14:45:12 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rif
14:45:12 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/08/26-rif-irc
14:45:18 <ChrisW> zakim, this will be rif
14:45:18 <Zakim> ok, ChrisW; I see SW_RIF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 15 minutes
14:45:32 <ChrisW> Meeting: RIF Telecon 26-Aug-08
14:45:36 <ChrisW> Chair: Chris Welty
14:45:50 <ChrisW> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Aug/0127.html
14:46:05 <ChrisW> ChrisW has changed the topic to: 26 Aug RIF Telecon Agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Aug/0127.html
14:46:28 <ChrisW> zakim, clear agenda
14:46:28 <Zakim> agenda cleared
14:46:33 <ChrisW> agenda+ Admin
14:46:38 <ChrisW> agenda+ Liason
14:46:44 <ChrisW> agenda+ Action review
14:46:50 <ChrisW> agenda+ F2F11
14:46:55 <ChrisW> agenda+ DTB
14:46:58 <ChrisW> agenda+ Core
14:47:03 <ChrisW> agenda+ Test Cases
14:47:14 <ChrisW> agenda+ Publicity
14:47:22 <ChrisW> agenda+ Pick Scribe for next week
14:47:27 <ChrisW> agenda+ AOB
14:47:35 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
14:47:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/26-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
14:47:54 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make logs public
15:00:03 <mdean> mdean has joined #rif
15:00:26 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has now started
15:00:31 <DaveReynolds> DaveReynolds has joined #rif
15:00:34 <Zakim> +[IBM]
15:00:38 <MichaelKifer> MichaelKifer has joined #rif
15:00:44 <Zakim> +Mike_Dean
15:00:45 <ChrisW> zakim, ibm is temporarily me
15:00:45 <Zakim> +ChrisW; got it
15:00:56 <ChrisW> zakim, list agenda
15:00:57 <Zakim> I see 10 items remaining on the agenda:
15:00:57 <Zakim> 1. Admin [from ChrisW]
15:00:59 <Zakim> 2. Liason [from ChrisW]
15:01:02 <Zakim> 3. Action review [from ChrisW]
15:01:02 <Zakim> 4. F2F11 [from ChrisW]
15:01:04 <Zakim> 5. DTB [from ChrisW]
15:01:06 <Zakim> 6. Core [from ChrisW]
15:01:10 <Zakim> 7. Test Cases [from ChrisW]
15:01:12 <Zakim> 8. Publicity [from ChrisW]
15:01:14 <Zakim> 9. Pick Scribe for next week [from ChrisW]
15:01:16 <Zakim> 10. AOB [from ChrisW]
15:01:37 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
15:01:48 <Zakim> + +1.631.833.aaaa
15:01:49 <LeoraMorgenstern> LeoraMorgenstern has joined #rif
15:01:50 <ChrisW> zakim, who is talking?
15:01:52 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Admin" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:01:54 <Zakim> +Sandro
15:02:05 <MichaelKifer> zakim, aaaa is me
15:02:12 <Zakim> ChrisW, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ChrisW (16%)
15:02:14 <Zakim> +MichaelKifer; got it
15:02:24 <Zakim> +??P40
15:02:26 <StellaMitchell> StellaMitchell has joined #rif
15:02:30 <sandro> zakim, who is talking?
15:02:30 <Zakim> -MichaelKifer
15:02:32 <Zakim> + +1.212.781.aabb
15:02:41 <Zakim> sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: +1.212.781.aabb (37%)
15:02:43 <LeoraMorgenstern> zakim, aabb is me
15:02:44 <Zakim> +LeoraMorgenstern; got it
15:03:05 <Zakim> +MichaelKifer
15:03:10 <sandro> zakim, who is talking?
15:03:20 <Zakim> sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ChrisW (58%), MichaelKifer (94%), Sandro (39%)
15:03:26 <Zakim> -MichaelKifer
15:03:33 <sandro> zakim, who is talking?
15:03:44 <Zakim> sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ChrisW (14%), Sandro (43%)
15:03:46 <Zakim> +[IBM]
15:03:51 <AxelPolleres> AxelPolleres has joined #rif
15:03:53 <StellaMitchell> zakim, ibm is temporarily me
15:03:53 <Zakim> +StellaMitchell; got it
15:03:55 <StuartTaylor> StuartTaylor has joined #rif
15:03:58 <Zakim> +MichaelKifer
15:04:16 <csma> csma has joined #rif
15:04:32 <yuting> yuting has joined #rif
15:04:41 <Zakim> +??P44
15:05:09 <ChrisW> Scribe: MichaelKifer
15:05:28 <Zakim> + +0122427aacc
15:05:39 <yuting> zakim, aacc is me
15:05:39 <Zakim> +yuting; got it
15:06:00 <yuting> zakim, StuartTaylor is with me
15:06:00 <Zakim> +StuartTaylor; got it
15:06:08 <Zakim> +??P49
15:06:12 <ChrisW> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Aug/att-0107/19082008-rif-minutes.html
15:06:18 <csma> zakim, ??P40 is me
15:06:18 <Zakim> I already had ??P40 as DaveReynolds, csma
15:06:26 <Zakim> +[NRCC]
15:06:35 <csma> zakim, ??P49 is me
15:06:35 <Zakim> +csma; got it
15:06:36 <ChrisW> PROPOSED: Accept minutes of Aug 19 telecon
15:06:42 <ChrisW> RESOLVED: Accept minutes of Aug 19 telecon
15:06:44 <csma> zakim, mute me
15:06:46 <Zakim> csma should now be muted
15:07:05 <AdrianP> AdrianP has joined #rif
15:07:14 <yuting> zakim, mute me
15:07:14 <Zakim> yuting should now be muted
15:07:19 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
15:07:19 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Liason" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:08:05 <JeffP> JeffP has joined #rif
15:08:41 <Zakim> + +49.351.463.4.aadd
15:08:43 <GaryHallmark> GaryHallmark has joined #rif
15:08:50 <AdrianP> Zakim, aadd is me
15:08:51 <Zakim> +AdrianP; got it
15:08:52 <Zakim> -MichaelKifer
15:09:00 <ChrisW> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:09:01 <Zakim> On the phone I see ChrisW, Mike_Dean, Sandro, DaveReynolds, LeoraMorgenstern, StellaMitchell, AxelPolleres, yuting (muted), csma (muted), [NRCC], AdrianP
15:09:05 <AdrianP> Zakim, mute me
15:09:06 <Zakim> yuting has yuting, StuartTaylor
15:09:08 <Zakim> AdrianP should now be muted
15:09:22 <ChrisW> Scribe: Harold
15:09:27 <Harold> zakim, [NRCC] is me
15:09:32 <Zakim> +Harold; got it
15:10:03 <Harold> Sandro: OWL-RL is a profile for OWL coupled with rule engines.
15:10:23 <Harold> ... It may fit BLD or FLD.
15:10:38 <Zakim> +yuting.a
15:10:39 <DaveReynolds> I would hope OWL-RL fits within Core
15:10:52 <JeffP> zakim, yuting.a is me
15:10:52 <Zakim> +JeffP; got it
15:11:08 <Harold> Chris: Can we ask them to publish such rule bases in RIF XML syntax.
15:11:10 <Zakim> + +1.503.533.aaee
15:11:25 <Harold> Sandro: Yes. at some point.
15:11:25 <GaryHallmark> zakim, aaee is me
15:11:25 <Zakim> +GaryHallmark; got it
15:12:08 <JeffP> QL
15:12:10 <AxelPolleres> URL?
15:12:24 <Harold> Mike: Is it renamed from earlier name?
15:12:51 <Harold> Sandro: Evocative of RuLes.
15:13:08 <JeffP> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Profiles
15:13:57 <sandro> yeah, more specifically:  http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Profiles#OWL_2_RL
15:14:06 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
15:14:07 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Action review" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:14:19 <AxelPolleres> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/InternationalizedStringSpec
15:14:36 <AxelPolleres> ... need to check the implications of Botris Motik's reply to me.
15:14:54 <ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Response_to_PPS4
15:15:18 <ChrisW> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:15:18 <Zakim> On the phone I see ChrisW, Mike_Dean, Sandro, DaveReynolds, LeoraMorgenstern, StellaMitchell, AxelPolleres, yuting (muted), csma (muted), Harold, AdrianP (muted), JeffP,
15:15:20 <Zakim> ... GaryHallmark
15:15:20 <Zakim> yuting has yuting, StuartTaylor
15:15:32 <Harold> Chris: Axel keep looking at comments wrt DTB relationships.
15:15:40 <ChrisW> action: axel to look at DTB comments in Peters message
15:15:41 <trackbot> Created ACTION-568 - Look at DTB comments in Peters message [on Axel Polleres - due 2008-09-02].
15:16:29 <AdrianP> ok, thanks Sandro
15:17:23 <AdrianP> Zakim, unmute me
15:17:23 <Zakim> AdrianP should no longer be muted
15:18:32 <AdrianP> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/PRD#Rules_instantiation:_INSTANTIATE
15:18:54 <Harold> Adrian: Have reformulated, interacting with Christian, the semantics of instantiate function.
15:19:00 <ChrisW> zakim, next item
15:19:00 <Zakim> agendum 4. "F2F11" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:19:11 <AdrianP> Zakim, mute me
15:19:11 <Zakim> AdrianP should now be muted
15:19:54 <ChrisW> zakim, list agenda
15:19:54 <Zakim> I see 7 items remaining on the agenda:
15:19:55 <Zakim> 4. F2F11 [from ChrisW]
15:19:55 <Zakim> 5. DTB [from ChrisW]
15:19:56 <Zakim> 6. Core [from ChrisW]
15:19:56 <Zakim> 7. Test Cases [from ChrisW]
15:19:58 <Zakim> 8. Publicity [from ChrisW]
15:19:59 <Zakim> 9. Pick Scribe for next week [from ChrisW]
15:20:01 <Zakim> 10. AOB [from ChrisW]
15:20:21 <Harold> Harold: Who is in which hotel?
15:20:34 <sandro> Holiday Inn Midtown at $306/night
15:21:12 <Harold> Mike: NJ, $169
15:21:21 <sandro> Holiday Inn Midtown at $306/night   440 WEST 57TH ST       1-212-5818100
15:21:46 <AxelPolleres> Portland Square Hotel (47th street), sharing with jos... makes it cheaper.
15:22:08 <ChrisW> zakim, take up item 7
15:22:08 <Zakim> agendum 7. "Test Cases" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:22:49 <MichaelKifer> MichaelKifer has joined #rif
15:24:06 <Harold> Leora: Issue of more user friendly PS.
15:24:33 <Harold> ... Adrian has proposed improvements.
15:24:47 <Harold> ... We want to bring up this issue.
15:25:06 <Harold> Chris: Current PS makes it difficult to talk about RIF.
15:25:17 <csma> Hear, hear!
15:25:25 <Harold> Leora: It's plain hard. Extra burdon on users.
15:25:41 <Harold> ... Would be good to have other syntax.
15:25:53 <ChrisW> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/UCR#Use_Cases
15:25:55 <Harold> ... Maybe with preprocessor to map to current PS.
15:26:00 <AdrianP> Zakim, unmute me
15:26:00 <Zakim> AdrianP should no longer be muted
15:26:35 <Harold> Chris: What us use is a bunch of shortcuts with if...do.. production rules.
15:26:37 <AxelPolleres> I had some comments on the shortcuts suggested for arithmetics and comparison... http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Aug/0124.html not sure whether the mail was clear, but I can explain it.
15:26:41 <AxelPolleres> q+
15:27:07 <Harold> Adrian: Currently Prolog symbol for "is implied by".
15:27:17 <AxelPolleres> What about triple syntax a la N3?
15:27:30 <Harold> Chris: Also "->" is not a good symbol for slots.
15:28:04 <Harold> Axel: Some examples use arithm shortcuts.
15:28:18 <GaryHallmark> what about colon instead of ->, e.g. ?o[k1:v1 k2:v2]
15:28:26 <AdrianP> you mean, e.g. 	">" "<" "!=" "=" "<=" ">=" as in programming languages
15:28:36 <AdrianP> instead of  e.g. External(pred:numeric-less-than(1 2)) 	
15:29:31 <Harold> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:29:31 <Zakim> On the phone I see ChrisW, Mike_Dean, Sandro, DaveReynolds, LeoraMorgenstern, StellaMitchell, AxelPolleres, yuting (muted), csma (muted), Harold, AdrianP, JeffP, GaryHallmark
15:29:34 <Zakim> yuting has yuting, StuartTaylor
15:29:46 <csma> Why not =, since we currently have only an equality accessor (for slots)?
15:30:01 <csma> as in object[property=value]?
15:30:11 <ChrisW> q?
15:30:14 <ChrisW> ack ax
15:30:58 <Harold> Adrian: Parser can figure out distinctions via arg types (e.g. two numbers).
15:31:08 <Harold> Axel: Makes sense.
15:31:44 <Zakim> -Mike_Dean
15:31:44 <Harold> Sandro: I'm highly dubious.
15:31:52 <csma> q+
15:31:58 <Harold> ... It would be a half-way rule language.
15:32:04 <LeoraMorgenstern> q+
15:32:07 <Harold> ... Either XML or real rule language.
15:32:26 <Harold> ... Run UC: Only XML
15:32:27 <AdrianP> the main intention of the abridged syntax is to make it easy to write down and read rules 
15:32:36 <AxelPolleres> in xpath, etc you have '+','-', but type-checking of the operators is supposed to take place before it is chosen which add or subtract function is actually meant.
15:32:50 <Harold> ... Read UC: Use your own favorite syntax
15:33:04 <Harold> Chris: Requires a tool.
15:33:24 <Harold> Sandro: Yes. Need bootstrapping.
15:33:26 <csma> ack csma
15:33:29 <LeoraMorgenstern> q-
15:33:29 <ChrisW> ack c
15:33:37 <Harold> Christian: Two questions.
15:34:04 <AxelPolleres> ... same for comparisons, i.e., any xpath processor should be able to deal with +,-, >, <, etc. for various datatypes.
15:34:14 <Harold> ... 1) What's purpose of non-abridged syntax if we have an abridged one.
15:34:15 <StellaMitchell> PS is normative, I think
15:34:25 <LeoraMorgenstern> Christian, the semantics have been defined in terms of the presentation syntax, no?
15:34:37 <LeoraMorgenstern> So it makes sense to keep that.
15:34:51 <LeoraMorgenstern> But you still want something that's easier to read and write.
15:35:22 <Harold> ... 2) There is a case where you need to translate/produce RIF doc with a specific rule that is not in XML
15:35:36 <AdrianP> Zakim, mute me
15:35:36 <Zakim> AdrianP should now be muted
15:35:45 <Harold> ... When you need to produce a rule set.
15:35:53 <DaveReynolds> Stella - the "mathematical english" is normative, the presentation syntax and it's EBNF is non-normative, the semantics actually refers to the mathematical English - at least that's how I understand it.
15:36:17 <Harold> Chris: Not transl. test cases now. But entailment test cases.
15:36:35 <Harold> ... Otherwise we would need whole suites of cases for each language.
15:36:41 <csma> zakim, mute me
15:36:41 <Zakim> csma should now be muted
15:37:25 <Harold> Axel: Uneasy with +, -, *, / etc. only for numbers.
15:37:43 <Harold> ... Other languages have such symbols also for other datatypes.
15:37:45 <StellaMitchell> dave, the spec just says "the presenation syntax is normative" (but not the ebnf)
15:37:57 <AdrianP> such abriviations are quite common in nearly all programming languages
15:37:59 <Harold> Chris: Issue is if it's better than current PS.
15:38:25 <Harold> Axel: Agree, but kind of half-way.
15:38:28 <DaveReynolds> Stella - yes, sorry.
15:38:29 <JeffP> still not clear why we need another syntax
15:38:48 <Harold> Chris: Alternative would be to define a new syntax.
15:38:58 <LeoraMorgenstern> JeffP, it's because the current PS is really hard to read and write.
15:39:17 <LeoraMorgenstern> and we are afraid it will affect adoption of RIF.
15:39:37 <JeffP> LeoraMorgenstern, thanks - is PS going to be replaced by the new one?
15:39:40 <Harold> Axel: Should we use the Abridged Syntax but mark it as not covering more than numerics.
15:39:44 <DaveReynolds> Leora - in that case it needs a formal definition, the current defn is ambiguous
15:39:51 <MichaelKifer> MichaelKifer has joined #rif
15:39:54 <LeoraMorgenstern> Dave, I agree.
15:40:02 <Harold> Chris: Will need to make status of Abridged Syntax more explict.
15:40:08 <Harold> Axel: yes.
15:41:00 <Harold> Leora: Discussed various more cases.
15:41:11 <LeoraMorgenstern> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Category:Test_Case
15:41:12 <Harold> ... Quite comprehensive now.
15:41:32 <AxelPolleres> We should mention explicit that our abbreviations for comparison operators and arithmetic operators *only* apply to numeric datatypes, *as opposed to* the more generic use of these abbreviations in languages such as XPATH
15:41:44 <AdrianP> e.g. http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Chaining_strategy_numeric-add-1
15:41:44 <Harold> ... Chaining strategy UC brought in by Axel.
15:42:38 <Harold> Axel: Dual versions, behaving different in (naive) forward and backward engines.
15:43:10 <Harold> ... Cannot just materialize.
15:43:46 <ChrisW> q?
15:44:05 <Harold> Leora: It would help if people make the "discussion" slot more explicit.
15:44:15 <Harold> ... Distinguish various cases.
15:44:23 <Harold> ... Overarching argument.
15:44:44 <Harold> ... Otherwise people can get lost.
15:44:54 <AdrianP> I would propose to group test cases to test suites which have a context
15:45:05 <AdrianP> Zakim, unmute me
15:45:05 <Zakim> AdrianP should no longer be muted
15:45:07 <Harold> Chris: E.g., what Axel just described on the phone should be in the document.
15:45:10 <Harold> Axel: Fine.
15:45:22 <StellaMitchell> and maybe we can use seeAlso field to reference related test cases from test cases
15:45:30 <Harold> Sandro: Description vs. Discussion, with linking.
15:45:47 <Zakim> +Mike_Dean
15:45:49 <Harold> Adrian: Concept of test suite. Once can refer to the other.
15:46:21 <Harold> Gary: Axel's are also legal PRD, which is good.
15:46:41 <Harold> Leora: Stella and I translated a number of UCs.
15:46:42 <StellaMitchell> gary: cases that apply to BLD and PRD could be of dialect CORE
15:46:57 <Harold> ... Dave has a named-arg uniterm ex.
15:47:11 <Harold> ... Next week more.
15:47:26 <ChrisW> zakim, list agenda
15:47:26 <Zakim> I see 7 items remaining on the agenda:
15:47:27 <Zakim> 4. F2F11 [from ChrisW]
15:47:27 <Zakim> 5. DTB [from ChrisW]
15:47:28 <Zakim> 6. Core [from ChrisW]
15:47:28 <Zakim> 7. Test Cases [from ChrisW]
15:47:29 <Zakim> 8. Publicity [from ChrisW]
15:47:30 <Zakim> 9. Pick Scribe for next week [from ChrisW]
15:47:31 <Zakim> 10. AOB [from ChrisW]
15:47:31 <Harold> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:47:32 <ChrisW> zakim, take up item 5
15:47:33 <Zakim> On the phone I see ChrisW, Sandro, DaveReynolds, LeoraMorgenstern, StellaMitchell, AxelPolleres, yuting (muted), csma (muted), Harold, AdrianP, JeffP, GaryHallmark, Mike_Dean
15:47:36 <Zakim> yuting has yuting, StuartTaylor
15:47:38 <Zakim> agendum 5. "DTB" taken up [from ChrisW]
15:48:08 <ChrisW> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rif-wg/2008Aug/0074.html
15:48:21 <Harold> Chris: Let's go over eds note list.
15:48:22 <AdrianP> Other open issues of Test Cases are e.g. the set of properties which we have define or the translation from the WIKI version into a concrete XML syntax
15:49:29 <Harold> Chris: All shortcuts should ultimately be in one place.
15:50:22 <Harold> Axel: Section 2.2 should explain rdf:text shortcut.
15:50:50 <Harold> ... in abridged it would already be it.
15:51:12 <Harold> Chris: Separate wiki page?
15:51:24 <csma> +1 for having the shortcuts and abridged syntax all in one place, and that is not DTB
15:51:32 <Harold> Axel: No problem, but then remove it from all other places.
15:51:48 <AdrianP> yes, good idea
15:51:58 <AdrianP> YES
15:52:00 <AdrianP> yes
15:52:18 <ChrisW> action: adrian to create page that documents abridged syntax
15:52:18 <trackbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - adrian
15:52:18 <trackbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. agiurca, apaschke)
15:52:25 <AdrianP> it will make it easier for programmers
15:52:30 <ChrisW> action: apaschke to create page that documents abridged syntax
15:52:30 <trackbot> Created ACTION-569 - Create page that documents abridged syntax [on Adrian Paschke - due 2008-09-02].
15:53:44 <DaveReynolds> q+
15:53:50 <Harold> Axel: Predicate that takes rdf:text and language tags, matching eg all "en" tags.
15:54:30 <Harold> Dave: In SPARQL there is also a lang matcher.
15:54:44 <Harold> s/ language tags/ language range/
15:55:11 <Harold> Axel: A bit awkward.
15:55:18 <DaveReynolds> q-
15:55:26 <Harold> Chris: Can you extract lang. tag?
15:55:38 <Harold> Axel: Yes, but not typical use case.
15:56:21 <MichaelKifer> MichaelKifer has joined #rif
15:56:23 <Harold> Dave: Fine. Alg the same, just args different.
15:57:02 <Harold> ... Can lang tag be empty xs:string?
15:57:17 <Harold> Axel: We agreed this should not cause any harm.
15:57:35 <Harold> Chris: Does this change anything in the def of matching lang tag?
15:57:53 <Harold> Axel: We could define it for only non-empty lang tags.
15:59:15 <Harold> Dave: Same for func:lang(...)?
15:59:23 <Harold> Axel: Dont see a problem.
15:59:59 <Harold> Dave: Normally no need for testing non-emptiness.
16:00:16 <Harold> ... How does this affact RDF Compatiblity?
16:00:27 <Harold> Axel: We already have different treatment there.
16:01:11 <Harold> ... treat plain literals same as those type with xs:string.
16:01:27 <Harold> ... which is different from RDF.
16:02:20 <Harold> Dave: According to D-entailment it is the same.
16:02:41 <Harold> ... But yours not.
16:03:21 <Harold> Axel: Empty lang tags do not occur in RDF, so it doesnt matter.
16:03:30 <Harold> Sandro: Syntax error in RDF.
16:03:59 <Harold> Chris: OK. So in RDF?
16:04:08 <Harold> Axel: Plain literals.
16:04:46 <Harold> ... So the rdf:text task force is looking into unifying them.
16:05:20 <Harold> Sandro: No problem because rdf:text does not normally occur in RDF.
16:07:37 <Harold> Dave/Sandro/Axel: More discussion about datatype system, performance issues, ...
16:07:56 <Harold> Chris: Record as an issue and move on?
16:08:11 <Harold> ... Dave you are not sure?
16:08:52 <Harold> Dave: No formal objection, need to think more about it. Feels awkward, perhaps raise an error instead.
16:09:44 <Harold> Sandro: Regarding impacts: More on OWL than on Jena.
16:10:00 <Zakim> -ChrisW
16:10:01 <Zakim> -StellaMitchell
16:10:02 <Zakim> -AxelPolleres
16:10:10 <ChrisW> curious
16:10:15 <csma> zakim, unmute me
16:10:15 <Zakim> csma should no longer be muted
16:10:26 <sandro> s/on Jena/on RIF in Jena/
16:10:30 <Harold> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:10:30 <Zakim> On the phone I see Sandro, DaveReynolds, LeoraMorgenstern, yuting (muted), csma, Harold, AdrianP, JeffP, GaryHallmark, Mike_Dean
16:10:33 <Zakim> yuting has yuting, StuartTaylor
16:10:33 <Zakim> +[IBM]
16:10:56 <ChrisW> zakim, ibm is temporarily me
16:10:56 <Zakim> +ChrisW; got it
16:11:02 <sandro> AxelPolleres, how were you dialed in....?
16:11:16 <AxelPolleres> oops
16:11:26 <AxelPolleres> redialing
16:11:26 <Zakim> +[IBM]
16:11:38 <Harold> Dave: Consult with my group and come back if there is a concern.
16:11:44 <ChrisW> zakim, list agenda
16:11:44 <Zakim> I see 7 items remaining on the agenda:
16:11:44 <csma> zakim, mute me
16:11:45 <Zakim> 4. F2F11 [from ChrisW]
16:11:45 <Zakim> 5. DTB [from ChrisW]
16:11:46 <Zakim> 6. Core [from ChrisW]
16:11:46 <Zakim> 7. Test Cases [from ChrisW]
16:11:47 <Zakim> 8. Publicity [from ChrisW]
16:11:48 <Zakim> 9. Pick Scribe for next week [from ChrisW]
16:11:49 <Zakim> 10. AOB [from ChrisW]
16:11:51 <Zakim> csma should now be muted
16:11:52 <StellaMitchell> zakim, ibm is temporarily me
16:11:53 <Zakim> +StellaMitchell; got it
16:12:05 <Zakim> +??P12
16:12:08 <ChrisW> zakim, take up item 8
16:12:08 <Zakim> agendum 8. "Publicity" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:12:28 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Publicity
16:12:44 <Harold> Chris: Much more active PR need be done.
16:12:49 <sandro> see for contrast http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Publicity
16:13:32 <csma> zakim, unmute me
16:13:32 <Zakim> csma should no longer be muted
16:13:35 <sandro> old version....    http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/wiki/Outreach
16:13:51 <MichaelKifer> MichaelKifer has joined #rif
16:14:15 <Harold> ... Use it to record who sent which msg where.
16:14:37 <Harold> ... What advertising has anyone done?
16:14:38 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call?
16:14:38 <Zakim> -LeoraMorgenstern
16:14:39 <DaveReynolds> Re rif:text and RDF compatibility - there isn't a problem. In the RDF spec there is the statement "The xml:lang="" form indicates the absence of a language identifier" which is therefore compatible with the proposed approach. Sorry to have diverted the discussion.
16:14:41 <Zakim> On the phone I see Sandro, DaveReynolds, yuting (muted), csma, Harold, AdrianP, JeffP, GaryHallmark, Mike_Dean, ChrisW, StellaMitchell, AxelPolleres
16:14:43 <Zakim> yuting has yuting, StuartTaylor
16:14:50 <AxelPolleres> I contacted some LP related lists... will add on the wiki
16:15:15 <Harold> ... No one. We need to start doing it NOW.
16:15:38 <AdrianP> Zakim, unmute me
16:15:38 <Zakim> AdrianP was not muted, AdrianP
16:15:41 <Harold> ... Can we find Press Release?
16:15:47 <sandro> Press release: http://www.w3.org/News/2008#item132
16:15:54 <Harold> Adrian: Some LP lists.
16:16:34 <Harold> Axel: Sent to Enrico, the editor of the LP Newsletter.
16:16:50 <AdrianP> xsb-development@lists.sourceforge.net
16:17:04 <Harold> ... If we have a  Press Release, we can bring it in faster, otherwise 3 months.
16:17:11 <AxelPolleres> I did the following:
16:17:11 <AxelPolleres> Dear all,
16:17:11 <AxelPolleres> I would like to draw your attention to the recent drafts published by
16:17:11 <AxelPolleres> the World Wide Web Consortium's Rule Interchange Format (RIF) working
16:17:11 <AxelPolleres> group, towards an interchange format for rules languages:
16:17:12 <AxelPolleres> The current specification is a collection of 6 documents published at
16:17:14 <AxelPolleres> the following URLs:
16:17:16 <AxelPolleres>    1. RIF Use Cases and Requirements
16:17:18 <AxelPolleres>       http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-rif-ucr-20080730/
16:17:20 <AxelPolleres>    2. RIF Basic Logic Dialect
16:17:22 <AxelPolleres>       http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-rif-bld-20080730/
16:17:24 <AxelPolleres>    3. RIF Framework for Logic Dialects
16:17:26 <AxelPolleres>       http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-rif-fld-20080730/
16:17:28 <AxelPolleres>    4. RIF RDF and OWL Compatibility
16:17:30 <AxelPolleres>       http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-rif-rdf-owl-20080730/
16:17:32 <AxelPolleres>    5. RIF Production Rule Dialect
16:17:34 <AxelPolleres>       http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-rif-prd-20080730/
16:17:35 <Harold> Sandro: You have to target your audience / your community's mailing list.
16:17:36 <AxelPolleres>    6. RIF Datatypes and Built-Ins 1.0
16:17:37 <csma> zakim, unmute me
16:17:37 <Zakim> csma was not muted, csma
16:17:38 <AxelPolleres>       http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-rif-dtb-20080730/
16:17:40 <AxelPolleres> The Working Group seeks  public feedback and comments on these drafts on
16:17:42 <AxelPolleres> the following mailinglist at the following email-address:
16:17:44 <AxelPolleres> public-rif-comments@w3.org
16:17:46 <AxelPolleres> with best regards,
16:17:48 <AxelPolleres> Axel
16:18:28 <csma> zakim, mute me
16:18:28 <Zakim> csma should now be muted
16:18:29 <Harold> Christian: Not BCC but FWD.
16:18:55 <Harold> Chris: We have to stress that BLD is in LC.
16:19:10 <Harold> Dave: Main semweb lists.
16:19:26 <Harold> ... Jena Dev list, too
16:19:53 <DaveReynolds> I did publicize inside HP as well.
16:20:43 <Harold> Gary: Send it to Oracle list and to Jess.
16:20:53 <csma> zakim, unmute me
16:20:53 <Zakim> csma should no longer be muted
16:21:28 <AdrianP> yes there is RIF demo at the Orlando conference
16:21:46 <AdrianP> yes, can send it to the RuleML-2008 board
16:22:01 <sandro> my posting to semantic-web@w3.org  http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/semantic-web/2008Aug/0002.html
16:22:28 <sandro> I'll send to swi-prolog@iai.uni-bonn.de
16:22:44 <sandro> semantic-web@w3.org done.
16:22:44 <Harold> Harold: NRC and RR Board/Conf
16:22:46 <Harold> Sandro: SWI Prolog list
16:22:54 <JeffP> Hi
16:23:37 <Harold> Jeff: Rule-related projects
16:24:03 <ChrisW> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:24:03 <Zakim> On the phone I see Sandro, DaveReynolds, yuting (muted), csma, Harold, AdrianP, JeffP, GaryHallmark, Mike_Dean, ChrisW, StellaMitchell, AxelPolleres
16:24:05 <Zakim> yuting has yuting, StuartTaylor
16:24:14 <Harold> Mike: semweb list we covered already
16:24:22 <JeffP> Yuting, do you have any other suggestions?
16:24:49 <Harold> ... DARPA projects
16:25:50 <StellaMitchell> no, no lists
16:26:00 <StellaMitchell> :-)
16:26:01 <yuting> No idea at the moment, beside the MOST project partners
16:26:02 <Harold> Sandro: Even if we don't get much feedback, we have to present evidence that we mailed it out widely.
16:26:05 <StellaMitchell> I'll try
16:26:36 <csma> I plan to send an announcement on the JavaRules list, the Business Rules community list, the various PRR lists, the MISMO BREW list
16:26:45 <csma> zakim, unmute me
16:26:45 <Zakim> csma was not muted, csma
16:27:46 <Harold> Adrian: XSB and JBoss.
16:28:27 <Harold> Christian: see above. Yahoo Group.
16:28:31 <sandro> chris: odm, common-logic,
16:28:40 <Harold> Chris: ODM, Common Logic.
16:28:56 <AxelPolleres> sparql-dev?
16:29:11 <Harold> Christian: Mark could mention it on his blog.
16:29:38 <Harold> Chris: Other blogs. Sandro, Linked-Data community?
16:29:58 <AxelPolleres> public-lod@w3.org
16:30:23 <AdrianP> Zakim, mute me
16:30:23 <Zakim> AdrianP should now be muted
16:30:25 <MichaelKifer> MichaelKifer has joined #rif
16:30:54 <Harold>  zakim, who is on the phone?
16:30:54 <Zakim> On the phone I see Sandro, DaveReynolds, yuting (muted), csma, Harold, AdrianP (muted), JeffP, GaryHallmark, Mike_Dean, ChrisW, StellaMitchell, AxelPolleres
16:30:57 <ChrisW> scribe for next week: GaryHallmark
16:30:58 <Zakim> yuting has yuting, StuartTaylor
16:31:12 <ChrisW> zakim, list agenda
16:31:12 <Zakim> I see 7 items remaining on the agenda:
16:31:13 <Zakim> 4. F2F11 [from ChrisW]
16:31:13 <Zakim> 5. DTB [from ChrisW]
16:31:15 <Zakim> 6. Core [from ChrisW]
16:31:15 <Zakim> 7. Test Cases [from ChrisW]
16:31:16 <Zakim> 8. Publicity [from ChrisW]
16:31:17 <Zakim> 9. Pick Scribe for next week [from ChrisW]
16:31:18 <Zakim> 10. AOB [from ChrisW]
16:31:21 <ChrisW> zakim, take up item 10
16:31:21 <Zakim> agendum 10. "AOB" taken up [from ChrisW]
16:31:27 <yuting> I could also send it to the ai-and-web-in-china, a google group
16:31:32 <Zakim> -StellaMitchell
16:31:33 <DaveReynolds> bye
16:31:34 <Zakim> -AdrianP
16:31:35 <JeffP> thanks, bye
16:31:36 <Zakim> -DaveReynolds
16:31:38 <Zakim> -GaryHallmark
16:31:42 <AdrianP> bye
16:31:43 <Zakim> -Mike_Dean
16:31:51 <ChrisW> zakim, list attendees
16:31:51 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Mike_Dean, ChrisW, +1.631.833.aaaa, Sandro, MichaelKifer, +1.212.781.aabb, DaveReynolds, LeoraMorgenstern, StellaMitchell, AxelPolleres,
16:31:55 <Zakim> ... +0122427aacc, yuting, StuartTaylor, csma, +49.351.463.4.aadd, AdrianP, Harold, JeffP, +1.503.533.aaee, GaryHallmark
16:31:57 <Zakim> -JeffP
16:32:08 <Zakim> -AxelPolleres
16:32:12 <ChrisW> Regrets: JosDeBruijn Hassan Aït-Kaci
16:32:17 <ChrisW> rrsagent, make minutes
16:32:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2008/08/26-rif-minutes.html ChrisW
16:32:53 <Zakim> -Harold
16:32:54 <csma> zakim, unmute me
16:32:54 <Zakim> csma was not muted, csma
16:33:16 <Zakim> -yuting
16:33:23 <ChrisW> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:33:23 <Zakim> On the phone I see Sandro, csma, ChrisW
16:33:59 <Zakim> -Sandro
16:34:01 <Zakim> -ChrisW
16:34:02 <Zakim> -csma
16:34:04 <Zakim> SW_RIF()11:00AM has ended
16:34:05 <Zakim> Attendees were Mike_Dean, ChrisW, +1.631.833.aaaa, Sandro, MichaelKifer, +1.212.781.aabb, DaveReynolds, LeoraMorgenstern, StellaMitchell, AxelPolleres, +0122427aacc, yuting,
16:34:07 <Zakim> ... StuartTaylor, csma, +49.351.463.4.aadd, AdrianP, Harold, JeffP, +1.503.533.aaee, GaryHallmark
16:55:10 <csma> csma has left #rif
17:14:23 <MichaelKifer> MichaelKifer has joined #rif
17:32:56 <MichaelKifer> MichaelKifer has joined #rif
18:44:38 <sandro> sandro has joined #rif