14:55:30 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rif
14:55:30 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/09/09-rif-irc
14:55:36 <ChrisW> zakim, this will be rif
14:55:39 <Zakim> ok, ChrisW; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes
14:55:53 <ChrisW> Meeting: RIF Telecon 9-Sep-2008
14:56:32 <ChrisW> Chair: Chris Welty
14:56:44 <ChrisW> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Sep/0085.html
14:56:57 <ChrisW> ChrisW has changed the topic to: 9 Sept RIF Telecon agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Sep/0085.html
14:57:08 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
14:57:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/09/09-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
14:57:14 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make logs public
14:58:07 <ChrisW> zakim, clear agenda
14:58:07 <Zakim> agenda cleared
14:58:10 <ChrisW> agenda+ Admin
14:58:14 <ChrisW> agenda+ Liason
14:58:19 <ChrisW> agenda+ Publicity
14:58:23 <ChrisW> agenda+ Action review
14:58:28 <ChrisW> agenda+ F2F11
14:58:32 <ChrisW> agenda+ Core
14:58:36 <ChrisW> agenda+ PRD
14:58:44 <ChrisW> agenda+ Test Cases
14:58:49 <ChrisW> agenda+ Pick a scribe
14:58:53 <ChrisW> agenda+ AOB
14:59:06 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
14:59:06 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Admin" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:00:42 <Harold> Harold has joined #rif
15:01:30 <csma> csma has joined #rif
15:01:44 <Leora_Morgenstern> Leora_Morgenstern has joined #rif
15:02:13 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
15:02:20 <Zakim> +[IBM]
15:02:22 <Zakim> +[NRCC]
15:02:29 <ChrisW> zakim, ibm is temporarily me
15:02:29 <Zakim> +ChrisW; got it
15:02:35 <Zakim> +??P51
15:02:43 <csma> zakim, ??P51 is me
15:02:43 <Zakim> +csma; got it
15:02:58 <Harold>  zakim, [NRCC] is me
15:02:58 <Zakim> +Harold; got it
15:03:00 <Zakim> +Sandro
15:03:06 <DaveReynolds> DaveReynolds has joined #rif
15:03:10 <Zakim> +LeoraMorgenstern
15:03:28 <MichaelKifer> MichaelKifer has joined #rif
15:03:35 <Zakim> +??P0
15:03:35 <Zakim> +Dave_Reynolds (was ??P0)
15:04:16 <Hassan> Hassan has joined #rif
15:04:29 <Zakim> +Stella_Mitchell
15:04:41 <Zakim> +Hassan_Ait-Kaci
15:05:45 <ChrisW> Scribe: DaveReynolds
15:05:45 <PaulVincent> PaulVincent has joined #RIF
15:06:15 <DaveReynolds> ScribeNick: DaveReynolds
15:06:19 <sandro> zakim, who is here?
15:06:20 <ChrisW> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Sep/att-0043/20080902-rif-minutes.html
15:06:24 <Zakim> On the phone I see ChrisW, Harold, csma, Sandro, LeoraMorgenstern, Dave_Reynolds, Stella_Mitchell, Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted)
15:06:31 <Zakim> On IRC I see PaulVincent, Hassan, MichaelKifer, DaveReynolds, Leora_Morgenstern, csma, Harold, RRSAgent, ChrisW, sandro, trackbot, AdrianP, StellaMItchell, LeoraMorgenstern,
15:06:31 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: accept minutes from Sept 2 telecon
15:06:36 <Zakim> ... YutingZhao, Zakim
15:06:56 <Zakim> +??P60
15:07:13 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: accept minutes from Sept 2 telecon
15:07:26 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
15:07:26 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Liason" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:07:29 <csma> zakim, mute me
15:07:29 <Zakim> csma should now be muted
15:07:41 <csma> ack me
15:07:50 <Stella_Mitchell> Stella_Mitchell has joined #rif
15:08:35 <csma> zakim, ??P60 is ChanghaiKe
15:08:35 <Zakim> +ChanghaiKe; got it
15:08:49 <Zakim> +GaryHallmark
15:09:11 <Harold> 4.3 Reasoning in OWL 2 RL and RDF Graphs using Rules
15:09:11 <Harold> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Profiles#Reasoning_in_OWL_2_RL_and_RDF_Graphs_using_Rules
15:09:38 <GaryHallmark> GaryHallmark has joined #rif
15:09:47 <DaveReynolds> Sandro: OWL WG rule profile is progressing, at some point should look at the rules and check can be written in BLD
15:10:01 <DaveReynolds> Sandro: compare with our embedding, etc.
15:10:09 <DaveReynolds> Sandro: Jos critical path for some of that?
15:10:18 <DaveReynolds> ChrisW: Impact on last call?
15:11:20 <DaveReynolds> ChrisW: there were OWL WG participants in the SWC document, does OWL-2 have any impact on that?
15:11:43 <DaveReynolds> Sandro: no evidence there is a problem, but should have someone who knows what they are doing look it over.
15:12:02 <ChrisW> action: sandro to ask for a review of RDF&OWL from OWL-wg
15:12:02 <trackbot> Created ACTION-573 - Ask for a review of RDF&OWL from OWL-wg [on Sandro Hawke - due 2008-09-16].
15:16:13 <ChrisW> action: DaveReynolds to look at OWL-2-RL rules and consider whether they are implementable in BLD
15:16:13 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - DaveReynolds
15:16:15 <csma> q?
15:16:27 <csma> zakim, mute me
15:16:27 <Zakim> csma should now be muted
15:16:28 <ChrisW> action: Dave to look at OWL-2-RL rules and consider whether they are implementable in BLD
15:16:28 <trackbot> Created ACTION-574 - Look at OWL-2-RL rules and consider whether they are implementable in BLD [on Dave Reynolds - due 2008-09-16].
15:16:53 <ChrisW> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:16:53 <Zakim> On the phone I see ChrisW, Harold, csma (muted), Sandro, LeoraMorgenstern, Dave_Reynolds, StellaMitchell, Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), ChanghaiKe, GaryHallmark
15:16:53 <csma> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:16:57 <Zakim> On the phone I see ChrisW, Harold, csma (muted), Sandro, LeoraMorgenstern, Dave_Reynolds, StellaMitchell, Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), ChanghaiKe, GaryHallmark
15:17:06 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
15:17:06 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Publicity" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:17:17 <csma> zakim, unmute me
15:17:17 <Zakim> csma should no longer be muted
15:17:29 <AdrianPa> AdrianPa has joined #rif
15:17:39 <Zakim> +AdrianPa
15:17:46 <AdrianPa> Zakim, mute me
15:17:46 <Zakim> AdrianPa should now be muted
15:18:38 <DaveReynolds> ChrisW: there is a Wiki page for linking external announcement postings, checking what have been executed
15:18:47 <ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Publicity
15:20:13 <ChrisW> zakim, unmute AdrianPa
15:20:13 <Zakim> AdrianPa should no longer be muted
15:22:12 <Zakim> -AdrianPa
15:22:54 <csma> q?
15:23:40 <AdrianPa> AdrianPa has joined #rif
15:23:40 <sandro> Harold: Michael posted to xsb, flora-users, [etc]
15:23:54 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
15:23:54 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Action review" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:24:08 <csma> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-comments/2008Sep/0000.html
15:24:15 <DaveReynolds> csma: have new public comment 
15:24:33 <Zakim> +AdrianP
15:24:42 <AdrianPa> Zakim, mute me
15:24:42 <Zakim> sorry, AdrianPa, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
15:24:56 <AdrianPa> Zakim, AdrianPa is me
15:24:56 <Zakim> sorry, AdrianPa, I do not recognize a party named 'AdrianPa'
15:25:11 <DaveReynolds> ChrisW: need to start a wiki page on it, it is mostly about FLD
15:25:17 <DaveReynolds> Harold: Michael is aware of it
15:25:19 <Harold> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Response_to_OK
15:26:04 <DaveReynolds> Harold: created a page for response to Richard OK comments
15:26:53 <DaveReynolds> ACTION-572 completed by Jos
15:27:15 <DaveReynolds> s/OK/O'Keefe/
15:27:29 <DaveReynolds> ACTION-570 pending discussion
15:27:53 <AdrianPa> yes, will put it to top priority
15:28:14 <Hassan> yes
15:28:41 <DaveReynolds> ACTION-564 continued, waiting on APS discussions
15:29:02 <DaveReynolds> Hassan: waiting for syntax to settle
15:29:31 <AdrianPa> Zakim, mute me
15:29:31 <Zakim> sorry, AdrianPa, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
15:29:32 <ChrisW> zakim, list agenda
15:29:33 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda:
15:29:34 <Zakim> 4. Action review [from ChrisW]
15:29:34 <Zakim> 5. F2F11 [from ChrisW]
15:29:35 <Zakim> 6. Core [from ChrisW]
15:29:35 <Zakim> 8. Test Cases [from ChrisW]
15:29:37 <Zakim> 9. Pick a scribe [from ChrisW]
15:29:37 <Zakim> 10. AOB [from ChrisW]
15:30:24 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
15:30:24 <Zakim> agendum 5. "F2F11" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:31:08 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/38457/f2f11reg/
15:31:42 <DaveReynolds> ChrisW: F2F11 proceeding as planned. Any objections to the proposed dinner should be raised now.
15:32:09 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
15:32:09 <Zakim> agendum 6. "Core" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:32:15 <csma> PROPOSED: Core will not have named-argument uniterms
15:33:02 <DaveReynolds> ChrisW: seemed to be consensus on closing this at last discussion. 
15:33:31 <DaveReynolds> Gary: so why are they in BLD?
15:33:43 <DaveReynolds> ChrisW: it was a close decision even there.
15:34:29 <DaveReynolds> ChrisW: at that point there was an explicit flag that being in BLD didn't mean necessarily having them in Core
15:34:29 <ChrisW> zakim, who is talking?
15:34:40 <Zakim> ChrisW, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Sandro (24%), ChrisW (5%), GaryHallmark (63%)
15:34:48 <ChrisW> sandro - breathing
15:34:50 <DaveReynolds> Gary: this doesn't seem like a painful thing to implement
15:34:57 <sandro> sorry, I'll stop breathing.
15:35:22 <csma> q?
15:35:37 <AdrianPa> Zakim, who is on the phone?
15:35:37 <Zakim> On the phone I see ChrisW, Harold, csma, Sandro, LeoraMorgenstern, Dave_Reynolds, StellaMitchell, Hassan_Ait-Kaci (muted), ChanghaiKe, GaryHallmark, AdrianP
15:35:52 <AdrianPa> Zakim, AdrianP is me
15:35:52 <Zakim> +AdrianPa; got it
15:35:57 <DaveReynolds> Sandro: don't object but it would be nice to have a clear rationale to explain the decision to others
15:35:58 <AdrianPa> Zakim, mute me
15:35:58 <Zakim> AdrianPa should now be muted
15:36:23 <DaveReynolds> csma: want to keep the option of dialects that don't have it, if it is in Core then all dialects have to have it
15:36:25 <sandro> csma: reason -- we want to keep the possibility of having dialects that don't have it.   that's why not in core.
15:36:30 <MichaelKifer> MichaelKifer has joined #rif
15:37:16 <Zakim> +Michael_Kifer
15:38:28 <DaveReynolds> ChrisW: current open issues for Core - classification constructs (46), decideable (71), access to external functions (71), skolem functions (72), no predicates (74), disjunction (75)
15:38:28 <MichaelKifer> zakim, mute me
15:38:28 <Zakim> Michael_Kifer should now be muted
15:40:24 <DaveReynolds> Harold/Gary: disjunction not a no-brainer. Gary would like it or some equivalent.
15:41:20 <DaveReynolds> Harold: equality not-in-head already agreed, 76 is about equality in body
15:42:12 <DaveReynolds> ChrisW: straw poll for NOT equality-in-head in Core
15:42:18 <DaveReynolds> [No objections voiced]
15:42:42 <DaveReynolds> ChrisW: what would be needed to resolve 76?
15:42:56 <MichaelKifer> zakim, unmute me
15:42:56 <Zakim> Michael_Kifer should no longer be muted
15:43:03 <DaveReynolds> Harold: relates to the issue of builtins - predicates or functions
15:43:14 <AdrianPa> we discussed restricted equality in the body
15:43:23 <DaveReynolds> Michael: disagrees, just an identity relationship, sees no reason not to include it
15:44:13 <DaveReynolds> Hassan: becomes syntactic equality, most trivial 
15:44:56 <Harold> Even if you don't have an equality construct for the body, everyone could define it in one fact: eq(?x ?x).
15:46:42 <AdrianPa> in PRD it is a single assignment function
15:47:13 <AdrianPa> slightly different from equality assignment which might reduce to identy equality if both sides are bound
15:47:17 <Hassan> = thens means are these two pointers identical
15:47:32 <Hassan> s/thens/then/
15:48:17 <Hassan> Can we have an example of where it is useful?
15:49:11 <DaveReynolds> Dave: doesn't this require equation rewriting
15:49:18 <DaveReynolds> Gary: yes but need that any way
15:49:21 <Harold> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/DTB#pred:numeric-equal_.28adapted_from_op:numeric-equal.29
15:49:32 <MichaelKifer> zakim, mute me
15:49:32 <Zakim> Michael_Kifer should now be muted
15:49:59 <MichaelKifer> zakim, unmute me
15:49:59 <Zakim> Michael_Kifer should no longer be muted
15:50:15 <csma> Adrian, what do you mean with "in PRD, it is a single assignment function"? You mean: equality?
15:50:26 <GaryHallmark> A(?x) := A(?x - 1) requires expression rewriting for PRD
15:50:39 <GaryHallmark> s/:=/:-
15:50:41 <Hassan> I agree with Dave. We should spell out the criteria of what is or isn't in Core.
15:51:44 <sandro> I think so, yes, some builting in core
15:51:44 <GaryHallmark> i.e. rewrite to A(?x+1) :- A(?x)
15:51:51 <Hassan> Arithmetic?
15:52:05 <DaveReynolds> Michael: doesn't require any new mechanism beyond what you need for builtins anyway
15:54:13 <DaveReynolds> Dave: but for builtins we have on the table the possibility of binding patterns to restrict use, that wouldn't apply to syntax constructs like this equality
15:54:45 <DaveReynolds> Michael: binding pattern's aren't going to fly in Core anyway
15:55:55 <DaveReynolds> Sandro: trying to see where someone would need it
15:55:55 <Harold> My above eq(?x ?x) could be used for (single-)assignments, the above pred:numeric-equal(?arg1 ?arg2) could not.
15:56:15 <DaveReynolds> Michael: consider use in prolog
15:56:15 <Harold> This is because of the modes ("binding patterns")
15:56:45 <Harold>  eq(?myvar 1)  is fine.
15:56:47 <DaveReynolds> Dave: what about SWC and interaction with owl:sameAs
15:56:59 <DaveReynolds> Michael: it is not identity over datatypes
15:57:04 <Harold> pred:numeric-equal(?myvar 1)  is not fine.
16:01:24 <DaveReynolds> Dave: is there a difference between this equality and an untyped equality buitin?
16:01:39 <DaveReynolds> ChrisW: seems the same
16:03:37 <ChrisW> zakim, take up item 7
16:03:37 <Zakim> agendum 7. "PRD" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:03:39 <Hassan> gotta go - bye
16:03:43 <MichaelKifer> zakim, mute me
16:03:43 <Zakim> Michael_Kifer should now be muted
16:03:45 <Zakim> -Hassan_Ait-Kaci
16:03:46 <DaveReynolds> ChrisW: wants to get this one closed, at least agree on a resolution next week
16:04:36 <DaveReynolds> ChrisW: this is action-554 and issue-66
16:05:14 <DaveReynolds> Gary:  made several suggestions on object creation
16:05:32 <DaveReynolds> Gary: basic issue is whether there is something that should be shared with Core/BLD
16:06:03 <AdrianPa> I would vote for a special new built-in, too
16:06:24 <csma> Why is that a builtin? 
16:06:57 <AdrianPa> this would allow new logic RIF dialects which support object creation
16:06:58 <csma> I mean, why is that "New" construct a builtin, not an action (like Assert, Retract, etc)?
16:07:12 <DaveReynolds> Gary: proposed options including builtin, skolem function like approach and new syntax
16:07:31 <DaveReynolds> Gary: so would the group like something that can be in Core or should PRD go off in its own direction?
16:08:30 <DaveReynolds> csma: don't understand why it is sometimes referred to as a builtin, isn't another action alongside assert?
16:09:18 <DaveReynolds> csma: consider RETRACT, there is an action and associated keyword (same for ASSERT even if done differently)
16:10:01 <DaveReynolds> csma: new is not a builtin because if you call it multiple times it gives different instances
16:10:28 <DaveReynolds> Gary: yes, hence the need for an occurrence number - confusing the different options
16:10:48 <AdrianPa> Zakim, unmute me
16:10:48 <Zakim> AdrianPa should no longer be muted
16:10:59 <AdrianPa> q+
16:12:59 <DaveReynolds> Adrian: advantage of a builtin is that it can be used in other dialects, so can call it in the body of a new
16:14:32 <DaveReynolds> Gary: builtin is a pure mathematical function, fixed interpretation function, so Gensym is not legal
16:15:31 <csma> ack adrian
16:15:34 <DaveReynolds> csma: preference is for option (a) then?
16:15:53 <DaveReynolds> q+
16:15:56 <DaveReynolds> q-
16:15:59 <AdrianPa> Stakeholder for Assert and Retract are is e.g. a RIF Prolog dialect
16:16:26 <GaryHallmark> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Sep/0087.html
16:16:35 <AdrianPa> Most prolog engines support assert and retract built-ins in the body of a rule
16:17:12 <AdrianPa> Zakim, mute me
16:17:12 <Zakim> AdrianPa should now be muted
16:18:51 <DaveReynolds> Dave: do have some interest in option C, relates to issue of Skolem functions in Core.
16:19:16 <DaveReynolds> ChrisW: so if have (a) in PRD and Skolem in Core how would they interact?
16:19:43 <csma> q? to express concern about using a skolem function
16:19:59 <DaveReynolds> Gary: the import becomes more difficult because it might be faced with either formulation
16:21:27 <DaveReynolds> csma: Object creation is intrinsically non-logical concept,  if we used skolem functions for this doesn't this confuse things at least for implementers
16:22:41 <DaveReynolds> ChrisW: need to get these issues moved to closure, time is running out
16:23:19 <DaveReynolds> ChrisW: would like Gary and Harold to organize telecons for PRD and Core to progress these issues further
16:23:59 <AdrianPa> yes, good idea. Let's have a PRD task force with telecons
16:24:03 <DaveReynolds> csma: include others, not just editors, not closed
16:24:48 <DaveReynolds> ChrisW: yes, announce telecons on the mail list so stakeholders can participate
16:25:14 <DaveReynolds> csma: resolutions would still be made in the whole WG telecons
16:26:48 <DaveReynolds> ChrisW: free to use Zakim bridge for this
16:27:26 <ChrisW> zakim, list agenda
16:27:26 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
16:27:28 <Zakim> 6. Core [from ChrisW]
16:27:28 <Zakim> 8. Test Cases [from ChrisW]
16:27:30 <Zakim> 9. Pick a scribe [from ChrisW]
16:27:30 <Zakim> 10. AOB [from ChrisW]
16:27:36 <ChrisW> zakim, take up item 8
16:27:36 <Zakim> agendum 8. "Test Cases" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:28:04 <AdrianPa> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Category:Test_Case
16:28:45 <DaveReynolds> ChrisW: plan is to go through TestCases and approve them
16:29:09 <DaveReynolds> ChrisW: in first OWL WG used these to given evidence that there are implementations and they are doing what the spec says
16:29:20 <DaveReynolds> s/given/give/
16:29:49 <MichaelKifer> zakim, unmute me
16:29:49 <Zakim> Michael_Kifer should no longer be muted
16:29:50 <AdrianPa> unfortunately I will be travelling next week
16:30:01 <MichaelKifer> zakim, mute me
16:30:01 <Zakim> Michael_Kifer should now be muted
16:30:08 <ChrisW> zakim: take up item 10
16:30:11 <AdrianPa> so can not particiapte but will cordinate with the other test case editors
16:30:14 <AdrianPa> bye
16:30:24 <Zakim> -GaryHallmark
16:30:26 <Zakim> -Michael_Kifer
16:30:27 <Zakim> -LeoraMorgenstern
16:30:28 <Zakim> -StellaMitchell
16:30:28 <Zakim> -Harold
16:30:30 <Zakim> -AdrianPa
16:30:30 <ChrisW> scribe for next week: MichaelKifer
16:30:38 <ChrisW> zakim, list attendees
16:30:38 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been ChrisW, csma, Harold, Sandro, LeoraMorgenstern, Dave_Reynolds, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, ChanghaiKe, GaryHallmark, StellaMitchell, AdrianPa,
16:30:42 <Zakim> ... Michael_Kifer
16:30:58 <ChrisW> Regrets: JosDeBruijn AxelPolleres StuartTaylor
16:31:03 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
16:31:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/09/09-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
16:31:29 <Zakim> -Dave_Reynolds
16:33:46 <ChrisW> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:33:46 <Zakim> On the phone I see ChrisW, csma, Sandro, ChanghaiKe
16:34:00 <ChrisW> zakim, drop ChanghaiKe
16:34:00 <Zakim> ChanghaiKe is being disconnected
16:34:02 <Zakim> -ChanghaiKe
16:36:35 <Zakim> -Sandro
16:36:38 <Zakim> -ChrisW
16:36:39 <Zakim> -csma
16:36:39 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
16:36:41 <Zakim> Attendees were ChrisW, csma, Harold, Sandro, LeoraMorgenstern, Dave_Reynolds, Hassan_Ait-Kaci, ChanghaiKe, GaryHallmark, StellaMitchell, AdrianPa, Michael_Kifer