14:50:47 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #backplane
14:50:47 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/09/09-backplane-irc
14:50:55 <Charlie> zakim, this will be RWAB
14:50:55 <Zakim> ok, Charlie; I see INC_RWAB()11:00AM scheduled to start in 10 minutes
14:51:02 <Charlie> rrsagent, make logs public
14:51:10 <oedipus>  agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-app-backplane/2008Sep/0005.html
14:51:16 <oedipus> meeting: Rich Web Applications Backplane Weekly Call
14:51:18 <Charlie> Meeting: Rich Web Backplane Weekly telecon
14:51:20 <Charlie> ah...sorry
14:51:23 <oedipus> Chair: Charlie_Wiecha
14:51:26 <Charlie> go for it
14:51:30 <oedipus> Scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
14:51:34 <oedipus> ScribeNick: oedipus
14:51:38 <oedipus> Previous: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-app-backplane/2008Aug/0021.html
14:51:55 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
14:51:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/09/09-backplane-minutes.html oedipus
14:52:54 <oedipus> Regrets: John_Boyer
14:52:59 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
14:52:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/09/09-backplane-minutes.html oedipus
14:53:41 <oedipus> Previous: http://www.w3.org/2008/08/19-backplane-minutes.html
14:53:55 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
14:53:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/09/09-backplane-minutes.html oedipus
14:55:29 <Zakim> INC_RWAB()11:00AM has now started
14:55:36 <Zakim> +Charles_Wiecha
14:56:15 <Charlie> zakim, who is here?
14:56:15 <Zakim> On the phone I see Charles_Wiecha
14:56:16 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, oedipus, Charlie
14:56:23 <Charlie> zakim, Charles_Wiecha is Charlie
14:56:23 <Zakim> +Charlie; got it
14:56:24 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita
14:59:44 <jackjansen> jackjansen has joined #backplane
14:59:52 <Steven> Steven has joined #backplane
15:00:25 <Charlie> k
15:01:17 <unl> unl has joined #backplane
15:02:00 <Zakim> +[IBM]
15:02:22 <Kevin> Kevin has joined #backplane
15:02:41 <oedipus> TOPIC: Announcements & News
15:02:50 <oedipus> Kevin: can only stay for part of the meeting
15:02:50 <Zakim> + +49.307.544.aaaa
15:03:05 <oedipus> zakim, aaaa is Uli
15:03:08 <Zakim> +Uli; got it
15:03:13 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
15:03:13 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
15:03:13 <rahul> rahul has joined #backplane
15:03:14 <Zakim> +Steven
15:03:22 <Zakim> +[IBM.a]
15:03:34 <oedipus> zakim, IBM.a is Rahul
15:03:34 <Zakim> +Rahul; got it
15:03:42 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
15:03:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/09/09-backplane-minutes.html oedipus
15:03:55 <oedipus> zakim, who is here?
15:03:55 <Zakim> On the phone I see Charlie, Gregory_Rosmaita, [IBM], Uli, Steven, Rahul
15:03:57 <Zakim> On IRC I see rahul, Kevin, unl, Steven, jackjansen, RRSAgent, Zakim, oedipus, Charlie
15:04:10 <unl> zakim, mute me
15:04:11 <Zakim> sorry, unl, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
15:04:19 <Zakim> + +31.20.616.aabb
15:04:25 <unl> zakim, Uli is me
15:04:28 <oedipus> zakim, IBM is Kevin
15:04:31 <Zakim> +unl; got it
15:04:35 <Zakim> +Kevin; got it
15:04:40 <oedipus> zakim, who is here?
15:04:40 <unl> zakim, mute me
15:04:48 <jackjansen> zakim, +31.20.616.aabb is me
15:04:51 <Zakim> On the phone I see Charlie, Gregory_Rosmaita, Kevin, unl, Steven, Rahul, +31.20.616.aabb
15:04:59 <Zakim> unl should now be muted
15:05:05 <Zakim> +jackjansen; got it
15:05:20 <oedipus> CW: topics for today?  sent out strawman for TPAC
15:05:22 <Zakim> On IRC I see rahul, Kevin, unl, Steven, jackjansen, RRSAgent, Zakim, oedipus, Charlie
15:05:30 <oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-app-backplane/2008Sep/att-0007/loan_v.xhtml
15:05:44 <oedipus> CW: multi-modal, voice and xml events
15:05:47 <Steven> q+ to ask about CDF
15:05:54 <oedipus> CW: start with TPAC planning?
15:05:58 <oedipus> ack steven
15:06:14 <Zakim> Steven, you wanted to ask about CDF
15:06:14 <oedipus> SP: CDF and @role
15:06:18 <oedipus> ack Steven
15:06:25 <oedipus> CW: particular question?
15:07:08 <oedipus> SP: kevin was chair of CDF -- CDF at CR stage - since that is about combining techs together, is there a cross-over and compatibility check with CDF
15:07:16 <oedipus> CW: kevin, where is CDF
15:08:11 <oedipus> Kevin: ensuring aligned with backplane, why in group; stuck in a rechartering mode working with AC rep to be allowed to rejoin; charter change, and change in IP policy; CDF WG membership dropped from 25 to 5 because all had to rejoin; no longer chair, looking for new chair now
15:08:27 <oedipus> Kevin: everyone has to rejoin individually; AC review of charter, etc.
15:08:37 <oedipus> Kevin: CDF probably out-of-action until end of year
15:08:50 <oedipus> Kevin: hopefully restart in february 2009
15:09:09 <oedipus> CW: understand general CDF framework - where are the touchpoints with RWAB
15:09:57 <oedipus> Kevin: both frameworks - doesn't impinge on anything planning for backplane; like to see backplane XG get to state where create profile based on CDF base profile and get content created on that profile with ideas working in RWAB
15:10:08 <oedipus> CW: XForms & GUI stuff; voiceXML profile, etc.
15:10:45 <oedipus> Kevin: yes, like to reuse CDF work on identification and slide profile underneath CDF infrastructure; hope RWAB proves CDF framework is viable; designed for the type of work RWAB doing
15:10:59 <oedipus> CW: deliverables?
15:11:11 <oedipus> CW: expressing in generalized way in profile will be good
15:11:20 <jackjansen> q+ to ask for intro reading on cdf
15:11:20 <oedipus> Kevin: assumed at end of XG, will have profile for CDF
15:11:29 <oedipus> ack jackjansen
15:11:29 <Zakim> jackjansen, you wanted to ask for intro reading on cdf
15:11:44 <oedipus> CW: examine example profiles and how to approach
15:12:04 <oedipus> JJ: intro reading/background on CDF you would recommend?
15:12:16 <oedipus> Kevin: will put pointers into IRC
15:12:20 <jackjansen> zakim, mute me
15:12:20 <Zakim> jackjansen should now be muted
15:12:21 <oedipus> CW: best practices profile
15:12:39 <oedipus> CW: modularization discussions in Forms WG; what spec or schema looks like
15:12:47 <oedipus> Kevin: only have 1 profile currently
15:13:07 <oedipus> Kevin: mobile flavor (SVG tiny + XHTML) and full SVG + XHTML profile
15:13:23 <oedipus> CW: look at those in a couple of weeks-- have kevin walk us through
15:13:45 <oedipus> Kevin: not available next week; should be on 9/21/2008 call; away end of month
15:14:03 <Kevin> CDF Framework (intro reading) http://www.w3.org/2004/CDF/Group/specs/CDR/wp1/cdf.xml
15:14:03 <oedipus> CW: shoot for 21 September 2008 for profile intro and questions
15:14:10 <oedipus> CW: rechartering, and then...
15:14:43 <oedipus> Kevin: several candidates for other profiles; should meet with  CDF if WG members there; SMIL timing profile been on radar
15:14:59 <oedipus> Uli: hard to contact over last few months
15:15:24 <Charlie> s/Uli/Jack
15:15:50 <jackjansen> zakim, mute me
15:15:50 <Zakim> jackjansen should now be muted
15:15:51 <oedipus> CW: good direction - do have meeting scheduled with MultiModal group
15:16:02 <Kevin> WICD profile Core http://www.w3.org/2004/CDF/Group/specs/CDR/wp1/wicd.xml
15:16:22 <oedipus> CW: trying to tiptoe around HTML versus XHTML WG politics; deal strictly with XML Events and VoiceXML
15:16:24 <Kevin> WICD mobile profile (based on WICD Core and CDF Framework) http://www.w3.org/2004/CDF/Group/specs/CDR/wp1/wicd-mobile.xml
15:16:35 <oedipus> CW: anything else?
15:16:38 <Kevin> WICD Full http://www.w3.org/2004/CDF/Group/specs/CDR/wp1/wicd-full.xml
15:16:41 <oedipus> TOPIC: TPAC Planning
15:16:53 <oedipus> CW: formal call for presentations on wednesday track not out yet
15:17:01 <oedipus> SP: ball in my court now, so need to follow up
15:17:35 <oedipus> SP: vague theme about different techs working together - interoperability proposals - can send in proposal pre-call
15:17:39 <oedipus> CW: how long?
15:17:51 <Kevin> why CDF article http://www.axistive.com/how-does-compound-document-framework-benefit-us.html
15:17:52 <oedipus> SP: standard TP length - lightning talks and half-hour slots
15:18:00 <oedipus> SP: RWAB would be a 30 minute slot
15:18:31 <oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-app-backplane/2008Sep/att-0007/loan_v.xhtml
15:18:49 <oedipus> CW: been 2 years since had backplane panel (linked-to from wiki)
15:18:56 <oedipus> CW: generally got interest going
15:19:14 <Zakim> -Steven
15:19:15 <Kevin> some CDF precursor articles http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/x-cxdp1/   &   http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/x-cxdp2/
15:19:26 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
15:19:26 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
15:19:28 <Zakim> +Steven
15:20:08 <oedipus> CW: want to get people excited; remind people of ideas that came out of 2006 panel - sharing submission and data; patterns of interactive design; when something ocurs in XForms page, may be message in data model; instead of recalculating, allow other parties to weigh in on default action
15:20:31 <oedipus> CW: more collaborative and transparent approach -- what RWAB needs
15:20:46 <oedipus> CW: illustrate different things from same data sources
15:21:08 <oedipus> CW: experimental approach, not spec writing approach; 
15:21:11 <oedipus> CW: Jack
15:21:42 <oedipus> CW: Jack's stuff is ready; new example up - VoiceXML support in FF -- have what needed to make work
15:22:32 <oedipus> CW: Mark Birbeck suggested a second talk -- coordinated discussions; makes sense, but may be too long and off topic for TPAC this year
15:22:39 <oedipus> CW: work on interaction alternatives?
15:23:13 <oedipus> SP: looks good to me; probably won't be talking in session; who would like to talk and what to demo
15:23:31 <oedipus> Kevin: concern is that we show something new -- VoiceXML and extensions been demoed
15:23:48 <oedipus> CW: concern of mine, too -- need an angle
15:24:05 <oedipus> Kevin: demo needs to show something people haven't seen before
15:24:46 <jackjansen> offtopic: what's x+v?
15:25:03 <Steven> XHTML+VOICE
15:25:13 <Steven> Implemented in Opera
15:25:24 <jackjansen> steven, thanks
15:25:28 <oedipus> CW: targetted at streamlined syntax of XForms - explaning HTML4 and HTML5 in terms of XForms - sync element hooking up to HTML input field, MVC arcitecture not available in HTML4 - depper architecture happening on GUI -- hooking up Voice with streamlined Xforms; issues a lot clearer with streamlining
15:25:36 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml+voice/
15:25:42 <oedipus> CW: thoughts?
15:25:54 <oedipus> Kevin: what would be too subtle?
15:27:06 <oedipus> CW: explain the evolution of streamlined XForms syntax - interpret HTML4/5 element which adds a lot of power, including validation; put in Voice dialog via data elements - voice form could be economical - don't need sync elements - don't have to invent new markup to implement; coordination part of story; GUI part of story
15:27:17 <oedipus> CW: let Forms group take care of background?
15:27:35 <oedipus> CW: devil in the details -- refresh interest
15:27:54 <oedipus> JJ: not only Voice, but having a real data model behind form -- help auto-filling of forms
15:28:54 <oedipus> CW: that's my point about streamlined syntax and why using that approach is better for Voice hookup; may not see in markup or care about at runtime, but if do care, it is there; register event handler on form element as off XForm control and sync to Voice - show can do better job with Multimodal interaction
15:29:30 <oedipus> CW: if pair with MarkB and let him give overview of streamlining; explain backplane using xforms to give fresh look at voice interaction
15:29:37 <oedipus> CW: model is there for SMIL case
15:29:44 <oedipus> JJ: would be great - you can do it?
15:29:51 <oedipus> JJ: will be there monday and tuesday only
15:30:08 <oedipus> CW: will be presenting on wednesday
15:30:33 <oedipus> TOPIC: Discussion of Straw Man Streamlined Example
15:30:43 <oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-app-backplane/2008Sep/att-0007/loan_v.xhtml
15:30:48 <Zakim> -Kevin
15:32:11 <oedipus> CW: ARIA implementation?  just begining to streamline in ubiquity process - transforming cannonical XForms syntax; overloading HTML/XHTML with XForms or vice versa
15:32:26 <oedipus> CW: not use streamline version of loan form
15:32:46 <oedipus> GJR: work off version of form demoed at last meeting
15:32:47 <oedipus> CW: yes
15:32:50 <oedipus> GJR: ok 
15:33:58 <oedipus> GJR: calendar widget biggest piece of work
15:34:46 <Charlie> http://code.google.com/p/ubiquity-xforms/wiki/SimplifiedLoanForm
15:35:06 <oedipus> ACTION: Gregory - provide roadmap for ARIA enabling loan form (simplified loan form) - due 2008-09-15
15:35:12 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
15:35:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/09/09-backplane-minutes.html oedipus
15:35:38 <oedipus> GJR: using streamlined attachment get an error message from FF3.01
15:35:49 <oedipus> XML Parsing Error: prefix not bound to a namespace
15:36:46 <oedipus> CW: semantics vis a vis HTML5 and XHTML; Voice interaction implications; formal presence of model and instance and behavior of instances in terms of events that fire, can then reuse events more robustly than before
15:36:59 <oedipus> CW: what does it mean to write this from a "markup" Point-of-View
15:37:56 <oedipus> CW: input markup that tranforms/transcodes into underlying xforms markup (replace INPUT with XForms namespace element); example: LABEL element - transformation on input doc before executing or is this the runtime execution as well are we overloading xforms semantics?
15:38:03 <oedipus> CW: explore some of the markup
15:39:05 <oedipus> CW: main goal: approach author with mindset of writing web page (visual elements on screen then associating interactivity) - support that use case, but explain what can be done behind scene by finding right architecture
15:39:36 <oedipus> CW: a lot of attributes put on INPUT element; lot of elements would expect in bind or data element type 
15:40:11 <oedipus> CW: attributes on control; define in streamline notation is how attributes used to generate formal elements, bindings, and constraints and used to define elements to which attached
15:40:49 <Steven> q+
15:40:57 <jackjansen> q+ to ask how authors are expected to go forward when the simplified model starts to become too cramped
15:41:02 <oedipus> CW: avoid XPath subtleties - evaluation context; want to avoid need for tree navigation in XPath expressions; 
15:41:27 <oedipus> CW: cumbersome notation if not coming from heirarchal data model; HTML author wants flat model
15:41:54 <oedipus> CW: implicitly define in terms of siblings; when author uses @name in redefined context world
15:42:02 <oedipus> ack Steven
15:43:17 <oedipus> SP: streamlined syntax is like putting FONT element back into HTML so authors don't have to be exposed to "complication" of CSS selectors; whole effort tailored to HTML5 -- appreciate that a lot of demand, but think win of using it far outweighs anything else
15:43:35 <oedipus> SP: for same reason CSS is good idea, XForms is good idea
15:44:47 <oedipus> JJ: agree with Steven; hiding what appears to be complex behind simple syntax is not good idea in long run; but from practical POV, looks very much like HTML forms - will encourage use of XForms; at some point streamlined model will break down; cannonical XForms still needs to be end-path for migration; relearn new language or will there be help for that?
15:45:31 <oedipus> CW: XForms namespaced elements with HTML; add explicit bind to provide additional constraints, can chuck in XForms notation when needed in midst of streamlined notation
15:45:50 <oedipus> CW: technically feasible, if not philosophically popular
15:45:53 <oedipus> JJ: see problems
15:46:26 <oedipus> CW: events - allow people to register listener expecting to see events bubbling up out of live elements from refresh or recalculate
15:46:41 <oedipus> CW: that is what MarkB describing - behavior important, not markup
15:46:57 <oedipus> CW: same set of events as if using cannonical XForms
15:47:12 <oedipus> JJ: will come from very strange place to someone only familiar with streamlilned syntax
15:47:32 <oedipus> CW: for someone who wants more out of standard form - revalidation, etc. -- 
15:48:03 <oedipus> JJ: if push streamline, going to attach to pieces of javascript to do what can't do with constraints -- that is breaking point
15:49:21 <oedipus> CW: attach xforms behaviors via CSS selectors in ubiquity project; when change to rule, that will fire; why MarkB substituting XForms input for HTML input - remove ability to script, would break model
15:49:31 <oedipus> CW: has to be something for runtime processing
15:49:49 <oedipus> CW: collaboration with HTML WG will be key - bridging XForms and HTML4/5
15:50:22 <oedipus> CW: wanted to get unified architecture for HTML5 forms and XForms
15:50:46 <oedipus> CW: trying to do implementation for this form to get running
15:50:58 <oedipus> CW: opportunities for discussion
15:51:28 <oedipus> SP: so many more things that can be done rather than pull over a bunch of people who object not to XForms, but to namespaces
15:52:05 <oedipus> CW: report on AJAX claimed that obstacle in AJAX to do rich internet apps, is lack of higher declarative markup
15:52:24 <oedipus> CW: bit of backlash against pure javascript - at least in analyst community
15:53:34 <oedipus> SP: backlash inevitable -- HTML approach of just sticking stuff in, come up against barriers (no exension points - all power in hands of UA devs) - how to get implemented when UA devs won't play; proof that XML extensible and showing why it is the right thing to do, rather than throw a lifeline to those who don't get it anyway
15:54:21 <oedipus> CW: JohnB mentioned that if view as analog of what dojo doing (expansive decoration of web page) -- look at as HTML input - expands into DOM node as XForms behavior
15:54:56 <oedipus> CW: not just a line thrown to non-namespacers, but of utility itself; alternate to XForms syntax and not degenerate notation for ascii html world
15:55:08 <oedipus> CW: not do in HTML namespace, but extension of XForms namespace
15:55:22 <oedipus> CW: duration input element treat as input with name support
15:55:34 <oedipus> CW: shorthand notation for what already exists
15:56:00 <oedipus> CW: clearer what we need to be careful about - both points of view may be broached at TPAC
15:56:28 <oedipus> CW: implications for SMIL Jack doing or Voice integration i proposed -- help?  muddy waters?
15:56:56 <oedipus> JJ: orthoganal - personally would use full XForms stuff, but this wouldn't hurt
15:57:34 <oedipus> CW: presentation - go through sequence XForms to second iteration with streamlined syntax (same event handlers)
15:58:38 <oedipus> JJ: path don't want to go down; in web apps stuff, emphasize base model as API - want fairly strict control over data model; how will streamlined syntax provide a data model and how?  if want XForms to integrate with SMIL, better to use actual XForms
15:58:47 <oedipus> CW: fair amount of magic
15:59:10 <oedipus> JJ: if someone writes web app with streamlined XForms and SMIL will have to make mental translation, so why not do explicitly?
15:59:20 <oedipus> CW: explicit nature of model is what is wanted
15:59:37 <oedipus> CW: streamlined syntax for guy just doing form - otherwise needs too much magic
16:00:15 <oedipus> JJ: yes; big advantage of streamlined format is looks like HTML forms; if had web page with simple form and submit, would use HTML form; XForms pretty big for simple forms
16:00:28 <oedipus> SP: simple forms in XForms are also simple
16:00:50 <oedipus> JJ: 2 input fields and a button, fine; but when more complicated, can't do a lot of things with HTML forms
16:00:59 <oedipus> SP: if try to do in HTML4 would be more complicated
16:01:08 <oedipus> JJ: once start to have repeat, need xforms
16:01:32 <oedipus> CW: need to think a bit about presentation - clear story for streamline?  if not, what about Voice demo?
16:01:45 <oedipus> CW: show not SMIL not Voice - simple focused example of pattern
16:01:52 <oedipus> CW: top of hour - adjourn
16:01:56 <Zakim> -Charlie
16:01:58 <oedipus> ADJOURNED
16:01:58 <Zakim> -Steven
16:01:58 <Zakim> -jackjansen
16:02:00 <Zakim> -unl
16:02:02 <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita
16:02:04 <Zakim> -Rahul
16:02:06 <Steven> Gregory?
16:02:06 <Zakim> INC_RWAB()11:00AM has ended
16:02:08 <Zakim> Attendees were Charlie, Gregory_Rosmaita, +49.307.544.aaaa, Steven, Rahul, unl, Kevin, jackjansen
16:02:13 <oedipus> yes, steven
16:02:32 <Steven> How do you like to be listed in an acknowledgments section?
16:02:37 <Steven> Do you have an affiliation?
16:02:45 <oedipus> Gregory J. Rosmaita, invited expert
16:02:49 <Steven> Ack
16:02:50 <Steven> thanks
16:02:52 <oedipus> thank you
16:03:14 <Charlie> Uli
16:03:18 <oedipus> ah
16:03:43 <rahul> rahul has left #backplane
16:03:57 <Charlie> yes
16:04:05 <oedipus> present- +49.307.544.aaaa
16:04:05 <Charlie> Ulrich Nicolas Lisse
16:04:12 <Charlie> yup
16:04:17 <Charlie> Charlie has left #backplane
16:04:26 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
16:04:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/09/09-backplane-minutes.html oedipus
16:04:53 <oedipus> present- unl
16:04:59 <oedipus> present+ Uli_Lisse
16:05:02 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
16:05:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/09/09-backplane-minutes.html oedipus
16:05:39 <oedipus> zakim, please part
16:05:39 <Zakim> Zakim has left #backplane
16:06:27 <oedipus> rrsagent, please part
16:06:28 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/09-backplane-actions.rdf :
16:06:28 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Gregory - provide roadmap for ARIA enabling loan form (simplified loan form) - due 2008-09-15 [1]
16:06:28 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/09/09-backplane-irc#T15-35-06