IRC log of bpwg on 2008-09-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:45:19 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #bpwg
13:45:19 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/09/18-bpwg-irc
13:45:21 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
13:45:21 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #bpwg
13:45:23 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be BPWG
13:45:23 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see MWI_BPWG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 15 minutes
13:45:24 [trackbot]
Meeting: Mobile Web Best Practices Working Group Teleconference
13:45:24 [trackbot]
Date: 18 September 2008
13:46:00 [dom]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2008Sep/0061.html
13:46:03 [dom]
Chair: DKA
13:46:12 [jo]
jo has joined #bpwg
13:47:00 [dom]
Regrets: Robert, Francois, Manrique, Heiko, Yeliz, DavidS, Miguel, Abel,
13:59:11 [aconnors]
aconnors has joined #bpwg
13:59:39 [achuter]
achuter has joined #bpwg
14:00:47 [Zakim]
MWI_BPWG()10:00AM has now started
14:00:55 [Zakim]
+??P5
14:01:04 [achuter]
zakim, ??P5 is me
14:01:06 [Zakim]
+achuter; got it
14:01:13 [jeffs]
jeffs has joined #bpwg
14:01:18 [jeffs]
(waves)
14:01:19 [Zakim]
+Bryan_Sullivan
14:01:26 [jo]
zakim, code?
14:01:29 [Zakim]
the conference code is 2794 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), jo
14:02:16 [Zakim]
+ +0207881aaaa
14:02:20 [Zakim]
+ +0208995aabb
14:02:26 [Zakim]
+ +95251aacc
14:02:30 [Zakim]
+??P10
14:02:32 [aconnors]
zakim, aaaa is me
14:02:35 [jo]
zakim, aabb is me
14:02:36 [achuter]
zakim,mute me
14:02:38 [Zakim]
+aconnors; got it
14:02:40 [Zakim]
+jo; got it
14:02:42 [dom]
zakim, aacc is probably me
14:02:46 [Zakim]
achuter should now be muted
14:02:54 [Zakim]
+dom?; got it
14:02:57 [dom]
zakim, mute me
14:02:59 [jeffs]
zakim, who is on the phone?
14:03:04 [Zakim]
+DKA
14:03:10 [Zakim]
dom? should now be muted
14:03:12 [achuter]
zakim, unmute me
14:03:12 [Zakim]
On the phone I see achuter (muted), Bryan_Sullivan, aconnors, jo, dom? (muted), ??P10, DKA
14:03:16 [Zakim]
achuter should no longer be muted
14:03:28 [jeffs]
zakim, I am P10
14:03:28 [Zakim]
sorry, jeffs, I do not see a party named 'P10'
14:03:33 [jeffs]
zakim, I am ??P10
14:03:33 [Zakim]
+jeffs; got it
14:04:02 [achuter]
zakim, mute me
14:04:02 [Zakim]
achuter should now be muted
14:04:16 [jeffs]
zakim, please mute me
14:04:16 [Zakim]
jeffs should now be muted
14:04:28 [SeanP]
SeanP has joined #bpwg
14:04:59 [Zakim]
+Kai_Dietrich
14:04:59 [jo]
zakim, I am suffering from a cold
14:05:00 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'I am suffering from a cold', jo
14:05:07 [Zakim]
-Kai_Dietrich
14:05:10 [DKA]
DKA has joined #bpwg
14:05:34 [jeffs]
zakim, unmute me
14:05:34 [Zakim]
jeffs should no longer be muted
14:05:37 [Zakim]
+Kai_Dietrich
14:05:38 [DKA]
zakim, who is here?
14:05:39 [Zakim]
On the phone I see achuter (muted), Bryan_Sullivan, aconnors, jo, dom? (muted), jeffs, DKA, Kai_Dietrich
14:05:41 [Zakim]
On IRC I see DKA, SeanP, jeffs, achuter, aconnors, jo, Zakim, RRSAgent, francois, dom, trackbot
14:05:52 [DKA]
zakim, who is making noise?
14:06:03 [Zakim]
DKA, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: DKA (35%)
14:06:07 [DKA]
:)
14:06:18 [jo]
zakim, I am unsure
14:06:18 [Zakim]
sorry, jo, I do not see a party named 'unsure'
14:06:47 [Kai]
Kai has joined #bpwg
14:06:49 [Zakim]
+ +1.630.414.aadd
14:06:49 [achuter]
zakim, unmute me
14:06:50 [Zakim]
achuter should no longer be muted
14:06:59 [SeanP]
zakim, aadd is me
14:06:59 [Zakim]
+SeanP; got it
14:06:59 [achuter]
zakim, mute me
14:07:00 [Zakim]
achuter should now be muted
14:08:16 [Bryan]
Bryan has joined #bpwg
14:08:32 [nacho]
nacho has joined #bpwg
14:09:22 [dom]
Regrets+ Geoffrey
14:09:48 [jo]
scribe: Jo
14:09:53 [jo]
scribenick: Jo
14:10:05 [Kai]
Scribe: Kai
14:10:42 [Kai]
ACTION-837
14:10:55 [jo]
ACTION-837?
14:10:55 [trackbot]
ACTION-837 -- Kai Scheppe to provide explanatory text for the addendum which will put the document (mobileOK Pro Tests 1) in the correct context and explain to the audience that it is intended to aid content authors in creating still better content. -- due 2008-09-11 -- PENDINGREVIEW
14:10:55 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/837
14:11:35 [Kai]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-bpwg/2008Sep/0015.html
14:12:16 [jo]
ISSUE-272?
14:12:16 [trackbot]
ISSUE-272 -- What is the new name of document, currently called "mobileOK Pro Tests Version 1", which is supposed to be an addendum to the Best Practices document, to be? -- OPEN
14:12:16 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/272
14:12:28 [Kai]
DKA: Have people been able to read this text
14:12:34 [jeffs]
zakim, please mute me
14:12:34 [Zakim]
jeffs should now be muted
14:12:47 [Kai]
Scribe: Bryan
14:13:37 [Bryan]
Dka: what is current status for text posted by Kai
14:14:30 [Bryan]
Kai: working thru ideas for restructuring possibly into new version of BP, it's still open to some degree
14:14:35 [jeffs]
zakim, who is making noise?
14:14:46 [Zakim]
jeffs, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
14:16:51 [Bryan]
Jo: An addendum could clarify where extra information may be helpful re te tests of BP1. The info could be put into the BP without reference to the DDC.
14:18:11 [Bryan]
Jo: Including the text with guidance on parameterizing the test info could improve the testability of the human testable ascpects and comment on the machine testable aspects.
14:18:34 [Kai]
q+
14:19:41 [DKA]
ack kai
14:19:48 [Bryan]
dka: So the approach is splitting off the explanations into one section and the test details into another, but we need to decide what to do with the 3rd i.e. the erratta to mobile OK basic.
14:20:41 [jo]
Three possible purposes in respect of clarifying the BPs: a) expand upon any BP text that is not clear, b) clarify and add to the human testing bits and 3) expand upon the machine testable bits and additionally to comment on parameterization of the DDC related tests there (e.g. that the values in mobileOK basic are specific to the DDC and using those values on non DDC devices is not...
14:20:43 [jo]
...necessarily appropriate)
14:21:11 [Bryan]
kai: No sure what we are trying to achieve with splitting off the errata type info; with the current focus on human testable aspects it may get confused if we split it up and reapply it to the BP
14:22:14 [Bryan]
dka: concerned about extra work without a lot of gain
14:23:52 [Bryan]
kai: we need to focus on the document user, having the info as an combined addendum is OK for document use; we also need to make the focus on the DDC explicit
14:24:23 [Bryan]
dka: the extra work should be minimal
14:24:56 [Bryan]
kai: still there are open points in the addendum, not sure whether it belongs there
14:25:04 [jo]
zakim, mute me
14:25:04 [Zakim]
jo should now be muted
14:25:13 [Bryan]
dka: this needs to be ironed out before publication
14:25:52 [Bryan]
kai: there is value in the open notes, as guide on what needs to be thought about; there is a lot of information there if we are interested in keeping it
14:26:09 [jo]
ack me
14:27:33 [Bryan]
jo: agree that there are many ways forward; grouping under the BP's makes sense; not too happy with the idea of this as a self-certification test
14:28:40 [Bryan]
jo: we should either follow the approach in the BP or in mobile OK basic, and not fall in the middle; recommend putting into the form of the BP's including removing the pass/fail verbage
14:29:25 [Bryan]
kai: would be OK if we gave "have you considered" guidance in the context of each BP?
14:29:43 [Bryan]
jo: that chatting approach is consistent with the BP's
14:29:57 [Bryan]
kai: that would be fairly easy to do
14:30:21 [Bryan]
kai: can come up wth an example of the approach before jumping in wholly
14:30:22 [nacho]
nacho has joined #bpwg
14:31:15 [Bryan]
kai: it will take a couple of weeks
14:32:15 [DKA]
ISSUE-272
14:32:25 [Bryan]
kai: there is the name issue to consider
14:32:53 [Bryan]
dka: we have suggestions from kai and others on the list; we should take a resolution on this
14:33:07 [Kai]
PROPOSED RESOLUTION: The group will accept the document "addendum" as long as the wording is toned done from a testlike format to a more casual format
14:33:54 [Bryan]
dka: needs to be crispier
14:33:58 [Kai]
PROPOSED RESOLUTION: The group will accept the document "addendum" as long as the wording is toned done from a testlike format to a more casual format, by removing the PASS/FAIL verbage
14:34:47 [DKA]
PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Regarding BP1.5 - the group will accept the document "addendum" as long as the wording is toned done from a testlike format to a more casual format, by removing the PASS/FAIL verbage.
14:36:39 [DKA]
PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Regarding BP1.5 - the group will accept the document "addendum" as long as the wording is toned done from a testlike format to a more casual format, by removing the PASS/FAIL verbage. Document also to be flattened by merging information into fewer subsections.
14:37:20 [Bryan]
jo: suggests that the commentary sections be reworded into less test-like terms, and call out where needed where this relates to non-DDC
14:38:27 [Bryan]
kai: the assumption of the doc is the DDC, there are some "use various devices" type guidance, but it would help to clarify that this is based on the same assumption as BP1
14:38:33 [DKA]
PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Regarding BP1.5 - the group will accept the document "addendum" as long as the wording is toned done from a testlike format to a more casual format, by removing the PASS/FAIL verbage.
14:38:59 [jeffs]
+1 to try this and see how it looks before finalizing
14:39:24 [jeffs]
+1 on explicit DDC statement
14:39:46 [Bryan]
kai: is there argreement that we need to explicitly state the DDC is the focus of the tests?
14:40:21 [Bryan]
dka: we need to watch out; there is pushback on the DDC; we may need to soft-pedal the dependency; the link to BP1 already provides that
14:41:44 [Bryan]
kai: we need to be explicit about the DDC since there are many tests that are based upon this assumption
14:42:07 [Bryan]
dka: wouldn't there be an issue if we reinforce the DDC?
14:42:26 [dom]
q+ to make a proposal
14:42:28 [jeffs]
if there are tests which depend upon the device context, then we need to be explicit about that
14:42:45 [DKA]
q?
14:43:16 [dom]
ack me
14:43:17 [DKA]
ack dom
14:43:17 [Zakim]
dom, you wanted to make a proposal
14:43:26 [Bryan]
jo: the DDC has served its purpose, but the example kai gives is one that we should clarify; there may be flexibility we could mention to include more capable devices in the test
14:44:14 [Bryan]
dom: DDC is one of the delivery context properties; for each test we should identify the context properties that are relevant, in general
14:44:24 [Bryan]
kai: we should explain this for each test?
14:44:55 [Bryan]
dom: for specific tests, we should clarify dependencies on the properties of the test device where important
14:45:09 [jeffs]
zakim, who is on the phone?
14:45:09 [Zakim]
On the phone I see achuter (muted), Bryan_Sullivan, aconnors, jo, dom?, jeffs (muted), DKA, Kai_Dietrich, SeanP
14:45:21 [jo]
zakim, mute me
14:45:21 [Zakim]
jo should now be muted
14:45:30 [Bryan]
kai: a good point, but it may change direction of the document, toward adapting content to various device types rather than the DDC
14:45:54 [Bryan]
dom: assume that there would be a few properties that are relevant
14:46:42 [Bryan]
kai:we could mention the few relevant to each test, but that again takes the text in a new direction
14:47:48 [Bryan]
dka: that doesn't keep it simple; would error on the keep it simpler side; can we do what Dom suggests easily?
14:48:10 [dom]
zakim, mute me
14:48:10 [Zakim]
dom? should now be muted
14:48:27 [Bryan]
kai: we can remove pass/fail to make it easier; I can focus on the delivery context and see where some further details can be added
14:48:55 [Kai]
PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Regarding BP1.5 - the group will accept the document "addendum" as long as the wording is toned done from a testlike format to a more casual format, by removing the PASS/FAIL verbage.
14:49:04 [jeffs]
+1
14:49:07 [Bryan]
dka: we need to close off this issue and the new name as well
14:49:23 [DKA]
PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Regarding BP1.5 - the group will accept the document "addendum" as long as the wording is toned done from a testlike format to a more casual format, by removing the PASS/FAIL verbage.
14:49:28 [DKA]
q?
14:49:35 [Bryan]
RESOLUTION: Regarding BP1.5 - the group will accept the document "addendum" as long as the wording is toned done from a testlike format to a more casual format, by removing the PASS/FAIL verbage.
14:51:45 [Kai]
ACTION: Kai to change the Addendum according to the resolution about toning down the test character of the document
14:51:45 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-847 - Change the Addendum according to the resolution about toning down the test character of the document [on Kai Scheppe - due 2008-09-25].
14:51:46 [Bryan]
Topic: BP2 status
14:52:15 [Bryan]
dka: we need to schedule an editorial meeting 3-4 hours e.g. next week
14:52:24 [Kai]
ACTION: Kai to sprinkle in delivery context information (DDC and others) where appropriate
14:52:24 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-848 - Sprinkle in delivery context information (DDC and others) where appropriate [on Kai Scheppe - due 2008-09-25].
14:53:27 [Zakim]
-Kai_Dietrich
14:54:49 [Bryan]
dka: Friday 26th from 14:00-17:00 OK time
14:56:37 [Bryan]
adam: have made resolutions for some of Bryan's comments and prepared some draft text, we can continue next week
14:57:13 [Bryan]
adam: issues, not resolutions
14:58:01 [dom]
ack me
14:58:03 [Zakim]
-aconnors
14:58:14 [Bryan]
Topic: signups to the group
14:58:43 [Bryan]
dom: there were some that didn't make it by the deadline; they can re-signup
14:59:22 [dom]
ACTION: Dom to check about missing Korean participants
14:59:22 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-849 - Check about missing Korean participants [on Dominique Hazaël-Massieux - due 2008-09-25].
14:59:32 [Bryan]
dka: there was some issue with the Korean TF members perhaps a communication issue; we could reach out to help them as needed
14:59:52 [dom]
Zakim, who's on the call?
14:59:52 [Zakim]
On the phone I see achuter (muted), Bryan_Sullivan, jo (muted), dom?, jeffs (muted), DKA, SeanP
15:00:02 [jo]
ack me
15:00:10 [Bryan]
Topic: Content Transformation Guidelines
15:00:17 [dom]
zakim, mute me
15:00:18 [Zakim]
dom? should now be muted
15:00:34 [Bryan]
jo: working thru the LC comments; steady progress
15:00:43 [jo]
zakim, mute me
15:00:43 [Zakim]
jo should now be muted
15:01:05 [DKA]
ack jo
15:02:01 [achuter]
zakim, unmute me
15:02:01 [Zakim]
achuter should no longer be muted
15:02:14 [Bryan]
Topic: Accessibility
15:03:47 [Bryan]
alan: sent a message about the page re how to do BP and WCAG at the same time; needs text
15:04:22 [Bryan]
dka: since this isn't a standalone document, we could make this an overview section
15:05:14 [Bryan]
alan: will review this in upcoming meetings
15:06:13 [achuter]
zakim, mute me
15:06:13 [Zakim]
achuter should now be muted
15:06:22 [jeffs]
zakim, please unmute me
15:06:22 [Zakim]
jeffs should no longer be muted
15:06:23 [Bryan]
alan: WCAG 2.1 won't be final for some months; WCAG has been liasing with other groups on review against their guidelines, but they haven't started that yet
15:06:41 [achuter]
zakim, unmute me
15:06:41 [Zakim]
achuter should no longer be muted
15:06:57 [Bryan]
Topic: AOB
15:07:59 [Bryan]
jeffs: any group issue with the email proposal on practical code examples? starting to get some interest from experts on accessibility, but don't want to get in the way
15:08:05 [jo]
ack me
15:08:15 [Bryan]
alan: had not planned to include code examples
15:08:43 [jeffs]
zakim, please mute me
15:08:43 [Zakim]
jeffs should now be muted
15:08:53 [Bryan]
jo: unsure about this, not sure whether we need to continue in this direction, we should discuss the direction
15:08:58 [achuter]
zakim, mute me
15:08:58 [Zakim]
achuter should now be muted
15:09:07 [Bryan]
Topic: Issues Cleansing
15:09:35 [dom]
ack me
15:09:47 [Bryan]
dka: looking at Dom's list of proposed issues to close
15:10:00 [dom]
ISSUE-134?
15:10:00 [trackbot]
ISSUE-134 -- COLOR CONTRAST -- OPEN
15:10:00 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/134
15:10:24 [DKA]
PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Close ISSUE-134
15:10:42 [DKA]
RESOLUTION: Close ISSUE-134
15:10:45 [Bryan]
dom: issue 134 (color contrast), we should close unless further discussion
15:10:51 [dom]
ISSUE-185?
15:10:51 [trackbot]
ISSUE-185 -- What are the mobileOK Full deliverables? -- OPEN
15:10:51 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/185
15:10:52 [jeffs]
+1
15:10:55 [DKA]
PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Close ISSUE-185
15:11:14 [DKA]
RESOLUTION: Close ISSUE-185
15:11:24 [dom]
ISSUE-236?
15:11:24 [trackbot]
ISSUE-236 -- Does the mobileOK TF need to create device which emulates the DDC for testing? -- OPEN
15:11:24 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/236
15:11:27 [DKA]
PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Close ISSUE-236
15:11:47 [DKA]
RESOLUTION: Close ISSUE-236
15:11:49 [dom]
ISSUE-189?
15:11:49 [trackbot]
ISSUE-189 -- Allow more than numeric accesskeys in mobileOK -- OPEN
15:11:49 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/189
15:11:55 [DKA]
PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Close ISSUE-189
15:12:32 [DKA]
RESOLUTION: Close ISSUE-189
15:12:33 [dom]
ISSUE-254?
15:12:33 [trackbot]
ISSUE-254 -- Revision of DDC and Retroactive Effect on BP1 -- OPEN
15:12:33 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/254
15:12:37 [jeffs]
+1
15:12:44 [DKA]
PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Close ISSUE-254
15:13:15 [jo]
q+
15:13:59 [DKA]
ack jo
15:14:14 [Zakim]
-jeffs
15:14:40 [DKA]
PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Close ISSUE-254
15:14:47 [DKA]
RESOLUTION: Close ISSUE-254
15:14:54 [jo]
zakim, mute me
15:14:54 [Zakim]
jo should now be muted
15:16:05 [dom]
zakim, mute me
15:16:06 [Zakim]
dom? should now be muted
15:16:35 [dom]
DKA, please a 15 min slot on MW4D to the F2F agenda
15:16:36 [DKA]
http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=dd3jk8v_128gb3xp5hq&hl=en
15:16:57 [Bryan]
Topic: TPAC Agenda
15:17:09 [dom]
ACTION-835?
15:17:09 [trackbot]
ACTION-835 -- Dominique Hazaël-Massieux to contact Stéphane to see if he is interested in presenting MW4D to BPWG at TPAC -- due 2008-09-11 -- PENDINGREVIEW
15:17:09 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/835
15:17:26 [dom]
close ACTION-835
15:17:26 [trackbot]
ACTION-835 Contact Stéphane to see if he is interested in presenting MW4D to BPWG at TPAC closed
15:19:52 [dom]
[we need to give an answer on the polycom before Sep 21]
15:20:09 [Bryan]
bryan: suggests to add a discussion on the DDWG, UWA, DCO, DCCI, etc state of the overall delivery context work as an important issue for the MWI
15:20:21 [dom]
[ok]
15:20:46 [Bryan]
dka: suggest to have a conf phone so that Bryan can join the meeting; or try it over skype
15:21:48 [Zakim]
-dom?
15:21:49 [Zakim]
-SeanP
15:21:52 [Zakim]
-Bryan_Sullivan
15:21:55 [Zakim]
-achuter
15:21:58 [dom]
zakim, list attendees
15:21:58 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been achuter, Bryan_Sullivan, +0207881aaaa, +0208995aabb, +95251aacc, aconnors, jo, dom?, DKA, jeffs, Kai_Dietrich, +1.630.414.aadd, SeanP
15:22:02 [dom]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:22:02 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/09/18-bpwg-minutes.html dom
15:22:41 [jo]
zakim, drop me
15:22:41 [Zakim]
jo is being disconnected
15:22:43 [Zakim]
MWI_BPWG()10:00AM has ended
15:22:44 [Zakim]
Attendees were achuter, Bryan_Sullivan, +0207881aaaa, +0208995aabb, +95251aacc, aconnors, jo, dom?, DKA, jeffs, Kai_Dietrich, +1.630.414.aadd, SeanP
15:23:11 [dom]
s/<DKA> RESOLUTION/<Bryan> RESOLUTION/g
15:23:21 [dom]
RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:23:21 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/09/18-bpwg-minutes.html dom
15:34:54 [dom]
Zakim, bye
15:34:54 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #bpwg
15:34:56 [dom]
RRSAgent, bye
15:34:56 [RRSAgent]
I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/18-bpwg-actions.rdf :
15:34:56 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Kai to change the Addendum according to the resolution about toning down the test character of the document [1]
15:34:56 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/18-bpwg-irc#T14-51-45
15:34:56 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Kai to sprinkle in delivery context information (DDC and others) where appropriate [2]
15:34:56 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/18-bpwg-irc#T14-52-24
15:34:56 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Dom to check about missing Korean participants [3]
15:34:56 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/18-bpwg-irc#T14-59-22