10:30:35 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #svg
10:30:35 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/09/18-svg-irc
10:30:37 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
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10:30:39 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
10:30:39 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG()6:30AM scheduled to start now
10:30:40 <trackbot> Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
10:30:40 <trackbot> Date: 18 September 2008
10:31:03 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG()6:30AM has now started
10:31:08 <Zakim> +??P0
10:31:16 <ed> Zakim, ? is me
10:31:16 <Zakim> +ed; got it
10:33:17 <NH> NH has joined #svg
10:34:34 <Zakim> +Andrew_Sledd
10:36:18 <Zakim> +??P2
10:36:28 <anthony> Zakim, ??P2 is me
10:36:28 <Zakim> +anthony; got it
10:41:25 <ed> Zakim, call doug
10:41:25 <Zakim> I am sorry, ed; I do not know a number for doug
10:42:05 <anthony> Zakim, call Doug_home
10:42:05 <Zakim> I am sorry, anthony; I do not know a number for Doug_home
10:42:59 <Zakim> +Doug_Schepers
10:44:17 <ed> scribe: niklas
10:44:24 <ed> scribeNick: NH
10:44:28 <ed> chair: ED
10:44:48 <ed> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008JulSep/0319.html
10:45:14 <NH> Topic: Last Call comments
10:46:09 <ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/products/11
10:46:34 <ed> ISSUE-2054
10:47:31 <ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2054
10:47:32 <NH> ED: Is a comment from MathMl group?
10:48:14 <NH> ED: Is it possible to do anything about this now?
10:48:52 <NH> DS: We could put this as Core or Tiny
10:49:35 <NH> ED: We should move it to Core
10:49:47 <NH> DS: I'll move it to Core
10:50:00 <ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2055
10:50:04 <NH> ISSUE-2055
10:51:28 <NH> DS: Can Cameron look at this?
10:53:35 <anthony> scribe: anthony
10:53:43 <anthony> scribeNick: anthony
10:53:58 <anthony> ED: Let's deffer this issue for a while
10:54:06 <anthony> ... until Cameron can comment on it
10:54:10 <anthony> ISSUE-2056
10:54:23 <anthony> ED: Should we link to CSS2.1 instead of CSS2.0
10:54:44 <anthony> DS: I posted a comment to the list
10:55:01 <anthony> ... [Summary of comment posted]
10:55:53 <anthony> AG: We wont be able to go to Rec if they are in CR?
10:56:07 <anthony> ED: We can make a normative reference if they are in PR
10:56:48 <anthony> DS: We should wait to hear back from them
10:57:56 <anthony> ED: I would also like an answer to the first question that Doug asked
10:58:03 <anthony> ... in particular for SVG Tiny 1.2
10:59:22 <ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2057
10:59:23 <anthony> ISSUE-2057
10:59:45 <anthony> ED: This is an issue that Chris should look at
11:00:21 <anthony> ... according to the issue the text align property is incompatible with CSS
11:00:48 <anthony> ... I agree with the second part
11:02:45 <anthony> DS: So in relation to the first point
11:02:50 <anthony> ... [Reads out spec]
11:03:04 <anthony> ... those are two different things
11:03:14 <anthony> ... so what she's asking is for us not to change the first part
11:03:18 <anthony> ... but to change the second part
11:04:17 <anthony> ... when a value unsupported by the UA is encountered, it must be treated as if it were not specified
11:04:40 <anthony> ED: Sounds ok with me
11:04:51 <anthony> NH: I think that's good
11:04:58 <anthony> DS: For the second point
11:05:22 <shepazu> [["writing system being used" is not a good basis for alignment.]]
11:05:42 <anthony> ED: She's right
11:06:34 <anthony> DS: That's covered in the next issue
11:06:44 <anthony> DS: The Third issue is
11:06:47 <shepazu> [[
11:06:52 <shepazu> "In SVG Tiny 1.2, vertical writing is not supported."
11:06:52 <shepazu> in http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGMobile12/text.html#TextLayout that
11:06:53 <shepazu> last sentence should be removed.
11:06:53 <shepazu> ]]
11:07:20 <anthony> DS: Some UAs may support it
11:07:38 <anthony> ... it doesn't harm anything by having that in there
11:08:25 <anthony> ... we could add a note that says "SVG Tiny 1.2 does not mandate vertical text"
11:09:27 <anthony> AG: The spec says in first paragraph of 10.6.1 "In SVG Tiny 1.2, vertical writing is not supported"
11:10:04 <anthony> DS: Yes, but by the time you get down to the part that's commented on it probably should be repeated
11:10:48 <anthony> ... if a user is just looking at this property then it's kind of confusing
11:10:52 <anthony> ... so we should repeat it there
11:11:01 <anthony> ... and mark the other section as being and SVG Tiny thing
11:11:45 <anthony> ACTION: Doug to add informative notes for ISSUE-2057 and reply to fantasai
11:11:45 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2200 - Add informative notes for ISSUE-2057 and reply to fantasai [on Doug Schepers - due 2008-09-25].
11:12:00 <anthony> ED: So for the second part I'm just thinking we could talk about the reference orientation
11:12:07 <anthony> ... block progression direction
11:12:29 <anthony> DS: Hold off on that for a sec
11:12:47 <anthony> RESOLUTION: We agree to clarify sections that SVG Tiny 1.2 doesn't support
11:13:18 <shepazu> s/DS: Hold off on that for a sec//
11:14:34 <anthony> ISSUE-2058
11:14:53 <anthony> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2058
11:15:51 <anthony> ED: So in 1.1 Full we have not a direction but a writing mode attribute
11:15:59 <ed> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/text.html#SettingInlineProgressionDirection
11:16:30 <ed> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/text.html#RelationshipWithBiDirectionality
11:16:40 <anthony> ED: We do have a direction as well
11:17:17 <anthony> DS: Why was it dropped from Tiny?
11:17:27 <anthony> ED: It's not in 1.1 Tiny either
11:17:31 <anthony> ... it is in 1.1 Basic
11:18:38 <anthony> DS: [Reads out comment]
11:18:51 <anthony> s/comment/comment in issue/
11:19:01 <anthony> DS: Sounds to me like there should be another value for direction
11:19:03 <anthony> ... which is auto
11:19:27 <anthony> ... but if we're going go according to SVG 1.1. the default would be ltr
11:19:35 <anthony> ED: It's ltr in CSS2 as well
11:19:37 <ed> http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/visuren.html#propdef-direction
11:19:43 <anthony> DS: I can't see a reason not to support it
11:19:56 <anthony> ... except it's something we'd have to make a test for
11:20:30 <aemmons> aemmons has joined #svg
11:20:49 <anthony> ... I'm wondering what it would take to pass this
11:21:09 <anthony> ... on tiny devices they frequently don't have control over how the font renders
11:21:16 <anthony> ... it's put to the font engine of the device
11:21:26 <Zakim> +??P16
11:21:28 <anthony> ... because we don't want to have optional features they probably took this out
11:21:33 <aemmons> zakim, ??p16
11:21:33 <Zakim> I don't understand '??p16', aemmons
11:21:44 <aemmons> zakim, ??P16 is me
11:21:44 <Zakim> +aemmons; got it
11:22:31 <shepazu> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2058
11:23:00 <anthony> AE: So you're right it doesn't have a direction property
11:23:05 <anthony> ... but we don't support it right now
11:23:09 <anthony> ... because it wasn't in the spec
11:23:24 <anthony> ... it wasn't like one of those features that was requested by customers
11:23:41 <anthony> NH: We don't support that
11:24:01 <anthony> AE: It would be pretty hard to implement?
11:24:12 <anthony> NH: That property that would make it harder
11:24:26 <anthony> ... for us Bidi text is a lower priority than others
11:24:39 <anthony> AE: It depends on the Bidi algorithm that you're using
11:24:50 <anthony> ... it does add more burden to the Bidi
11:25:28 <anthony> ... if the API on the device doesn't give the ability to override the direction attirbute
11:25:31 <anthony> ... it's hard to do
11:25:56 <anthony> ED: Just speaking for Opera we have this implemented already
11:26:02 <anthony> ... so we wouldn't have a problem putting it in
11:26:42 <anthony> ... wondering if it would be possible to add the default ltr
11:26:46 <anthony> ... or leave it as it is
11:26:51 <anthony> ... to guess the direction
11:28:22 <anthony> DS: We could say for platforms that include Bidi support they should include rtl
11:28:42 <anthony> ... we would still make ltr the default
11:29:23 <anthony> ... or we could add a value that is auto
11:29:31 <anthony> ... and make that the default
11:29:40 <anthony> ED: That would make us incompatible with CSS
11:30:19 <anthony> ... it sounds a bit strange to have different default values if it's specified in a property
11:30:22 <anthony> ... or a style
11:30:29 <anthony> AE: Maybe we should run it by Chris
11:31:31 <anthony> ... the algorithm already depends on a base direction
11:31:54 <anthony> ... if some of the systems if it's relied on deep down, there is no way to override that
11:33:09 <anthony> NH: For SVG font's it would be a must
11:33:31 <anthony> AE: They could still, but the actual Bidi algorithm could be in the platform
11:33:40 <anthony> ... because the algorithm is complicated
11:33:46 <anthony> ... and you wouldn't want to rewrite it
11:34:29 <anthony> ... putting something in there saying if the platform supports explicitly then direction it must be supported
11:37:41 <anthony> ACTION: Doug to follow up with fantasai and ask her if a platform specific word her would be sufficient to the comment
11:37:41 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2201 - Follow up with fantasai and ask her if a platform specific word her would be sufficient to the comment [on Doug Schepers - due 2008-09-25].
11:38:40 <ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008Sep/0050.html
11:38:52 <ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008Sep/0052.html
11:39:14 <anthony> ED: I made a brief comment on the issue
11:39:28 <anthony> NH: We implement it according to the current specification
11:39:38 <anthony> ... doesn't matter for us we can easily change that
11:39:52 <anthony> ED: I think it makes more sense to align with 1.1
11:40:02 <anthony> AE: I'd agree
11:40:14 <ed> http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.2T/test/svg/shapes-rect-03-t.svg
11:40:16 <anthony> ED: Plus the test is approved
11:40:19 <anthony> ... and accepted
11:40:42 <anthony> AE: Bitflash changed to align with the spec
11:40:56 <anthony> ED: We did in the end decide to keep with the 1.1 rules
11:41:06 <anthony> ... it is possible that someone had an action to change it
11:42:09 <shepazu> ISSUE-2059 
11:42:15 <anthony> ACTION: Erik to change the Tiny 1.2 specification to match the 1.1 specification and to reply to Dr Hoffmann 
11:42:15 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2202 - Change the Tiny 1.2 specification to match the 1.1 specification and to reply to Dr Hoffmann  [on Erik Dahlström - due 2008-09-25].
11:46:14 <anthony> Topic: Test Suite
11:46:40 <anthony> ED: Ikivo has some comments on the validity of the tests
11:46:54 <anthony> ... is this something we want to fix at the test fest or something that we should fix before?
11:47:07 <anthony> AE: I think this is where this is interesting
11:47:36 <anthony> ... if tests change whether implementations pass or fail then it becomes a mad dash to fix things
11:47:49 <anthony> NH: I think it's between 10 - 20 tests
11:48:06 <anthony> ED: I think it would be good to have it in advance
11:48:13 <anthony> ... we can still make small fixes
11:48:14 <Zakim> -anthony
11:57:35 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
11:57:51 <anthony> Zakim, [IPcaller] is me
11:57:51 <Zakim> +anthony; got it
11:59:27 <shepazu> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2055
12:06:16 <Zakim> -ed
12:06:19 <Zakim> -Andrew_Sledd
12:06:20 <Zakim> -anthony
12:06:20 <Zakim> -Doug_Schepers
12:06:23 <Zakim> -aemmons
12:06:25 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG()6:30AM has ended
12:06:27 <Zakim> Attendees were ed, Andrew_Sledd, anthony, Doug_Schepers, aemmons
12:06:48 <anthony> Zakim, bye
12:06:48 <Zakim> Zakim has left #svg
12:06:55 <anthony> RRSAgent, make minutes
12:06:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/09/18-svg-minutes.html anthony
12:43:25 <NH> NH has joined #svg
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13:46:43 <ed_work> http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/SVG/profiles/1.2T/master/shapes.html.diff?r1=1.31&r2=1.32&f=h actually reverted part of Andreas previous commit...
13:47:35 <ed_work> good thing we have cvs so we know who to blame ;)
13:47:42 <shepazu> who's the idiot who...
13:47:44 <shepazu> oh.
13:47:56 <ed_work> it's hard to detect though
13:48:13 <shepazu> who's the idiot who wrote CVS, I was going to say...
13:48:21 <ed_work> heh
13:52:06 <shepazu> so, you going to revert my revert, pervert?
14:07:57 <ed_work> well, yeah I guess...but I don't trust cvs to be able to merge those changes gracefully
14:08:29 <shepazu> so, we should just do it manually?
14:08:43 <shepazu> are you going to do it, or shall I?
14:08:52 <shepazu> I am the one who screwed it up...
14:09:40 <ed_work> I'm the sucker with the action, I'll fix it...have the changes in my texteditor now anyway
14:12:58 <shepazu> ok, great, sorry
14:13:58 <ed_work> checked in the master change now, if you have magic script-power could you run make for me? otherwise I'll do it later
14:16:45 <shepazu> happy too
14:16:48 <shepazu> to
14:17:06 <shepazu> I have some changes I need to do anyway
16:01:22 <heycam> heycam has joined #svg
16:10:45 <heycam> what up y'all
17:36:55 <ed> ed has joined #svg