16:05:58 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #css
16:05:58 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/09/17-css-irc
16:05:59 <Zakim> + +1.858.792.aabb
16:06:11 <dbaron> Zakim, aabb is Ming
16:06:11 <Zakim> +Ming; got it
16:06:12 <melinda> meeting: CSS Weekly Teleconference
16:06:20 <melinda> chair: Daniel Glazman
16:06:29 <melinda> scribe: melinda
16:06:48 <melinda> Topic: Agenda
16:06:49 <Zakim> + +1.408.536.aacc
16:06:50 <glazou> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGMobile12/
16:07:03 <melinda> David: I sent an item for SVGMobile Last Call
16:07:11 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
16:07:31 <dbaron> Zakim, aacc is SteveZ
16:07:31 <Zakim> +SteveZ; got it
16:07:34 <melinda> Zakim, attendees
16:07:34 <Zakim> I don't understand 'attendees', melinda
16:07:41 <dbaron> Zakim, who is on the phone?
16:07:41 <Zakim> On the phone I see glazou, plinss, fantasai, [Mozilla], Melinda_Grant, anne, MohamedZergaoui, Bert, Jason_Cranford_Teague, Ming, SteveZ, [Microsoft]
16:07:43 <Zakim> [Mozilla] has David_Baron
16:07:49 <melinda> Zakim, who is here?
16:07:49 <Zakim> On the phone I see glazou, plinss, fantasai, [Mozilla], Melinda_Grant, anne, MohamedZergaoui, Bert, Jason_Cranford_Teague, Ming, SteveZ, [Microsoft]
16:07:51 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Ming, jason_cranfordtea, dbaron, myakura, melinda, Zakim, MoZ, glazou, Hixie, jdaggett, anne, arronei, Bert, plinss, shepazu, DanC, krijnh, trackbot,
16:07:52 <alexmog> alexmog has joined #css
16:07:53 <Zakim> [Mozilla] has David_Baron
16:07:54 <Zakim> ... fantasai
16:08:53 <melinda> Bert: Not a lot of comments; 
16:09:08 <melinda> Bert updates us on the minor changes summarized in his email.
16:09:55 <melinda> Daniel: In fact we are back to the previous state where we didn't mention the REC track.
16:10:07 <melinda> ...Steve, are you ok with these changes?
16:10:31 <melinda> ...You were most concerned about which modules were in scope for legal reasons?
16:10:50 <melinda> Steve: I'll need to check with Adobe legal.  But I'm not surprised about these changes.
16:11:22 <melinda> Daniel: Hakon isn't here, but left us with a comment asking to move GCPM up from low priority modules.
16:11:36 <melinda> ...I'm a bit reluctant to do that without committment for implementations.
16:12:09 <melinda> Peter: I don't have a problem moving it into the 'medium' priority list, but we can't move it into the 'high' priority list.
16:12:36 <glazou> dbaron: correct, EDF
16:12:41 <melinda> Alex: Do we have two implementations of 'variables'?
16:13:10 <glazou> Bert: s/Disruptive Innovations/Electricité de France although I'd really prefer that mention to be dropped...
16:13:22 <melinda> fantasai: We have one implementation and another 'high interest'.
16:13:45 <fantasai> s/./?/
16:14:11 <melinda> Alex: It would probably help to have an implementation count next to modules.
16:15:18 <melinda> Peter: We collected that info, we can publish it I guess.
16:15:24 <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008May/0033.html
16:15:57 <melinda> Daniel: Anyone have problems with the charter now?
16:16:27 <melinda> (Some discussion about changing the liaisson section.
16:17:37 <melinda> Daniel: I suggest we wait for Adobe's reply regarding the charter.
16:17:51 <Zakim> + +1.425.533.aadd
16:18:00 <dbaron> Issues list for css3-color LC is at http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css3-color
16:18:04 <dbaron> Zakim, aadd is Saloni
16:18:04 <Zakim> +Saloni; got it
16:18:14 <melinda> Topic: CSS3 Color
16:18:25 <melinda> David: I just have one implementation report so far.
16:18:36 <melinda> ... I should probably write one myself for Webkit.
16:18:54 <melinda> ... So I can't really say yet we're ready to move to PR.
16:19:02 <SaloniR> SaloniR has joined #css
16:19:13 <melinda> ... It's possible we may need to look to Opera as well, because Webkit may be missing a couple.
16:19:39 <melinda> ...I've proposed resolutions to some of the issues remaining, so we could discuss them I think.
16:19:47 <melinda> Steve: Is CMYK in or out?
16:19:53 <melinda> David: Out.
16:20:11 <melinda> fantasai: I checked with HP, and there's really no defined standard for CMYK.
16:21:08 <melinda> Steve: I checked with ICC about standardizing CMYK, and they indicated there are three (US, Europe, Japan).
16:21:30 <melinda> ... None are suitable, but there is apparently some interest in coming up with a default that's interoperable.
16:22:00 <melinda> Daniel: David, I see 19 issues on your page.
16:22:12 <melinda> David: Issue 2
16:22:25 <anne> (I don't think Opera does 'opacity' entirely correct yet. rgba() and such have been implemented as part of Acid3 work though are not in release builds.)
16:22:26 <melinda> ...There's a request to restructure the TOC.
16:22:50 <melinda> ... There's an advantage to keeping the current numbering because people have been using it for years.
16:23:11 <melinda> ...On the other hand the spec could benefit from some reorg.
16:23:19 <melinda> Daniel: So the proposal is to move gamma correction...
16:23:26 <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Mar/0405.html
16:23:44 <melinda> David: That's a minor part; the bulk of the proposal's in the first URL's in the issue.
16:24:18 <melinda> Anne: I think it's best to keep as is; we can reorg in level 4 as necessary.
16:24:37 <melinda> fantasai: How about we remove dependencies?
16:25:04 <melinda> ...Remove Section 2 and put gamma correction (scribe lost it...)
16:26:01 <fantasai> David: there's an issue on removing the gamma correction section since it's mostly wrong
16:26:06 <melinda> David: There's another proposal to remove the gamma section, so don't get too into the details of where it goes yet.
16:26:26 <melinda> David: My tendency is to keep it pretty much as is.
16:26:48 <melinda> Daniel: Yes, let's keep it as is and move things around for CSS4.
16:27:29 <melinda> David: Another thing I want to discuss (not really in css3-color, but affects the whole group)
16:27:39 <dbaron> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Sep/0006.html
16:27:45 <melinda> ...People don't really like our use of the word 'interoperable'.
16:28:03 <melinda> Melinda: I agree.
16:28:48 <melinda> ... but it's broadly misused within the W3.
16:28:58 <melinda> Daniel: Yes, this goes far beyond the CSS WG.
16:29:37 <melinda> ...Let's leave the wording as is and I will take it to the mailing list for W3C chairs or the HTCG.
16:29:48 <Bert> ("Interoperable" is the word used in the W3C process document...)
16:30:17 <melinda> David: Many of the other issues are trivial in that they are totally editorial or they're proposing new features that we're obviously not going to add now.
16:30:35 <melinda> ...There are a few others that I would like to propose solutions for before we discuss.
16:30:48 <melinda> Daniel: Conference call or upcoming f2f?
16:31:02 <melinda> David: I think it depends on how quickly I can get to them.
16:31:24 <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2008JulSep/0207.html
16:31:30 <melinda> Topic: Negative border spacing
16:31:44 <dbaron> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Sep/0060.html
16:31:51 <dbaron> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Sep/0161.html
16:32:22 <melinda> fantasai: Now negative lengths are not allowed, but it's been discussed on www-style to get some interesting effects without actually collapsing...
16:32:34 <melinda> ...When do we want to tackle this, as a 2.1 or a 3 issue?
16:33:33 <melinda> fantasai discusses some issues...
16:34:04 <melinda> David: This is not something I want to be rushing to implement, so I don't think it's for 2.1.
16:34:24 <melinda> fantasai: We could say in 2.1 that negative widths are clampled to 0, that way they get parsed.
16:34:46 <melinda> David: Which would be yet another change to what UA's do now.
16:35:22 <melinda> Bert: It's better to keep disallowing neg lengths in 2.1, and target this for Level 3.
16:36:21 <melinda> Melinda: My preference would be not to change 2.1 unless we need to.
16:36:24 <SaloniR> no objection
16:36:41 <melinda> Daniel, David: We should keep it on the radar for CSS3.
16:36:53 <fantasai> http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/issues/64
16:36:58 <glazou> http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/issues/63
16:37:07 <melinda> RESOLVED: Not for 2.1, keep for 3.
16:37:19 <melinda> Topic: Issue 63, new background shorthand
16:37:35 <anne> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Sep/0145.html
16:37:58 <glazou> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Sep/0142.html
16:38:42 <Hixie> Hixie has joined #css
16:38:45 <melinda> fantasai: I remember having an issue to remove the parens for background shorthand.
16:39:28 <melinda> Anne: The previous draft does use the parentheses.  Why did we decide to change this?
16:40:03 <melinda> fantasai: Because we don't yet use them, and it didn't seem necessary here (we wanted to save them for other disambiguation).
16:40:12 <fantasai> where grouping is important
16:40:34 <melinda> fantasai: I think Bert and I should take a closer look at this.
16:41:06 <melinda> David: this is not urgent for me yet because we're not implementing background size yet.  You could possibly use a fn.
16:41:16 <melinda> fantasai: but the value itself doesn't take a function.
16:41:32 <melinda> ... we do use a slash in the font shorthand.
16:41:45 <melinda> David: But there it's used after a mandatory part.
16:42:05 <melinda> fantasai: I understand there's a problem here, but I'm not convinced fn notation is the answer.
16:42:42 <melinda> ACTION: Bert to propose new syntax.
16:42:42 <trackbot> Created ACTION-105 - Propose new syntax. [on Bert Bos - due 2008-09-24].
16:43:19 <glazou> SVG MObile
16:43:19 <dbaron> http://www.w3.org/TR/SVGMobile12/
16:43:31 <melinda> Topic: SVGMobile
16:43:45 <shepazu> I'm here if anyone has questions
16:43:54 <melinda> David: They issues a Last Call with a 4 week review period.
16:44:03 <melinda> s/issues/issued/
16:44:35 <dbaron> I'd note Chapter 10 has font-* properties (CSS2.0 definitions, via XSL) and a bunch of text properties (mostly different from ours)
16:44:46 <melinda> David: I encourage everyone to look at this.  They are using different definitions for our font and text properties.
16:44:47 <Zakim> +Shepazu
16:44:57 <fantasai> anne, see this message wrt background shorthand - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2006May/0121.html
16:45:02 <shepazu> q+
16:45:18 <melinda> Daniel: We need an extensive review of our properties versus theirs...
16:45:54 <melinda> Doug: Are there major differences in this draft?
16:45:56 <glazou> ack shepazu
16:46:04 <melinda> David: The flowing text stuff is new.
16:46:42 <melinda> Doug: I want to be sure we don't open old wounds for stuff that's been in there for several years.
16:46:53 <fantasai> ACTION fantasai review text properties in svg draft
16:46:53 <trackbot> Created ACTION-106 - Review text properties in svg draft [on Elika Etemad - due 2008-09-24].
16:46:56 <melinda> s/I want/I just want/
16:48:10 <melinda> Doug: One of the issues with Tiny is that we're playing catch-up with implementations, and we really need to get this wrapped up.
16:48:30 <melinda> ... We're not as constrained wrt the 2.0 family.
16:48:55 <melinda> s/with Tiny/with the 1.x series of Tiny/
16:49:05 <Zakim> -Shepazu
16:49:25 <melinda> ACTION bert review svg draft
16:49:25 <trackbot> Created ACTION-107 - Review svg draft [on Bert Bos - due 2008-09-24].
16:50:32 <melinda> Melinda: Do we want to coordinate a group review or just send out individual comments?
16:50:44 <melinda> David: I suggest individual review because of the size.
16:51:03 <melinda> Daniel: I agree.
16:52:41 <melinda> ... If we see an issue we think is quite large, we can comment on it as a group.  But for smaller things, I think individual comments will be more efficient.
16:53:06 <melinda> fantasai: I see rather large issues...
16:53:14 <melinda> Daniel: What about a wiki page?
16:53:41 <melinda> ...we can collect comments there and send the whole page...
16:54:09 <melinda> fantasai: I'm of the opinion we should send individual comments and deal with problems that arise from that as a group.
16:55:15 <glazou> "Please send comments to www-svg@w3.org"
16:55:38 <melinda> We will send issues to www-svg, and cc www-style, and add a link to the archive on an issues list on the wiki.
16:56:20 <melinda> Each person submitting an issue needs to update the wiki.
16:56:41 <melinda> Peter: You can add a note on the wiki about group discussion as necessary.
16:57:02 <melinda> Daniel: Other agenda items?
16:57:15 <melinda> Steve: I will miss the next three meetings due to travel.
16:57:24 <Zakim> -Melinda_Grant
16:57:56 <fantasai> Steve: Jason, do you have an overview of your website redesign plan?
16:58:09 <fantasai> Jason: No, my manager's been pulling back on how much time I can spend on this stuff
16:58:30 <fantasai> Jason: Direction we outlined in San Diego is on hold until IJ's site-wide redesign goes forward
16:58:37 <fantasai> Jason: We need to figure out how we fit into that
16:58:54 <melinda> melinda has joined #CSS
16:59:32 <melinda> rrsagent, make logs public
16:59:45 <fantasai> Fantasai: I think the information design is going to stay mostly the same, but the visuals might change a lot from what we discussed in SD
16:59:48 <melinda> rrsagent, create minutes
16:59:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/09/17-css-minutes.html melinda
16:59:57 <Zakim> -[Mozilla]
16:59:59 <Zakim> -Jason_Cranford_Teague
17:00:00 <Zakim> -Ming
17:00:01 <Zakim> -SteveZ
17:00:01 <Zakim> -anne
17:00:03 <Zakim> -plinss
17:00:04 <Zakim> -MohamedZergaoui
17:00:04 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
17:00:05 <Zakim> -glazou
17:00:07 <Zakim> -fantasai
17:00:09 <Zakim> -Saloni
17:00:35 <Zakim> -Bert
17:00:35 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
17:00:36 <Zakim> Attendees were glazou, plinss, fantasai, David_Baron, Melinda_Grant, MohamedZergaoui, anne, Bert, Jason_Cranford_Teague, +1.858.792.aabb, Ming, +1.408.536.aacc, [Microsoft],
17:00:38 <Zakim> ... SteveZ, +1.425.533.aadd, Saloni, Shepazu
17:02:24 <melinda> rrsagent, create minutes
17:02:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/09/17-css-minutes.html melinda
17:02:30 <Ming> Ming has joined #css
17:02:33 <MoZ> fantasai, what is the link to the wiki page ?
17:02:39 <fantasai> haven't created it yet
17:02:40 <Ming> exit
17:02:41 <Ming> quit
17:02:46 <fantasai> I'll send a link to w3c-css-wg
17:03:32 <MoZ> fantasai: thx
17:11:19 <arronei> arronei has joined #CSS
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19:08:27 <fantasai> ACTION Daniel take http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Sep/0006.html to HTCG/chairs
19:08:28 <trackbot> Created ACTION-108 - Take http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2008Sep/0006.html to HTCG/chairs [on Daniel Glazman - due 2008-09-24].
21:06:53 <dbaron> fantasai, [1.2T-LC] was the email prefix suggested in SVGMobile12
21:09:48 <shepazu> should I reply to www-style as well as www-svg?
21:10:29 <shepazu> I'm concerned that our action and issue numbers might get mixed up in our respective Trackers, and also that it would generate a lot of cross-list posting...
21:10:46 <shepazu> but I also don't want people to get left out of the loop...
21:11:01 <shepazu> dbaron, fantasai, suggestions?
21:11:24 <shepazu> in general, I don't think it's a good idea to crosspost for LC questions
21:11:31 <dbaron> I don't either.
21:11:39 <dbaron> Not sure why everyone was saying that in the telecon.
21:12:05 <shepazu> ok, I'll reply only to www-svg and the original poster
21:12:45 <shepazu> and our tracker is publicly visible, so you can always track all comments
22:20:22 <fantasai> I think the main benefit is so that we can keep track of each others' CSS-related comments.
22:20:35 <fantasai> reply-to www-svg is fine imo
22:21:22 <shepazu> ok, I'll do that in the future, but I think you should be BCCing
22:21:45 <shepazu> cuz I already screwed up and CCed www-style and i18n
22:22:07 <anne> CSS WG members can just read http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/latest ...
22:22:58 <fantasai> shepazu: makes sense to me
22:23:22 <shepazu> cool
22:24:54 <fantasai> anne: sorry, I don't care enough to read all www-svg traffic :) (No offense, shepazu.)
22:25:18 <shepazu> up yours, fantasai, SVG is hte most important thing in the world!!
22:25:33 <shepazu> I mean... uh, yeah, no offense taken
22:25:44 <anne> once you filter out shepazu there's not that much e-mail :)
22:25:54 <fantasai> lol
22:25:59 <shepazu> lol
22:26:23 <shepazu> especially now that jonathan chetwynd left all the w3c mailing lists
22:26:49 <anne> I noticed, that was a weird goodbye
22:27:09 <shepazu> actually, I don't like reading email via a browser, so I rarely check other lists that I'm not subscribed to
22:27:43 <shepazu> anne: I asked him to be more polite and productive in his comments, and he didn't think that was appropriate
22:27:48 <anne> I check other lists a few times each week, using shift+directional keys makes it easy
22:28:04 <anne> and I have some URL shortcuts in Opera too
22:28:23 <shepazu> but it's kind of a shame... chetwynd was great at identifying problems, even if he wasn't as good at coming up with solutions :(
22:28:26 <anne> e.g. mml w3c-css-wg
22:28:46 <shepazu> there are several changes in the spec I'd attribute directly to him
22:28:52 <fantasai> shepazu: did you tell him that?
22:28:58 <shepazu> fantasai: many times
22:29:46 <shepazu> actually, I think he's gotten involved in some project that is taking most of his time
22:30:17 <shepazu> so, the farewell was a bit over-the-top
22:37:12 <fantasai> http://wiki.csswg.org/spec/reviews/svgtiny1.2
22:39:07 <shepazu> awww
23:22:44 <anne> anne has joined #css