IRC log of rif on 2008-09-23

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:58:50 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rif
14:58:50 [RRSAgent]
logging to
14:59:01 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make minutes
14:59:01 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ChrisW
14:59:13 [ChrisW]
Meeting: RIF Telecon 23 Sep 2008
14:59:21 [ChrisW]
Chair: Chris Welty
14:59:50 [ChrisW]
15:00:02 [ChrisW]
ChrisW has changed the topic to: 23 Sept RIF Telecon Agenda
15:00:17 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make logs public
15:00:36 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Admin
15:00:40 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Liason
15:00:44 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Publicity
15:00:54 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Action Review
15:00:59 [ChrisW]
agenda+ F2F11
15:01:13 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Core task force debrief
15:01:18 [ChrisW]
agenda+ PRD task force debrief
15:01:26 [Zakim]
SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
15:01:33 [Zakim]
15:01:34 [Zakim]
15:01:37 [Zakim]
15:01:38 [ChrisW]
agenda+ Test Cases
15:01:39 [Zakim]
15:01:44 [ChrisW]
agenda+ AOB
15:01:52 [StellaMitchell]
StellaMitchell has joined #rif
15:02:43 [DaveReynolds]
DaveReynolds has joined #rif
15:03:04 [LeoraMorgenstern]
LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif
15:03:19 [Zakim]
15:03:30 [ChrisW]
zakim, ibm is temporarily me
15:03:30 [Zakim]
+ChrisW; got it
15:03:32 [Zakim]
+ +1.212.781.aaaa
15:03:46 [LeoraMorgenstern]
zakim, aaaa is me
15:03:46 [Zakim]
+LeoraMorgenstern; got it
15:03:48 [Zakim]
15:03:54 [Zakim]
+Dave_Reynolds (was ??P51)
15:04:19 [Zakim]
15:04:23 [StellaMitchell]
zakim, ibm is temporarily me
15:04:29 [Zakim]
+StellaMitchell; got it
15:04:31 [Zakim]
+ +1.503.533.aabb
15:04:50 [Hassan]
Hassan has joined #rif
15:04:59 [Zakim]
15:05:47 [Zakim]
15:06:14 [sandro]
sandro has joined #rif
15:06:24 [sandro]
15:06:27 [sandro]
zakim, who is here?
15:06:27 [Zakim]
On the phone I see [NRCC], Mike_Dean, ChrisW, LeoraMorgenstern, Dave_Reynolds, StellaMitchell, +1.503.533.aabb, Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), Sandro
15:06:28 [ChrisW]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:06:30 [Zakim]
On IRC I see sandro, Hassan, LeoraMorgenstern, DaveReynolds, StellaMitchell, RRSAgent, Zakim, mdean, ChrisW, Harold, trackbot
15:06:32 [Zakim]
On the phone I see [NRCC], Mike_Dean, ChrisW, LeoraMorgenstern, Dave_Reynolds, StellaMitchell, +1.503.533.aabb, Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), Sandro
15:06:48 [ChrisW]
zakim, aabb is GaryHallmark
15:06:48 [Zakim]
+GaryHallmark; got it
15:07:37 [LeoraMorgenstern]
zakim, mute me
15:07:37 [Zakim]
LeoraMorgenstern should now be muted
15:07:42 [ChrisW]
zakim, pick a victim
15:07:42 [Zakim]
Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose LeoraMorgenstern (muted)
15:07:49 [LeoraMorgenstern]
yes, I can scribe
15:07:53 [LeoraMorgenstern]
zakim, unmute me
15:07:53 [Zakim]
LeoraMorgenstern should no longer be muted
15:07:55 [ChrisW]
Scribe: LeoraMorgenstern
15:08:03 [ChrisW]
zakim, take up item 1
15:08:03 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Admin" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:08:17 [ChrisW]
15:08:26 [ChrisW]
PROPOSED: Accept last week's telecon minutes
15:08:29 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Above, minutes from last week's telecon
15:08:31 [Zakim]
15:08:40 [Zakim]
15:08:41 [ChrisW]
RESOLVED: Accept last week's telecon minutes
15:09:45 [StellaMitchell]
double quotes in PS
15:09:48 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Agenda amendments? Harold may have something --- possibly to be determined later in the call, since neither Harold nor chris remembers
15:09:59 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
15:09:59 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Liason" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:10:32 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Dave Reynolds had started to do some work looking on OWL rule profile
15:10:56 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Dave: Translation ought to be possible, but there are two issues:
15:11:06 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Dave: First issues: data type mismatch
15:11:34 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Dave: But can restrict to datatypes that both OWL and RIF support
15:12:01 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Dave: so there is a way to generate safe RIF Core rule set
15:12:23 [DaveReynolds]
15:13:05 [Gary]
Gary has joined #rif
15:13:24 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Above link gives types that are and are not supported in OWL RL
15:13:26 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
15:13:26 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Publicity" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:13:42 [sandro]
(excellent work Dave, thank you.... thinking about the issues you raise, and how to progress with them.....)
15:13:54 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Chris: Good number of public comments
15:14:11 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Sandro: probably okay. (11 public comments)
15:14:21 [PaulVincent]
PaulVincent has joined #RIF
15:14:42 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Chris: There are a couple of new comments, for which I've set up wiki pages; I've sent 3 responses out; Also have emailed a draft of response to Peter Patel-Schneider
15:15:36 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Chris: responses are accessible from rif wiki home page
15:15:53 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
15:15:53 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "Action Review" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:17:21 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Action 576 on Leora: continued until tomorrow night
15:17:21 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - 576
15:19:04 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Action 573 on Sandro to ask for review from OWL wg on RDF & OWL
15:19:04 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - 573
15:19:18 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Sandro's action 573 is continued
15:19:58 [Hassan]
15:20:06 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Sandro's action 565 depends on Adrian sending ssh key: will straighten it out at f2f
15:20:43 [LeoraMorgenstern]
actions 563, 564, and 565 are continued
15:21:13 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
15:21:13 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "F2F11" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:21:13 [LeoraMorgenstern]
chris: pending review: some prd issues still under discussion: hopefully will be discussed at f2f
15:21:16 [LeoraMorgenstern]
same for ??
15:21:28 [LeoraMorgenstern]
f2f11 starts this Friday.
15:21:42 [LeoraMorgenstern]
15:21:46 [LeoraMorgenstern]
15:23:02 [Zakim]
15:23:33 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
15:23:33 [Zakim]
I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, ChrisW
15:23:38 [LeoraMorgenstern]
15:23:39 [ChrisW]
ack l
15:23:42 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
15:23:42 [Zakim]
agendum 6. "Core task force debrief" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:23:59 [csma]
csma has joined #rif
15:24:15 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Harold's update on Core task force (telecon on Monday, Sept. 22)
15:24:26 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Harold: We went through all open issues, most of which came from Dave.
15:24:38 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Harold: Much of it had already been resolved by David's previous emails.
15:24:59 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Harold: In our notes can be found current state of resolution to proposed issues.
15:25:40 [ChrisW]
15:26:13 [DaveReynolds]
Issue 76 is actually special case of Issue 71 which is also agreed within the task force
15:26:47 [ChrisW]
PROPOSED: RIF Core will include member (#) but syntactically restricted its use in rule bodies.
15:27:10 [DaveReynolds]
There was an extra clause in the PROPOSED member resolution.
15:27:31 [Zakim]
15:27:46 [csma]
zakim, christian is me
15:27:46 [Zakim]
+csma; got it
15:27:53 [csma]
zakim, mute me
15:27:53 [Zakim]
csma should now be muted
15:28:19 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Harold will have action to list in email proposals on which there is consensus.
15:28:26 [ChrisW]
action: harold to summarize proposed resolutions from Core task force
15:28:26 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-578 - Summarize proposed resolutions from Core task force [on Harold Boley - due 2008-09-30].
15:28:47 [Gary]
zakim, who is on the call?
15:28:47 [Zakim]
On the phone I see [NRCC], Mike_Dean, ChrisW, LeoraMorgenstern, Dave_Reynolds, StellaMitchell, GaryHallmark, Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), Sandro.a, Michael_Kifer, csma (muted)
15:28:50 [LeoraMorgenstern]
chris: are there any that are still contentious?
15:29:02 [DaveReynolds]
Issue 72 is still open
15:29:07 [Gary]
zakim, GaryHallmark is me
15:29:07 [Zakim]
+Gary; got it
15:29:56 [LeoraMorgenstern]
harold: existing contentious issues include: haven't worked out how inclusion of or in rule bodies affects safety.
15:30:35 [LeoraMorgenstern]
dave: issues 74, 71, 76 are prety clear.
15:30:36 [Zakim]
15:31:40 [LeoraMorgenstern]
dave: issue 48 --- membership issue --- still needs discussion, but within core group, there is compromise resolution. Issues 70, 72 still need discussion
15:33:01 [ChrisW]
PROPOSED: Core will have unrestricted equality in conditions, closing ISSUE-76
15:33:56 [LeoraMorgenstern]
dave: issue 76 was special case of issue 71, so worth rephrasing and then closing 71
15:34:19 [LeoraMorgenstern]
dave: (that is, 71 was rephrased)
15:34:20 [DaveReynolds]
PROPOSED: Core should keep unrestricted equality and external function and predicate calls in rule bodies and keep external functions calls in rule heads.
15:34:43 [LeoraMorgenstern]
dave: above covers both 71 and 76
15:34:58 [LeoraMorgenstern]
chris: but this is more extensive than what was in agenda today.
15:35:09 [DaveReynolds]
15:35:10 [LeoraMorgenstern]
chris: Let's wait on this, and pass it at f2f.
15:35:37 [LeoraMorgenstern]
chris: any discussion about this broader resolution, which covers external calls as well as equality?
15:35:47 [LeoraMorgenstern]
no questions, no discussion about this.
15:36:00 [LeoraMorgenstern]
chris: this looks pretty good. No problems; we should be able to pass it at f2f.
15:36:12 [ChrisW]
15:36:17 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
15:36:17 [Zakim]
agendum 7. "PRD task force debrief" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:36:44 [csma]
zakim, unmute me
15:36:45 [Zakim]
csma should no longer be muted
15:37:02 [csma]
15:37:37 [csma]
15:39:24 [LeoraMorgenstern]
csma: we have a (quasi) frozen draft, but it doesn't have everything that we want to have in it.
15:40:24 [LeoraMorgenstern]
gary: we'd need someone to show us how FLD can do aggregation.
15:40:58 [LeoraMorgenstern]
me/ gary, you need to know how fld can do aggregation in order to share condition language?
15:41:08 [LeoraMorgenstern]
me/ gary, or in order to share something else?
15:41:26 [Harold]
Aggregation in DLV, SPARQL, etc.
15:42:16 [Hassan]
Aggregates as used in PRD is operational - see:
15:42:55 [Hassan]
s/Aggregates /Aggregation /
15:43:16 [LeoraMorgenstern]
mkifer: rather complicated to do this in FLD.
15:43:32 [Hassan]
15:43:45 [LeoraMorgenstern]
mkifer: complicated in logical languages because of recursion.
15:44:58 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Hassan: Should not be that complicated because aggregates as used in P
15:45:34 [Hassan]
15:45:44 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Hassan: in PRD are operational, as posted above.
15:46:00 [LeoraMorgenstern]
michael: probably what is being asked for will be feasible.
15:47:54 [ChrisW]
15:47:57 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Gary: Need to work on conflict resolution issues on PRD
15:48:26 [Zakim]
15:48:50 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
15:48:50 [Zakim]
agendum 8. "Test Cases" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:49:58 [csma]
zakim, mute me
15:49:58 [Zakim]
csma should now be muted
15:50:30 [LeoraMorgenstern]
[Note: conflict resolution is issue 64]
15:50:38 [ChrisW]
*PROPOSED:* Each RIF test case MUST, eventually, be provided in RIF XML, and MAY be provided in some syntax for which a translator-to-XML has been promised. The translator SHOULD be available for use by the WG to check the translation.
15:53:29 [csma]
to clarify: I am not against normative PS, for dialect where the stakeholder want one, and provided that a PS is not normative accross dialects. But even for BLD, where people seem to want a normative PS, I think very strongly that it is not a priority for this WG
15:54:43 [Hassan]
15:55:01 [csma]
ack hassan
15:55:19 [LeoraMorgenstern]
chris: this does depend on Hassan finishing up the translator.
15:55:41 [LeoraMorgenstern]
hassan: it is somewhat more difficult than expected to work on the P
15:55:45 [DaveReynolds]
15:55:45 [LeoraMorgenstern]
hassan: on the P
15:56:05 [LeoraMorgenstern]
hassan: on the PS to xml translator, because the spec/requirements aren't clear
15:56:20 [LeoraMorgenstern]
hassan: I had a prototype of translator with strict PS syntax
15:56:25 [csma]
15:56:37 [LeoraMorgenstern]
hassan: because tokenizing was sound: everything was put into double quotes, and you didn't have to worry about weird syntax
15:56:49 [LeoraMorgenstern]
hassan: but currently, there is some inconsistency which needs to be fixed.
15:56:57 [LeoraMorgenstern]
hassan: we need t have an understanding of what a token means.
15:57:16 [LeoraMorgenstern]
chris: people do understand this --- just must iron out errors
15:57:51 [csma]
15:57:54 [LeoraMorgenstern]
hassan: yes, I am confident that it will be straightened out.. Due to my schedule (traveling through month of October), will be hard to totallly finish up, but am trying to get something working.
15:58:02 [DaveReynolds]
ack me
15:58:51 [LeoraMorgenstern]
dave: Jeff Pan has a student Stuart Taylor, who had an implementation of early PS syntax, and is now trying to work on updates to PS syntax; perhaps those efforts can be merged, but possibly not.
15:59:07 [LeoraMorgenstern]
hassan: Good. Perhaps we should have a task force on this issue.
15:59:21 [csma]
ack me
15:59:26 [LeoraMorgenstern]
chris: Okay, we'll send out msg to find out how many are interested in participating
15:59:51 [LeoraMorgenstern]
csma: real priority is finding test cases that we recommend ... rather than working on an implementation.
16:00:10 [LeoraMorgenstern]
csma: we will finally converge, but I'm afraid it will take some time.
16:02:10 [LeoraMorgenstern]
hassan: we could use the original PS to express test cases. For that, the tool is already available.
16:03:06 [LeoraMorgenstern]
csma: let's take whatever Hassan already has, and just use it.
16:03:09 [Harold]
16:03:47 [Gary]
we don't need a tool to write more test cases. Just to execute them, if at some time someone has something that can execute BLD-RIF-XML.
16:04:04 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Hassan: but admittedly, the examples are hard to write in original PS
16:04:19 [LeoraMorgenstern]
csma: but easier to write the examples in original PS than in xML.
16:04:44 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Hassan: I've posted the documentation and results; I can also provide and package the code.
16:05:00 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Hassan: this takes some time off other thing.
16:05:13 [StellaMitchell]
yes, this sounds good
16:05:27 [Harold]
16:05:31 [Gary]
I'd rather hope that we'll have a tool for the APS
16:05:46 [LeoraMorgenstern]
I am afraid that fewer people will submit test cases if they know they must submit them in original PS.
16:06:01 [LeoraMorgenstern]
As it is, most cases that have been submitted are not in original PS.
16:06:16 [StellaMitchell]
leora, they don't have to submit in original PS, we will fix them up for them
16:06:26 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Or at least, were not first submitted in original PS.
16:06:34 [sandro]
Sandro: We have to have names for these two different versions of the PS, so they can be named in the Test Case
16:06:44 [LeoraMorgenstern]
stella, yes, I realize.
16:06:52 [csma]
16:07:01 [StellaMitchell]
sandro, don't you think that will be more confusing
16:07:23 [LeoraMorgenstern]
No, I agree with Sandro; it's good to make the distinction clear.
16:08:38 [LeoraMorgenstern]
mkifer: Original PS is not subsumed by new PS
16:08:42 [csma]
zakim, mute me
16:08:42 [Zakim]
csma should now be muted
16:08:56 [ChrisW]
in "abridged" PS: "aaa" is equivalient to "aaa"^^xsd:string
16:09:31 [csma]
ack harold
16:10:25 [Hassan]
16:10:32 [LeoraMorgenstern]
chris: so we move forward in parallel: we continue working on test cases, and as presentation syntax improves, changes are incorporated into test change document, and in parallel, we work on implementation of translation using new spec.
16:10:33 [Hassan]
16:11:34 [csma]
q+ about keeping open the possibility to submit in any language provided someone commits to a translator
16:11:59 [csma]
q+ to ask about keeping open the possibility to submit in any language provided someone commits to a translator
16:12:06 [StellaMitchell]
16:12:09 [LeoraMorgenstern]
16:12:37 [sandro]
The question is how many of the current test cases are in which syntax?
16:13:13 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Sandro, Stella is pretty much the only one who has been careful to work in original PS.
16:13:18 [LeoraMorgenstern]
The rest of us have been much sloppier.
16:13:21 [ChrisW]
16:13:24 [ChrisW]
ack c
16:13:24 [Zakim]
csma, you wanted to ask about keeping open the possibility to submit in any language provided someone commits to a translator
16:13:27 [LeoraMorgenstern]
So we'll need to rework our cases.
16:13:34 [StellaMitchell]
leora, most of the test cases are in ps
16:13:38 [sandro]
I guess when we have Hassan's code we can see which test cases actually parse. :-)
16:13:53 [csma]
ack csma
16:14:00 [Hassan]
Suspense ... :-)
16:14:06 [LeoraMorgenstern]
chris: no need for resolution, this will just be our mode of operation.
16:14:18 [sandro]
(we could call the the PS's PS1/ and PS/2 :-)
16:14:56 [StellaMitchell]
it just makes it harder for reviewers
16:15:04 [StellaMitchell]
but ok with me
16:15:16 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Stella, It makes it harder for us.
16:15:21 [StellaMitchell]
16:15:24 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Not just the reviewers.
16:15:31 [StellaMitchell]
we are part of the reviewers
16:15:47 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Right, but we're also the translators.
16:15:54 [csma]
satella, why does it meke it more diffivcult for you?
16:16:05 [LeoraMorgenstern]
The reviewers will presumably be getting the translated cases?
16:16:17 [ChrisW]
*PROPOSED:* Each RIF test case MUST, eventually, be provided in RIF XML, and MAY be provided in some syntax for which a translator-to-XML has been promised. The translator SHOULD be available for use by the WG to check the translation.
16:16:23 [csma]
16:16:24 [StellaMitchell]
csma, if we have the reverse translator, it's ok
16:16:38 [csma]
hassan just said we have
16:18:45 [DaveReynolds]
I think Stuart's old tool worked both ways, might be able to adapt that.
16:19:01 [sandro]
ACTION: Sandro implement RIF-XML to PS translator
16:19:01 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-579 - Implement RIF-XML to PS translator [on Sandro Hawke - due 2008-09-30].
16:19:10 [ChrisW]
PROPOSED: Each RIF test case MUST, eventually, be provided in RIF XML, and MAY be provided in some syntax for which a translator-to-XML has been promised. The translator SHOULD be available for use by the WG to check the translation.
16:19:11 [csma]
zakim, mute me
16:19:11 [Zakim]
csma should now be muted
16:19:20 [Gary]
sandro, the only "tricky" part is divining the Prefix() to make CURIEs look good
16:19:22 [StellaMitchell]
the discussino has covered it
16:19:25 [LeoraMorgenstern]
Chris, the resolution seems fine.
16:19:25 [StellaMitchell]
seems fine
16:19:43 [LeoraMorgenstern]
It's the mode of operation --- working in original PS --- that makes life somewhat harder for Stella, Adrian, and me.
16:19:50 [StellaMitchell]
no, leora
16:19:52 [ChrisW]
RESOLVED: Each RIF test case MUST, eventually, be provided in RIF XML, and MAY be provided in some syntax for which a translator-to-XML has been promised. The translator SHOULD be available for use by the WG to check the translation.
16:19:57 [sandro]
Gary, it's not hard if you don't care how good they look. :-) (seriously, I've written that kind of code 20 times.)
16:20:31 [DaveReynolds]
Gary, Jena has a "localname" algorithm that splits off the NCName end off a URI just a few lines of code.
16:20:40 [ChrisW]
zakim, next item
16:20:40 [Zakim]
agendum 9. "AOB" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:20:54 [csma]
zakim, unmute me
16:20:54 [Zakim]
csma should no longer be muted
16:21:32 [Hassan]
+1 on the telcon
16:22:05 [csma]
+1 to adjourn
16:22:14 [Zakim]
16:22:17 [Zakim]
16:22:18 [Zakim]
16:22:19 [Zakim]
16:22:21 [Zakim]
16:22:22 [ChrisW]
zakim, list attendees
16:22:22 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been [NRCC], Mike_Dean, ChrisW, +1.212.781.aaaa, LeoraMorgenstern, Dave_Reynolds, StellaMitchell, +1.503.533.aabb, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, Sandro,
16:22:26 [Zakim]
... Michael_Kifer, csma, Gary
16:22:40 [Zakim]
16:22:42 [ChrisW]
Regrets: JosDeBruijn AxelPolleres AdrianPaschke MohamedZergaoui ChanghaiKe
16:22:50 [Zakim]
16:22:52 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:22:52 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ChrisW
16:23:03 [csma]
zakim, who is on the phone?
16:23:03 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ChrisW, LeoraMorgenstern, Sandro.a, csma
16:23:11 [Zakim]
16:27:23 [Zakim]
16:27:57 [Zakim]
16:27:58 [Zakim]
16:27:58 [Zakim]
SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
16:27:59 [Zakim]
Attendees were [NRCC], Mike_Dean, ChrisW, +1.212.781.aaaa, LeoraMorgenstern, Dave_Reynolds, StellaMitchell, +1.503.533.aabb, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, Sandro, Michael_Kifer, csma, Gary
16:28:20 [csma]
csma has left #rif