IRC log of swd on 2008-08-26

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:54:13 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #swd
14:54:13 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/08/26-swd-irc
14:54:20 [TomB]
rrsagent, bookmark
14:54:20 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2008/08/26-swd-irc#T14-54-20
14:54:24 [edsu]
edsu has joined #swd
14:54:25 [TomB]
zakim, this will be swd
14:54:25 [Zakim]
ok, TomB, I see SW_SWD()11:00AM already started
14:54:29 [TomB]
Meeting: SWD WG
14:54:32 [TomB]
Chair: Tom
14:54:42 [TomB]
rrsagent, please make record public
14:55:00 [TomB]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2008Aug/0068.html
14:55:09 [TomB]
Previous: http://www.w3.org/2008/08/19-swd-minutes.html
14:55:17 [TomB]
Regrets: Vit, Elisa
14:57:31 [berrueta]
berrueta has joined #swd
14:57:58 [qreul]
qreul has joined #swd
14:58:49 [seanb]
seanb has joined #swd
14:58:52 [Zakim]
+ +0122427aaaa
14:59:17 [Zakim]
+Ralph
14:59:31 [TomB]
zakim, aaaa is Qreul
14:59:32 [Zakim]
+Qreul; got it
14:59:48 [Zakim]
+[LC]
14:59:55 [edsu]
zakim, LC is edsu
14:59:55 [Zakim]
+edsu; got it
15:00:56 [Zakim]
+Ben_Adida
15:01:04 [aliman]
aliman has joined #swd
15:01:34 [Zakim]
+??P33
15:01:37 [seanb]
zakim, ??P33 is me
15:01:42 [Zakim]
+[CTIC]
15:01:46 [berrueta]
zakim, [CTIC] is me
15:01:50 [Zakim]
+seanb; got it
15:02:02 [Zakim]
+??P3
15:02:04 [Zakim]
+berrueta; got it
15:02:09 [benadida]
benadida has joined #swd
15:02:26 [Guus]
Guus has joined #swd
15:02:52 [dlrubin]
dlrubin has joined #swd
15:03:23 [Zakim]
+??P42
15:03:35 [Zakim]
+??P41
15:03:49 [dlrubin]
zakim, p42 is dlrubin
15:03:49 [Zakim]
sorry, dlrubin, I do not recognize a party named 'p42'
15:03:50 [Guus]
zakim, who is here?
15:03:50 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ??P4, Qreul, Ralph, edsu, Ben_Adida, seanb, berrueta, ??P3, ??P42, ??P41
15:03:52 [Zakim]
On IRC I see dlrubin, Guus, benadida, aliman, seanb, qreul, berrueta, edsu, RRSAgent, Zakim, TomB, Ralph
15:04:10 [dlrubin]
zakim, p42 is Daniel
15:04:10 [Zakim]
sorry, dlrubin, I do not recognize a party named 'p42'
15:04:18 [Ralph]
zakim, ??p41 is AliMan
15:04:18 [Zakim]
+AliMan; got it
15:04:23 [Guus]
zakim, ?p3 is Guus
15:04:23 [Zakim]
sorry, Guus, I do not recognize a party named '?p3'
15:04:29 [Ralph]
zakim, ??p42 is dlrubn
15:04:29 [Zakim]
+dlrubn; got it
15:04:39 [Guus]
zakim, ??p3 is Guus
15:04:39 [Zakim]
+Guus; got it
15:04:44 [Ralph]
zakim, dlrubn is really dlrubin
15:04:44 [Zakim]
+dlrubin; got it
15:04:45 [TomB]
zakim, who is on the call?
15:04:45 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ??P4, Qreul, Ralph, edsu, Ben_Adida, seanb, berrueta, Guus, dlrubin, AliMan
15:04:58 [Ralph]
zakim, ??p4 is TomB
15:04:58 [Zakim]
+TomB; got it
15:05:12 [edsu]
Scribenick: edsu
15:05:13 [Zakim]
+Antoine_Isaac
15:05:21 [Antoine]
Antoine has joined #swd
15:05:34 [edsu]
Topic: Admin
15:05:56 [edsu]
RESOLVED to accept minutes http://www.w3.org/2008/08/19-swd-minutes.html
15:06:06 [edsu]
Topic: SKOS
15:06:25 [edsu]
TomB: we have to reviews of the SKOS Reference
15:06:35 [seanb]
-> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/SKOS/reference/20080820/
15:07:10 [edsu]
Margherita is not here to give her reaction to the response
15:07:26 [edsu]
TomB: we have two issues: skos labeling properties, and the aspects of owl2 annotations
15:07:53 [Ralph]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2008Aug/0065.html "SKOS Labelling Properties" [Sean 2008-08-22]
15:08:23 [edsu]
seanb: wrt labeling properties, in the reference it doesn't explicitly state that the labeling properties are subproperties of rdfs:label
15:08:55 [edsu]
... alistair and i discussed this, i felt that they should be subproperties of rdfs:label, alistair was ambivalent, guus was in support
15:09:49 [edsu]
TomB: are we ready to take a decision on Last Call, my only concern is Margherita isn't here
15:09:59 [edsu]
Guus: do we have a proposal from the editors?
15:10:21 [edsu]
seanb: can we make it now?
15:10:39 [edsu]
Ralph: the revised reference is published or not published?
15:11:19 [edsu]
Guus: send an email to the list quickly, and propose it as a LC working draft
15:11:40 [edsu]
Ralph: i think the group has been following along and understands that the aug 22 document would be coming up today
15:11:46 [edsu]
... don't feel a strong reason to delay
15:13:12 [edsu]
ACTION: Sean and Alistair to propose a revised SKOS Reference for the last call by Fri 22/08/08 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/19-swd-minutes.html#action01]
15:13:17 [edsu]
--done
15:13:36 [edsu]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2008Aug/0082.html
15:14:12 [edsu]
Ralph: lets resolve to publish, but wait till weds to see if Margherita responds
15:14:36 [edsu]
PROPOSED: That the draft http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/SKOS/reference/20080820/
15:15:21 [edsu]
PROPOSED: That the draft http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/SKOS/reference/20080820/ be published as a last call working draft with 24 hr delay to see if Margherita responds
15:16:15 [edsu]
PROPOSED: That the draft http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/SKOS/reference/20080820/ be published as a last call working draft unless Margherita objects by Aug 27th 16:00 UTC
15:16:37 [edsu]
RESOLVED: That the draft http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/SKOS/reference/20080820/ be published as a last call working draft unless Margherita objects by Aug 27th 16:00 UTC
15:16:49 [edsu]
TomB: congrats to editors
15:17:38 [edsu]
ACTION: Ralph and Guus to review the Primer Editor's Draft [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/19-swd-minutes.html#action06]
15:18:14 [edsu]
Ralph: we're currently inconsistent between the primer and reference about the URI for the SKOS namespace
15:19:05 [edsu]
TomB: has it been corrected?
15:19:14 [edsu]
Antoine: still incorrect
15:19:24 [edsu]
Ralph: reference uses 2008, primer uses 2004
15:20:59 [edsu]
ACTION: Ralph and Guus to review the Primer Editor's Draft [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/19-swd-minutes.html#action06]
15:21:25 [edsu]
--dropped
15:21:52 [edsu]
Antoine: it's corrected right now ...
15:22:02 [Antoine]
http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/SKOS/DraftPrimer?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=SKOSPrimer-080826.html
15:22:52 [edsu]
PROPOSED: that the draft http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/SKOS/DraftPrimer?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=SKOSPrimer-080826.html be published as an updated working draft
15:23:17 [edsu]
RESOLVED: that the draft http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/SKOS/DraftPrimer?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=SKOSPrimer-080826.html be published as an updated working draft
15:23:47 [GuusS]
GuusS has joined #swd
15:24:11 [edsu]
Guus: we have to have actions to draft the request, and fix the last call period
15:24:34 [edsu]
ACTION: Chairs to request Last Call for SKOS Reference
15:25:09 [edsu]
GuusS: we have to think about the dependencies we have on other groups, who we should ask explicitly for a review, and decide on period
15:25:17 [edsu]
TomB: should we discuss now?
15:25:27 [edsu]
Ralph: we could brainstorm on groups
15:25:34 [edsu]
... the OWL group is an obvious one
15:26:09 [edsu]
GuusS: I think 5 week period would be fine, publish on Friday, which would bring us to 3 Oct
15:26:29 [edsu]
Ralph: seems fine
15:26:47 [edsu]
GuusS: need to LC training for editors
15:27:10 [edsu]
PROPOSED: 5 week LC period for SKOS Reference, lasting until 3 Oct
15:27:34 [edsu]
Ralph: i will be unavailable sep 9-18
15:27:59 [edsu]
TomB: I second
15:28:01 [Ralph]
+1
15:28:05 [edsu]
RESOLVED: 5 week LC period for SKOS Reference, lasting until 3 Oct
15:28:41 [edsu]
Ralph: we're supposed to notify chairs, and get them to agree on the date we've proposed
15:28:48 [edsu]
GuusS: which groups do we need to inform?
15:29:00 [edsu]
Ralph: perhaps we could check charter :)
15:29:05 [Ralph]
-> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/swdwg-charter SWD charter
15:29:51 [edsu]
Ralph: Rules Working Group probably doesn't care about SKOS, SWEO doesn't exist anymore
15:30:03 [edsu]
GuusS: I don't think we have any formal dependencies
15:30:15 [edsu]
Ralph: I think OWL we should request comments from
15:30:59 [edsu]
GuusS: perhaps the coordination group
15:31:23 [edsu]
Ralph: perhaps you could send mail to the OWL Chairs and the CG, with the last call period
15:32:13 [edsu]
Ralph: LC is a statement to the world that technically we think we're done, other than things we documented as 'at risk'
15:32:57 [GuusS]
q+
15:33:40 [edsu]
... we expect only editorial changes, we are required to respond to all email messages, accepting or modifying each editorial suggestion, hopefully any technical questions can be resolved based on our previous discussions, it's important we respond on a timely basis to all email messages after we publish LC
15:34:58 [Ralph]
q+
15:35:34 [edsu]
GuusS: when we get comments, be extremely polite, delay responding if you don't know how, it's custom to quote the document, don't come up w/ a new argument that's not in the document
15:36:04 [edsu]
... also use the magic phrase "can you live with these changes" to get consensus, and try to get the response "yes"
15:36:16 [edsu]
... we typically use the issue list, like you saw RDFa doing
15:36:29 [Ralph]
use the phrase "Last Call Comment:" in the title of an issue
15:36:39 [edsu]
... if it's a small editorial thing might not be necessary, anything other than that raise the LC issue pointing to the message
15:36:58 [edsu]
Ralph: even for small edits, so we have a list when we go to the Director
15:37:35 [edsu]
... if you include "last call comment:" ben has a handy script for compiling these
15:38:06 [Ralph]
for example, -> http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues/112
15:38:28 [edsu]
benadida: i should write up short guide, you effectively enter a little bit of structured data to the issue text
15:38:50 [edsu]
ACTION: Ben to write a short message to the list about how to enter in Issues so that they can be tracked
15:39:04 [edsu]
GuusS: aliman, seanb you comfortable w/ this?
15:39:12 [edsu]
aliman, seanb: yup
15:39:49 [edsu]
GuusS: good to propose response to the list first
15:40:08 [aliman]
q+ to ask, who drafts the announcement emails?
15:41:27 [edsu]
ACTION: Guus to confirm w/ OWL Chairs and Coordination Group that the LC period is OK
15:41:32 [edsu]
Topic: RDFa
15:41:54 [edsu]
TomB: RDFa Syntax, the XHTML WG has accepted
15:42:11 [edsu]
TomB: Diego and Ed reviewed
15:42:43 [edsu]
benadida: happy with both ed's comments
15:43:06 [edsu]
TomB: can we take a decision without having the edited version?
15:43:08 [Ralph]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2008Aug/0069.html Ed's comments
15:43:13 [edsu]
benadida: i think so
15:43:31 [edsu]
Ralph: I agree
15:44:33 [edsu]
Ralph: are we likely to get a reply from Allan?
15:44:45 [edsu]
benadida: he said he would look at it
15:44:59 [edsu]
... don't think he will object
15:45:12 [edsu]
Ralph: not having acknowledgment doesn't need to block us
15:45:19 [edsu]
ACTION: Ed and Diego to review the latest RDFa Syntax Editor's Draft [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/19-swd-minutes.html#action07]
15:45:23 [edsu]
--done
15:46:12 [edsu]
Ralph: we received a lengthy set of comments from Allan that we decided were editorial, and have not received a response, but we can proceed in the absence of those comments, but we would prefer not to have to
15:46:21 [edsu]
... ben is in close contact
15:46:44 [edsu]
benadida: he'll get back to the group, i'm not worried
15:48:31 [edsu]
PROPOSED: Semantic Web Deployment WG agrees transition RDFa from CR to PR
15:48:48 [edsu]
RESOLVED: Semantic Web Deployment WG agrees transition RDFa from CR to PR
15:48:58 [edsu]
TomB: thanks to the editors!
15:49:06 [edsu]
Ralph: and the reviewers
15:49:23 [edsu]
Topic: SKOS Issues
15:50:24 [Ralph]
-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2008Aug/0058.html Sean on annotations
15:50:27 [edsu]
seanb: what kind of requirements do we have for annotation properties, within the owl wg they felt they might provide annotation properties with open ended semantics
15:50:41 [edsu]
... not sure how much discussion we can have without seeing detailed proposal
15:51:39 [edsu]
... just wanted to make the WG aware, seems like it would take additional vocabulary
15:52:44 [edsu]
... which would allow you to make assertions about annotation properties
15:53:12 [edsu]
Ralph: do you think properties like this are something that owl2 would eventually do?
15:53:49 [edsu]
seanb: from what i understood form talking to people, yes it could be ... some vocab would be defined without pinning down the semantics
15:54:18 [edsu]
... they would be opaque to the owl reasoners
15:54:25 [aliman]
sean means things like "owl2:subAnnotationProperty" in addition to rdfs:subPropertyOf ... ?
15:54:36 [edsu]
... i think it needs more detail for us to discuss, but thought it was worth raising for awareness
15:54:41 [aliman]
q+ to support the requirement, without any comment on the solution
15:54:49 [TomB]
ack ralph
15:54:56 [aliman]
zakim, unmute aliman
15:54:56 [Zakim]
AliMan should no longer be muted
15:55:29 [edsu]
Ralph: if this is something that owl2 might have, then it might be premature to consider in the context of skos right now
15:55:59 [edsu]
seanb: i don't think it should impact what we are doing, but that it might be useful for a skos vocabulary, still speculative
15:56:02 [TomB]
ack aliman
15:56:02 [Zakim]
aliman, you wanted to ask, who drafts the announcement emails? and to support the requirement, without any comment on the solution
15:56:10 [edsu]
... wasn't proposing a change to the reference or skos schema
15:56:41 [edsu]
aliman: i don't know that we can make any comment without more detail
15:57:18 [edsu]
TomB: not clear to me if we need to take an action that we need to track
15:57:30 [edsu]
seanb: i can track down some details, and discuss on the list
15:57:47 [Zakim]
+??P1
15:58:13 [Ralph]
zakim, ??p1 is Margherita
15:58:13 [Zakim]
+Margherita; got it
15:58:28 [edsu]
TomB: welcome Margherita
15:59:28 [edsu]
Margherita: why do you leave the SKOS elements open, that's my general question
15:59:39 [edsu]
TomB: having trouble understanding
16:00:03 [edsu]
Margherita: no problem, i will send in email ... i'm in india and the connection is not very reliable
16:00:32 [marghe]
marghe has joined #swd
16:00:46 [edsu]
Ralph: we would like to publish the SKOS Reference as LC, which means we don't plan on making any more technical changes, do you think we should have your discussion about irreflexivity and wait
16:01:03 [edsu]
marghe: all the comments on the list were fine for me
16:01:05 [Ralph]
Margherita: all the responses to my comments seem ok. Generally, I wondered why more properties are not declared as irreflexive
16:01:52 [edsu]
TomB: it sounds like your concerns should not hold up LC?
16:02:00 [edsu]
marghe: definitely
16:02:28 [edsu]
TomB: so we'll go ahead w/ publication of LC working draft
16:02:45 [GuusS]
q+
16:02:58 [edsu]
... perhaps we can combe back to SKOS Quick Reference next week
16:03:30 [edsu]
ACTION: Alistair to update the history page adding direct link to latest version of rdf triple [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/17-swd-minutes.html#action01]
16:03:35 [edsu]
--continues
16:03:45 [edsu]
ACTION: Ralph/Diego to work on Wordnet implementation [of Recipes implementations] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action20]
16:03:49 [edsu]
--continues
16:03:55 [edsu]
ACTION: Jon and Ralph to publish Recipes as Working Group Note [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/10-swd-minutes.html#action03]
16:03:58 [edsu]
--continues
16:04:06 [edsu]
ACTION: Diego to put the Wiki page on RDFa metadata in a Note form [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/05-swd-minutes.html#action11]
16:04:10 [edsu]
--done
16:04:21 [edsu]
ACTION: Jeremy to review Curie syntax doc by Sep 05 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/19-swd-minutes.html#action12]
16:04:25 [edsu]
--continues
16:04:59 [edsu]
GuusS: for next time we need to put on the agenda the Implementation Report, and how we're going to handle the candidate rec period
16:05:09 [edsu]
... last piece of real work, assuming LC goes well
16:05:16 [Ralph]
s/period/period for SKOS
16:05:32 [edsu]
TomB: next call will be on 2 Sep
16:05:49 [edsu]
... congrats to all the editors, see you next week
16:05:53 [Zakim]
-Ben_Adida
16:05:54 [Zakim]
-Qreul
16:05:57 [Zakim]
-berrueta
16:05:58 [Zakim]
-Guus
16:05:58 [Zakim]
-Antoine_Isaac
16:05:59 [Zakim]
-dlrubin
16:05:59 [Zakim]
-AliMan
16:06:04 [Zakim]
-Margherita
16:06:14 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been +0122427aaaa, Ralph, Qreul, edsu, Ben_Adida, seanb, berrueta, AliMan, Guus, dlrubin, TomB, Antoine_Isaac, Margherita
16:06:17 [Zakim]
-seanb
16:06:20 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/26-swd-minutes.html Ralph
16:07:03 [Zakim]
-edsu
16:07:05 [Zakim]
-Ralph
16:07:12 [Zakim]
-TomB
16:07:26 [marghe]
marghe has left #swd
16:07:40 [Zakim]
SW_SWD()11:00AM has ended
16:07:41 [Zakim]
Attendees were +0122427aaaa, Ralph, Qreul, edsu, Ben_Adida, seanb, berrueta, AliMan, Guus, dlrubin, TomB, Antoine_Isaac, Margherita
16:11:13 [seanb]
seanb has left #swd
17:54:07 [Ralph]
zakim, bye
17:54:07 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #swd
17:54:09 [Ralph]
rrsagent, bye
17:54:09 [RRSAgent]
I see 12 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/26-swd-actions.rdf :
17:54:09 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Sean and Alistair to propose a revised SKOS Reference for the last call by Fri 22/08/08 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/19-swd-minutes.html#action01] [1]
17:54:09 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/26-swd-irc#T15-13-12
17:54:09 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ralph and Guus to review the Primer Editor's Draft [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/19-swd-minutes.html#action06] [2]
17:54:09 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/26-swd-irc#T15-17-38
17:54:09 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ralph and Guus to review the Primer Editor's Draft [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/19-swd-minutes.html#action06] [3]
17:54:09 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/26-swd-irc#T15-20-59
17:54:09 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Chairs to request Last Call for SKOS Reference [4]
17:54:09 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/26-swd-irc#T15-24-34
17:54:09 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ben to write a short message to the list about how to enter in Issues so that they can be tracked [5]
17:54:09 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/26-swd-irc#T15-38-50
17:54:09 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Guus to confirm w/ OWL Chairs and Coordination Group that the LC period is OK [6]
17:54:09 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/26-swd-irc#T15-41-27
17:54:09 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ed and Diego to review the latest RDFa Syntax Editor's Draft [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/19-swd-minutes.html#action07] [7]
17:54:09 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/26-swd-irc#T15-45-19
17:54:09 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Alistair to update the history page adding direct link to latest version of rdf triple [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/17-swd-minutes.html#action01] [8]
17:54:09 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/26-swd-irc#T16-03-30
17:54:09 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ralph/Diego to work on Wordnet implementation [of Recipes implementations] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/01/22-swd-minutes.html#action20] [9]
17:54:09 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/26-swd-irc#T16-03-45
17:54:09 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jon and Ralph to publish Recipes as Working Group Note [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/06/10-swd-minutes.html#action03] [10]
17:54:09 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/26-swd-irc#T16-03-55
17:54:09 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Diego to put the Wiki page on RDFa metadata in a Note form [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/05-swd-minutes.html#action11] [11]
17:54:09 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/26-swd-irc#T16-04-06
17:54:09 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jeremy to review Curie syntax doc by Sep 05 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/19-swd-minutes.html#action12] [12]
17:54:09 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2008/08/26-swd-irc#T16-04-21