14:51:38 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdfa
14:51:38 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/09/04-rdfa-irc
14:51:46 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdfa
14:51:55 <msporny> zakim, this will be rdfa
14:51:55 <Zakim> ok, msporny; I see SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM scheduled to start in 9 minutes
14:52:08 <msporny> Meeting: RDF in XHTML Task Force
14:52:22 <msporny> Chair: Manu_Sporny
14:52:37 <msporny> rrsagent, make log public
14:52:55 <msporny> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Sep/0016.html
14:53:06 <msporny> Previous: http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html
14:53:25 <msporny> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:53:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/09/04-rdfa-minutes.html msporny
14:53:56 <msporny> Regrets: Ben_Adida
14:54:21 <msporny> Present: Manu_Sporny, Mark_Birbeck, Steven_Pemberton
14:56:54 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #rdfa
14:57:52 <Ralph> Ralph has joined #rdfa
14:58:48 <msporny> Present+ Shane_McCarron
14:58:54 <msporny> Present+ Ralph_Swick
14:58:59 <msporny> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:58:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/09/04-rdfa-minutes.html msporny
14:59:55 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has now started
15:00:02 <Zakim> +ShaneM
15:00:26 <Zakim> +Ralph
15:00:50 <Zakim> +??P34
15:00:57 <msporny> zakim, I am ??P34
15:00:57 <Zakim> +msporny; got it
15:02:40 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
15:02:40 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
15:02:41 <Zakim> +Steven
15:04:00 <msporny> Topic: Action Items
15:04:52 <Ralph> [DONE] ACTION: Ben add Noah's comments to the tracker [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action21]
15:05:31 <Ralph> -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/126 issue 126 CR Comment: conformance for markup, a processor, or both?
15:05:35 <markbirbeck> zakim, code?
15:05:35 <Zakim> the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.89.06.34.99 tel:+44.117.370.6152), markbirbeck
15:05:54 <Ralph> -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/127 issue 127 CR Comment: [Noah Mendelsohn] Comments on RDFa in XHTML: Syntax and processing
15:06:12 <Zakim> + +0208761aaaa
15:06:16 <Ralph> [CONTINUES] ACTION: Ben ask SWD to approve publication of an updated RDFa Primer [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action20]
15:06:19 <markbirbeck> zakim, i am aaaa
15:06:19 <Zakim> +markbirbeck; got it
15:06:47 <Ralph> [CONTINUES] ACTION: Manu to upload test harness source code to W3C CVS. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
15:07:26 <Ralph> Manu: I need to talk with Ralph about this
15:07:47 <Ralph> [CONTINES] ACTION: Manu to work with Microformats community to address RDFa as unified markup for uFs. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action23]
15:07:48 <msporny> http://microformats.org/discuss/mail/microformats-discuss/2008-August/012432.html
15:07:54 <Ralph> Manu: I've started this discussion
15:08:24 <Ralph> ... overall there's some push back; they'd rather I spend my time working on methods to map microformats to RDFa rather than embedding microformats in RDFa
15:08:50 <Zakim> -msporny
15:09:28 <Zakim> + +1.540.641.aabb
15:09:38 <msporny> zakim, I am +1.540.641.aabb
15:09:38 <Zakim> +msporny; got it
15:10:18 <Ralph> Manu: ... they'd like a mapping mechanism defined that each microformats parser could use
15:10:49 <Ralph> ... but I have also been contacted off-line by some saying a unified markup mechanism is better than a mapping mechanism
15:11:23 <Ralph> [CONTINUES] ACTION: Manu to write summary for Semantic Web Use Cases for Ivan. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
15:11:35 <Ralph> [DONE] ACTION: Ralph update draft response to Noah [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action22]
15:12:08 <Ralph> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Aug/0127.html Re: Comments on RDFa in XHTML: Syntax and processing [Ralph 2008-08-28]
15:12:34 <Ralph> [PENDING] ACTION: Jeremy review and consider expanding the description of TopBraid in the RDFa wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action24]
15:12:41 <Ralph> [PENDING] ACTION: Jeremy to demonstrate GRDDL with XHTML/RDFa once the NS URI is set up. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action07]
15:12:58 <Ralph> [PENDING] ACTION: Manu talk with Jamie McCarthy about an AskSlashdot piece [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action22]
15:13:16 <Ralph> [PENDING] ACTION: Manu talk with Michael Smethurst at BBC about RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action23]
15:13:25 <Ralph> Manu: I have sent email to Michael, waiting to hear back
15:13:43 <Ralph> [PENDING] ACTION: Manu to create test cases for testing relative URI resolution (href/CURIEs/etc). [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/31-rdfa-minutes.html#action22]
15:14:53 <Ralph> Ralph: if we want to update the Implementation Report again I think we should freeze the current one and start a new dated version
15:15:04 <Ralph> [PENDING] ACTION: Manu write a pending test case for literal property and no child nodes [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action02]
15:15:11 <Ralph> [PENDING] ACTION: Manu write the perl code for Slashdot [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action03]
15:15:27 <Ralph> [PENDING] ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
15:15:41 <Ralph> [PENDING] ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action07]
15:15:50 <Ralph> [PENDING] ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/03/13-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
15:16:17 <Ralph> [PENDING] ACTION: Ralph prepare to summarize new W3C test suite license on 28 Aug [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action03]
15:16:33 <Ralph> Shane: do we need to change our test suite?
15:16:35 <Ralph> Ralph: no
15:16:44 <Ralph> Shane: then this action is done to my satisfaction
15:16:48 <Ralph> [PENDING] ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
15:16:53 <Ralph> [PENDING] ACTION: Ralph to make http://www.w3.org/2008/07/rdfa-xslt happen [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action05]
15:17:09 <Ralph> [DONE] ACTION: Shane to start a wiki page for HTML4/5 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action21]
15:17:16 <Ralph> -> @@
15:17:21 <Ralph> Shane: there are 3 of them
15:17:25 <Ralph> [PENDING] ACTION: Shane to update XHTML ns document to point to new XSLT URI [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action06]
15:17:32 <Ralph> [DONE] ACTION: Shane to write home page for SPREAD. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
15:17:35 <Ralph> -> @@
15:17:38 <ShaneM> http://htmlwg.mn.aptest.com/rdfa
15:17:50 <Ralph> Topic: Status of this Task Force
15:18:22 <msporny> scribenick: msporny
15:18:34 <msporny> Ralph: The Task force is under both XHTML2 and SWD
15:18:44 <msporny> Ralph: So, most of us are members of one or the other.
15:18:56 <msporny> Ralph: This task force exists as long as the other two WGs exist.
15:19:06 <msporny> Ralph: Both charters refer explicitly to XHTML.
15:19:21 <msporny> Ralph: More directly, the deployment WG charter expires in December.
15:19:29 <msporny> Ralph: We're probably not going to extend it.
15:19:46 <msporny> Ralph: We have 4 major things on the deliverables list, RDFa was one of them.
15:19:53 <msporny> Ralph: They will probably want to focus on SKOS.
15:20:18 <msporny> Ralph: That doesn't need to stop us from talking about outreach, tutorials, wiki, etc.
15:20:39 <msporny> Ralph: We would not find much support on SWD to extend RDFa work beyond Dec.
15:20:54 <Ralph> -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/swdwg-charter SWD WG charter
15:21:18 <msporny> Ralph: Hmm, point #5 in deliverables
15:21:25 <Ralph> "5. A W3C Technical Report (Working Group Note or Recommendation) specifying how to incorporate RDF semantics into HTML documents."
15:21:27 <msporny> Ralph: Specifying how to incorporate RDF into HTML documents.
15:21:39 <Steven> XHTML2 charter says the same
15:22:03 <Steven> "RDFa, (including CURIEs) for incorporating rich (meta)data semantics into HTML documents in a way that accommodates the use of independently-developed ontologies in combination. RDFa will be developed in cooperation with the Semantic Web Deployment WG"
15:22:39 <Steven> In those days HTML means XHTML
15:22:50 <Steven> s/means/meant/
15:22:54 <msporny> Ralph: I think it's clear that we'd get pushback if we said XHTML charter applies to HTML4/5.
15:23:04 <msporny> Ralph: For RDFa 1.1, I wouldn't export any support from deployment WG.
15:23:17 <msporny> Ralph: For doing RDF in non-XHTML, I think we get different pushback.
15:23:39 <msporny> Ralph: We should be proposing a new charter for what we would want to do.
15:24:10 <Steven> We are chartered til end 2009
15:24:21 <msporny> ShaneM: If we're talking about RDFa 1.1 and the XML space...
15:24:33 <Ralph> Shane: I think for RDFa + XML work we could continue under the auspices of the XHTML2 WG for as long as we want
15:24:34 <msporny> Steven: Happy to carry on with RDFa until end of XHTML2 charter - end of next year.
15:24:49 <msporny> scribenick: ralph
15:24:58 <msporny> scribenick: msporny
15:25:15 <msporny> Ralph: Steven, Mark, Shane - do you have a feeling on what you'd like to do.
15:25:37 <msporny> Ralph: Any reason to continue it under XHTML2 WG?
15:25:45 <msporny> Ralph: or would you prefer to split it off?
15:25:51 <msporny> Steven: Haven't thought about it.
15:26:01 <msporny> Ralph: My bias is to make it a separate group.
15:26:13 <msporny> Ralph: It'll be tough to get some folks to join XHTML2 WG.
15:26:34 <msporny> Ralph: SWD has 4 separate tasks, with not much interaction between each task.
15:26:48 <msporny> Steven: This is the reason XForms got created, it makes sense.
15:27:07 <msporny> Ralph: How soon should we admit that we're starting work on RDFa 1.1?
15:27:18 <ShaneM> I don't mind if this activity became its own working group.... 
15:27:45 <msporny> Ralph: The con is fairly big to start on the next version too soon.
15:27:47 <markbirbeck> +1 To that
15:27:56 <msporny> Ralph: Creates too many opportunities for FUD.
15:27:59 <markbirbeck> not sure what's going into 1.1
15:28:34 <msporny> markbirbeck: If we have an ongoing, general charter, it might be okay.
15:28:53 <msporny> markbirbeck: To tell people that there is stuff to add to RDFa feels a bit odd.
15:29:19 <msporny> ShaneM: Agree - let it sit for a little while.
15:29:30 <msporny> ShaneM: I think we could extend it, it works fine.
15:29:36 <Ralph> Ralph: there is stuff we have deferred; syntax for lists
15:29:36 <msporny> ShaneM: Works fine as is.
15:29:43 <markbirbeck> q+
15:29:50 <msporny> ack ralph
15:30:20 <msporny> Ralph: There are certainly features of RDF, that we don't have features for in RDFa.
15:30:49 <msporny> Ralph: I think our message should be that "We recognize that there are more features to add in RDFa, but we want to see how RDFa does in the field". We need deployment experience.
15:30:51 <msporny> ack mark
15:31:03 <ShaneM> I think we need to support HTML - I don't mind how we do that.
15:31:03 <Ralph> s/experience/experience to set the feature priorities
15:31:24 <Steven> (It will always be an extra call :-) )
15:31:33 <Ralph> Mark: we could consider offering our experience to other groups
15:31:36 <Ralph> ... e.g. ATOM
15:31:50 <msporny> markbirbeck: This is time consuming for some people in this group. Perhaps we should focus on helping others get this right.
15:31:56 <Ralph> ... we could add to our Wiki list of broader RDFa deployments; not just XHTML
15:32:10 <msporny> markbirbeck: It's not just the processors, it has to do with XHTML+RDFa.
15:32:12 <ShaneM> evangelism is important too - we need to find a way to continue our marketing efforts about RDFa.
15:32:13 <Ralph> ... the processors we're currently documenting are all XHTML+RDFa
15:32:32 <Ralph> ... we should continue to evangelize
15:32:39 <msporny> scribenick: Ralph
15:32:41 <Steven> That sounds like an interest group
15:32:44 <Ralph> ... but also extending the notion of 'deployment'
15:32:58 <Ralph> ... maybe this does require a Group
15:33:25 <ShaneM> +1 for an interest group
15:34:06 <Ralph> Steven: Interest Groups are usually much lighter-weight
15:34:13 <ShaneM> q+ to discuss how we spread the word that this works in HTML
15:34:26 <Ralph> ... can write the charter to permit non-W3C Members to participate
15:34:34 <Ralph> ... an IG is not involved with producing specifications
15:34:48 <Ralph> Manu: I want to be sure that we can speak with some W3C authority when we talk with other communities
15:35:11 <Ralph> ... the microformats community does respect other standards
15:35:24 <Ralph> ... so it's important to be able to speak as a W3C standards group
15:35:38 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to discuss how we spread the word that this works in HTML
15:36:00 <Ralph> Shane: regardless of what we call the activity, it would be nice to have a way to spread the word that there's a way to use this with HTML; this is a 'today' problem
15:39:44 <ShaneM> To see my rant look at http://halindrome.blogsopt.com/
15:40:00 <ShaneM> s/blogsopt/blogspot/
15:41:18 <ShaneM> While we are not obligated to continue meeting, we have charter to do so through December 2008.
15:41:47 <Ralph> Topic: RDFa Parser Reserved Word Extension Mechanism
15:42:00 <Ralph> -> http://rdfa.info/wiki/RDFa_Vocabularies RDFa Vocabularies
15:42:13 <Ralph> Manu: Shane, Mark, and I have been looking at this idea recently
15:42:27 <Ralph> ... the idea is to be able to incorporate some microformat words
15:42:27 <msporny> http://rdfa.info/wiki/RDFa_Vocabularies
15:42:38 <ShaneM> total straw man proposal - nothing set in stone
15:42:49 <Ralph> ... we have an outline of a proposal
15:43:12 <Ralph> Mark: this hasn't just come up recently; it's been in the air for a long time
15:43:17 <Ralph> ... it's not just about microformats
15:43:31 <Ralph> ... it just happens that certain tweaks would make things easier for microformat folk
15:43:41 <Ralph> ... but it's really more about extending CURIEs rather than extending RDFa
15:43:46 <Ralph> ... we have to be careful not to skew this
15:43:47 <mcdave> mcdave has joined #rdfa
15:44:16 <Ralph> ... the way it's being proposed at the moment it sounds as though we're inviting lots of input from microformats community
15:44:37 <Ralph> ... it could sound like we're proposing to incorporate microformats and that's not what we're saying
15:44:50 <Ralph> ... the idea is to provide a mechanism for allowing people to use more unprefixed terms
15:45:05 <Ralph> ... that's sort-of what microformats does
15:45:20 <Ralph> ... the current idea is to provide a mechanism for others to define unprefixed values
15:45:23 <ShaneM> q+ to discuss how we present this idea
15:45:24 <Ralph> ... let's present it that way
15:45:45 <Ralph> ... and note that if you're a microformats person, this new mechanism looks a lot like microformats
15:46:30 <Ralph> Manu: agree, but we're also trying to win over the HTML5 community and the microformats community so let's no lose sight of that
15:46:58 <Ralph> ... do we need @prefix or does the @xmlns work expand to do this?
15:47:05 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to discuss how we present this idea
15:47:27 <Ralph> Shane: agree with Mark that there's not much new in this proposal
15:48:08 <Ralph> ... my immediate goal was just to write a page that speaks to the microformats people
15:48:24 <Steven> s/no lose/not lose/
15:48:26 <Ralph> ... in a presentation that would resonate with that community
15:49:59 <ShaneM> @prefix or @xmlns is just a way of defining a "prefix" property
15:50:13 <Ralph> Mark: I cited @@ an idea to flip CURIEs on their head
15:50:46 <Ralph> ... it occurred to me that if we were to say there is a substitution string X that _sometimes_ has a suffix
15:51:08 <Ralph> ... there would no longer be 'unprefixed' values; there would just be mappings to URIs
15:51:20 <Ralph> ... everything becomes a mapping, including @rel='next'
15:51:35 <Ralph> ... @rel='next' is currently a mapping because we have explicitly said so
15:51:54 <Steven> rel="alternate"
15:52:02 <ShaneM> A CURIE is a TOKEN - all TOKENs have mappings.  How those are established is...  magic?
15:52:03 <Steven> rel="alternate:stylesheet"
15:52:04 <Ralph> ... if we say 'x' and 'x:y' are both CURIEs then the mapping mechanism handles both
15:52:22 <Ralph> ... we'd still need to define how to declare mappings
15:53:18 <Ralph> ... connects to an older idea of Shane's to use this as a mechanism for defining vocabularies
15:53:23 <markbirbeck> rel="x"
15:53:35 <Ralph> ... consider CURIE as a substitution mechanism for substituting a longer string for a shorter one
15:53:37 <markbirbeck> x:y
15:53:54 <Ralph> ... a secondary feature is that ':' just means concatenation
15:54:09 <Steven> rel="alternate" rel="alternate:stylesheet"
15:54:14 <Ralph> ... this would be compatible with RDFa as RDFa only uses the x:y format
15:54:21 <markbirbeck> typeof="hcard"
15:54:39 <Ralph> ... and would make @typeof='hcard' not look like a hack
15:54:46 <Steven> I like it
15:55:01 <Ralph> Shane: I don't disagree but this looks like a mental model that's not inconsistent with the current model
15:55:35 <Ralph> ... in terms of the way CURIE is currently defined, these are unprefixed values
15:55:55 <Ralph> Mark: the spec currently enumerates a list of unprefixed values and says how to map them
15:56:04 <Ralph> Shane: only for RDFa+XHTML; no one else has reserved words
15:56:16 <Ralph> s/no one else/not for any other/
15:57:08 <Ralph> Ralph: the hard thing is for strings without ':' to come from several vocabularies
15:57:14 <markbirbeck> "A host language MAY interpret a reference value that is not preceded by a prefix and a colon as being a member of a host-language defined set of reserved values. Such reserved values MUST translate into an IRI, just as with any other CURIE."
15:57:28 <Ralph> Shane: this _can_ be viewed as a preprocessing step
15:58:12 <Ralph> Mark: what's missing from the current CURIE language is specification of a mechanism for getting new reserved values
15:58:47 <Ralph> ... I'd put the preprocessing language in with a view that we'd later have to resolve how to define new reserved words
15:59:23 <markbirbeck> xmlns:hcard="...."
15:59:33 <Ralph> ... my realization the other day is to think of x: as a mapping
15:59:34 <markbirbeck> typeof="hcard"
15:59:56 <Ralph> ... I think this simply works in our current processing model with just slight changes in CURIE
16:00:12 <Ralph> ... no pre-defined tokens; xmlns:hcard defines the token
16:00:40 <Ralph> Manu: so the mechanism we'd use to do this -- whether @xmlns or @prefix -- would lift out each of the current reserved tokens?
16:00:57 <Ralph> Mark: we've discussed a separate mechanism for adding to the predefined tokens
16:01:10 <markbirbeck> typeof="hcard:"
16:01:16 <Ralph> ... but if I do ...
16:01:39 <Ralph> ... folk would understand this as nearly what microformats currently does but with an ugly ':' on the end
16:01:52 <Ralph> ... it works with the _current_ processing model
16:01:56 <markbirbeck> "x:" "y"
16:02:01 <markbirbeck> "x" ":y"
16:02:25 <Ralph> ... so the mapping is defined even without a ':'
16:02:33 <Steven> that means we could preload foaf dc and so on
16:02:43 <Steven> as well
16:02:52 <markbirbeck> x a :b
16:03:12 <markbirbeck> xmlns:a="http://...type"
16:03:17 <markbirbeck> a:
16:03:22 <markbirbeck> a
16:03:35 <Steven> nice discussion
16:03:55 <Ralph> Mark: I suggest we discuss this in its own terms and not tie it so closely to microformats
16:04:09 <Ralph> ... looking at N3, essentially it's defining substitution tokens
16:04:39 <Ralph> ... I'll write this up in mail
16:04:40 <Zakim> -markbirbeck
16:04:41 <Zakim> -Steven
16:04:42 <Ralph> [adjourned]
16:04:43 <Zakim> -ShaneM
16:04:51 <Zakim> SW_SWD(RDFa)11:00AM has ended
16:04:53 <Zakim> Attendees were ShaneM, Ralph, msporny, Steven, +0208761aaaa, markbirbeck, +1.540.641.aabb
16:04:55 <Ralph> rrsagent, please draft minutes
16:04:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/09/04-rdfa-minutes.html Ralph
16:05:37 <Ralph> zakim, bye
16:05:37 <Zakim> Zakim has left #rdfa
16:09:02 <ShaneM> ShaneM has left #rdfa
16:19:15 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #rdfa
16:39:12 <asiches> asiches has joined #rdfa
16:42:00 <Ralph> PR is published
16:42:04 <Ralph> rrsagent, bye
16:42:04 <RRSAgent> I see no action items