11:01:47 RRSAgent has joined #wam 11:01:47 logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/09/25-wam-irc 11:02:26 +??P12 11:03:22 +Caroline 11:03:26 +Bryan_Sullivan 11:03:33 zakim, ??P12 is Marcos 11:03:33 +Marcos; got it 11:03:46 zakim, Caroline is Benoit 11:03:46 +Benoit; got it 11:04:22 Meeting: Widgets Voice Conference 11:04:28 Date: 25 September 2008 11:04:32 Chair: Art 11:04:33 Benoit has joined #wam 11:04:34 Scribe: Art 11:04:40 ScribeNick: ArtB 11:04:50 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2008JulSep/0715.html 11:05:09 Regrets: Arve, Nick, David, Claudio 11:05:36 Present: Art, Bryan, Marcos, Thomas, Benoit, Mark 11:05:46 ScribeNick: tlr 11:06:24 topic: Announcements 11:06:31 artb: reminder, go ahead and register for TPAC 11:06:44 AB: registration list: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35125/TPAC2008/registrants#webapps 11:06:47 benoit: I think I'm registered 11:06:54 artb: Marc, Claudio, most of the usual suspects are registered 11:07:02 ... obvious omissions at this point are the OMTP folks ... 11:07:13 ... about 19 people registered as members of the WG ... 11:07:23 ... will split up meeting; not everybody will attend widget part ... 11:07:27 benoit: half/half? 11:07:31 artb: unlikely. 90/10 11:07:40 ... interested in any discussions related to access-control and xhr2 specs .. 11:07:55 ... maybe a big joint meeting for that discussion ... 11:08:01 ... let's see how things unfold over the next few weeks ... 11:08:14 ... also, Larry Masinter will be attending the meeting ... 11:08:20 ... registered as observer for Tuesday ... 11:08:46 ... believe that Larry is member of TAG ... 11:09:58 ... any other announcements? 11:10:19 topic: Widgets core API and events status 11:10:27 per http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/#Membership, Larry Masinter is not a member of the TAG 11:10:36 artb: marcos, can you give us any update? 11:10:39 marcos: nope 11:10:49 artb: will prod Arve 11:11:00 ... we're past the planned deadline for publishing ... 11:11:17 ACTION: art to ping Arve regarding status of core API and events specification 11:11:18 Created ACTION-252 - Ping Arve regarding status of core API and events specification [on Arthur Barstow - due 2008-10-02]. 11:11:24 zakim, I am thomas 11:11:24 ok, tlr, I now associate you with Thomas 11:11:26 zakim, mute me 11:11:26 Thomas should now be muted 11:11:29 topic: automatic updates 11:11:38 Scribe: tlr 11:11:58 marcos: dotting t's, crossing i's 11:12:05 ... should have something ready later today ... 11:12:22 ... started working on processing model ... 11:12:29 ... put in a bunch of red blocks to show where we're going ... 11:12:37 +q 11:12:40 ... think it's ready for FPWD ... 11:12:46 artb: noticed request to webreq already 11:12:47 q+ 11:13:07 zakim, unmute me 11:13:07 Thomas should no longer be muted 11:13:44 tlr: transition request? 11:14:27 artb: not yet, and confused publication requests 11:14:32 ... what are the prerequisites? 11:14:40 tlr: reasonably stable editor's draft, SOTD, Abstract 11:14:46 ... there can be some editorial fine-tuning 11:14:55 artb: marcos, please let me know when you're ready 11:14:58 marcos: couple hours 11:15:03 q- 11:15:14 ack mpr 11:15:26 mpriestl: Marcos, we discussed a while ago about text on security of updates 11:15:29 ... have something in draft ... 11:15:35 ... but need a few more days to finish ... 11:15:42 ... should be available by Monday ... 11:15:54 marcos: for the automatic update spec? 11:15:56 mpriestl: yes 11:15:59 marcos: wait? 11:16:04 mpriestl: don't want to hold up things 11:16:11 ... will send to list on Monday or as soon as I can ... 11:16:21 artb: recommend not to block publication on this 11:16:36 ... as soon as document is published, that would be a good time for Marc to send comments 11:16:40 mpriestl: agree 11:16:42 marcos: agree 11:16:49 artb: looking forward to that input 11:16:58 topic: digsig spec 11:17:28 marcos: have been discussing various approaches ... 11:17:39 ... particularly in relation to including multiple signatures ... 11:17:44 ... and dealing with cert chains ... 11:17:50 ... we haven't drafted anything quite yet ... 11:17:55 ... plan to work on that soon with Marc ... 11:18:03 q+ 11:18:05 ... priority to getting second Last Call of Requirements out ... 11:18:10 ... and auto-update FPWD ... 11:18:21 ... no spec language yet, but think we have a model and can start spec'ing ... 11:18:28 ack mpr 11:18:37 mpriestl: fyi, BONDI f2f discussed the spec 11:18:48 .... position at the moment (which we hope to formally communicate this week) ... 11:18:57 ... is that we hope to adopt W3C solution in BONDI ... 11:19:04 ... will be officially communicated later this week ... 11:19:29 artb: in the agenda, listed a couple issues 11:19:31 ISSUE-19? 11:19:31 ISSUE-19 -- Widgets digital Signatures spec does not meet required use cases and requirements -- OPEN 11:19:31 http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/issues/19 11:19:33 ISSUE-22? 11:19:33 ISSUE-22 -- Is sha1 as a DigestMethod strong enough for Widgets digital signatures? -- OPEN 11:19:33 http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/issues/22 11:19:45 artb: discussed these most recently in Turin; don't necessarily want to do deep dive 11:20:11 Issue #19 discussion from Turin: http://www.w3.org/2008/08/27-wam-minutes.html#item06 11:20:17 marcos: ISSUE-19 -- we now have a clearer idea of what the UC&R's are 11:20:18 ... will put things into the spec some time soon ... 11:20:22 ... want to list what the use cases are ... 11:20:31 ... basically, think that our current model addresses things .... 11:20:34 ... but need to spec it out ... 11:20:47 ... wrt ISSUE-22, can close that -- agreement that SHA1 is not the only digest in town ... 11:20:50 q+ 11:20:53 q+ 11:21:04 ack mpriestl 11:21:26 mpriestl: question for Thomas, you said that in the update to dsig spec, might specify sha-256 11:21:28 ... any update? ... 11:21:30 ack tlr 11:21:33 ... or any reason? 11:22:14 Discussion re Issue #22 from Turin is: http://www.w3.org/2008/08/27-wam-minutes.html#item07 11:22:38 tlr: no progress quite yet, also, I seem to recall that there was something about algorithm URIs 11:23:11 Here is the action I accepted re Issue #22 http://www.w3.org/2008/08/27-wam-minutes.html#action05 11:23:21 artb: yes, still want to do that 11:23:38 ... put this item on the agenda for today to see whether I still should ask that question ... 11:23:41 Bryan has joined #wam 11:23:42 tlr: that would be a good idea 11:23:49 artb: will put together e-mail today 11:24:54 ... anything else? 11:25:02 topic: Packaging and config 11:25:57 marcos: not too much new to report 11:26:17 ... updated some things; latest draft not yet submitted .. 11:26:21 ... working on the URI problem ... 11:26:36 ... re-reading URI spec, making sure terminology is in line with that ... 11:27:01 artb: marcos, it would be helpful if you could go ahead and upload current snapshot 11:27:07 ... even if not perfect yet ... 11:27:12 ... drafts are by definition fluid and all that ... 11:27:28 ... latest draft is a couple months old ... 11:27:45 marcos: usually submit source version fairly regularly ... 11:28:02 ... source version is usually current ... 11:28:10 ... if you want to see bleeding edge, look at source version ... 11:28:31 artb: want to be able to show some of the latest and greatest thoughts 11:28:39 ... nice to be able to be more specific 11:28:52 ... is the source-to-html process a lot of manual work? 11:28:54 marcos: no big deal 11:29:15 artb: we'd much appreciate if you could make that update more often 11:29:16 marcos: will do 11:29:20 DKA has joined #wam 11:30:18 marcos: Interested in talking about e-mails, in particular the ones from i18n 11:30:20 ... affect auto update ... 11:30:21 ... would like to talk about this ... 11:30:26 ... start with Felix' message ... 11:30:39 Felix comments: 11:31:13 ... from the archive: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2008JulSep/0626.html 11:31:52 marcos: we asked about span vs Unicode characters 11:32:02 ... they said the Unicode characters are a really bad idea 11:32:06 ... recommend use of its:span 11:32:21 ... it does add another level of complexity 11:32:27 ... need to talk about how we actually address that ... 11:32:39 http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/REC-its-20070403/#span 11:33:16 marcos: could also be silent on this, leave it to implementers 11:33:26 ... there are conflicts with the current algorithm ... 11:33:48 ... currently, we build a big text string out of elements inside ... 11:33:49 q+ 11:33:56 ... this is for error handling reasons ... 11:34:03 ... can relax algorithm in the future ... 11:34:16 ... not sure that's the best approach ... 11:34:21 ... modelled on HTML5 parsing algorithm ... 11:34:29 q? 11:34:37 ack thomas 11:35:00 tlr: "the algorithm" was what? 11:35:06 marcos: config document 11:35:13 ... if author puts HTML / XHTML tag inside description ... 11:35:29 ... and engine doesn't know how to deal with this ... 11:35:32 ... just grabbing text content 11:36:08 tlr: is the concern about HTML, then? 11:36:17 marcos: either introduce bdo or span explicitly within this spec 11:36:34 ... but that would imply changing the parsing algorithm ... 11:36:47 ... explicit introduction of new element ... 11:37:23 tlr: mhhh.. that sounds like an awfully broad extensibility model for descriptions 11:37:31 ... maybe tighten that ... 11:37:44 ... but not sure I understand the point well enough right now to make the argument ... 11:37:48 artb: interoperability concern around this 11:37:58 ... ITS support, etc ... 11:38:24 just to be clear, I'm happy with ITS, but wonder whether "arbitrary XML stuff" is the right approach for the description 11:38:31 artb: want to have feed-back from arveb 11:38:39 ... please follow up on the mailing list ... 11:38:46 ... this might be a specific agendum for Cannes ... 11:38:57 ... may try to drag I18N folks into the room. 11:39:04 marcos: would prefer to resolve this before then 11:39:15 ... once the update spec is out, will try to work on packaging spec 11:39:19 q+ 11:39:23 ack t 11:40:18 tlr: I think there's a requirements question here about what kind of material goes into the description 11:40:20 marcos: description of what the widget does, maybe some arabic 11:40:42 tlr: concern is that permitting arbitrary XML content there could get messy 11:40:53 ... concern is not about ITS, though ... 11:41:06 artb: agree; maybe KISS for v1 11:41:56 Here is Dom's input re the P&C spec: http://www.w3.org/mid/1221556815.6777.88.camel@localhost 11:42:14 AB: other comments we need to look at are from Dom 11:43:45 ScribeNick: ArtB 11:44:25 AB: we've discussed the HTML5 reference issue before; I'm concerned about it for this spec as well as other specs in progress 11:44:30 MC: we have two options: 11:44:39 ... 1. We don't care 11:44:53 MC: there are two minds on this: one is we don't care about going to REC and keep referencing HTML5; the other is that we copy and paste the bits we like HTML5 into our spec. 11:44:56 ... 2. We copy-and-paste text from HTML5 11:45:32 AB: it seems like option #2 is our only really option 11:45:47 ScribeNick: tlr 11:46:02 benoit: is there a way that we can get along without a reference to HTML5? 11:46:29 marcos: it'll take a loong time 11:46:53 q+ 11:47:16 benoit: want to make sure we're adaptive enough 11:47:36 artb: if we need to copy and paste from HTML5, note that this is the algorithm 11:47:56 marcos: will look more closely 11:48:22 benoit: instead of copying and pasting... 11:49:24 tlr: is content sniffing really needed in the widget spec? 11:49:45 marcos: we don't have a manifest... 11:50:18 tlr: I think this is a more general point 11:50:20 ... maybe raise it more generally? 11:50:42 marcos: there's some discussion going on 11:50:44 tlr: ah, interesting! 11:51:35 artb: plan in turin was to advance as much as possible, so ready to request LC soon after Mandelieu 11:51:44 topic: AOB 11:52:10 marcos: Bryan on the call; maybe he can give us update on MWBP 11:52:17 ... what happened to our feed-back ... 11:52:57 Bryan: happy to adapt things; guidelines to developers on how widget APIs are used 11:53:03 ... we can make some recommendations as to how they do things ... 11:53:09 ... some of the things we suggested be firm requirements ... 11:53:18 ... the other thing, within the scope of OMTP, have ability to make ... 11:53:22 ... requirements on implementations ... 11:53:30 ... couple ways to establish requirements ... 11:53:40 ... undestand focus of webapps and widgets to be on packaging ... 11:53:46 ... not so much behavior or best practices ... 11:53:55 ... possible that we promote interoperability, efficiency etc 11:54:03 ... usability aspects within this group ... 11:54:07 ... torch carried by MWI ... 11:54:15 artb: that sounds like a useful split of work ... 11:54:39 bryan: re uaprof, specifying user agent, can specify behavior for XHR aPI 11:54:46 ... don't need to do that within widget spec itself ... 11:54:55 artb: bryan, coming to Mandelieu? 11:55:02 bryan: conflicts with OMA meeting 11:55:21 marcos: for purposes of disposition of comments, was MWBP group happy with feedback? 11:55:29 bryan: will send question to list today 11:55:33 ... won't be in meeting today ... 11:55:39 ... can get them to ask that question to get closure ... 11:55:52 ... my sense is that they understood focus, and scope of influence ... 11:55:57 ... better understanding now ... 11:56:20 zakim, list participants 11:56:20 As of this point the attendees have been +44.771.751.aaaa, Art_Barstow, Thomas, Bryan_Sullivan, Marcos, Benoit 11:56:23 rrsagent, draft minutes 11:56:23 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/09/25-wam-minutes.html tlr 11:56:31 Topic: next meeting 11:56:36 - +44.771.751.aaaa 11:56:36 artb: next week, same time 11:56:37 -Benoit 11:56:38 -Bryan_Sullivan 11:56:39 rrsagent, draft minutes 11:56:39 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/09/25-wam-minutes.html tlr 11:56:44 -Marcos 11:56:46 -Thomas 11:57:07 rrsagent, make logs public 11:57:42 -Art_Barstow 11:57:43 IA_WebApps(Widgets)7:00AM has ended 11:57:45 Attendees were +44.771.751.aaaa, Art_Barstow, Thomas, Bryan_Sullivan, Marcos, Benoit 11:58:12 rrsagent, make minutes 11:58:12 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/09/25-wam-minutes.html ArtB 12:09:47 rrsagent, bye 12:09:47 I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/25-wam-actions.rdf : 12:09:47 ACTION: art to ping Arve regarding status of core API and events specification [1] 12:09:47 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/25-wam-irc#T11-11-17