14:40:24 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #svg
14:40:24 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/08/23-svg-irc
14:40:26 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:40:28 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
14:40:28 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
14:40:29 <trackbot> Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
14:40:29 <trackbot> Date: 23 August 2008
14:40:43 <ed> scribe: erik
14:40:46 <ed> scribeNick: ed
14:40:55 <ed> Topic: layout module
14:42:00 <anthony> Zakim, remind me in 3 hours that there is no charge for handsomeness
14:42:00 <Zakim> ok, anthony
14:42:00 <ed> CM: boxes divided into regions and boxes like with springs or struts for dividing space between boxes
14:42:13 <ed> ...grids are a bit more specific
14:42:25 <ed> ...flow layout is a bit different because of linewraps
14:43:02 <ed> DS: flow layout is about arranging objects along a path
14:43:14 <ed> ...both for boxmodel and textpath-style layout
14:43:35 <ed> CM: and absolute-position (which is waht svg already has)
14:43:54 <ed> ...I like being able to use the baseline for alignment
14:44:06 <ed> DS: each element should be able to have an anchor point
14:44:09 <ed> CM: agree
14:44:58 <ed> DS: anchorX anchorY in the coord system of the element
14:45:36 <ed> CM: if you want to align by the baseline then you could have a default of the bottom of the bbox
14:46:02 <ed> ...it might be an idea to have arbitrary connection points between elements
14:46:09 <ed> DS: if you have a circle for example
14:46:56 <ed> ...[draws example with connecting two circles]
14:47:09 <ed> ED: might need to take into account stroke-width
14:47:31 <ed> DS: and the connection isn't on the center, it's on the edge of the circles
14:48:00 <ed> ...markers don't fully do the job
14:48:16 <ed> ...I want to have specific connection points that it defaults to along the stroke
14:48:36 <ed> ...so allowing percentages of the pathlength for the connectors
14:49:07 <ed> ...a commawsp of lengths or percentages, so if I had a rect and only wanted to connect on the middle of each of the sides
14:49:17 <ed> CM: like the idea of named connectionpoints
14:49:26 <ed> DS: like box-right-middle?
14:49:30 <ed> CM: yes
14:49:46 <ed> ...there should be some predefined values like that
14:54:12 <ed> ...we could separate the widgets layout and the diagramming layout
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14:55:49 <ed_> DS: being able to position things relative to one another depending on states
14:56:42 <ed_> ...when we're talking layout and routing you're talking about two different things
14:56:59 <ed_> ...the node position is one thing, and how to connect the nodes another
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14:57:14 <ed_> ...and we shouldn't aim for making the connetions in general
14:57:29 <ed_> CM: graph layout is usually an optimization problem
14:57:39 <ed_> DS: there are different line styles as well
14:58:20 <ed_> ...[draws circles connected with straight, and rounded-rect-like lines]
14:58:32 <ed_> ...so it could be corners-rounded
14:58:38 <ed_> ...for connector-shapes
14:58:46 <ed_> CM: curves, straight lines
14:58:51 <ed_> DS: block
14:59:32 <ed_> CM: connector routing is too complex
14:59:53 <ed_> DS: but we should have a connector shape (the line between two nodes)
15:00:07 <ed_> ...arc, or round, straight, curved
15:00:53 <ed_> CM: what's the advantage of the speciail connector objects over a path where you can specify connection points?
15:01:30 <ed_> DS: two things: we can have predefined connectors that meet common needs, second the styling could be different
15:01:56 <ed_> ...and the script interfaces on the connectors would be different for connectors than paths
15:02:19 <ed_> ...how would you do the 'd' attribute?
15:02:43 <ed_> CM: you could do a combination of relative lengths or variables in the syntax
15:02:57 <ed_> DS: I like the idea of them being semantically a connector
15:03:24 <ed_> CM: but how many other elements like that should we add?
15:03:46 <ed_> DS: right, but graphs is a common usecase
15:04:12 <ed_> CM: when you generalize graphs they usually come down to nodes and edges
15:06:38 <ed_> DS: another aspect is automatic sizing, like depending on font-size
15:06:54 <ed_> CM: XAML can easily put graphics inside layout containers
15:07:21 <ed_> AG: it's designed to do that, and does flowing text etc
15:08:05 <ed_> CM: for placing things inside layout containers, I was thinking to open a new viewport so that you could position things relative to that viewport
15:08:48 <ed_> ...another way is to have the children get an automatic transform put on them
15:11:56 <ed_> ...a simpler expression than the CSVG stuff that I've presented before
15:12:03 <ed_> ...because it was too complex
15:12:24 <ed_> ...it was a bit verbose
15:12:50 <ed_> ...i'd be happy with some way of specifying expressions inside attributes for creating the constraints/layout
15:13:39 <ed_> DS: we should have a DOM method like getLayoutPosition or similar that could fetch the layout data
15:13:57 <ed_> CM: yes, because it's not CTM, and it's not the bboxes
15:14:24 <ed_> DS: like the semantic construct for connector
15:16:30 <ed_> ...for a subway-map, you'd perhaps want to have control over how the paths look
15:16:40 <ed_> ...but still get automatic connectors
15:24:24 <ed_> DS: we might introduce a point element that could be animated and could affect the shape of connectors
15:24:59 <ed_> CM: for putting a marker on some point
15:25:26 <ed_> ...the point would be invisible, but could be used for other things, like maps and layout
15:25:49 <ed_> DS: we might even use the SVGPoint DOM interface for it
15:26:28 <ed_> CM: though you may want to access the animval etc
15:26:43 <ed_> ...the thing I haven't looked at yet is diagramming tools
15:26:51 <ed_> ...they're likely to have different layout functionality
15:27:20 <ed_> DS: like the idea of doing widget layout, but I fear that we'd overlap and have conflict with CSS and HTML
15:27:42 <ed_> CM: wonder if XUL or FLEX could be adapted or if we need to do our own thing
15:28:20 <ed_> DS: we could try to do it in a non-svg-specific way
15:28:47 <ed_> ...and coordinate with other WG:s
15:29:02 <ed_> ...lay groundwork for app framework
15:35:20 <ed_> DS: [talks about min-width,max-width etc and spring layout]
15:36:25 <ed_> CM: we should consider the springs model
15:36:59 <ed_> ...not sure it's useful to be able to get at the lowlevel details
15:37:35 <ed_> DS: if it was consistent and easy to implement that might be worth a slight pain for authoring
15:38:04 <ed_> ...requirements: easily interoperable and performant
15:39:23 <ed_> CM: if you had one-way constraints you could use those two influence the layout structure
15:40:26 <ed_> DS: with aria, connectors and nodes could have those categories
15:40:35 <ed_> ...or repeatnode, or documentnode
15:40:40 <ed_> ...for different flowcharts
15:41:36 <ed_> ...if you have a subway map
15:41:55 <ed_> ...and you're at a stop, only stops connecting from that stop would be navigatable
15:42:13 <ed_> ...so that the aria roles would define how navigation works
15:42:20 <ed_> ...even for non-AT
15:42:46 <ed_> AG: SCXML could also do something like change the colors of the stop etc
15:44:20 <ed_> Topic: 2.5D
15:44:35 <ed_> AG presents 2.5D/3D
16:35:20 <anthony> scribe: anthony
16:35:35 <anthony> scribeNick: anthony
16:35:37 <anthony> DS: I know you can do a flip with -1, -1 
16:35:51 <anthony> ... but it's not intuitive
16:36:05 <anthony> ... we should add something like Flip
16:37:45 <anthony> AG: Could do something like a flip about an angle perhaps?
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17:22:19 <ed_> ACTION: ed to add a 1.1 errata item for having xml:space on tspan elements to align with 1.2T (split out from ACTION-2048)
17:22:19 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2165 - Add a 1.1 errata item for having xml:space on tspan elements to align with 1.2T (split out from ACTION-2048) [on Erik Dahlström - due 2008-08-30].
17:26:36 <heycam> ACTION: Cameron to Make all references to TRs use dated URLs
17:26:36 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2166 - Make all references to TRs use dated URLs [on Cameron McCormack - due 2008-08-30].
17:31:15 <heycam> ACTION: Cameron to ensure lacuna values are specifically mentioned for all default attribute values
17:31:15 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2167 - Ensure lacuna values are specifically mentioned for all default attribute values [on Cameron McCormack - due 2008-08-30].
17:42:01 <Zakim> anthony, you asked to be reminded at this time that there is no charge for handsomeness
17:42:40 <anthony> Zakim, remind me in 1 hour that SVG IS TEH ROXOR
17:42:40 <Zakim> ok, anthony
17:43:25 <heycam> ACTION: Cameron to write some tests, propose some changes for http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008JulSep/0161.html
17:43:25 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2168 - Write some tests, propose some changes for http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2008JulSep/0161.html [on Cameron McCormack - due 2008-08-30].
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18:09:02 <heycam> <a href='http://www.w3.org/TR/blah'>BlahML</a>
18:09:24 <heycam> <a href='http://www.w3.org/TR/blah'><cite>BlahML</cite></a> [<a href='refs.html#ref-BLAH'>BLAH</a>]
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18:24:17 <anthony> Topic: Element Traversal
18:24:54 <anthony> DS: We should normatively reference element traversal
18:25:09 <anthony> ... because it'll be in REC by the time we go to LC
18:25:51 <anthony> RESOLUTION: We will use the Element Traversal specification instead of our interface
18:26:29 <anthony> ACTION: Erik to Take out current element traversal interface and a reference to the Element Traversal spec
18:26:29 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2169 - Take out current element traversal interface and a reference to the Element Traversal spec [on Erik Dahlström - due 2008-08-30].
18:42:41 <Zakim> anthony, you asked to be reminded at this time that SVG IS TEH ROXOR
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20:43:56 <heycam> <a href='http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG#sec-blah'><cite>Web Content Acc Guidelines</cite></a> ([<a href='refs.html#ref-WCAG'>WCAG</a>], section 4.3)
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