13:42:56 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #xhtml
13:42:56 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/08/27-xhtml-irc
13:42:58 <Steven> zakim, this will be xhtml
13:42:58 <Zakim> ok, Steven; I see IA_XHTML2()9:45AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
13:43:03 <Steven> too soon
13:43:05 <Steven> ha
13:43:11 <Steven> rrsagent, make log public
13:43:43 <Steven> Meeting: Weekly XHTML2 WG Teleconference
13:44:15 <Steven> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Aug/0046
13:44:21 <Steven> Steven has changed the topic to: Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Aug/0046
13:44:27 <Steven> Chair: Steven
13:44:43 <Steven> Previous: http://www.w3.org/2008/08/20-xhtml-minutes
13:44:56 <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()9:45AM has now started
13:45:03 <Zakim> +Gregory_Rosmaita
13:45:17 <ShaneM> ShaneM has joined #xhtml
13:45:26 <Steven> Please Gregory!
13:45:28 <Zakim> + +04670855aaaa
13:45:36 <oedipus> Scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
13:45:39 <oedipus> ScribeNick: oedipus
13:46:12 <Zakim> +McCarron
13:46:22 <ShaneM> zakim, McCarron is ShaneM
13:46:22 <Zakim> +ShaneM; got it
13:46:24 <oedipus> happy man ray day!  and happy REAL president's day (it's a great way to improve your sax life)! http://www.hicom.net/~oedipus/obfuscation.html#august27
13:46:41 <oedipus> regrets: Roland
13:46:47 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
13:46:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/27-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
13:47:23 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
13:47:23 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
13:47:25 <Zakim> +Steven
13:47:44 <Steven> zakim, who is here?
13:47:44 <Zakim> On the phone I see Gregory_Rosmaita, +04670855aaaa, ShaneM, Steven
13:47:45 <Zakim> On IRC I see ShaneM, RRSAgent, Zakim, Steven, oedipus, Tina
13:47:47 <oedipus> TOPIC: Announcements & News
13:47:57 <Steven> zakim, aaaa is Tina
13:47:57 <Zakim> +Tina; got it
13:48:05 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
13:48:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/27-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
13:49:26 <oedipus> TP Registration - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Aug/0000.html
13:49:37 <oedipus> SP: may add TAG discussion to agenda
13:50:14 <oedipus> SP: issues surrounding TPAC2008 - TP Day, call for presentations, etc.
13:50:40 <oedipus> Outstanding Reviews: MarkB - review XSD 1.1 - Due: 2008-09-12
13:51:01 <oedipus> TOPIC: XSD 1.1, ancestors and input
13:51:05 <Steven> zakim, who is noisy?
13:51:08 <oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2008Aug/0044.html
13:51:20 <Zakim> Steven, listening for 15 seconds I heard sound from the following: Tina (19%), ShaneM (2%)
13:52:24 <oedipus> SP: how many coming to tech plenary - asked to co-chair presentations and lightning talks - if have any, let me know
13:52:39 <oedipus> SP: review of XSD 1.1 due mid-september
13:52:57 <oedipus> SP: had request from XSD WG member, asking for opinion on XSD 1.1
13:53:01 <Zakim> +ShaneM.a
13:53:05 <Zakim> -ShaneM
13:53:12 <oedipus> SP: added assertions to schemas - 
13:53:23 <ShaneM> zakim, ShaneM.a is ShaneM
13:53:23 <Zakim> +ShaneM; got it
13:53:43 <oedipus> SP: schematron allows one to say almost anything about an element and relationship to other elements; in XSD only judge element by children, not by parents
13:54:06 <oedipus> SP: in most cases that is fine, but not in XHTML and HTML input elements which are children of the FORM element
13:54:18 <oedipus> SP: XSD cannot say this element is a child of this other element
13:54:59 <oedipus> SP: thought of hack to HEAD element - number of INPUT elements that are part of FORM element, but that is putting restriction on BODY element - can only be valid if number of input elements are the same as in xform
13:56:03 <oedipus> SP: what is requested is what we say in prose; do we need to do anything else?
13:56:22 <oedipus> SM: is XML Schema a long-interim strategy for w3c?
13:56:31 <Steven> zakim, mute tina
13:56:31 <Zakim> Tina should now be muted
13:56:57 <oedipus> SM: synchronization with w3c long term strategy
13:57:24 <oedipus> SP: think can expect Schema something W3C officially supports
13:57:30 <oedipus> SM: in that case, we need this capability
13:57:41 <oedipus> SM: need not just for INPUT
13:58:00 <oedipus> SP: nested A works with children - can say number of child elements A zero
13:58:09 <oedipus> SP: in that case we are covered
13:58:37 <oedipus> SP: disallowing something as child is easy, but ensuring / requiring things be a child of something else have to go in other way in general
13:59:05 <oedipus> SP: M12n where it really matters - don't know if have BODY element on which to put restriction - can't put restriction on BODY unless know about forms
13:59:14 <oedipus> SM: really good point - has nothing to do with xforms
14:00:01 <oedipus> SP: a bit much putting it on our shoulders - think is valid use case; don't know why schema people want to allow this; when explanation advanced, not yet convinced
14:00:38 <oedipus> SP: XHTML example of where this happens - no good way of doing it, should allow - but is this an issue we want to highlight or comment upon?  can only define things in english prose
14:01:12 <oedipus> SP: attempt to rework relationship with schema people
14:01:35 <oedipus> SM: fundamental problem - redefine doesn't allow an element in more than one group, so can't use?  why the restriction? 
14:02:51 <oedipus> SP: don't feel that strongly about issue - XSD people are set on an internal roadmap they are closely adhering to, don't know if worth arguing the point, but can make comment about this in review of XSD, but don't want to make fuss about it
14:03:24 <oedipus> SP: there is a counter-argument to "save" XSD as well
14:03:41 <oedipus> SP: too bad markB isn't here
14:04:03 <oedipus> SM: should make comment about it - not something to formally object to - make that clear in communication
14:04:20 <oedipus> SM: XSD limitations make use cases less urgent to me
14:05:04 <oedipus> SP: any other opinions?
14:05:13 <oedipus> GJR: no - PF is also reviewing XSD
14:06:56 <oedipus> TOPIC: MimeTypes
14:08:22 <oedipus> SP: was discussion about this in another forum; i18n people learnt of our opinion that XHTML should be deliverable as text/html and discovered that that causes problem for i18n in XHTML 1.1 - reason: if UA knows about XML, uses xml:lang served as text, only @lang works
14:09:14 <oedipus> SP: HTML5 is proposing to require both @lang and xml:lang - both having same value; want change to one or the other or both; request for reference to decision that XHTML should be delivered as text/html so pointed him to mediatypes document
14:09:34 <oedipus> SP: plan was to tell HTC about it this week - would like to announce it to them this week
14:09:39 <oedipus> GJR: plus 1
14:10:00 <oedipus> SM: plus 1 - fine if point to editor's draft - it's not "done", but ready to socialize
14:10:24 <oedipus> SP: will add that document to XHTML2 report to HTC and see what happens
14:10:51 <oedipus> SP: a Note is a final state - working draft should state the aim of document is to become a Note
14:11:17 <oedipus> SM: check pub rules - all our developmental documents should be marked clearly as editor's drafts
14:11:31 <oedipus> SP: vertical bar on side says "W3C Note"
14:11:44 <oedipus> SM: please point out any similar instances you or anyone else finds
14:11:48 <oedipus> SP: will report to HTC
14:12:13 <oedipus> TOPIC: M12N transition: status
14:13:08 <oedipus> SP: received reply from commentor--happy with reply; made changes to references and ready to go; sent off transition request - hope to hear from TBL or SteveB if want transition call - may not be necessary - hope to publish in early September, depending on CommTeam's time
14:13:12 <oedipus> SP: draft ready?
14:13:25 <oedipus> SM: M12n - yes
14:13:38 <oedipus> SP: reviewed and added updated section
14:13:53 <oedipus> ACTION: Steven - produce new section for M12n - 
14:14:02 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
14:14:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/27-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
14:14:35 <oedipus> TOPIC: Agenda Shaping
14:14:49 <ShaneM> XHTMLMIME document updated at http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtmlmime-20080827/
14:16:22 <oedipus> GJR: have an open to WAI but UA group in particular notification of mnemonic when key binding changes and character isn't present in labelling text
14:17:53 <oedipus> SP: if haven't got mnemonic keys on keyboard, mobile keyboard, for example, have limited range of keys - "m" key could translate to 6, but want person to use the 6 but not going to be in label
14:18:20 <oedipus> GJR: following every rabbit hole -- even those that lead to dead ends
14:19:01 <oedipus> SP: nothing to discuss then via access -- thanks SM for making changes - great stuff
14:19:19 <oedipus> s/TOPIC: Agenda Shaping/TOPIC: Access Module
14:19:30 <oedipus> SP: suggest we adjourn early
14:19:37 <oedipus> SP: speak to you all next week
14:19:40 <Zakim> -ShaneM
14:19:40 <oedipus> ADJOURNED
14:19:41 <Zakim> -Tina
14:19:41 <Zakim> -Steven
14:19:44 <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita
14:19:45 <Zakim> IA_XHTML2()9:45AM has ended
14:19:46 <Zakim> Attendees were Gregory_Rosmaita, +04670855aaaa, ShaneM, Steven, Tina
14:19:52 <oedipus> zakim, please part
14:19:52 <Zakim> Zakim has left #xhtml
14:19:57 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
14:19:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/27-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
14:20:11 <Steven> Thanks again Gregory
14:20:28 <oedipus> no problem - i'll push them through and announce to list - have fun at the forms call
14:23:15 <oedipus> s/have an open to WAI but UA group/have posed open question on discoverability of remapped keys, especially when character isn't in label text to all of the WAI, but the UA group in particular is investigating discoverability for those who need - for example - a high level of zooming, but no dedicated assistive tech to provide 
14:23:17 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
14:23:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/27-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
14:26:00 <ShaneM> ShaneM has left #xhtml
14:35:55 <oedipus> present- [+04670855aaaa]
14:36:02 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
14:36:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/27-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
14:36:22 <oedipus> present- +04670855aaaa
14:36:24 <oedipus> rrsagent, make minutes
14:36:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/27-xhtml-minutes.html oedipus
14:36:44 <oedipus> rrsagent, please part
14:36:44 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/27-xhtml-actions.rdf :
14:36:44 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Steven - produce new section for M12n -  [1]
14:36:44 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/27-xhtml-irc#T14-13-53