IRC log of html-wg on 2008-09-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

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10:58:03 [marcos]
Hi, I was wondering if someone could give me some advice. In the widget spec, we want to define and "auto update" mechanism for updating widget packages over the air....
11:01:13 [marcos]
the proposal looks like this <widget version="1.0 beta" id="htt://widgets.org/mywidget/"> <update uri="http://widgetupdates.com/mywidget/update.php?version=%version%"> </widget> Where, at runtime, %version% is replaced by the UA for the value of the version attribute.
11:01:56 [MikeSmith]
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11:01:57 [marcos]
The question I have is, would it be better to to define%version% as an entity reference?
11:02:11 [marcos]
i.e., &version; ?
11:02:23 [marcos]
does it matter?
11:05:29 [Philip]
Where the entity reference is not defined in the widget XML file itself, and comes from the environment outside the parser instead?
11:06:30 [marcos]
yeah
11:06:33 [Philip]
If so, that sounds like it'd be a bit of a pain for anyone using normal XML tools to process or generate those files
11:06:40 [marcos]
yeah, true
11:06:45 [marcos]
that would suck
11:07:13 [marcos]
I'll stick with %version%
11:07:19 [Philip]
Rather than %-substitution, you could use (a subset of) URI templates instead
11:07:34 [Philip]
i.e. basically just use {version} instead
11:07:42 [marcos]
ok, that could work too
11:07:52 [marcos]
is there anything written about that?
11:07:59 [Philip]
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gregorio-uritemplate-02
11:08:06 [Philip]
Oh
11:08:07 [Philip]
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gregorio-uritemplate-03
11:08:23 [marcos]
great, I'll check those out.
11:08:50 [Philip]
That might be a silly idea, but at least the syntax seems less likely to conflict with the usual existence of % in URIs
11:09:18 [hsivonen]
marcos: entity references are trouble
11:12:21 [MikeSmith]
fwiw, I agree with hsivonen .. named entity references are one of the ugliest legacies inherited from SGML.. wish we could kill them off entirely
11:13:00 [marcos]
hsivonen, yeah. I see that now...
11:13:19 [marcos]
MikeSmith, understood.
11:14:01 [Philip]
(but sandboxing saved the day)
11:14:19 [Philip]
(Uh, I think they might have meant to write file:// in that example)
11:14:25 [jmb]
Philip: have you a link to that?
11:14:41 [Philip]
jmb: http://crypto.stanford.edu/websec/chromium/
11:14:59 [jmb]
ta
11:17:01 [Philip]
(It seems they're ignoring the issue of the web security model (i.e. enforcing same-originality etc), and only trying to prevent web pages interfering with the user's own computer)
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13:40:14 [hsivonen]
what's the observing etiquette and schedule? is it poor form to request observer status on another WG on the same days the HTML WG meets (since that would mean either skipping some HTML stuff or not actually observing most of the time)?
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14:28:23 [DanC]
you're welcome to request observer status all over the place, hsivonen . TPAC scheduling is overconstrained, and creative compromises are expected
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14:29:50 [DanC]
it's quite common to request to observe several meetings at once
14:34:39 [hsivonen]
DanC: OK. thanks.
14:38:02 [smedero]
DanC: So I requested observer status through the survey form - but should I be following up with the chairs of the respective working groups directly?
14:39:11 [DanC]
the norm is that the ball is now in the chairs' court, smedero . You should follow up only if you think a special case is worth making
14:39:38 [DanC]
most chairs just send a bulk "sure, fine, come and observe" message to all requesters, I think
14:39:51 [DanC]
I suppose some don't get around to it at all
14:39:52 [smedero]
that's what I assumed... I just wanted to make sure I didn't drop the ball on that.
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16:00:16 [ChrisWilson]
ChrisWilson has changed the topic to: HTML WG telecon 11 Sept 16:00UTC http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/agenda | this channel is logged: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/
16:00:32 [Zakim]
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16:00:39 [ChrisWilson]
zakim, this is html
16:00:39 [Zakim]
ChrisWilson, I see HTML_WG()12:00PM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be html".
16:00:44 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make logs world-visible
16:00:49 [ChrisWilson]
Zakim, this will be html
16:00:49 [Zakim]
ok, ChrisWilson; I see HTML_WG()12:00PM scheduled to start now
16:00:50 [Zakim]
HTML_WG()12:00PM has now started
16:00:53 [ChrisWilson]
grr
16:00:57 [Zakim]
+ +1.425.646.aaaa
16:01:05 [smedero]
Zakim, aaaa is me
16:01:05 [Zakim]
+smedero; got it
16:01:11 [oedipus]
meeting: HTML WG Weekly Issue & Agenda Tracking Call
16:01:15 [Zakim]
+ +1.408.398.aabb
16:01:23 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
16:01:27 [oedipus]
scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
16:01:28 [ChrisWilson]
zakim, microsoft is me
16:01:28 [Zakim]
+ChrisWilson; got it
16:01:32 [oedipus]
scribeNick: oedipus
16:01:44 [Zakim]
+ +49.251.280.aacc
16:01:44 [hsivonen]
Zakim, passcode?
16:01:44 [Zakim]
the conference code is 4865 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), hsivonen
16:01:58 [Zakim]
+DanC
16:02:00 [Julian]
Zakim, +49.251.280.aacc is me
16:02:00 [Zakim]
+Julian; got it
16:02:04 [DanC]
regrets+ Mike_Smith
16:02:05 [oedipus]
chair: Chris_Wilson
16:02:07 [Zakim]
+ +1.218.349.aadd
16:02:21 [Zakim]
+Gregory_Rosmaita
16:02:33 [ChrisWilson]
zakim, agenda?
16:02:33 [Zakim]
I see nothing on the agenda
16:02:38 [Zakim]
+??P24
16:02:39 [ChrisWilson]
agenda + review tracker
16:02:49 [ChrisWilson]
agenda+ tech plenary discussion
16:02:50 [hsivonen]
Zakim, ??P24 is me
16:02:52 [Zakim]
+hsivonen; got it
16:03:04 [ChrisWilson]
agenda+ discuss accessibility of audio/video
16:03:46 [ChrisWilson]
in light of DSinger's only being here for the first 10 minutes or so, I'll suggest we start with a/v accessibility discussion
16:04:05 [ChrisWilson]
anything to add to the agenda?
16:04:59 [Laura]
tp://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Aug/thread.html#msg697
16:04:59 [Laura]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Sep/thread.html#msg15
16:05:05 [Laura]
I started a page in the Wiki for Multimedia Accessibilty <Audio> <Video>
16:05:05 [Laura]
http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/MultimediaAccessibilty
16:05:19 [DanC]
copy of use cases: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2008Sep/0020.html
16:05:39 [Laura]
Considerations:
16:05:40 [Laura]
Multimedia presentations (rich media) usually involve both motion and the spoken word. This can present accessibility barriers to those who suffer either visual or audio impairments.
16:05:46 [Laura]
The visual components of a multimedia presentation can't be directly accessed by visual impaired users. Likewise, users who are deaf or hard of hearing will not be able to directly access auditory information.
16:05:54 [Laura]
Some users may simply not have the equipment, software or connection speed necessary to access multimedia files.
16:05:54 [Laura]
Multi-media = multi-modal/multi-sensory so there are many permutations where one or more "modes" may not be available, so we need to try and address each mode as a separate entity as well as the default "combined" or multi-media asset. Separation of these is key.
16:06:02 [Laura]
Recommendation:
16:06:02 [Laura]
HTML 5 needs to supply support pieces that can be referenced from within <video> and <audio>. Ideally all the support pieces should be direct descendants (children) of the parent <video> or <audio>, but unique and separate. In a perfect world all would be supplied, but even when less than perfect a method to provide one or more support pieces should exist.
16:06:09 [Laura]
Example: http://admissions.stanford.edu and look at the source code: there are params for the video, the caption, JW FLV also supports descriptive audio, and even little extras like the watermark. HTML 5 should have a similar approach in native support of any media asset
16:06:17 [Laura]
Captions, transcripts, text descriptions, and audio descriptions are different from one another.
16:06:17 [Laura]
A clean, semantic, explicit association to transcripts, text descriptions, captions, audio descriptions and/or streams that could be toggled on or off by the end user would be very beneficial. These items will get lost if they are outside the parent element. We need a way for authors to link items together, within the element.
16:06:17 [Laura]
The embedded model ensures that the linkage is there, and if the author chooses to also provide an in-the-clear linkage to one or more of these support pieces than this is a win.
16:06:17 [Laura]
Some kind of mechanism is needed...attributes on <video> could do it. Likewise for attributes on <audio>.
16:07:06 [ChrisWilson]
zakim, who is on the phone?
16:07:07 [Zakim]
On the phone I see smedero, +1.408.398.aabb, ChrisWilson, Julian, DanC, +1.218.349.aadd, Gregory_Rosmaita, hsivonen
16:07:09 [gregory]
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16:07:38 [oedipus]
DanC: had trouble following thread - longdesc diversion; use cases help me a lot
16:08:02 [oedipus]
JG: tried to get conversation on higher level - not how to do, but ability to express captions
16:08:10 [oedipus]
JG: will look at use cases, as well
16:08:50 [oedipus]
JG: Lachlan's point about user being part of rendering surface -- sometimes yes, sometimes no~~~~~~; ~~~~ssed as
16:09:10 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
16:09:11 [oedipus]
JG: media queries: adaptability of content; competing approaches expressed on list
16:09:27 [oedipus]
zakim, Microsoft is Cynthia_Shelly
16:09:27 [Zakim]
+Cynthia_Shelly; got it
16:09:36 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:09:36 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus
16:09:57 [oedipus]
CW: need to do further reading on topic before discussing on call (audio & video thread)
16:10:09 [oedipus]
CW: tons of posts on topic
16:10:19 [oedipus]
CS: trying to discharge action items for PF
16:10:31 [Zakim]
- +1.408.398.aabb
16:10:57 [ChrisWilson]
any further discussion on this, or shall we move on?
16:10:59 [oedipus]
HS: prefer discussion more focused - went off topic with longdesc and such
16:11:14 [ChrisWilson]
zakim, agenda?
16:11:14 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:
16:11:15 [Zakim]
1. review tracker [from ChrisWilson]
16:11:16 [Zakim]
2. tech plenary discussion [from ChrisWilson]
16:11:16 [oedipus]
GJR: perhaps some wiki work is needed
16:11:17 [Zakim]
3. discuss accessibility of audio/video [from ChrisWilson]
16:11:24 [ChrisWilson]
zakim, close item 3
16:11:24 [Zakim]
agendum 3, discuss accessibility of audio/video, closed
16:11:25 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:11:26 [Zakim]
1. review tracker [from ChrisWilson]
16:11:28 [Lachy]
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16:11:41 [oedipus]
HS: media query proposal good idea, but syntax needs work -- idea of querying user's indicated capabilities
16:11:47 [Laura]
notes to Dan that I am having trouble hearing. Some static on my end of the call.
16:12:00 [oedipus]
CW: interesting idea - privacy implications?
16:12:21 [Lachy]
I'm here now, IRC only
16:12:27 [oedipus]
HS: privacy problem in any case if person doesn't want to reveal disability to access video stream with certain properties
16:12:42 [oedipus]
q+ to ask role of CC/PP
16:12:48 [oedipus]
ack me
16:12:48 [Zakim]
oedipus, you wanted to ask role of CC/PP
16:12:51 [ChrisWilson]
ack oedipus
16:13:04 [oedipus]
GJR: i am working on a CC/PP profile for assistive technologies
16:13:47 [oedipus]
GJR: one possible approach to ensuring that content negotiation done correctly
16:14:03 [oedipus]
GJR: will set up ESW wiki page for issue
16:14:17 [Zakim]
+??P5
16:14:28 [Lachy]
Zakim, I am ??P5
16:14:28 [Zakim]
+Lachy; got it
16:15:15 [Lachy]
ChrisWilson, no, I think i've said all I need to say on the mailing list
16:15:39 [hsivonen]
clarification on the privacy point: a user who selects a media stream meant for people with a given disability end up revealing that (s)he may have that disability
16:16:04 [Lachy]
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16:16:07 [oedipus]
CS: privacy issues about AT concerns?
16:16:07 [ChrisWilson]
@Lachy ok thanks.
16:16:20 [Laura]
Zakim, I am ??P5
16:16:20 [Zakim]
sorry, Laura, I do not see a party named '??P5'
16:16:26 [hsivonen]
but with MQ being able to query stuff all the time, the disability may be revealed without the user noticing that a selection mechanism ran
16:16:30 [Laura]
Zakim, I am aadd
16:16:30 [Zakim]
+Laura; got it
16:16:34 [oedipus]
GJR: whatever is going to raise privacy concerns -- interested CC/PP as well as XQuery
16:16:46 [oedipus]
s/interested/interested in
16:16:52 [oedipus]
CS: use of CSS
16:16:54 [hsivonen]
q+ to ask about CC/PP & XQuery
16:17:30 [ChrisWilson]
ack hsivonen
16:17:30 [Zakim]
hsivonen, you wanted to ask about CC/PP & XQuery
16:17:36 [oedipus]
GJR: gathering participants to revive CSS-Reader
16:18:07 [DanC]
(hmm... "need" is a strong word)
16:18:11 [oedipus]
HS: CSS media selectors sufficient?
16:19:04 [DanC]
"exposing an accessible _what_"?
16:19:15 [hsivonen]
DanC, tree
16:19:21 [DanC]
thanks
16:19:51 [DanC]
HS: isn't the trend away from the AT accessing the DOM directly to the UA exposing an accessible tree?
16:19:58 [Laura]
regrets+ SteveF
16:20:07 [Laura]
regrets+ Joshue
16:20:47 [DanC]
GR: ATs need to support XML vocabularies/applications
16:20:53 [DanC]
HS: seems sufficient to convert to HTML server-side
16:20:55 [oedipus]
GJR: HS' idea is a non-starter -- if people need to use an xml-derived language, they should be able to do so without having forced on them as text/html which is lest robust
16:21:11 [oedipus]
s/lest/less
16:21:43 [shepazu]
Zakim, call shepazu
16:21:43 [Zakim]
ok, shepazu; the call is being made
16:21:44 [Zakim]
+Shepazu
16:22:11 [aroben]
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16:22:34 [oedipus]
HS: underlying assumption of HTML5 work is HTML5 is common ground - arbitrary XML vocab mapped to semantics AT understands introducing new layer of interaction - new middleware between AT and markup - why not make that ground HTML
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16:23:21 [oedipus]
GJR: HTML5 does not exist as a specification - one class of readers to disclaimers might change are AT vendors -- they are going to wait until there is sufficient market penetration
16:23:31 [DanC]
(the "just use HTML as the AT solution for specialized vocabularies" sounds familiar... that was the outcome in the HTML 2 timeframe for SGML accessiblity.)
16:23:40 [oedipus]
GJR: one reason why at vendors putting eggs in ARIA basket
16:23:47 [hsivonen]
ARIA is in flux as well
16:24:09 [oedipus]
CW: adding features to HTML5 via ARIA aren't distant future-sollutions, but will be added over time
16:24:37 [oedipus]
GJR: incremental adaptation without standards and coordination will not happen from AT side
16:24:42 [tH]
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16:25:00 [oedipus]
CW: why for features added to HTML5 but not ARIA features added to current HTML implementations
16:25:21 [hsivonen]
XQuery for AT capabilities doesn't exist as a REC today, either, right?
16:25:30 [oedipus]
CW: agree that need standards and coordination here - have to have that on AT side, as well -- not sure why precludes one sollution or another
16:26:15 [oedipus]
GJR: i don't think it precludes one solution or another, but i don't think we should proscribe one solution over another
16:27:14 [oedipus]
DS: point of ARIA not to supersede native semantics of ML language; ATs will adapt to HTML5 and ARIA, but ARIA goes beyond the scope of HTML WG
16:27:38 [oedipus]
CS: browser devs will do same things doing now - mapping HTML semantics to appropriate accessibility API so ARIA can be used anywhere
16:27:59 [oedipus]
DS: not certain why conflict at all between HTML5 and ARIA?
16:28:05 [oedipus]
CS: synchronization
16:29:39 [oedipus]
DS: widgets will only be deployed on IE8x - not on IE5 or IE6 which are not going away soon -- sites will continue to use javascript libraries to backport content; rather than get IE6 out of the hands of users, we don't care what version of browser or what browser you are using, but here is our syntax; with script libraries, AT will understand things at level that HTML5 browser does
16:29:43 [oedipus]
CS: if supports ARIA
16:29:55 [oedipus]
CS: some vendors will do for older browsers
16:30:03 [hsivonen]
q+
16:30:12 [oedipus]
DS: only if AT supports it -- values and attributes into the DOM what UA should do
16:30:23 [oedipus]
CS: also important for UA to map to OS
16:30:30 [oedipus]
DS: if UA can do that, we are ok
16:30:40 [oedipus]
GJR: point simply was that ARIA for more than HTML5
16:30:57 [oedipus]
GJR: therefore needs to be janus-like
16:31:05 [oedipus]
ack h
16:31:05 [DanC]
ack next
16:31:18 [ChrisWilson]
q?
16:31:34 [Lachy]
xquery is overkill, something like media queries would be syntactically better, but media queries itself is not suitable
16:31:35 [oedipus]
HS: in end, need to have something AT understands -- AT understands stuff in DOM or uses API that AT understands
16:31:58 [oedipus]
HS: arbitrary XML vocabularies are not accessible - mapping to ARIA or HTML5 if UA knows about ARIA or HTML5
16:32:07 [DanC]
(hmm... since the HTML 2 timeframe, I wonder what ebooks do... do they use HTML vocabulary for accessibility, I wonder?)
16:32:16 [oedipus]
GJR: the solution is going to be middle-ware --
16:32:29 [oedipus]
CW: mapping components from known to more simplistic
16:32:56 [oedipus]
DS: HTML is going to be more sparse language than GUI frameworks natively supported on desktops;
16:33:31 [oedipus]
DS: ARIA goes beyond what HTML5 does or plans to do -- why map to something that is known to be less rich when have option to map to something more rich just for the sake of a vocabulary (in this case HTML5)
16:34:00 [oedipus]
HS: HTML5 and ARIA being implemented so UA understands DOM and communicates to AT; just pointing out that arbitrary XML vocabularies
16:34:30 [DanC]
(the first ebook standard I find uses XHTML + namespaces. <html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xmlns:ops=" http://www.idpf.org/2007/ops"> http://www.openebook.org/2007/ops/OPS_2.0_final_spec.html )
16:34:49 [oedipus]
GJR: available now is ARIA; what is being developed are expert handlers that build upon the ARIA model to provide meaningful read/write access to XML dialects in specialized knowledge domain
16:36:04 [oedipus]
DS: CWilson right -- drifting away; don't need to introduce arbitrary XML into conversation; use of script, plus CSS plus markup to make
16:36:08 [oedipus]
widgets
16:36:19 [oedipus]
GJR: ARIA not for HTML5 per se, broader
16:36:32 [oedipus]
DS: violent agreement
16:36:39 [ChrisWilson]
zakim, agenda?
16:36:39 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda:
16:36:40 [Zakim]
1. review tracker [from ChrisWilson]
16:36:41 [Zakim]
2. tech plenary discussion [from ChrisWilson]
16:36:48 [ChrisWilson]
zakim, take up item 1
16:36:48 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "review tracker" taken up [from ChrisWilson]
16:36:58 [ChrisWilson]
overdue action items
16:37:00 [oedipus]
TOPIC: Tracker Review, part 1 (Overdue Action Items)
16:37:05 [ChrisWilson]
action-34?
16:37:05 [trackbot]
ACTION-34 -- Lachlan Hunt to prepare "Web Developer's Guide to HTML5" for publication in some way, as discussed on 2007-11-28 phone conference -- due 2008-09-04 -- OPEN
16:37:05 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/34
16:37:10 [Lachy]
q+
16:37:15 [oedipus]
CW: action 34 - pretty old action on lachy
16:37:15 [ChrisWilson]
ack Lachy
16:37:52 [oedipus]
LH: have to put off again; been extremely busy
16:38:02 [oedipus]
DC: approximate date?
16:38:08 [oedipus]
LH: no set date just yet
16:38:16 [oedipus]
CW: postpone discussion for TPAC?
16:38:20 [oedipus]
LH: would be better
16:38:55 [oedipus]
ACTION: ChrisW - put "web developer's guide to html5" publication on agenda for TPAC face2face meetings
16:38:55 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - ChrisW
16:39:00 [ChrisWilson]
reset due date, will discuss moving forward at TPAC
16:39:28 [DanC]
don't make a new action, pls
16:39:29 [oedipus]
CW: 21 october due date - face2face is 23rd and 24th
16:39:41 [ChrisWilson]
action-66?
16:39:41 [trackbot]
ACTION-66 -- Joshue O Connor to joshue to collate information on what spec status is with respect to table@summary, research background on rationale for retaining table@summary as a valid attribute -- due 2008-08-29 -- OPEN
16:39:41 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/66
16:39:57 [ChrisWilson]
action-74?
16:39:57 [trackbot]
ACTION-74 -- Michael(tm) Smith to raise on the list for discussion the issue of XSLT output=html (non)compliance in HTML5 -- due 2008-08-28 -- OPEN
16:39:57 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/74
16:40:10 [oedipus]
rrsagent, drop action 1
16:40:19 [DanC]
yes
16:40:28 [cynthia]
cynthia has joined #html-wg
16:40:31 [DanC]
(RRSAgent's action list is less relevant than trackers)
16:40:36 [oedipus]
CW: status list from last week?
16:40:41 [oedipus]
DC: raised for discussion
16:41:00 [smedero]
issue-54 has been discussed over the last week
16:41:00 [oedipus]
CW: can close it
16:41:04 [DanC]
close action-74
16:41:04 [trackbot]
ACTION-74 Raise on the list for discussion the issue of XSLT output=html (non)compliance in HTML5 closed
16:41:05 [Julian]
pointer?
16:41:17 [ChrisWilson]
action-75?
16:41:17 [trackbot]
ACTION-75 -- Michael(tm) Smith to raise question to group about Yes, leave @profile out, No, re-add it -- and cite Hixie's summary of the discussion -- due 2008-08-28 -- OPEN
16:41:17 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/75
16:41:37 [ChrisWilson]
julian, were you asking for ptr to email to group on XSLT issue?
16:41:49 [Julian]
yes
16:42:05 [oedipus]
CW: action 75 - not done by MikeSmith - want to do a poll on that -- leave open for now
16:42:11 [Laura]
What is the next step for @headers Action 72?
16:42:13 [ChrisWilson]
Will look in a minute.
16:42:14 [DanC]
re action-74, there are lots of msgs, e.g. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Sep/0137.html
16:42:28 [smedero]
julian, I groked that from the tracker agenda but you can view the issue itself to see there has been discussion: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/54
16:42:30 [Julian]
likely http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Sep/0137.html
16:42:32 [ChrisWilson]
agenda+ discuss action-72
16:42:38 [oedipus]
CW: action 74 - XSLT output=html
16:42:38 [myakura]
myakura has joined #html-wg
16:42:56 [ChrisWilson]
action-29?
16:42:56 [trackbot]
ACTION-29 -- Dan Connolly to follow up on the idea of a free-software-compatible license for a note on HTML authoring -- due 2008-09-11 -- OPEN
16:42:56 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/29
16:42:59 [oedipus]
CW: action 75 still open; action 29 status
16:43:07 [oedipus]
CW: Dan?
16:43:26 [oedipus]
DanC: some promising internal discussion, but don't know specifics yet - hoping to report today
16:43:36 [oedipus]
GJR: discussed at HTC?
16:43:41 [oedipus]
DanC: don't expect so
16:43:43 [DanC]
(life is getting a little too meta when there's a question about what's the next step on an action; an action is supposed to _be_ a next step)
16:43:55 [oedipus]
CW: move to?
16:44:04 [oedipus]
DanC: give same due date as lachy
16:44:06 [oedipus]
CW: done
16:44:18 [ChrisWilson]
zakim, close item
16:44:18 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'close item', ChrisWilson
16:44:20 [oedipus]
CW: covers all of the overdue issues, i believe
16:44:24 [ChrisWilson]
agenda?
16:44:28 [ChrisWilson]
zakim, close item 1
16:44:30 [Zakim]
agendum 1, review tracker, closed
16:44:31 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:44:32 [Zakim]
2. tech plenary discussion [from ChrisWilson]
16:44:37 [ChrisWilson]
zakim, take up item 2
16:44:37 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "tech plenary discussion" taken up [from ChrisWilson]
16:44:45 [Zakim]
-Lachy
16:44:52 [ChrisWilson]
zakim, take up item 3
16:44:52 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "discuss accessibility of audio/video" taken up [from ChrisWilson]
16:44:59 [ChrisWilson]
zakim, close item 3
16:44:59 [Zakim]
agendum 3, discuss accessibility of audio/video, closed
16:45:00 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
16:45:02 [ChrisWilson]
agenda?
16:45:02 [Zakim]
2. tech plenary discussion [from ChrisWilson]
16:45:10 [Zakim]
+??P1
16:45:12 [ChrisWilson]
zakim, take up item 4
16:45:12 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "discuss action-72" taken up [from ChrisWilson]
16:45:15 [DanC]
(ah... re my licensing action, there's an internal thingy due 2008-10-08 ; so I'll set my due date near that...)
16:45:15 [oedipus]
CW: Laura asked about action 72
16:45:15 [Lachy]
Zakim, I am ??P1
16:45:15 [Zakim]
+Lachy; got it
16:45:40 [oedipus]
CW: Lachy, set deadline for TPAC for web dev doc
16:45:55 [Laura]
Approx a thousand headers messages to date on list on action 72:
16:45:56 [Laura]
http://w3.markmail.org/search/?q=headers+list%3Aorg.w3.public-html+date%3A20070501-20080912
16:46:12 [Laura]
@headers has been an issue since May 1, 2007 with about 39 threads.
16:46:12 [Laura]
http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/IssueTableHeaders#head-bac4baeb0cd0ea09b7f76ff9c409740257566408
16:46:20 [Laura]
Latest @headers discussion thread, September 2008:
16:46:21 [Laura]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Sep/thread.html#msg114
16:46:27 [oedipus]
CW: next steps on action 72 - action on CW about headers and header functionality; still need to shift through all info; either declare consensus or post a poll; collect issues into 1 email to send to list -- hope to get to it very soon
16:46:45 [ChrisWilson]
@Laura - yes, I need to collate and distill, then ask a question to the group. Still assigned to me.
16:46:51 [Laura]
Thank you.
16:46:56 [ChrisWilson]
zakim, close item 4
16:46:56 [Zakim]
agendum 4, discuss action-72, closed
16:46:57 [Zakim]
I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
16:46:58 [Zakim]
2. tech plenary discussion [from ChrisWilson]
16:47:03 [ChrisWilson]
zakim, take up next item
16:47:03 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "tech plenary discussion" taken up [from ChrisWilson]
16:47:11 [oedipus]
TOPIC: TPAC 2008
16:47:19 [smedero]
TPAC agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Sep/0303.html
16:47:26 [oedipus]
CW: MikeS sent out email on TPAC agenda - only 1 response received so far
16:47:50 [mjs]
mjs has joined #html-wg
16:48:07 [oedipus]
CW: my take on TPAC similar to MikeSmith's -- first steps are looking through spec and ascertaining where spec is stable enough to generate test cases and creating test suite
16:48:20 [oedipus]
CW: figuring out where we are in terms of stability more interesting in short term
16:48:43 [oedipus]
CW: any suggestions for additions to TPAC meetings, plese send to list
16:49:06 [oedipus]
LH: too much time on tutorial slotted (3 hours)
16:49:41 [oedipus]
CW: going to end up spending a lot more of our time figuring out what portions of tech are ready for test cases; easier for us to expand into test case writing area than contract schedule - take what time is needed
16:49:50 [oedipus]
LH: ok
16:49:54 [hsivonen]
q+
16:49:54 [ChrisWilson]
zakim, close item 2
16:49:55 [Zakim]
I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, ChrisWilson
16:50:00 [ChrisWilson]
ack hsivonen
16:50:18 [oedipus]
HS: face2face time better for discussion than writing tests
16:50:21 [oedipus]
CW: absolutely
16:51:05 [oedipus]
CW: comment to MikeS was time spent at last TPAC doing tutorial on how to build test cases useful - can see us spending that time, but this time with follow up -- identifying where we can write test cases - what is solid and what is not
16:51:25 [oedipus]
CW: don't want to spend a lot of time with everyone coding - not point of TPAC meeting
16:51:35 [Lachy]
DanC, I don't have any ideas yet, but I'll think about it and mail the list
16:51:47 [oedipus]
CW: value in using test suite for getting handle on how stable spec is, which is what i really want to get out of f2f
16:51:50 [DanC]
(I wish I'd made more progress on tests to date... sometimes I wonder where all the time went.)
16:52:08 [oedipus]
TOPIC: Additional Items
16:52:09 [ChrisWilson]
any other items for discussion today?
16:52:14 [oedipus]
CW: additional items for discussion?
16:52:37 [oedipus]
DanC: next week (18 september)
16:52:42 [ChrisWilson]
move to adjourn?
16:52:47 [Julian]
publication of spec?
16:53:00 [oedipus]
CW: at Web 2.0 conference in New York - scheduled to be doing something at this time slot - have to check MikeS' availability
16:53:10 [oedipus]
CW: have to move tuesday call too
16:53:22 [DanC]
I'm out-of-office 25 Sep and 2 Oct
16:53:25 [Zakim]
-Cynthia_Shelly
16:53:30 [Zakim]
-Lachy
16:53:32 [oedipus]
DanC: not available 25 september and 2 october
16:53:32 [ChrisWilson]
adjourned
16:53:32 [Zakim]
-smedero
16:53:35 [Zakim]
-hsivonen
16:53:36 [Zakim]
-Laura
16:53:39 [Zakim]
-Julian
16:53:45 [Zakim]
-Gregory_Rosmaita
16:53:45 [ChrisWilson]
Thanks again to oedipus for scribing
16:53:47 [Zakim]
-Shepazu
16:53:49 [oedipus]
zakim, please part
16:53:49 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were +1.425.646.aaaa, smedero, +1.408.398.aabb, ChrisWilson, DanC, Julian, +1.218.349.aadd, Gregory_Rosmaita, hsivonen, Cynthia_Shelly,
16:53:49 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #html-wg
16:53:52 [Zakim]
... Lachy, Laura, Shepazu
16:54:10 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:54:10 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus
16:54:47 [oedipus]
present- aaaa
16:54:53 [oedipus]
present+ Lachlan_Hunt
16:55:03 [oedipus]
present- aabb
16:55:29 [oedipus]
present+ Laura_Carlson
16:55:35 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:55:35 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus
16:56:06 [oedipus]
present- +1.408.398.aabb
16:56:21 [oedipus]
present- +1.425.646.aaaa
16:56:44 [oedipus]
present- +1.218.349.aadd
16:56:49 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:56:49 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus
16:57:34 [oedipus]
present+ Doug_Schepers
16:57:40 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:57:40 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus
17:00:09 [oedipus]
rrsagent, please part
17:00:09 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items