IRC log of ua on 2008-08-28

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:55:01 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
17:55:01 [RRSAgent]
logging to
17:55:12 [AllanJ]
rrsagent, set logs public
17:55:31 [AllanJ]
zakim, this will be wai_u
17:55:31 [Zakim]
ok, AllanJ; I see WAI_UAWG()2:00PM scheduled to start in 5 minutes
17:57:38 [AllanJ]
title: UAWG conference call
17:57:39 [oedipus]
ok, but the one thing holding it up as far as process is concerned is the lack of the answer to the question: "how to signify that a keybinding has changed when the character which indicated the keybinding is no longer valid" and are looking everywhere for assistance in solving that problem, which is something we've addressed in the past
17:59:21 [AllanJ]
are you saying, the users keyboard does not have the author supplied key, so the UA makes a substitution, and how to communicate that to the user
17:59:54 [oedipus]
that as well as the scenario where a user has rebound the key, but would like reassurance and a reminder of the keybinding through some sort of indicator
18:00:34 [AllanJ]
yes that is an issue. It will come up when we discuss 4.1.10
18:00:41 [oedipus]
18:01:28 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()2:00PM has now started
18:01:35 [Zakim]
18:01:59 [Zakim]
18:02:23 [judy]
judy has joined #ua
18:02:31 [judy]
zakim, code?
18:02:31 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.117.370.6152), judy
18:03:01 [Zakim]
18:03:25 [Zakim]
18:03:39 [Jan]
Jan has joined #ua
18:03:41 [Zakim]
18:03:52 [AllanJ]
18:04:12 [oedipus]
zakim, [Microsoft] is Kelly_Ford
18:04:12 [Zakim]
+Kelly_Ford; got it
18:04:51 [oedipus]
zakim, who is here?
18:04:51 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Jeanne, allanj, Kelly_Ford, Gregory_Rosmaita, Judy
18:04:52 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Jan, judy, RRSAgent, Zakim, AllanJ, oedipus, trackbot
18:06:29 [KFord]
KFord has joined #ua
18:06:47 [oedipus]
18:06:54 [jeanne]
jeanne has joined #ua
18:07:14 [oedipus]
TOPIC: Administrivia
18:07:20 [oedipus]
JA: what is trackbot
18:08:11 [oedipus]
JS: result of an action item from several weeks ago - asked to set up tracking system for UAWG - done tuesday - trackbot looks for keywords, such as "ACTION: " and then assigns action to the person and a due date attached, with email to list
18:08:31 [oedipus]
JS: will pick up issues in subject lines on list which will be added to the issue or action item
18:09:07 [jeanne]
instructions for trackbot
18:09:34 [oedipus]
JS: more tightly integrated with mailing list agendas and IRC
18:09:49 [oedipus]
GJR: each person should be able to bookmark a "My Tracker" link
18:10:02 [oedipus]
regrets: MarkH
18:10:12 [jeanne]
The main page for Tracker is
18:10:16 [oedipus]
JA: haven't heard from alanC -
18:10:22 [jeanne]
zakim, who is here?
18:10:22 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Jeanne, allanj, Kelly_Ford, Gregory_Rosmaita, Judy
18:10:23 [Zakim]
On IRC I see jeanne, KFord, Jan, judy, RRSAgent, Zakim, AllanJ, oedipus, trackbot
18:10:40 [oedipus]
JA: agenda - finish GL 4.1
18:10:48 [oedipus]
JB: discussion last week?
18:10:55 [oedipus]
JA: great success
18:11:07 [oedipus]
JA: leftovers are action items that had to be re-branched
18:11:34 [oedipus]
JA: 4 action items to deal with - hopefully resolve last 4 things had issue with last week, and then 4.1 issues and 3 more SCs
18:12:01 [oedipus]
JB: circulation for feedback to browser devs who haven't shown up as regularly
18:12:08 [oedipus]
JA: send to them individually?
18:12:26 [oedipus]
JB: relook into it today - may be better to get draft published first and then have people review that
18:12:45 [oedipus]
JS: Kelly had action to ping Microsoft employees, and he reported back on that on-list
18:13:05 [oedipus]
JB: need to ensure getting perspective of developers
18:13:43 [oedipus]
TOPIC: JA's Action Item to update 4.1.9
18:13:43 [Zakim]
18:14:24 [oedipus]
JA: got a bit confused - tried to update and rewrite - update is 4.1.9 re-writen and put into 4.1.2 so should be tabled and all comments ported to 4.1.10
18:14:32 [Jan]
zakim, ??P15 is really Jan
18:14:32 [Zakim]
+Jan; got it
18:15:06 [oedipus]
JA: 4.1.9 - precedence of keyboard processing discussed last week; haven't decided anything about user configuration and persistence that belong to 4.1.10
18:15:27 [oedipus]
JA: reviewed lots of discussion and minutes and discovered that 4.1.9 had been rewritten and included in 4.1.2
18:15:35 [oedipus]
JB: so unintended redundancy
18:15:43 [oedipus]
JA: caught and fused last week
18:15:52 [oedipus]
JB: today examine in purer form
18:16:08 [oedipus]
JA: voted and approved 4.1.2 last week - remove 4.1.9
18:16:13 [oedipus]
JB: objections?
18:16:14 [oedipus]
KF: no
18:16:17 [oedipus]
JA: no
18:16:18 [oedipus]
GJR: no
18:16:25 [oedipus]
JB: JA, you are sure is covered?
18:16:28 [oedipus]
JA: yes
18:16:32 [oedipus]
JB: remove it then
18:16:47 [oedipus]
RESOLVED: Remove redundant 4.1.9
18:17:21 [oedipus]
proposed ACTION: Jeanne - remove redundant 4.1.9
18:17:29 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:17:29 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
18:17:38 [oedipus]
JA: JR to review 4.5
18:17:41 [jeanne]
ACTION: JS will update the 4.1 Guidelines to remove 4.1.9
18:17:41 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-1 - Will update the 4.1 Guidelines to remove 4.1.9 [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2008-09-04].
18:17:42 [oedipus]
JR: 4.1.5
18:17:50 [oedipus]
TOPIC: JR Review of 4.1.5
18:18:11 [AllanJ]
18:18:14 [oedipus]
JR: sent post to list; concern last week was that was too difficult to read; tried to simplify -
18:18:29 [oedipus]
JR: quotes from post cited directly above
18:18:43 [oedipus]
JR: concern too visually oriented so used "display"
18:19:05 [oedipus]
JR: not thrilled with mashing together chrome/UI keyboard commands with others
18:19:29 [oedipus]
JR: bothers me because standard in windows to display keyboard commands for UI, but not standard to display keyboard commands in content
18:19:53 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:19:53 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
18:20:05 [oedipus]
JA: 2 that said same thing - 1 for content, 1 for UI - merged them
18:20:15 [oedipus]
JA: comments?
18:20:24 [oedipus]
JB: what would liked def of recognized say?
18:20:53 [oedipus]
JR: differentiate HTML controls with control done in AJAX that grabs keyboard shortcuts and UA doesn't know it is doing that
18:20:58 [oedipus]
JB: plain english version?
18:21:19 [oedipus]
JA: use "recognize" in many checkpoints - issue: what UA knows about and what UA doesn't know about;
18:21:33 [oedipus]
JA: in UAAG 1.0 whole set of events that UA doesn't know about
18:21:49 [oedipus]
JR: "recognized" is term in UAAG1 - didn't uniformly apply term where needed to be applied
18:22:20 [oedipus]
18:22:49 [oedipus]
JA: 2 issues: JR did his tersification - have that to decide; JR also raised concern over conflation of issues (UI and content in same gl)
18:23:33 [oedipus]
JB: looking through what was dropped - "close proximity" "presentation" - "display with associated controls" a VERY good improvement - more understandable
18:23:48 [oedipus]
JB: no problem tying together aviable UI and content controls - willing to await feedback
18:24:39 [Jan]
18:24:46 [oedipus]
JB: concern: easily discoverable with AT is ok, but able to be activated with single keystroke might be that one has to jump through 3 hoops to do that - what is history of dropping able to be activated with single keystroke? too extreme for developers?
18:25:06 [oedipus]
JB: happy that abandoning note verbiage - seems gratuitous and over-proscriptive
18:25:26 [oedipus]
JB: able to be activated with single keystroke - nothing about "readily activatable" in this
18:26:06 [oedipus]
JR: dropped "single keystroke" because overly proscriptive - if UA has setting ok, but not always the case - let UA set options the way they set options
18:26:14 [oedipus]
JB: having problem parsing JR's comment
18:26:42 [oedipus]
JR: throughout doc say "users have option for x" - can mean go into mode or go into Tools > Options > Accessibility and turn a11y options on
18:26:52 [oedipus]
JB: understand JR's point now
18:26:56 [oedipus]
JA: kelly?
18:27:05 [oedipus]
KF: listening mode right now
18:27:12 [Jan]
18:27:16 [oedipus]
JB: no other issues with provisions
18:27:46 [oedipus]
JS: alright with that - how does play out for speech input user? a bit of concern, but think would be fine
18:28:33 [oedipus]
JA: straw poll to see if ok with JR's wording - "user has the option to have direct keyboard command displayed..."
18:28:42 [AllanJ]
4.1.5 User has the option to have any *recognized* direct keyboard
18:28:43 [AllanJ]
commands displayed with their associated controls.
18:28:46 [oedipus]
JB: tersification and simplification desireable
18:28:57 [oedipus]
JS: like it
18:29:02 [AllanJ]
18:29:04 [oedipus]
JB: is understandable
18:29:10 [oedipus]
JA: nicely done, jan
18:29:14 [jeanne]
18:29:15 [KFord]
good stuff.
18:29:15 [oedipus]
KF: good
18:29:18 [oedipus]
GJR: plus 1
18:29:38 [oedipus]
JA: send to access board - key thing stuck on last year
18:29:51 [oedipus]
RESOLVED: accept JR's verbiage for 4.1.5
18:30:03 [oedipus]
TOPIC: Review of 4.1 and 4.7u
18:30:09 [oedipus]
18:30:17 [jeanne]
ACTION: JS Update 4.1 to include the wording above for 4.1.5
18:30:17 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2 - Update 4.1 to include the wording above for 4.1.5 [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2008-09-04].
18:30:22 [oedipus]
KF: how to consolidate and whether to consolidate
18:30:45 [oedipus]
KF: think we need them both in the end, because they serve 2 separate purposes
18:31:01 [oedipus]
KF: 4.1 says "do everything from keyboard" but doesn't say needs to be discoverable from kbd
18:31:14 [oedipus]
KF: 4.7 is about discoverability
18:31:32 [oedipus]
KF: 4.1.1 could end up with UA with hotkeys but no discoverability method
18:31:40 [oedipus]
JA: interesting...
18:31:53 [oedipus]
KF: did a deep data dive - may be changing former opinioin
18:32:24 [oedipus]
JA: had action item in july to review 4.1.1, 4.1.6 and 4.1.7 -- at time, decided that 4.1.7 handled by 4.1.1 so should be removed
18:32:43 [oedipus]
JR: talked about 4.1.7 last week - important notification as kelly said
18:32:53 [oedipus]
JA: question is: are we fine in leaving it?
18:32:55 [oedipus]
KF: yes
18:32:56 [oedipus]
JR: yes
18:33:03 [oedipus]
JA: plus 1
18:33:04 [jeanne]
18:33:07 [oedipus]
GJR: plus 1
18:33:13 [oedipus]
JA: good distinction
18:33:33 [oedipus]
JB: need to see everything in context to declare opinion
18:33:35 [AllanJ]
status document
18:33:53 [oedipus]
JB: today's stuff not available in context, but only as individual bits to consider
18:34:23 [oedipus]
JA: status document from last week - what i've been able to pull out of all agenda and action items, etc. - here was wording, here is status, for 4.1
18:34:53 [oedipus]
JA: come full circle - remove 4.1.7 because included, but issues raised last week, KF reviewed and presented arguments as to why to include
18:35:25 [oedipus]
JS: rather than keep with different title - would clarify 2 are related if state 4.1.1 keyboard operation and 4.1.7 keyboard operations enhanced
18:35:46 [oedipus]
JR: only problem is when WCAG uses "enhanced" spread over A and double-A, but like the idea -
18:35:55 [oedipus]
JS: keyboard operation navigation?
18:36:02 [oedipus]
KF: keyboard navigation, full stop
18:36:19 [oedipus]
JA: operation in 4.1.1, in 4.1.7 granular - specifically keyboard navigation
18:36:27 [oedipus]
GJR: plus 1
18:36:47 [jeanne]
18:36:52 [AllanJ]
18:36:53 [oedipus]
JA: do we change name from UI interface navigation to keyboard navigation and leave text as is?
18:36:57 [oedipus]
GJR: plus 1
18:37:17 [AllanJ]
4.1.7 Keyboard Navigation: The user can use the keyboard to traverse all of the controls forwards and backwards, including controls in floating toolbars, panels, and user agent extensions using the navigation conventions of the platform (e.g., via "tab", "shift-tab", etc. ")
18:38:04 [oedipus]
JB: review what we have: 4.1 - ensure full keyboard access; 4.1.1 is keyboard operation; 4.1.2 lacks a title; 4.1.3 no keyboard trap; 4.1.4 separate presentation, 4.1.5. UA keyboard commands; 4.1.x. content-derived keyboard commands; 4.1.6 conventions, 4.1.7 navigation
18:38:24 [oedipus]
JB: problem: no consistency in structure/syntax for these items - most noun phrases, some verbs
18:38:49 [oedipus]
JB: no real objections at this point, but will need to align titling in document when more stability
18:38:49 [jeanne]
4.1.7 Keyboard Navigation: The user can use the keyboard to traverse all of the controls forwards and backwards, including controls in floating toolbars, panels, and user agent extensions using the navigation conventions of the platform (e.g., via "tab", "shift-tab", etc. ")
18:39:04 [oedipus]
JB: no objections to keyboard navigation for 4.1.7
18:39:19 [oedipus]
JR: going to get new version of this reflecting last week's and this week's decisions
18:39:22 [oedipus]
JA: will do that
18:39:27 [oedipus]
JS: i will update them all
18:39:37 [oedipus]
18:39:51 [oedipus]
TOPIC: 4.1.8
18:40:04 [jeanne]
ACTION: JS Updates 4.1 Guideline to include new wording for 4.1.7
18:40:04 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-3 - Updates 4.1 Guideline to include new wording for 4.1.7 [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2008-09-04].
18:40:07 [KFord]
4.1.8 Direct keyboard commands in the form of single key access with or without modifiers are provided to use primary user agent functionality for the following classes of operations where the user agent offers such functionality and the operating environment supports appropriate keybord access:
18:40:07 [KFord]
(a) navigation related functions (e.g., back/forward within the user navigation history for the current browsing session, enter a URI for a new resource, stop/refresh the loading of a resource, etc.) (b) display-related functions (e.g., increase/decrease text size, volume, etc.) (c) content related functions (move focus to next/previous enabled element in document order, activate the content item with focus, scroll the viewed content by a measure appropriate to the
18:40:07 [oedipus]
JS: resolved to update list for 4.1.7
18:40:25 [AllanJ]
link for 4.1.8
18:40:26 [oedipus]
RESOLVED: update 4.1.7
18:40:40 [oedipus]
KF: 4.1.8 listed very specific features
18:40:49 [oedipus]
KF: new version broke down, but didn't list features
18:41:14 [oedipus]
KF: revised further to break into different classes of features some of which are already there, some of which i added
18:41:35 [oedipus]
KF: there are a few different classes of things one can do with UA - attempt to reflect that; would include all definitions
18:41:45 [oedipus]
KF: is this finished, or still half-baked?
18:42:06 [oedipus]
JR: getting pretty detailed - but not sure catching everything
18:42:25 [oedipus]
JR: if media player, play stop and fast forward should be covered, but am not sure if falls under navigation
18:42:32 [oedipus]
JA: still cogitating
18:42:40 [oedipus]
GJR: trying to cogitate
18:42:58 [oedipus]
KF: if you have something important to do in UA, ensure easy to do in UA with one keystrok
18:43:11 [oedipus]
KF: quantifying what is important in UA is key factor, then
18:43:32 [oedipus]
JS: like what KF has done; grouped well but left open for different types of UAs is big improvement over list
18:44:04 [oedipus]
KF: question for UA is: control of display of information - am i missing other interactive classes?
18:45:14 [oedipus]
JR: wondering if trying to be specific on intervention classes is too inclusive may miss one, but if we keep high-level, the essence is single key access which is making things quick to get to; if offer mouse way of moving, but not keyboard way, have to explain why not
18:45:37 [oedipus]
KF: impossible - mouse is freeform - can't have single key access to all mouse functionalities
18:45:52 [oedipus]
KF: better not be more than 3 or 4 keystrokes at worse - what are highest profile things one can do
18:46:30 [oedipus]
JB: back up a bit - enumeration of classes important, but first need to remove some unecessary text in draft provision itself - hard to evaluate base requirement
18:46:47 [oedipus]
JB: want to read through the wording suggested by KF word by word an suggest changes
18:46:49 [oedipus]
KF: sure
18:46:58 [oedipus]
JB: starting at top of provision
18:47:28 [oedipus]
JB: 4.1.8 - needs a short handle - direct keyboard commands probably works, but possible that direct keyboard commands may not be as self-evident as we hope
18:47:45 [oedipus]
JB: single key access: requires only a single keystroke?
18:47:52 [oedipus]
KF: or one modifier key
18:48:11 [oedipus]
JB: wanted to toss with or without modifiers, but without it, single key access will be misunderstood
18:48:23 [oedipus]
JB: agree can't drop with or without modifiers
18:48:26 [oedipus]
GJR: agree
18:48:29 [oedipus]
JA: agree
18:48:47 [Jan]
q+ we used to say "key-plus-modifier-key (or single-key)"
18:48:49 [oedipus]
JB: guess is that phrase "with or without modifiers" could be phrases more clearly
18:49:48 [oedipus]
JB: streamline intro to classes -- qualified several ways, but not at level of parsimonious elegance that JR achieved in 4.1.5 -- conceptually has right stuff, but needs wordsmithing
18:50:09 [oedipus]
18:50:13 [Jan]
18:50:32 [oedipus]
JB: still a stage away from geting to most essential comments as parsimoniously as possible
18:50:45 [KFord]
18:50:50 [oedipus]
JB: take what KF has distilled down to another level, then return to clases of operation
18:51:10 [oedipus]
JR: we used to say "key-plus-modifier-key (or single-key)"
18:51:27 [oedipus]
JB: that's a mouthful and mindful - might do better
18:51:40 [oedipus]
ack Jan
18:51:43 [oedipus]
ack KFord
18:52:20 [oedipus]
KF: build up - start at zero and build up definition; zero starting point is "important UA functions have to be achievable in one keystroke" -- that is core
18:52:35 [oedipus]
JB: important keyboard functions need to be done with one keystroke
18:52:55 [oedipus]
JB: important command functions or keyboard functions?
18:52:59 [oedipus]
KF: command functions
18:53:15 [oedipus]
JB: essence is: "important command functions" - could be handle
18:53:41 [AllanJ]
Important keyboard commands. Primary user agent operations are operable with a single keystroke.
18:53:55 [oedipus]
JB: are modifiers always a key?
18:53:59 [oedipus]
KF: believe so
18:54:13 [oedipus]
JB: actually, sticky keys is a mode, so modifier isn't right
18:54:22 [oedipus]
JA: using stickyKeys to do modifier combo
18:54:32 [oedipus]
JB: set mode and then that mode is default mode for duration
18:55:02 [oedipus]
JB: "important command functions should be available via a single keystroke with or without a modifier"
18:55:13 [oedipus]
KF: could break modifier in own section
18:55:26 [oedipus]
JB: important command functions should be available via single keystroke
18:55:31 [oedipus]
JB: put rest in not
18:55:34 [oedipus]
18:55:57 [oedipus]
JB: what lost: modifiers, primary user agent functionality for following class of operations....
18:56:27 [oedipus]
JB: where the user agent provides such functionality - second qualifier is "can do if we can"
18:56:43 [oedipus]
JA: nod toward devices with limited keypads (mobile numbers only)
18:56:49 [oedipus]
JB: might be better addressed as note
18:57:13 [oedipus]
JB: just have one long note and covers 3 things at least but with a simple elegant requirement statement
18:57:42 [KFord]
18:57:42 [jeanne]
Important Command Functions: Important Command Functions are available in a single keystroke
18:57:46 [oedipus]
JR: different classes could go into techique - which are your important commands; what are intended classes
18:57:49 [oedipus]
JA: would be good
18:57:56 [oedipus]
JB: look at classes 1 by 1
18:58:07 [oedipus]
JR: dropping operating environment?
18:58:38 [oedipus]
JB: put in note with an example at least instead of general statement - "for instance, the operating environment of a mobile phone may not allow...."
18:58:45 [oedipus]
JR: definition of keystroke
18:58:56 [oedipus]
GJR: check latest access module draft for language
18:59:21 [oedipus]
JB: classes of operations - bear in mind may end up in techniques or note
18:59:45 [oedipus]
JB: first is a substantive class - are all examples necessary?
18:59:52 [oedipus]
JR: great explanation for techniques
19:00:02 [oedipus]
JB: "b) display related functions"
19:00:26 [oedipus]
JB: could be that the note would contain the generic / abstract categories, and examples coupled with techniques
19:00:33 [oedipus]
JB: c) content related functions
19:00:43 [oedipus]
JB: d) information related functions
19:00:47 [oedipus]
JB: interesting distinction
19:01:38 [oedipus]
KF: rationale: usually read content, but increasingly UAs have facilities for managing info - favorites, rrs subscriptions, FF "awesome bar" - similar feature in IE8; UAs starting to add a lot of information management controls
19:01:48 [oedipus]
JB: call them information management features?
19:02:27 [oedipus]
JB: what is diff between content and information - nothing from terms juxtaposed unless for examples following - if use "information management functions"
19:02:28 [jeanne]
19:02:45 [oedipus]
RESOLVED: change point d0 to "information management functions"
19:02:51 [Jan]
19:03:00 [oedipus]
JB: state "this is a non-exhaustive list of functions"
19:03:09 [oedipus]
ack KFord
19:03:12 [oedipus]
ack Jan
19:03:22 [oedipus]
JR: what if grab headers and use them in an e.g. clause
19:03:55 [oedipus]
JR: important command functions (e.g. content related, information management functions, etc.) then push rest to techniques
19:04:03 [oedipus]
JB: built-into provision, not note?
19:04:06 [oedipus]
JR: yes
19:04:33 [oedipus]
JB: "imporant command functions (e.g. [...])" - what do people think?
19:04:52 [oedipus]
GJR: like e.g. clause solution advanced by jan
19:04:57 [oedipus]
JS: how would we test it?
19:05:17 [oedipus]
JS: as long as leaving it up to the developer to say what is important, is very successful,but need to keep that in mind
19:05:21 [AllanJ]
Important Command Functions: Important Command Functions (e.g. navigation related functions, display-related functions, content related functions, information management related functions) are available in a single keystroke
19:05:39 [oedipus]
JR: maybe not all 4 in the e.g. clause
19:05:50 [oedipus]
JB: friendly ammendment -
19:06:36 [oedipus]
chair: Jim
19:06:44 [AllanJ]
Important Command Functions: Important Command Functions (e.g. related to navigation, display, content, and information management) are available in a single keystroke
19:06:48 [oedipus]
meeting: User Agent Weekly Teleconference
19:06:59 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:06:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
19:07:06 [judy]
Important command functions: Important command functions (e.g. navigation-related, display-related, content-related, information-management) are available in a single keystroke.
19:07:22 [oedipus]
JB: wiped out capitalization
19:07:38 [oedipus]
JB: status review should be capitalized, but not after that
19:07:57 [oedipus]
JB: JA's much more graceful
19:08:18 [oedipus]
JA: then can comma etc. - to achieve balance and cover a host of evils
19:08:31 [judy]
Important Command Functions: Important command functions (e.g. related to navigation, display, content, information management, etc.) are available in a single keystroke.
19:08:49 [Jan]
19:08:52 [AllanJ]
19:08:54 [KFord]
I like.
19:08:55 [oedipus]
GJR: plus 1
19:09:00 [judy]
19:09:18 [jeanne]
19:10:23 [jeanne]
ACTION: JS to update 4.1 Guidelines to add wording for 4.1.9 Important Command Functions: Important command functions (e.g. related to navigation, display, content, information management, etc.) are available in a single keystroke.
19:10:23 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-4 - Update 4.1 Guidelines to add wording for 4.1.9 Important Command Functions: Important command functions (e.g. related to navigation, display, content, information management, etc.) are available in a single keystroke. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2008-09-04].
19:10:38 [AllanJ]
Topic: review 4.1.10
19:11:15 [oedipus]
proposed RESOLUTION: definition of Important Command Functions: Important command functions are available in a single keystroke; e.g., related to navigation, display, content, information management, etc.
19:11:59 [AllanJ]
new - 4.1.10 User Override of Keyboard Commands: The user can override any keyboard shortcut binding that is part of the user agent default input configuration except for conventional bindings for the operating environment (e.g., for access to help). The keyboard combinations offered for rebinding include single key and key plus modifier keys if these are available in the operating environment.
19:12:18 [oedipus]
proposed RESOLUTION for 4.1.9: definition of "Important Command Functions" Important Command Functions: Important command functions are available in a single keystroke; e.g., related to navigation, display, content, information management, etc.
19:12:35 [oedipus]
JA: split 4.1.10 into 2 to avoid confusion
19:12:55 [oedipus]
JA: first part is easy (overriding user interface) - opera does well
19:13:09 [oedipus]
JA: several issues arise with overriding content function like access key
19:13:40 [oedipus]
JA: 2 situations: author uses accented character as accesskey, not available on keyboard, so UA remaps - how does user know?
19:14:03 [oedipus]
JA: second: if user rebinds keybindings, how does user get notification of previo;usly made changes
19:14:13 [oedipus]
KF: and what if author has changed keys so remapping now moot
19:14:22 [oedipus]
JB: essence of what we are trying to say?
19:14:36 [oedipus]
JB: don't think essence is user-override but user notification and control
19:14:58 [oedipus]
JR: override is part of it
19:15:08 [oedipus]
JB: yes, part of it, but what is abosulte reduction?
19:15:19 [oedipus]
JR: person who can only use part of keyboard
19:15:38 [oedipus]
GJR: limit to homerow a use case
19:15:52 [oedipus]
JB: only part of it - what is available and what was used last
19:16:19 [oedipus]
JS: another aspect - screen reader users to remap key so doesn't conflict with AT command frequently invoked with keybinding
19:16:45 [oedipus]
GJR: discoverability and notification when there is NOT an AT being used is important
19:16:56 [oedipus]
JB: split help or hurt?
19:17:01 [oedipus]
JA: helps
19:17:10 [oedipus]
JA: 1 is a lot easeir to do than the other
19:17:25 [oedipus]
KF: second one is almost undoable - doable, but fraught with complications
19:17:33 [oedipus]
JB: how important is it?
19:17:47 [oedipus]
JB: user can override any author provided keybinding....
19:17:55 [oedipus]
JB: way to change req so more doable?
19:18:20 [oedipus]
JB: if more doable, could be conflated - have it or not, regardless of source
19:18:29 [AllanJ]
19:18:30 [AllanJ]
1. user needs to know the current keybinding
19:18:31 [oedipus]
KF: why should UA override author
19:18:32 [AllanJ]
2. user need to remap to avoid conflict, fill personal need
19:18:33 [AllanJ]
3. recall remap
19:18:35 [AllanJ]
4. ??what happens when content changes
19:18:39 [oedipus]
GJR: author proposes, user disposes
19:18:57 [oedipus]
GJR: notes this has been addressed in Access Module
19:19:19 [oedipus]
GJR: new wording explicitly states that the key is an abstraction and is only a suggestion of the author
19:19:40 [oedipus]
JA: if define accesskey binding that doesn't exist on user's hardware, what to do?
19:19:55 [oedipus]
JR: do we really mean users need to be able to do on site by site basis
19:20:16 [oedipus]
JR: users can disallow certain keys that pose problems - no accented keys allowed as configuration
19:20:33 [oedipus]
s/as configuration/as configuration setting
19:20:53 [oedipus]
JB: override is part of issue, but is it muddying issue by advancing solution rather than stating problem
19:21:11 [oedipus]
JB: problem is 1) know what is happening and 2) how to exert control over it
19:21:36 [oedipus]
GJR: suggest we re-examine latest Access Module draft wording
19:21:53 [oedipus]
19:22:09 [oedipus]
19:22:14 [oedipus]
19:22:18 [oedipus]
19:22:23 [oedipus]
19:22:27 [oedipus]
19:22:48 [oedipus]
"This attribute assigns one or more key mappings to an access shortcut. The value of is attribute is one or more single characters from the document character set."
19:23:42 [oedipus]
"The key attribute represents an abstraction. The use of the name "key" for this attribute is historical and does not mean that there is any association with a specific "key" on a keyboard, per se. It is up to the user agent to provide a mechanism for mapping the document character set value(s) of the attribute to the input methods available to the user agent. For instance, on some systems a user may have to press an "alt" or "cmd" key in addition to the access
19:23:52 [oedipus]
JR: conflicts with what i was stating
19:24:05 [oedipus]
19:24:21 [oedipus]
"A user entering any of the keys defined in an access element moves focus from its current position to the next element in navigation order that has one of the referenced role or id values (see activate for information on how the element may be activated). Note that it is possible to deliver alternate events via [XMLEVENTS]. Note also that the concept of navigation order is a property of the Host Language, and is not defined in this specification."
19:24:33 [oedipus]
"User agents MUST provide mechanisms for overriding the author setting with user-specified settings in order to ensure that the act of moving content focus does not cause the user agent to take any further action, as required by UAAG 1.0, Checkpoint 9.5. [UAAG1] The character assigned to a key, and its relationship to a role or id attribute SHOULD be treated as an author suggestion. User agents MAY override any key assignment (e.g., if an assignment interferes w
19:24:47 [oedipus]
JS: spoken keyboard commands standardized by an AT
19:25:29 [oedipus]
JR: assess keyboard options - which are your most prefered, less preferred, disallowed; in speech recognizition scenario, have the prefered keys used for remapping
19:26:09 [oedipus]
JA: crux is: UA says i've remapped all these keys - how does it inform the user, when all it knows is assign keystroke to some function on page, but UA can only say "you only have these keys avaiable to you"
19:26:22 [oedipus]
JR: handled in 4.1.5 - "have to display direct keyboard commands"
19:26:24 [oedipus]
19:26:26 [oedipus]
19:27:46 [oedipus]
ack me
19:27:52 [oedipus]
JR: in 4.1.5 say:
19:27:57 [AllanJ]
GJR: concern. if a key is remapped. no matter who remapped. how does UA communicate to the user that the key changed, for which the labeling information has not been defined
19:28:28 [oedipus]
JR: "user has option..." -- doesn't happen now, but asking UA to put in - floating label or status line message associated with control
19:28:35 [oedipus]
KF: have to leave now, sorry
19:28:57 [Zakim]
19:29:40 [oedipus]
GJR: very important when considering users who are not using AT, but need notificatiion or are using native accessibility features of UA (zooming)
19:30:42 [oedipus]
JA: reached end of our time - can some of us go futher
19:30:56 [oedipus]
JB: figure out next steps towards zeroing in
19:31:48 [oedipus]
ACTION: JR to propose new wording for 4.1.10 and 4.1.11
19:31:48 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-5 - Propose new wording for 4.1.10 and 4.1.11 [on Jan Richards - due 2008-09-04].
19:32:05 [oedipus]
ACTION: Gregory - post Access Module concerns to UA list
19:32:05 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-6 - - post Access Module concerns to UA list [on Gregory Rosmaita - due 2008-09-04].
19:32:17 [oedipus]
regrets: Alan
19:32:29 [oedipus]
JA: AlanC will be unavailable for a while
19:32:44 [oedipus]
regrets+ Simon_Harper
19:32:56 [oedipus]
JA: will be out the next 2 weeks
19:33:01 [oedipus]
WG: good luck jim
19:33:04 [Zakim]
19:33:16 [oedipus]
zakim, please part
19:33:16 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were Jeanne, allanj, Gregory_Rosmaita, Judy, Kelly_Ford, Jan
19:33:16 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
19:33:28 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:33:28 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
19:33:42 [judy]
zakim, who's here?
19:34:42 [oedipus]
regrets+ MarkH
19:34:46 [oedipus]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:34:46 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate oedipus
19:35:56 [oedipus]
rrsagent, please part
19:35:56 [RRSAgent]
I see 6 open action items saved in :
19:35:56 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JS will update the 4.1 Guidelines to remove 4.1.9 [1]
19:35:56 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
19:35:56 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JS Update 4.1 to include the wording above for 4.1.5 [2]
19:35:56 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
19:35:56 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JS Updates 4.1 Guideline to include new wording for 4.1.7 [3]
19:35:56 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
19:35:56 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JS to update 4.1 Guidelines to add wording for 4.1.9 Important Command Functions: Important command functions (e.g. related to navigation, display, content, information management, etc.) are available in a single keystroke. [4]
19:35:56 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
19:35:56 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: JR to propose new wording for 4.1.10 and 4.1.11 [5]
19:35:56 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
19:35:56 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Gregory - post Access Module concerns to UA list [6]
19:35:56 [RRSAgent]
recorded in