13:45:19 RRSAgent has joined #bpwg 13:45:19 logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/09/18-bpwg-irc 13:45:21 RRSAgent, make logs public 13:45:21 Zakim has joined #bpwg 13:45:23 Zakim, this will be BPWG 13:45:23 ok, trackbot; I see MWI_BPWG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 15 minutes 13:45:24 Meeting: Mobile Web Best Practices Working Group Teleconference 13:45:24 Date: 18 September 2008 13:46:00 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2008Sep/0061.html 13:46:03 Chair: DKA 13:46:12 jo has joined #bpwg 13:47:00 Regrets: Robert, Francois, Manrique, Heiko, Yeliz, DavidS, Miguel, Abel, 13:59:11 aconnors has joined #bpwg 13:59:39 achuter has joined #bpwg 14:00:47 MWI_BPWG()10:00AM has now started 14:00:55 +??P5 14:01:04 zakim, ??P5 is me 14:01:06 +achuter; got it 14:01:13 jeffs has joined #bpwg 14:01:18 (waves) 14:01:19 +Bryan_Sullivan 14:01:26 zakim, code? 14:01:29 the conference code is 2794 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jo 14:02:16 + +0207881aaaa 14:02:20 + +0208995aabb 14:02:26 + +95251aacc 14:02:30 +??P10 14:02:32 zakim, aaaa is me 14:02:35 zakim, aabb is me 14:02:36 zakim,mute me 14:02:38 +aconnors; got it 14:02:40 +jo; got it 14:02:42 zakim, aacc is probably me 14:02:46 achuter should now be muted 14:02:54 +dom?; got it 14:02:57 zakim, mute me 14:02:59 zakim, who is on the phone? 14:03:04 +DKA 14:03:10 dom? should now be muted 14:03:12 zakim, unmute me 14:03:12 On the phone I see achuter (muted), Bryan_Sullivan, aconnors, jo, dom? (muted), ??P10, DKA 14:03:16 achuter should no longer be muted 14:03:28 zakim, I am P10 14:03:28 sorry, jeffs, I do not see a party named 'P10' 14:03:33 zakim, I am ??P10 14:03:33 +jeffs; got it 14:04:02 zakim, mute me 14:04:02 achuter should now be muted 14:04:16 zakim, please mute me 14:04:16 jeffs should now be muted 14:04:28 SeanP has joined #bpwg 14:04:59 +Kai_Dietrich 14:04:59 zakim, I am suffering from a cold 14:05:00 I don't understand 'I am suffering from a cold', jo 14:05:07 -Kai_Dietrich 14:05:10 DKA has joined #bpwg 14:05:34 zakim, unmute me 14:05:34 jeffs should no longer be muted 14:05:37 +Kai_Dietrich 14:05:38 zakim, who is here? 14:05:39 On the phone I see achuter (muted), Bryan_Sullivan, aconnors, jo, dom? (muted), jeffs, DKA, Kai_Dietrich 14:05:41 On IRC I see DKA, SeanP, jeffs, achuter, aconnors, jo, Zakim, RRSAgent, francois, dom, trackbot 14:05:52 zakim, who is making noise? 14:06:03 DKA, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: DKA (35%) 14:06:07 :) 14:06:18 zakim, I am unsure 14:06:18 sorry, jo, I do not see a party named 'unsure' 14:06:47 Kai has joined #bpwg 14:06:49 + +1.630.414.aadd 14:06:49 zakim, unmute me 14:06:50 achuter should no longer be muted 14:06:59 zakim, aadd is me 14:06:59 +SeanP; got it 14:06:59 zakim, mute me 14:07:00 achuter should now be muted 14:08:16 Bryan has joined #bpwg 14:08:32 nacho has joined #bpwg 14:09:22 Regrets+ Geoffrey 14:09:48 scribe: Jo 14:09:53 scribenick: Jo 14:10:05 Scribe: Kai 14:10:42 ACTION-837 14:10:55 ACTION-837? 14:10:55 ACTION-837 -- Kai Scheppe to provide explanatory text for the addendum which will put the document (mobileOK Pro Tests 1) in the correct context and explain to the audience that it is intended to aid content authors in creating still better content. -- due 2008-09-11 -- PENDINGREVIEW 14:10:55 http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/837 14:11:35 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2008Sep/0015.html 14:12:16 ISSUE-272? 14:12:16 ISSUE-272 -- What is the new name of document, currently called "mobileOK Pro Tests Version 1", which is supposed to be an addendum to the Best Practices document, to be? -- OPEN 14:12:16 http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/272 14:12:28 DKA: Have people been able to read this text 14:12:34 zakim, please mute me 14:12:34 jeffs should now be muted 14:12:47 Scribe: Bryan 14:13:37 Dka: what is current status for text posted by Kai 14:14:30 Kai: working thru ideas for restructuring possibly into new version of BP, it's still open to some degree 14:14:35 zakim, who is making noise? 14:14:46 jeffs, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds 14:16:51 Jo: An addendum could clarify where extra information may be helpful re te tests of BP1. The info could be put into the BP without reference to the DDC. 14:18:11 Jo: Including the text with guidance on parameterizing the test info could improve the testability of the human testable ascpects and comment on the machine testable aspects. 14:18:34 q+ 14:19:41 ack kai 14:19:48 dka: So the approach is splitting off the explanations into one section and the test details into another, but we need to decide what to do with the 3rd i.e. the erratta to mobile OK basic. 14:20:41 Three possible purposes in respect of clarifying the BPs: a) expand upon any BP text that is not clear, b) clarify and add to the human testing bits and 3) expand upon the machine testable bits and additionally to comment on parameterization of the DDC related tests there (e.g. that the values in mobileOK basic are specific to the DDC and using those values on non DDC devices is not... 14:20:43 ...necessarily appropriate) 14:21:11 kai: No sure what we are trying to achieve with splitting off the errata type info; with the current focus on human testable aspects it may get confused if we split it up and reapply it to the BP 14:22:14 dka: concerned about extra work without a lot of gain 14:23:52 kai: we need to focus on the document user, having the info as an combined addendum is OK for document use; we also need to make the focus on the DDC explicit 14:24:23 dka: the extra work should be minimal 14:24:56 kai: still there are open points in the addendum, not sure whether it belongs there 14:25:04 zakim, mute me 14:25:04 jo should now be muted 14:25:13 dka: this needs to be ironed out before publication 14:25:52 kai: there is value in the open notes, as guide on what needs to be thought about; there is a lot of information there if we are interested in keeping it 14:26:09 ack me 14:27:33 jo: agree that there are many ways forward; grouping under the BP's makes sense; not too happy with the idea of this as a self-certification test 14:28:40 jo: we should either follow the approach in the BP or in mobile OK basic, and not fall in the middle; recommend putting into the form of the BP's including removing the pass/fail verbage 14:29:25 kai: would be OK if we gave "have you considered" guidance in the context of each BP? 14:29:43 jo: that chatting approach is consistent with the BP's 14:29:57 kai: that would be fairly easy to do 14:30:21 kai: can come up wth an example of the approach before jumping in wholly 14:30:22 nacho has joined #bpwg 14:31:15 kai: it will take a couple of weeks 14:32:15 ISSUE-272 14:32:25 kai: there is the name issue to consider 14:32:53 dka: we have suggestions from kai and others on the list; we should take a resolution on this 14:33:07 PROPOSED RESOLUTION: The group will accept the document "addendum" as long as the wording is toned done from a testlike format to a more casual format 14:33:54 dka: needs to be crispier 14:33:58 PROPOSED RESOLUTION: The group will accept the document "addendum" as long as the wording is toned done from a testlike format to a more casual format, by removing the PASS/FAIL verbage 14:34:47 PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Regarding BP1.5 - the group will accept the document "addendum" as long as the wording is toned done from a testlike format to a more casual format, by removing the PASS/FAIL verbage. 14:36:39 PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Regarding BP1.5 - the group will accept the document "addendum" as long as the wording is toned done from a testlike format to a more casual format, by removing the PASS/FAIL verbage. Document also to be flattened by merging information into fewer subsections. 14:37:20 jo: suggests that the commentary sections be reworded into less test-like terms, and call out where needed where this relates to non-DDC 14:38:27 kai: the assumption of the doc is the DDC, there are some "use various devices" type guidance, but it would help to clarify that this is based on the same assumption as BP1 14:38:33 PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Regarding BP1.5 - the group will accept the document "addendum" as long as the wording is toned done from a testlike format to a more casual format, by removing the PASS/FAIL verbage. 14:38:59 +1 to try this and see how it looks before finalizing 14:39:24 +1 on explicit DDC statement 14:39:46 kai: is there argreement that we need to explicitly state the DDC is the focus of the tests? 14:40:21 dka: we need to watch out; there is pushback on the DDC; we may need to soft-pedal the dependency; the link to BP1 already provides that 14:41:44 kai: we need to be explicit about the DDC since there are many tests that are based upon this assumption 14:42:07 dka: wouldn't there be an issue if we reinforce the DDC? 14:42:26 q+ to make a proposal 14:42:28 if there are tests which depend upon the device context, then we need to be explicit about that 14:42:45 q? 14:43:16 ack me 14:43:17 ack dom 14:43:17 dom, you wanted to make a proposal 14:43:26 jo: the DDC has served its purpose, but the example kai gives is one that we should clarify; there may be flexibility we could mention to include more capable devices in the test 14:44:14 dom: DDC is one of the delivery context properties; for each test we should identify the context properties that are relevant, in general 14:44:24 kai: we should explain this for each test? 14:44:55 dom: for specific tests, we should clarify dependencies on the properties of the test device where important 14:45:09 zakim, who is on the phone? 14:45:09 On the phone I see achuter (muted), Bryan_Sullivan, aconnors, jo, dom?, jeffs (muted), DKA, Kai_Dietrich, SeanP 14:45:21 zakim, mute me 14:45:21 jo should now be muted 14:45:30 kai: a good point, but it may change direction of the document, toward adapting content to various device types rather than the DDC 14:45:54 dom: assume that there would be a few properties that are relevant 14:46:42 kai:we could mention the few relevant to each test, but that again takes the text in a new direction 14:47:48 dka: that doesn't keep it simple; would error on the keep it simpler side; can we do what Dom suggests easily? 14:48:10 zakim, mute me 14:48:10 dom? should now be muted 14:48:27 kai: we can remove pass/fail to make it easier; I can focus on the delivery context and see where some further details can be added 14:48:55 PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Regarding BP1.5 - the group will accept the document "addendum" as long as the wording is toned done from a testlike format to a more casual format, by removing the PASS/FAIL verbage. 14:49:04 +1 14:49:07 dka: we need to close off this issue and the new name as well 14:49:23 PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Regarding BP1.5 - the group will accept the document "addendum" as long as the wording is toned done from a testlike format to a more casual format, by removing the PASS/FAIL verbage. 14:49:28 q? 14:49:35 RESOLUTION: Regarding BP1.5 - the group will accept the document "addendum" as long as the wording is toned done from a testlike format to a more casual format, by removing the PASS/FAIL verbage. 14:51:45 ACTION: Kai to change the Addendum according to the resolution about toning down the test character of the document 14:51:45 Created ACTION-847 - Change the Addendum according to the resolution about toning down the test character of the document [on Kai Scheppe - due 2008-09-25]. 14:51:46 Topic: BP2 status 14:52:15 dka: we need to schedule an editorial meeting 3-4 hours e.g. next week 14:52:24 ACTION: Kai to sprinkle in delivery context information (DDC and others) where appropriate 14:52:24 Created ACTION-848 - Sprinkle in delivery context information (DDC and others) where appropriate [on Kai Scheppe - due 2008-09-25]. 14:53:27 -Kai_Dietrich 14:54:49 dka: Friday 26th from 14:00-17:00 OK time 14:56:37 adam: have made resolutions for some of Bryan's comments and prepared some draft text, we can continue next week 14:57:13 adam: issues, not resolutions 14:58:01 ack me 14:58:03 -aconnors 14:58:14 Topic: signups to the group 14:58:43 dom: there were some that didn't make it by the deadline; they can re-signup 14:59:22 ACTION: Dom to check about missing Korean participants 14:59:22 Created ACTION-849 - Check about missing Korean participants [on Dominique Hazaël-Massieux - due 2008-09-25]. 14:59:32 dka: there was some issue with the Korean TF members perhaps a communication issue; we could reach out to help them as needed 14:59:52 Zakim, who's on the call? 14:59:52 On the phone I see achuter (muted), Bryan_Sullivan, jo (muted), dom?, jeffs (muted), DKA, SeanP 15:00:02 ack me 15:00:10 Topic: Content Transformation Guidelines 15:00:17 zakim, mute me 15:00:18 dom? should now be muted 15:00:34 jo: working thru the LC comments; steady progress 15:00:43 zakim, mute me 15:00:43 jo should now be muted 15:01:05 ack jo 15:02:01 zakim, unmute me 15:02:01 achuter should no longer be muted 15:02:14 Topic: Accessibility 15:03:47 alan: sent a message about the page re how to do BP and WCAG at the same time; needs text 15:04:22 dka: since this isn't a standalone document, we could make this an overview section 15:05:14 alan: will review this in upcoming meetings 15:06:13 zakim, mute me 15:06:13 achuter should now be muted 15:06:22 zakim, please unmute me 15:06:22 jeffs should no longer be muted 15:06:23 alan: WCAG 2.1 won't be final for some months; WCAG has been liasing with other groups on review against their guidelines, but they haven't started that yet 15:06:41 zakim, unmute me 15:06:41 achuter should no longer be muted 15:06:57 Topic: AOB 15:07:59 jeffs: any group issue with the email proposal on practical code examples? starting to get some interest from experts on accessibility, but don't want to get in the way 15:08:05 ack me 15:08:15 alan: had not planned to include code examples 15:08:43 zakim, please mute me 15:08:43 jeffs should now be muted 15:08:53 jo: unsure about this, not sure whether we need to continue in this direction, we should discuss the direction 15:08:58 zakim, mute me 15:08:58 achuter should now be muted 15:09:07 Topic: Issues Cleansing 15:09:35 ack me 15:09:47 dka: looking at Dom's list of proposed issues to close 15:10:00 ISSUE-134? 15:10:00 ISSUE-134 -- COLOR CONTRAST -- OPEN 15:10:00 http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/134 15:10:24 PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Close ISSUE-134 15:10:42 RESOLUTION: Close ISSUE-134 15:10:45 dom: issue 134 (color contrast), we should close unless further discussion 15:10:51 ISSUE-185? 15:10:51 ISSUE-185 -- What are the mobileOK Full deliverables? -- OPEN 15:10:51 http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/185 15:10:52 +1 15:10:55 PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Close ISSUE-185 15:11:14 RESOLUTION: Close ISSUE-185 15:11:24 ISSUE-236? 15:11:24 ISSUE-236 -- Does the mobileOK TF need to create device which emulates the DDC for testing? -- OPEN 15:11:24 http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/236 15:11:27 PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Close ISSUE-236 15:11:47 RESOLUTION: Close ISSUE-236 15:11:49 ISSUE-189? 15:11:49 ISSUE-189 -- Allow more than numeric accesskeys in mobileOK -- OPEN 15:11:49 http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/189 15:11:55 PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Close ISSUE-189 15:12:32 RESOLUTION: Close ISSUE-189 15:12:33 ISSUE-254? 15:12:33 ISSUE-254 -- Revision of DDC and Retroactive Effect on BP1 -- OPEN 15:12:33 http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/254 15:12:37 +1 15:12:44 PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Close ISSUE-254 15:13:15 q+ 15:13:59 ack jo 15:14:14 -jeffs 15:14:40 PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Close ISSUE-254 15:14:47 RESOLUTION: Close ISSUE-254 15:14:54 zakim, mute me 15:14:54 jo should now be muted 15:16:05 zakim, mute me 15:16:06 dom? should now be muted 15:16:35 DKA, please a 15 min slot on MW4D to the F2F agenda 15:16:36 http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=dd3jk8v_128gb3xp5hq&hl=en 15:16:57 Topic: TPAC Agenda 15:17:09 ACTION-835? 15:17:09 ACTION-835 -- Dominique Hazaël-Massieux to contact Stéphane to see if he is interested in presenting MW4D to BPWG at TPAC -- due 2008-09-11 -- PENDINGREVIEW 15:17:09 http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/835 15:17:26 close ACTION-835 15:17:26 ACTION-835 Contact Stéphane to see if he is interested in presenting MW4D to BPWG at TPAC closed 15:19:52 [we need to give an answer on the polycom before Sep 21] 15:20:09 bryan: suggests to add a discussion on the DDWG, UWA, DCO, DCCI, etc state of the overall delivery context work as an important issue for the MWI 15:20:21 [ok] 15:20:46 dka: suggest to have a conf phone so that Bryan can join the meeting; or try it over skype 15:21:48 -dom? 15:21:49 -SeanP 15:21:52 -Bryan_Sullivan 15:21:53 -DKA 15:21:55 -achuter 15:21:58 zakim, list attendees 15:21:58 As of this point the attendees have been achuter, Bryan_Sullivan, +0207881aaaa, +0208995aabb, +95251aacc, aconnors, jo, dom?, DKA, jeffs, Kai_Dietrich, +1.630.414.aadd, SeanP 15:22:02 RRSAgent, draft minutes 15:22:02 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/09/18-bpwg-minutes.html dom 15:22:41 zakim, drop me 15:22:41 jo is being disconnected 15:22:43 MWI_BPWG()10:00AM has ended 15:22:44 Attendees were achuter, Bryan_Sullivan, +0207881aaaa, +0208995aabb, +95251aacc, aconnors, jo, dom?, DKA, jeffs, Kai_Dietrich, +1.630.414.aadd, SeanP 15:23:11 s/ RESOLUTION/ RESOLUTION/g 15:23:21 RRSAgent, draft minutes 15:23:21 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/09/18-bpwg-minutes.html dom 15:34:54 Zakim, bye 15:34:54 Zakim has left #bpwg 15:34:56 RRSAgent, bye 15:34:56 I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/18-bpwg-actions.rdf : 15:34:56 ACTION: Kai to change the Addendum according to the resolution about toning down the test character of the document [1] 15:34:56 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/18-bpwg-irc#T14-51-45 15:34:56 ACTION: Kai to sprinkle in delivery context information (DDC and others) where appropriate [2] 15:34:56 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/18-bpwg-irc#T14-52-24 15:34:56 ACTION: Dom to check about missing Korean participants [3] 15:34:56 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/18-bpwg-irc#T14-59-22