17:50:49 RRSAgent has joined #ua 17:50:49 logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/09/25-ua-irc 17:51:03 rrsagent, set logs public 17:52:04 agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JulSep/0145.html 17:52:26 Title: UAWG telecon 25 Sept 2008 17:52:36 Chair: Jim_Allan 17:56:45 sharper has joined #ua 17:56:46 WAI_UAWG()2:00PM has now started 17:56:53 +[Microsoft] 17:57:59 zakim, code? 17:57:59 the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jeanne 17:58:19 +Jeanne 17:58:36 zakim, [Microsoft] is KFord 17:58:36 +KFord; got it 17:58:54 + +1.512.233.aaaa 17:59:36 zakim, +1.512.233.aaaa is jallan 17:59:36 +jallan; got it 18:00:00 Jan has joined #ua 18:00:08 zakim, code? 18:00:08 the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), Jan 18:00:39 +??P3 18:00:42 zakim, ??P3 is sharper 18:00:42 +sharper; got it 18:01:09 +??P4 18:01:22 zakim, ??P4 is really Jan 18:01:22 +Jan; got it 18:01:44 judy has joined #ua 18:01:51 zakim, dial judy-office 18:01:51 ok, judy; the call is being made 18:01:53 +Judy 18:01:55 http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2008/WD-UAAG20-20080925/WD-UAAG20-20080925.html#principle-operable 18:04:53 http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2008/WD-UAAG20-20080925/WD-UAAG20-20080925.html#principle-operable 18:05:23 KFord has joined #ua 18:06:21 JAllen: deal with agenda for face to face. 18:06:35 agreement from all. 18:07:01 issues list http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2008JulSep/0144.html 18:07:03 llen: came up with some issues printing and such. JAllen posting list. 18:08:50 Discussion of printing proposal. 18:09:06 JBrewer: Do we need to do things to preparee 18:09:44 JAllen: review proposal, ensure we have everything outlined. 18:10:10 discussion of who will be attending. 18:10:40 SHarper traveling, may be calling. 18:10:48 JAN, still working details out. 18:10:58 KFord hopefully know more after tomorrow. 18:11:39 trackbot, start telecon 18:11:39 Sorry, KFord, I don't understand 'trackbot, start telecon'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help 18:12:28 JAllen: other issue is keyboard. 18:13:00 JAllen: anything else? 18:13:05 silence. 18:13:22 JAllen: The other issue is video. 18:13:44 JAllen: We had done some back in March, had some discussion. Not sure we moved beyond the presentation. 18:14:50 Scribe: KFord 18:15:27 JAllen: Have concern around currnet guideline assumes we have an external player. 18:15:48 JAllen: With HTML5 we are looking at native playing in the browser itself. 18:16:06 q+ 18:16:07 JAllen: How do we cover something that's in such a state of flux? 18:16:52 JAN: I think as a general rule any content can be handled either natively or by a plug-in. We cover this situation in general. 18:17:15 JAN: Gave example of some native things Firefox does today. 18:17:49 KF: guidelines cover this 18:17:52 q- 18:18:48 kford: Our guidelines do kind of assume this today. Could be more explicit. 18:19:38 JAllen: does this go down a bunny trail where you have some native player but then you can open a full player with more accessibility. 18:20:06 JAllen: does this go down a bunny trail where you have some native player but then you can open a full player with more accessibility.JAllen: Do we have enough to put video on the agenda? 18:20:39 JAllen: does this go down a bunny trail where you have some native player but then you can open a full player with more accessibility.JAllen: Do we have enough to put video on the agenda?JBrewer: Think we put it on the agenda. 18:21:05 JAllen: does this go down a bunny trail where you have some native player but then you can open a full player with more accessibility.JAllen: Do we have enough to put video on the agenda?JBrewer: Think we put it on the agenda./me can someone scribe for one second. 18:21:42 KFord has joined #ua 18:21:46 scribe: judy 18:22:06 JA: the other thing we had from the Wiki was the reworking of principle 2 18:22:19 ... the DOM, the -- it's a huge area 18:22:43 JS: the f2f is a great place to do that. could network with many other people at the TPAC. 18:22:59 JA: and right now we have only 1 non-team member observer. any more? 18:23:03 JS: looking... 18:23:15 JA: are we allowed to invite people? 18:24:04 JB: if you mean to invite people already attending the TPAC to join a specific part of the meeting to discuss a topic, yes 18:24:13 KFord has joined #ua 18:24:27 JA: want to get some fresh technical eyes to look at principle 2 18:24:49 Scribe: KFord 18:26:17 Action: kford look at section 2 and see what questions we need answered at face to face. 18:26:17 Sorry, couldn't find user - kford 18:26:26 Action: KF to review Principle 2 and look for issues that the team will need to discuss at the F2F. 18:26:26 Created ACTION-16 - Review Principle 2 and look for issues that the team will need to discuss at the F2F. [on Kelly Ford - due 2008-10-02]. 18:27:38 JBrewer: We might benefit by identifying 5 questions when doing a top to bottom review of document. 18:28:09 JBrewer: Comprehensiveness, do we note any big gaps now that we've been looking at this? 18:28:32 JBrewer: Clarity: Are there areas where the provisions seem unclear. 18:29:07 JBrewer: Organization: We are at a good stage to look at this. Does anything need to move to new sections. 18:29:32 JBrewer: Consiceness (sp): Document seems to complex at times. 18:29:55 JBreewer: Are we being consistent in the document and phrasing. 18:30:17 JBrewer: Compatibility: Are we the same as other W3C accessibility specs. 18:30:43 JBrewer: I think there's benefit to doing a document review but we need to have some structure. 18:30:56 JAllen: Thanks, Judy, good list. 18:31:20 s/Consiceness/Conciseness 18:31:25 JBrewer: Does it make sense to talk about this list, anything missing, order? 18:32:13 JAllen: Summarizes JBrewer's items, consistency, organization, compat, complexity. 18:32:29 JAllen: Consiseness. 18:33:35 Comprehensiveness, clarity, conciseness/simplicity, organization, compatability. 18:34:21 JAN: Someplace, maybe with clarity, needs to be realism of the checkpoint. 18:34:44 JAN: Kind of what WCAG is dealing with where they maybe are finding some things are not as realistic as they thought. 18:35:02 feasibility, testability 18:35:56 JBrewer: WCAG doing reasonably well but for a couple things that bubbled up in recent coordination call. Need to ensure we think about testability and Feasability 18:36:41 Some discussion around agenda items and such. Defining Feasability and testability. 18:37:20 JAllen: Let's talk about this a bit more. 18:38:09 Jallen: You might be great to start looking at clarity. 18:38:45 SHarper: Comprehensiveness might be good to look at with the gaps we've been talking about. If we make sure everything's there, we can organize it. 18:38:56 +1 with Simon 18:39:42 Comprehensiveness, clarity, conciseness/simplicity, organization, compatability, feasibility, testability 18:40:52 Jeanne: I volunteer for calrity and compat. 18:41:19 I will also do organization 18:41:24 JAllen: Feasability and testability. 18:42:12 SHarper: Feasability 18:43:13 JAN: testability 18:43:30 JAN: Compatability 18:43:42 Judy: Clarity, con and comprehensiveness. 18:44:12 kford: clarity, organization and testability 18:44:41 Action JA: Feasibility and testability 18:44:41 Created ACTION-17 - Feasibility and testability [on Jim Allan - due 2008-10-02]. 18:45:00 Action JR: Compatibility & testability 18:45:00 Created ACTION-18 - Compatibility & testability [on Jan Richards - due 2008-10-02]. 18:45:23 Action KF: Clarity, conciseness, testability 18:45:23 Created ACTION-19 - Clarity, conciseness, testability [on Kelly Ford - due 2008-10-02]. 18:46:03 JB: Clarrity, conciseness, comprehensiveness 18:46:08 Meeting pauses while JAN hands out work. 18:46:09 Action JB: Clarrity, conciseness, comprehensiveness 18:46:09 Created ACTION-20 - Clarrity, conciseness, comprehensiveness [on Judy Brewer - due 2008-10-02]. 18:46:56 Action SH: Feasibility and comprehensiveness 18:46:56 Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - SH 18:46:56 Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. sharper, shayes) 18:47:14 Action sharper: Feasibility and comprehensiveness 18:47:14 Created ACTION-21 - Feasibility and comprehensiveness [on Simon Harper - due 2008-10-02]. 18:47:54 Action JS: Organization, clarity and compatibility 18:47:55 Created ACTION-22 - Organization, clarity and compatibility [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2008-10-02]. 18:49:05 JAllen: Let's talk about structure. We have two days and about 6.5 hours each day. 18:49:34 JAllen: Good direction on top to bottom review. Could probably take a day. 18:49:54 JBrewer: Could take a day, or three days. How do we want to ensure this is successful. 18:50:07 JBrewer: We could go through top to bottom n a day. 18:51:05 JBrewer: We could select criteria in some order and go through. Cluster items. 18:51:13 ?me Judy can you repeat your clusters? 18:52:01 comprehensiveness-organization-compatibility, testability-feasibility, conciseness-clarity 18:52:09 kford: I like the idea of clustering. 18:52:30 JAllen: I like this. 18:53:56 First pass: comprehensiveness, compatability, organization; Second pass: feasibility, testability; Third pass: conciseness, clarity 18:56:33 Scribe:Jan 18:56:35 first day issues: printing, video, keyboard, Guideline2 (dom, api) 18:56:54 JB: Over to keyboard 18:57:00 KFord has joined #ua 18:57:22 Topic: Keyboard access 18:57:25 Action: JS to put the issues in a timeline and post it on the F2F page. 18:57:25 Created ACTION-23 - Put the issues in a timeline and post it on the F2F page. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2008-10-02]. 18:58:12 http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2008/WD-UAAG20-20080925/WD-UAAG20-20080925.html#principle-operable 18:58:23 http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2008/WD-UAAG20-20080925/WD-UAAG20-20080925.html#principle-operable 18:59:23 JA: Two 4.1.XX... 18:59:30 JA: 4.1.xx Specify preferred keystrok 18:59:37 JA: 4.1.xx User Override of Accesskeys 18:59:47 JA: Thought we talked about that last week 19:00:29 JA: So we had action last week...JS to edit to 4.1.10 19:01:05 4.1.xx Specify preferred keystrokes: The user has the option to establish a preferred set of keys that will be used to override *recognized* author supplied keybindings (i.e. access key). 19:01:26 JS: really seems like both are addressing same issue 19:01:38 JS: Maybe if clarified could be made into one 19:01:49 4.1.xx User Override of Accesskeys: The user can override any author supplied content keybinding (i.e. access key) that the user agent can *recognize*. The user must have an option to save the override of user interface keyboard shortcuts so that the rebinding persists beyond the current session. 19:02:32 JS: What is the difference here 19:02:44 KF: 2 weeks ago we talked about this 19:03:05 KF: One of them was about "I like alt-E" 19:03:27 JA: Other one saves your new configuration for when you revisit 19:03:35 JS: I think they can be merged 19:03:57 JS: Key issue is eestablishing prefs for remapping...then prefs are saved beyond current session 19:04:14 JA: Just from looking at it I think we should use the second one 19:04:23 JA: First one doesn't add anything unique 19:04:35 JS: First one talks about establishing prefs in advance 19:05:00 SH: Establish is fixing set of preferred keys 19:05:14 KF: To do the second you would do the first 19:05:27 KF: If you were actually implementing this 19:05:49 KF: Second one needed, first one us superfluous 19:06:12 +1 for keeping the second one. 19:06:26 +1 for the first one 19:06:30 +1 for second 19:06:57 JR: combine them with a few bullets 19:07:05 scribe:jeanne 19:07:35 JR: two weeks ago, they aren't a set of keys that are preferred, it is that you have a key that is preferred for a particular function. 19:08:04 KF: I don't remember if I was referring to the web page, or the browser itself. 19:08:24 JR: In this case , we are talking about the content. 19:09:50 ...there were two levels: One where you wanted to remap everything to one side of the keyboard, the other was to fine-tune specific keys that the user prefers 19:10:14 SH: The user has the option to assign a persistent set of keys to override the content... 19:10:58 JR: When do you do it? Pre-defined before you start working, or once you see the web page, you want to select keys? 19:13:04 SH: There are semantic issues. There is no knowledge in the markup, just executes. 19:13:39 JS: use cases. speech users - map potential keystrokes base on a site. 19:14:19 ... motor-issues, want to limit all sites to only left side of keyboard 19:18:29 Action sharper: To try to combine and clarify the wording of both of the 4.1.XX 19:18:29 Created ACTION-24 - Try to combine and clarify the wording of both of the 4.1.XX [on Simon Harper - due 2008-10-02]. 19:19:23 JB: One more criteria in top to bottom review....consolidation possibilities. 19:20:01 JA: Maybe fits in with conciseness 19:20:11 JB: Or to "organization" 19:20:39 JB: Seems that some people on the group are raising consolidation issues 19:20:46 JA: I can do it 19:21:08 Action : JA, JS to look at consolidation possibilities 19:21:08 Sorry, couldn't find user - JA, 19:21:22 Action : jallan, jeanne to look at consolidation possibilities 19:21:22 Sorry, couldn't find user - jallan, 19:21:22 jeanne will also look at consolitation as part of organization 19:22:20 Topic: 4.1.11 19:22:25 JA: 4.1.11 Intergroup Navigation: Allow the user to navigate between and within groups of focusable controls (e.g., toolbars, dialogs, panels, etc. 19:22:32 KF: Wrinkle... 19:23:03 KF: In ARIA...funny thing is ARIA is about creating these rich controlks etc in content 19:23:33 KF: But important that not enough to call things a tree, must behave like one 19:24:13 JS: In Dave P. wanted us to use among instead of between 19:24:24 JB: THen Al G. said Group-by group 19:24:59 KF: THis was referring to the user interface 19:27:46 KF: This is so you don't have to navigate by tabbing 20 times...can jump by groups 19:32:14 AG editorial: So say from group to group and avoid the collision with correct cardinality usage (between for two, among for more than two). 19:33:20 rrsagent, make minutes 19:33:20 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/09/25-ua-minutes.html KFord 19:33:45 -sharper 19:33:48 -KFord 19:33:53 zakim, who's here? 19:33:53 On the phone I see Jeanne, jallan, Jan, Judy 19:33:54 On IRC I see KFord, judy, Jan, sharper, RRSAgent, Zakim, jallan, jeanne, trackbot 19:34:15 zakim, please part 19:34:15 leaving. As of this point the attendees were Jeanne, KFord, jallan, sharper, Jan, Judy 19:34:15 Zakim has left #ua 19:34:52 rrsagent, draft minutes 19:34:52 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/09/25-ua-minutes.html KFord 19:36:14 rrsagent, please part 19:36:14 I see 13 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/25-ua-actions.rdf : 19:36:14 ACTION: kford look at section 2 and see what questions we need answered at face to face. [1] 19:36:14 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/25-ua-irc#T18-26-17 19:36:14 ACTION: KF to review Principle 2 and look for issues that the team will need to discuss at the F2F. [2] 19:36:14 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/25-ua-irc#T18-26-26 19:36:14 ACTION: JA to Feasibility and testability [3] 19:36:14 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/25-ua-irc#T18-44-41 19:36:14 ACTION: JR to Compatibility & testability [4] 19:36:14 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/25-ua-irc#T18-45-00 19:36:14 ACTION: KF to Clarity, conciseness, testability [5] 19:36:14 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/25-ua-irc#T18-45-23 19:36:14 ACTION: JB to Clarrity, conciseness, comprehensiveness [6] 19:36:14 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/25-ua-irc#T18-46-09 19:36:14 ACTION: SH to Feasibility and comprehensiveness [7] 19:36:14 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/25-ua-irc#T18-46-56 19:36:14 ACTION: sharper to Feasibility and comprehensiveness [8] 19:36:14 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/25-ua-irc#T18-47-14 19:36:14 ACTION: JS to Organization, clarity and compatibility [9] 19:36:14 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/25-ua-irc#T18-47-54 19:36:14 ACTION: JS to put the issues in a timeline and post it on the F2F page. [10] 19:36:14 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/25-ua-irc#T18-57-25 19:36:14 ACTION: sharper to To try to combine and clarify the wording of both of the 4.1.XX [11] 19:36:14 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/25-ua-irc#T19-18-29 19:36:14 ACTION: JA, JS to look at consolidation possibilities [12] 19:36:14 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/25-ua-irc#T19-21-08 19:36:14 ACTION: jallan, jeanne to look at consolidation possibilities [13] 19:36:14 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/25-ua-irc#T19-21-22