IRC log of wam on 2008-09-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

11:03:37 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #wam
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logging to
11:04:05 [Zakim]
11:04:11 [ArtB]
11:04:14 [ArtB]
Chair: Art
11:04:19 [ArtB]
Scribe: Art
11:04:52 [ArtB]
ScribeNick: ArtB
11:05:20 [ArtB]
Present: Art, Arve, Claudio, Richard_Tibbett(Orange), Josh
11:05:38 [ArtB]
Meeting: 18 September 2008
11:05:44 [Zakim]
+ +44.777.183.aadd
11:05:48 [ArtB]
Meeting: Widgets Voice Conference
11:05:55 [ArtB]
Date: 18 September 2008
11:06:06 [ArtB]
Present+ David_Rogers
11:06:17 [ArtB]
zakim, aadd is David_Rogers
11:06:17 [Zakim]
+David_Rogers; got it
11:07:07 [marcos]
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11:07:58 [ArtB]
Topic: Agenda Review
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AB: Agenda is:
11:08:17 [ArtB]
AB: any changes?
11:08:23 [ArtB]
11:08:27 [Benoit]
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Topic: Annoucements
11:08:39 [ArtB]
Present+ Benoit
11:08:48 [Zakim]
11:09:19 [marcos]
zakim, ??P14 is me
11:09:19 [Zakim]
11:09:19 [Zakim]
+marcos; got it
11:09:31 [ArtB]
Present+ Marcos
11:10:34 [ArtB]
DR: how to we proceed with OMTP's Dependency input?
11:11:05 [ArtB]
AB: we can discuss that on the mail list since it is directed to the P&C spec
11:11:19 [ArtB]
DR: I'm OK with using the mail list to discuss
11:11:27 [ArtB]
RT: OK with me too
11:12:02 [MikeSmith]
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s/Topic: Annoucements/Topic: OMTP Dependency/
11:12:33 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, call Mike-Mobile
11:12:33 [Zakim]
ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
11:12:35 [Zakim]
11:13:33 [ArtB]
MC: do you think the reqs are OK in this regard?
11:13:39 [ArtB]
DR: yes
11:13:47 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, drop Mike
11:13:47 [Zakim]
Mike is being disconnected
11:13:49 [Zakim]
11:13:56 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, call Mike-Mobile
11:13:56 [Zakim]
ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
11:13:58 [Zakim]
11:14:09 [ArtB]
RT: can I start a discussion about Dependencies now on the mail list?
11:14:22 [ArtB]
MC: yes; comments at any time on any spec are always welcome
11:14:32 [Zakim]
- +44.797.352.aaaa
11:14:46 [ArtB]
Topic: Annoucements
11:14:54 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, drop Mike
11:14:54 [Zakim]
Mike is being disconnected
11:14:55 [Zakim]
11:14:57 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, call Mike-Mobile
11:14:57 [Zakim]
ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
11:14:59 [Zakim]
11:15:08 [ArtB]
RT: he was OMTP's author for the dependency input
11:15:11 [drogersuk]
drogersuk has joined #wam
11:15:14 [ArtB]
... he works at Orange
11:15:31 [Zakim]
+ +44.208.849.aaee
11:15:50 [ArtB]
AB: can we get a short update of the BONDI highlights from last week's meeting?
11:16:03 [ArtB]
DR: I can try to send something out by the end of the week
11:16:48 [ArtB]
... We need to update the BONDI doc to reflect the latest Widgets work that has been done
11:17:18 [ArtB]
... We will continue to work on the DigSig spec; mostly via Mark Priestly
11:17:40 [ArtB]
... If Marcos needs some help, please ask us
11:17:56 [ArtB]
Present+ Mike
11:18:13 [ArtB]
Topic: Requirement #1 LC
11:18:18 [drogersuk]
OMTP are happy to offer assistance to webapps during the XML digital signature discussions
11:18:42 [ArtB]
AB: what remains to be done to get the LC #1 DoC doc up-to-date
11:19:14 [ArtB]
MC: I just need to align the document with the latest emails on the list
11:19:26 [ArtB]
... Still need to get some feedback from the MWBP
11:19:41 [ArtB]
... They haven't replied to my deadline with any objections
11:19:56 [ArtB]
... They can of course submit comments for LC #2
11:20:08 [ArtB]
... The DoC doc is 90% complete.
11:20:58 [ArtB]
AB: I want to complete the DoC #1 doc before we start the LC #2 review period
11:21:16 [ArtB]
Topic: Core API & Events Status
11:21:46 [ArtB]
AB: during Turin we agreed to publish this doc in September
11:21:51 [ArtB]
... What's the status?
11:22:22 [ArtB]
Arve: what remains to be done
11:22:29 [ArtB]
... the update event
11:23:02 [ArtB]
and one of the features
11:23:39 [ArtB]
AB: the latest ED is
11:24:35 [Zakim]
11:24:54 [ArtB]
MC: what do you need to define the states?
11:25:08 [ArtB]
Arve: I'll need to check the P&C spec
11:25:11 [Zakim]
11:25:45 [ArtB]
... I think I have the info I need (from P&C)
11:26:28 [ArtB]
AB: what about the Icons issue?
11:26:51 [ArtB]
Arve: I'm not comfortable with our current level of support but we can live with this as an open issue for FPWD
11:27:02 [Zakim]
11:27:28 [ArtB]
AB: what about the WindowWindow Interface issue?
11:27:31 [Zakim]
11:27:36 [ArtB]
Arve: I talked to Cameron about this
11:27:42 [marcos]
11:27:52 [timeless]
zakim +??P14 is marcos
11:28:11 [ArtB]
... we may need to add some related text to the P&C spec
11:28:40 [ArtB]
AB: do we need to make the link before FPWD?
11:28:45 [ArtB]
MC: no, I don't think so
11:28:51 [ArtB]
Arve: I agree with Marcos
11:29:56 [ArtB]
AB: I think it would be good to provide a bit more detail about the Issues identified in the spec
11:30:31 [timeless]
zakim, +??P14 is marcos
11:30:31 [Zakim]
sorry, timeless, I do not recognize a party named '+??P14'
11:30:45 [ArtB]
Arve: what is the process for agreeing on FPWD?
11:30:48 [timeless]
zakim, ??P14 is marcos
11:30:48 [Zakim]
+marcos; got it
11:31:42 [ArtB]
AB: we need to record an agreement to publish
11:32:00 [ArtB]
AB: I propose we publish the API and Event Editor's Draft as a FPWD
11:32:06 [ArtB]
AB: any objections?
11:32:10 [ArtB]
11:33:03 [ArtB]
CV: I'd like a clarification about message exchange between widgets
11:33:13 [ArtB]
... Is this related to the widget context?
11:33:22 [ArtB]
... Also is this related to HTML5 postMessage?
11:33:52 [ArtB]
Arve: cross-widget communication is something that belongs in an Extended API
11:34:24 [ArtB]
... there are some security implications as well
11:34:41 [ArtB]
... UA should have some configuration mechanism about its usage (or not)
11:37:20 [ArtB]
RESOLUTION: we will publish the API and Events Editor's Draft as a FPWD
11:38:10 [ArtB]
ACTION: Arve notify Art when the API and Events API is ready for Publication
11:38:10 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-247 - Notify Art when the API and Events API is ready for Publication [on Arve Bersvendsen - due 2008-09-25].
11:38:52 [ArtB]
Topic: Status of Automatic Updates spec
11:39:06 [ArtB]
AB: would like a brief status
11:39:27 [ArtB]
MC: I've had some other higher priority stuff come up
11:39:44 [ArtB]
... hope to have it ready by early next week
11:39:57 [ArtB]
AB: are you blocked on anyone?
11:40:05 [ArtB]
MC: no
11:40:17 [ArtB]
... Mark Baker's etag concerns could affect it
11:41:05 [ArtB]
Topic: Proposal to Rename the Widget specs
11:41:31 [ArtB]
AB: what is the motivation and rationale for a change?
11:41:48 [ArtB]
MC: there is confusion about WebApps' widgets and "web widgets"
11:42:17 [ArtB]
... the new proposal will force the reader to seek clarity by reading the Abstract and/or Intro
11:42:35 [marcos]
Widget Packages and User Agents 1.0:
11:42:36 [ArtB]
... it makes "Package" primary
11:43:04 [ArtB]
AB: what do people think?
11:44:10 [ArtB]
BS: some of the specs are not generic to the UA
11:44:50 [ArtB]
CV: I share Benoit's concern
11:45:06 [Benoit]
the user Agent defined elements are only related to the packaging
11:45:25 [ArtB]
Arve: I'm not too fond of either of these proposals
11:45:26 [claudio]
"Widget Packages 1.0 and User Agents conformance criteria: xxxx"
11:45:38 [ArtB]
... I'm afraid there could be confusion with those too
11:46:08 [ArtB]
Arve: how about dropping Widgets altogether
11:46:21 [ArtB]
BS: we need to keep Widgts
11:46:30 [ArtB]
Arve: use Web Apps rather than Widgets
11:46:49 [ArtB]
... I understand the Marketing usefulness of Widgets
11:47:28 [ArtB]
... We are specifiying stuff for Web Apps that we call "widgets"
11:47:28 [Benoit]
proposition: "User Agent Widget Pakaging format"
11:47:56 [ArtB]
AB: any other opinions?
11:47:57 [marcos]
Packages for Client-side Web Applications and User Agent Conforming Criteria
11:48:10 [ArtB]
DR: we've had similar discussions in OMTP
11:48:10 [arve]
(word bloat)
11:48:22 [ArtB]
... the point of agreement is that we are talking about Web Applications
11:48:27 [marcos]
11:50:14 [ArtB]
AB: without some compelling reasons I think we should stay with the names we already use
11:50:26 [ArtB]
... If we make a change, it would be the third name
11:50:43 [ArtB]
... We already have at least one doc in LC and it seems too late to make a change
11:50:53 [ArtB]
Arve: I tend to agree with Art
11:51:05 [ArtB]
... We need to make our definition the mainstream name that is used
11:52:18 [ArtB]
MC: OK, let's keep it as is
11:52:35 [ArtB]
... We need to keep educating people about our definition
11:52:57 [ArtB]
... I agree we can have the most authoritative definition in the industry
11:53:31 [ArtB]
Arve: FWIW, Google already agrees with our definition
11:53:43 [ArtB]
... take a look at wikipedia
11:53:44 [Zakim]
11:54:07 [ArtB]
AB: I propose we keep the names of our documents as is
11:54:12 [ArtB]
AB: any objections?
11:54:15 [ArtB]
11:54:21 [Zakim]
11:54:29 [ArtB]
RESOLUTION: we will not change the names of our Widgets specs
11:54:49 [ArtB]
Topic: Widgets V2/NextGen Feature List
11:55:15 [ArtB]
AB: want to get consensus on how we move forward
11:55:59 [Zakim]
11:56:09 [ArtB]
CV: there is some prelim work that needs to be done first
11:56:19 [ArtB]
... for example, need to get some type of scope around V2
11:56:32 [Zakim]
11:56:36 [Zakim]
- +44.208.849.aaee
11:56:55 [timeless]
the cell network here is giving me network busy and kicking me off
11:57:23 [ArtB]
... We may get lots of additional requirements
11:57:52 [ArtB]
... Regarding a doc or wiki, I think we need to know what we plan to add
11:58:39 [ArtB]
... Regarding V1.0 reqs, we didn't do a lot of Use Case work
11:58:50 [ArtB]
... We should probably do some UC work for v2.0
11:59:04 [ArtB]
MC: I agree with Claudio re UCs for v2.0
11:59:27 [ArtB]
AB: so you support doing some UC work for v2.0?
11:59:29 [ArtB]
MC: yes
12:00:04 [ArtB]
AB: any other comments?
12:00:13 [ArtB]
AB: I support doing UC work for v2.0
12:00:45 [ArtB]
... My only concern is that it not take away time/resources from our 1.0 work
12:00:59 [ArtB]
MC: agree on the resource issue
12:02:30 [ArtB]
AB: seems like we should document the general ideas we have now for v2.0
12:02:43 [ArtB]
... but not do any detailed work until next year
12:03:05 [ArtB]
... Don't want to disrupt v1.0 spec work
12:04:30 [ArtB]
AB: Claudio, Marcos - can we start using a wiki now?
12:04:51 [ArtB]
... And defer the question about using a document for a few months?
12:04:57 [ArtB]
CV: that's OK with me
12:05:02 [ArtB]
MC: yes, that's OK
12:05:14 [ArtB]
... and if Claudio wants to take the initial lead that's OK
12:05:52 [ArtB]
MS: Claudio should be able to gain access without me getting involved
12:06:40 [ArtB]
Topic: etag attr
12:06:52 [ArtB]
AB: we don't have time to discuss this today
12:07:03 [ArtB]
... if you have any comments, send them to public-webapps
12:07:10 [ArtB]
Topic: AOB
12:07:14 [ArtB]
AB: any topics?
12:08:27 [Zakim]
12:08:28 [Zakim]
12:08:29 [Zakim]
12:08:30 [Zakim]
12:08:30 [Zakim]
12:08:32 [Zakim]
- +39.011.228.aacc
12:08:33 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, drop Mike
12:08:33 [Zakim]
Mike is being disconnected
12:08:35 [Zakim]
12:08:56 [drogersuk]
drogersuk has left #wam
12:08:58 [ArtB]
AB: regarding TAG joint meeting, Roy Fielding isn't a member of the TAG any more; Stuart Williams will not be in Mandelieu
12:09:17 [ArtB]
... that means it may be difficult to get some f2f time with at TAG member but I will try
12:09:23 [ArtB]
AB: anything else?
12:09:26 [ArtB]
12:09:32 [ArtB]
AB: Meeting Adjourned
12:09:37 [arve]
arve has left #wam
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RRSAgent, make log public
12:10:12 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, make minutes
12:10:12 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ArtB
12:11:30 [Zakim]
12:11:31 [Zakim]
IA_WebApps(Widgets)7:00AM has ended
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Attendees were +44.797.352.aaaa, Art_Barstow, +47.23.69.aabb, arve, +39.011.228.aacc, Josh_Soref, +44.777.183.aadd, David_Rogers, Caroline, marcos, Mike, +44.208.849.aaee
12:12:10 [ArtB]
Regrets: Thomas
12:12:18 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, make minutes
12:12:18 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ArtB
12:13:51 [ArtB]
zakim, bye
12:13:51 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #wam
12:14:06 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, bye
12:14:06 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item saved in :
12:14:06 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Arve notify Art when the API and Events API is ready for Publication [1]
12:14:06 [RRSAgent]
recorded in