14:48:00 RRSAgent has joined #rif 14:48:00 logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/09/16-rif-irc 14:48:06 Zakim, this will be rif 14:48:06 ok, csma; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 12 minutes 14:48:28 Meeting RIF telecon 16 September 2008 14:48:44 Chair: Christian de Sainte Marie 14:49:18 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Sep/0109.html 14:49:54 csma has changed the topic to: RIF Telecon September 16; Agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Sep/0109.html 14:50:40 Regrets: JosDeBruijn AxelPolleres AdrianPaschke StuartTaylor DaveReynolds 14:50:50 Zakim, reset agenda 14:50:50 I don't understand 'reset agenda', csma 14:50:56 Zakim, clear agenda 14:50:56 agenda cleared 14:51:03 agendum+ Admin 14:51:26 agendum+ Liaisons 14:51:44 agendum+ Publicity and public comments 14:52:03 agendum+ Actions review 14:52:16 agendum+ F2F11 14:52:22 agendum+ Core 14:52:31 Agendum+ Test Cases 14:52:52 Agendum+ AOB (pick scribe!) 14:57:16 ChrisW has joined #rif 14:57:34 zakim, list agenda 14:57:34 I see 8 items remaining on the agenda: 14:57:34 1. Admin [from csma] 14:57:36 2. Liaisons [from csma] 14:57:37 Harold has joined #rif 14:57:37 3. Publicity and public comments [from csma] 14:57:38 4. Actions review [from csma] 14:57:38 5. F2F11 [from csma] 14:57:40 6. Core [from csma] 14:57:42 7. Test Cases [from csma] 14:57:44 8. AOB (pick scribe!) [from csma] 15:00:12 MichaelKifer has joined #rif 15:00:46 SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started 15:00:55 + +6928aaaa 15:01:05 zakim, aaaa is me 15:01:05 +csma; got it 15:01:11 Hassan has joined #rif 15:01:17 +Sandro 15:01:27 +[NRCC] 15:01:33 +Hassan_Ait-Kaci 15:01:42 Stella has joined #rif 15:01:49 zakim, [NRCC] is me 15:01:50 +Harold; got it 15:01:54 Michael, do you remember that you scribe, today? 15:02:10 zakim, ibm is temporarily me 15:02:22 +[IBM] 15:02:24 zakim, ibm is temporarily me 15:02:28 +ChrisW; got it 15:02:46 sorry, ChrisW, I do not recognize a party named 'ibm' 15:03:24 Leora_Morgenstern has joined #rif 15:03:36 +[IBM] 15:03:40 +Michael_Kifer 15:03:47 zakim, mute me 15:04:06 zakim, unmute me 15:04:08 Michael_Kifer should now be muted 15:04:21 +Mike_Dean 15:04:25 Scribe: Michael Kifer 15:04:33 Michael_Kifer should no longer be muted 15:04:33 mdean has joined #rif 15:04:35 zakim, mute me 15:04:38 scribenick: Michael_Kifer 15:04:51 + +1.212.781.aabb 15:04:54 zakim, who is on the phone? 15:04:56 zakim, aabb is me 15:05:01 zakim, take up agendum 1 15:05:07 -[IBM] 15:05:13 Michael_Kifer should now be muted 15:05:28 On the phone I see csma, Sandro, Harold, Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), ChrisW, Michael_Kifer (muted), Mike_Dean, +1.212.781.aabb 15:05:31 +Leora_Morgenstern; got it 15:05:33 agendum 1. "Admin" taken up [from csma] 15:05:37 +[IBM] 15:05:41 zakim, ibm is temporarily me 15:05:46 PROPOSED: accept minutes of telecon Sept 9 15:05:58 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Sep/att-0094/rif-meeting-miutes-09-09-2008.html 15:06:00 +Stella; got it 15:06:30 RESOLVED: accept minutes of telecon Sept 9 15:06:54 next item 15:07:44 + +1.503.533.aacc 15:07:57 The OWL 2 RL profile was just a section in another doc. 15:08:17 GaryHallmark has joined #rif 15:08:36 http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Profiles 15:08:45 next item 15:09:18 http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Publicity 15:11:13 zakim, who is on the phone? 15:11:13 On the phone I see csma, Sandro, Harold, Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), ChrisW, Michael_Kifer (muted), Mike_Dean, Leora_Morgenstern, StellaMItchell, +1.503.533.aacc 15:11:25 zakim, aacc is probably GaryHallmark 15:11:25 +GaryHallmark?; got it 15:12:34 q? 15:13:04 http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Response_to_RG1 15:14:11 zakim, unmute me 15:14:11 Michael_Kifer should no longer be muted 15:14:44 http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Response_to_TK1 15:16:28 zakim, mute me 15:16:29 Michael_Kifer should now be muted 15:17:27 zakim, unmute me 15:17:27 Michael_Kifer should no longer be muted 15:18:05 action: chris to finish responses to public comments by sept 22 15:18:05 Created ACTION-575 - Finish responses to public comments by sept 22 [on Christopher Welty - due 2008-09-23]. 15:18:23 next item 15:18:50 zakim, mute me 15:18:50 Michael_Kifer should now be muted 15:19:54 continued 15:19:55 Adrian? 15:22:13 next item 15:23:06 http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/F2F11#Agenda 15:23:12 q+ 15:23:29 ack leora 15:25:54 next itm 15:25:59 next item 15:26:27 PROPOSED: Core will not have equality in the head 15:26:40 Discussion of the proposed resolution that Core will not have equality in the head 15:27:19 Addl info: Dave R removed his objections to restricting equality in the body 15:28:00 RESOLVED: No equality in the head 15:28:06 RESOLVED: Core will not have equality in the head 15:30:51 equality in the body will be discussed at the Core telecon next Monday, 11am. 15:32:08 http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/issues/76 15:32:08 PROPOSED: Core should keep unrestricted equality in rule bodies (cf. ISSUE-71). 15:32:15 http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/issues/71 15:32:15 PROPOSED: Core should keep unrestricted equality and external function 15:32:15 calls in rule bodies and keep external functions calls in rule heads. 15:32:53 Note: external functions are NOT allowed in the head in BLD 15:33:48 The above "PROPOSED" resolutions are examples of what is to come from the "Core" subgroup. 15:34:22 zakim, unmute me 15:34:22 Michael_Kifer should no longer be muted 15:34:41 next item 15:34:49 zakim, mute me 15:34:49 Michael_Kifer should now be muted 15:35:19 let's start with EntailEverything 15:35:33 http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/EntailEverything_1 15:35:55 no 15:36:34 q? 15:39:19 Leora: need test cases that illustrate hard issues in the language of BLD 15:39:31 1 through 6 15:39:47 http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/EntailEverything_2 15:40:25 Gary: the purpose the EntainEverything test cases is to test the basic features of BLD. 15:41:49 that is not in proper format 15:41:59 http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Frames 15:44:01 Regarding the Frames test case, the ? in the vars is in a wrong position 15:44:37 Adrian intended to update this once the PS syntax is finalized 15:45:03 Gary: the Frames example seems wrong conceptually. Customer should be an object or a variable (Sandro). 15:45:14 The choice of syntax must be justified and explained... 15:46:21 yes, I think we do 15:46:56 Csma: how complete should be the test suite? 15:47:36 Sandro: somebody should go through the spec and suggest the places that are suitable for the testsuite. 15:47:58 -Mike_Dean 15:48:11 But this is hard to do, since we don't have an automatic way to check these tests. 15:48:15 I agree with Sandro regarding syntax 15:48:39 Otherwise sematics of the syntax is a guess... 15:48:46 but then reviewers of the tests will have to learn multiple languages 15:49:05 s/sematics/semantics/ 15:50:10 yikes 15:50:48 q+ 15:51:12 ack hassan 15:51:16 Issue: how to express the test cases? The PS is a moving target 15:51:16 Created ISSUE-77 - How to express the test cases? The PS is a moving target ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/issues/77/edit . 15:51:53 q 15:51:56 q+ 15:52:03 ack leora 15:52:43 there is currently a PS documented in BLD, we can use that 15:52:57 and if it changes, update the test cases 15:53:17 +Mike_Dean 15:54:02 Sandro proposed that test cases would be labeled with timestamps that indicate the version of the PS. A number of people did not like that. 15:54:13 who needs to imagine, i've DONE it 15:56:45 why don't we use the PS for the human readable version, and XML for the runnable version, and a tool to translate between 15:57:09 that is, i hope, what hassan is proposing (and doing) 15:57:10 Stella, the problem is the multiple versions of P 15:57:16 of PS 15:57:19 but the PS is not in a form yet that can support that 15:57:34 there are not multiple versions yet 15:57:56 q? 15:59:55 q? 16:01:03 XML is not "normal form" but "normative" 16:01:28 I agree with ChrisW on XML generated by people! 16:02:26 people can even submit them in email in informal form for now 16:02:33 we will translate them into ps for them 16:02:57 good point, Stella. We've said it before, but I think people have forgotten. 16:03:39 submission does not have to be in xml. tool will create the xml, and the xml is the normative form that will be run 16:06:56 BTW - in that example it should be ?Name 16:07:02 not Name? 16:07:45 +1 chris about making ps serializable 16:07:50 Hasan: proposing to complete the PS to make it into a parsable syntax. Chris expressed support. 16:08:18 q+ to say the problem with using other rule languages (eg Prolog) is that there is not a standard mapping to RIF XML. I suggest mappings must be defined and accepted by WG for any test case. 16:08:22 Csma: wants to write everything in XML, against a parsable PS. 16:08:41 q+ 16:09:20 +1 to Sandro's point above. This is the whole point of RIF, after all. 16:09:24 q? 16:10:25 Sandro: Prolog is not good for writing test cases, as there is no standard mapping to RIF-XML. 16:10:33 q- 16:11:30 it's kind of ok, except the testers will have to get use to multiple presetation syntaxes to undertand the cases 16:12:14 q+ 16:12:26 ack leora 16:12:36 CSMA: correction: don't want to write everything in XML. I think that the point of the test cases is to *document* the cases. XML is a good way for doing this. 16:12:51 Leora: but we also need to tst the cases. 16:12:53 Sandro: let's say that each test case in the wiki exists in any language which has a well-defined mapping to RIF and for which code is installed by the test-case-managers, so that the downloadable version has the XML and that's what is run. 16:13:32 Sandro: This degenerates to the current situation if we assume Hassan's PS->RIF-XML is our only defined+implemented language. 16:13:53 ack sandro 16:13:53 sandro, you wanted to say the problem with using other rule languages (eg Prolog) is that there is not a standard mapping to RIF XML. I suggest mappings must be defined and 16:13:57 ... accepted by WG for any test case. 16:15:10 Sandro: this is not the case - I think Aberdeen folks have an implementation as well. Am I right? 16:15:27 Leora: disagree with Sandro's proposal that people should be able to write test cases in their own languages. 16:15:49 no, Michael, I disagree with Christian's proposal 16:16:10 Michael, I don't think Sandro and Christian are saying the smae thing at all! 16:16:17 s/smae/same/ 16:16:56 I think we can get farily broad (not deep) coverage 16:17:02 I can work on it 16:17:02 They are saying different things, but I thought that your argument was against Sandro's proposal (for the most part) 16:17:55 stella, I hope you will use RIF-PS and not prolog or ilog or mylog, or ... 16:17:55 and then we need the deeper coverage in the corner and difficult cases 16:18:17 Let me just write this rather than say this, because I think it will be clearer: 16:18:32 q? 16:18:33 The presentation syntax is built on the underlying BLD semantics. 16:18:54 This is not the case for the syntaxes of other languages, right? 16:20:12 q+ 16:20:35 Christian, I don't think you can entirely separate the issue of a comprehensive set of features from the issue of corner cases. 16:21:05 corner case = things that are hard for PRD :-) 16:21:50 I agree, Chris. It's when you look at things, feature by feature, that you may come up with corner cases. 16:22:07 If someone has their own syntax, OS, but give a mapping to RIF's XML, OS->RIF/XML, then OS can be seen as just their 'shorthand': only the XML produced by their mapping will be relevant for RIF syntactically and semantically. 16:22:35 ack leora 16:23:38 they all involve features, but it's a matter of focus 16:23:52 whether we only want hard or unobvious cases, or the general coverage also 16:23:52 Harold, assuming I'm not familiar with OS, I would not find this useful unless you can completely specify OS->RIF/XML in a way that is easy to understand (i.e. not just a black box service) 16:24:17 Leora: "corner cases" correspond to features. To distill them one needs to go feature-by-feature. 16:24:31 zakim, list agena 16:24:31 I don't understand 'list agena', ChrisW 16:24:34 zakim, list agenda 16:24:34 I see 2 items remaining on the agenda: 16:24:36 7. Test Cases [from csma] 16:24:36 8. AOB (pick scribe!) [from csma] 16:24:46 zakim, aren't we talking about test cases? 16:24:46 I don't understand your question, ChrisW. 16:24:53 zakim, i love you anyway 16:24:53 I don't understand 'i love you anyway', ChrisW 16:24:54 Sandro, right, I dont take any standpoint here. 16:25:13 zakim, take up item 7 40 minutes ago 16:25:13 '7\ 40\ minutes\ ago' does not match any agenda item, ChrisW 16:25:19 zakim, take up item 7 16:25:19 agendum 7. "Test Cases" taken up [from csma] 16:25:45 zakim, the presentation syntax 16:25:45 I don't understand 'the presentation syntax', ChrisW 16:25:59 nobody does, zakim 16:26:45 zakim, christian 16:26:45 I don't understand 'christian', ChrisW 16:27:07 agenda+ more fun with zakim 16:27:13 Leora: test cases should "cover enough" situations. It does not need to be exhaustive. 16:28:14 Gary: Stella's cases are real good. 16:29:06 zakim, who is on the phone? 16:29:06 On the phone I see csma, Sandro, Harold, Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), ChrisW, Michael_Kifer (muted), Leora_Morgenstern, StellaMItchell, GaryHallmark?, Mike_Dean 16:29:11 zakim, list attendees 16:29:11 As of this point the attendees have been +6928aaaa, csma, Sandro, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, Harold, ChrisW, Michael_Kifer, Mike_Dean, +1.212.781.aabb, Leora_Morgenstern, StellaMItchell, 16:29:15 ... +1.503.533.aacc, GaryHallmark? 16:29:18 rrsagent, make minutes 16:29:18 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/09/16-rif-minutes.html ChrisW 16:29:24 rrsagent, make logs public 16:29:52 Regrets: JosDeBruijn AxelPolleres AdrianPaschke StuartTaylor DaveReynolds 16:30:04 yes 16:30:18 Yuting, are you there? 16:30:19 zakim, aacc is me 16:30:19 sorry, GaryHallmark, I do not recognize a party named 'aacc' 16:30:25 YutingZhao? 16:30:45 don't worry about that Gary, its a bug 16:30:58 test case editors 16:31:06 should need to do it 16:32:02 no hand written xml! 16:33:04 action: map existing test cases onto the sections of the spec 16:33:04 Sorry, couldn't find user - map 16:33:06 and go over spec and see where we have holds 16:33:11 holes 16:33:12 action: leora to map existing test cases onto the sections of the spec 16:33:12 Created ACTION-576 - Map existing test cases onto the sections of the spec [on Leora Morgenstern - due 2008-09-23]. 16:33:32 +1 16:33:36 +1 16:33:44 rrsagent, make minutes 16:33:44 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/09/16-rif-minutes.html ChrisW 16:33:46 zakim, unmute me 16:33:46 Michael_Kifer should no longer be muted 16:33:49 -StellaMItchell 16:33:52 -Leora_Morgenstern 16:34:05 -Hassan_Ait-Kaci 16:34:07 -Harold 16:34:08 -GaryHallmark? 16:34:09 -Mike_Dean 16:35:43 -Michael_Kifer 16:35:47 zakim, who is on the phone? 16:35:47 On the phone I see csma, Sandro, ChrisW 16:46:52 -Sandro 16:46:53 -ChrisW 16:46:54 -csma 16:46:55 SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended 16:46:57 Attendees were +6928aaaa, csma, Sandro, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, Harold, ChrisW, Michael_Kifer, Mike_Dean, +1.212.781.aabb, Leora_Morgenstern, StellaMItchell, +1.503.533.aacc, 16:47:00 ... GaryHallmark? 16:47:00 csma has left #rif 17:07:49 csma has joined #rif 17:08:10 csma has left #rif