IRC log of rif on 2008-09-16

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:48:00 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rif
14:48:00 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/09/16-rif-irc
14:48:06 [csma]
Zakim, this will be rif
14:48:06 [Zakim]
ok, csma; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 12 minutes
14:48:28 [csma]
Meeting RIF telecon 16 September 2008
14:48:44 [csma]
Chair: Christian de Sainte Marie
14:49:18 [csma]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Sep/0109.html
14:49:54 [csma]
csma has changed the topic to: RIF Telecon September 16; Agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Sep/0109.html
14:50:40 [csma]
Regrets: JosDeBruijn AxelPolleres AdrianPaschke StuartTaylor DaveReynolds
14:50:50 [csma]
Zakim, reset agenda
14:50:50 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'reset agenda', csma
14:50:56 [csma]
Zakim, clear agenda
14:50:56 [Zakim]
agenda cleared
14:51:03 [csma]
agendum+ Admin
14:51:26 [csma]
agendum+ Liaisons
14:51:44 [csma]
agendum+ Publicity and public comments
14:52:03 [csma]
agendum+ Actions review
14:52:16 [csma]
agendum+ F2F11
14:52:22 [csma]
agendum+ Core
14:52:31 [csma]
Agendum+ Test Cases
14:52:52 [csma]
Agendum+ AOB (pick scribe!)
14:57:16 [ChrisW]
ChrisW has joined #rif
14:57:34 [ChrisW]
zakim, list agenda
14:57:34 [Zakim]
I see 8 items remaining on the agenda:
14:57:34 [Zakim]
1. Admin [from csma]
14:57:36 [Zakim]
2. Liaisons [from csma]
14:57:37 [Harold]
Harold has joined #rif
14:57:37 [Zakim]
3. Publicity and public comments [from csma]
14:57:38 [Zakim]
4. Actions review [from csma]
14:57:38 [Zakim]
5. F2F11 [from csma]
14:57:40 [Zakim]
6. Core [from csma]
14:57:42 [Zakim]
7. Test Cases [from csma]
14:57:44 [Zakim]
8. AOB (pick scribe!) [from csma]
15:00:12 [MichaelKifer]
MichaelKifer has joined #rif
15:00:46 [Zakim]
SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
15:00:55 [Zakim]
+ +6928aaaa
15:01:05 [csma]
zakim, aaaa is me
15:01:05 [Zakim]
+csma; got it
15:01:11 [Hassan]
Hassan has joined #rif
15:01:17 [Zakim]
+Sandro
15:01:27 [Zakim]
+[NRCC]
15:01:33 [Zakim]
+Hassan_Ait-Kaci
15:01:42 [Stella]
Stella has joined #rif
15:01:49 [Harold]
zakim, [NRCC] is me
15:01:50 [Zakim]
+Harold; got it
15:01:54 [csma]
Michael, do you remember that you scribe, today?
15:02:10 [ChrisW]
zakim, ibm is temporarily me
15:02:22 [Zakim]
+[IBM]
15:02:24 [ChrisW]
zakim, ibm is temporarily me
15:02:28 [Zakim]
+ChrisW; got it
15:02:46 [Zakim]
sorry, ChrisW, I do not recognize a party named 'ibm'
15:03:24 [Leora_Morgenstern]
Leora_Morgenstern has joined #rif
15:03:36 [Zakim]
+[IBM]
15:03:40 [Zakim]
+Michael_Kifer
15:03:47 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, mute me
15:04:06 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, unmute me
15:04:08 [Zakim]
Michael_Kifer should now be muted
15:04:21 [Zakim]
+Mike_Dean
15:04:25 [csma]
Scribe: Michael Kifer
15:04:33 [Zakim]
Michael_Kifer should no longer be muted
15:04:33 [mdean]
mdean has joined #rif
15:04:35 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, mute me
15:04:38 [csma]
scribenick: Michael_Kifer
15:04:51 [Zakim]
+ +1.212.781.aabb
15:04:54 [ChrisW]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:04:56 [Leora_Morgenstern]
zakim, aabb is me
15:05:01 [csma]
zakim, take up agendum 1
15:05:07 [Zakim]
-[IBM]
15:05:13 [Zakim]
Michael_Kifer should now be muted
15:05:28 [Zakim]
On the phone I see csma, Sandro, Harold, Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), ChrisW, Michael_Kifer (muted), Mike_Dean, +1.212.781.aabb
15:05:31 [Zakim]
+Leora_Morgenstern; got it
15:05:33 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Admin" taken up [from csma]
15:05:37 [Zakim]
+[IBM]
15:05:41 [Stella]
zakim, ibm is temporarily me
15:05:46 [csma]
PROPOSED: accept minutes of telecon Sept 9
15:05:58 [csma]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Sep/att-0094/rif-meeting-miutes-09-09-2008.html
15:06:00 [Zakim]
+Stella; got it
15:06:30 [csma]
RESOLVED: accept minutes of telecon Sept 9
15:06:54 [csma]
next item
15:07:44 [Zakim]
+ +1.503.533.aacc
15:07:57 [Harold]
The OWL 2 RL profile was just a section in another doc.
15:08:17 [GaryHallmark]
GaryHallmark has joined #rif
15:08:36 [Harold]
http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Profiles
15:08:45 [csma]
next item
15:09:18 [csma]
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Publicity
15:11:13 [ChrisW]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:11:13 [Zakim]
On the phone I see csma, Sandro, Harold, Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), ChrisW, Michael_Kifer (muted), Mike_Dean, Leora_Morgenstern, StellaMItchell, +1.503.533.aacc
15:11:25 [ChrisW]
zakim, aacc is probably GaryHallmark
15:11:25 [Zakim]
+GaryHallmark?; got it
15:12:34 [csma]
q?
15:13:04 [ChrisW]
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Response_to_RG1
15:14:11 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, unmute me
15:14:11 [Zakim]
Michael_Kifer should no longer be muted
15:14:44 [ChrisW]
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Response_to_TK1
15:16:28 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, mute me
15:16:29 [Zakim]
Michael_Kifer should now be muted
15:17:27 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, unmute me
15:17:27 [Zakim]
Michael_Kifer should no longer be muted
15:18:05 [ChrisW]
action: chris to finish responses to public comments by sept 22
15:18:05 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-575 - Finish responses to public comments by sept 22 [on Christopher Welty - due 2008-09-23].
15:18:23 [csma]
next item
15:18:50 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, mute me
15:18:50 [Zakim]
Michael_Kifer should now be muted
15:19:54 [Hassan]
continued
15:19:55 [ChrisW]
Adrian?
15:22:13 [csma]
next item
15:23:06 [csma]
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/F2F11#Agenda
15:23:12 [Leora_Morgenstern]
q+
15:23:29 [csma]
ack leora
15:25:54 [csma]
next itm
15:25:59 [csma]
next item
15:26:27 [csma]
PROPOSED: Core will not have equality in the head
15:26:40 [MichaelKifer]
Discussion of the proposed resolution that Core will not have equality in the head
15:27:19 [MichaelKifer]
Addl info: Dave R removed his objections to restricting equality in the body
15:28:00 [MichaelKifer]
RESOLVED: No equality in the head
15:28:06 [csma]
RESOLVED: Core will not have equality in the head
15:30:51 [MichaelKifer]
equality in the body will be discussed at the Core telecon next Monday, 11am.
15:32:08 [Harold]
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/issues/76
15:32:08 [Harold]
PROPOSED: Core should keep unrestricted equality in rule bodies (cf. ISSUE-71).
15:32:15 [Harold]
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/issues/71
15:32:15 [Harold]
PROPOSED: Core should keep unrestricted equality and external function
15:32:15 [Harold]
calls in rule bodies and keep external functions calls in rule heads.
15:32:53 [MichaelKifer]
Note: external functions are NOT allowed in the head in BLD
15:33:48 [MichaelKifer]
The above "PROPOSED" resolutions are examples of what is to come from the "Core" subgroup.
15:34:22 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, unmute me
15:34:22 [Zakim]
Michael_Kifer should no longer be muted
15:34:41 [csma]
next item
15:34:49 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, mute me
15:34:49 [Zakim]
Michael_Kifer should now be muted
15:35:19 [Stella]
let's start with EntailEverything
15:35:33 [Stella]
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/EntailEverything_1
15:35:55 [Stella]
no
15:36:34 [csma]
q?
15:39:19 [MichaelKifer]
Leora: need test cases that illustrate hard issues in the language of BLD
15:39:31 [Stella]
1 through 6
15:39:47 [Stella]
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/EntailEverything_2
15:40:25 [MichaelKifer]
Gary: the purpose the EntainEverything test cases is to test the basic features of BLD.
15:41:49 [Stella]
that is not in proper format
15:41:59 [Leora_Morgenstern]
http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Frames
15:44:01 [MichaelKifer]
Regarding the Frames test case, the ? in the vars is in a wrong position
15:44:37 [Stella]
Adrian intended to update this once the PS syntax is finalized
15:45:03 [MichaelKifer]
Gary: the Frames example seems wrong conceptually. Customer should be an object or a variable (Sandro).
15:45:14 [Hassan]
The choice of syntax must be justified and explained...
15:46:21 [Stella]
yes, I think we do
15:46:56 [MichaelKifer]
Csma: how complete should be the test suite?
15:47:36 [MichaelKifer]
Sandro: somebody should go through the spec and suggest the places that are suitable for the testsuite.
15:47:58 [Zakim]
-Mike_Dean
15:48:11 [MichaelKifer]
But this is hard to do, since we don't have an automatic way to check these tests.
15:48:15 [Hassan]
I agree with Sandro regarding syntax
15:48:39 [Hassan]
Otherwise sematics of the syntax is a guess...
15:48:46 [Stella]
but then reviewers of the tests will have to learn multiple languages
15:49:05 [Hassan]
s/sematics/semantics/
15:50:10 [Stella]
yikes
15:50:48 [Hassan]
q+
15:51:12 [csma]
ack hassan
15:51:16 [MichaelKifer]
Issue: how to express the test cases? The PS is a moving target
15:51:16 [trackbot]
Created ISSUE-77 - How to express the test cases? The PS is a moving target ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/track/issues/77/edit .
15:51:53 [Leora_Morgenstern]
q
15:51:56 [Leora_Morgenstern]
q+
15:52:03 [csma]
ack leora
15:52:43 [Stella]
there is currently a PS documented in BLD, we can use that
15:52:57 [Stella]
and if it changes, update the test cases
15:53:17 [Zakim]
+Mike_Dean
15:54:02 [MichaelKifer]
Sandro proposed that test cases would be labeled with timestamps that indicate the version of the PS. A number of people did not like that.
15:54:13 [ChrisW]
who needs to imagine, i've DONE it
15:56:45 [Stella]
why don't we use the PS for the human readable version, and XML for the runnable version, and a tool to translate between
15:57:09 [ChrisW]
that is, i hope, what hassan is proposing (and doing)
15:57:10 [Leora_Morgenstern]
Stella, the problem is the multiple versions of P
15:57:16 [Leora_Morgenstern]
of PS
15:57:19 [ChrisW]
but the PS is not in a form yet that can support that
15:57:34 [Stella]
there are not multiple versions yet
15:57:56 [sandro]
q?
15:59:55 [csma]
q?
16:01:03 [Hassan]
XML is not "normal form" but "normative"
16:01:28 [Hassan]
I agree with ChrisW on XML generated by people!
16:02:26 [Stella]
people can even submit them in email in informal form for now
16:02:33 [Stella]
we will translate them into ps for them
16:02:57 [Leora_Morgenstern]
good point, Stella. We've said it before, but I think people have forgotten.
16:03:39 [Stella]
submission does not have to be in xml. tool will create the xml, and the xml is the normative form that will be run
16:06:56 [Hassan]
BTW - in that example it should be ?Name
16:07:02 [Hassan]
not Name?
16:07:45 [Stella]
+1 chris about making ps serializable
16:07:50 [MichaelKifer]
Hasan: proposing to complete the PS to make it into a parsable syntax. Chris expressed support.
16:08:18 [sandro]
q+ to say the problem with using other rule languages (eg Prolog) is that there is not a standard mapping to RIF XML. I suggest mappings must be defined and accepted by WG for any test case.
16:08:22 [MichaelKifer]
Csma: wants to write everything in XML, against a parsable PS.
16:08:41 [Hassan]
q+
16:09:20 [Leora_Morgenstern]
+1 to Sandro's point above. This is the whole point of RIF, after all.
16:09:24 [csma]
q?
16:10:25 [MichaelKifer]
Sandro: Prolog is not good for writing test cases, as there is no standard mapping to RIF-XML.
16:10:33 [Hassan]
q-
16:11:30 [Stella]
it's kind of ok, except the testers will have to get use to multiple presetation syntaxes to undertand the cases
16:12:14 [Leora_Morgenstern]
q+
16:12:26 [csma]
ack leora
16:12:36 [MichaelKifer]
CSMA: correction: don't want to write everything in XML. I think that the point of the test cases is to *document* the cases. XML is a good way for doing this.
16:12:51 [MichaelKifer]
Leora: but we also need to tst the cases.
16:12:53 [sandro]
Sandro: let's say that each test case in the wiki exists in any language which has a well-defined mapping to RIF and for which code is installed by the test-case-managers, so that the downloadable version has the XML and that's what is run.
16:13:32 [sandro]
Sandro: This degenerates to the current situation if we assume Hassan's PS->RIF-XML is our only defined+implemented language.
16:13:53 [csma]
ack sandro
16:13:53 [Zakim]
sandro, you wanted to say the problem with using other rule languages (eg Prolog) is that there is not a standard mapping to RIF XML. I suggest mappings must be defined and
16:13:57 [Zakim]
... accepted by WG for any test case.
16:15:10 [Hassan]
Sandro: this is not the case - I think Aberdeen folks have an implementation as well. Am I right?
16:15:27 [MichaelKifer]
Leora: disagree with Sandro's proposal that people should be able to write test cases in their own languages.
16:15:49 [Leora_Morgenstern]
no, Michael, I disagree with Christian's proposal
16:16:10 [Leora_Morgenstern]
Michael, I don't think Sandro and Christian are saying the smae thing at all!
16:16:17 [Leora_Morgenstern]
s/smae/same/
16:16:56 [Stella]
I think we can get farily broad (not deep) coverage
16:17:02 [Stella]
I can work on it
16:17:02 [MichaelKifer]
They are saying different things, but I thought that your argument was against Sandro's proposal (for the most part)
16:17:55 [GaryHallmark]
stella, I hope you will use RIF-PS and not prolog or ilog or mylog, or ...
16:17:55 [Stella]
and then we need the deeper coverage in the corner and difficult cases
16:18:17 [Leora_Morgenstern]
Let me just write this rather than say this, because I think it will be clearer:
16:18:32 [csma]
q?
16:18:33 [Leora_Morgenstern]
The presentation syntax is built on the underlying BLD semantics.
16:18:54 [Leora_Morgenstern]
This is not the case for the syntaxes of other languages, right?
16:20:12 [Leora_Morgenstern]
q+
16:20:35 [Leora_Morgenstern]
Christian, I don't think you can entirely separate the issue of a comprehensive set of features from the issue of corner cases.
16:21:05 [GaryHallmark]
corner case = things that are hard for PRD :-)
16:21:50 [Leora_Morgenstern]
I agree, Chris. It's when you look at things, feature by feature, that you may come up with corner cases.
16:22:07 [Harold]
If someone has their own syntax, OS, but give a mapping to RIF's XML, OS->RIF/XML, then OS can be seen as just their 'shorthand': only the XML produced by their mapping will be relevant for RIF syntactically and semantically.
16:22:35 [csma]
ack leora
16:23:38 [Stella]
they all involve features, but it's a matter of focus
16:23:52 [Stella]
whether we only want hard or unobvious cases, or the general coverage also
16:23:52 [GaryHallmark]
Harold, assuming I'm not familiar with OS, I would not find this useful unless you can completely specify OS->RIF/XML in a way that is easy to understand (i.e. not just a black box service)
16:24:17 [MichaelKifer]
Leora: "corner cases" correspond to features. To distill them one needs to go feature-by-feature.
16:24:31 [ChrisW]
zakim, list agena
16:24:31 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'list agena', ChrisW
16:24:34 [ChrisW]
zakim, list agenda
16:24:34 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda:
16:24:36 [Zakim]
7. Test Cases [from csma]
16:24:36 [Zakim]
8. AOB (pick scribe!) [from csma]
16:24:46 [ChrisW]
zakim, aren't we talking about test cases?
16:24:46 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, ChrisW.
16:24:53 [ChrisW]
zakim, i love you anyway
16:24:53 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'i love you anyway', ChrisW
16:24:54 [Harold]
Sandro, right, I dont take any standpoint here.
16:25:13 [ChrisW]
zakim, take up item 7 40 minutes ago
16:25:13 [Zakim]
'7\ 40\ minutes\ ago' does not match any agenda item, ChrisW
16:25:19 [ChrisW]
zakim, take up item 7
16:25:19 [Zakim]
agendum 7. "Test Cases" taken up [from csma]
16:25:45 [ChrisW]
zakim, the presentation syntax
16:25:45 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'the presentation syntax', ChrisW
16:25:59 [csma]
nobody does, zakim
16:26:45 [ChrisW]
zakim, christian
16:26:45 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'christian', ChrisW
16:27:07 [ChrisW]
agenda+ more fun with zakim
16:27:13 [MichaelKifer]
Leora: test cases should "cover enough" situations. It does not need to be exhaustive.
16:28:14 [MichaelKifer]
Gary: Stella's cases are real good.
16:29:06 [ChrisW]
zakim, who is on the phone?
16:29:06 [Zakim]
On the phone I see csma, Sandro, Harold, Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), ChrisW, Michael_Kifer (muted), Leora_Morgenstern, StellaMItchell, GaryHallmark?, Mike_Dean
16:29:11 [ChrisW]
zakim, list attendees
16:29:11 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been +6928aaaa, csma, Sandro, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, Harold, ChrisW, Michael_Kifer, Mike_Dean, +1.212.781.aabb, Leora_Morgenstern, StellaMItchell,
16:29:15 [Zakim]
... +1.503.533.aacc, GaryHallmark?
16:29:18 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:29:18 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/09/16-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
16:29:24 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make logs public
16:29:52 [ChrisW]
Regrets: JosDeBruijn AxelPolleres AdrianPaschke StuartTaylor DaveReynolds
16:30:04 [Stella]
yes
16:30:18 [ChrisW]
Yuting, are you there?
16:30:19 [GaryHallmark]
zakim, aacc is me
16:30:19 [Zakim]
sorry, GaryHallmark, I do not recognize a party named 'aacc'
16:30:25 [ChrisW]
YutingZhao?
16:30:45 [ChrisW]
don't worry about that Gary, its a bug
16:30:58 [Stella]
test case editors
16:31:06 [Stella]
should need to do it
16:32:02 [GaryHallmark]
no hand written xml!
16:33:04 [ChrisW]
action: map existing test cases onto the sections of the spec
16:33:04 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - map
16:33:06 [Stella]
and go over spec and see where we have holds
16:33:11 [Stella]
holes
16:33:12 [ChrisW]
action: leora to map existing test cases onto the sections of the spec
16:33:12 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-576 - Map existing test cases onto the sections of the spec [on Leora Morgenstern - due 2008-09-23].
16:33:32 [ChrisW]
+1
16:33:36 [Hassan]
+1
16:33:44 [ChrisW]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:33:44 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/09/16-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
16:33:46 [MichaelKifer]
zakim, unmute me
16:33:46 [Zakim]
Michael_Kifer should no longer be muted
16:33:49 [Zakim]
-StellaMItchell
16:33:52 [Zakim]
-Leora_Morgenstern
16:34:05 [Zakim]
-Hassan_Ait-Kaci
16:34:07 [Zakim]
-Harold
16:34:08 [Zakim]
-GaryHallmark?
16:34:09 [Zakim]
-Mike_Dean
16:35:43 [Zakim]
-Michael_Kifer
16:35:47 [ChrisW]
zakim, who is on the phone?
16:35:47 [Zakim]
On the phone I see csma, Sandro, ChrisW
16:46:52 [Zakim]
-Sandro
16:46:53 [Zakim]
-ChrisW
16:46:54 [Zakim]
-csma
16:46:55 [Zakim]
SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
16:46:57 [Zakim]
Attendees were +6928aaaa, csma, Sandro, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, Harold, ChrisW, Michael_Kifer, Mike_Dean, +1.212.781.aabb, Leora_Morgenstern, StellaMItchell, +1.503.533.aacc,
16:47:00 [Zakim]
... GaryHallmark?
16:47:00 [csma]
csma has left #rif
17:07:49 [csma]
csma has joined #rif
17:08:10 [csma]
csma has left #rif