16:45:52 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #tagmem
16:45:52 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-tagmem-irc
16:46:03 <skw> zakim, this will be tag
16:46:03 <Zakim> ok, skw; I see TAG_Weekly()1:00PM scheduled to start in 14 minutes
16:48:04 <jar> topic: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/09/11-agenda
16:48:43 <DanC> topic is an IRC protocol thingy. so it's: /topic blah blah...
16:48:58 <jar> jar has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/09/11-agenda
16:49:02 <skw> skw has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/09/11-agenda
16:49:44 <skw> Meeting: TAG Weekly Telcon
16:49:53 <skw> Chair: Stuart Williams
16:50:05 <skw> Scribe: Ashok Malhotra
16:50:26 <skw> Regrets: Noah, Norm
16:58:06 <skw> regrets +DaveO(partial)
16:58:45 <Zakim> TAG_Weekly()1:00PM has now started
16:58:51 <Zakim> +??P0
16:58:59 <skw> zakim, ?? is me
16:58:59 <Zakim> +skw; got it
16:59:17 <Zakim> +Jonathan_Rees
17:00:46 <Ashok> Ashok has joined #tagmem
17:01:12 <Zakim> +Raman
17:02:26 <raman> raman has joined #tagmem
17:02:49 <ht> zakim, please call ht-781
17:02:49 <Zakim> ok, ht; the call is being made
17:02:51 <Zakim> +Ht
17:03:48 <Zakim> +Ashok_Malhotra
17:04:45 <Ashok> scribenick: Ashok
17:06:34 <Ashok> Regrets:  Noah, Norm, partial regrets DaveO
17:06:48 <Ashok> No comments on agenda
17:07:20 <Ashok> Minutes from Sep 4 approved
17:08:06 <Zakim> +DanC.a
17:08:11 <Ashok> Next week call a risk.  Regets from Tim.  Stuart may not be able to make it
17:08:27 <Ashok> HT:  Use the time to read our documents
17:08:44 <Ashok> Cancel next week's meeting
17:08:54 <jar> +1 use the time to read
17:08:55 <Ashok> Next meeting f2f
17:10:05 <DanC> DanC has changed the topic to: q+
17:10:08 <Ashok> Raman:  If we are serious abt this, all TAG members shd read the HTML spec 
17:10:11 <DanC> q+
17:10:18 <DanC> DanC has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/09/11-agenda
17:10:28 <skw> ack danc
17:11:30 <Ashok> DanC:  Please create reading list and Agenda for f2f
17:11:42 <Ashok> Agenda Item 3:  Binary XML
17:11:44 <DanC> s/create/let's finish/
17:12:08 <ht> q+ to acknowledge my EXI actions
17:12:20 <skw> ack ht
17:12:21 <Zakim> ht, you wanted to acknowledge my EXI actions
17:12:52 <Ashok> HT:  I will read these on the 'plane and make a recommendation on what we shd do
17:14:05 <Ashok> DanC:  Last, we said tell us how you are better than gzip 
17:14:20 <Ashok> HT:  That's where we are
17:14:44 <Ashok> Item 4: URNs and Registries
17:14:47 <DanC> (though Dec sounds wierd... I thought our request was since Dec)
17:16:01 <Ashok> HT:  I'm working on anew document.  Shd have it ready middle on next week
17:16:16 <Ashok> s/anew/a new/
17:17:08 <DanC> close action-167
17:17:08 <trackbot> ACTION-167 S to start a thread on non-DNS authority resolution on www-tag closed
17:17:35 <Ashok> DanC:  What's happening with XRIs?
17:18:17 <Ashok> SKW:  Summarizes situation
17:18:49 <Ashok> We have not had a formal proposal saying would you be happy with ...
17:19:40 <DanC> q+ to check whether skw meant it when he said "prefix", since DNS names go least-significant-first
17:20:22 <Ashok> SKW:  We had a discussion on how the discussion was going  
17:22:45 <skw> ack danc
17:22:45 <Zakim> DanC, you wanted to check whether skw meant it when he said "prefix", since DNS names go least-significant-first
17:22:55 <ht> q+ to say there's one thing we will need to chase no matter what
17:23:56 <DanC> does either booth or bradly advocate an actual prefix?
17:24:04 <skw> ack ht
17:24:04 <Zakim> ht, you wanted to say there's one thing we will need to chase no matter what
17:24:25 <ht> Abstract Identifier document: http://wiki.oasis-open.org/xri/AbstractIdentifierArchitecture
17:26:04 <Ashok> SKW:  That's not the proposal
17:26:26 <jar> (Out of order) saying "http://xri.*/*" are XRIS is same as saying "http://*/ark:*" are ARKs ...
17:26:58 <ht> And I think there is _some_ room to argue that both of these are OK, if not ideal
17:27:16 <Ashok> Item 5:  Self-Describing Web
17:27:48 <Ashok> Noah has incorporated feedback from Norm and SKW:
17:28:13 <ht> q+ to ask a question
17:28:15 <DanC> q+ to think about whether RDFa is critical path: if we leave it aside, what's the audience/purpose?
17:28:18 <Ashok> SKW:  Norm and I would be supportive of publication
17:28:23 <skw> ack ht
17:28:23 <Zakim> ht, you wanted to ask a question
17:28:58 <Ashok> ht:  In a discussion with a student I realized ...
17:29:00 <ht> I believe the following: "FYN works iff every party to the story is a) publically accountable 
17:29:00 <ht> and b) aware of the dependency of the FYN story on their part of it.
17:29:02 <ht> "
17:29:43 <DanC> I think you can follow-your-nose into policies and such that aren't world-readable
17:29:49 <DanC> q+
17:30:16 <Ashok> DanC:  I would not say 'publically accounatable"
17:30:20 <skw> q?
17:30:38 <Ashok> HT:  The parties have to be publically accountable
17:31:07 <Ashok> SKW:  The draft does not say this 
17:31:26 <Ashok> HT:  I would like to discuss this
17:31:34 <Ashok> SKW:  Pl. send comment
17:31:51 <Ashok> DanC:  I disagree for 3 reasons
17:32:26 <DanC> (I ran out after 2)
17:32:53 <DanC> (1) need not be world-readable
17:33:04 <DanC> (2) the URI for text/plain isn't actually critical path
17:33:07 <DanC> ... currently
17:33:21 <DanC> (though it's nice that the text/plain full URI is in an RFC)
17:33:27 <Ashok> HT:  I will send mail on this
17:33:29 <DanC> ack danc
17:33:29 <Zakim> DanC, you wanted to think about whether RDFa is critical path: if we leave it aside, what's the audience/purpose? and to 
17:33:30 <skw> ack danc
17:34:03 <Ashok> DanC:  How can we finish without RDFa story?
17:34:58 <Ashok> DanC:  I'm not sure story holds up
17:35:28 <Ashok> SKW:  can we document missing link and encourage them to put it in place.
17:35:47 <skw> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/09/f2fkc-agenda
17:35:53 <Ashok> Item 6 on Agenda
17:36:52 <Ashok> SKW:  Talks abt the f2f agenda.  Thanks Raman for his help
17:37:14 <Ashok> DanC:  I would like to negotiate the reading list now
17:37:14 <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone?
17:37:14 <Zakim> On the phone I see skw, Jonathan_Rees, Raman, Ht, Ashok_Malhotra, DanC.a
17:38:28 <DanC> I hear from skw: urnsregs, binaryxml, html*,
17:38:32 <DanC>  digest of ?
17:38:39 <Ashok> SKW:  Shd read binary XML specs, HTML spec, collected digest of refernces from Raman's thread
17:38:42 <DanC>  self-describing web draft
17:38:55 <DanC>  passwords in the clear
17:38:58 <Ashok> Self-describing Web, Password in Clear, Versioning
17:39:01 <DanC>  versioning revision from david
17:39:45 <Zakim> +Dave_Orchard
17:39:58 <Ashok> Need two readers for Binary XML, HT is one.
17:41:04 <Ashok> URNs AneRegistries ... HT writing paper.  Due Tuesday.  Shd be read by f2f
17:41:54 <DanC> * tim's bit
17:41:56 <Ashok> HT:  We shd alll have read Tim's paper
17:42:07 <Ashok> a/alll/al/
17:42:22 <skw> also had an explicit request from David for Jar's formal treatment...
17:42:26 <ht> s/alll/all/
17:43:20 <DanC> "the document"... one document on versioning?
17:43:30 <DanC> DO nominates JAR's formalism
17:43:41 <Zakim> -Ht
17:44:03 <Zakim> +Ht
17:44:06 <Ashok> DaveO:  What is new is Jonathan's formalism.  Recommend people read this by f2f
17:44:28 <DanC> DO: key chapter is ch5
17:44:38 <Ashok> DaveO:  Please review Chapter 5.  That is new and is key
17:46:27 <DanC> HT nominates SVG and HTML thread from public-html... a dozen messages
17:46:58 <Ashok> HT:  Read SVG and HTML thread.  Read 10 msgs and get a feeling of the context
17:47:02 <DanC> TVR 2nds... long thread... read for motivations
17:47:43 <jar> q+ html5/w3c history?
17:47:54 <jar> q+ jar
17:48:00 <DanC> (looks like TVR's agenda input subsumes HT's suggestion to read a thread)
17:48:15 <noah> noah has joined #tagmem
17:49:14 <Ashok> TVR:  Read HTML spec with a view thru the structuring lens I proposed
17:49:38 <Zakim> +Noah_Mendelsohn
17:49:57 <Ashok> JR:  Is there a document that tells why W3C got involved in html5
17:50:55 <noah> Are you discussing reading list?
17:51:04 <jar> http://wiki.oasis-open.org/xri/AbstractIdentifierArchitecture
17:51:12 <jar> ?
17:51:37 <Ashok> DanC:  I can point to formal mataerial but that's not what you want
17:53:03 <DanC> on mime types... a section of the html spec
17:54:13 <DanC> pwinc fri
17:54:18 <noah> Friday's OK if short, I think.
17:54:28 <DanC> (thanks; I was just gonna ask for irc convirmation)
17:55:17 <Ashok> Noah:  Are we all supposed to read whole HTML spec?
17:56:46 <DanC> nm nominates thread on meeting goals
17:57:11 <Ashok> Noah:  Please read thread on Tag Soup
17:57:50 <Ashok> HT:  Norm is not coming to Kansas City
17:58:24 <skw> I think that the thread Noah referred to is based at: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2008Aug/0019.html
18:00:35 <Ashok> DanC:  I will send mail before EOD after editing agenda page
18:01:08 <Ashok> Possible topic GenricResources-53 
18:01:25 <Ashok> Content negotiation and Abstract Documents
18:01:42 <Ashok> Not on agenda currently.  You can looby me.
18:02:16 <Ashok> s/looby/lobby/
18:02:55 <Ashok> TVR:  Steve said he was pulling in my TPAC proposal
18:03:13 <Ashok> Item 8 -- AbberviatedURI-56
18:04:00 <Ashok> SKW:  Asks abt status of CURIE comments
18:04:18 <DanC> (anybody have a summary of the comment? the subject line was a generic "comments on X")
18:04:32 <Ashok> Noah:  That's for responder to say
18:05:08 <Ashok> SKW:  Summarizez comments
18:05:43 <Ashok> Editorial:  Qnames never inted as attribute values.  Some discussion on this
18:06:07 <DanC> (pls promote that "main substantive comment" to the subject line)
18:06:11 <Ashok> SKW:  Definition of XML Schema datatype
18:06:16 <ht> Please remember that we have already fed back on this point, see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2008JanMar/0014.html
18:06:23 <ht> q+ to point to our earlier comments
18:06:41 <DanC> queue=jar,ht
18:06:51 <skw> ?
18:07:48 <Ashok> AM:  Noah you had a comment on lack of clarity between CURIE and URI where there is ambiguity
18:09:27 <Ashok> Noah:  I sent this as a personal comment.  If no objection, I can add to my note
18:10:14 <skw> q?
18:10:31 <jar> the whole point of safecurie was so that they can be put in uri contexts
18:11:12 <skw> q?
18:11:13 <DanC> yes, now that I understand the comment, it seems to miss the point of safecuries
18:11:31 <noah> Well, it hijacks the use of [ in everyone's languages.
18:11:38 <Ashok> Raman:  I'm uncomfotable with this.  We need to allow new syntax in old contexts
18:11:45 <DanC> q+ daveo
18:11:58 <skw> ack jar
18:12:01 <noah> q+ to say implying safecuries can be used in existing languages where URIs are expected hijacks the use of [ in those languages.
18:12:34 <skw> ack ht
18:12:58 <Ashok> jar:  If there was no intention of extensing URI content there would be no CURIEs
18:13:00 <jar> RDFa already would violate a prohibition on safecuries. It's too late to prohibit safecuries
18:13:27 <jar> s/no CURIEs/no SafeCURIEs/
18:13:41 <Ashok> HT:  We shd be careful abt distinguishing between CURIE's and SafeCURIES
18:13:41 <DanC> <ht> Please remember that we have already fed back on this point, see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html-editor/2008JanMar/0014.html
18:13:59 <noah> q?
18:14:35 <Ashok> HT:  We shd not go back on that advice
18:15:48 <Ashok> TVR:  The way Noah phrased it it sets a very high bar for new syntax
18:15:56 <jar> Two questions here! (1) CURIEs in URI contexts?  (No.)  (2) SafeCURIEs in URI contexts? (RDFa requires.)
18:16:11 <Zakim> -Dave_Orchard
18:16:30 <Zakim> -Ht
18:16:39 <skw> ack noah
18:16:39 <Zakim> noah, you wanted to say implying safecuries can be used in existing languages where URIs are expected hijacks the use of [ in those languages.
18:16:46 <Zakim> +Dave_Orchard
18:18:13 <Ashok> Noah:  Explains his POV ... I shd open my spec to other syntax
18:18:28 <jar> relative URIs can start with [, yes?
18:18:35 <timbl> timbl has joined #tagmem
18:18:42 <Ashok> They shd make clear that these things are not URis
18:18:45 <skw> ack daveo
18:19:16 <Ashok> DaveO:  Supports Noah.  CURIEs cannot be wedged into existing specifiactions
18:19:18 <jar> I repeat: There are two questions here! (1) CURIEs in URI contexts? (No.) (2) SafeCURIEs in URI contexts? (RDFa requires.)
18:19:46 <Zakim> -Dave_Orchard
18:19:49 <DanC> jar, does RDFa use <a href="[safecuri]">? I see deployment problems there.
18:20:00 <skw> http://www.w3.org/mid/48B810F4.60807@aptest.com
18:20:05 <Ashok> DaveO:  Must specify how CURIEs and URI are disambiguated
18:20:40 <jar> no, but it allows safecuries in other uri contexts, I believe.  will check.
18:21:19 <DanC> ok. deployment considerations for a/@href are somewhat special
18:21:49 <Ashok> TVR:  XSLT uses { } is attribute value templates.  Use of a special character
18:21:54 <jar> ok, URIorSafeCURIE only occurs in attributes that are newly added by RDFa
18:21:56 <noah> I did propose text to Shane on 8/29:
18:21:56 <noah> <proposed>
18:21:56 <noah> CURIEs and safe-CURIEs map to IRIs, but neither a CURIE nor a safe-CURIE 
18:21:56 <noah> <italic>is</italic> an IRI or URI.  Accordingly, CURIEs and safe-CURIEs 
18:21:56 <noah> MUST NOT be used as values for attributes that are specified to contain 
18:21:57 <noah> only URIs, IRIs, URI-references, IRI-references, etc.   Specifications for 
18:22:03 <noah> particular attribute values or other content MAY be written to allow 
18:22:03 <noah> either CURIEs or IRIs (or URIs, etc.).  The specifications for such 
18:22:03 <noah> languages MUST provide rules for disambiguition in situations where the 
18:22:05 <noah> same string could be interpreted as either a CURIE or an IRI.  One way to 
18:22:07 <noah> do this is to require that all CURIEs be expressed as safe-CURIEs, 
18:22:09 <noah> implying that all unbracketed strings are to be interpreted as IRIs.
18:22:11 <noah> </proposed>
18:24:14 <Ashok> TVR:  I'm mostly OK with this.  
18:25:02 <DanC> x:y
18:25:06 <Ashok> JAR:  I'm bothered by saying "CURIES are not IRIs".  There are bstrings that are both.
18:26:07 <DanC> noodling... "neither every CURIE nor every safe-CURIE  <italic>is</italic> an IRI or URI"
18:27:10 <Ashok> Noah:  I will put this in a note to the TAG list and people call comment
18:27:45 <Ashok> s/call/can/
18:28:36 <noah> So, Stuart, what's the next step on the response.  
18:28:44 <Ashok> SKW:  Let's conclude on email.
18:29:49 <noah> SKW: Noah to redraft considering Stuart's proposal on intent of qnames and add 8/29 draft text on using CURIEs where URIs expected
18:30:44 <Ashok> SHW:  Any progress on 171
18:30:50 <Ashok> Dan:  No.
18:30:54 <Zakim> -Raman
18:30:57 <Zakim> -Noah_Mendelsohn
18:31:03 <Ashok> zakim, make logs public
18:31:03 <Zakim> I don't understand 'make logs public', Ashok
18:31:06 <DanC> p.s. any hosting issues?
18:31:27 <Ashok> rrsagent, make logs public
18:31:41 <skw> zakim, whois here?
18:31:41 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, skw.
18:31:51 <skw> zakim, who is here?
18:31:51 <Zakim> On the phone I see skw, Jonathan_Rees, Ashok_Malhotra, DanC.a
18:31:52 <Zakim> On IRC I see timbl, noah, raman, Ashok, RRSAgent, Zakim, skw, ht, jar, trackbot, DanC
18:31:56 <Ashok> zakim, list participants
18:31:56 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been skw, Jonathan_Rees, Raman, Ht, Ashok_Malhotra, DanC.a, Dave_Orchard, Noah_Mendelsohn
18:32:18 <Ashok> rrsagent, pointer
18:32:18 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-tagmem-irc#T18-32-18
18:43:40 <raman> raman has left #tagmem
18:49:02 <Zakim> -skw
18:49:03 <Zakim> -Ashok_Malhotra
18:49:05 <Zakim> -Jonathan_Rees
18:49:17 <skw> skw has left #tagmem
18:54:06 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, DanC.a, in TAG_Weekly()1:00PM
18:54:08 <Zakim> TAG_Weekly()1:00PM has ended
18:54:09 <Zakim> Attendees were skw, Jonathan_Rees, Raman, Ht, Ashok_Malhotra, DanC.a, Dave_Orchard, Noah_Mendelsohn
19:54:35 <DanC> hmm... decisions decisions...
19:54:43 <DanC> collect all preparation materials in one place in the agenda...
19:54:54 <DanC> or tuck them under the relevant items?
19:55:00 <DanC> I lean toward tucking, so far
19:55:48 <DanC> hmm... how to do a crawl-and-zip...?
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