IRC log of css on 2008-09-17

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:05:58 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #css
16:05:58 [RRSAgent]
logging to
16:05:59 [Zakim]
+ +1.858.792.aabb
16:06:11 [dbaron]
Zakim, aabb is Ming
16:06:11 [Zakim]
+Ming; got it
16:06:12 [melinda]
meeting: CSS Weekly Teleconference
16:06:20 [melinda]
chair: Daniel Glazman
16:06:29 [melinda]
scribe: melinda
16:06:48 [melinda]
Topic: Agenda
16:06:49 [Zakim]
+ +1.408.536.aacc
16:06:50 [glazou]
16:07:03 [melinda]
David: I sent an item for SVGMobile Last Call
16:07:11 [Zakim]
16:07:31 [dbaron]
Zakim, aacc is SteveZ
16:07:31 [Zakim]
+SteveZ; got it
16:07:34 [melinda]
Zakim, attendees
16:07:34 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'attendees', melinda
16:07:41 [dbaron]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
16:07:41 [Zakim]
On the phone I see glazou, plinss, fantasai, [Mozilla], Melinda_Grant, anne, MohamedZergaoui, Bert, Jason_Cranford_Teague, Ming, SteveZ, [Microsoft]
16:07:43 [Zakim]
[Mozilla] has David_Baron
16:07:49 [melinda]
Zakim, who is here?
16:07:49 [Zakim]
On the phone I see glazou, plinss, fantasai, [Mozilla], Melinda_Grant, anne, MohamedZergaoui, Bert, Jason_Cranford_Teague, Ming, SteveZ, [Microsoft]
16:07:51 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, Ming, jason_cranfordtea, dbaron, myakura, melinda, Zakim, MoZ, glazou, Hixie, jdaggett, anne, arronei, Bert, plinss, shepazu, DanC, krijnh, trackbot,
16:07:52 [alexmog]
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16:07:53 [Zakim]
[Mozilla] has David_Baron
16:07:54 [Zakim]
... fantasai
16:08:53 [melinda]
Bert: Not a lot of comments;
16:09:08 [melinda]
Bert updates us on the minor changes summarized in his email.
16:09:55 [melinda]
Daniel: In fact we are back to the previous state where we didn't mention the REC track.
16:10:07 [melinda]
...Steve, are you ok with these changes?
16:10:31 [melinda]
...You were most concerned about which modules were in scope for legal reasons?
16:10:50 [melinda]
Steve: I'll need to check with Adobe legal. But I'm not surprised about these changes.
16:11:22 [melinda]
Daniel: Hakon isn't here, but left us with a comment asking to move GCPM up from low priority modules.
16:11:36 [melinda]
...I'm a bit reluctant to do that without committment for implementations.
16:12:09 [melinda]
Peter: I don't have a problem moving it into the 'medium' priority list, but we can't move it into the 'high' priority list.
16:12:36 [glazou]
dbaron: correct, EDF
16:12:41 [melinda]
Alex: Do we have two implementations of 'variables'?
16:13:10 [glazou]
Bert: s/Disruptive Innovations/Electricité de France although I'd really prefer that mention to be dropped...
16:13:22 [melinda]
fantasai: We have one implementation and another 'high interest'.
16:13:45 [fantasai]
16:14:11 [melinda]
Alex: It would probably help to have an implementation count next to modules.
16:15:18 [melinda]
Peter: We collected that info, we can publish it I guess.
16:15:24 [fantasai]
16:15:57 [melinda]
Daniel: Anyone have problems with the charter now?
16:16:27 [melinda]
(Some discussion about changing the liaisson section.
16:17:37 [melinda]
Daniel: I suggest we wait for Adobe's reply regarding the charter.
16:17:51 [Zakim]
+ +1.425.533.aadd
16:18:00 [dbaron]
Issues list for css3-color LC is at
16:18:04 [dbaron]
Zakim, aadd is Saloni
16:18:04 [Zakim]
+Saloni; got it
16:18:14 [melinda]
Topic: CSS3 Color
16:18:25 [melinda]
David: I just have one implementation report so far.
16:18:36 [melinda]
... I should probably write one myself for Webkit.
16:18:54 [melinda]
... So I can't really say yet we're ready to move to PR.
16:19:02 [SaloniR]
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16:19:13 [melinda]
... It's possible we may need to look to Opera as well, because Webkit may be missing a couple.
16:19:39 [melinda]
...I've proposed resolutions to some of the issues remaining, so we could discuss them I think.
16:19:47 [melinda]
Steve: Is CMYK in or out?
16:19:53 [melinda]
David: Out.
16:20:11 [melinda]
fantasai: I checked with HP, and there's really no defined standard for CMYK.
16:21:08 [melinda]
Steve: I checked with ICC about standardizing CMYK, and they indicated there are three (US, Europe, Japan).
16:21:30 [melinda]
... None are suitable, but there is apparently some interest in coming up with a default that's interoperable.
16:22:00 [melinda]
Daniel: David, I see 19 issues on your page.
16:22:12 [melinda]
David: Issue 2
16:22:25 [anne]
(I don't think Opera does 'opacity' entirely correct yet. rgba() and such have been implemented as part of Acid3 work though are not in release builds.)
16:22:26 [melinda]
...There's a request to restructure the TOC.
16:22:50 [melinda]
... There's an advantage to keeping the current numbering because people have been using it for years.
16:23:11 [melinda]
...On the other hand the spec could benefit from some reorg.
16:23:19 [melinda]
Daniel: So the proposal is to move gamma correction...
16:23:26 [glazou]
16:23:44 [melinda]
David: That's a minor part; the bulk of the proposal's in the first URL's in the issue.
16:24:18 [melinda]
Anne: I think it's best to keep as is; we can reorg in level 4 as necessary.
16:24:37 [melinda]
fantasai: How about we remove dependencies?
16:25:04 [melinda]
...Remove Section 2 and put gamma correction (scribe lost it...)
16:26:01 [fantasai]
David: there's an issue on removing the gamma correction section since it's mostly wrong
16:26:06 [melinda]
David: There's another proposal to remove the gamma section, so don't get too into the details of where it goes yet.
16:26:26 [melinda]
David: My tendency is to keep it pretty much as is.
16:26:48 [melinda]
Daniel: Yes, let's keep it as is and move things around for CSS4.
16:27:29 [melinda]
David: Another thing I want to discuss (not really in css3-color, but affects the whole group)
16:27:39 [dbaron]
16:27:45 [melinda]
...People don't really like our use of the word 'interoperable'.
16:28:03 [melinda]
Melinda: I agree.
16:28:48 [melinda]
... but it's broadly misused within the W3.
16:28:58 [melinda]
Daniel: Yes, this goes far beyond the CSS WG.
16:29:37 [melinda]
...Let's leave the wording as is and I will take it to the mailing list for W3C chairs or the HTCG.
16:29:48 [Bert]
("Interoperable" is the word used in the W3C process document...)
16:30:17 [melinda]
David: Many of the other issues are trivial in that they are totally editorial or they're proposing new features that we're obviously not going to add now.
16:30:35 [melinda]
...There are a few others that I would like to propose solutions for before we discuss.
16:30:48 [melinda]
Daniel: Conference call or upcoming f2f?
16:31:02 [melinda]
David: I think it depends on how quickly I can get to them.
16:31:24 [glazou]
16:31:30 [melinda]
Topic: Negative border spacing
16:31:44 [dbaron]
16:31:51 [dbaron]
16:32:22 [melinda]
fantasai: Now negative lengths are not allowed, but it's been discussed on www-style to get some interesting effects without actually collapsing...
16:32:34 [melinda]
...When do we want to tackle this, as a 2.1 or a 3 issue?
16:33:33 [melinda]
fantasai discusses some issues...
16:34:04 [melinda]
David: This is not something I want to be rushing to implement, so I don't think it's for 2.1.
16:34:24 [melinda]
fantasai: We could say in 2.1 that negative widths are clampled to 0, that way they get parsed.
16:34:46 [melinda]
David: Which would be yet another change to what UA's do now.
16:35:22 [melinda]
Bert: It's better to keep disallowing neg lengths in 2.1, and target this for Level 3.
16:36:21 [melinda]
Melinda: My preference would be not to change 2.1 unless we need to.
16:36:24 [SaloniR]
no objection
16:36:41 [melinda]
Daniel, David: We should keep it on the radar for CSS3.
16:36:53 [fantasai]
16:36:58 [glazou]
16:37:07 [melinda]
RESOLVED: Not for 2.1, keep for 3.
16:37:19 [melinda]
Topic: Issue 63, new background shorthand
16:37:35 [anne]
16:37:58 [glazou]
16:38:42 [Hixie]
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16:38:45 [melinda]
fantasai: I remember having an issue to remove the parens for background shorthand.
16:39:28 [melinda]
Anne: The previous draft does use the parentheses. Why did we decide to change this?
16:40:03 [melinda]
fantasai: Because we don't yet use them, and it didn't seem necessary here (we wanted to save them for other disambiguation).
16:40:12 [fantasai]
where grouping is important
16:40:34 [melinda]
fantasai: I think Bert and I should take a closer look at this.
16:41:06 [melinda]
David: this is not urgent for me yet because we're not implementing background size yet. You could possibly use a fn.
16:41:16 [melinda]
fantasai: but the value itself doesn't take a function.
16:41:32 [melinda]
... we do use a slash in the font shorthand.
16:41:45 [melinda]
David: But there it's used after a mandatory part.
16:42:05 [melinda]
fantasai: I understand there's a problem here, but I'm not convinced fn notation is the answer.
16:42:42 [melinda]
ACTION: Bert to propose new syntax.
16:42:42 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-105 - Propose new syntax. [on Bert Bos - due 2008-09-24].
16:43:19 [glazou]
SVG MObile
16:43:19 [dbaron]
16:43:31 [melinda]
Topic: SVGMobile
16:43:45 [shepazu]
I'm here if anyone has questions
16:43:54 [melinda]
David: They issues a Last Call with a 4 week review period.
16:44:03 [melinda]
16:44:35 [dbaron]
I'd note Chapter 10 has font-* properties (CSS2.0 definitions, via XSL) and a bunch of text properties (mostly different from ours)
16:44:46 [melinda]
David: I encourage everyone to look at this. They are using different definitions for our font and text properties.
16:44:47 [Zakim]
16:44:57 [fantasai]
anne, see this message wrt background shorthand -
16:45:02 [shepazu]
16:45:18 [melinda]
Daniel: We need an extensive review of our properties versus theirs...
16:45:54 [melinda]
Doug: Are there major differences in this draft?
16:45:56 [glazou]
ack shepazu
16:46:04 [melinda]
David: The flowing text stuff is new.
16:46:42 [melinda]
Doug: I want to be sure we don't open old wounds for stuff that's been in there for several years.
16:46:53 [fantasai]
ACTION fantasai review text properties in svg draft
16:46:53 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-106 - Review text properties in svg draft [on Elika Etemad - due 2008-09-24].
16:46:56 [melinda]
s/I want/I just want/
16:48:10 [melinda]
Doug: One of the issues with Tiny is that we're playing catch-up with implementations, and we really need to get this wrapped up.
16:48:30 [melinda]
... We're not as constrained wrt the 2.0 family.
16:48:55 [melinda]
s/with Tiny/with the 1.x series of Tiny/
16:49:05 [Zakim]
16:49:25 [melinda]
ACTION bert review svg draft
16:49:25 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-107 - Review svg draft [on Bert Bos - due 2008-09-24].
16:50:32 [melinda]
Melinda: Do we want to coordinate a group review or just send out individual comments?
16:50:44 [melinda]
David: I suggest individual review because of the size.
16:51:03 [melinda]
Daniel: I agree.
16:52:41 [melinda]
... If we see an issue we think is quite large, we can comment on it as a group. But for smaller things, I think individual comments will be more efficient.
16:53:06 [melinda]
fantasai: I see rather large issues...
16:53:14 [melinda]
Daniel: What about a wiki page?
16:53:41 [melinda]
...we can collect comments there and send the whole page...
16:54:09 [melinda]
fantasai: I'm of the opinion we should send individual comments and deal with problems that arise from that as a group.
16:55:15 [glazou]
"Please send comments to"
16:55:38 [melinda]
We will send issues to www-svg, and cc www-style, and add a link to the archive on an issues list on the wiki.
16:56:20 [melinda]
Each person submitting an issue needs to update the wiki.
16:56:41 [melinda]
Peter: You can add a note on the wiki about group discussion as necessary.
16:57:02 [melinda]
Daniel: Other agenda items?
16:57:15 [melinda]
Steve: I will miss the next three meetings due to travel.
16:57:24 [Zakim]
16:57:56 [fantasai]
Steve: Jason, do you have an overview of your website redesign plan?
16:58:09 [fantasai]
Jason: No, my manager's been pulling back on how much time I can spend on this stuff
16:58:30 [fantasai]
Jason: Direction we outlined in San Diego is on hold until IJ's site-wide redesign goes forward
16:58:37 [fantasai]
Jason: We need to figure out how we fit into that
16:58:54 [melinda]
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16:59:32 [melinda]
rrsagent, make logs public
16:59:45 [fantasai]
Fantasai: I think the information design is going to stay mostly the same, but the visuals might change a lot from what we discussed in SD
16:59:48 [melinda]
rrsagent, create minutes
16:59:48 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate melinda
16:59:57 [Zakim]
16:59:59 [Zakim]
17:00:00 [Zakim]
17:00:01 [Zakim]
17:00:01 [Zakim]
17:00:03 [Zakim]
17:00:04 [Zakim]
17:00:04 [Zakim]
17:00:05 [Zakim]
17:00:07 [Zakim]
17:00:09 [Zakim]
17:00:35 [Zakim]
17:00:35 [Zakim]
Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:00:36 [Zakim]
Attendees were glazou, plinss, fantasai, David_Baron, Melinda_Grant, MohamedZergaoui, anne, Bert, Jason_Cranford_Teague, +1.858.792.aabb, Ming, +1.408.536.aacc, [Microsoft],
17:00:38 [Zakim]
... SteveZ, +1.425.533.aadd, Saloni, Shepazu
17:02:24 [melinda]
rrsagent, create minutes
17:02:24 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate melinda
17:02:30 [Ming]
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17:02:33 [MoZ]
fantasai, what is the link to the wiki page ?
17:02:39 [fantasai]
haven't created it yet
17:02:40 [Ming]
17:02:41 [Ming]
17:02:46 [fantasai]
I'll send a link to w3c-css-wg
17:03:32 [MoZ]
fantasai: thx
17:11:19 [arronei]
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18:40:49 [plinss]
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19:02:25 [alexmog]
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19:08:27 [fantasai]
ACTION Daniel take to HTCG/chairs
19:08:28 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-108 - Take to HTCG/chairs [on Daniel Glazman - due 2008-09-24].
21:06:53 [dbaron]
fantasai, [1.2T-LC] was the email prefix suggested in SVGMobile12
21:09:48 [shepazu]
should I reply to www-style as well as www-svg?
21:10:29 [shepazu]
I'm concerned that our action and issue numbers might get mixed up in our respective Trackers, and also that it would generate a lot of cross-list posting...
21:10:46 [shepazu]
but I also don't want people to get left out of the loop...
21:11:01 [shepazu]
dbaron, fantasai, suggestions?
21:11:24 [shepazu]
in general, I don't think it's a good idea to crosspost for LC questions
21:11:31 [dbaron]
I don't either.
21:11:39 [dbaron]
Not sure why everyone was saying that in the telecon.
21:12:05 [shepazu]
ok, I'll reply only to www-svg and the original poster
21:12:45 [shepazu]
and our tracker is publicly visible, so you can always track all comments
22:20:22 [fantasai]
I think the main benefit is so that we can keep track of each others' CSS-related comments.
22:20:35 [fantasai]
reply-to www-svg is fine imo
22:21:22 [shepazu]
ok, I'll do that in the future, but I think you should be BCCing
22:21:45 [shepazu]
cuz I already screwed up and CCed www-style and i18n
22:22:07 [anne]
CSS WG members can just read ...
22:22:58 [fantasai]
shepazu: makes sense to me
22:23:22 [shepazu]
22:24:54 [fantasai]
anne: sorry, I don't care enough to read all www-svg traffic :) (No offense, shepazu.)
22:25:18 [shepazu]
up yours, fantasai, SVG is hte most important thing in the world!!
22:25:33 [shepazu]
I mean... uh, yeah, no offense taken
22:25:44 [anne]
once you filter out shepazu there's not that much e-mail :)
22:25:54 [fantasai]
22:25:59 [shepazu]
22:26:23 [shepazu]
especially now that jonathan chetwynd left all the w3c mailing lists
22:26:49 [anne]
I noticed, that was a weird goodbye
22:27:09 [shepazu]
actually, I don't like reading email via a browser, so I rarely check other lists that I'm not subscribed to
22:27:43 [shepazu]
anne: I asked him to be more polite and productive in his comments, and he didn't think that was appropriate
22:27:48 [anne]
I check other lists a few times each week, using shift+directional keys makes it easy
22:28:04 [anne]
and I have some URL shortcuts in Opera too
22:28:23 [shepazu]
but it's kind of a shame... chetwynd was great at identifying problems, even if he wasn't as good at coming up with solutions :(
22:28:26 [anne]
e.g. mml w3c-css-wg
22:28:46 [shepazu]
there are several changes in the spec I'd attribute directly to him
22:28:52 [fantasai]
shepazu: did you tell him that?
22:28:58 [shepazu]
fantasai: many times
22:29:46 [shepazu]
actually, I think he's gotten involved in some project that is taking most of his time
22:30:17 [shepazu]
so, the farewell was a bit over-the-top
22:37:12 [fantasai]
22:39:07 [shepazu]
23:22:44 [anne]
anne has joined #css