IRC log of wam on 2008-09-25

Timestamps are in UTC.

11:01:47 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #wam

11:01:47 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/09/25-wam-irc

11:02:26 [Zakim]

+??P12

11:03:22 [Zakim]

+Caroline

11:03:26 [Zakim]

+Bryan_Sullivan

11:03:33 [ArtB]

zakim, ??P12 is Marcos

11:03:33 [Zakim]

+Marcos; got it

11:03:46 [ArtB]

zakim, Caroline is Benoit

11:03:46 [Zakim]

+Benoit; got it

11:04:22 [ArtB]

Meeting: Widgets Voice Conference

11:04:28 [ArtB]

Date: 25 September 2008

11:04:32 [ArtB]

Chair: Art

11:04:33 [Benoit]

Benoit has joined #wam

11:04:34 [ArtB]

Scribe: Art

11:04:40 [ArtB]

ScribeNick: ArtB

11:04:50 [ArtB]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2008JulSep/0715.html

11:05:09 [ArtB]

Regrets: Arve, Nick, David, Claudio

11:05:36 [ArtB]

Present: Art, Bryan, Marcos, Thomas, Benoit, Mark

11:05:46 [tlr]

ScribeNick: tlr

11:06:24 [tlr]

topic: Announcements

11:06:31 [tlr]

artb: reminder, go ahead and register for TPAC

11:06:44 [ArtB]

AB: registration list: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35125/TPAC2008/registrants#webapps

11:06:47 [tlr]

benoit: I think I'm registered

11:06:54 [tlr]

artb: Marc, Claudio, most of the usual suspects are registered

11:07:02 [tlr]

... obvious omissions at this point are the OMTP folks ...

11:07:13 [tlr]

... about 19 people registered as members of the WG ...

11:07:23 [tlr]

... will split up meeting; not everybody will attend widget part ...

11:07:27 [tlr]

benoit: half/half?

11:07:31 [tlr]

artb: unlikely. 90/10

11:07:40 [tlr]

... interested in any discussions related to access-control and xhr2 specs ..

11:07:55 [tlr]

... maybe a big joint meeting for that discussion ...

11:08:01 [tlr]

... let's see how things unfold over the next few weeks ...

11:08:14 [tlr]

... also, Larry Masinter will be attending the meeting ...

11:08:20 [tlr]

... registered as observer for Tuesday ...

11:08:46 [tlr]

... believe that Larry is member of TAG ...

11:09:58 [tlr]

... any other announcements?

11:10:19 [tlr]

topic: Widgets core API and events status

11:10:27 [tlr]

per http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/#Membership, Larry Masinter is not a member of the TAG

11:10:36 [tlr]

artb: marcos, can you give us any update?

11:10:39 [tlr]

marcos: nope

11:10:49 [tlr]

artb: will prod Arve

11:11:00 [tlr]

... we're past the planned deadline for publishing ...

11:11:17 [tlr]

ACTION: art to ping Arve regarding status of core API and events specification

11:11:18 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-252 - Ping Arve regarding status of core API and events specification [on Arthur Barstow - due 2008-10-02].

11:11:24 [tlr]

zakim, I am thomas

11:11:24 [Zakim]

ok, tlr, I now associate you with Thomas

11:11:26 [tlr]

zakim, mute me

11:11:26 [Zakim]

Thomas should now be muted

11:11:29 [tlr]

topic: automatic updates

11:11:38 [tlr]

Scribe: tlr

11:11:58 [tlr]

marcos: dotting t's, crossing i's

11:12:05 [tlr]

... should have something ready later today ...

11:12:22 [tlr]

... started working on processing model ...

11:12:29 [tlr]

... put in a bunch of red blocks to show where we're going ...

11:12:37 [mpriestl]

+q

11:12:40 [tlr]

... think it's ready for FPWD ...

11:12:46 [tlr]

artb: noticed request to webreq already

11:12:47 [tlr]

q+

11:13:07 [tlr]

zakim, unmute me

11:13:07 [Zakim]

Thomas should no longer be muted

11:13:44 [tlr]

tlr: transition request?

11:14:27 [tlr]

artb: not yet, and confused publication requests

11:14:32 [tlr]

... what are the prerequisites?

11:14:40 [tlr]

tlr: reasonably stable editor's draft, SOTD, Abstract

11:14:46 [tlr]

... there can be some editorial fine-tuning

11:14:55 [tlr]

artb: marcos, please let me know when you're ready

11:14:58 [tlr]

marcos: couple hours

11:15:03 [tlr]

q-

11:15:14 [tlr]

ack mpr

11:15:26 [tlr]

mpriestl: Marcos, we discussed a while ago about text on security of updates

11:15:29 [tlr]

... have something in draft ...

11:15:35 [tlr]

... but need a few more days to finish ...

11:15:42 [tlr]

... should be available by Monday ...

11:15:54 [tlr]

marcos: for the automatic update spec?

11:15:56 [tlr]

mpriestl: yes

11:15:59 [tlr]

marcos: wait?

11:16:04 [tlr]

mpriestl: don't want to hold up things

11:16:11 [tlr]

... will send to list on Monday or as soon as I can ...

11:16:21 [tlr]

artb: recommend not to block publication on this

11:16:36 [tlr]

... as soon as document is published, that would be a good time for Marc to send comments

11:16:40 [tlr]

mpriestl: agree

11:16:42 [tlr]

marcos: agree

11:16:49 [tlr]

artb: looking forward to that input

11:16:58 [tlr]

topic: digsig spec

11:17:28 [tlr]

marcos: have been discussing various approaches ...

11:17:39 [tlr]

... particularly in relation to including multiple signatures ...

11:17:44 [tlr]

... and dealing with cert chains ...

11:17:50 [tlr]

... we haven't drafted anything quite yet ...

11:17:55 [tlr]

... plan to work on that soon with Marc ...

11:18:03 [mpriestl]

q+

11:18:05 [tlr]

... priority to getting second Last Call of Requirements out ...

11:18:10 [tlr]

... and auto-update FPWD ...

11:18:21 [tlr]

... no spec language yet, but think we have a model and can start spec'ing ...

11:18:28 [tlr]

ack mpr

11:18:37 [tlr]

mpriestl: fyi, BONDI f2f discussed the spec

11:18:48 [tlr]

.... position at the moment (which we hope to formally communicate this week) ...

11:18:57 [tlr]

... is that we hope to adopt W3C solution in BONDI ...

11:19:04 [tlr]

... will be officially communicated later this week ...

11:19:29 [tlr]

artb: in the agenda, listed a couple issues

11:19:31 [tlr]

ISSUE-19?

11:19:31 [trackbot]

ISSUE-19 -- Widgets digital Signatures spec does not meet required use cases and requirements -- OPEN

11:19:31 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/issues/19

11:19:33 [tlr]

ISSUE-22?

11:19:33 [trackbot]

ISSUE-22 -- Is sha1 as a DigestMethod strong enough for Widgets digital signatures? -- OPEN

11:19:33 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/issues/22

11:19:45 [tlr]

artb: discussed these most recently in Turin; don't necessarily want to do deep dive

11:20:11 [ArtB]

Issue #19 discussion from Turin: http://www.w3.org/2008/08/27-wam-minutes.html#item06

11:20:17 [tlr]

marcos: ISSUE-19 -- we now have a clearer idea of what the UC&R's are

11:20:18 [tlr]

... will put things into the spec some time soon ...

11:20:22 [tlr]

... want to list what the use cases are ...

11:20:31 [tlr]

... basically, think that our current model addresses things ....

11:20:34 [tlr]

... but need to spec it out ...

11:20:47 [tlr]

... wrt ISSUE-22, can close that -- agreement that SHA1 is not the only digest in town ...

11:20:50 [mpriestl]

q+

11:20:53 [tlr]

q+

11:21:04 [tlr]

ack mpriestl

11:21:26 [tlr]

mpriestl: question for Thomas, you said that in the update to dsig spec, might specify sha-256

11:21:28 [tlr]

... any update? ...

11:21:30 [tlr]

ack tlr

11:21:33 [tlr]

... or any reason?

11:22:14 [ArtB]

Discussion re Issue #22 from Turin is: http://www.w3.org/2008/08/27-wam-minutes.html#item07

11:22:38 [tlr]

tlr: no progress quite yet, also, I seem to recall that there was something about algorithm URIs

11:23:11 [ArtB]

Here is the action I accepted re Issue #22 http://www.w3.org/2008/08/27-wam-minutes.html#action05

11:23:21 [tlr]

artb: yes, still want to do that

11:23:38 [tlr]

... put this item on the agenda for today to see whether I still should ask that question ...

11:23:41 [Bryan]

Bryan has joined #wam

11:23:42 [tlr]

tlr: that would be a good idea

11:23:49 [tlr]

artb: will put together e-mail today

11:24:54 [tlr]

... anything else?

11:25:02 [tlr]

topic: Packaging and config

11:25:57 [tlr]

marcos: not too much new to report

11:26:17 [tlr]

... updated some things; latest draft not yet submitted ..

11:26:21 [tlr]

... working on the URI problem ...

11:26:36 [tlr]

... re-reading URI spec, making sure terminology is in line with that ...

11:27:01 [tlr]

artb: marcos, it would be helpful if you could go ahead and upload current snapshot

11:27:07 [tlr]

... even if not perfect yet ...

11:27:12 [tlr]

... drafts are by definition fluid and all that ...

11:27:28 [tlr]

... latest draft is a couple months old ...

11:27:45 [tlr]

marcos: usually submit source version fairly regularly ...

11:28:02 [tlr]

... source version is usually current ...

11:28:10 [tlr]

... if you want to see bleeding edge, look at source version ...

11:28:31 [tlr]

artb: want to be able to show some of the latest and greatest thoughts

11:28:39 [tlr]

... nice to be able to be more specific

11:28:52 [tlr]

... is the source-to-html process a lot of manual work?

11:28:54 [tlr]

marcos: no big deal

11:29:15 [tlr]

artb: we'd much appreciate if you could make that update more often

11:29:16 [tlr]

marcos: will do

11:29:20 [DKA]

DKA has joined #wam

11:30:18 [tlr]

marcos: Interested in talking about e-mails, in particular the ones from i18n

11:30:20 [tlr]

... affect auto update ...

11:30:21 [tlr]

... would like to talk about this ...

11:30:26 [tlr]

... start with Felix' message ...

11:30:39 [ArtB]

Felix comments: <http://www.w3.org/mid/48C86720.70206@w3.org>

11:31:13 [ArtB]

... from the archive: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2008JulSep/0626.html

11:31:52 [tlr]

marcos: we asked about span vs Unicode characters

11:32:02 [tlr]

... they said the Unicode characters are a really bad idea

11:32:06 [tlr]

... recommend use of its:span

11:32:21 [tlr]

... it does add another level of complexity

11:32:27 [tlr]

... need to talk about how we actually address that ...

11:32:39 [tlr]

http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/REC-its-20070403/#span

11:33:16 [tlr]

marcos: could also be silent on this, leave it to implementers

11:33:26 [tlr]

... there are conflicts with the current algorithm ...

11:33:48 [tlr]

... currently, we build a big text string out of elements inside ...

11:33:49 [tlr]

q+

11:33:56 [tlr]

... this is for error handling reasons ...

11:34:03 [tlr]

... can relax algorithm in the future ...

11:34:16 [tlr]

... not sure that's the best approach ...

11:34:21 [tlr]

... modelled on HTML5 parsing algorithm ...

11:34:29 [tlr]

q?

11:34:37 [tlr]

ack thomas

11:35:00 [tlr]

tlr: "the algorithm" was what?

11:35:06 [tlr]

marcos: config document

11:35:13 [tlr]

... if author puts HTML / XHTML tag inside description ...

11:35:29 [tlr]

... and engine doesn't know how to deal with this ...

11:35:32 [tlr]

... just grabbing text content

11:36:08 [tlr]

tlr: is the concern about HTML, then?

11:36:17 [tlr]

marcos: either introduce bdo or span explicitly within this spec

11:36:34 [tlr]

... but that would imply changing the parsing algorithm ...

11:36:47 [tlr]

... explicit introduction of new element ...

11:37:23 [tlr]

tlr: mhhh.. that sounds like an awfully broad extensibility model for descriptions

11:37:31 [tlr]

... maybe tighten that ...

11:37:44 [tlr]

... but not sure I understand the point well enough right now to make the argument ...

11:37:48 [tlr]

artb: interoperability concern around this

11:37:58 [tlr]

... ITS support, etc ...

11:38:24 [tlr]

just to be clear, I'm happy with ITS, but wonder whether "arbitrary XML stuff" is the right approach for the description

11:38:31 [tlr]

artb: want to have feed-back from arveb

11:38:39 [tlr]

... please follow up on the mailing list ...

11:38:46 [tlr]

... this might be a specific agendum for Cannes ...

11:38:57 [tlr]

... may try to drag I18N folks into the room.

11:39:04 [tlr]

marcos: would prefer to resolve this before then

11:39:15 [tlr]

... once the update spec is out, will try to work on packaging spec

11:39:19 [tlr]

q+

11:39:23 [tlr]

ack t

11:40:18 [tlr]

tlr: I think there's a requirements question here about what kind of material goes into the description

11:40:20 [tlr]

marcos: description of what the widget does, maybe some arabic

11:40:42 [tlr]

tlr: concern is that permitting arbitrary XML content there could get messy

11:40:53 [tlr]

... concern is not about ITS, though ...

11:41:06 [tlr]

artb: agree; maybe KISS for v1

11:41:56 [ArtB]

Here is Dom's input re the P&C spec: http://www.w3.org/mid/1221556815.6777.88.camel@localhost

11:42:14 [marcos]

AB: other comments we need to look at are from Dom

11:43:45 [ArtB]

ScribeNick: ArtB

11:44:25 [ArtB]

AB: we've discussed the HTML5 reference issue before; I'm concerned about it for this spec as well as other specs in progress

11:44:30 [ArtB]

MC: we have two options:

11:44:39 [ArtB]

... 1. We don't care

11:44:53 [marcos]

MC: there are two minds on this: one is we don't care about going to REC and keep referencing HTML5; the other is that we copy and paste the bits we like HTML5 into our spec.

11:44:56 [ArtB]

... 2. We copy-and-paste text from HTML5

11:45:32 [ArtB]

AB: it seems like option #2 is our only really option

11:45:47 [tlr]

ScribeNick: tlr

11:46:02 [tlr]

benoit: is there a way that we can get along without a reference to HTML5?

11:46:29 [tlr]

marcos: it'll take a loong time

11:46:53 [tlr]

q+

11:47:16 [tlr]

benoit: want to make sure we're adaptive enough

11:47:36 [tlr]

artb: if we need to copy and paste from HTML5, note that this is the algorithm

11:47:56 [tlr]

marcos: will look more closely

11:48:22 [tlr]

benoit: instead of copying and pasting...

11:49:24 [tlr]

tlr: is content sniffing really needed in the widget spec?

11:49:45 [tlr]

marcos: we don't have a manifest...

11:50:18 [tlr]

tlr: I think this is a more general point

11:50:20 [tlr]

... maybe raise it more generally?

11:50:42 [tlr]

marcos: there's some discussion going on

11:50:44 [tlr]

tlr: ah, interesting!

11:51:35 [tlr]

artb: plan in turin was to advance as much as possible, so ready to request LC soon after Mandelieu

11:51:44 [tlr]

topic: AOB

11:52:10 [tlr]

marcos: Bryan on the call; maybe he can give us update on MWBP

11:52:17 [tlr]

... what happened to our feed-back ...

11:52:57 [tlr]

Bryan: happy to adapt things; guidelines to developers on how widget APIs are used

11:53:03 [tlr]

... we can make some recommendations as to how they do things ...

11:53:09 [tlr]

... some of the things we suggested be firm requirements ...

11:53:18 [tlr]

... the other thing, within the scope of OMTP, have ability to make ...

11:53:22 [tlr]

... requirements on implementations ...

11:53:30 [tlr]

... couple ways to establish requirements ...

11:53:40 [tlr]

... undestand focus of webapps and widgets to be on packaging ...

11:53:46 [tlr]

... not so much behavior or best practices ...

11:53:55 [tlr]

... possible that we promote interoperability, efficiency etc

11:54:03 [tlr]

... usability aspects within this group ...

11:54:07 [tlr]

... torch carried by MWI ...

11:54:15 [tlr]

artb: that sounds like a useful split of work ...

11:54:39 [tlr]

bryan: re uaprof, specifying user agent, can specify behavior for XHR aPI

11:54:46 [tlr]

... don't need to do that within widget spec itself ...

11:54:55 [tlr]

artb: bryan, coming to Mandelieu?

11:55:02 [tlr]

bryan: conflicts with OMA meeting

11:55:21 [tlr]

marcos: for purposes of disposition of comments, was MWBP group happy with feedback?

11:55:29 [tlr]

bryan: will send question to list today

11:55:33 [tlr]

... won't be in meeting today ...

11:55:39 [tlr]

... can get them to ask that question to get closure ...

11:55:52 [tlr]

... my sense is that they understood focus, and scope of influence ...

11:55:57 [tlr]

... better understanding now ...

11:56:20 [tlr]

zakim, list participants

11:56:20 [Zakim]

As of this point the attendees have been +44.771.751.aaaa, Art_Barstow, Thomas, Bryan_Sullivan, Marcos, Benoit

11:56:23 [tlr]

rrsagent, draft minutes

11:56:23 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/09/25-wam-minutes.html tlr

11:56:31 [tlr]

Topic: next meeting

11:56:36 [Zakim]

- +44.771.751.aaaa

11:56:36 [tlr]

artb: next week, same time

11:56:37 [Zakim]

-Benoit

11:56:38 [Zakim]

-Bryan_Sullivan

11:56:39 [tlr]

rrsagent, draft minutes

11:56:39 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/09/25-wam-minutes.html tlr

11:56:44 [Zakim]

-Marcos

11:56:46 [Zakim]

-Thomas

11:57:07 [ArtB]

rrsagent, make logs public

11:57:42 [Zakim]

-Art_Barstow

11:57:43 [Zakim]

IA_WebApps(Widgets)7:00AM has ended

11:57:45 [Zakim]

Attendees were +44.771.751.aaaa, Art_Barstow, Thomas, Bryan_Sullivan, Marcos, Benoit

11:58:12 [ArtB]

rrsagent, make minutes

11:58:12 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/09/25-wam-minutes.html ArtB

12:09:47 [ArtB]

rrsagent, bye

12:09:47 [RRSAgent]

I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/25-wam-actions.rdf :

12:09:47 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: art to ping Arve regarding status of core API and events specification [1]

12:09:47 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/25-wam-irc#T11-11-17