14:35:05 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #backplane
14:35:05 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/09/30-backplane-irc
14:35:10 <Charlie> rrsagent, make logs public
14:36:18 <Charlie> Meeting: Backplane XG Teleconference
14:36:21 <Charlie> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-app-backplane/2008Sep/0019.html
14:36:25 <Charlie> Regrets: Kevin
14:51:41 <oedipus> oedipus has joined #backplane
14:52:23 <oedipus> Scribe: Gregory
14:52:27 <oedipus> ScribeNick: oedipus
14:52:32 <oedipus> Previous: http://www.w3.org/2008/09/23-backplane-minutes.html
14:52:33 <Charlie> cool...thanks!
14:52:38 <oedipus> Regrets: Kevin
14:52:42 <oedipus> Chair: Charlie
14:52:47 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
14:52:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/09/30-backplane-minutes.html oedipus
14:54:04 <oedipus> no problem scribing -- i need to email you as i can't make it to TPAC due to medical situation, but still want to do what i can do make the demo accessible (or at least expose the platform through which it can be made accessible
14:54:22 <Charlie> ok, that would be great
14:54:32 <Charlie> jack can't be there either so i'm going to talk about the SMIL stuff for him
14:54:52 <oedipus> PFWG really wants to meet with RWAB
14:54:59 <Charlie> that's good
14:55:12 <Charlie> (some others aren't so keen)
14:55:29 <oedipus> did al send you his "topic list"?  
14:55:41 <Charlie> not yet
14:55:49 <oedipus> will remind him...
14:55:51 <Charlie> he did mention that tuesday after lunch would be best time
14:55:52 <Charlie> k, thx
14:56:10 <oedipus> i'd like to pin PF down and get RWAB on the F2F schedule
14:56:29 <Charlie> k
14:56:53 <Charlie> is the pdf format stuff i sent ok for you to read?
14:57:02 <Charlie> i haven' t put into html yet
14:57:46 <Zakim> INC_RWAB()11:00AM has now started
14:57:53 <Zakim> +[IBM]
14:57:57 <Charlie> zakim, [IBM] is Charlie
14:57:57 <Zakim> +Charlie; got it
14:58:16 <jackjansen> jackjansen has joined #backplane
14:58:25 <oedipus> did you generate tagged PDF? (http://www.adobe.com/enterprise/accessibility/pdfs/acro7_pg_ue.pdf)
14:58:41 <Charlie> nope
14:58:45 <Charlie> will check that out
14:58:53 <Charlie> is that aria tagged?
14:59:06 <oedipus> no, native adobe tagging
14:59:10 <Charlie> oh, ok
14:59:14 <oedipus> zakim, code?
14:59:14 <Zakim> the conference code is 7922 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), oedipus
14:59:44 <unl> unl has joined #backplane
14:59:54 <oedipus> trackbot, start telcon
15:00:06 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita
15:01:06 <oedipus> scribe & participant's cheat sheet: http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/IG/wiki/CheatSheet
15:01:42 <oedipus> trackbot, start telcon rwab
15:01:47 <Zakim> +??P24
15:02:09 <oedipus> zakim, ??P24 is Jack_J
15:02:14 <Zakim> +Jack_J; got it
15:02:25 <oedipus> zakim, mute Jack_J
15:02:25 <Zakim> Jack_J should now be muted
15:02:30 <oedipus> zakim, unmute Jack_J
15:02:30 <Zakim> Jack_J should no longer be muted
15:02:33 <Zakim> +unl
15:03:05 <oedipus> trackbot users' guide: http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc
15:04:01 <oedipus> TOPIC: Beginnings, Announcements, Etc.
15:05:01 <unl> zakim, mute me
15:05:01 <Zakim> unl should now be muted
15:05:22 <oedipus> CW: web conference - www.webdialogs.com/join
15:05:29 <unl> no
15:05:33 <Charlie> meeting code 801862
15:07:24 <oedipus> CW: let's begin - anouncements, agenda adenda?
15:08:03 <oedipus> TOPIC: TPAC Presentation
15:08:18 <oedipus> CW: title not finalized
15:08:54 <jackjansen> q+ to ask what "RIA" is, and does the audience know?
15:09:10 <oedipus> CW: viewed as XG talk on state-of-art -- gave panel discussion in 2006, want to update; may be too inward looking; XG process not relevant - focus on bigger challanges on building better web apps using W3C recs to do that
15:09:34 <oedipus> CW: opportunity to use W3C techs to perform demo 
15:09:53 <oedipus> CW: goal is use of w3c standards
15:10:00 <oedipus> GJR: yes, that makes sense to me
15:10:10 <oedipus> JJ: makes sense to me, too
15:10:32 <John_Boyer> John_Boyer has joined #backplane
15:10:37 <oedipus> CW: modularity and abstraction in title - want to stress working together and working across working groups
15:11:18 <oedipus> CW: open RIA - positioning w3c frameworks to others; model comes down to abstraction, need final puch and are we catching themes we need to cover
15:11:40 <Zakim> +John_Boyer
15:13:01 <oedipus> CW: step back and broaden discussion -- threads from W3C standard to open libraries
15:13:42 <oedipus> CW: second page: have opportunity to pull techs together... couple of things to do: ..." -- focus on what we've done (alligning declarative and data models)
15:14:14 <oedipus> CW: place for JB to address M12n; streamlined syntax for XForms
15:14:56 <oedipus> CW: 2 categories of themes: modularity and abstraction (set of underlying concepts that provide bridges forward and backwards
15:15:16 <oedipus> CW: from XG PoV, how we are using these aspects to provide concrete examples
15:16:07 <oedipus> CW: data-oriented backplane (data as API) - SMIL example (can run live); simple VoiceXML (uses same data model); and ODF Dojo+XHTML (using data model to bridge tech)
15:16:18 <oedipus> CW: model-link coordination pattern from JJ's paper
15:16:56 <jackjansen> q-
15:17:13 <oedipus> CW: model view backplane: leveraging abstracts as wrapper around framework specific widgets (YUI calendar control) - how generic infrastructure can be bound to provide rich experience, and accessibility
15:17:36 <oedipus> CW: component-free APIs; modularity; simple examples; what will do when stuff comes together
15:17:40 <oedipus> JB: great overview
15:18:08 <oedipus> JB: data backplane - dojo and XHTML -- how you are doing something; in data backplane category because of what XG is doing now
15:18:26 <oedipus> JB: call ODF+XHTML through Dojo and put in MVC 
15:19:07 <oedipus> JB: mixing 2 data collections: ODF and XHTML -- currently through data layer only; data level integration can be shown now - ODF and XForms can potentially share common model; promote down one level
15:19:18 <oedipus> CW: gladly add that -- patent issues?
15:19:45 <oedipus> CW: was ODF and XHTML - scrubbed because dojo surface control without triggering IPR concerns
15:20:09 <oedipus> JB: papers just finished addressed making a form and an ODF document work together through XForms model
15:20:16 <oedipus> CW: like to talk about that more offline
15:20:40 <oedipus> JB: both views shown to viewer at same time; current limitations in ODF led to one view at a time
15:20:49 <oedipus> CW: better example, but scrubbed due to IPR concerns
15:21:05 <oedipus> CW: ODF in broader community as namespace that makes sense for interactive documents
15:22:28 <oedipus> JJ: acronyms - start off with screen shots of vague application sketches of types of things we want to do - even if don't know what ARIA, dojo, or SMIL is, can still understand example
15:22:39 <oedipus> CW: what about flipping it around?  start with examples?
15:23:02 <oedipus> CW: show stuff happening then examine internal structure; if want to motivate internal structure, maybe that first
15:23:30 <oedipus> JJ: demo will be good -- whet appetite up front with frame-of-reference: why combine all technologies in first place?
15:24:00 <oedipus> CW: bunch of diff techs coming into play - want to share info richly across them; then loop back and address issues that have arisen and what we are doing to address them
15:24:27 <oedipus> JJ: give the 300,000 foot overview - goals in slide from internal PoV - why do we want a framework needs to be explained
15:25:01 <oedipus> CW: here is internal diagram of page - will probably overwhelm; whet appetite first good strategy
15:25:25 <oedipus> CW: simplify stage: remove sub-bullets, or made multiple slides might help
15:25:39 <oedipus> CW: dig into each category - what is common infrastructure
15:26:47 <oedipus> CW: chart - placeholder?  say something about forms modularization
15:26:50 <oedipus> q+
15:27:10 <oedipus> CW: might be able to do in way that doesn't look like we are planning world domination
15:27:17 <oedipus> JB: have to think about that for a while
15:27:23 <oedipus> CW: discussion about modules
15:27:32 <oedipus> CW: can elaborate as want
15:28:18 <oedipus> GJR: modularization plans for XML Events
15:28:43 <oedipus> CW: markB's google maps example if not using in different presentation
15:29:06 <oedipus> CW: jack's example, loan form, dojo/xhtml example 
15:29:20 <oedipus> CW: use data model to present other parts of page
15:29:48 <oedipus> CW: same loan form - calendar, abstract interaction control
15:30:09 <oedipus> CW: interface - control widgets controlling data binding and events lifecycle for events
15:30:26 <oedipus> CW: bridging pattern - different from native pattern
15:30:38 <oedipus> CW: accessibility segment
15:30:46 <oedipus> GJR: will work on that with whomever whenever
15:31:52 <oedipus> CW: go back to title page - 1) what type of apps building? (2) stuff using exists (3) relationship between XG and WGs - terminal report from XG to WG usual end product (4) building working examples to test in languages
15:32:08 <oedipus> TOPIC: Wordsmithing Presentation Title
15:32:14 <oedipus> CW: any ideas?
15:32:42 <oedipus> CW: how much detail on m12n and abstraction and accessibility
15:33:15 <oedipus> JJ: don't like RIA in title - had to look up with Google - should have been able to guess, i guess, but would spell it out (at very least) and tersify title
15:33:32 <oedipus> JJ: XG Views on Rich Web Applications Backplane
15:33:36 <oedipus> CW: trying to say too much
15:33:56 <oedipus> JJ: need title that will (a) draw people and (b) keep them in room
15:34:05 <oedipus> JB: Open Standards for Rich Web Applications
15:34:46 <oedipus> CW: modularity point is missed more generally - something puchnier than m12n - challange audience to do better if communicate and share technology, but concrete work that needs to occur
15:34:55 <oedipus> JJ: "Eating Each Others' Dog Food"
15:35:10 <oedipus> JB: "How to Eat Dog Food and Like It, Too
15:35:24 <oedipus> CW: something punchy and catchy -
15:35:32 <oedipus> q?
15:36:06 <oedipus> CW: common architecture; implementing common architecture; how to extend
15:36:18 <oedipus> CW: JB how much you want to say about m12n or abstraction?
15:36:24 <oedipus> JB: have 3 or 4 slides only
15:36:50 <oedipus> JB: pitch makes sense to me, but i know the 20 acronyms
15:37:06 <oedipus> CW: abstraction/streamlined syntax 
15:37:21 <oedipus> JB: going to address in my slides; thomas working on making something demonstrable
15:37:26 <oedipus> CW: will have something running
15:37:48 <oedipus> JB: another example of making it work together - open module AND streamlined
15:38:02 <oedipus> CW: careful not to presume that everyone bought into everything
15:38:21 <oedipus> CW: another type of backplane - a bridging backplane 
15:38:32 <oedipus> JB: adaptation on-ramp for full set of modules
15:38:59 <oedipus> JB: segues nicely into examples you have - separate models that can be adopted into many forms
15:40:16 <oedipus> JB: 3-fold way of problem xforms adoption problem: 1) declarative AJAX programming; 2) M12n; 3) abstraction/streamlining for bridging syntax; circle back to modeling layer - abstract layer just another model; as complexity arises, can start to pull in modules without having to worry about other modules and "rip-and-replace"
15:40:22 <oedipus> CW: tried to express in chart
15:40:33 <oedipus> CW: can turn to examples - start with streamline or conclude with it
15:40:59 <oedipus> JB: even if start with it to show "here is abstraction layer we got to work with attributes familiar upon which we layered semantics"
15:41:42 <oedipus> JB: circling discussion back that abstraction just another module that authors can adopt - segue into other examples which suppose have non-attribute modules - what cool things could you do with them?  why use them? advantages, etc.
15:42:00 <oedipus> CW: good argument for starting with attributes model, then data model, then close-ups
15:43:07 <oedipus> GJR: m12n from XHTML2 - XML Events to be modularized to Event Module, Handler Module and Script Module
15:43:52 <oedipus> GJR: as far as accessibility: rule number 1 is follow the rules and implement to standards - gain for accessiblity is a commmon framework and consistency of expectations
15:44:38 <oedipus> GJR: start with what is built in, because assistive techs need assistance
15:44:58 <oedipus> GJR: common document architectures to work off of - modularization model easier to support
15:45:05 <oedipus> CW: better places to attach
15:45:28 <oedipus> GJR: separting out what has native accessibility support and what doesn't and how it can be provided
15:46:58 <oedipus> GJR: "if you build something from the inside out, you'll have no difficulty penetrating from the outside in"
15:47:11 <oedipus> TOPIC: Review of TPAC Meetings
15:48:00 <oedipus> CW: Al Gilman - tuesday after lunch slot with PF at TPAC
15:48:22 <oedipus> CW: moday at 4 with MMI - Voice example should trigger discussion - m12n, streamlining and ubiquity in general
15:48:33 <oedipus> CW: Dave Raggett and UbiWeb on wednesday
15:48:41 <oedipus> CW: HTML and Web Apps?
15:48:53 <oedipus> JB: had first meeting with Chris Wilson and meeting with him tomorrow
15:49:05 <oedipus> JB: WebApps group categorically refused to meet with us
15:49:42 <oedipus> GJR: PF should also talk with Forms WG about moving forward on forms in HTML5
15:50:16 <oedipus> JB: role emerging for web apps group is strategic, but currently disconnected; hoping that TPAC presentations will help sway some
15:50:28 <oedipus> CW: slot on Wednesday can address issues 
15:51:04 <oedipus> JB: step 1: set of techs can deliver cross-browser using AJAX library; strategic play for WebApps to discuss APIs that can deliver this strategy and why they should care
15:51:27 <oedipus> CW: at TPAC 2006, WebApps jumped up to take lead on "next steps"
15:52:15 <oedipus> CW: discuss behavioral/functional PoV
15:53:09 <oedipus> JB: doing same thing as HTML5, but at javascript level - request APIs - what will be implemented in next 3 months for UA implementation; eating feed corn -- need to try and get roadmap or long-term goals
15:53:44 <Zakim> -John_Boyer
15:53:47 <Zakim> -Jack_J
15:53:49 <Zakim> -Charlie
15:53:50 <oedipus> CW: will chat with JB about middle section; will chat with GJR on accessibility once delivers comments on demo
15:53:53 <Zakim> -unl
15:53:56 <oedipus> ADJOURNED
15:54:01 <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita
15:54:02 <Zakim> INC_RWAB()11:00AM has ended
15:54:03 <Zakim> Attendees were Charlie, Gregory_Rosmaita, Jack_J, unl, John_Boyer
15:54:09 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
15:54:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/09/30-backplane-minutes.html oedipus
15:57:28 <oedipus> ACTION: Gregory - review CW's proposed presentation and suggest accessibility additions/suggestions
15:57:32 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
15:57:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/09/30-backplane-minutes.html oedipus
16:08:14 <oedipus> rrsagent, please part
16:08:14 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/30-backplane-actions.rdf :
16:08:14 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Gregory - review CW's proposed presentation and suggest accessibility additions/suggestions [1]
16:08:14 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/30-backplane-irc#T15-57-28