IRC log of owl on 2008-09-17

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:38:48 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #owl
16:38:48 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/09/17-owl-irc
16:39:06 [MartinD]: MartinD has joined #OWL
16:39:23 [JeffP]: JeffP has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Teleconference.2008.09.17/Agenda
16:39:49 [JeffP]: Zakim, this will be owlwg
16:39:49 [Zakim]: ok, JeffP; I see SW_OWL()1:00PM scheduled to start in 21 minutes
16:40:12 [JeffP]: ScribeNick: JeffP
16:40:21 [JeffP]: RRSAgent, make records public
16:46:16 [bmotik]: bmotik has joined #owl
16:51:39 [alanr]: alanr has joined #owl
16:54:17 [ivan]: ivan has joined #owl
16:59:36 [bcuencagrau]: bcuencagrau has joined #owl
16:59:36 [Zakim]: SW_OWL()1:00PM has now started
16:59:44 [Zakim]: +MartinD
16:59:45 [Zakim]: +Alan_Ruttenberg
16:59:54 [MartinD]: zakim, mute me
16:59:54 [Zakim]: MartinD should now be muted
16:59:54 [MarkusK]: MarkusK has joined #owl
17:00:07 [ivan]: zakim, dial ivan-voip
17:00:11 [Zakim]: ok, ivan; the call is being made
17:00:13 [Zakim]: +Ivan
17:00:15 [Zakim]: +??P9
17:00:19 [bcuencagrau]: Zakim, ??P9 is me
17:00:19 [Zakim]: +bcuencagrau; got it
17:00:19 [m_schnei]: m_schnei has joined #owl
17:00:35 [Zakim]: + +31.20.525.aaaa
17:00:40 [Rinke]: Zakim, aaaa is me
17:00:40 [Zakim]: +Rinke; got it
17:00:50 [uli]: uli has joined #owl
17:01:17 [Zakim]: +??P1
17:01:38 [Zakim]: +??P5
17:01:44 [alanr]: zakim, who is here?
17:01:44 [Zakim]: On the phone I see MartinD (muted), Alan_Ruttenberg, bcuencagrau, Ivan, Rinke, MarkusK, ??P5
17:01:46 [Zakim]: On IRC I see uli, m_schnei, MarkusK, bcuencagrau, ivan, alanr, bmotik, MartinD, RRSAgent, Zakim, JeffP, Rinke, sandro, trackbot
17:01:50 [baojie]: baojie has joined #owl
17:01:52 [m_schnei]: zakim, ??P5 is me
17:01:57 [Zakim]: + +1.908.612.aabb
17:01:59 [Zakim]: +m_schnei; got it
17:02:01 [Zakim]: +Quentin
17:02:04 [m_schnei]: zakim, unmute me
17:02:05 [Zakim]: +??P3
17:02:06 [bmotik_]: bmotik_ has joined #owl
17:02:09 [m_schnei]: zakim, mute me
17:02:11 [bcuencagrau]: Zakim, mute me
17:02:12 [JeffP]: zakim, quentin is me
17:02:13 [Zakim]: m_schnei was not muted, m_schnei
17:02:17 [Zakim]: m_schnei should now be muted
17:02:18 [bmotik_]: Zakim, ??P5 is me
17:02:21 [Zakim]: bcuencagrau should now be muted
17:02:23 [Zakim]: +JeffP; got it
17:02:31 [Zakim]: I already had ??P5 as m_schnei, bmotik_
17:02:38 [Zakim]: +Sandro
17:02:48 [Zakim]: -??P3
17:02:54 [msmith]: msmith has joined #owl
17:02:55 [alanr]: zakim, aabb is pfps
17:02:55 [Zakim]: +pfps; got it
17:03:02 [Zakim]: +??P3
17:03:03 [alanr]: zakim, who is here?
17:03:03 [Zakim]: On the phone I see MartinD (muted), Alan_Ruttenberg, bcuencagrau (muted), Ivan, Rinke, MarkusK, m_schnei (muted), pfps, JeffP, Sandro, ??P3
17:03:05 [bmotik_]: Zakim, ??P3 is me
17:03:07 [Zakim]: On IRC I see msmith, bmotik_, baojie, uli, m_schnei, MarkusK, bcuencagrau, ivan, alanr, bmotik, MartinD, RRSAgent, Zakim, JeffP, Rinke, sandro, trackbot
17:03:09 [Zakim]: +bmotik_; got it
17:03:10 [bmotik_]: Zakim, mute me
17:03:11 [Zakim]: bmotik_ should now be muted
17:03:13 [Zakim]: +baojie
17:03:17 [bmotik_]: Zakim, bmotik_ is bmotik
17:03:17 [Zakim]: +bmotik; got it
17:03:23 [Zakim]: +msmith
17:03:30 [Rinke]: zakim, who is talking?
17:03:34 [Zakim]: +??P15
17:03:40 [Zakim]: Rinke, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Rinke (35%), pfps (20%), baojie (8%)
17:03:42 [uli]: zakim, ??P15 is me
17:03:42 [Zakim]: +uli; got it
17:03:46 [uli]: zakim, mute me
17:03:46 [Zakim]: uli should now be muted
17:04:03 [uli]: did you hear whistling?
17:04:14 [alanr]: just kidding :)
17:04:20 [Rinke]: ;)
17:04:24 [Rinke]: zakim, mute me
17:04:24 [Zakim]: Rinke should now be muted
17:04:32 [alanr]: zakim, roll call
17:04:32 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'roll call', alanr
17:04:36 [alanr]: zakim, who is here?
17:04:36 [Zakim]: On the phone I see MartinD (muted), Alan_Ruttenberg, bcuencagrau (muted), Ivan, Rinke (muted), MarkusK, m_schnei (muted), pfps, JeffP, Sandro, bmotik (muted), baojie, msmith, uli
17:04:40 [Zakim]: ... (muted)
17:04:41 [Zakim]: On IRC I see msmith, bmotik, baojie, uli, m_schnei, MarkusK, bcuencagrau, ivan, alanr, MartinD, RRSAgent, Zakim, JeffP, Rinke, sandro, trackbot
17:04:42 [Zakim]: +Zhe
17:04:58 [Zhe]: Zhe has joined #owl
17:05:11 [Zhe]: zakim, mute me
17:05:11 [Zakim]: Zhe should now be muted
17:05:12 [bmotik_]: bmotik_ has joined #owl
17:05:15 [sandro]: zakim, who is talking?
17:05:23 [JeffP]: Topic: Admin
17:05:27 [Zakim]: sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Alan_Ruttenberg (44%), pfps (30%), JeffP (20%), Sandro (9%)
17:05:55 [Zhe]: could not hear much
17:06:05 [Rinke]: yes
17:06:26 [Rinke]: they look ok to me
17:06:27 [JeffP]: PROPOSED: Accept Previous Minutes (10 September)
17:06:33 [ivan]: zakim, who is talking?
17:06:41 [Zakim]: +[IBM]
17:06:43 [Rinke]: +1
17:06:44 [Zakim]: ivan, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Alan_Ruttenberg (70%), pfps (39%), Sandro (4%)
17:06:46 [MarkusK]: +1
17:06:47 [MartinD]: +1
17:06:49 [Achille]: Achille has joined #owl
17:06:53 [alanr]: +1
17:07:04 [JeffP]: RESOLVED: Previous Minutes (10 September) accepted
17:07:16 [JeffP]: Topic: Action items status
17:07:39 [sandro]: zakim, who is muted?
17:07:39 [Zakim]: I see MartinD, bcuencagrau, Rinke, m_schnei, bmotik, uli, Zhe muted
17:07:54 [JeffP]: Topic: Due and overdue Actions
17:08:06 [sandro]: (it looks like Peter's muting didn't work.)
17:08:07 [JeffP]: Topic: Action 172 Develop list of possible conflicts between XML Schema datatypes and OWL datatypes with valuespace reasoning / Achille Fokoue
17:08:16 [JeffP]: Action 172 completed
17:08:16 [trackbot]: Sorry, couldn't find user - 172
17:08:42 [JeffP]: Action 189 Review RDF Mapping / Alan Ruttenberg completed
17:08:42 [trackbot]: Sorry, couldn't find user - 189
17:09:18 [JeffP]: Action 202?
17:09:18 [trackbot]: Sorry, bad ACTION syntax
17:09:23 [JeffP]: Topic: Reviewing
17:09:33 [Achille]: Zakim, IBM is me
17:09:33 [Zakim]: +Achille; got it
17:09:44 [bcuencagrau]: Maybe I will go
17:09:47 [Achille]: +q
17:09:53 [JeffP]: Fourth Face-to-Face (F2F) Meeting
17:10:01 [alanr]: q?
17:10:04 [alanr]: ack Achille
17:10:12 [JeffP]: alanr: anyone in the telecon who will come but not signed up yet
17:10:29 [JeffP]: Achille: will be able to come
17:10:32 [uli]: aaah
17:11:05 [JeffP]: Topic: Proposal to publish Public Working Drafts (15 minutes)
17:11:12 [Achille]: Achille: I am not sure yet if I will come, I will know for sure by the end of this week. I hope I could make it
17:11:14 [uli]: too much noise!
17:11:18 [sandro]: zakim, mute pfps
17:11:18 [Zakim]: pfps should now be muted
17:12:06 [JeffP]: alanr: chairs are considering the editor lists for the drafts
17:12:24 [JeffP]: ... will be contacting people during the week
17:13:04 [JeffP]: ... now we need to decide whether to publish the drafts now or later?
17:13:33 [sandro]: alan: may be minor editorial changes before publication, editors/contributors will change before pub, title may change....
17:13:47 [JeffP]: sandro: will we decide the title after the re-publish?
17:14:10 [JeffP]: q+
17:14:20 [alanr]: ack JeffP
17:14:59 [ivan]: q=
17:15:02 [ivan]: Q+
17:15:04 [JeffP]: JeffP: do we include Profiles?
17:15:08 [JeffP]: alanr: no
17:15:10 [alanr]: ack Ivan
17:15:25 [uli]: echo...
17:15:28 [JeffP]: Ivan: is that a Last Call working draft?
17:15:30 [sandro]: PROPOSED: Publish Syntax, DL Semantics, RDF-Based Semantics, Mapping-to-RDF, and XML-Serialization soon (eg Sept 24) (probably with Profiles), -- subject to minor editorial changes, changes to the editors/contribs/authors information, and the titles. These are ordinary WDs (and FPWD for RDF-Based Semantics).
17:16:02 [sandro]: zakim, who is talking?
17:16:08 [uli]: too many echos
17:16:09 [bmotik]: +1
17:16:13 [Zakim]: sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Ivan (51%)
17:16:16 [bcuencagrau]: +1
17:16:18 [uli]: can hear, but not understand
17:16:20 [sandro]: zakim, mute ivan
17:16:20 [Zakim]: Ivan should now be muted
17:16:33 [sandro]: +1
17:16:34 [alanr]: +1
17:16:35 [MarkusK]: +1
17:16:36 [msmith]: +1
17:16:36 [ivan]: +1
17:16:37 [Achille]: +1
17:16:38 [MartinD]: +1
17:16:38 [uli]: +1
17:16:38 [Zhe]: +1
17:16:39 [baojie]: =1
17:16:42 [baojie]: +1
17:16:43 [sandro]: +1 (W3C)
17:16:49 [Zhe]: +1 (ORACLE)
17:16:49 [msmith]: +1 (C&P)
17:16:49 [Achille]: +1 (IBM)
17:16:49 [Rinke]: +1 (UvA)
17:16:50 [MarkusK]: +1 (FZI)
17:16:52 [bmotik]: +1 (Oxford)
17:16:53 [uli]: +1 (Manchester)
17:16:54 [bcuencagrau]: +1 (Oxford)
17:16:58 [alanr]: +1 (science commons)
17:16:59 [MartinD]: +1 (Open Uni)
17:17:00 [baojie]: +1 (RPI)
17:17:10 [JeffP]: +1 (Aberdeen)
17:17:24 [alanr]: pfps: +1 (Alcatel-Lucent)
17:17:42 [sandro]: RESOLVED: Publish Syntax, DL Semantics, RDF-Based Semantics, Mapping-to-RDF, and XML-Serialization soon (eg Sept 24) (probably with Profiles), -- subject to minor editorial changes, changes to the editors/contribs/authors information, and the titles. These are ordinary WDs (and FPWD for RDF-Based Semantics).
17:18:10 [JeffP]: Topic: Publish soon?
17:19:26 [JeffP]: sandro: we should discuss the titles again
17:19:29 [m_schnei]: I think we should not say "model-theoretic", it's a very technical aspect
17:19:47 [sandro]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Sep/0177.html
17:20:08 [sandro]: -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Sep/0178.html reply with OWL 1 versions
17:20:44 [alanr]: Direct Model-Theoretic Semantics
17:20:49 [alanr]: RDF-Compatible Model-Theoretic Semantics
17:21:00 [ivan]: q+
17:21:03 [JeffP]: alanr: could you explain it a bit sandro?
17:21:04 [ivan]: zakim, mute me
17:21:04 [Zakim]: Ivan was already muted, ivan
17:21:05 [m_schnei]: I never understood this "direct" MT semantics
17:21:30 [ivan]: zakim, unmute me
17:21:30 [Zakim]: Ivan should no longer be muted
17:21:31 [sandro]: zak ivan
17:21:36 [alanr]: q?
17:21:40 [alanr]: ack ivan
17:21:41 [JeffP]: sandro: ...
17:22:01 [m_schnei]: +1 to "DL-Semantics"
17:22:02 [JeffP]: ivan: Model-Theoretic Semantics might be too complext
17:22:10 [JeffP]: ... while DL semantics seems to be fine
17:22:24 [sandro]: sandro: "model-theoretic" is noise, "RDF-Compatible" is incorrect, "Direct" is kind of meaningless.
17:22:26 [ivan]: zakim, mute me
17:22:26 [Zakim]: Ivan should now be muted
17:22:28 [JeffP]: ... RDF-based semantics also ok
17:22:42 [uli]: I am with Sandro
17:22:50 [Rinke]: I am with Ivan
17:22:54 [ivan]: DL Semantics, RDF Based Semantics
17:22:55 [alanr]: Semantics of OWL DL, EL, and QL
17:22:55 [alanr]: Semantics of OWL Full and RL
17:23:06 [m_schnei]: +1 to ivan's proposal
17:23:11 [JeffP]: Why don't we have one single Semantic Document???
17:23:30 [uli]: I quite like Alan's suggestion
17:23:31 [sandro]: Primary Semantics, RDF-Based Semantics
17:23:47 [ivan]: q+
17:23:52 [m_schnei]: +1 to separate
17:23:55 [Zhe]: ivan, could you type out your proposal?
17:23:56 [ivan]: ack ivan
17:23:56 [JeffP]: alanr: having a single semantics document is also an option
17:23:56 [alanr]: ack ivan
17:24:06 [baojie]: +q
17:24:15 [m_schnei]: what is a "primary" semantics?
17:24:19 [JeffP]: ... althought some of the editors wanted to make it separate
17:24:48 [JeffP]: ivan: having two documents should be ok
17:24:58 [alanr]: ack baojie
17:25:01 [uli]: Ivan, the DL semantics could equally be called "Standard FOL semantics"
17:25:11 [uli]: ...rather than "DL semantics"
17:25:29 [JeffP]: Jie: a question for Michael -
17:25:36 [sandro]: uli, are you saying it's not a Description Logic?
17:25:39 [m_schnei]: zakim, unmute me
17:25:39 [Zakim]: m_schnei should no longer be muted
17:25:48 [ivan]: zakim, mute me
17:25:48 [Zakim]: Ivan should now be muted
17:25:54 [uli]: sandro, the semantics isn't DL specific
17:26:18 [JeffP]: ... do the two semantics lead to the same results?
17:26:24 [sandro]: q?
17:26:28 [sandro]: q+ to explain Primary
17:26:54 [alanr]: ack sandro
17:26:54 [Zakim]: sandro, you wanted to explain Primary
17:26:55 [sandro]: ack sandro
17:26:57 [JeffP]: m_schnei: ...
17:27:09 [m_schnei]: zakim, mute me
17:27:09 [Zakim]: m_schnei should now be muted
17:27:28 [JeffP]: sandro: when I talked to Ian, I suggested Primary
17:27:49 [ivan]: q+
17:27:50 [JeffP]: ... Ian said the RDF one is really a reimplementation of the FOL one
17:27:54 [m_schnei]: actually, the DL semantics guided the /development/ of the Full Semantics
17:27:55 [alanr]: q+
17:27:55 [ivan]: ack ivan
17:27:59 [JeffP]: ... I agree with Ian on that
17:28:28 [JeffP]: ivan: I don't like that, ...
17:28:35 [sandro]: In English, "Primary" does not mean better.
17:28:47 [Rinke]: q+
17:28:48 [sandro]: It just mean "first". Which often means it's not as good.
17:28:57 [sandro]: ack alanr
17:29:06 [alanr]: ack Rinke
17:29:06 [Rinke]: zakim, unmute me
17:29:08 [Zakim]: Rinke was not muted, Rinke
17:29:10 [JeffP]: alanr: if the two semantics disagree, we need to decide what to do
17:29:46 [bcuencagrau]: +q
17:29:47 [JeffP]: Rinke: why not keep things as they are
17:29:54 [bcuencagrau]: Zakim, unmute me
17:29:54 [Zakim]: bcuencagrau should no longer be muted
17:30:06 [sandro]: Rinke: "Semantics" and "RDF-Based Semantics"
17:30:06 [Rinke]: zakim, mute me
17:30:06 [Zakim]: Rinke should now be muted
17:30:15 [alanr]: ack bcuencagrau
17:30:17 [m_schnei]: I think the stress on "model-theoretic" was that there were two kinds of semantics in DAML-OIL
17:30:32 [sandro]: Compromise position --- "Direct Semantics" and "RDF-Based Semantics"
17:30:32 [JeffP]: bcuencagrau: what is wrong with the OWL 1.0 way
17:30:42 [sandro]: q?
17:30:56 [ivan]: +1 to sandro
17:30:57 [JeffP]: sandro: how about Direct and RDF-based
17:30:58 [m_schnei]: zakim, mute me
17:30:58 [Zakim]: m_schnei was already muted, m_schnei
17:31:03 [bcuencagrau]: Zakim, mute me
17:31:03 [Zakim]: bcuencagrau should now be muted
17:31:35 [JeffP]: alanr: shrawpoll ...
17:31:56 [alanr]: Model-Theoretic Semantics
17:31:56 [alanr]: RDF-Based Semantics
17:31:58 [alanr]: 1
17:32:01 [alanr]: 2
17:32:07 [alanr]: Semantics of OWL DL, EL, and QL
17:32:07 [alanr]: Semantics of OWL Full and RL
17:32:11 [alanr]: 2)
17:32:20 [ivan]: s/2)/3)/
17:32:21 [alanr]: First Order Semantics
17:32:26 [alanr]: Primary Semantics
17:32:30 [alanr]: Direct Semantics
17:33:16 [msmith]: rinke's suggestion was "semantics" and "rdf semantics", correct? i.e., no qualifier at all for the DL semantics
17:33:22 [Rinke]: yes
17:33:30 [alanr]: Direct Model-Theoretic Semantics
17:33:30 [alanr]: * RDF-Compatible Model-Theoretic Semantics
17:33:36 [bcuencagrau]: yes
17:33:38 [sandro]: 1 - Model-Theoretic Semantics, RDF-Based Semantics
17:33:38 [sandro]: 2 - Semantics of OWL DL, EL, and QL ; Semantics of OWL Full and RL
17:33:38 [sandro]: 3 - First Order Semantics, RDF-Based Semantics
17:33:38 [sandro]: 4 - Primary Semantics, RDF-Based Semantics
17:33:38 [sandro]: 5 - Direct Semantics, RDF-Based Semantics
17:33:39 [sandro]: 6 - Direct Model-Theoretic Semantics; RDF-Compatible Model-Theoretic Semantics
17:33:40 [baojie]: +1 to Rinke's proposal
17:33:46 [m_schnei]: Is "DL Semantics" out ?
17:33:53 [Rinke]: 7- Semantics, RDF-Based Semantics
17:34:05 [sandro]: 7 - DL Semantics; RDF-Based Semantics
17:34:11 [alanr]: + the ones you would like
17:34:18 [alanr]: + likes - wonts
17:34:19 [Rinke]: sure
17:34:19 [sandro]: 8 - Semantics, RDF-Based Semantics
17:34:50 [bcuencagrau]: +5,6 -2,3,4
17:35:00 [baojie]: +8
17:35:05 [Achille]: +1 +6 -4
17:35:13 [sandro]: I like 2, 4, 5; dislike 1, 6, 8; Favorite: 5
17:35:13 [m_schnei]: +7, -3,4,5
17:35:33 [ivan]: Like 5, 7,; do not like 4, 2; favourite 5
17:35:33 [JeffP]: JeffP: +6
17:35:33 [msmith]: +(8,7) -(2,3)
17:35:35 [uli]: uli has left #owl
17:35:36 [Zhe]: + 6 8, -4 5
17:35:36 [Rinke]: + 8,5 - 1,4,6
17:35:37 [MartinD]: +3,8 -4,5,6
17:35:45 [bmotik]: + to 1, 3, 4, 5, 6; - to 2, 7, 8
17:36:18 [uli]: uli has joined #owl
17:36:23 [JeffP]: alanr: we should review this and discuss this in mailing list, so that we will have a vote next week
17:36:32 [m_schnei]: OWL Full is first order, too, even if it doesn't look this way
17:36:37 [JeffP]: Topic: Status reports: Other documents
17:36:39 [uli]: sorry, I got thrown out - i will vote again
17:37:43 [JeffP]: Topic: Conformance and Test Cases
17:38:12 [JeffP]: Topic: Profiles
17:38:29 [JeffP]: alanr: Profiles seems to be in a good shape
17:38:30 [msmith]: q+
17:38:42 [alanr]: ack msmith
17:39:17 [JeffP]: msmith: ...
17:39:34 [JeffP]: alanr: could you draft something and add to the test case doc?
17:39:34 [ivan]: +1 to proposal
17:39:39 [JeffP]: msmith: ok
17:39:40 [msmith]: action: msmith to add an editor's note to test and conformance document re: disposition of test cases
17:39:40 [trackbot]: Sorry, couldn't find user - msmith
17:39:59 [msmith]: action: smith to add an editor's note to test and conformance document re: disposition of test cases
17:39:59 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-208 - Add an editor's note to test and conformance document re: disposition of test cases [on Michael Smith - due 2008-09-24].
17:40:20 [msmith]: +1000 on profiles
17:40:25 [ivan]: :-)
17:40:40 [Rinke]: +1 on +1000 on profiles
17:40:50 [ivan]: :-) :-)
17:40:52 [uli]: + 2 3 4 5 8; - 6 7
17:41:19 [JeffP]: alanr: assuming the reviewers say yes, shall we vote next week?
17:41:34 [JeffP]: ... some expressed that is a good idea
17:42:59 [JeffP]: alanr: JeffP, could you submit your review by this week?
17:43:11 [JeffP]: JeffP: will try to submit by next telecon
17:43:14 [m_schnei]: me
17:43:19 [bcuencagrau]: I can
17:43:31 [m_schnei]: I had already said this in the past
17:43:32 [JeffP]: alanr: any one could review conformance?
17:43:35 [msmith]: I will as well
17:43:51 [JeffP]: ... it is a short doc
17:44:14 [bcuencagrau]: Sure
17:44:19 [JeffP]: ... reviewers: m_schnei, bcuencagra, msmith
17:44:22 [m_schnei]: yes
17:44:24 [msmith]: action: smith to review conformance, due sept-21
17:44:24 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-209 - Review conformance, due sept-21 [on Michael Smith - due 2008-09-24].
17:45:02 [m_schnei]: ACTION: m_schnei to review conformance, due sept-21
17:45:02 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-210 - Review conformance, due sept-21 [on Michael Schneider - due 2008-09-24].
17:45:46 [JeffP]: Topic: Status reports: Other documents
17:45:57 [JeffP]: Topic: Quick Reference Guide
17:46:18 [JeffP]: Jie: folks are not sure about Manchester syntax
17:46:32 [JeffP]: ... since it does not cover OWL Full ontologies
17:46:52 [msmith]: jie, the functional syntax does not support all owl full ontologies
17:46:57 [m_schnei]: q+
17:47:00 [JeffP]: ... and it is difference from the one we have (?) right now
17:47:02 [msmith]: nor does owlxml
17:47:11 [m_schnei]: zakim, unmute me
17:47:11 [Zakim]: m_schnei should no longer be muted
17:47:48 [JeffP]: ... the syntax we have right now is the RDF syntax
17:48:12 [m_schnei]: q-
17:48:16 [JeffP]: alanr: what is the status of the RDF syntax part right now?
17:48:17 [m_schnei]: zakim, mute me
17:48:17 [Zakim]: m_schnei should now be muted
17:48:35 [JeffP]: Jie: the Profile part can be done in two weeks
17:48:36 [m_schnei]: q-
17:48:37 [alanr]: ack m_schnei
17:48:38 [JeffP]: q?
17:48:39 [uli]: q+
17:48:45 [uli]: zakim, unmute me
17:48:45 [Zakim]: uli should no longer be muted
17:48:47 [alanr]: ack uli
17:49:20 [JeffP]: uli: will we have different Quick Guide for different people?
17:50:05 [m_schnei]: every syntax which supports property assertions and bNodes in all positions perfectly supports (extended) RDF :)
17:50:24 [JeffP]: uli: Jie, could you illustrate the differences
17:50:33 [JeffP]: Jie: ...
17:50:41 [JeffP]: uli: any other differences?
17:51:05 [JeffP]: Jie: again, it cannot express OWL Full ontologies
17:52:07 [bcuencagrau]: Zakim, mute me
17:52:07 [Zakim]: bcuencagrau was already muted, bcuencagrau
17:52:20 [JeffP]: uli: this is only a quick reference, some of the detailed restrictions could be ignored in the reference
17:52:21 [ivan]: q+
17:52:30 [ivan]: ack ivan
17:52:31 [JeffP]: uli: ...
17:52:32 [alanr]: ack ivan
17:52:44 [baojie]: Yes, we need some M syntax guru on the M version
17:53:36 [JeffP]: ivan: on the RDF side, it is basically syntax independent
17:53:47 [uli]: zakim, mute me
17:53:47 [Zakim]: uli should now be muted
17:53:48 [JeffP]: ... I don't know which one more widely used
17:54:23 [JeffP]: alanr: agree with uli that let the editors finish the RDF syntax part first
17:54:32 [JeffP]: then discuss further
17:54:43 [JeffP]: Topic: Requirements
17:54:55 [JeffP]: alanr: anyone can comment on this?
17:55:15 [JeffP]: Topic: Issues (50 minutes) - Address as many as possible during allocated time
17:55:27 [JeffP]: # Issue 140 (Named Property Chains) per Ian's email
17:55:38 [JeffP]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Sep/0161.html
17:56:36 [sandro]: PROPOSED: Resolve Issue-140 as postponed (as per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Sep/0161.html)
17:56:39 [uli]: +1
17:56:41 [Rinke]: +1
17:56:44 [Achille]: +1
17:56:44 [bmotik]: +1
17:56:48 [bcuencagrau]: +1
17:56:48 [Zhe]: +1
17:56:48 [JeffP]: +1
17:56:49 [MarkusK]: +1
17:56:50 [MartinD]: +1
17:56:52 [baojie]: +1
17:56:55 [alanr]: +1
17:56:55 [msmith]: 1
17:57:10 [alanr]: pfps: +1
17:57:16 [sandro]: +1
17:57:22 [sandro]: RESOLVED: Resolve Issue-140 as postponed (as per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Sep/0161.html)
17:57:35 [JeffP]: # Issue 71 (datarange language range) per Boris's email
17:57:43 [m_schnei]: q+
17:57:44 [alanr]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Sep/0053.html
17:57:45 [JeffP]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Sep/0053.html
17:58:11 [m_schnei]: q-
17:58:13 [sandro]: PROPOSED: Close issue-71 as per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Sep/0161.html
17:58:29 [bmotik]: +1
17:58:30 [bmotik]: We can incorporate the changes before the draft -- I'll do it over the weekend
17:58:31 [Achille]: +1
17:58:34 [bcuencagrau]: +1
17:58:36 [alanr]: +1
17:58:41 [Rinke]: that's the wrong link
17:58:43 [uli]: +1
17:58:44 [baojie]: +1
17:58:44 [msmith]: +1
17:58:45 [Zhe]: +1
17:58:51 [alanr]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Sep/0053.html
17:59:03 [Rinke]: +1
17:59:07 [sandro]: PROPOSED: Close issue-71 as per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Sep/0053.html
17:59:08 [JeffP]: +1
17:59:12 [bmotik]: +1
17:59:19 [Rinke]: +1
17:59:26 [sandro]: +0 (not sure I get it)
17:59:31 [ivan]: +1
17:59:36 [alanr]: pfps: +1
17:59:42 [sandro]: RESOLVED: Close issue-71 as per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Sep/0053.html
17:59:43 [bmotik]: ACTION: bmotik2 to Implement resolution of ISSUE-71 (before publishing the documents)
17:59:43 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-212 - Implement resolution of ISSUE-71 (before publishing the documents) [on Boris Motik - due 2008-09-24].
17:59:53 [ivan]: q+
18:00:01 [JeffP]: Topic: Other Issue Discussions
18:00:05 [alanr]: ack ivan
18:00:26 [m_schnei]: ACTION: on m_schnei to implement resolution of ISSUE-71 in RDF Based Semantics (before publishing the documents)
18:00:26 [trackbot]: Sorry, couldn't find user - on
18:00:27 [bmotik]: q+
18:00:34 [m_schnei]: ACTION: m_schnei to implement resolution of ISSUE-71 in RDF Based Semantics (before publishing the documents)
18:00:34 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-213 - Implement resolution of ISSUE-71 in RDF Based Semantics (before publishing the documents) [on Michael Schneider - due 2008-09-24].
18:00:37 [bmotik]: Zakim, unmute me
18:00:37 [Zakim]: bmotik should no longer be muted
18:00:45 [Zakim]: -Sandro
18:00:52 [JeffP]: ivan: I prefer having the language patterns in RDF spec
18:01:31 [JeffP]: bmotik: we could progress with datatypes
18:01:55 [m_schnei]: I will at least /repeat/ the facet in the RDF Based Semantics
18:01:58 [JeffP]: ... I agree with you on having a separate doc and copy / paste later on
18:02:18 [JeffP]: ivan: maybe you could add a editorial note
18:02:31 [JeffP]: bmotic: ok
18:02:37 [alanr]: q+
18:02:40 [alanr]: ack bmotik
18:03:07 [JeffP]: ivan: the point is the separate doc could be reusable for other purposes
18:03:31 [m_schnei]: q+
18:03:43 [m_schnei]: zakim, unmute me
18:03:43 [Zakim]: m_schnei was not muted, m_schnei
18:03:44 [JeffP]: alanr: the choices are still open
18:03:44 [alanr]: ack alanr
18:03:48 [alanr]: ack m_schnei
18:04:35 [Zakim]: +Sandro
18:04:39 [m_schnei]: zakim, mute me
18:04:39 [Zakim]: m_schnei should now be muted
18:04:39 [sandro]: zakim, mute me
18:04:40 [Zakim]: Sandro should now be muted
18:04:43 [JeffP]: m_schnei: seems that I will need to do something on the RDF semantics doc too
18:04:44 [bmotik]: I just added this sentence to rdf:text: "It is currently not clear whether this document will contain a definition of facets on rdf:text."
18:05:09 [bmotik]: I can add a note to the Syntax document as well.
18:05:12 [JeffP]: ivan: I am fine with the note
18:05:38 [m_schnei]: I will add the text to the RDF Based Semantics: "It is currently not clear whether the OWL DL Syntax will contain a definition of facets on rdf:text." :)
18:05:39 [JeffP]: Topic: Issue 134 Metamodel for OWL 2
18:06:13 [bmotik]: Zakim, mute me
18:06:13 [Zakim]: bmotik should now be muted
18:06:25 [JeffP]: alanr: should we have metamodel in the rec or just leave it in a note
18:06:41 [bmotik]: q+
18:06:49 [bmotik]: Zakim, unmute me
18:06:49 [Zakim]: bmotik should no longer be muted
18:06:50 [alanr]: straw poll - worth doing work on the metamodel issue?
18:06:57 [alanr]: ack bmotik
18:07:06 [JeffP]: bmotik: we already have metamodel in the spec
18:07:21 [JeffP]: ... so I don't understand the quesetion
18:07:42 [uli]: would it be more accessible, for example for visually impaired people?
18:08:01 [JeffP]: bmotik: I doubt it
18:08:10 [JeffP]: ... it is in an XML file
18:08:18 [uli]: thanks!
18:08:38 [JeffP]: bmotik: now it is normative
18:08:42 [uli]: apart from more work, would the XML have any impact?
18:09:40 [JeffP]: ... will replace existing diagrams with ones from PeterH
18:09:41 [uli]: q+
18:09:48 [uli]: zakim, unmute me
18:09:48 [Zakim]: uli should no longer be muted
18:09:52 [alanr]: ack uli
18:10:05 [JeffP]: uli: would the XML have any impact?
18:10:13 [JeffP]: ... or just additional work?
18:10:57 [ivan]: q+
18:11:07 [JeffP]: bmotic: people could generate metamodel transformation
18:11:14 [alanr]: ack ivan
18:11:15 [uli]: zakim, mute me
18:11:15 [Zakim]: uli should now be muted
18:11:20 [JeffP]: ... so as to make the spec more useful
18:11:41 [JeffP]: ivan: how much work is needed?
18:12:30 [JeffP]: bmotik: need to use some software to produce the diagram
18:13:24 [JeffP]: ivan: there is still extra costs
18:13:44 [JeffP]: ... I prefer making it a note
18:13:55 [JeffP]: ... my innitial reaction only
18:14:13 [JeffP]: bmotik: two possibilities: one as Appendix in some doc
18:14:58 [JeffP]: ... one in a separate note
18:15:18 [JeffP]: ... it is only a diagram
18:15:33 [MarkusK]: +1 to boris
18:15:52 [JeffP]: Achille: ok with the metamodel
18:16:03 [JeffP]: ... but not sure note or rec
18:16:08 [Zakim]: -Sandro
18:16:46 [uli]: which 'mikel'?
18:16:52 [ivan]: :-)
18:17:02 [Zakim]: +Sandro
18:17:11 [m_schnei]: zakim, unmute me
18:17:11 [Zakim]: m_schnei should no longer be muted
18:17:45 [m_schnei]: zakim, mute me
18:17:45 [Zakim]: m_schnei should now be muted
18:18:12 [Zakim]: -Sandro
18:18:14 [bmotik]: q+
18:18:22 [Zakim]: +Sandro
18:18:57 [Zakim]: -Sandro
18:19:04 [JeffP]: bmotik: we could ask PeterH to upload it to the wiki
18:19:16 [JeffP]: ... it is an XML doc
18:19:16 [Zakim]: +Sandro
18:19:32 [MarkusK]: there is a whitelist of allowed formats, I assume .xml is not there by default
18:19:58 [JeffP]: alanr: any open source software that we could use?
18:20:22 [JeffP]: alanr: could you find out?
18:20:27 [JeffP]: bmotik: sure
18:20:50 [JeffP]: Topic: Issue 137 Table 4 in RDF mapping introduces incompatibility with OWL 1
18:20:51 [Zakim]: -MartinD
18:20:56 [MartinD]: MartinD has left #OWL
18:22:39 [JeffP]: alanr: it is not clear if RDF needs a import mechanism
18:23:41 [alanr]: zakim, who is here?
18:23:41 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Alan_Ruttenberg, bcuencagrau (muted), Ivan, Rinke (muted), MarkusK, m_schnei (muted), pfps (muted), JeffP, bmotik, baojie, msmith, uli (muted), Zhe (muted),
18:23:41 [JeffP]: ... anyone want to comment? Peter still online?
18:23:44 [Zakim]: ... Achille, Sandro
18:23:45 [Zakim]: On IRC I see uli, Achille, bmotik, Zhe, msmith, baojie, m_schnei, MarkusK, bcuencagrau, ivan, alanr, RRSAgent, Zakim, JeffP, Rinke, sandro, trackbot
18:23:47 [Zakim]: -Rinke
18:24:51 [JeffP]: ivan: it would be helpful if I understand the motivation better
18:25:32 [Zakim]: -pfps
18:26:39 [JeffP]: alan explains the context
18:27:52 [JeffP]: ivan: we will look into it seriously
18:28:20 [JeffP]: ... we need more discussions
18:28:29 [JeffP]: sandro: agree
18:29:06 [Zakim]: -msmith
18:29:07 [JeffP]: thanks, bye
18:29:10 [Zakim]: -Zhe
18:29:10 [MarkusK]: bye
18:29:11 [m_schnei]: bye
18:29:14 [Zakim]: -MarkusK
18:29:15 [Zhe]: bye
18:29:16 [Zakim]: -baojie
18:29:17 [Zakim]: -bmotik
18:29:18 [Zakim]: -Alan_Ruttenberg
18:29:19 [uli]: bye
18:29:19 [Zakim]: -Sandro
18:29:20 [Zakim]: -m_schnei
18:29:22 [Zakim]: -Achille
18:29:23 [Zakim]: -uli
18:29:25 [Zakim]: -bcuencagrau
18:29:34 [Zakim]: -Ivan
18:29:57 [JeffP]: RRSAgent, make records public
18:46:38 [Zakim]: -JeffP
18:46:40 [Zakim]: SW_OWL()1:00PM has ended
18:46:41 [Zakim]: Attendees were MartinD, Alan_Ruttenberg, Ivan, bcuencagrau, +31.20.525.aaaa, Rinke, MarkusK, +1.908.612.aabb, m_schnei, JeffP, Sandro, pfps, baojie, bmotik, msmith, uli, Zhe,
18:46:43 [Zakim]: ... Achille
20:36:10 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #owl