csma has left #rif
17:06:45 <sandro> sandro has joined #rif