IRC log of svg on 2008-09-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

10:30:35 [RRSAgent]

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/09/18-svg-irc

10:30:37 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, make logs public

10:30:37 [Zakim]

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Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG

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ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG()6:30AM scheduled to start now

10:30:40 [trackbot]

Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference

10:30:40 [trackbot]

Date: 18 September 2008

10:31:03 [Zakim]

GA_SVGWG()6:30AM has now started

10:31:08 [Zakim]

+??P0

10:31:16 [ed]

Zakim, ? is me

10:31:16 [Zakim]

+ed; got it

10:33:17 [NH]

NH has joined #svg

10:34:34 [Zakim]

+Andrew_Sledd

10:36:18 [Zakim]

+??P2

10:36:28 [anthony]

Zakim, ??P2 is me

10:36:28 [Zakim]

+anthony; got it

10:41:25 [ed]

Zakim, call doug

10:41:25 [Zakim]

I am sorry, ed; I do not know a number for doug

10:42:05 [anthony]

Zakim, call Doug_home

10:42:05 [Zakim]

I am sorry, anthony; I do not know a number for Doug_home

10:42:59 [Zakim]

+Doug_Schepers

10:44:17 [ed]

scribe: niklas

10:44:24 [ed]

scribeNick: NH

10:44:28 [ed]

chair: ED

10:44:48 [ed]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008JulSep/0319.html

10:45:14 [NH]

Topic: Last Call comments

10:46:09 [ed]

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/products/11

10:46:34 [ed]

ISSUE-2054

10:47:31 [ed]

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2054

10:47:32 [NH]

ED: Is a comment from MathMl group?

10:48:14 [NH]

ED: Is it possible to do anything about this now?

10:48:52 [NH]

DS: We could put this as Core or Tiny

10:49:35 [NH]

ED: We should move it to Core

10:49:47 [NH]

DS: I'll move it to Core

10:50:00 [ed]

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2055

10:50:04 [NH]

ISSUE-2055

10:51:28 [NH]

DS: Can Cameron look at this?

10:53:35 [anthony]

scribe: anthony

10:53:43 [anthony]

scribeNick: anthony

10:53:58 [anthony]

ED: Let's deffer this issue for a while

10:54:06 [anthony]

... until Cameron can comment on it

10:54:10 [anthony]

ISSUE-2056

10:54:23 [anthony]

ED: Should we link to CSS2.1 instead of CSS2.0

10:54:44 [anthony]

DS: I posted a comment to the list

10:55:01 [anthony]

... [Summary of comment posted]

10:55:53 [anthony]

AG: We wont be able to go to Rec if they are in CR?

10:56:07 [anthony]

ED: We can make a normative reference if they are in PR

10:56:48 [anthony]

DS: We should wait to hear back from them

10:57:56 [anthony]

ED: I would also like an answer to the first question that Doug asked

10:58:03 [anthony]

... in particular for SVG Tiny 1.2

10:59:22 [ed]

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2057

10:59:23 [anthony]

ISSUE-2057

10:59:45 [anthony]

ED: This is an issue that Chris should look at

11:00:21 [anthony]

... according to the issue the text align property is incompatible with CSS

11:00:48 [anthony]

... I agree with the second part

11:02:45 [anthony]

DS: So in relation to the first point

11:02:50 [anthony]

... [Reads out spec]

11:03:04 [anthony]

... those are two different things

11:03:14 [anthony]

... so what she's asking is for us not to change the first part

11:03:18 [anthony]

... but to change the second part

11:04:17 [anthony]

... when a value unsupported by the UA is encountered, it must be treated as if it were not specified

11:04:40 [anthony]

ED: Sounds ok with me

11:04:51 [anthony]

NH: I think that's good

11:04:58 [anthony]

DS: For the second point

11:05:22 [shepazu]

[["writing system being used" is not a good basis for alignment.]]

11:05:42 [anthony]

ED: She's right

11:06:34 [anthony]

DS: That's covered in the next issue

11:06:44 [anthony]

DS: The Third issue is

11:06:47 [shepazu]

[[

11:06:52 [shepazu]

"In SVG Tiny 1.2, vertical writing is not supported."

11:06:52 [shepazu]

in http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGMobile12/text.html#TextLayout that

11:06:53 [shepazu]

last sentence should be removed.

11:06:53 [shepazu]

]]

11:07:20 [anthony]

DS: Some UAs may support it

11:07:38 [anthony]

... it doesn't harm anything by having that in there

11:08:25 [anthony]

... we could add a note that says "SVG Tiny 1.2 does not mandate vertical text"

11:09:27 [anthony]

AG: The spec says in first paragraph of 10.6.1 "In SVG Tiny 1.2, vertical writing is not supported"

11:10:04 [anthony]

DS: Yes, but by the time you get down to the part that's commented on it probably should be repeated

11:10:48 [anthony]

... if a user is just looking at this property then it's kind of confusing

11:10:52 [anthony]

... so we should repeat it there

11:11:01 [anthony]

... and mark the other section as being and SVG Tiny thing

11:11:45 [anthony]

ACTION: Doug to add informative notes for ISSUE-2057 and reply to fantasai

11:11:45 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-2200 - Add informative notes for ISSUE-2057 and reply to fantasai [on Doug Schepers - due 2008-09-25].

11:12:00 [anthony]

ED: So for the second part I'm just thinking we could talk about the reference orientation

11:12:07 [anthony]

... block progression direction

11:12:29 [anthony]

DS: Hold off on that for a sec

11:12:47 [anthony]

RESOLUTION: We agree to clarify sections that SVG Tiny 1.2 doesn't support

11:13:18 [shepazu]

s/DS: Hold off on that for a sec//

11:14:34 [anthony]

ISSUE-2058

11:14:53 [anthony]

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2058

11:15:51 [anthony]

ED: So in 1.1 Full we have not a direction but a writing mode attribute

11:15:59 [ed]

http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/text.html#SettingInlineProgressionDirection

11:16:30 [ed]

http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG11/text.html#RelationshipWithBiDirectionality

11:16:40 [anthony]

ED: We do have a direction as well

11:17:17 [anthony]

DS: Why was it dropped from Tiny?

11:17:27 [anthony]

ED: It's not in 1.1 Tiny either

11:17:31 [anthony]

... it is in 1.1 Basic

11:18:38 [anthony]

DS: [Reads out comment]

11:18:51 [anthony]

s/comment/comment in issue/

11:19:01 [anthony]

DS: Sounds to me like there should be another value for direction

11:19:03 [anthony]

... which is auto

11:19:27 [anthony]

... but if we're going go according to SVG 1.1. the default would be ltr

11:19:35 [anthony]

ED: It's ltr in CSS2 as well

11:19:37 [ed]

http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/visuren.html#propdef-direction

11:19:43 [anthony]

DS: I can't see a reason not to support it

11:19:56 [anthony]

... except it's something we'd have to make a test for

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11:20:49 [anthony]

... I'm wondering what it would take to pass this

11:21:09 [anthony]

... on tiny devices they frequently don't have control over how the font renders

11:21:16 [anthony]

... it's put to the font engine of the device

11:21:26 [Zakim]

+??P16

11:21:28 [anthony]

... because we don't want to have optional features they probably took this out

11:21:33 [aemmons]

zakim, ??p16

11:21:33 [Zakim]

I don't understand '??p16', aemmons

11:21:44 [aemmons]

zakim, ??P16 is me

11:21:44 [Zakim]

+aemmons; got it

11:22:31 [shepazu]

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2058

11:23:00 [anthony]

AE: So you're right it doesn't have a direction property

11:23:05 [anthony]

... but we don't support it right now

11:23:09 [anthony]

... because it wasn't in the spec

11:23:24 [anthony]

... it wasn't like one of those features that was requested by customers

11:23:41 [anthony]

NH: We don't support that

11:24:01 [anthony]

AE: It would be pretty hard to implement?

11:24:12 [anthony]

NH: That property that would make it harder

11:24:26 [anthony]

... for us Bidi text is a lower priority than others

11:24:39 [anthony]

AE: It depends on the Bidi algorithm that you're using

11:24:50 [anthony]

... it does add more burden to the Bidi

11:25:28 [anthony]

... if the API on the device doesn't give the ability to override the direction attirbute

11:25:31 [anthony]

... it's hard to do

11:25:56 [anthony]

ED: Just speaking for Opera we have this implemented already

11:26:02 [anthony]

... so we wouldn't have a problem putting it in

11:26:42 [anthony]

... wondering if it would be possible to add the default ltr

11:26:46 [anthony]

... or leave it as it is

11:26:51 [anthony]

... to guess the direction

11:28:22 [anthony]

DS: We could say for platforms that include Bidi support they should include rtl

11:28:42 [anthony]

... we would still make ltr the default

11:29:23 [anthony]

... or we could add a value that is auto

11:29:31 [anthony]

... and make that the default

11:29:40 [anthony]

ED: That would make us incompatible with CSS

11:30:19 [anthony]

... it sounds a bit strange to have different default values if it's specified in a property

11:30:22 [anthony]

... or a style

11:30:29 [anthony]

AE: Maybe we should run it by Chris

11:31:31 [anthony]

... the algorithm already depends on a base direction

11:31:54 [anthony]

... if some of the systems if it's relied on deep down, there is no way to override that

11:33:09 [anthony]

NH: For SVG font's it would be a must

11:33:31 [anthony]

AE: They could still, but the actual Bidi algorithm could be in the platform

11:33:40 [anthony]

... because the algorithm is complicated

11:33:46 [anthony]

... and you wouldn't want to rewrite it

11:34:29 [anthony]

... putting something in there saying if the platform supports explicitly then direction it must be supported

11:37:41 [anthony]

ACTION: Doug to follow up with fantasai and ask her if a platform specific word her would be sufficient to the comment

11:37:41 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-2201 - Follow up with fantasai and ask her if a platform specific word her would be sufficient to the comment [on Doug Schepers - due 2008-09-25].

11:38:40 [ed]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008Sep/0050.html

11:38:52 [ed]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2008Sep/0052.html

11:39:14 [anthony]

ED: I made a brief comment on the issue

11:39:28 [anthony]

NH: We implement it according to the current specification

11:39:38 [anthony]

... doesn't matter for us we can easily change that

11:39:52 [anthony]

ED: I think it makes more sense to align with 1.1

11:40:02 [anthony]

AE: I'd agree

11:40:14 [ed]

http://dev.w3.org/SVG/profiles/1.2T/test/svg/shapes-rect-03-t.svg

11:40:16 [anthony]

ED: Plus the test is approved

11:40:19 [anthony]

... and accepted

11:40:42 [anthony]

AE: Bitflash changed to align with the spec

11:40:56 [anthony]

ED: We did in the end decide to keep with the 1.1 rules

11:41:06 [anthony]

... it is possible that someone had an action to change it

11:42:09 [shepazu]

ISSUE-2059

11:42:15 [anthony]

ACTION: Erik to change the Tiny 1.2 specification to match the 1.1 specification and to reply to Dr Hoffmann

11:42:15 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-2202 - Change the Tiny 1.2 specification to match the 1.1 specification and to reply to Dr Hoffmann [on Erik Dahlström - due 2008-09-25].

11:46:14 [anthony]

Topic: Test Suite

11:46:40 [anthony]

ED: Ikivo has some comments on the validity of the tests

11:46:54 [anthony]

... is this something we want to fix at the test fest or something that we should fix before?

11:47:07 [anthony]

AE: I think this is where this is interesting

11:47:36 [anthony]

... if tests change whether implementations pass or fail then it becomes a mad dash to fix things

11:47:49 [anthony]

NH: I think it's between 10 - 20 tests

11:48:06 [anthony]

ED: I think it would be good to have it in advance

11:48:13 [anthony]

... we can still make small fixes

11:48:14 [Zakim]

-anthony

11:57:35 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

11:57:51 [anthony]

Zakim, [IPcaller] is me

11:57:51 [Zakim]

+anthony; got it

11:59:27 [shepazu]

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2055

12:06:16 [Zakim]

-ed

12:06:19 [Zakim]

-Andrew_Sledd

12:06:20 [Zakim]

-anthony

12:06:20 [Zakim]

-Doug_Schepers

12:06:23 [Zakim]

-aemmons

12:06:25 [Zakim]

GA_SVGWG()6:30AM has ended

12:06:27 [Zakim]

Attendees were ed, Andrew_Sledd, anthony, Doug_Schepers, aemmons

12:06:48 [anthony]

Zakim, bye

12:06:48 [Zakim]

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12:06:55 [anthony]

RRSAgent, make minutes

12:06:55 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/09/18-svg-minutes.html anthony

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13:46:43 [ed_work]

http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/SVG/profiles/1.2T/master/shapes.html.diff?r1=1.31&r2=1.32&f=h actually reverted part of Andreas previous commit...

13:47:35 [ed_work]

good thing we have cvs so we know who to blame ;)

13:47:42 [shepazu]

who's the idiot who...

13:47:44 [shepazu]

oh.

13:47:56 [ed_work]

it's hard to detect though

13:48:13 [shepazu]

who's the idiot who wrote CVS, I was going to say...

13:48:21 [ed_work]

heh

13:52:06 [shepazu]

so, you going to revert my revert, pervert?

14:07:57 [ed_work]

well, yeah I guess...but I don't trust cvs to be able to merge those changes gracefully

14:08:29 [shepazu]

so, we should just do it manually?

14:08:43 [shepazu]

are you going to do it, or shall I?

14:08:52 [shepazu]

I am the one who screwed it up...

14:09:40 [ed_work]

I'm the sucker with the action, I'll fix it...have the changes in my texteditor now anyway

14:12:58 [shepazu]

ok, great, sorry

14:13:58 [ed_work]

checked in the master change now, if you have magic script-power could you run make for me? otherwise I'll do it later

14:16:45 [shepazu]

happy too

14:16:48 [shepazu]

to

14:17:06 [shepazu]

I have some changes I need to do anyway

16:01:22 [heycam]

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what up y'all

17:36:55 [ed]

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